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I was on Lawrence O’Donnell’s show last night talking about the McConnell-Obama tax cut deal with Ezra Klein, Adam Green and Roger Hodge. Lawrence asked me if I agree with Ezra Klein’s analysis of the bill, including his assertion that it would act as economic stimulus. I answered:
HAMSHER: I think that there is no way you can argue with a straight face that an estate tax that is even better for rich people than anything George Bush ever had is in any way stimulative…
O’DONNELL: Not true, not true! The estate tax today is ZERO!
Lawrence got really upset and started yelling that the estate tax proposed in the Obama deal was 35%, which is better than it was starting in 2010.
I frankly wasn’t sure what he was talking about. When George Bush left office, the estate tax was at 45%. Lawrence was right, the estate tax was repealed in 2010 and it went to zero…but George Bush wasn’t president in 2010.
I assumed he must’ve misheard what I’d said. But Lawrence had already had fights with two of the other guests, so instead of getting bogged down arguing about who said what when, I continued on my point…this estate tax bill, put forward by Blanche Lincoln, was nothing more than a giveaway to the wealthy and it would not be stimulative.
Ezra came back and agreed with me — there was no way the estate tax could be considered stimulative.
When I got back home, I got quite a few emails from people who were familiar with the history of the estate tax, saying “you were right, under Bush it was more favorable than what Obama is proposing.”
But I got a few like this, from what Glenn Greenwald likes to call the “rancid cultist rump dead-enders”:
Jan Hamsher showed that you guys don’t have a clue! lol… ON MSNBC last night she talked about the Estate Tax under Bush being less friendly than the one Dems are proposing. I am an educator and I find it hilarious that you guys just put representatives on television that don’t know anything about what they are talking about. They are merely spewing out crap….
And this:
WOW
LAWRENCE MADE QUICK WORK OF YOU.
YOUR USUAL INACCURACIES WERE DISPENSED WITH FAST
AT LEAST GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT WHEN YOU GO ON TV TO EMBARRASS YOURSELF
YOU SMUG PROGRESSIVES? COULDN’T CARE LESS ABOUT POOR WORKING AMERICANS
OR ABOUT THE UNEMPLOYED
YOUR THEATRICAL MANNERISMS JUST HELP TO SPOTLIGHT YOUR LACK OF ANY CLASS OR INTEGRITY
TRY DOING SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE ..IT’S A GOOD DEAL HARDER THAN CARPING AND SNIPING AT THE PRESIDENT
OBAMA IS THE BEST PRESIDENT WE HAVE EVER HAD.
AND WILL BE FOR THE NEXT 6 YEARS.
I looked at the tape and figured most people who were watching closely could follow that Lawrence and I were talking apples and oranges, and certainly anyone who took the trouble to look things up would quickly figure it out…35% is better for the rich than the estate tax under Bush:
Prior to President Bush’s 2001 tax cuts, the estate tax levied a 55% maximum tax rate on all inherited assets above a $1 million exemption – including business assets passed on by a founder. Bush’s cuts set into motion a gradual phase-out of the estate tax; the exemption level has risen and the tax rate has been dropping since 2001, down to a planned 45% rate in 2009 with a $3.5 million exemption. Current law calls for the tax to be repealed for one year in 2010, but without congressional action to either reform the estate tax or make the tax cuts permanent, it will revert back to 2001 levels in 2011.
But some people have apparently let their anger at liberal bloggers get the better of them, and have surrendered their critical thinking abilities.
Well, better that they rant at home with their finger on the cap lock than in front of the DC press corp, I suppose.
188 Comments
Lawrence…
Being a skilled and knowledgeable former Senate staffer (as you are so fond of reminding your viewers), were you hiding the ball to protect your turf, to belittle anyone with the temerity of gracing your show with facts and logic… Or were you just being a schmuck and a liar?
Lean Forward… OK, now be still. This will only hurt for a sec.
•••
Thank you, Jane, for keeping your cool. I surely would not have.
Jane,
As I blogged about earlier, I could only stomach the first few minutes of the show. To watch Lawrence O’Donnell take the opportunity to lecture the four of you on the merits of Obama’s sellout was too much for me to bear. I still think Krugman’s analysis of Obama’s sellout is spot on. No matter what little trinkets may be in this sellout for the middle class, it is simply not worth the later economic damage that will result when Republicans hold up increasing the debt ceiling. The Republicans will then demand of Obama massive cuts in Social Security or Medicare, or else the Republicans will shutdown the government and destroy the American credit rating.
Obama will cave in then to “save” Americans taken hostage by the Republicans. Effective hostage taking only breeds more hostage taking. With a “hostage negotiator” like Obama, who needs enemies?
Still, kudos to you and the rest of the guests for putting up with O’Donnell’s bullshit.
Jane, Lawrence O’Donnell owes you an on-air apology and retraction – even if, as would appear to be the case, he merely made a mistake. But considering the source, I’m not holding my breath.
My wife and I gave up on O’Donnell after one show where he tried to bully a collection of four Tea Partiers all at once – interrupting them, talking over them, trying to refute them without letting them finish whenever they said anything he disagreed with. I didn’t think very highly of any of the Tea Partiers, but that didn’t excuse his performance that night, which was worthy of Fox News.
Just by chance, I turned to MyFDL and this post immediately after finishing Matt Taibbi’s Griftopia. The last paragraph of his main text (page 250) traces the root of the problem to inattention and intellectual laziness:
Matt’s horrifying book thus dovetails neatly with your experience on O’Donnell’s show.
How do you stand it, Jane? I’d be a nervous wreck after one month of what you’ve been doing for years.
No, this couldn’t possibly be true. ;-)
I’m constantly amazed how people can watch things like that program and come away with such totally different ideas about what was said and who made good points. The former I could put down to the limitations of human memory, but the other part, well, I think sometimes you have to want to see things a particular way…
This is one of the reasons I prefer to read transcripts, BTW. At least I can check my recollection against something without having to watch folks like O’Donnell prattling on.
I’ve been reading Yves Smith’s Naked Capitalism, about how economics has been practiced and presented in the news. It’s not pretty, either. Oh, a recent example in the afterword of that article. It’s as though reporters just find out what the opinions of the economists all their friends like to see what’s actually true, then find a lunatic to balance out the article (assuming they feel they even need balance.)
I was about to joke about whether O’Donnell was a aide to Sen. Moynihan, the walking-talking definition of turncoat sellouts…
…Moynihan worked for the Kennedy, LBJ, AND Nixon White Houses….
Sure enough, O’Donnell was a Moynihan staffer right when Moynihan sandbagged the Clinton Health Care plan for the many insurance companies that gave big money to Moynihan.
Hah. I remember sitting there thinking, do I:
1) Get sidetracked into another discussion
2) Finish my point, or
3) Have any idea what he’s talking about
If he had been less angry I might have chosen 1), but what the clip doesn’t show is that he’d just concluded fights with two other people on the panel, and I really didn’t want to be fodder for a third. So I chose 2), because you generally get about 20 seconds to make your point, and I honestly couldn’t answer “yes” to 3) at the moment.
I didn’t think it was a fight worth having, and I was frankly confused by his response and didn’t know what to say that wouldn’t potentially antagonize him further. I still look at it and think “how could I have made that transition smoother,” though. Not sure. Suggestions welcome.
Well, Jan, it could have been worse. At least he knew you were from Firedogbay and didn’t think he was debating Matt Bai. ;)
Indeed, and the other point is that the estate tax was set automatically to return to a $2 million exemption cap (for couples) with 55% above that taxed starting next year. All Obama had to do was continue the same inaction whereby he let it fall to 0% for the current year. But Obama and the Republicans couldn’t let that happen, so hence they make this massive slashing of what the inheritance tax was on course to automatically raise to incorporated into their “deal” (which to my mind, is even worse than the top %2 income tax cut extension). BTW, I’ve seen the O-bots spreading all over the place a similar propaganda “point” about it being “raised from zero” even trying to frame this “deal” on the inheritance tax as a “win” for Dems. Amazing how they don’t even try to get the facts and are so easily led.
