Tweet
I will be the first to admit to loving a good mystery. I love all the twists and turns a really good story takes, and I love it when I’m challenged to find the answers. I will also admit that I’m prone to loving a really well thought-out conspiracy. You know the kind that makes you stop and think… hmmm could this really be?
I know in some circles saying out-loud that you believe in any sort of 9/11 conspiracy will get you labeled as a Muslim loving, anti-American whacko. The thing is… I have questions. The other thing is… I put nothing out of the realm of possibility when it comes to our government and what certain people in power would do to its citizens, for money and more power.
All we have to do is look at past history to know what people in power are capable of. If we are naïve enough, or just ignorant enough to place our collective heads in the sand and do or say nothing, then I suppose we are as much to blame as the people who are inflicting the pain on the people.
We no longer live in the land of the free, that’s a fact we all must face. Next time you are at an intersection look at the cameras on the lights… Count how many there are, and then ask yourself what the hell they are looking at and why, and just who is doing the looking? Every street, every corner, most every store front, parking lots, cameras, cameras, cameras. On your cell phone, in your car there are GPS trackers, following your every move. On Star may be a wonderful thing when you’re driving, but just know that there is someone who knows where you are every minute of every day.
Most of the intruding on our so-called privacy happened after 9/11 in the guise of the Patriotic Act. This thing that was supposed to make us safer and more secure as Americans has only proven to have taken away our cherished rights and freedoms as Americans.
I can remember as a child the phone in our home was on a 2-party line. A private line was too expensive in those days, and we shared the phone line with a Mrs. Hart. She was an elderly lady, and a member of a group of elderly ladies we kids liked to call the “Gestapo.” She listened on the phone all of the time, as did most of the ladies in the Gestapo. The information they would gather would get passed along their “network” with speed that would put the modern FBI to shame! It was the 1960’s version of wire-tapping in our little town. It was unnerving, and I spent hours complaining to my Mother who just shrugged it off as a fact-of-life sort of thing. I didn’t agree with it when Mrs. Hart did it, and I sure don’t agree with it now when our government is doing it.
In February of this year 2011, the following 3 provisions of the Patriot Act were voted on an approved for extension. We can no longer only blame the Bush/Cheney band of tyrants for such intrusions in our lives. The Obama Administration actually asked for a 3-year extension instead of the 1-year that was being voted on.
- Section 6001(a) of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Protection Act (IRTPA), also known as the “lone wolf” provision, which simplifies the evidentiary showing needed to obtain a FISA court order to target non-U.S. persons who engage in international terrorism or activities in preparation therefor, specifically by authorizing such orders in the absence of a proven link between a targeted individual and a foreign power;
- Section 206 of the USA PATRIOT Act, which permits multipoint, or “roving,” wiretaps—i.e., wiretaps which may follow a target even when he or she changes phones—by adding flexibility to the manner in which the subject of a FISA court order is specified; and
- Section 215 of the USA PATRIOT Act, which broadens the types of records and other tangible things that can be made accessible to the government under FISA.
Don’t let the mumbo-jumbo fool you. The fact is this just gave the FISA court the power to get business records and any other “tangible things” on the basis of reasonable grounds and a certain belief that what they are after is in some way relevant to an investigation. The thing is… there is no “probable cause” requirement that these records must be connected to terrorism at all. Hence, I will just call this the Mrs. Hart’s Patriot Act.
The one thing I know is that had this country truly been under attack on 9/11, it would not have mattered if President Bush were dressed as Jesus reading the Bible to a group of Nuns; the Secret Service would have taken him, and placed in a safe, secure environment.
One has to wonder, if one is prone to wonder; if 9/11 was a conspiracy, then who was really responsible for taking our freedoms away from us, and why. One would also have to wonder why we don’t have them back, and why the government continues to put its nose in our phone calls, emails, car trips, intersections, store fronts, and any other means of collecting data we don’t know of.
I don’t feel safer, I feel violated… There’s so much more we don’t know, so much more our government does not want us to know.
The thing is… I have questions…
64 Comments
You might be interested in learning that those are sensors at traffic lights not video cameras (well they are but not used in that capacity). http://itsdevices.com/video-cams-keep-alaska-traffic-flowing/#more-2347
Of course you may be confusing the standard traffic light sensors with Stop light cameras. But they have to post a sign stating that the intersection is policed by cameras. (BTW that is by no means support for something that I feel is over stepping)
All those cameras that you mentioned are mostly privately owned.
And your cell phones camera is no different then owning an regular camera. But your cell phone does have the ability to send the photo right away. But still nothing different then owning a camera.
OnStar? Most people do not have onStar. But then I have never bought a brand new vehicle in my life. The ‘newest’ vehicle that I ever owned is a 93.
