31 Responses to UN Human Rights High Commissioner: Investigations Must Go To Top Political Levels

1. acquarius74 August 27th, 2009 at 5:38 pm «

   Here is the link to the original news release on this by the UN.
2. Jim White August 28th, 2009 at 5:40 am «

   “That is international law on accountability — that you do not stop at the foot soldiers, you go right up to the ultimate authority that is legally responsible.”

   “And these would include those who devised the policy, those who ordered it,” said Pillay,

   Wow, I just love that part. Great diary!
• acquarius74 August 28th, 2009 at 6:00 am «

  Thanks, Jim. I just hope that the “friends” don’t block vote against anything the UN tries to do to bring about uncovering this mess completely – not just the grunts who carried out the orders.

  This diary is really bluebutterfly’s; I just posted it.

  Check this link for the statement presented to congress by Sam Provance. It clearly shows what happened to the ‘grunts’ who stood against the torture, and how those who commanded it were protected.

  scout
3. ART45 August 28th, 2009 at 7:42 am «

   The first step, I believe, is to go after Yoo and Bybee.

   They are no better than the top Nazi lawyers and judges, IMO.

   Then go after the criminals who pulled their strings.

   Establishing the criminality of the Yoo and Bybee opinions is the crucial first step.
• acquarius74 August 28th, 2009 at 8:02 am «

  I agree, Art45, but somehow we must unearth Addington’s heavy influence (control ?) of those who “legalized” torture, thus giving that phony “good faith” leg to excuse torture. Addington’s part is something everybody knows but seems none can prove.

  I keep remembering something Addington said when he finally testified before the House Judiciary Committee. I think it was Conyers who asked him what part he had in composing the OLC memos. He answered something to the effect that was Yoo’s job, “I was more involved with the CIA”. Maybe some of that black ink in the IG report would reveal Addington’s involvment in the CIA’s torture program. Will we ever know?
• bluebutterfly August 28th, 2009 at 4:16 pm «

  Maybe if Yoo or Byee are ever charged. They will sing the ‘just following Andington’s and Rumsfeld’s orders defense”.
  ********
  “And they were also detaining people, because I believe that Rumsfeld’s first goal there was — he didn’t trust the CIA, he didn’t trust their interrogation, he didn’t trust what they were doing — so he wanted his own activity, he wanted his own action. That’s one of the reasons that the procedures that the President, for example, had confined to a very select group of “high-value detainees” and to just the CIA as the instrument of interrogation — that’s how that migrated over to the Defense Department, essentially through Rumsfeld’s distrust of the CIA, and, frankly, bureaucratic jealousy, and a grab for power. And so Rumsfeld wanted his people doing the same thing, and Jim Haynes, his lawyer in the Defense Department, was perfectly willing to go over to David Addington, and [John] Yoo and [Jay] Bybee and the rest, and craft his own legal views for justifying what the Defense Department then struck out to do. “

  http://www.andyworthington.co……-part-one/
• bluebutterfly August 28th, 2009 at 4:49 pm «

  James Comey and Patrick Philbin know who said what and when. Harriet Meyers and Addington are mentioned on page 2 for putting pressure on Bradbury. Comey mentions on page 7 that there is a video of a session; sure would like to know who has custody of that.
  **********
  “As Justice Department lawyers debated the use of brutal interrogation techniques in April and May 2005, James B. Comey, the deputy attorney general, wrote a series of e-mail messages to Chuck Rosenberg, his chief of staff, about his views on the legal memorandum as they were being written, as well as his conversations with other department officials. “

  http://documents.nytimes.com/j…..ons/page/1
4. ondelette August 28th, 2009 at 11:00 am «

   I think we need an investigation at the top, and, as I have said elsewhere, I think we need to try an “innocent man.” That means someone who, in good faith, used the S.O.P. for disobeying an unlawful order, was assured of it’s lawfulness, and committed torture or CIDT as a result. I believe the latter because I believe there are flaws in the U.S. implementation of the Convention Against Torture requirement that following orders not be an excuse. I believe that would do it. It would also expose the numbers better than just going after the guys at the top.