Were those two people Adam Green and Roger Hodge, by any chance? Both of them broke into incredulous smiles (which I read as “I can’t believe he’s doing it again“) during O’Donnell’s rant at you. Ezra Klein, by contrast, kept a straight face (I think he was preparing his defense of you in real time). I wouldn’t've known about the previous two fights, but with O’Donnell’s track record, some previous such activity could be assumed by default, he picks fights so often.
Even with armchair leisure, I can’t figure out any way that you could have handled it any better without a positive answer to (3). It was good of Ezra to come to your defense. Both you and he refocused on the main issue: the lack of stimulative effect.
I’d like to see you on Keith or Rachel more often, instead of Lawrence O’Donnell (or Chris Matthews, who has similar issues).
Thanks Jane.
The things we know that just ain’t so…. Not sure if it’s attributed to Mark Twain or Will Rogers but such things sure do cause trouble.
Some people don’t like having thier narrative disrupted, no matter how provably false it may be. My brother in law is like that. And it’s not for a lack of education or experience. He’s approaching retirement, has a law degree and works for a fortune 500 company. Yet if we talk about Obama, in one sentence he says Obama is a socialist and in the next sentence he’s saying that Obama is a liberal fascist. And if you try to dig any deeper than that he gets mad… mad enough that it’s best to just change the subject. IMO, his biggest problem is that he comes home from work exausted and pops down and watches Fox News.
Many careers in media and academia are built upon things that just ain’t so. Change isn’t going to be easy.
For my part, I just give up when the show’s host keeps interrupting or talking over the guests. Really, why have guests if you’re just going to talk over them anyway? Those sorts of discussions always sounds like a mess, and if it’s a subject I’m not that familiar with, I’m quite likely to have heard nothing useful. I can’t even imagine what advice someone could give on rhetoric in such a situation.
For whatever that’s worth.
Jumping on the guest looks like a control freak syndrome – in this case, failing to make the connection between his mistake of calling the $0 estate tax “under Bush” – which it wasn’t – and Jane’s simple factual representation. Of course, the estate tax did go to $0 from w’s policies, but after he’d left office. A simple misspeaking taken to ballistic level.
Larry loves shrieking.
He tried to harpy Alan Grayson.
Jane you do a great job on that idiots show, you’re probably the only thing that kept me from kicking in my tv during his show.
O’donnel and the other fact free insiders are so self satisfied that they worked under (begins 3 minutes of name dropping), and call everyone else who isn’t a no talent lobbyist hack naive.
I can get through 5 minutes of his (and chris matthews) show before I’m forced to change the channel.
On a side note my cure for alcaholism is a drinking game where you’re only allowed a shot when O’donnel praises a liberal or attacks a conservative without blaming DA LIBRULZ!
Go on that plan and you’ll never drink a drop again.
Larry showed his true colors when he tried to deliver Caroline Kennedy as Senator for New York, on be half of Barak Obama.
Larry never met an American “aristocrat” he didn’t love. Groveler!
Not only were you right about the rate of the tax being friendlier under Bush, but get a load of that new exemption level. Democrats until recently I guess, were going to retroactively set it back for 2010, because what Republicans did by giving a one year hiatus from the tax was ludicrous. LO is either lying, clueless or trying to confuse the public. But, anyway, back to that exemption level…one million to 5 million! As someone recently said, this means if you inherited 5 million and one dollars, you would only pay 35 cents in federal income tax.
I mean LESS friendly under Bush.
Keith threw Lawrence under the bus the other night also.
Lawrence looked like a moron talking to Adam, Ezra, Jane, and Roger.
Keith said the WH had call him to discuss how great the OBAMA tax bill scam was and he told them it was piece of crap base on his special comment.
however at 10:00 Lawrence looked like a WH tool,
Lawrence is going to regret following the WH off the cliff.
Lawrence has better, at least communicate with Rachel and Keith, about how they feel about the WH tax bill scam. or he will suffer TWEETY CHRIS MATTHES fate.
I am pretty sure MSNBC tracks viewership daily
at 4:00 Dylan come on he probably generates a spike in viewership
at 5:00 Chris better know as TWEETY comes on and he generates a decline in viewership
(people like me swith the channel at 5:00 and watch ESPN, Really I learned I more about politics watching Sport center, than watching Hardball :)
Lawrence is headed for the same fate, he is becoming another hour that I can watch Sport Center
Jane, every time i think i CANNOT be more impressed by your steadiness and clear thinking under fire i see something like this. You are a treasure. Thank you.
Suggested response:
Lawrence, I said “better than anything George Bush ever had” which is true. The zero rate occurred in 2010, long after Bush left office. Even though that rate was a result of legislation signed by Bush, the fact is tax rates can be changed any time, and by 2010 the Democrats had had control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency for over a year to change it if they wanted to.
So, the estate tax rate is better than any that Bush had; but irregardless of that, it’s still in no way whatsoever stimulative for the economy. It’s nothing but a giveaway to the rich.
Of course I doubt there’s time for any such detail on the teebee machine.
I know it’s a nitpick, and I apologize, but since liberals are getting blamed for not getting their facts straight I just wanted to point this one so no one can claim you very accurate point about the amount of tax due is wrong simply because of the nitpick.
The person would not owe 35 cents in federal income tax. All inheritances are 100% tax free. The receipient never pays a penny on what he/she inherits.
The estate tax is a separate tax, actually paid by the estate. The estate fills out the form, and pays the tax, 35 cents in this instance (actually it would be zero, since all numbers for tax forms are rounded to the nearest dollar).
Sorry for the nitpick, just wanted to point out that minor difference. No one pays federal income taxes on inheritances.
Jane, you kick ass.
Larry, OTOH, kisses it.
Was, is, always will be an establishment Democratic Party hack, and we all shoulda known the fix was in on the Public Option when he was saying over and over a gain on Countdown that it would never happen.
I am traveling this week in Chicagoland. Just seeing Rahm on TV every night again is making me want to hurl, and I bring him up only by way of comparison: he and Larry are cut from the same cloth, and both are a scourge on the Left in this country.
Many of us here at MyFDL have been pushing hard on the “Primary Obama/New Progressive Alliance” effort. I’m thinking lately that it would be better to call it “Ditch the Democrats,” because it is time to draw a bright line between DINOs like these (our president included) and the few who still hold the ideals that made the party great.
Does anyone think these Larry O’Dumbass flashes of rage are a premeditated device designed to convey the sense that Larry is engaged and relevant as opposed to bought and paid for?
Miss Hamsher you kept your cool when there is no way I could have.I woulda jumped through the screen and bitch slapped him into last week.
“[U]nlike you, I am not a progressive. I am not a liberal who is so afraid of the word that I had to change my name to progressive. Liberals amuse me. I am a socialist. I live to the extreme left, the extreme left of you mere liberals!!! No someone call my car service and personal shopper!
That’s pretty cute. Dumb as shit…….but cute nontheless. Peace
“I assumed he must’ve misheard what I’d said. But Lawrence had already had fights with two of the other guests, so instead of getting bogged down arguing about who said what when, I continued on my point…”
Lawrence is far too busy these days trying to perfect his Moronic Indignation Persona to bother listening to, much less understand, what others are saying.
Anyone who argues in favor of passing the “Obama Compromise” (also referred to as the “Liars Compromise”) is working in favor of the oligarachy and against the interests of “we the people.” Obama and those (Democrats and Republicans) who support his tax cut cave-in to the wealthy and conservatives are a clear and present danger to what’s Left of our republic. (To Jane: The time has come to take out the “long knives” when appearing on any media outlet.) Peace
Tuesday’s show was cringe-inducing, but I think Larry’s screeching nasty performance last night was even worse.
What a dick that guy is.
