I hesitate to jump into these shark-infested waters, but here goes.
I certainly have my own opinion on the “transsexual” vs. “transgender” debate that has ignited many a flame war on the internet over the last few months between those who want to separate our community based on those who have had or, at least, want to have, SRS, from everyone else, but I'm not going to express that here. Instead, I'm going to take a position that I’ve never seen expressed by anyone else, although some have come close. My position comes from my background as an attorney and my understanding of how anti-discrimination laws are written and are intended to operate.
Here's what I know to be true: the dispute about who is transsexual and who isn't is irrelevant to the fight for protections for transsexual, transgender, genderqueer and every other gender variant or gender nonconforming person in this country. Why? Because of how anti-discrimination laws are written for both practical and constitutional reasons.
Why anti-discrimination statutes don’t use terms like “transsexual” or “transgender”
If you look at federal or state anti-discrimination laws, you'll see something very interesting. Although the primary purpose of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (including, Title VII, the federal ban on sex, race and other discrimination in employment) was to end discrimination against African-Americans, if you read it, you will see that nowhere does it say that it is illegal to discriminate against African-Americans. Instead, it says that it's illegal to discriminate against anyone on the basis of race. There are two reasons for this approach.
First, using terms like African-American, Hispanic, Asian-Pacific Islander or Native American would lead to difficult, if not impossible, problems of determining in any given situation who fits into the relevant category. For example, I have a friend who identifies as both African-American and Native American. However, upon seeing her, many people may doubt that she is anything but “white.” So, where should the cut-off be? Should it 1/8 or 1/64 native or African-American blood, which is the cut-off used by some Native American tribes for tribal membership? Should it be how the person self-identifies? Or should it be whatever a court or jury, employer or shelter operator decides a particular person is? Our courts are already bogged down enough; we don’t need to compound that problem by introducing such difficult, and, ultimately, unnecessary, issues.
Using such vague categories leads us to the second reason why such categories aren’t used in anti-discrimination laws: statutes that are so ambiguous that they allow for arbitrary distinctions and enforcement are “void for vagueness” under the Due Process Clauses of state and federal constitutions. In other words, if whether one person is or isn’t protected depends on distinctions that can’t be made on any sort of objective basis, so that different people may reasonably interpret and apply the law in different ways, the statute is void and unenforceable.
In addition, there is another constitutional problem with using terms like African-American in anti-discrimination laws. If a statute protects only people who fall into one racial category, but not another, what you have done is enshrine in the law the very racial discrimination that you are trying to eliminate. That, in turn, makes the statute unconstitutional as a violation of equal protection under both state and federal constitutions. Therefore, for a statute meant to eliminate racial discrimination to be constitutional, you have to ban all racial discrimination, not just discrimination against the particular minority group or groups you are most concerned about protecting. That’s why the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and other federal, state and local anti-discrimination laws make it illegal to discriminate on the basis of “race,” not particular racial categories. In other words, by protecting everyone against such discrimination, you avoid claims that the statue violates equal protection. The other benefit of that approach relates to the first problem discussed above. By using broad categories like “race,” you eliminate the need to decide what race someone belongs to.
For the same constitutional and practical reasons, the 1964 Civil Rights Act and other anti-discrimination laws don’t ban discrimination against women; instead, they ban discrimination against anyone, male or female, man or woman, based on “sex.”
Lastly, and, perhaps, most importantly, this approach fulfills one of the most important founding principles of our county: the belief in “equal justice for all,” not just the rich, not just whites, and not just men, and not just those who are poor, black or female.
How does this apply to protections for trans people?
What does all this mean when we start talking about protecting members of the trans community (however broadly or narrowly you want to define that community) from discrimination because of who we are? If anti-discrimination statutes intended to protect our community used terminology like “transsexual” or “transgender,” whenever any of us tried to invoke those protections, we would find ourselves in the same endless discussions about what those terms mean and who belongs in which category that have been taking place over the last several months, and which I believe are highly damaging to the goal of ensuring that we can all live our lives as who we are. Any such statute would, thus, be unconstitutional as both “void for vagueness” and a violation of equal protection. Why equal protection? Because everyone has a gender, gender identity and gender expression. Therefore, everyone should be protected against discrimination on that basis, since none of those characteristics are relevant to whether a particular person can do a particular job or should be allowed to buy a house or rent an apartment, regardless of how they identify. (As for the problem of bathrooms and other sex-segregated facilities, see below.)
Consequently, when you look at the proposed Employment Nondiscrimination Act (ENDA) or any of the state or local statutes protecting our community from discrimination, you’ll see that most of them ban discrimination based on “gender identity” or “gender identity and expression,” not based on whether someone is “transsexual” or “transgender.” (A few subsume those categories under the definition of “sexual orientation” and then prohibit discrimination based on that term.) Under this approach, everyone is protected against discrimination based on their gender identity (i.e., the gender they identify as internally), regardless of whether or how that identity is expressed outwardly, and against discrimination based on their appearance, mannerisms and other behavior that are interpreted by others as an expression of gender, regardless of the person’s gender identity. In other words, everyone has a gender identity and a gender expression; therefore, everyone is protected against discrimination on that basis. Thus, the housewife who is too harried with housework and delivering kids to and from school to put on makeup or a dress can’t be kicked out of the grocery store for wearing her husband’s flannel shirt and buzz cutting her hair because she doesn’t have time to care for it (or simply likes it that way.) Similarly, the straight man who, for whatever reason, talks with a lisp or has what others see as effeminate gestures, and the straight woman who has a square jaw, large hands and feet and facial hair, are protected from discrimination simply because someone decides they’re not masculine or feminine enough to qualify as a man or a woman. Those people, too, suffer the effects of prejudice deriving from our society’s gender norms and deserve protection against discrimination just as much as trans people.
(One of the most famous cases relevant to protecting trans people against discrimination involved a cisgender woman, not a trans woman. In that case – Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins, Ann Hopkins was a CPA working for the accounting firm who was eligible to become a partner. She was denied partnership, however, because some of the existing partners thought she was too aggressive for a woman, and needed to dress and act more femininely. When she got to the U.S. Supreme Court, the Court held that Price Waterhouse had violated the ban on sex discrimination under Title VII by discriminating against her because she failed to comply with the “sex stereotypes” held by the existing partners for how women should look and act. This is the legal theory that has since been applied to protect trans people against discrimination under state and federal statutes that ban sex discrimination, even though they don’t explicitly bar discrimination based on gender identity or expression. The best and most recent example of this is Diane Schroer’s decisive victory over the Library of Congress.)
But what about bathrooms?
But what about sex-segregated facilities like bathrooms, locker rooms and showers? Personally, I wish we could do away with such segregation and people could just get over their discomfort and fear concerning their own and other people’s bodies and bodily functions. That’s not likely to happen in my lifetime, however, and sex-segregated facilities are going to continue to exist. So what do we do?
When we are challenged for entering a restroom, it’s because someone doesn’t think we look feminine or masculine enough, or, if you wish, because we look too masculine or feminine, for the sex that restroom is designated for. When those who oppose trans women’s use of women’s restrooms are asked why, they invariably respond with fears about men in the women’s room and the risk of rape or other sexual predation. When pressed, they will usually expand that by explaining that they don’t want anyone with a penis in the women’s room. But, of course, no one knows what genitalia any of us, cis or trans, carries when we use such spaces (at least, not in the absence of criminal activity or a close, personal relationship). Instead, people decide who is a man or a woman based on their perception of the other’s gender expression (clothes, makeup, mannerisms, etc.) and visible portions of the person’s body (face, hands, feet, etc.), and then make the assumption that this person must have a penis or a vagina and, therefore, is a man or a woman. It is this process that leads to masculine women and effeminate men, whether gay or straight, being confronted, ejected and even arrested for using a restroom for which, if anatomy is the determining factor, they are certainly qualified to use. It is also this process that results in post-op trans women, and, less frequently, trans men, being subjected to the same treatment even though a “panty check” would reveal the same genitalia as the intended users of that space. Finally, it is because this process results in even post-op trans people being excluded from sex-segregated facilities to which their genitalia should give them access that limiting trans people’s access to such facilities based on whether they have had genital surgery, or plan to do so at some point in the future, is unworkable. (It also grants doctors, psychiatrists, therapists and/or the government the power to determine who is and is not “woman” or “man” enough to use such facilities, a power I am not willing to cede to anyone.)
So, again, what do we do about sex-segregated facilities? Here’s my proposal: If the statutes we pass bar discrimination based on gender identity and/or expression, then it is unlawful to deny someone access to a bathroom, for example, simply because someone thinks that person’s gender expression isn’t masculine or feminine enough for that space. In other words, if someone is presenting as a woman, she has the right to use the women’s room, and vice versa for men’s rooms, regardless of whether zie is post-op, pre-op or non-op, and regardless of whether zie identifies as transsexual, transgender, genderqueer, crossdresser, drag queen or whatever other gender category zie cares to claim. Since, barring illegal activity or a close, personal relationship, no one knows what’s in another person’s pants, if it’s wrong to exclude a butch, cisgender woman from a women’s room, then it’s equally wrong to exclude anyone expressing hir gender as a woman from that same space. In either case, the exclusion would be based not on the person’s actual anatomy, but on someone else’s assumptions and prejudice about who is “really” a woman. Our country has always opposed unequal treatment based on personal assumptions or prejudices about who is and isn’t entitled to the benefits of our society, and I see no reason that we should deviate from that principle when it comes to sex-segregated facilities. (Of course, the same arguments apply to men’s rooms and people who present as men.)
Okay, you say, that takes care of bathrooms. What about showers and locker rooms where nudity sometimes takes place? Here, I believe the best solution is that proposed in ENDA, since it gives proper respect both to concerns about personal privacy and to each individual’s gender identity. As introduced, ENDA contains a specific exclusion that provides that an employer’s “denial of access to shared shower or dressing facilities in which being seen unclothed is unavoidable” would not violate that statute, “provided that the employer provides reasonable access to adequate facilities that are not inconsistent with the employee’s gender identity” at the time the person was hired or as established by a later notice to the employer “that the employee has undergone or is undergoing gender transition.” (ENDA, Sec.8(a)(3); my italics.) In other words, employers could continue to maintain sex-segregated locker rooms and showers. However, in determining who is allowed access to the men’s or women’s facilities, the employer must recognize the employee’s announced gender identity with the sole exception that, where nudity is “unavoidable,” the employer may require someone whose presence may make other employees uncomfortable to use separate facilities, but only if those separate facilities conform to the person’s gender identity. (In other words, an employer couldn’t make a trans woman use the men’s locker room, or vice versa. Note also, that this could be applied to cisgender, not just trans, men and women. When butch women and effeminate men start getting excluded from the men’s and women’s locker rooms, I suspect that we’ll win over quite a few allies to the idea that segregation based on someone else’s perception of our gender expression is patently ridiculous.)