   In addition to the world, and Americans in particular, knowing what was done, I believe it is crucial to find out who tried to stop it, who tried to question orders, who tried to blow whistles, and what happened to them when they did. I believe there are a lot of such people, and that we need them to come forward.

   Finally, I believe we need to follow the letter of the treaty, and make the first step in responding to credible allegations of torture the arrest of those alleged to have perpetrated it, in all cases, and as far up the chain as that implies. Only then do we have reasonable assurances to the torture victims that they can come forward without fear. There is yet another problem with the U.S. implementation of the treaty in that. The TVPA (Torture Victims Protection Act) has a statute of limitations. It should not, as the average time it takes a torture victim to come forward, worldwide, is 9.7 years, and the statute of limitations is 10.
• acquarius74 August 28th, 2009 at 11:54 am «

  Thank you, ondelette. Please see my #3 for one testimony to the House Judiciary Committee by Sam Provance, a Military Intelligence ‘computer guy’ stationed at Abu Ghraib a short time before and during the photo scandal. He was coerced, threatened, disparaged, demoted and finally booted out of the service.

  I think that in the articles by/about Ali Soufan he indicated that several of the CIA interrogators at GITMO did refuse to use the ‘enhanced’ interrogation techniques. Who they were may be impossible to learn.
• acquarius74 August 28th, 2009 at 12:14 pm «

  Ondelette, it is ridiculous that there is a statute of limitations on torture. Certainly not on the murder of a captive’s mind, which has been the result of some we know about and some we don’t.

  Who can file a legal action on behalf of KSM’s small children? Certainly not he. There should not be a statute of limitations on the capture, rendition, torture, disappearance and/or murder of children.
• bluebutterfly August 28th, 2009 at 3:32 pm «

  Proof that the CIA knew how close to death they brought prisoners with their cold water torture.
  *************
  “The 2005 CIA manual refers to the Transport Canada publication “Survival in Cold Waters: Staying Alive” to set the limits on cold water exposure. The 92-page Transport Canada document, which is available online, was written for seafarers and boaters and outlines conditions that can induce hypothermia and lead to death.

  Canada’s Foreign Affairs department says it’s aware of reports that Transport Canada material has been used by the CIA.

  “This is a regrettable use of a publicly available document intended to save lives,” the department said in a statement to CBC News.

  Manitoba professor Gordon Giesbrecht’s research on cold water survival helped form the CIA manual. He said it is disturbing to think his work may be used to cause pain.

  “It’s very upsetting,” he said. “

  http://news.sympatico.msn.cbc……d-water841
• shekissesfrogs August 28th, 2009 at 10:38 pm «

  They are Nazi brethren.
  Technical Cold water torture was used in the same manner in which it came into being.
  Paraphrased:

  Hubertus Strughold was a German Nazi scientist who supervised the medical experiments at Dachau concentration camp during 1941 and 1942 into the reactions of the human body to low pressure, cold, hypothermia and re-warming using prisoners.

  Strughold was never convicted of his war crimes and after the Second World War like many other Nazi scientists he joined the USAAF to work as a scientist, his research being used (unsuccessfully) as the basis for the American air-sea-rescue service until a British scientist realised that people rescued from cold water need to be kept horizontal to minimise the risk of a heart attack –

  Strughold was named chief scientist of the American Aerospace Medical Division In 1961 and received The Americanism Medal from the Daughters Of The American Revolution.

  In 1985, the Texas Senate declared June the 15th 1985 as Dr. Hubertus Strughold Day.
  The American aerospace Medical Association presents the Hubertus Strughold Award each year for dedication and outstanding contributions in advancing the frontiers of Space Medicine, for sustained contributions to further the goals of the Space Medicine Branch and to whom best exemplifies the ideals of Hubertus Strughold

  Aren’t ya proud?
• shekissesfrogs August 28th, 2009 at 10:49 pm «

  This research was taken up only 20 years ago by the Canadian doctor Giesbrech. He said “It’s not like some brand new technique that they stole off the Canadians.”
• acquarius74 August 29th, 2009 at 8:01 am «

  Thank you for this very informative comment, shekissesfrogs. More people need to inform themselves of this ugly chapter in our history – the study of Evil taught by the most vile instructors brought into the USA against the immigration laws.
• bluebutterfly August 28th, 2009 at 2:56 pm «