The night you were on Jane and last night O’Donnell made a complete ass of himself. No one on needs to defend themselves. It was bad enough what he did to you but the personal abuse he dumped on Congressman Grayson is unforgivable. He needs to be fired.
Yet he still could not put one fact forward about how any of it would create jobs and help the economy.
GO, JANE!
Thanks Jane
There is no need for him to have theater. We already know he is a paid for shill.
Of course, the zeroing-out of the estate tax for 2010 was a temporary measure; it would have gone to a max. of 55% in 2011 with no action taken. What Obama “negotiated” was in fact a huge reduction given the much higher floor and lower maximum rate.
Socialist motto is: from each according to his ability; to each according to his needs. Clearly the rich have low abilities & high needs.
Maybe something like,
“It’s lack of stimulative effect and the fact that it is, in addition to the extension of tax cuts for the wealthy, JUST another gimme made by the already top 2% wage earners which will in effect create an EVEN deeper disparity between the rich and poor of this country. One of which, America has not seen since the great depression” Whatever….just a shot… Great job, Jane!
O’Donnell has been really unhinged the last two nights.
He may benefit from some meds.
I cannot abide Lawrence O’Donnell.
Thanks for putting yourself out there to the truth, Jane.
Those who write messages like the one you post have spent too long in the echo-chamber, rather than seeking their own information and thinking for themselves.
How LoDo can *endorse* running our nation into the ground financially perhaps speaks to his vast, great sense of condescending entitlement, which he is quick to display.
Keep up the good work. Keep speaking truth to power. Thank you.
“Was, is, always will be an establishment Democratic Party hack”
What he said.
It’s manufactured outrage. Notice how nice and calm he gets three seconds after his tirades.
Jane you rock !
You get mucho cred for going on these shows and putting up with idiots like o’donnell – i couldn’t handle it without swearing or getting riled up. you were cool and composed – the best response to ranting idiots. not sure you could’ve handled it better.
Keep up the great work and cheers to the all the FDL’ers that keep this place running smoothly !
Anyone with an estate actually subject to the tax who doesn’t do some planning to mitigate that obviously doesn’t care about it. Are there any numbers on what large estates actually pay, or is it even possible to get those with the way trusts and other shelters work?
For example, grandma pays cash for a home for Little Poopsie and puts her on title, joint tenants. Grandma dies, title passes without being reflected in the probate of her estate.
You may be right.
Suggest a long, long, long, long, long, long vacation taken a far, far, far, far, far, far away.
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Jane Hamsher:
First off, you are to be commended for keepin’ any composure with that condescending, slither-lipped shill, in fact most of the audience for O’Donnell’s show are quite aware of where this corporate Clintonista is comin’ from and why he has been put in the prime time spot in order to push back the Keith and Rachel re-runs. You have been in with much tougher opponents, Sister Jane, so I can’t believe you will let a few lunatic IED’s inside your perimeter. Your role every time you get face time with the network “big boys” is to do what you have been doin’ all along: tell the truth, don’t back down and expose the lyin’ shills for what they are…and do it all in a woman’s voice.
I was disappointed with Brother Ezra but you clearly carried the day by not gettin’ rattled and lettin’ O’Donnell expose himself for the corporatist huckster that he is. Now can you get some time in Sister Rachel’s space, I think that you can strengthen your position as a legitimate political thinker as well as activist if you were to get a couple a sessions in with Maddow and some of her usual suspects.
But don’t worry about how you came off or about a little lunatic hate-mail…you were great, dear and I’m glad I caught it ‘cuz I don’t usually watch O’Donnell’s organ grinder schitck.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE BATTLE AIN’T OVER ‘TIL THEY PUT US ALL AWAY!!
Lawrence O’Donnell must be taking lessons from Chris Matthews. When you are wrong (or at the very least, spinning like a top) just YELL LOUDER. He did it again last night with Rep. Alan Grayson.
Well, according to Congress it raised $23.1 billion in 1998, so not everyone was dodging it.
It’s my impression that KO and RM probably have a more radically progressive audience than LOD, so limiting Jane’s appearances would be more preaching to the choir. I thinks it more affective to get the facts and truths out to a wider audience.
Also, I don’t think it’s time to get out the long knives. That might mean losing the opportunity to speak at all. Remember what happened when March said bl*w j*b.
“But some people have apparently let their anger at liberal bloggers get the better of them, and have surrendered their critical thinking abilities.”
I would suggest that the people whose emails are exampled in your post had no critical thinking abilities to surrender.
Citizen rmwarnick:
O’Donnell is the “upscale” Tweety Mathews…Mathews is losin’ audience and doesn’t attract the same folks that Keith and Rachel do so they have advanced O’Donnell into that slot to push back the Keith-Rachel re-runs and try and break damp down their effectiveness.
Oops. I meant Marcy.
awwww U got hate mail! Good for you! You were entirely correct. O’Donnell was as usual using a straw man. This year was the ONLY year in the past century when there was a zero estate tax. He’s a shithead for making it sound as if that was long-standing policy.
House members are Very Very aware of how disgusting & immoral the estate-tax giveaway would be. They know Obama is asking them to take estate-tax rates back to 1931 levels, when the plutocrats still ruled the world (the last time). Bloomberg covered this very thoroughly but naturally NYT ignored the estate-tax in its editorial and you won’t find it covered in their political pages.
Jane, as a longtime fan and follower (since early blogspot days), I have taken immense solace from watching you blossom as a voice in the wilderness and can say that you competently hold your own in this arena. I’m grateful for having this forum of idea exchange and I hope that it provides you with even more ability to stand up for truth. The corporate tv media does not provide a medium that lends itself well to thoughtful in-depth policy discussion but your efforts are not in vain. Regarding LoDo and Mathews, I don’t waste my time watching them (and I’d fear for my TV were I to watch). Ed, I do watch and wish he’d quit believing in the myth of helping small business, otherwise I like his style. Olbermann and Rachel do their best and sometimes hit one out of the park. It’s mostly preaching to the choir for me but I take some comfort in knowing that somebody watching might be transformed. I have nothing but respect for what you do, Jane. You are an inspiration in times of despair… Thanks.
Cost of extending unemployment benefits for one year: $33 billion.
Average annual receipt from federal estate tax*: @$22 billion.
*for ten years prior to 2010.
And the Repukes want to “pay for” the extension. Well, restore the former rates and limits and you’ll come damned close.
You would think that some of these asshole TV hosts who are supposedly on our side might acknowledge these types of ironies instead of engaging in hippie punching for fun and profit.
Ezra wasn’t hired by the Post as a mouthpiece for the oligarchy because he isn’t more interested in money that he is the ‘truth’. Peace
Jane, this is just an aside but I had the show on the other night and was listening while doing some computer work. When O’Donnell started yelling and talking over everyone, my husband suddenly bellowed from upstairs “Who in the hell is watching Fox on in this house?!”
You did good.
Larry, you are forgetting what happens if we do NOTHING. NOTHING would be better than what the WH is asking us to do. NOTHING would mean estate taxes would go back to their long-term settled rate of 55% and only the first million or so would be exempted. Obama wants us to give away 20% on estate taxes and exempt Ten Million Bucks per couple. How is that Democratic?
Lawrence’s temper questioning guests doesn’t illuminate the subject. I watched him lose it at Grayson. He ended up being mad at things that didn’t illuminate his substantive points.
The anger must be subordinate to the rhetoric not ahead of it for it to illuminate.
Maddow keeps her temper locked down. Olbermann uses his tempter to fuel his rhetorical style. Lawrence wants to bring his inside knowledge to bear but hasn’t figured out how.
In the meantime, we debate this tax deal. I was appalled when I first heard it. To the extent our objections don’t characterize Obama’s character or toughness but rather the substance of the deal and its implications, the better for liberals going forward. If you want to lead, and you do (by you I mean all of us) then frame your arguments in terms that they will be well received by liberals across the spectrum.