(Some people reading this may wonder how this principle applies with respect to things like dress codes. Basically, if an employee is hired as a man, ENDA allows the employer to require him to conform to the dress code for men until such time as the employee informs the employer that zie is transitioning to female, or vice versa. (Sec. 8(a)(5).) After the employee transitions to living full time in hir affirmed gender, zie must then conform to the dress code for that gender. This scheme is actually quite elegant and workable in practice. In addition, it has the advantage of not requiring the transitioning employee to prove to the employer that zie is “really” a woman or vice versa by providing a letter from a doctor or therapist, or proving zie has undergone SRS, hormone therapy or any other medical treatment. Instead, it allows the employee complete freedom to work as the person zie knows hirself to be, without interference or second-guessing by anyone else.)
So, there it is. It isn’t necessary to determine whether someone is transsexual, transgender or anything else to provide legal protections for everyone, cis or trans, against arbitrary discrimination because zie doesn’t fit someone else’s concepts of who is “really” a woman or a man, or to determine who can use sex-segregated bathrooms and other facilities. Therefore, I, for one, intend to ignore that debate and get on with the business of enacting fair and just legal protections that allow all of us to simply be who we are.
[Crossposted on my blog, Living My Life.]
Abigail Jensen is a trans woman and attorney in Prescott, Arizona, and a general rabble rouser on trans, as well as LGB, issues. She also serves on the Board of the local women's shelter and the Board of TransMentors International, which, among other things, is currently working on its TransForm Arizona conference scheduled for Phoenix, Arizona, on October 20-23.



143 Comments




This was very good.
But, unfortunately, there are plenty who may not wish to follow the rules of civility. The human, solid waste excrement will eventually make violent contact with a mechanical, rotating, air circulating device.
Sweet Jesus
Now, per the antecedent note by Autumn, it is against the Terms of Service to post “inaccurate information?” Which way to the Gulag? This would be funny, if it weren’t so sad.
So, who determines the accuracy of any statement?
Are you just going to start fresh by banning everyone since surely everyone who posts has posted inaccurate information? Or just going forward?
Absolutely the best
post I have seen on the issue. This has been my point all along. That, and the TT shouldn’t get to perform panty checks.
Thanks Abigail
for articulating from a legal perspective something that I have thought all along; legislation should protect anyone from being discriminated against for gender identity and/or expression, regardless of whether or not they’re trans.
Thank you.
I am always surprised at how complicated we humans can make things. It’s disappointing that it takes a lawyer to explain what should be obvious. But, i hope we can all use this as a starting point.
Thank you.
Entire argument based on false assumptions
Women of trans history have exactly one legal issue, full recognition of sex/gender post corrected. That’s it. With that, you are on a level playing field with other women, your “protections” under law are the same as other women, your further civil rights issues are the same as other women.
We have no need of ENDAs and GENDAs and other alphabet soups. And many if not most of us are not happy about people with penises in sex segregated facilities and actually oppose that.
hopefully it’ll be grandfathered…. :)
… or else there’d be no users left here!! I mean, who hasn’t posted inaccurate information at least once?
Whoops, perhaps that was inaccurate. Perhaps there are a few members who have never, ever made a mistake. Crap, hopefully I won’t get booted.
Very enlightening -
Thank you for an educational and thought-provoking perspective.
Lets hope everyone digests it before responding.
Om Kalthoum, you’re threadjacking
Take that subject to the appropriate diary.
THIS SUBTHREAD IS CLOSED.
Thanks, hawke.
Cathryn,
Cisgender women, women of transgender or transsexual history, women born transsexual, and every other variety of woman you care to identify, as well as cisgender, trans, etc. men, and all those who don’t identify with any part of the gender binary, all need and deserve protection against discrimination because someone else doesn’t think they are masculine, feminine or whatever else enough to be deserving of equal treatment. We’ve all heard of straight, cisgender women who have been thrown out of public restrooms because someone decided they weren’t feminine enough to use that space. Those women deserve protection against such unfair treatment, as much as you and I.
The types of laws I discuss above protect everyone. Is there another approach that would protect only “women of trans history”? Probably, but I would oppose any such approach both for legal reasons as outlined in my post, and because it is simply unfair to declare that only some people are entitled to equal treatment. That approach would be like saying that only black people should be protected against racial discrimination, or that only Catholics or Jews or Mormons or any other religious denomination should be protected against religious discrimination. Since it’s possible to protect everyone without making such distinctions, I will work toward enacting such laws for everyone’s benefit. You, of course, are free to disagree and use your energy to pursue a different approach.
Um, no, it’s not
Many years ago when I was pre-op, another tenant in my psychiatrist’s building complained that a man was using the ladies’ room. My psychiatrist replied that he did not have any male clients who used the ladies’ room, although he did have a woman with a hormone condition that made her appear somewhat masculine. I blessed him for that.
Anyone who thinks that I – or another transwoman in a similar situation – was a threat simply doesn’t understand what being trans is all about. Any male anatomy I had at that point would have been useless as a weapon, not to mention the fact that I was repulsed by the idea of using it in the first place. While no other woman in that ladies’ room was in danger from me, I can guarantee that my life would have been in danger if I had used the mens’ room.
Also, as far as our protections being the same as other womens’, even after SRS, all someone has to do to realize that’s not accurate is to read the news stories about transwomens’ marriages being considered invalid because they were born with male anatomy.
When transwomen and transmen are no longer beaten, murdered, or even just banned from housing or jobs because of our gender identity or expression, then I’ll agree that legal protections might not be necessary. Until then, I’ll be thankful for the legal protections we do have, and I’ll proudly fight for the ones we still need.
Thank you.
Ah, and what about the pre-op trans people?
Are they to be left out of the equal rights because they still have a penis, because they have not yet been able to get the operation?
Definitely not!
Pre-op, non-op, post-op, transgender, transsexual, genderqueer, cisgender or whatever. Everyone receives the same protection regardless of what they may have in their underwear.
The important thing to keep in mind in thinking about anti-discrimination laws is that the protection they provide depends on the motivation of the employer or other person accused of discrimination, not on the characteristics of the victim. Thus, an employer who fires a white woman because zie mistakenly thinks she is black has engaged in illegal race discrimination despite the fact that the woman is really white. That is just one example of the many ways such laws protect everyone.
Should unavoidable nudity be the only criterion?
What about prisons and other incarceration facilities? Is there a way via this proposal to avoid placing non-op transsexuals (or whatever the PC term is) in solitary confinement while also avoiding placing people with penises in a women’s prison or people with vaginas in a men’s facility? Who would determine what a person’s “identity” is? Would a person simply be asked?
I don’t ask these questions to undermine the proposal, which seems pretty reasonable to me, but to try to visualize how it would work beyond theory and into the real world. Thanks in advance.
I’ve never heard a woman wish for such a thing:
Women don’t feel that taking showers with male strangers in unisex facilities is ANYTHING they wish for. Our refusal to entertain that possibility is certainly not something we need to “get over.”
What a ludicrous statement. Total madness. And to characterize women’s (and most men’s) demand that women not share facilities with men where both will be naked as being due to “discomfort and fear” about their OWN bodies! Very disturbing stuff. Totally divorced from the reality of women’s existence.
My question was in reply to Cathryn’s statement,
but the point you make here is the important one.
Prisons and jails
It is unfair and abusive to place anyone in solitary confinement to protect them from violence that prisons and jails have a duty to prevent. The isolation and loss of other privileges that are part of solitary confinement (because solitary cells are usually part of high security units where privileges are severely limited) have horrible impacts. Plus, it is unfair to make an inmate suffer because correctional authorities cannot fulfill their obligation to protect all inmates from violence.
I also see no reason why trans women who have not yet had SRS should not be housed with other women, or why trans men who have not yet had any genital surgery should not be housed with other men. Certainly, in terms of security, trans women are much safer in a women’s facility than with other men. I am less familiar with the situation of trans men in prisons, and, so, don’t know where they are likely to be safest. In any case, current policies that segregate prisons solely on the basis of genitalia are based on bigoted assumptions that women with penises aren’t “really” women and that men without penises aren’t “really men, while ignoring obvious security concerns, at least with respect to trans women. So, no, I don’t see any reason why inmates in jails and prisons shouldn’t be assigned based on their gender identity and expression, rather than their genitalia, with adequate provisions to deal with privacy (and resulting security) issues in showers and other facilities where nudity is unavoidable.
This topic is, however, beyond the scope of my post, so I haven’t considered all the possible issues and don’t think it’s appropriate to continue to discuss the problems of trans inmates any further here.
Methinks thou doest generalize too much
Well, Om, I’m a woman and that’s what I would like to see in the long run. And I’ll wager I’m not the only woman who feels that way. In any case, neither of us has any basis to claim we know what all women want. That’s why I simply stated my personal opinion, and did not claim to speak on behalf of all women (or men, for that matter).
More importantly, after stating my opinion, I immediately acknowledged that my wish is unlikely to happen any time soon, and then discussed how I think the problems of sex-segregated facilities should be handled, given that reality. So, how about we focus on that?
I get it, I get it.
That’s what YOU would want. I’m generalizing, you say? Tell me honestly if you for an instant think any proportion of the female population over 0.001 per cent would want to shower with strange men. I can’t believe I’m having this conversation. You are truly deluded.
But keep it up. It’s kind of like the big transgender secret that most of the population, male and female, have no idea about. When the original trans protections were passed, most folks thought it was about “fixing” a birth defect, a la Christine Jorgensen. Most of the general population had no idea until recently that things had changed in just a few short decades and now male-bodied persons are demanding access to previously female-only spaces. Keep it up. The religious right can sit back and let you do their work for them.
No thanks
It’s truly irrelevant whether anyone besides myself would like to see that future, so I don’t plan on discussing it further.
I think…
there is a very important distinction missed in this diatribe. While I will agree that there are certain points brought up in this explanation for the masses, what is missed is that the entire “debate” has very little to do with a definition as much as it has to do with the very real backlash created by the over embracing usage of the transGENDER umbrella.
This is a backlash created by a backlash. As Cathryn pointed out, has pointed and continues to point out despite the criticisms I’ve seen piled upon her, those who have and continue to embrace the Standards of Care are sickened and appalled by those who claim admission under the umbrella. This is a result of those same “I’m trans-GENDERED!” who consistently fail to understand that just because you claim something makes it untrue if there is no evidence to back it up, and the outside perceptions those same claims evoke.
It is on this particular area that I happen to agree with the Rad Fems. I do have my disagreements with other portions of their criticism of the trans* community however I won’t go into those here.
I’m also in agreement with Cathryn regarding where the actual focus of our efforts should be. To me, and I use analogy in the following statement, fighting for anti-discrimination statutes in the manner suggested here are similar to asking for additional Jim Crowe laws. It is a half-step that should be avoided because traditionally additional civil rights are historically voided once the initial rights granted. By way of one proof, I offer up Women’s suffrage and the failed Equal Rights Amendment.
Overall, I’m a progressive centrist. I do my best to see both sides of a disagreement and find out what is really at the heart of the matter, ignoring the noise and pollution as the sides try to score their individual points against each other.