  “Lawrence Wilkerson: My initial source was immediate, and it was from the conversations that took place every morning without fail, sometimes at the weekend but always Monday through Friday, at 8.30, in the Deputy’s Conference Room in the State Department, with the Secretary [Colin Powell] and the Deputy [Richard Armitage] assembled and some 50-odd undersecretaries, assistant secretaries, office directors etc. We went around the table with everyone with a dog in the fight, which was most of the undersecretaries and the assistants getting his or her three or four minutes, and the Secretary would get his five minutes or 30 minutes, depending on what the issues were that day — and of course the Deputy would get his time too. And immediately upon our commencing operations in Afghanistan — and when I say commencing operations, I mean the moment we had the first Special Operating Force team with the Northern Alliance, and we were getting actual reporting back from US as well as CIA with Northern Alliance Forces (so, from US military sources, CIA sources, and initially from others in-country, let’s put it this way, to whom we had access) — what I got immediately was that, with regard to the Northern Alliance taking prisoners, it was absolute chaos.

  We got signs that they weren’t taking prisoners; that is to say, they were shooting them. We got signs that when they did take prisoners they would negotiate with them, get them to reconcile themselves, so to speak, and let them go. I mean, it was chaos. Everything you can possibly imagine that could be happening on a battlefield in Afghanistan was happening. “

  http://www.andyworthington.co……-part-one/
• acquarius74 August 28th, 2009 at 6:24 pm «