On the tax deal, I don’t think there’s an easy answer. One thing I come back to is that giving Rethugs a win when they took hostages seems like a VERY BAD idea.
If the pieces of the deal that are most objectionable could be turned into effective stim, then I think we’ll have foudn a path forward.
Keep in mind that the “Repukes,” as you call them, don’t have enough votes in either the House or the Senate to pass the “Obama Compromise” without massive Democratic support. There is only one political party in the United States and it is owned by the oligarchy. Peace
The other team has no way to win based upon your superior knowledge of the facts and their inferior choices (tax cuts for the rich and the dead rich). So they revert to irrational behavior and yelling. Add this to your other list of their shenanigans: name-calling, never addressing the substance of your argument , and repeating the talking points.
They’re paid to hippe-punch by the Oligarchs, of course, who want to deep-six the truth or other ironies behind the dull-witted shouting of dullards & tools like Tweety & LoDo.
I grew up on welfare in Holyoke Massachusetts, and left in ’78 for Boston. A guy who made it STAFFER for a New York Senator – if the job wasn’t handed to him cuz he’s buffington-humpington XXVVXX, then he learned how to go along to get along
(hey! wouldn’t that define clinton and 0bummer!!)
of course he needs to toady up to the casa blanca with their f’king lies.
by the way – exra klien looks like the smug yuppie f’k that he is.
robert murphy
seattle
I have never been a fan of Lawrence O’Donnell since he first started appearing on MSNBC and I’m still no fan and rarely watch his program. O’Donnell is like a young version of Chris Matthews. He thinks his DC experience makes him the ultimate authority but the truth is that his DC experience is the problem. He is so thoroughly imbued with the “insider” perspective, his sympathies are so jaundiced by his exposure to the villagers, and his love of the system and the status quo is quite evident at all times. His DC experience is what makes him so willing to accept rotten deals like this latest Republican proposal of Obama’s. His DC experience is what makes him so willing to accept horrendously cynical political manuevering (like Obama’s Republican proposal this week)because the value system of people in Washington is immune from moral questions or questions of plain fairness or the welfare of the common man and woman. What’s important to them is the game and who winds this round. They cheer for our team because it is out ream not, as Keith Olberman reminded us in his special comment the other night that we support principles, not individuals. Jane, you are anathema to those who think like O’Donnel does because you aren’t merely a cheerleader. You have actual principles that you value. They don’t and it upsets them that you insist on upsetting the game by including them and not giving up on them. Keep it up baby! We need your voice, your consicence and your strength!
There is NEVER too much exposure for legitimate progressive activists, in fact, one of the most important roles for Brother Keith and Sister Rachel is to build and extend their audience by providing as much face time as possible to those who could be marginalized by repeated exposure on Tweety and/or O’Donnell. The synergy bewteen KO-RM and folks like Citizen Hamsher is, in the end, to expand the base of legitimate progressive alternatives to corporate politics.
its Jane
chrislhayes : !!! RT @markos: RT @benpolitico: House Democratic caucus, a Hill staffer emails, just voted to reject the tax deal. (a minute ago)
or maybe Rusty1776 was just mocking the hate mail
“The man who listens to Reason is lost: Reason enslaves all whose minds are not strong enough to master her.” G.B. Shaw Ergo: Obama has lost his mind. Peace
Last night was worse. It inspired me to write “Lawrence O’Donnell Doesn’t Get The Last Word, Fortunately” this morning.
Oh, I agree. I didn’t mean to imply that she shouldn’t go on KO or RM, but was trying to emphasize that she should continue to go on LOD or any other show to speak The Word. Thanks for allowing me to clarify.
LOaDonnell loses his composure frequently, but mostly toward the left like GG and Jane. Your verbal response was fine. I would suggest a cleansing of the palate before you responded with a slight giggle and eyeroll. Not all responses are verbal.
Obviously it generates revenue or it wouldn’t be an issue at all, but is there an estimate of the effective rate on ostensibly large estates?
yes it was startling after listening to Keith’s special rant to hear O’Donnell launch right into hectoring & taunting everybody who had common sense objections to paying off the filthy rich. I don’t watch the shows since I cut way back on cable, but I listen to the Sirius radio feed of MSNBC. O’Donnell’s frantic desperation was palpable. He knew he was bullshitting.
Hey Robert, Ho-yoke is near Amerst, silent h as you know. Lawrence grew up in a working class family in Dorchester, right, then off to Harvard then law school. Don’t know how he got his Hill job but he had the education. When I hear his ‘angry voice’ I imagine that’s how his Dad sounded (overbearing) when he was pissed at Lawrence for fucking-up.
Jane,
If at all possible, I’d appreciate a little advance notice before you’re going to be on LoDo’s show. Otherwise, I’m tuning him out.
Must investigate. Looks promising!
what duncan said. $23 billion a year. nobody cares what specific impact is on biggest estates compared to merely filthy stinking rich estates. CBO and other scoring entities assess the estate-tax giveaway in the WH deal will cost $23 billion. E.g., NYT Economix blog from Tuesday.
What the hell is so wrong with that motto anyway???
Why the hell are Americans so scared of a motto like that?
Or are they?
that’s $23 Billion Per Year.
So the caps lock key exists to emphasize the fact that “smug progressives” are not demonstrating the proper amount of deference toward those in power, then? I’m glad someone finally cleared that up for me. Now, if somebody can please straighten me out on the F12 key, I’ll be totally squared away.
I missed this the other night as I was too distraught to watch. Not to mention that though over the years O’Donnell has given nice 3 minute explanations of things, I have never been able to handle his delivery for any longer than that. He does have a very high opinion of himself, too.
Jane came off well. I’m glad that there were people there to express their viewpoint countering O’Donnell’s cheerleading.
The word we should use is not hostage but extortion. For the GOP will continue to come back for more and more. Obama had little power this week, and yet he still doesn’t get it that in 2011 he’ll have far less, and little in the way of support from those he chose to chastise when they disagreed with him.
OOO! “slither lipped shill” I love it and I am stealing it for future use….
Wow Jane. You shouldn’t have given Gibby your email address. ;)
I think he wants to be the Rick Santelli of the center-left.
As several commenters have mentioned, O’Donnell went after Grayson last night and was over the top there as well–not in his substantive disagreement, but in his personal slights of/to Grayson. O’Donnell is angry towards the left for multiple reasons, I think, and needs to come to grips with that, for his own sake. That angry middle-aged whiteman shit will eat you up if one is not careful…
Well, Lawrence needed a new job after his shameless and futile shilling for Caroline Kennedy as NY Senator. So he was for hire to the next elite bidder.
And I was tryin’ to say that too much exposure with folks like O’Donnell risks bein’ marginalized and pigeon-holed as one of the “loony lefties”…in fact Maddow’s show is the most important prime time incubator for growing the progressive alternative politics and exposure on her show innoculates against contamination by viruses like O’Donnell.
Jane, your demeanor could not be better suited to match the breathless hysteria of O’Donnell. LD is unraveling before our eyes, because his gig as WH errand boy just got a lot less satisfying.
I didn’t him last night but I wondered what he had in his arsenal since he didn’t have the ol’ “I-worked-in-Congress-and-you-didn’t-so’stfu”.
Lawrence O’Donnell becomes unhinged while interviewing Rep. Alan Grayson. O’Donnell totally loses his point when he turns into Bill Oreilly. It happens around 8:15 minutes into the clip.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3096434/#40579828
I just think O’Donnell became a drama queen rather than an in-depth interviewer during his out of hand attack of Rep. Grayson.
duncan this is good stuff. NYT Econmix blog actually reported the estate-tax bonus will cost $23B per year while the UI extension costs $56B for the one year. Economix didn’t draw obvious conclusion you are basically correct: $46B over two years from filthy rich estates would mostly but not completely cover the $56B for UI extension. Extra $10B could come from inching up the income tax rate on jillionaires by necessary fraction of a percent.