Observations
Should have been prefaced by “to my knowledge” or some aspect of cultural acknowledgement, since it is a fact that in many places women do indeed take baths, showers, and even urinate with male strangers in attendance. Thusly, this statement is flatly false, or else a matter of subjective opinion.
Opinion supported and referential to the previous statement, which is falsehood and/or subjective.
Subtextual commuication inherent in these statement given the contextual linkage to trans indivdiuals requires the consideration of trans women, specifically, as not women. Thus, the above statements are factually transphobic, since they represent and drectly state an aversion to, intense dislike of, and/or anxiety relating to trans indivdiuals or transness.
Thusly, the assertion is, essentially, that women do not need to get over transphobia, and that their transphobic anxieties, dislikes, or whatever are not something they need to get over.
I feel very confident in asserting that more than 152,926 women (0.001% of the US poplation of females (total), based on the US Census fact sheet — http://factfinder.census.gov/s… enjoy showering with strange men.
Then again, I’m fairly certain that the number of women engaging in sex work far outstrips that number as well.
Factually unproven statement, a breaking of the revised terms of service, and ableist language, to boot.
Massive broad brush attack, asserting a concept that requires underlying transphobia to have merit.
As for the rest, well, it stands for itself, but reinforces certain concepts and expresses a personal opinion that is generally — and has been consistently — negative towards trans people.
Well . . .
Abby,
I did say the s-word would hit the fan. Your points in the article are very clear and show how legislation fills the loopholes. Too bad there are some who think they are special, invent false medical reasons to justify why they are special, and can’t stand having equal rights if it means being equal with those of us whom they sees as inferior.
I just can’t picture that happening in the 1960′s where light-skinned African Americans considered themselves special and didn’t want to be consider equal with their darker skinned brothers and sisters. But, trans people are made up of a lot of ______ (Fill in the blank yourself.)
It’s interesting that some trans women think they are no longer trans and think they have somehow morphed into a true female. Yet, a 1000 years from now, when an anthropologist digs up their bones and lay them out, they’ll say they’re the bones of a man, with the exception of those of us who might be intersex. Who will be there to argue the point then? I suggest being cremated.
Again, good article.
This is a hard question and a decent take on it…
… but …
The problem with this is that it sets absolutely no standards whatsoever. For example, perhaps there are some who don’t think that Rambo’s gender expression is feminine enough to use the women’s restroom. Doesn’t matter. Legally, with this in place, Rambo would have the right to use any such space at any time, regardless of his presentation. Which is analogous to saying that there ought not be any sex-segregated spaces. I’m certain that there are many here who would say, “Fine, that’s the way it ought to be.” In practical terms, however, that’s moot and won’t be happening anytime soon, as Abby points out.
This does start down the path of spaces labeled “Other,” spaces which are purported to be separate but equal. I’d say that history has shown that this doesn’t work. Personally, when it comes to my own life, I will take the Diane Schroer approach.
Anyway, kudos to Abby for approaching this very intractable problem in an even-handed manner.
reality check
Female bodied and woman identified women have zero obligation to “get over” their need for safe sex segregated space. I find it almost unbelievable this has to be explained.
People with male anatomy have no business in woman only space, they pose a potential danger which is the reason for sex segregated space in the first place. The arguments go something like this: ”We male bodied women identified people are harmless but we are in extreme danger if we are forced into spaces for male bodied people because they are dangerous to us”…….excuse me? Why is is then so difficult to understand that is the reasoning of female bodied, woman identified people? All this genderless wonderland stuff is fantasy as far as the bulk of the human race is concerned. Those who indulge in these fantasies seem to think that although they are a tiny minority, they get to dictate to the rest of the world. No one should be discriminated in housing or employment for being different but that isn’t what you are talking about here is it?
Avoiding the buzz words and sticking to the physical facts puts a different spin on all this. As far as I am concerned this demanding of special accommodations by the rest of society with “women bodied people need to get over it” is just a further extension of the war on women in general that is going on right now. Note that one response here was a mildly worded version of post corrected women aren’t really women so they are putting on airs being women. This is the position that was recently adopted by the religious right post transgender umbrella and the underlying philosophy these same people scream to the rooftops about from the radfems. It is just as offensive from trans identified people as it is from the religious right and a big part of the reason those of us with histories who are now female bodied and woman identified wish nothing further to do with association with them.
I’m mostly staying out of this
This appears to be yet another instance of passable vs. unpassable. Diagnosis of transsexuality or revelation of being transgendered is self-diagnosing. Basically, if you say you are transgendered, that’s really the end of the conversation…you are transgendered. I realize this makes a complicated issue much much too easy, but I will not jump into the mud and start slinging. After all, since making a joke at the expense of “Journey”, I’m on double secret probation here anyway.
“When we are challenged for entering a restroom, it’s because someone doesn’t think we look feminine or masculine enoug”
I don’t think that is true at all. I think they think they are actually looking at someone from the opposite sex in their private space. If they were educated about transsexualism then perhaps they would feel more comfortable.
Some men wear dresses and need to pee. So, educate men about that and they should allow them to use the men’s private spaces without question.
I for one want men to use their spaces and women to use theirs as well. I do not want a man to be in the same women’s private space I occupy.
Things Would Look Different
If society were designed around everyone sharing common facilities, things would look different. Currently, they’re designed to a heteronormative standard which assumes that all women are completely asexual to each other (same with all men) and desire no privacy. How many stories have we heard of completely straight boys and girls who were embarrassed to undress in front of same-sex peers during phys ed? How many adults still hate pooping in multi-stall bathrooms? If bathrooms and showers and locker rooms were designed for all people to use them, they wouldn’t look like they do today. There would be more corners of privacy for those who want it, and open space for those who don’t. Many spaces already have “family restrooms” in addition to men’s and women’s, so it’s not a foreign concept.
Gender-Safe Restrooms a Thing of the Present
That reminds me, here’s a map of places which provide gender-safe restrooms: http://safe2pee.org/
Reality check for YOU.
You are not protected. You can kiss up to the hetero-cis normative universe all you want, you can kick other trans women in the face all you want, but the blunt fact is that being post-transition did not protect Christie Littleton, and it is not protecting Nikki Araguz, and it hasn’t protected any of dozens, hundreds, thousands of other post-transition women. The idea that having a vagina makes you a specialler snowflake than the women who are not rich and privileged to have gone through surgery yet, breaks like a dropped pane of glass on the cold, hard concrete of legal facts.
Embracing cissexism does not protect you.
Even been out with lesbians?
Since vagina-having-from-birth butch lesbians get hassled in the women’s room far more than I do (all the time vs. never ever), I’d say that being perceived as “masculine”, or “not feminine enough” has something to do with it.
So, no it isn’t about someone of the opposite sex being anywhere since butch lesbians and femme straight women are both women. Nice way to turn a statement of fact (butch women and others have their femininity questioned in the bathroom) and turn it into the only drum you know how to bang… When the reality is Dana, my non-op self has never ever one time ever ever ever had any trouble in the ladies’ room. I can name more than a few people advocating on your side who have probably had to show their ID in the potty (and pray they were wearing the same hair they used the day the pic was taken).
get a grip
First a correction of your ass-um-tions, I am bisexual myself, I view any use of the concept of “cis” as prima facie proof of the users third gender identity rather than being a woman or man. I am not trans as you have stated. I was born intersexed and surgically made transsexed at birth. I fixed that. I am what you would call “cis” which I suppose makes me the enemy. I am hardly wealthy or privileged or was so. I was lower middle class in income my entire adult life and never made more than 24 grand a year but still managed to correct my problem, support a family and put my daughter through a decent university. Today I live on less than poverty level SSI from physical disablilties. Let’s toss this rich privileged garbage in the dustbin where it belongs.
You have not lived as a female bodied woman at all so you actually have no position of any actual experience to speak to that. I have that experience, quite a bit of it in fact. Three or four cases hardly make a universal experience, the fact is, the vast majority of women similar to myself simply do not experience this routine need for protection that is constantly invoked by trans activists. If anything, we need protection from trans activists much more than the general public. I am binary identified. I am no problem with those who are not until they do what you just did and tar me with not being a gender deconstructionist.
It actually gets damn tiring to constantly see those lacking in the experience of living a woman’s life with an actual female body lecturing to those of us who have.
So
Can you please explain what you mean by this statement?
(and pray they were wearing the same hair they used the day the pic was taken)
Again, the issue comes down to definitions
When one undertakes to use terms like
, the legal ramifications are daunting. What does “female bodied” mean? Is it genital configuration? Chromosomal? Does said person have the potential (past or future) to bear children? Does the person have a prostate gland, which is only a feature of “male bodied” people (if so defined)?
Abby’s point is that it is unnecessary to split these hairs in creating law or in constitutional issues. If you disagree with anti-discrimination laws, that’s fine. Arguing that the law should be written for a specific class of people just because you fit into that class is not a strategy that is likely to succeed.
And yes, many of us who fit your definition of “female bodied” people see the logic in equal protection for all people.
Sure
I’ve noticed that sometimes different wig styles and colors can drastically alter a person’s look. Particularly in different lighting and when the point of reference is a cruddy DMV photo one can assume this is more so.
I can only imagine how nervous it may be to be put in a situation where a store manager or ever police officer needs to do a double-take from ID to face back to ID. Kinda happened to me one time when I was younger and dies my hair a lovely blue and went from a chin-length to a more a-symmetrical cut. I got stopped by the cops who thought I was someone else and there was some question about my ID and if it was really me. Ultimately not a big deal, but it made for a nervous few minutes.
Just trying to show a little empathy for the post-trans potty patrol.
Kittyburger, Moderation Warning
Ad hominem commenting — “attacking the person instead of attacking [hir] argument” commenting — is specifically prohibited by the Pam’s House Blend Terms And Conditions Of Service (TOS), section A, line item 9.
This is your fair warning.
Wigs
Well, I don’t wear wigs myself but many women change their appearance drastically and still are able to get by. Not sure what that has to do with transsexuals.
un freakin’ believable!
Female bodied, having a vagina and not a penis
Male bodied, having a penis, usually testicles and not a vagina. This would be understood exactly as stated by anyone not a committed gender theory lunatic. Do you have a V-jay or a wee wee? An innie or an outie?
Any attempt at a common, undiluted and simple language is attacked by you people trying to take away any ability at all to communicate. No trans related term has any actual meaning any longer and is redefined often within a single persons posting to suit themselves and prove meaningless points. I have tried to reduce the language to a nice simple form and you throw in grade school genetics? I swear if I tried to just use pictures someone would find someway to short circuit it to prevent actual communication.
Since this is beginning to look like deliberate baiting and Sandeen has changed the TOS to pretty much toss anyone for anything, I’m out of this discussion.
CathrynP, Moderation Warning
Ad hominem commenting — “attacking the person instead of attacking [hir] argument” commenting — is specifically prohibited by the Pam’s House Blend Terms And Conditions Of Service (TOS), section A, line item 9.