I agree that the Patriot act must go. But just because the situation was exploited doesn’t mean that 9/11 was an inside job. More like looters.
BTW by looking at what you chose as tags, I can see that your no idle 9/11 theorist.
The cameras I’m talking about are not the traffic light sensors. I’m well aware of what they are. I’m talking about the other cameras that are on lights at intersections with stop signs in the middle of nowhere. Who owns them? What are they watching?
Most cell phones have a GPS system on it. If you don’t know to turn it off, you can be tracked by whomever has the ability to do it without your knowledge.
I have many questions about 9/11 that involve a whole lot more than looters…
Thanks for reading and for the response
Like the movie – Enemy of the State – with Will Smith – only worse. There is an incredible violation of all of our civil rights going on minute-by-minute in this country. The Patriot Act is and the data-mining of phone calls and emails is but one sickening chapter in the sordid story. As for our government and their honesty and integrity – I wouldn’t trust it as far as I could throw the Lincoln Memorial.
I think it’s our duty as citizens to question our government. I just wish the press was really still free and would help us with our questions. I believe that the truth is the only thing that will set us all free, and I just don’t see any truth seekers on our horizon.!
Thanks for reading and for the response, Kate
‘looters’ was metaphorical, but I think ‘looters’ would be a great metaphor for the current Republican/Tea bagger activity.
Do you have any pics of these cameras out in the middle of nowhere at stop signs? I have never seen such a thing. I asked my brother about what your talking about. He drives a truck coast to coast. He has never seen what you described.
So that really makes them maybe what, just local?
Try looking at the cameras with binoculars and see if there are markings on them. It is highly likely that DOT is monitoring an secluded intersection to see if running the stop sign is a problem. That really is a big problem in areas not patrolled. Up in Albuquerque they had one of those investigative reporters that put up a camera to investigate a stop sign that was regularly abused. They caught some poor state employ in a dump truck that didnt stop. In his defense you can see cars for many miles, so he knew it was safe to proceed.
What difference does GPS on a privately and voluntarily owned cell phone make? After all there are satellites that could track everyone with the proper algorithm. It really wouldn’t be too hard with modern technology to figure that out. Maybe that was the purpose of that last secret launch?
But then most people lead boring average lives. So I dont really see what would be gained by following someone to the store. My step dads father in-law, used to believe that the Government was watching everyone through their TV sets. I guess anything is possible, but not everything is practical.
But you are correct in asserting that citizens should always monitor their Governments. Better to try then not try.
Barb:
I like you, Like Van Jones, and many others have questions concerning 911. I find it curious how many of my Libertarian buddies do not trust the government for squat, but make an exception big enough to fly a plane through in the case of 911?
Hypothetical: if we find out our government either knew of the attach and allowed it to happen or actively participated in the attach on US citizens what would we do?
Do you remember the great black and white move in the 50′s Body Snatchers, with Kevin McCarthy? The one where pods were recreating replicas of all the townies, and when they were ready to hatch, the people were disposed of and replaced with the pod people, a lot like Stepford wives, they were completely droned out conformists, better towns people than the ones they replaced. and they would never believe in conspiracy theories. They were a big part of one so go figure.
Today, there still are gossips like your Mrs. Hart, they got the goods on everybody, they share their intelligence with each other, its goes further, its all the intelligence they have.
Supermarkets and stores have been videoized for decades, and it’s probably why sometimes, the clerks seemed to be one step up on you when you went to the store, like they’d been comparing notes or something, getting the drop on everybody, but maybe not. And besides, forget technologie, humans are horrible at those games with out any help, just part of their skills set. Back stabers, and it’s sneaky and a coward thing.
If a tree fell down in the forrest and nobody heard it, did it fall down in its own foot print? wouldn’t physics make it go over (timber… ) like usually?
From an old logics course I didn’t waste my time taking.
I forgot to add that was good post about things:
“One has to wonder, if one is prone to wonder ” one story out there is, execs and engineers that developed drone tech might a developed a system that could remotely drive a plane, and lock out the on board controls, if so, the box cutter/pilot scenario, well, superfluous, no witnesses either. Irony in that story, was that it was a counter measure to stop hijacks. The execs and engineers, met their fate on one of the flights.
Traditionally the story is that it is rightwing anti Government groups that are 9/11 conspiracy theorists. But in all of my extensive research of the ‘truther’ movements and the smaller other 9/11 groups,they are not rightwing at all.
Pick any 9/11 conspiracy site, and read there and you will find that politically speaking they mirror the narrative that the Stalinists are promoting. Although they will deny it on both ends.
We could go on with ‘what ifs’ but what could are fantasies?