O’Donnell loses his composure because he’s actually been in the room when negotiations were taking place. Mere mortals should never dare to challenge that sort of authority.
With the several thousand years of legislative experience between O’Donnell and Matthews, the whole enchilada should be turned over to them, forthwith. Yeah…they’ll fix this shit up in a Dee Cee minute…
I am fascinated by Lawrence O’Donnell’s continuing anger, apparently brought on by being challenged or not having a “guest” agree with him in every way. [Or, when he goes into one of his rants before a guest even says anything, by knowing that said guest doesn't agree with him.]
Kinda reminds me of a certain president I know.
BTW, I hope everyone here is writing to MSNBC to complain about O’Donnell: not necessarily about his lunatic views, but more about his extreme rudeness, and how this doesn’t provide useful tv.
Either O’Donnell is very angry at the left for unknown reasons or he has a very tiny penis…I cannot fathom any other reasons for his seemingly baseless anger.
didn’t O’Donnell recently claim that he was a socialist or omething akin?
Sounds like he will spout any mistruths to protect the Obama Administration. Sorta like FAUX.
Coming out of denial (that this Administration has any real regard/care for the middle class) is very painful, and very slow for some.
Most times Obama opens his mouth now, he seems self-congratulatory, and seems to believe he’s doing great things. But he’s not, and he’s not hearing our pain and responding to it. But, he sure can hear the Republicans.
I swear these New Dems, Blue Dogs, neo-liberals, whatever they call themselves, are just primarily protecting their own rich asses and those like them.
Yes, I think it’s time for MSNBC to admit that by giving him his own show, they gave him more credit than he was due. As described above, my wife and I had given up on him long before this incident with Jane. They need to replace him (and Chris Matthews). But with who?
My first thought was “I wonder how Jane would do as host of her own show?” That wouldn’t really make a great deal of sense – Jane’s overcommitted enough already, and hosting a TV show wouldn’t be the best use of her time – but it was fun to imagine.
Any suggestions as to who Lawrence O’Donnell’s replacement should be, for real? Is there anyone on Firedoglake who has experience on TV or radio (other than Jane herself)?
no way. only available from Twitter?
I think I see what you’re saying. More bang for the buck for progressive politics. An interesting way to look at it. An organized media agenda from the DFHs? That’s something we’ve been needing for a long time. Thanks for explaining, Norske.
Heh, that’s hilarious AND sweet . . . love it!
Thanks flor sharing it . . .
And thanks Mz. Hamsher for doing what you did on LaDo so we don’t have to!
*G*
I’ll echo all the comments above in praise of your ongoing efforts to speak proggy truth . . . and yeah, watching you grow over the years whilst dueling Veal In The Pen has been a joy . . .
So, thanks!
“Now I might be a socialist and an in ideal world I’d get single payer and tax the rich but this is the real world so we bail out insurers and give the rich the right of prima nocti”
Larry O’douche paraphrased.
Jane, it might be useful to point out that Blanche Lincoln, who “proposed” this estate tax sell-out, represents Arkansas, home of Wal-Mart/the Walton family.
Perhaps they have an interest in this issue? /s
Yeah, well Lanny Davis told Ed Shultz he was a progressive. Yeah and I’m the pope.
Yes,now that Rachel Maddow has apparently jumped ship,it’s O’Donnell’s responsibility to distract & enable the WH.
But folks we are missing the larger point on why the supposedly socialist O’Donnell is defending this give away to the super wealthy.
O’Donnell is no paycheck to paycheck “socialist”.Lawerence O’Donnell is a very wealthy man,he is merely defending the giveaway to himself & his class.
TPM says it was only non-binding voice vote in the caucus and Pelosi has not shown any inclination to refuse to put the deal on the House floor.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/house-dems-vote-no-confidence-in-obama-tax-plan.php
Heh! Your Highness!
Contessa now reporting the Dems say no deal and intend to redo the bill.
There will BE no effective stim . . . I think that was clear from day one when Wall St. was favored over Main St.
We The People are being herded into a corral with rapidly diminishing standards of living and existence . . . and it’s planned and deliberate.
That’s why the Wikileakin issue is so huge . . . people all over the world are pushing back against the oligarchs . . . hackers. Outraged people. Progressives.
In many ways, the USA is WAYYYYYYY more corporate fascist gone than other countries or regions . . . we got ourselves a full fledged class war goin on.
N the wikileakers and keyboard hackin folks are fighting for us all, bless them.
So far, we the people are losing badly, but the good news is that more and more people are being outraged about the diminishing quality of life and existence.
That’s a good thing. It’s a waking beast after a long, long hibernation, and it’s going global that waking beast . . .
Gus Lubin, Business Inisder:
“Remember just days ago Schwarzenegger declared a fiscal emergency to deal with a $26 billion gap. Governor-elect Jerry Brown announced the new estimate last night.
“The reason for the jump is Obama’s tax deal, specifically the establishment of a 35 percent estate tax — the lowest since 1931 — plus exemptions. California will lose $2.7 billion in this arrangement.”
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/california-28-billion-estate-tax-2010-12#ixzz17dRb0Vfi
Thanks, Obama.
The same might be said for a certain president we have.
Actually, I am quite curious at what it is/was that so ticked Obama off.
Is it long-simmering anger at the left [stoked, probably, by his staff -- "look at how hard you're working and those ingrates don't appreciate you. Poor, poor you!!"]
Was it some particular incident close in time to the press conference? He + Biden + McConnell cooked this whole thing up in advance, so there was no opportunity for DFHs to cause “problems” in that “negotiation.”
What’s bugging him?
Yes, and yet no one is pointing this out. They let the right create their endless stream of bullshit and are only concerned with punching home the, “best deal he could get; think of how awful it would be otherwise” meme.
Meanwhile, the tighty righties are so confident they’re actually challenging people who suggest that tax cuts need to be accounted for.
The WH has really gone overboard the last few days and is pulling out all the stops and the paid for stooges to try and browbeat everyone into accepting this latest in a long line of shit tacos it presents us to us as the “best” deal they could get from the bosses. ( their’s and our bosses apparently.) What’s clear now is that’s really all we have here is a bunch of paid for Corporatist shills in our faces telling us their the best we’re ever going to see, so suck it up or look over across the aisle at the really nasty crew the bosses have waiting to deal with you and yours. Sobering to say the least. What are we going to do about this folks?
***”Most times Obama opens his mouth now, he seems self-congratulatory, and seems to believe he’s doing great things”***
There was an interesting diary up here a day or two ago in which the author dissected Obama’s speech on the tax deal, noting how he constantly referred to “I” and “me,” not to “we.”
It’s called something like “the two most interesting sentences in Obama’s statement.” You could probably find it with a search.
It’s well worth a read.
I think you have a point about marginalization and framing. But mainly, I think O’Donnell is so abusive to his guests (in general – including rightwing Tea Partiers, not just Jane) that it’s questionable whether he should be rewarded by repeated appearances. It’s the same principle as hosts drawing the line with certain guests. Rachel is famous for her tolerance toward nutty guests, but I don’t think she’ll be inviting Art Robinson back anytime soon.
The 2nd act of the “kabuki theater” on the hill is my guess. The third act is the capitulation scene where they cave for crumbs and tell the rest of us via ED S. and the rest that it’s the very best they can do, Merry X-mas. So ends Change and Hope. I think we need a really good douche in DC and it has to start locally.
I didn’t think it was a fight worth having, and I was frankly confused by his response and didn’t know what to say that wouldn’t potentially antagonize him further. I still look at it and think “how could I have made that transition smoother,” though. Not sure. Suggestions welcome.
Its not about facts its about dominance its Lizard Brain crap he has to try and win not with facts but by fighting everyone.
The guy gots a tv show he has staff they can research the facts as well as anyone he has no excuse to have the wrong facts.
So why does he have the wrong facts propaganda, he’s selling us something.