Use of the subject line of “get a grip” and “ass-um-tions” is identified as ad hominem behavior.
This is your fair warning.
CathrynP, Moderation Warning
Ad hominem commenting — “attacking the person instead of attacking [hir] argument” commenting — is specifically prohibited by the Pam’s House Blend Terms And Conditions Of Service (TOS), section A, line item 9.
This is your second fair warning.
Trap Door Activated, Good-Bye
Ad hominem commenting — “attacking the person instead of attacking [hir] argument” commenting — is specifically prohibited by the Pam’s House Blend Terms And Conditions Of Service (TOS), section A, line item 9.
The “You are truly deluded”
Earlier in this thread, you were identified as engaging in threadjacking. There are multiple behaviors in this thread that indicate a failure to honor the PHB TOS.
Trap door activated: goodbye.
It still doesn’t work
I have a male friend that has been teased as long as I have known him (since the third grade) about his long hair. 47 years later and Levy Restaurants at the Georgia Dome still has a dress code requirement for suite attendants that men cannot have long hair, while women can as long as they have it up in a pony tail or other to keep it off the shoulders. In just about all other aspects, the dress codes are identical, jewelery, clothing, etc.
So I can show up with very noticable breasts and short hair and work, but if I show up flat chested and long hair, I get sent home.
As Abby portrays the law, it relies on both a gender binary and a sex binary, both of which have been proven scientifically to be outdated concepts, what with intersex, et.al. Intersex are still in a no-mans land, is that not so?
Believe me, gender expression and gender identity can be nearly totally opposite. My gender expression is very much feminine and I have a very noticable set of breasts, but since I am mostly male Gender Identity, where I work with no dress code other than revealing clothing, even if I use the Mens Restroom, I would get termintated if I were to wear a proper womens business skirt suit. This at a company that has an HRC 100%CEI.
So, the Price Waterhouse was Sex Discrimination for a woman not acting feminine enough. But does it work the other way, a man not acting masculine enough? Will a man, using the men’s restroom, but dressing as a female be afforded the same protections? Even with ENDA? At my corporation, No, not unless he gives written notice of a change in sex. It cannot be a change in gender because on the employee information page it lists sex and not gender.
We’re woman!
I think changing the way we look on a regular basis (especially the hair) is one of the fun parts of being a woman. No drab suits, or ties, unless you like that stuff. And, I love summer. Sundresses, tank tops, shorts, sandals. It’ll be 14 years on June 26. Stop fearing the change was the best thing I could have done for myself.
Sorry about changing the subject on the thread.
ermmm
Not a single word of that comment was personally directed except a general comment about your new policy which was exempted in your rules. I carefully worded to make sure that it was a general comment about a general method of redefinition to prevent actual communication absent a single personal reference to the individual I replied to.
I call foul on your warning when my full name appears on the left hand column in open violation of your own TOS.
I realize you will now once again ban me for stating this. So be it.
You Live in GA?
So do I.
Dana Lane, what would be the the mechanism for enforcing this?
In many states, one is allowed to change the gender marker on one’s state identification card without genital reconstruction surgery. Therefore, use of ID cards to determine genital shape would not work under the model which you put forward. Therefore, enforcing your idea would require genital checks of women before entering restrooms marked as women’s restrooms.
So then, who would be checked for male genitalia? I would argue that the criteria would be based on passing as female. This would, by design, mean that women who were perceived by members of society to have “male appearance” (or “male behavior”) would be subject to a genitalia check.
There are many lesbians here among the PHB readership that identify themselves as butch or as a dyke that would be repeatedly having to show their genitalia to use women’s restooms.
I’m arging that your model for policing restrooms is unworkable.
I do not enjoy showering with a naked stranger man and I am male bodied.
Hated HS gym class. Not comfortable using a mens bathroom. I wouldn’t want to shower naked in a women’s shower either.
So I fully support family restrooms and shower facilities.
TSA X-Ray Machines
I guess they could install TSA X-ray machines at the doors of women’s restrooms that sets off an alarm whenever there is a penis in the image. Would that be acceptable? We can call it a high tech way to ensure discrimination against pre-ops and non-ops. But, the cost will have to come out of the pockets of post-op transsexual women who want these installed.
(Sarcasm alert. Sorry.)
Enjoyed your analysis Abby, but ….
Congress passes laws as a form of societal damage control. Oh sure Congress passes some other stuff but the “biggies” get a head of steam because some major issue is tearing at the fabric of peaceful economically viable interests on main street in cities across the land.
When Barney and the boys pulled gender identity and expression out of ENDA I was livid at the time. But as I have watched the last 3+ years go nowhere on ENDA my perspective has changed. Your analysis can be viewed from another perspective. The very points you make highlight the possibility that the larger majority in Congress wants to keep discrimination in employment legal for gender identity issues. Why do I say this? Because the vast majority of business owners realize it can be (or they perceive it to be) a can of worms. They would prefer Congress let it die until damage control is really required. Many major corporations have already handled these issues without Congressional interference.
My heart goes out to anyone in the TS/TG world who has suffered simply because of who they are and yes some have been killed for it. As a practical matter, however, I doubt an inclusive ENDA is passable in the next decade or two. Even a non-inclusive ENDA might be DOA for a few decades. I really don’t know.
So I guess what I am saying is that eloquence of analysis is irrelevant. Nice to read and I appreciate the time you put into it. Personally, since I am aging too quickly, I am much more concerned with Congressional attempts to gut social security and medicare. I am also concerned with many other political and economic issues. I just don’t think the 15 million hetero-normative unemployed and their families give a damn about ENDA at this time.
I think I might REQUIRE that my genitalia be checked by other women using the bathroom
My guess is that that would truly be more repugnant to them than the possibility that I might have a penis. But if they’re truly concerned, they’ll be required to stare at my naked bits long enough to determine whether I’m safe to pee near. Likewise, I will require the right to groundtruth them.
The same mechanism in place now
There doesn’t need to be enforcement. I didn’t mention anything about GRS in my comment. Men use the mens room…women use the women’s room.
Now here is a question for you, Autumn. Do you want men to be able to use the women’s restroom and other private places?
No, but…
…You’ve been given fair warning — twice in this comment thread.
Argument to the person occurred when you stated (bold and red emphasis added to show violation>:
And…
That’s not arguing ideas, that is arguing to the person. And, part of the definition for ad hominem that we use as a definition at PHB is as follows:
For example, one way to have made your the first point I highlighte about women in women’s spaces — without ad hominem commenting — would have been a statements such as this:
Talking down to brendaaliana, especially the use of “baby talk” terms for penis and vagina to make your point, wasn’t necessary — and isn’t acceptable behavior per the PHB TOS.
Determinations for violations of the TOS are made by Pam and her baristas. Per the opening paragraph of Section A of the TOS (bold and red emphasis added):
This comment is off-topic but necessary to speak to what is acceptable vigorous arguing and what is not acceptable vigorous arguing in the PHB comment threads.
Now, lets get back to vigorous discussion of the kind that isn’t prohibited by the TOS: arguing ideas, and not arguing to the person in the process of arguing one’s point of view.
Interestingly…
there is no mechanism in place at present in most jurisdictions.
So you are arguing that there shouldn’t be any mechanism for enforcing the provisions?
The problem, Dana,
is how do we distinguish who is a “man” and who is a “woman,” and who gets to make that decision? As long as we limit access to some restrooms and other facilities based on sex (or gender), there will always be a need for someone to be given the power to decide who is woman or man enough to use a given facility. Even if, ultimately, you decide that only people whose ID or genitalia matches the sex designated for that facility will be allowed access, there will still need to be someone who gets to decide whose ID or panties needs to be checked. It is that judgment can only be made based on gender presentation. (That’s true even for those whose say that their objection is based on having a person of the opposite sex in “their” facility, since the only clues to a person’s sex at that point is hir gender presentation.) All that, in turn, means that every transsexual, transgender, cisgender, genderqueer, gay, straight, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, asexual (and any other category you can think of) person is at risk of being harassed and/or ejected because some arbitrary person doesn’t like how they look, unless, of course, we require that every single person prove zie is entitled to use that facility before being allowed to enter. Somehow, I don’t think universal restroom checks are going to fly.
However, even if we get past the problem of deciding who has to prove they are the “right” sex or gender to use a particular facility, what standard do we apply to those people who have been singled out for inspection? If we base access on the person’s ID, we have ceded control over who is a woman or man to the government and/or doctors and therapists. In other words, we have given the “gatekeepers” even more power than they already have. I, for one, am not willing to give anyone the power to decide whether I am a man or a woman. My gender is solely a matter for me to determine, and no one else.
If, on the other hand, we limit access based on genitalia, you have conceded that biology determines gender and forced every pre-op transsexual woman, no matter how committed or close to SRS she is, and no matter how many doctors and therapists (or anyone else) have said that, yes, she is, indeed, a woman, will be forced to use the men’s room. Oh, that is, except for those trans women who are fortunate enough, either because they could afford and have already had FFS, or because they are blessed by genetics and the effects of HRT, to look feminine enough to get past the first line of defense for sex-segregated facilities without being stopped and forced to prove they’re in the right place. And, of course, as others have already pointed out, basing access on genitalia, means that the vast majority of trans men will be forced to use the women’s room. Then we would have the problem of (trans) men in women’s spaces, who most people recognize and accept as men, despite the lack of a penis. Although I haven’t done a survey on this, I suspect there are very few women who want a bearded trans man in the women’s room with them, with or without a penis.
So, as always in the law, it comes down to a problem of line drawing. Where and how do we draw the line on who can access sex-segregated facilities in ways that are both fair and workable. As I’ve tried to show in this comment, I know of no method of drawing that line, other than self-selection, that is (a) practical, (b) not based on the arbitrary decision of some nameless bureaucrat, a doctor, therapist or other professional of some sort, or the person who happens to see me going into the restroom and decides on hir own that I don’t belong there and/or the cop or security guard they call to have me thrown out, and (c) not infected by problems of class and privilege. In the end, any system for drawing that line that I know of, other than self-selection, in one way or another ensconces in law the very bigotry and prejudice over sex and gender that the type of anti-discrimination laws I discussed are designed to end and which harms us all.
So, the bottom line: yes, limits on access to sex-segregated facilities always begins with an assessment of the person’s gender presentation.
I use women’s restrooms.
I don’t use women’s shower facilities. I’ve never met a pre-operative or non-operative trans woman who used women’s locker rooms, although I’m sure there may be a very, very small number who might — but I don’t know of any trans woman who’s tried it. I suspect (but have no empirical evidence to back my supposition) that trans women are not comfortable with their genitalia being exposed in public settings, and/or are aware of how other women might react would be received in women’s facilities if another woman saw male genitalia there.
Again, to personalize the argument, what would be the legal mechanism you would advocate to keep me — a woman who passes as female — out of women’s restrooms?
Since you asked me a personal question, let me ask one back in a similar vein to your question: Did you ever use, prior to your genital reconstruction surgery, public women’s sanitation facilities, such as public women’s restrooms? My guess would be your answer would be yes — am I wrong?