  Thanks for all your work and links, blue. I’ll have to study them later as it’s time for Bill Moyers here.
  ~~~
• bluebutterfly August 28th, 2009 at 9:37 pm «

  From another diary..yes, I know the song. Now you have me worried. If ever you need a private conversation, you could ask FDL for my e-mail if you wanted to. Hugs.
• acquarius74 August 29th, 2009 at 7:55 am «

  Not to worry, blue, my ref to the song just concerned changes here, no big deal. I need to study various internet sites…
• bluebutterfly August 28th, 2009 at 3:05 pm «

  “So that was another source. Still another source was people who were involved in detainee management. These were contractors — CIA and military — who were a little bit uneasy about what they were being asked to do, and by whom they were being asked to do it, and without, in some cases, any paperwork to cover their butts, so to speak, and they were sending cables back, and they were talking to people, and people were talking to me, about the disquiet that was going on amongst people who were either seeing some of these things happen, or in some cases were actually involved in it, in some way, and weren’t happy about what they were doing.

  I’ve said before that one of the things that, with regard to the armed forces, has made me proud of a lot of those young guys out there — and young gals out there — was that a lot of these people apparently refused to do this stuff, and their leaders, whether they were captains or lieutenants, or whether they were majors, lieutenant colonels, colonels, brigadier generals or whatever, were not eager to order them to, because they knew, from past experience, that when that happens, then you get whistleblowers, you get people who write their Congressmen, and call their Congressmen, and take pictures and so forth, so I was elated to hear that a lot of these young officers — in particular, young NCOs — were refusing to do this stuff, but nonetheless they were talking about what others were doing. “

  http://www.andyworthington.co……-part-one/
5. libbyliberal August 28th, 2009 at 11:19 am «

   Acquarius, in my calls each day for Single Payer to the House I am also stating I want torture accountability to go all the way to the top, including Bush!

   The torture architects and enablers violated BOTH the letter AND the spirit of the law. Greenwald is so right. And the rest of the media is so cowardly about the illegality of all of this.
• acquarius74 August 28th, 2009 at 12:01 pm «

  Libby, I just received an e-mail from David Swanson of AfterDowningStreet.org in which he asks that we review a draft of an indictment against GWB for torture.

  The e-mail asks for suggestions as to how the draft can be improved. IANAL, so can add nothing; it looks like it has been drawn up by experts. It follows that there will soon be a petition circulated. If so, I will sign it.

  My DC critters are all 3 Bushites, as bad as they come; no help there.
• libbyliberal August 28th, 2009 at 6:06 pm «

  Thanks, acquarius. Will give it a serious look. What is IANAL????

  I have been submerged in single payer research, but there are so many fronts!!!!

  Keep up the good fight! I see you are. :)

  best, lib
• acquarius74 August 28th, 2009 at 6:22 pm «

  IANAL is I am not a lawyer. Yes, there are too many fronts; I keep reminding myself: “one brick at a time, my citizens, one brick at a time”.

  Seems there’s plenty of ’soldiers’ on the health care front, so I’m dedicated to outing the lying bastids that have taken our country down the road to ruin.
6. bluebutterfly August 28th, 2009 at 5:10 pm «

   “It seems almost trivial to accuse someone who launched an illegal war that has killed over a million people of torture. But if we are going to prosecute the lowest ranked torturers, it makes sense to look up the chain of command.

   There is no doubt that George W. Bush conspired to commit torture, cruel and inhuman treatment, and murder. How do I know? He said so.

   In his January 28, 2003, State of the Union, Bush said: “All told more than 3,000 suspected terrorists have been arrested in many countries. And many others have met a different fate. Let’s put it this way: they are no longer a problem to the United States.

   On May 10, 2009, former Vice President Cheney appeared on the CBS News television program “Face the Nation.” Asked what Bush had known about torture methods, Cheney replied, “I certainly, yes, have every reason to believe he knew — he knew a great deal about the program. He basically authorized it. I mean, this was a presidential-level decision. And the decision went to the president. He signed off on it.”

   Give him the fair trial he denied to so many others. Then and only then can we look forward to a future without torture. “

   http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/45535
7. endthefed August 28th, 2009 at 7:51 pm «

   How is that progressives will often look at the law to determine the fate of someone that ‘might’ have committed a crime. Yeah, law. Lets talk about Law. What is the Supreme Law of the Land? If you guessed the United States Constitution, you will have to read it, and if you do not understand it take a look at the Federalist Papers for interpretation. Where in there does it declare that any United States Citizen is subject to persecution by foreign organizations? Is there not a Judiciary branch in this country? United Nations Participation Act undermines the United States, by allowing the United Nations to continue to do this, it is an encroachment of our sovereignty. take a look at www dot mikenew dot com.
   United States is already losing its right to Freedom by continuing the participation in the UN.
8. ondelette August 28th, 2009 at 9:53 pm «

   Various.

   acquarius74: That isn’t the only ridiculous part of the TVPA implementation of the CAT. It specifies that all crimes must have been committed on foreign soil, as well. Did Ali Soufan say CIA interrogators refused, or military or FBI? AFAIK, we don’t have documentation on what the CIA interrogators at GITMO did, only allegations that they ran a black site there from others, and backed up by the leaked ICRC document.