Forget worrying about antagonizing him he wanted this fight.
My idea let him talk a bit let him bury himself deeper pick one point thats wrong and call him a liar.
Ask him how can he be wrong on the facts with the entire MSNBC/NBC news research staff researching facts for him and every other Network talking head covering this debate.
Point out to him that when the Mainstream Media does things like supports tax cuts for the rich with lies pulled out of their ass people stop watching the media.
Pick an issue any issue the media gives the rich point of view more coverage and never calls them when they lie about facts.
Heck most days the morning blog threads are all about laughing at media lies we google every statement’s facts and bring up links to challenge them.
Also any network any show that has racist, anti immigrant Pat Buchanan Nazi defender big supporter of Reagan’s Nun killing death squads in South America (he wrote the I’m a Contra too speech for Reagan) on has problems.
Any political party that has him has problems.
Interesting slip. Yes, Keith channels his inner demons into constructive purposes!
Jane:
You’ve got more balls than many rooms full of Obamas and O’Donnells!
Don’t let O’Donnell bother you – he’s just kissing the a$$ of the establishment like he always does. He really can’t believe that we, the base of the Democratic Party, aren’t lapping up Obama’s latest Corporate flavored excrement with the same glee that he does.
O’Donnell =’s plutocrat and the first rule of the plutocracy is do no harm to fellow plutocrats.
thanx jane for taking all that crap ! you did great!
Interesting – now that you mention it, there is a certain similarity between Little O and Big O.
but the other part, well, I think sometimes you have to want to see things a particular way…
Agreed lizards want to believe whatever would make the group happy. Notice that unlike us they didn’t have any links to their supposed facts criticizing Jane.
I am really surprised that Lizards watch Lawrence who are they Obama bots or GOPers or was this a planned attack have Lawrence appear top dog against us and then try and claim victory with just a bad attitude and made up facts?
Lizards play follow the Leader
clearly, what he learned in Cambridge was how to get along to go along – hannity, o’reilly …
there is a loooooooooooooooong history of Irish $ell out$ working for the man to f’k over those they left behind.
rmm.
it was janeyresick (sp?)
Odonnell was notorious for not making the argument he could and should ahve when he was making the guest circuit on other peoples shows. Now that he has his own show he refuses to let anyone spit out a complete sentence, much less an entire argument. I almost feel lawrences pain. He is a “rump dead ender”, and so are all of us who arent sitting on the 1% throne. His country is, at last, becoming a full blown capitalist oligarchy, and hes holding onto shards of the past, the democratic party and the politics he understands, because he cant see or face reality. Or maybe he is just one more paid liar. A “contractor” in the private psych-war mercenary army we call “the press”.
that was just the House Dems caucus voice vote which TPM broke around 11:45 am today:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/house-dems-vote-no-confidence-in-obama-tax-plan.php
Pelosi is reported at same link as being noncommittal about whether she will bring bill to the floor. Voice votes in caucuses are the least binding most kabuki-esque feature available to disgruntled members. What are they saying in their one-minute speeches on the floor?
Lawrence O’Donnell still has a huge crush on Obama.
I am very grateful for people like you, Jane, and Glenn Greenwald whose loyalty is to principles and not to politicians.
Reduction of the estate tax would have a small stimulative impact.
It would not be immediate and would be horribly inefficient.
So, generally speaking, in the context of a cable news show give and take, Jane was correct.
Maybe he has a corrections section/slot on an upcoming show he needs to fill… where he’ll come on and make corrections. ;)
Or maybe he’s been told he needs a little more yelling in his presentation by whoever makes those recommendations…
or maybe both.
You were great as ever Jane and even the tv people need educating, not just their audience.
I have to admit that five seconds into the piece I turned down the volume whenever LoD started talking. He is an oaf in veal pen clothing.
Here’s the Zandi analysis from Economix:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/08/how-stimulating-is-the-tax-cut-jobless-benefit-deal-part-ii/
I watched it, and I think you did great. He is a one-way mouthpiece that gets so stirred up, sometimes I think his head is going to explode…hard to watch.
Sorry I missed it last night, but me and my wife decided to start tivoing Racheal and watching her at 1 am instead of the Larry the blue dog who was planted in the 10 pm time slot to start msnbc transition to the center right.
I finally dropped in links to Zandi’s analysis on Economix down below. I switched over to DDay’s thread from 8:57:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/12/09/house-democrats-reject-tax-cut-deal-in-its-current-form/
Meanwhile, as for that report the WH promised would be issued by Goolsbee’s CEA? Crickets …….
http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/cea/factsheets-reports
Jane, you did fine. As you generally do these days in all your TV appearances.
My suggestion to you and Glenn and Cenk and other progressive voices that handle this cable tv show medium so well is to simply refuse invitations to LoDo’s show. I know opportunities to get the progressive word out to a larger audience are at a premium, but nonetheless, the best thing progressives can do is to contribute to the demise of LoDo’s show by not watching it, and not appearing on it.
LoDo is damned near impossible for me to watch. After about 30 seconds I want to jump through the TV and slap him. And he’s certainly not swaying anyone not already in the choir. His arrogance is not only unmatched, it’s totally unfounded. He’s wrong or misinformed more often than not. This is not the first time he’s falsely refuted his guests–he seems to be so desparate to get ratings to make a go of his new show that his unimaginitive brain immediately defaults to spectacle conflict.
MSNBC cannot cancel O’Donnell soon enough. Why they haven’t offered Cenk a contract yet is beyond me. Rachel and Keith are okay, but Dylan is too long-winded even if his heart is in the right place, and O’Donnell is patently unfit for the role.
This has been a devastating week for progressives on so many fronts. You and Glenn and Cenk are helping a lot of us out here keep our sanity in the midst of all the absurdity. Thanks for soldiering on.
Both Jane and Lawrence are right; the 0 estate tax is a function of the Bush era tax cuts and Democratic inaction in 2009
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2010/01/01/as_estate_tax_drops_to_zero_congress_should_take_action/
Both Jane and Lawrence are right; the 0 estate tax is a function of the Bush era tax cuts and Democratic inaction in 2009
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2010/01/01/as_estate_tax_drops_to_zero_congress_should_take_action/
The more you watch LoD the more you learn.
Olbermann said on his show that he was contacted by officials in the administration and asked to spin the tax bill in a good light. He refused, but it looks like they had better luck with Larry O.
I would have mocked David Axelrod’s e-mail to her too, but he doesn’t deserve any attention at all.
That link no longer works. Linking directly to the corporate news sites almost never works after a day or two. That evidently is intentional. Their bullshit stinks so badly they clearly do not want people linking to it.
Can you find it and link to it some other way? I’d love to see that.
Yeah, that has to be about the strangest outburst we’ve seen in a long time. What the fuck was he saying? What could he possibly mean by “socialist”? There is NOBODY from the extreme left on the corporate news.
There is almost nobody on the corporate news whose indignation can be taken seriously anymore. Ratigan perhaps. Don’t know who else. Hatred of the other and of self seems to be endemic on corporate news. Given the hypocritical craven cupidity of it all, don’t know how it could be otherwise.
Good diary title, Jane.
We need to put the euphemisms away and call all this what it is.
And keep doing it. Everywhere.
I hope you’ve written to MSNBC to share your views.
They need to hear from all of us. [Not that they’ll “listen,” but numbers of letters from outraged, “I’m not watching that any more” viewers do have an impact.
Maybe I’m missing something Mr.President, but when did it become ok for “Americans” to take other Americans “hostage” so that you feel you have to negotiate losing something from the hostages to the hostage takers?
Wouldn’t ransom be a better term to believe in?
And who will be the next group of hostages? You’ve already sold out the seniors and the unemployed. How about the physical and mentally challenged? Think of the money the Republicans could glean from you to give to them.
How about children? Already you’re caving on lunches like you did on health care.