I argue that pre-operative and non-operative transsexual women using women’s sanitation facilities don’t present a danger to non-transgender / non-transsexual women. There is not empirical data that demonstrates that women are less safe in women’s restrooms in states and municipalities with antidiscrimination laws with gender identity protections.
I argue that the arguments that CathrynP and you have put forward towards keeping preoperative and non-operative trans women out of public women’s restrooms would in turn put bearded trans men in women’s restrooms.
I argue also that bathrooms, and sanitary facilities, have been a point of every civil rights discussion, from the Jim Crow south’s segregated restrooms, to the fight for the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) where there was the red herring of unisex bathrooms used against the amendment, to the repeal of DADT that argued gays and lesbians would engage in inappropriate behavior in bathrooms and showers. Bathrooms are very frequently used as a tool to argue against civil rights for minority populations.
I would add this point: Abby was arguing why we want to use inclusive language in civil rights legislation. Public restrooms may be a part of that discussion, but we’re not having what I would consider the underlying point of the discussion — how do we write antidiscrimination legislation that protects the most human beings who belong to minority population without giving protections to criminal behavior? I would argue trans women using public restrooms isn’t criminal behavior, and as a rule isn’t dangerous behavior — although with most scenarios, there will always be exceptions.
Heh
That would certainly be one way to end this entire ordeal — make everyone pass a visual inspection of genitalia prior to entering a restroom.
Ooooh!
We could fold it into the rest of the fear the world legislation passed following 9/11 as a terrorist countermeasure!
Why, just think — no more clandestine meetings in the restrooms by those nameless, faceless individuals who plan to cause harm to others by planting explosive charges in toilets!
(ok, sorry, I haven’t had my tea yet and I’m slightly silly)
I’d like to add a point to your comment, if I may…
The arguments that are being put forth by the aforementioned individuals strikes me as requiring a sense of aversion, an intense dislike for, and/or anxiety regarding trans people or transness in multiple forms, the exception being persons who have had or are irrevocably committed to having surgery.
Would you agree?
My apologies, Abby…
When Toni d’Orsay posted this to her site, I assumed it was a piece written by her, and I have identified it as such in several places now.
Because I think this issue is the critical issue facing the trans community, I am going to re-post the response that I posted on Toni’s site here. Please bear in mind that I mistaken refer here to a reference to the ADA in your article which was actually made in an earlier article on Toni’s site.
The earlier article is at: http://www.thespectrumcafe.com…
locker rooms
the last gym i belonged to (years ago, in boston) had the typical open floor plan (read, communal undressing) but also had a changing booth that any woman uncomfortable with locker room nudity could use. and it did get used. this to me is a simple solution to allow for any woman (cis/trans/intersex) who wants a little privacy to change comfortably. i suppose that in gyms without such spaces, women who want privacy change in the handicapped bathroom stall.
No problem, Gemma.
Thanks for your comment.
To expand on Autumn’s last paragraph above
Any constitutional or legislative civil rights protections in the US that have passed successfully have been inclusive of the entire human race, as Abby noted. I don’t want special rights for any gender identity or expression. I want equal rights for all.
Without equality of rights, any legislative effort is bound to fail under the two rules that Abby explained in the text of the blog. Please go back and read it again if you didn’t understand that concept the first time through.
Finally, can anyone tell me the number of local, regional, or state governments that have actual laws against using “opposite gender” restrooms? These laws rarely survive because they restrict access to facilities for both men and women in emergency situations. Any law that specifically says men cannot enter women’s restrooms would probably be struck down in the courts as discriminatory if it doesn’t ban the inverse.
True
You said, “I suspect (but have no empirical evidence to back my supposition) that trans women are not comfortable with their genitalia being exposed in public settings, and/or are aware of how other women might react would be received in women’s facilities if another woman saw male genitalia there.”
I have a membership at an exercise club here in the Atlanta area and when I arrive, I go to a toilet to change, then don’t change back when I leave. I don’t have a problem disrobing my top, because my C’s look good, and I pass well because of them. (I know. TMI) I have heard of many others who do the same.
Actually
I am fairly certain I have never said that non/pre op transsexual women should be using the mens room. I am concerned about “MEN” using women’s private spaces.
I do have issues with non-op status being an acceptable situation because of someone’s financial situation. That is why I want to try and help persuade employers and insurance companies to include ‘needed’ triadic care in their policies. Forcing someone to live with a birth defect, so horrible, is inhumane.
Before you can be eligible for surgery you must live life in your appropriate gender. I can’t see making someone use the wrong bathroom during that time.
I have taken to referring to people who…
…demand that one must have genital reconstruction surgery to be considered a woman as “genital surgery essentialists.” It seems that whatever terms they use to define themselves — such as women of operative history, women of history, classic transsexuals, true transsexuals, and/or associating with the term “Harry Benjamin Syndrome” — it’s an emphasis on the shape of one’s genitalia, either at one’s birth or after one’s genital reconstruction surgery — that is the determinitive factor in defining an individual as male or female. “Genital surgery essentialists” seems to me to be a neutral term to describing the commonality that runs through all of the above listed identifications (and likely a few more identifications).
I had a friend of mine describe people who reject the transgender as an umbrella term that includes as being one’s who want to set up a heirarchy of trans experience. I don’t completely agree with that assessment as I have met transsexual people who don’t embrace the transgender label for reasons other than “I’m better than those people.” But, both in person and online, I’ve met those who do reject the transgender umbrella because they believe they are superior human beings to crossdressers, drag performers, and genderqueer people.
And for a number of people of all stripes, I do agree aversion to people who are different from them is one of the factors that can be a reason why a person doesn’t embrace ordinary equality for minority populations of human beings.
If someone believes in basic, ordinary equality for human beings, for the most part I can work with that person — whether or not they embrace the sociopolitical transgender community identification, or are a transsexual-who-doesn’t-identify-as-transgender.
I hope that answers your question.
I left wondering
With all the talk of “No woman wants to shower in public with strange men”… do women want to shower in public with strangers period? I know I’m not getting up in the morning thinking “Golly, maybe today is the day we get public showering at work”.
It just seems like more of a “have to” rather than a “want to” kinda thing.
- not particularly trans, but an observation none the less
Indeed!
I have to agree on this, well said and well done!
Excellent post, Abby
Thanks for the inclusive focus!
Who said THAT?
I have never, ever, ever seen or heard ANYONE say that.
Most women are born female and never have genital surgery of any kind.
Who said otherwise?
I’m trying to “educate myself” as I was told to, so if there’s a school of thought that says female-born people are men unless they get phalloplasty to stick a dick on there so they can then be women, I have GOT to read up on it. Sounds fascinating.
Can you provide a link, please?
Give your brain a C.O.L.O.N.I.C.
Call Off Lame Old Nineties Identity Cliches.
So trans-women are not truly female?
Well, in that case we will have to expell the woman of operative history who is on the board of Heterodoxy, Monica.
If they are not “true females” then perforce they ought not be in female space.
These arguments are invariably fraught with twists and contradictions and mythical fallacies from both sides of the divide…and they weaken the import of the message.
How in God’s name do people expect Lesbians to advocate against the sep-fems when there are trans people pointing at a portion of the community and insisting that they are not female?
You are cutting the floor from beneath the positions of your Lesbian allies, when a “Maggie Jamison wanna-be” can quote Monica Helms and claim that “even the tr*nnies say that they aren’t women….”
Jaysus Good Bloody Christ….think about these insults masquarading as rhetoric and the possible import in the hands of others before you all throw them out to wound each other. Don’t hand your opponents weapons to use against your rights later.
Mostly agree.
The only thing I would say to that is that I personally have no problem sharing a public restroom with a man, whether that man is a cross-dresser, or not.
We all know that women’s public restrooms generally have individual, locking stalls, and lewd behavior is lewd behavior no matter the person engaging in such. So long as everyone in the restroom behaves with decorum and dignity, it’s all fine with me. It’s just a toilet, after all, and cross-dressers can often be in danger. I think we can accommodate that. It’s an entirely different thing than a locker room or a shower.
It’s nice to think about educating people, but the sad fact is, they don’t want to be educated.
Do I prefer sharing restrooms? Not particularly, but I’m flexible. Then again, I’m also a lesbian, so what the guys think of how I look isn’t of much concern to me. I’ve got enough to worry about being in there with the rest of the women!
Abby..reading your Topic post, I was stunned..brilliantly presented.
I once got a complaint of a man exiting a woman’s restroom. My academy training (1985) made no mention of a law making this illegal(CA) persay. My first question was “was there a female present in the restroom?” The answer was no. My penal code triage had begun. Without a “victim” in the restroom, there existed the possibility that he might have accidentally pushed through what he thought was the Men’s room. Yes, it can and does happen especially if someone is in a big hurry to “pee”. Now if there had been a female in the restroom, my next question would have been “did he then immediately exit or did he remain?” This of course was to determine “intent”. I told my subordinates to get ID info and release the man who stated he was unaware that he was in the women’s restroom. Yes, I am aware that there are no urinals but he might have needed to go “potty” in a big hurry thereby not noticing. Even if his intent was truly to breach the women’s restroom, being aware of no specific law, I was focused on determining intent of a possible sex criminal act. Without such, there was absolutely nothing I could do except obtain personal info in the event this became a pattern, which of course would then show “intent”. There are always “catch-all” laws designed for non-specific violations such as “disorderly conduct”..etc which of course would need to be substantiated and articulated for legal justification.
This is not to say that all peace officers are non-phobic as I naturally have been (since birth and pre-transition). People in all occupations come in all possible variations. Nonetheless, after reading these mostly outstanding posts I would categorize them as follows: very intelligent and informed, very intelligent and very unrealistic, fairly intelligent and realistic long-term, well intentioned yet not focused on the big picture, and finally the regular “phobia” based on labels/identity. On the last, I personally have come to believe that these postings that pit us against each other are from persons purporting to be but not really “trans male/female”. The consequences of this “intra-phobia” are so lethal to our “community” that I refuse to believe or consider them as genuine…as witnessed by the need for Autumn and other admins to post warnings. This is just my overall observation based on the vitriol so clearly evident now in the “blogsophere”.
I am obviously not an attorney, but I have been in a position to decide who will go to jail and who will not based on my training. This has ranged from minor incidents all the way up to crimes against children—persons who should have never been released in the first place and by virtue of my job I “checked them back in”…not by their volition either. Maybe my perspective can shed some clarity on this whole issue…maybe it won’t since laws vary inter and intrastate.
I once checked out a local YMCA because I was considering membership. I signed in, entered my gender as F, which it is now, and the tour included of course the entire facility including gender-appropriate locker area. Clearly, even without FSS and fortunate to have a full set of hair, I was completely passable. I decided to test the waters…I always realize that since so few persons know “transgender” persons I have the solemn responsibility to educate them so that others will benefit. After the tour, I decided to tell the female guide that I was in transition. Clearly, had I decided to join the gym, I would have said nothing. I told her that my ID gender is female but that I was pre-op. Again…I wanted to see “where we are” as a society since California is a gender-protected state.