“Supermarkets and stores have been videoized for decades, and it’s probably why sometimes, the clerks seemed to be one step up on you when you went to the store, like they’d been comparing notes or something, getting the drop on everybody, but maybe not. And besides, forget technologie, humans are horrible at those games with out any help, just part of their skills set. Back stabers, and it’s sneaky and a coward thing.
If a tree fell down in the forrest and nobody heard it, did it fall down in its own foot print? wouldn’t physics make it go over (timber… ) like usually?
From an old logics course I didn’t waste my time taking.”
I have an uncle in the Grocery business plus I have worked in it myself. Customers are s blur that pass by during the work day. Walmart employees seem to be two steps behind the customer, if they even notice you.
Logic cannot deny physics. Physics defy logic in the mind of the uneducated.
What Stalinists? What is a Stalinist? Please name one.
I have questions too. The demonization of anyone questioning stories spewed out by the “officials” and creating an atmosphere of instant shutting down of the conversation as taboo, has enabled the subsequent events to take place. I’m certainly not a right-winger.
Recommend
9/11 was a false flag attack. I was the pretext for the phony war on terror. We don’t know the details because the perpetrators are still in power.
According to the Encyclopedia Birtiannica: “Stalinism is associated with a regime of terror and totalitarian rule.” totalitarian figure head, secret police, propaganda, and especially brutal tactics of political coercion…
Bush/Cheney does seem to fit the description…
I’m no right-winger either. I believe it needs to be discussed and investigated… thanks for reading and for the reply
I agree, totally. Thanks for reading and for the reply
There is so much we do not know. So much of our country’s history is clouded with questions and doubts, How can you trust something that continues to lie to you. Just asking.. Thanks for reading and for the reply
“What Stalinists? What is a Stalinist? Please name one.”
Take a look around the internet. They do exist just like the KKK exists.
Sta·lin·ist http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stalinist?db=dictionary
–adjective
1.
of or pertaining to Joseph Stalin or Stalinism.
–noun
2.
an advocate or supporter of Stalin or Stalinism.
Stalinism
–noun
the principles of communism associated with Joseph Stalin, characterized especially by the extreme suppression of dissident political or ideological views, the concentration of power in one person, and an aggressive international policy.
Well lets see you could go talk to some yourself here: http://www.progressiveindependent.com/
What a lot of Socialists do not understand is that Stalinism is still using Socialism. No, I am not saying that anyone has been brainwashed. But non the less Stalinists are exploiting Socialism for their own needs.
Stalinists like to pretend like they are just simple Socialist’s. This has been the Achilles heal of Socialism Every since the Russian Revolution. Stalinism became Communism in the worlds view. The reality is that the majority of the world has the opinion that Socialism = Communism, that is defined as actually Stalinism.
Words and meanings change over time. Gay used to mean ‘happy’ rather then homosexual (as my friends say it still means ‘happy’ just in a different context).
The Reality and the bane of every Socialist, is that Socialism isnt viewed by the world (for the most part, there have been some changes in Europe in past decades that have revived the Definition of Socialism as a system by and for the workers) a political system by and for the workers.
Stalinists have two main objectives in America. The first to marginalize American Government by use of revisionist propaganda. The second and just as important is to exclude real Socialists, to Marginalize them as agents of Rightwing imperialistic Capitalism.
This is a struggle for the Stailinists since their numbers are much smaller then the real Socialist’s. But recent events have given Stalinist propaganda the advantage and a boost. Brainwashing isnt very successful on its own. The effects of brainwashing are short lived. Critical thinking always prevails. But when brainwashing is a apart of an scheme where a group manipulates another group then the brainwashing can have a lasting effect. This is how Stalin gained the Communist Party.
The same strategy is being enforced by Stalinist groups in America today. At the expense of everyone.
If anyone talks about such things the Stalinists instantly cry things like Red Baiting, or try to accuse the person or group of being agents of the Government, inferring McCarthyism.
What I look for in dishonest Propaganda are the parallel’s that match the fight between Stalin and Trotsky.
Another dead give away of a Stalinist is the Assertion that Cuban Communism is Real Communism. Cuba is in fact a Stalinist perversion of Communism. Also protecting North Korean Communism and China’s. Venezuela on the other hand, does not reveal a Stalinist at all despite Hugos public support of Cuba. I think Chavez’s love affair with Castro does revel him as an Stalinist. But not those that want to believe that he isnt going to follow in Castros footsteps.
No one in their right mind trusts any government. I do not trust ‘my’ Government. that is why I took the huge amount of time that I did to research 9/11.