The people will negotiate with hostage takers from both sides in 2012 by casting votes or staying home. Enjoy your presidency while you can. Help those who least need the help. Tell yourself in your own little troubled world you did the best you could while you explain to your well-off children that other children must suffer because you allow Americans to take other Americans hostage. The ransom the public will pay in 2012 will be with votes not dollars.
Republicans, and by implication you, are fools. And who is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who follows the fools?
Jane – you’d be better served going on Democracy Now and only on Democracy Now.. 5 minutes of their airtime is more informative than 24 hours of MSNBC in terms of news. Maybe if there was a collective boycott of bullshit mainstream media like MSNBC, (olberman and maddow included) and an effort to support and promote Democracy Now, we could truly bring in a new era of online media, and take the liberal blogosphere into the next stage. MSNBC is hollow empty political sports reporting, theres no truth at all to it, only the lure of faux-credibility it offers pundits that appear on it. Lawrence only had you on because he wanted to shout you down and confront you and the other guests with that sycophant Ezra Klein there to reassure him that this is good policy. I was disgusted.
Concur. I can’t believe that Grayson didn’t lose it! I have rarely, if ever seen such disrespect shown for a US Congressperson. LO is a true moron, and as they say, true morons are rare…
Jane, you are right. This tax-bill flies in the face of sanity.
The Tea-partiers who have been strangely silent on the massive addition to the National debt, as that is where it goes without passing GO. They think of it only as a “tax-cut” pretending it has nothing to do with the debt.
Now they want to up the exemption to $8 million.
Those who live in Never-Never land you should ignore Jane. We know they haven’t a clue about which they speak. Moreover, most could care less about 98% of Americans, and it is shows by Lawrence and Chris Matthews who have been pushing this cut for the millionaires, claiming the “Sky is Falling!” You got your shot in and it hit a nerve. Good for you!
I must disagree! IMHO Jane is far and away our best spokesperson. Whatever our opinion of the messenger, we need Jane to get her calm, measured, informed eloquence in front of as many viewers as possible. While I hold Amy Goodman and DN in the highest regard, we must admit that the target audience simply isn’t to be found there.
In fact, even MSNBC is preaching to to the choir. I am not advocating Faux News appearances, far from it. But the more appearances on the other networks, the better. We need to put Jane and other FDL luminaries, such as Emptywheel, who we know shall studiously avoid even thinking “blowjob” (*g*) and allow them to speak to the topic du jour.
Dear Jane
Here’s something to keep in mind. There was a cancer researcher once, Judah Volkman, M.D., who won the Nobel Prize. People had not always supported his efforts and freqently told him he was going about his work all wrong. Somebody asked him what it was like to carry on in the face of so much antagonism and he said, ‘That’s OK. You can always tell who the leaders are. They’re the people with arrows in their ass.’
Remember when Larry “You’ve never been in the room when legislation was written, I have” O’Donnell stated absolutely and unequivocally that the health care bill would not pass?
Last night he made the same type of statement, when he declared that this bill will pass, and that liberals weren’t serious about opposing it and would come on board. I fear he’s right, but good lord he’s a pompous, smug, self-satisfied jerk. He also dissed Bernie Sanders by stating that “some” on the Liberal side were claiming, “falsely, I think” that they will filibuster.
I wanted to send the clip to every House member for motivation to stand their ground.
Finally had a chance to watch this. Bastard tried to bully/bluster you into bewildered silence and you STILL ate his lunch.
Btw, I think now that Obama’s mask is fully off, he himself is going to prove quite vicious going forward.
Why Jane or any other right thinking progressive wastes their time going on this imbecile’s show is beyond me. I’d rather watch Tweety, Scarborough or even Shep Smith before I tune in the MSNBC equivalent of the “Oracle of Delphi”!
I wouldn’t assume that people watching television are using critical thinking skills. If they were, Fox “News” would not be on the air. But, your appearances in which you try to “enlighten” the masses are appreciated.
If you pay attention to the visual presentations of the segments from Tues and last night, the strategy is obvious: Larry is Paul Lynde. Take Jane Hamsher to block.
By the way Jane, that was a classic case of shooting the messenger. Why are these people pushing for the richest Americans a cut that will define the presidential race in 2012 and Obama won’t be able to do anything but extend it again, or lose. And why only an extension for 13 months for the unemployed and Nada for the 99R’s!
I would happily pay higher taxes for the end of the Bush cuts period and the passage of a bill giving unemployment to those who’s lives have been ruined by Bush and are going to get Scrooged by Obama and the Republicans.
Yes, replace O’Donnell with Grayson! He’d make a very good talk show host – he’s knowledgeable, doesn’t take the bait, and dish it out when needed.
Here is the link to the Main MSNBC video webpage. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3096434/
For me it is a slow loading site but when it does open, there is a selection area of MSNBC shows on the left side of the main video.
Select “The Last Word”. Then fast forward to around 8:15 mark.
I hope this new link works for you.
Late to the party – and, yeah, I’ve already quit watching Larry’s show, with rare exceptions. Had I known Jane would be on, might have watched through her segment.
Still, this is my favorite comment on this thread: “Take Jane Hamsher to block.”
I haven’t watched Lawrence’s show much but the past two nights he looks like he needs some serious psychiatric meds! Surely, an anger management class might also help. But to harp and harp on the single issue he takes ownership of and push it down everyone’s throat ad nauseum makes him look like a fool. He jammed things down the throat of everyone on the panel and, frankly, watching this madman’s nightly ‘screed’ of egomaniacal nonsense doesn’t make for pleasant dreams.
This guy’s show won’t be around long if he doesn’t moderate his unbelievable ego somewhat. He’s a disaster. Notice the way he always directs every discussion in order to remind everyone about how well he knows congressional processes? Just because this ‘has been’ served in political office previously does not mean that he’s an instant expert in all things political.
Lawrence needs a good dose of humility and needs to recognize that his ‘personal style’ of attacking people is not endearing him to the american people one iota. In fact, I don’t see his show lasting another 3 months. His numbers are in the tank now and will continue to circle the commode…..and deservedly so.
When I observe Lawrence O’Donnell, the only discriptive adjective which jumps quickly to mind is “skeevy”. Ew…
Progressives need to boycott Lawrence’s show. I don’t think Grayson will ever grace it with his presence again. This is the most classless show on television and needs to be boycotted by anyone who calls themself a credible progressive or liberal. We can shut him down.
Sorry I didn’t comment earlier…hope you read this. Wanted to say that you very impressively defended your (correct) views while remaining calm in the face of O’Donnell’s self-satisfied, smug, pompous, bully-boy onslaughts. What little respect I had for the guy vaporized that night and the next, when he lapsed – and quite quickly, too – into truly off-the-farm ranting at a congressman from Florida. (Will somebody pleeeeeaze give this a guy a pill.) You, on the other hand, were a credit to those not ready to suspend critical, objective thinking, and who are simply trying to hang on to a shred of their idealism as they push to make things better for all, particularly the less fortunate. Thank you, and keep up the stellar work, Jane.
Jane –
I know you’ve said before that it is important to utilize any platform, even going on Fox Noise, to get the right message across to the maximum number of people, but I gotta say, you got more stomach than I do. Not that it will ever happen, but I’m not sure I could bring myself to appear with LoDo. And certainly not restrain myself from jumping in his shit from the get-go.
Jane –
Just to add: you have any idea why he booked you the other night in the first place? Was it possible he’s so self-deluded that he thought he could co-opt you in some way? Didn’t he have an idea what kind of message you’d bring to the discussion? (Whatever the reason, bet he won’t make that mistake again anytime soon!)
First, allow me to compliment Jane on her elegance and grace under pressure and her articulate, intelligent defense of her positions.
When we speak of the estate tax, or any issue for that matter, we too often get bogged down in the meaningless details tossed in our path to distract us from our destination.