She expressed total surprise, and after I assured her that obviously in changing areas I would remain “privately inconspicuous” until GRS, she seemed less welcoming and stated that she would have to discuss this with her manager. Now pre-op or op status is private medical information. Maybe some of you can shed some light as to whether I could have invoked some sort of medical privacy “law” at this point for the purpose of keeping this private between just me and her. Nonetheless as she informed her manager I saw him place both hands on his head which we all know is not a positive or welcoming gesture—-although he was otherwise a nice man. I entered the office and reassured him that my genitalia would never be an issue—-it simply would be foolhardy to display such for obvious reasons. I explained to him that my intent was simply to may good use of the facilities for health reasons only…but that it would be likewise foolhardy to use the men’s locker area with practically 100% passing success. I also informed him that I would use the locker areas probably minimally since my home is very close. He asked me one question “are you a woman? I said yes!”—and that was that. I then offered to him that I need not have revealed my op status but felt it would be more beneficial for everyone to cross this hurdle were it to present itself to him. I also assured him that undoubtedly many trans males/females are already using gender-appropriate areas without issue.
So there are two examples I offer which tie into one of the hotly-debated areas relating to our issues: restroom use and locker room use. Due to employment reasons, I haven’t joined a gym but in the future with my homework behind me, I will be better positioned as to how to proceed. At another health facility, I didn’t offer my op status but all the attendants referred to me as “she”.
So…for those of us who pass…very few obstacles. For those of us who don’t (as most of us in the initial phases of transition)…obstacles abound. The very large picture for everyone is full equality everywhere. However, our focus must, for now, remain on trans protections…at work…restroom access..and common areas. Perhaps enforcement should focus, in the interim, on “display of genitalia” in a a place incongruent with that expected in whatever private area. This would be one way at reaching a temporary compromise..you display your wares in private areas and run the risk of enforcement. Some things have no option A or B solution…an option C must be introduced. Unisex restrooms are ultimately the “final solution” here.
As far as workplace protections…only with legislation enacted that considers a person in transition as the target sex/gender provided valid documentation exists…only then will discriminate job terminations begin to abate.
I realize that there are many ways to interpret my post but I offer it as my view in part of the entire discussion..and not the answer by any means.
“I type 70+ WPM…my fingers get away from me and I do apologize for such a lengthy post”
Ummm, well, err, no. It did not answer the question.
While I can actually read much of the underlying subtextual statements fairly easily, what it reads as is a shifting of the subject in this context.
I asked about the aforementioned individuals, specifically — while I can agree with the generalization regarding their overall efforts when aligned with other people, what you spoke to was more in line with a more broad brush description of a group of people who’s views run oppositional to ours.
And who, not too coincidentally, label the pair of us and others as leaders in the Transgender Borg, while being oblivious to pretty much anything else.
But that brings in other elements that I didn’t want to address — indeed, I think that its a good thing I am not the TOS enforcer here, given your response, lol.
I was asking if you would agree that CathrynP and Dana have made statements which are indicative of aversion — and I would not be adverse to confining it specifically to the suggestions regarding the presence of what they refer to as “male bodied” people in the restroom/showers/locker rooms, and other places of unavoidable nudity.
That said, I understand if you’d rather not answer — the question is an idle one meant to spark thought and consideration of what was said in reference to the TOS.
Now see, that’s usually my trick
to shift the discourse out of the context in order to see if people are paying attention or just saying stuff to be jerks.
I mean, after all, the context borne here contains the presumption that we would be speaking about trans lives, not cis lives, and the question responded to was very carefully constructed contextually.
but it is funny. Much like “surely you’re joking” and “no, I’m not, and don’t call me Shirley” are funny.
It’s Science
I’m talking about skeletons, no longer living people. Male skeletons are different than female skeletons. It’s science. It’s a fact. Ask an anthropologist. If they started off with a male skeleton, then they’ll die with one. It’s a fact you can’t dispute. What was on the skeleton is not anywhere near my point.
What they were in life is up to the individuals. But now, they’re dead. What would they be worrying about after they’re dead? Why are you so upset about dead people? Dead people don’t have rights, so what does skeletons have to do with rights?
I have an idea. If a trans woman is so worried what an anthropologist will call them after they dig up their bones, then maybe they can have the word “Transsexual” engraved on their leg bones. Certain intersex conditions may have different bone structure and anthropologists may not always be able to tell.
All I was pointing out is pure science. How can you read so much negative misinformation in a pure science observation?
I didn’t like this either.
I for one am a true female. I’m accepted as such everywhere from Pagan women’s circles to a Catholic women’s college that is rather enthusiastic about having me as a student. The burden of proof is on anyone disagreeing with me. ;)
That’s you’re life
I am truly happy for you and how your life is going. But, what about your skeleton? Will it pass as female? Do you have a birth canal in your hip bone? Will you care what an anthropologist calls your skeleton a 1000 years from now? Just wondering.
Only people “anthropologist approved” can use Banos para Damas?
Oh my, I’ll call up my anthropologist and feminist friend at Brandeis and line you all up when you need to pee…..
Of course not, Maura.
If the ones who get the operation are then truly women, it means that those who do not, are not and will never be.
Uh-oh, can’t let THAT happen!
So the goal-posts move. For the never-ops, it’s still just the clothes and makeup that makes the woman. For the post-ops, the threshold changes to something uncorrectable – that also leaves the never-ops as not-women-at-all in the process too, oops.
So it’s not about being “truly women” at all, it’s about making sure no one else can be.
Add the straw-man “Genitalia Surgery Essentialist” concept, and that rules out everyone with vagina.
The only women left have penises.
Get it?
Thanks
Now I have to pee.
It’s all madness
I feel like the doctor in the closing scene of Bridge on the River Kwai; who looks at the devestation and death, and cries out “It’s all madness”
Aha! So that’s it.
I have wondered ever since I got here, why it is that some factions of the TG-identified contingent are so resistant to simply being classified as female like the rest of us. Now I know. Thank you for explaining it.
Let’s take it easy here
It seems clear to me that Monica’s comment about anthropologists wasn’t meant to erase anyone’s identity as female, but simply to point out that, because of her exposure to testosterone, at some point in the distant future, a late-transitioning trans woman might be erroneously classified as female based on her skeleton. As such, her comment was off topic. How about if not allow things like that to derail us from talking about the issues raised in this post? Anyone who wants to talk about anthropologists, bone structure and identity labels is free to take it elsewhere.
And, Monica, while I appreciate your attempts at humor and irony, this obviously isn’t the place for it.
Finally, before anyone objects, no, I’m not a barista here and have no power to moderate comments. Nonetheless, I don’t like the direction the responses to Monica’s comment are taking and would love to see everyone get back on topic.
Way to seriously ignore context.
bad faith.
Come on — stick to the topic as a whole instead of looking for the easy shots.
Sorry
I’m sorry about having a sense of humor. I found out decades ago that the term “humorous transsexual” is almost an oxymoron. So, you’re right. This isn’t the place for humor.
The leader of TAVA
should not make “jokes” that can be directly used to deny needed services to veterans.
Given the TG community’s suicide rate when services are denied, your “joke” wasn’t all that different from Tracy Morgan’s. You might want to address that.
What?
What the hell are you talking about?
Perhaps a confusion
Sometimes people don’t always update their knowledge of who’s what when things change.
I don’t know.
Personally, I plan on never dying ;)
I feind this rather sexist…
“We’re women!” Not all women like playing dress up or make up or clothes or fashion. Your comment that “We’re women” smacks of ‘Women like clothes and purses and dolls’.
Autumn, I like you and all…
But I think you go a little overboard with the trapdoors. This battle can never be resolved if people are unable to or afraid to share their views. I understand that there’s sometimes a fine line and that it’s not always easy to tell the difference between a controversial statement and a thinly-veiled flame, but if people are forced to be too careful about what they say, it seriously hampers any genuine debate. JM-not-so-humble-O.
There’s a difference between “fun” and “necessary.”
And honestly? The other women in my family – not speaking for Monica here – also enjoy clothes and fashion as a means of blowing off stress from our lives – I’m a college student nearing the “end” of her transition (though growing up and learning to be yourself never truly ends); my mom’s a nurse; my sisters are a doctor and a lawyer, and my sister-in-law is a first grade teacher.
Ah yes, the Iranian Solution.
“We’ll pay for GRS, but you’re not allowed to not get it! Only socially normative binary identities are allowed!”
Did you step down from TAVA?
If so, apologies. If you are no longer with any organization that represents any other people, and speaking solely as a private individual on behalf of yourself, I do genuinely apologize. I just Googled you and remembered you from the recent VA policy announcement and thought you were still with TAVA from that, my mistake. Perhaps I was not thorough enough or missed a memo. This is not my primary issue, getting rid of Prop 8 is, that’s what I came here for.
Even at that, stabbing some of your own former constituents in the back socially and politically, while taunting them with their future physical bones and calling it a joke… I’m still not seeing the funny part. Seriously.
Science
I intend to be. :)
That aside, I hope that one day, society will catch up with science and fully embrace the fact that sex differentiation has several components–chromosomes, endocrine profile, brain sex, gonads, genitalia, etc.–and all of our laws and policies recognize and take into account this complexity.
I’ve never understood…
…why anyone would want to shower in public with strangers, regardless of sex and/or gender.
I’m totally into the concept of privacy.
Restrooms
I have had non-trans female friends tell me that they have on occasion used men’s restrooms when the women’s was either out-of-order or had a long line waiting at the door.
It is appropriate
Inappropriate? In what way? I believe it is an important consideration. When a proposal is made, the ramifications must be considered, and if there are weaknesses in a proposal, then discussion of those weaknesses cannot be simply waved away by calling such discussion inappropriate. This discussion is not beyond the scope of your post, either, as it applies directly to the consequences of implementing the proposal you make.
Isn’t considering all the possible issues part of what we are doing here at The Blend?
I can see reasons why trans women who have not yet had SRS (and isn’t it true that some trans women intend never to have such surgery?) should not be housed with other women. There are obvious concerns for safety, as well as considerations regarding such things as pregnancy. People should not be procreating in prison.
It seems that the proposal is a really good start but not fully realized in a way that would take such issues into consideration.
Trans men in prisons
I’m a man with a vagina, and personally, I’d be terrified to be housed with men who don’t have vaginas. The would be a recipe for certain rape.
science?
I believe according to Krogman the most sexually dimorphic part of human skeletal anatomy is the pelvis followed by the skull. Pelvic skeletal “sex determination” is 95% accurate. Skull metrics only yield a ninety percent accuracy. So, if pelvic remains are available for analysis, that means in five percent of the cases a forensic anthropologist will not be able to accurately determine the sex of the persons remains. If only the skull is available, in ten percent of the cases involved, it will not be possible to determine the sex of the person who the remains belonged to. Humans are not strictly sexually dimorphic. There is a great deal of sex diversity. A person is a lot more than a bag of bones. A person’s sex is written all over a person’s body. Anatomy is important. Obviously, genital anatomy is a crucial aspect to consider when determining a person’s sex. The incidence of transsexualism is much lower than five percent. There is a reason a person is called transsexual. Transsexual people have body parts which are incongruent. Modern science and medicine makes it possible to bring those parts more closely into congruence. Don’t believe everything you see on Crime Scene Investigations.