   bluebutterfly @ 11: Believe this is in reference to General Dostum? Before anything else gets done on that, we need to establish what the CIA did there, and how the tactics migrated south to Forward Base Camp Rhino so fast, if they weren’t complicit. PHR has been all over the atrocities at Kunduz for some time now, and they haven’t succeeded in convincing me that the CIA only acquiesced. Perhaps because they don’t have enough to allege it but also don’t think it lacks merit that the CIA participated in the containers thing. Some CIA and some military leaked that they thought it wasn’t right, but Barbara Olshansky alleged that they fired rounds into the container that John Walker Lindh was in, as well. So we have an American witness, should anybody get serious about investigating.

   bluebutterfly @ 12: And they should start to get medals for it. And in some cases, reinstatements and apologies. Sam Provance that acquarius74 mentioned, but also Matthew Diaz and others. The medals would go a long way towards saying what the U.S. truly felt was right and what it felt was wrong, and would ease the way for the torture investigations to begin in earnest.
• acquarius74 August 29th, 2009 at 7:52 am «

  ondelette, I’ll review the Ali Soufan statements re CIA agents refusing to use the torture techniques at GITMO. I don’t recall whether he said the “objected” or “refused”. Big difference there. I think he also mentioned that matter in his testimony before the Senate. If this comments section closes, I’ll respond to your question elsewhere.
• acquarius74 August 29th, 2009 at 9:11 am «

  ondelette, I was remembering Ali Soufan’s supportive statements re the regular CIA agents who were with him and his FBI partner in the productive interrogation sessions of Zubadah. Here in clip 3/6 is Soufan’s responses re those CIA agents agreeing with him and his FBI partner about the torture techniques. [video clip of Soufan’s testimony before Sen. Whitehouse’s committee.]

  Also, in his op-ed article in the NY Times, 04/23/2009, Soufan reaffirms his support of his CIA colleagues. He states that after he objected, Dir. Mueller instructed him to leave the interrogations at GITMO. He adds, “My CIA colleagues who balked at the techniques, on the other hand, were instructed to continue…”

  That last sentence would imply that the CIA agents did continue the torture techniques. I do not know if any refused to do so, or what happened to any who did.
• ondelette August 29th, 2009 at 10:08 am «

  Are you sure this was at GITMO? Abu Zubaydah was interrogated in Thailand.
• acquarius74 August 29th, 2009 at 1:27 pm «

  I gotta go back and double-check again, ondelette. You got a steel-trap mind, lady! (just kidding; I’m thankful and proud of your mind and fairness.)
• acquarius74 August 29th, 2009 at 2:07 pm «

  You’re probably right on the Thailand site. I haven’t found the date on which he arrived in GITMO. He was possible tortured at both places. Question is where did the big blow-up by Ali Soufan occur- Thailand or GITMO? Here’s an excerpt from another NY Times article dated 04/17/09:
  

  His interrogation, according to multiple accounts, began in Pakistan and continued at the secret C.I.A. site in Thailand, with a traditional, rapport-building approach led by two F.B.I. agents, who even helped care for him as his gunshot wounds healed.

  Abu Zubaydah gave up perhaps his single most valuable piece of information early, naming Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, whom he knew as Mukhtar, as the main organizer of the 9/11 plot.

  A C.I.A. interrogation team that arrived a week or two later, which included former military psychologists, did not change the approach to questioning, but began to keep him awake night and day with blasting rock music, have his clothes removed and keep his cell cold.

  The legal basis for this treatment is uncertain, but lawyers at C.I.A. headquarters were in constant touch with interrogators, as well as with Mr. Bybee’s subordinate in the Office of Legal Counsel, John C. Yoo, who was drafting memos on the legal limits of interrogation.

  Through the summer of 2002, Abu Zubaydah continued to provide valuable information. Interrogators began to surmise that he was not a leader, but rather a helpful training camp personnel clerk who would arrange false documents and travel for jihadists, including Qaeda members.

  He knew enough to give interrogators “a road map of Al Qaeda operatives,” an agency officer said. He also repeated talk he had heard about possible plots or targets in the United States, though when F.B.I. agents followed up, most of it turned out to be idle discussion or preliminary brainstorming.

  At the time, former C.I.A. officials say, his tips were extremely useful, helping to track several other important terrorists, including Mr. Mohammed.

  But senior agency officials, still persuaded, as they had told President George W. Bush and his staff, that he was an important Qaeda leader, insisted that he must know more.

  “You get a ton of information, but headquarters says, ‘There must be more,’ ” recalled one intelligence officer who was involved in the case. As described in the footnote to the memo, the use of repeated waterboarding against Abu Zubaydah was ordered “at the direction of C.I.A. headquarters,” and officials were dispatched from headquarters “to watch the last waterboard session.”

  The memo, written in 2005 and signed by Steven G. Bradbury, who worked in the Office of Legal Counsel, concluded that the waterboarding was justified even if the prisoner turned out not to know as much as officials had thought.

  And he did not, according to the former intelligence officer involved in the Abu Zubaydah case. “He pleaded for his life,” the official said. “But he gave up no new information. He had no more information to give.”

  Abu Zubaydah’s own account, given in 2006 to the International Committee of the Red Cross, corroborates that what he called “the real torturing,” including waterboarding, began only “about two and a half or three months” after he arrived at the secret site, according to the group’s 2007 report.

  Since 2002, the C.I.A. has downgraded its assessment of Abu Zubaydah’s significance, while continuing to call his revelations important…

  snip>

  Ondelette, please don’t waste your precious time and concentration on my failures to do more factual research…maybe I’ve learned my lesson. Stick with Dr. Siddiqui and see that we miss nothing in her case. And thank you again for ‘never giving an inch’; you make me very proud!