Truthfully, in the current context, it matters very, very little whether Obama’s estate tax proposal is worse than it was under Bush or better than it was in 2001 or whatever. The entire discussion is a distraction to begin with. The real measure is not one of comparing Obama to Bush… interesting though such comparisons may be.
The measure is whether we are addressing the ultimate inequities in our society. Let’s start with a real position on estate taxes, to reflect our core values, instead of tinkering around with virtually meaningless presidential comparisons. Let’s fight for our cause instead of quibbling over nonsense.
And, what are our values?
In my view, there should be a maximum size to an estate. All wealth, including both money and property, above some amount should be taxed at 100%. Perhaps you disagree; that’s fine. Let’s at least broaden the debate to include the idea. Otherwise, we’re playing with our money and the oligarchs risk nothing. If compromises are to be made, let’s compromise between an extreme left position and the center rather than compromising, as we now do, between the extreme right position and the center.
I’d like to see Jane, in her public appearances, give voice to ideas like these. She need not support them herself but she should air them to help move the goalposts in the debate.
I haven’t read all the comments, so maybe someone has said this already: Larry, who says on his show you’re not entitled to “your own facts” essentially made up his own facts about the estate tax. He correctly asserted that it is at 0%…but he incorrectly asserted/implied that the rate would have been the same next year and that Obama’s deal was tougher. What he apparently didn’t know was or understand is that the rate was set to revert to 55% on 1/1/11…until Obama intervened to keep it lower. So, this was yet another Obama giveaway to the rich.
Larry OD’s pretense than he is “just asking questions” is totally self-deluded and his shouting at you and other guests has just been really bizarre. The only thing I can figure about his level of emotion in defense of Obama’s caving is that when he worked in government in the 90′s, he must have promoted, or been party to, lots of caving by Clinton et. al. So in defending Obama, he is defending himself. Not sure I buy my own analysis, but I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt…not that that wouldn’t make him totally pathetic anyway.
par for his pathetic course
Yeah, his very deliberate distortion that point makes me distrust that we’re going to be getting “fair and balanced” from him in the future. If I wanted to be conned, I’d watch FOX. His viewers aren’t as ignorant as he thinks they are.
Agreed 100%, Larry was put on the air to move msnbc towards the center and if he gets the ratings their looking for you will see Kieth and the rest of them slowly replaced.
He totally changed his stripes form his days as a fill in.
One more comment about Dudley Do-Right’s less-than-hospitable attempted dust-up of his guests: It just reflects poorly on him. It would be bad enough if he were correct, but he was the one getting confused; perhaps his emotions got the best of him. You were speaking of Bush’s deal, not the deal done under Obama. (Tsk tsk, Larry…)
The larger point, and one that O’Donnell managed to miss repeatedly, is why there was not sufficient leadership well before the election to bring those on the left together, and to hold the vote then. Yes, the votes weren’t there, Pelosi, has said, but why not? Couldn’t someone have shown leadership in bringing about a consensus before last month’s election? Of course they could have. Voting in December, after getting lambasted in November, was a sham.
Without more leadership than we’ve seen of late, we’re just doomed to have to settle for less and less.
O’Donnell and Matthews both used to worked in Washington (as aids/staffers). That’s really all you need to know.
You Rock Jane!!
Jane I can’t stand Lawerance, he is apoligist for obama, obama could switch parties and Lawerance would still support him. The only reason I watched that part of the show was because you and adam were on there. How come you never are on the ed show any more. thanks for standing up for our real liberal positions
Jane, make him apologize.
I can’t stand that man…
Why couldn’t they have given the time slot to someone who isn’t a celebrity-and-self-obsessed meaner version of Tweety Bird?
Chris Hayes, with his own show, would have been the natural fit to me to follow Rachel. Heck, Ezra’s been getting a lot of play lately — and even though I don’t always agree with him — I’d be fascinated to watch the kind of wonky show he could helm. NPR-like, with a slightly more pronounced POV, at 10 seems like it could work well to me. We could even give him a chalk board and tell him to show Glenn Beck how to really do it ;p
But, yeah, Chris Hayes needs a show desperately. The guy’s as good as it comes, IMO.
Nah, he was almost as bad with the fill-ins… he just didn’t have as much opportunity.
Give Ezra his own show? Oh, God, no!
Have to prefice with I don’t know that much about anything…
I brought up PM today, to me… he was (whatever his politics,) a person that stated things in real good language.
He sounded smart, and made smart sounding speaches etc.
That is what the MTU take umbrage with,
That he used eloquent language, that is all, that is bad for the monster.
How about the little item: 2% reduced social security tax. My fn god how obvious does it need to get for what that this piece of crap is?
He would liked to have been a HNr… but back in the day… They sure did have better looking ones (ala TJ/ hemmings) To work in the fields was what was… to pick a bale, and to survive. But what some did, was to somekindaway or another, get some kinda job in da house, of the masssa, so that you gets ta be in da warm house… etc.
All this bs and it is not getting much sound bights about this signiture item:
to take away funding of Social Security, that is the most important thing in the whole piece of crap, out of the ass of the worst Presnit, and that is Nitwit.
I was mostly thinking about the email responces which Jane received. But yeah, maybe O’Donnell is amoungst the true believers that get mad when thier narrative is disrupted by reality.
It’s just rough dealing with such people. Facts and reason just make them more angry. And I don’t know how you’d go about meaningfully altering thier internal narrative in a 20 second sound bite. If anything, they need some less threatening transitional narratives to act as mental training wheels to help them start to think.
O’Donell’s disingenuous argument concerning the zero out of the estate tax in 2010 ( a temporary and special tax situation for that year only) demonstrates just how desperate he was to defend the Democratic establishment. His credibility is essentially destroyed with this little diatribe. I also noted that he almost completely ignored you tonight during the discussion with Nader and Lerner and Grayson. Yes, I wish we had Superman to primary Big O too. Perhaps he will emerge soon.
all in all… what do they cut… ? the funding for social security, that little tiny bit that is nothing, but pays your last leggs when you as a (person, like a real gadamned person,,,) with a need to pay for groceries, or rent even…
This little thing is what the bastard wants to put on the block….
Do you see it already? to start to defund it, to starve the funding, which is such a clever and underhanded way to undermine what is probably the one thing…. that proves the benefit of a good government, which is what the crooks do not want… So the crooks are in command. So get real and understand that, then we can talk… Mahalue or wtf.
In addition to all his other defects, tonight I just realized that LoDo is a masochist. Why else would he invite Jane and Grayson back, and include Ralph Nader on the panel, unless he wanted to look bad and get pummeled (metaphorically)?
Hmm, oaf . . .
Veal.
Puff Pastry.
Chantrelles’s, butter, shallots, garlic, red wine, brandy, green peppercorns . . .
Demi Glace.
Whisk in some butter to finish sauce.
Stuff, bake oaf, make sauce and reduce and slather over oaf product once cut on the diagonal as you plate it . . .
Serve with fresh spring asparagus spears briefly poached in white wine, rosemary, butter, roasted red bell pepper strips, slivered carrots, lemon zest (or if REALLY exotic, use preserved Meyer Lemons) . . . garlic, chicken stock, maybe some slivered roasted almonds . . .
Yeah, that oughta cover up the horrid and rancid taste of the fucking oafs . .
*G*
How you guys doin?
That’s just too square . . .
For us hepcats.
*G*
Wow.
This one is gonna go on forever . . .
*G*
He’s actually British and into spanking?
No offense to Brits or Spankers intended . . .
The worst thing about O’Donnell? He’s boring. I tried watching back when and snoozed off. Man has nothing to say. What’s the trial lawyer’s protocol: when the law is against you, argue the facts; when the facts are against you, argue the law; when the facts and the law are against you, pound the table and yell. Larry went right to the bottom of the barrel, no fooling around with the facts or the law for him.
Love Lawrence! He invites Jane back on then ignores her for an hour. Jane, you did have a nice smile the whole time. How is it you never thought of shooting him the bird even if it would be out of sight?