What concerns?
What concerns and for the safety of whom?
Huh?
What do you mean “not allowed to get it”?
Missing a negative
She said “not allowed to not get it.”
Still Vague
Just because I’m still involved with TAVA doesn’t clarify what you were saying and what part of what I said that caused you to say that. I’m sorry, but I left my Rosetta Stone at home, so I can’t decipher you cryptic message. Wait while I fire up my Big Blue. Maybe it can figure it out.
Post-”corrected?”
That’s part of the problem, not the solution.
We need full recognition of sex/gender based on the fact that we do not ever belong to the initially-assigned sex. There is enough scientific evidence out there to support this.
However, that may be enough only for an “other.” Being born not a member of the initially-assigned sex, may not automatically entitle us to the other assignment.
The definition of what constitutes sufficient “correction” can create a quagmire – some cannot have GRS for medical reasons. Should HRT be sufficient? Should some less invasive surgical procedure be a prerequisite for full legal protection?
THe issue of what is sufficient “correction” to constitute transition permitting moving from “other” to the “correct sex” should be between the individual and a competent medical professional.
As to “no need” for ENDAs and GENDAs? – the fact that one is born different is, unfortunately, a reason for bigots to act out their prejudices – and notwithstanding a reassignment of legal sex on a birth certificate or other identifying papers, there is still prejudice out there, and still a reason for human rights law protections.
Well, as a scientist
I feel obligated to point out that traits that we think are sexually dimorphic are very often not as monolithic as we’d like to think… instead they’re normally distributed, usually bimodally with each peak being the average for each sex. But there can be a lot of variance. Just like men are on average taller than women, but there can be extremely short men and extremely tall women. The same goes for many other “sexually dimorphic” traits. Hell, why do you think cis women have to get C-sections?
I’d also like to point out that while we usually conceptualize bone as a sort of static, “dead” tissue in the body,it’s actually being constantly remodeled by osteoblasts and osteoclasts, with a turnover rate of about 3 years. So it can change. Whether that leads to any significant change is a very interesting question, but I doubt any data really exist for trans people, so it’s still kinda up in the air.
Moderation warning, Absentee Thoughtlord.
This very obviously is a “to the person,” ad hominem comment regarding Monica Helms the person instead of the ideas she may have put forward.
Ad hominem commenting — “attacking the person instead of attacking [hir] argument” commenting — is specifically prohibited by the Pam’s House Blend Terms And Conditions Of Service (TOS), section A, line item 9.
This is your fair warning.
I agree.
Discussing genetics and bones isn’t discussing the issues and ideas put forward in the original article.
Absentee Thoughtlord, this is trolling.
Trolls and trolling, per the link in the PHB TOS, is defined as follows:
This is your fair warning on the behavior.
Yes
ab0ng, my apologies for not responding to your earlier question.
Yes, the sex stereotyping theory of interpreting bans on sex discrimination applies equally to men who aren’t deemed to be masculine enough, or are considered too feminine to be a man (whichever way you want to phrase it). As I pointed out in my post, Title VII and similar statutes ban discrimination against anyone based on sex; they do not just ban discrimination against women.
Moderation Warning, Absentee Thoughtlord
Trolls and trolling, per the link in the PHB TOS, is defined as follows:
This is a second warning on trolling behavior.
And, this subthread…
…really is far off-topic.
Hir and Zie?
I’m surprised that no one commented about how this post is using a gender deconstructionist argument to erase both Transsexual and Transgender identities. Personally I find the use of the terms Hir and Zie offensive when applied to me and I would guess the vast majority of mainstream America would.Is Hir and Zie accepted language can the words be found in a well established dictionary? Honestly the only thing new I found about this post was someone thinking its acceptable to use gender deconstructionist words on all of us. As far as I can tell this post violates your terms of service yet I’m sure they’ll be some excuse made up to justify its extremely offensive content.
I looked up Hir and Zie
I went to Merriam Webster online and both words are non existent in Proper English. Since they are not found in proper English one has to guess where these words come from and the only time I’ve ever heard them used were by gender deconstructionist Leslie Feinberg and since she is an admitted communist they very well could be of communist origin. If that the case they would be extra offensive to me since I’m a Veteran of the Occupation of Berlin.
Third warning on trolling.
Again, trolls and trolling, per the link in the PHB TOS, is defined as follows:
This is a third warning on trolling. Antonia explained why this particular comment of your is trolling: you shifted the discourse out of context in intentionally ignoring the trans specific context of the question and answer. Your comment was “extraneous” and “off-topic” in an obvious attemt to disrupt on-topic discussion.
This is your last warning on trolling.
Actually the’re derived from Dutch and German
feminine gender pronouns
Dutch: Zie, haar
German: Sie, Ihr
Off-topic commenting.
The subject of the PHB diary to which this comment thread is connected isn’t about gender neutral pronouns, but about how “transsexual” and “transgender” are irrelevant to civil rights.
Please take your comments on gender neutral pronouns to an open thread, or a diary that you submit as a blender diary.
Well no
They’re gender neutral pronouns being used to refer to a group of people that use different pronouns to refer to themselves… much of the of the discussion is applicable to both trans women AND trans men.
A followup
As the discussions regarding this post have continued here, on Facebook (up to almost 200 comments there so far) and on my blog, I have clarified my thinking concerning sex-segrated facilities, such as restrooms and locker rooms. This morning, during a discussion prompted by a link that Zoe Brain posted on her Facebook Wall (https://www.facebook.com/Zoe.of.Oz/posts/178962902161538), I posted the following as my “bottom line” thinking on this issue.
In subsequent discussions on Zoe’s thread about how to accommodate women’s concern for their safety if people perceived to be male are allowed into women’s facilities, I have expanded on these thoughts, so, if you’re interested and you have access to Zoe’s Wall (I don’t know what her privacy settings are for that thread), you may want to go over and check out those discussions. Someday, I hope to tie these thoughts together in a single essay, but this is all I have time for now.
This is technically an off-topic comment in an off topic comment subthread; however…
…I’ll answer your comment.
Behind the scenes I’ve recentlytalked to Pam about trans-related, as well as other problematic comment threads at PHB, and we’re not happy with the way the discussions have turned of late. In many of our threads, the topics of particualr diaries aren’t really being debated, but off-topic commenting, trolling, flaming, and other ad hominem attacks have become the norm in our comment threads.
Well, that’s not a norm we’re willing to accept. We’ve described this blog as a virtual coffee house, and we want to have this be a blog where blenders can vigorously, but civilly, disagree on issues, but then come back on future days to again sit at the virtual tables and engage in civil, vigorous discussion.
As mentioned in a long ago diary, we aim to make the PHB comment threads a transgender friendly safe space. It will never completely be a safe space for transgender identified people, but we can make it safer.
Pam and I have been ill a lot in the past few months, and now that we’re — at least for the moment — in better health, we’re going to look keeping our comment threads a bit more civil — especially when trans people and issues are discussed.
If you want to discuss our TOS further, please feel free to take it to our next open thread, or write a blender diary on the topic. This particular comment thread is not going to be about critiquing how baristas are going to implement our changes to the PHB TOS.
Far be it from me…
…to lecture you on the topic of legal identity recognition, Joann, but I think that a recognition of the fact that we do not ever truly belong to our condtionally/coercively assigned sex is only part of the picture.
I think it is important to re-iterate that while there is mounting evidence sufficient to justify this point of view, that we should also consider that under no circumstances are any of us talking about legal sex/gender identity recognition based merely upon whim.
I try to remind people that the process of changing the sex/gender marker on one’s legal documents is much more complicated than simply wlaking into the Bureau of Vital Statistics or the DMV and telling them to change it.
Even in the absence of surgical history, the responsible means of changing such markers where we cannot get them removed entirely, is by submitting to a legally-binding process of swearing and documenting, as we do in New Jersey when changing our Driver’s Licenses, or when dealing with the Department of State when changing our US Passports, that our gender identity “is that of our target gender, and that it can be reasonably expected to remain as such for the foreseeable future”. This has to be corroborated by a qualified medical and/or psychiatric practitioner. Signing this form is equivalent to signing an affidavit. It is a legally-binding statement that subjects one to the penalties of perjury and fraud, and possibly worse, should the individual prove not be in earnest.
That can, and should, be the standard that ought to be adopted. I don’t see why this standard would not offer sufficient protection for everyone concerned.
I also want to point out…
…that the entire point of Abby’s article is to demonstrate the futility of defining specific categories in anti-discrimination legislation. We do not need to define what constitutes “male” and what constitutes “female” in order to protect people against sex and/or gender discrimination, and it would, in fact, undermine those protections if we attempted to do so. Therefore, worries about what constitutes sufficient evidence to push one out of a third sex/gender category and into the “other” traditional binary category are not questions which need answering.
Incarceration of any kind…
…is a recipe for certain rape. Avoid, if possible.
Well, if that isn’t the best example of what we’re getting at here, then I don’t know what is.
The WPATH Standards of Care, are not, and have never been, anything but guidelines, guidelines which WPATH have revised six times over the course of their history to be more compliant with current research and current public opinion. They are not accepted by the entirety of the medical and psychiatric establishments as the absolute definitive and last word on the subject of transition-related healthcare, and you should make no mistake as to the purpose of the Standards of Care. They do not exist as much to facilitate the care of transitioners so much as they exist to indemnify the liability of practitioners.
It seems fairly well evident that those who attach so strongly to the Standards of Care are, in the main, those who were treated under past, more strict versions of the SOC, as well as those who are simply uncomfortable with the idea of, or unable to fathom, the formation of identity in the absence of external validation. While I am sensitive to the needs of the latter group, it should be made abundantly clear that the Standards of Care do not in any way represent the only path of validity. Nor does the current version of the Standards of Care necessarily read as some of its supporters seem to believe, as was the subject of at least one workshop at the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference earlier this month.
On the point of evidence, one of the main threads in this discussion is the demonstration that there exists no standard of evidence such that would be sufficient to satisfy all interested parties, and the legal solution to this problem has already been enacted in various jurisdictions around the country. The best way to handle these things is by responsibly submitting oneself to a legally-binding declaration of sex and/or gender. I have done this, myself. If I am lying or in any other way not in earnest about my womanhood, then I am subject to the punishments associated with the charges of perjury and fraud. Why is this not sufficient?
Your example of ERA is not compelling. As someone who is well old enough to remember the political battle over ERA, I think that you are missing several important facets of the history of equal rights legislation and jurisprudence in this country, not least of which is Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. A full discussion of the merits of ERA would necessarily have to delve into theories of Constitutional interpretation, construction, and legitimacy, and this is quite simply not the venue for that.
Please cite one example of where the modern push for gender variance equality has eroded any previous, explicit legislative or case law protections for transsexual people. I have challenged opponents to cite such law before, and no one has ever presented any such evidence.
Be careful Abby…
…you’re going to frighten people with such radical talk. :P
First warning to me.
I went to the grocery store, came home and put my groceries away, had a late breakfast, logged in and all three of them were there, bang-bang-bang. OK, you made your point the first time, but I haven’t posted anything since that first warning.
I am on a shared IP address, in an apartment complex. If you’re gonna ban me just flash the card and freeze the login, I don’t know who else uses the IP and whether they log in to here or not.
Getting back on topic, isn’t the entire point of this article about how to convince me, and people like me, to be comfortable with members of your community being in isolated spaces like bathrooms and shower rooms with us?
Do you really believe, as a representative of that community, that intimidating me into silence our outright gagging me and throwing me into a trap-door pit is the way to make other women think that you’re safe to be around?
It depends on context
In general I don’t think someone should be discriminated upon. But I think if someone is just making a stink about gender norms for the sake of it like some one applying to be a hooters girl when they themselves are say a mustached fifty five year old man then sorry not going to support you. Or a middle aged man pretending to be a lesbian blogger or Syrian hostage again not going to support you. Or A lesbian with a radical womyn born womyn belief system that’s trying to out butch the other lesbians but in reality has no desire to really transistion to male again sorry but not going to support them.The simple fact is your argument if applied to its fullest would cover the people I listed.I think your argument points to why there is such a large and wide divide growing in the Transsexual/Transgender/Genderqueer communities.Many of the needs in each group just are to far in conflict with each other to overcome. I still can’t believe you used Hir and Zie.
Um, no.
Abby’s point is that the arguments over labels and groupings isn’t part of the fight for equal rights.
The point you are referring to is a separate question, and involves an aspect of strategy.
Already covered.
Lisa, aside from the idea that no one ought, in my opinion, to work at Hooters, we have a long history of legislation in this country protecting the rights of employers to establish beauty standards for those occupations where physical attractiveness is an integral part of the job. A similar situation applies to dress codes. Employers are free to enforce gendered codes of dress, so long as employees are allowed to adopt the mode which suits them.
Men pretending to be lesbian bloggers or Syrian hostages are covered by statutes against fraud, one would surmise, if indeed such activities are illegal in the first place.
There is no wide and growing divide in the community. All there is is a very small, very vocal minority which has recently been allowed to dominate the discussion, if for no other reason than that the rest of us have been too busy fighting the real battles securing our rights to counter their strident outbursts of irrationality.
You’ll have to ask Abby as to the intent of her article.
As for me…well, you stated:
My response would be a Bayard Rustin quote from his essay From Montgomery To Stonewall:
If I paraphrased that quote of Bayard Rustin to reflect on transgender people, I would paraphrase it this way:
Due to the nature of your comments not just in this comment thread, but on other comment threads on trans issues and people, Absentee Thoughtlord, I don’t believe my trans peers and I are in a position to convince you of anything. But that’s not our job — trans people’s job isn’t to get you to love trans people, but I believe instead it’s trans people’s job to control the extent to which people can publicly manifest antitransgender sentiment.
I’ll make the argument that the kind of arguments you’ve been making are Derailing For Dummies style arguments: If You Won’t Educate Me How Can I Learn, If You Cared About These Matters You’d Be Willing To Educate Me, and You’re Being Hostile.
It appears to me that you’re attempting to shift responsibility to trans people in general, and me in particular, to convince you to change your point of view on trans people and trans issues. However, the responsibility for the viewpoints you hold true, and express, belong completely to you.
And again, this is all off topic. We’re not discussing ideas put forward in the Abby’s essay, but instead discussing behavior in this PHB comment thread, and discussing your commentary about troll icons being dropped for your comments in this comment thread.
It’s really simple. If you want to participate in the Pam’s House Blend comment threads, read the PHB TOS, and then comment in a manner that’s consistent with the rules outlined in the TOS.
So, now we can get back to discussing the ideas that Abby put forward in her essay, right?
Moderation warning.
Lisa11b, I stated to you in an earlier comment in this comment thread:
You then made the comment:
You made this comment approximately two hours after being warned about threadjacking regarding gender neutral pronouns.
Since you’ve also had a recent, previous issue with following the PHB TOS, the trap door activated, good-bye.
For everyone
Universal safety. For everyone. Just like the best part of Abby’s proposal, safety concerns should apply to everyone.
I will assume that the questions were sincere and not a disingenuous attempt at baiting; however, a discussion of specifics might take this thread off-topic, which I do not wish to do.
For those of us who don’t Facebook…
Could you please post your thoughts in this thread? Thanks.
No,
as Toni said, the point of my essay was, to demonstrate why the debate over labels is irrelevant to the fight for equal rights for trans peoople. I also proposed a method of resolving the concerns regarding access to sex-segregated facilities like restrooms and locker rooms that I believe is workable and reasonable, regardless of whether you, personally, are comfortable with that solution or with the presence of trans people in those spaces when you are.
As Autumn pointed out, it’s a waste of energy to try to change the views of those who clearly oppose our rights. Instead, all we can hope to do is pass laws that protect people against unfair discrimination and hope that succeeding generations will be more accepting.
History lesson
One of the first lawsuits regarding appearance was Price Waterhouse v Hopkins 1989.
Ann Hopkins was denied a promotion because her supervisors wanted her to “to walk more femininely, wear makeup, have her hair styled, and wear jewelry.”, which was tantamount to sex stereotyping, and can be used in subsequest suits regarding transfolk, even though Ms. Hopkins wasn’t.
This was set back in 2007 with a suit against Harrah’s Casino lost by Darlene Jespersen, who after 20 years with Harrah’s refused to wear makeup and was fired.
Just recently, famed attorney Gloria Allred is representing nine cocktail waitresses fired by Resorts Casino in Atlantic City over sex and age discrimination over the new flapper-style uniforms no normally-sized women could wear. These things are cut so deep in the back, your butt crack would show!
Lawsuits over dress codes are literally a hit-and-miss proposition, and sometimes gender differences are allowed, some aren’t. Best way with codes is to have the employees wear the same type of uniform, especially in retail and service industry. I bet Resorts Casino wouldn’t force males to wear the uniforms they’re being sued over.
Not what i was talking about.
As a long-time resident of the Atlantic City area, and having several friends who have actually done the job, I’m quite familiar with how the cocktail waitresses are forced to dress.
That, however, isn’t what I was talking about. Employers are perfectly within their rights to have appropriate gendered dress codes, and in the case of a transitioning woman, the employer has a right to hold the employee to the female dress code. For good examples of such gendered dress codes look at the uniform standards for airline flight crew.
Employment where standards of physicality or beauty are an integral part of the job is also excepted from anti-discrimination statutes on those grounds, such as the requirements for being a fashion model.
Cocktail waitressing is quite a bit different, as is the Hopkins case The essential part of the job is serving, or being a business executive, not looking good. This is absolutely no different from the outrageous standards that were previously enforced against airline cabin crew.
Umm…
“People with male anatomy have no business in woman only space, they pose a potential danger which is the reason for sex segregated space in the first place.”
So when you were pre-op and living your Real Life Test according to the Harry Benjamin Standards for a period of at least one year, preferably two, you feel that you posed a potential danger to the other women in the rest room because of your anatomy? Or did you use the male-assigned facilities for your entire pre-op Transition period? Or are you saying that you should have been hounded out of the women’s restroom or even arrested when you were pre-op and in your Real Life Test? I can’t quite unravel the tangled knot of intersecting privilege that is your apparent position.
For the record, I transitioned long ago in the early Eighties, had SRS in ’85, and unlike you, I recognize that I was an incredibly lucky and privileged person to have the resources to make that happen, even back in a more prosperous time. I don’t begrudge my fellow trans women who have not been blessed by the incredible luck that befell me. I celebrate the bravery that is the stuff that makes their lives possible.
I use women’t restrooms, too
And that doesn’t begin to deal with cis-women with facial hair…
I’ve been accosted in restrooms many times when I’ve got a 5-o’clock shadow, or when I’m simply tired of shaving and take a day or two off. I certainly wouldn’t like being sent to the men’s room.
But I have been known to “hijack” the men’s room when the line for the women’s is long & there’s nobody in the men’s room.
Excellent Post
Wonderful explanation on anti-discrimination laws, their constitutional consequences and how they effect us all.
Thanks.
I am pretty sure I was responding to a comment from my friend Cathy and not directly to the Abby’s article. If it showed up as a top-level comment, I’m sorry.
I don;t feel lectured, I feel amplified. :)
Thanks.
Challenging someone
to cite a law that doesn’t exist is a foolish way to score points.
I offer a counter-challenge. Show me where the modern push for gender variance equality has succeeded in those same areas. Because of the modern perspective regarding the entire umbrella term, any opposition to equality legislation simply has to open their mouth and state two simple words: “Bathroom Privilege”.
There is enough case evidence regarding the sexual predation of men in women’s rooms, dressing as women to give weight and credence to those two words.
And!
No equality organization has formulated a strong enough retort to those words, yet.
As far as your disagreement with the Standards of Care, you claim “… it should be made abundantly clear that the Standards of Care do not in any way represent the only path of validity. Nor does the current version of the Standards of Care necessarily read as some of its supporters seem to believe…” and that “They do not exist as much to facilitate the care of transitioners so much as they exist to indemnify the liability of practitioners.”
Now those two statements I feel fall right to the heart of the main disagreements Umbrella users and Rejecting-The-Umbrella users have with each other. I look at it very simply: To be trans* you must transition. If you aren’t transitioning, you aren’t trans*. How fast or how slow that occurs is completely personal, and anyone who attempts to judge another’s rate of transition is incorrect.
I didn’t attempt to make a compelling example with ERA. I’m well aware there were several other factors involved in its failure, but the fact remains that it did fail and that the main gist of ERA was to codify into law equality.
Query…
please define “transition” in the context of that statement (that is, how you use it).
I’m asking because there are issues relating to the perception of transition as a concept that differ between various groups of trans people.
The bathroom meme
Actually, Lisentia, despite the vehemence with which our opponents scream “bathroom privilege,” that argument isn’t having very much success. So far, this year alone, it has failed to stop 3 states – Hawaii, Nevada and Connecticut – from passing gender identity anti-discrimination statutes. That argument has also failed to garner enough support to stop local gender identity protections in Gainesville, FL (http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Gainesville_Transgender_Anti-Discrimination_Ordinance_Referendum_%282009%29), Kalamazoo, MI (http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs059/1102236947388/archive/1102805726994.html), and Bowling Green, OH (http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?id=544981). So, despite your claim, we’ve somehow managed to come up with a good enough response to that argument to have a pretty good track record. It’s true that that’s probably the most difficult obstacle that we have to overcome, but it’s not stopping us, but let’s not make it out to be a bigger problem than it actually is in practice.