“I have questions too. The demonization of anyone questioning stories spewed out by the “officials” and creating an atmosphere of instant shutting down of the conversation as taboo, has enabled the subsequent events to take place. I’m certainly not a right-winger.
Recommend”
I am not ‘here’ to shut down any discussion. I will point out dead ends, and misinformation though. What if’s and maybes are counter productive to any real discussion, unless one likes to fantasies.
If you dont know any details, how can you assert what anything is?
At best you can say that it is a theory or an opinion. After learning the details the theory may change dramatically.
But you have asserted that 9/11 was an false flag. Assertions need backing, what do you have, if you have no details? Assumptions?
The thing is… What you consider misinformation may in fact be the truth. People see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear. Your perception of things is your reality of what those things are.
Unless you know the truth, you can’t say something is a dead end. It may be a dead end to you, but, it may be a starting off place for someone else.
What may or may not be is not relevant, if one employs preconceived theories as fact.
Any theories involving Aliens, or imagined technology is an dead end, Etc..
Btw since I know where this going. 9/11 conspiracy theorists are an group(s) asserting a theory as an fact. The burden off proof is in their laps.
By me denying that assertions as facts is no way supporting an ‘official’ Government position. It is just me not having faith in the theory. Which is the truism of the situation, we are talking about theories not proven facts.
In the world of science a theory cannot become proven without the proper science and data to back it. Even then the theory may change.
The events of 9/11 are no different.
A question I always like to ask 9/11 Conspiracy theorists is where did the false flag claim come from? Was it science? Or did it come from politics? Which field has a better track record of integrity?
Well, if it’s science you want then read Richard Gage who is a structural engineer and a credentialed architect @ http://www.ae911truth.org
Gage must have gotten his engineering degree from a cracker jack box, because his theories are all wrong. Here is a website that debunks everything Gage claims.
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://markcrispinmiller.com/2010/12/why-isnt-bush-in-jail-for-criminal-negligence/
“I have questions too. The demonetization of anyone questioning stories spewed out by the “officials” and creating an atmosphere of instant shutting down of the conversation as taboo, has enabled the subsequent events to take place”
The above was said by IsIs:
About 30% of our fellow citizens either think that 911 was an inside job or that the Bush Administration knew something in advance. Think what you will, but enough of us smell a rat! Just because the corporate media goes out of their way to delegitimatize
anyone who ask questions concerning 911, does not mean the book should closed so soon. I think we all know that maybe we (our country) “can’t handle the truth!”
Yet he is not an scientist but has a preconceived political motive. He does not separate his his unfounded suspensions from the science he is promoting based on his financially motivated opinions.
“The three prongs are: Courthouse Vigils, DVD Premiere, and Local Official Outreach.” (from your link, front page no less)
Notice the DVD part?
“Milestone 10-City Tour Successfully Winding Up”
“A FREE gift with your order of $40 or more. (not for sale) Note: You do not need to add this to your shopping cart. It will…”
Wonder how much he is racking in on his assertions?
Hardly an objective scientific observational approach.
You may want to read this: http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm
When it comes to science Richard Gage has none zilch zero.
BTW I apologize I did bait you into bringing up Gage to see just how much you are into the whole ‘truther’ thing.
So if you or anyone else wants to try to debate me, Im game. But be warned I have been down this road before.
Calling the ‘truther’ movement what it is (bogus) does not deny anyone from fighting for more research. The assertion that ‘if you dont believe me then your with THEM’ is a fallacy has no meat and is borish.
I don’t believe there is a debate to be had here.. You have your opinion, and I have mine. We can go back and forth on the debunking thing forever.
I’m sad though that you felt the need to bait me simply because I have an opinion that doesn’t agree with yours… I was hopeful you were better than that…
Its ok… I dont want to be better then anyone. And honestly how many people admit to baiting someone when they are trying to deceive them? As soon as you responded I admitted what i had done and apologized.
I just wanted to know If you had idle ideas, or was part of an movement. The distinction between the two means a lot when discussing 9/11. Someone part of an movement tend to be less open minded about what they are discussing.
And so you know know there are different factions within the so called ‘truther’ movement.
I dont not need to convince you one way or another. I encourage free thought. Lets take this down a notch back to just having an conversation.
You like a lot of us would like more information pertaining to the events of 9/11 before and after and during. Logically for something of this magnitude of an conspiracy, there would be a plan. But long before a conclusion on the who the perpetrators are and what their plan exactly was, one would first need to establish the proof that ‘something’ happened.
But the ‘truth’ movement came to their conclusions first and has every since been trying to say the public in believing in the 9/11 narrative. There have been attempts to try to trick people in believing that there is some kind of proof that led to the conclusions. But each and every item touted as proof can easily be debunked.
Hence my confident challenge to debate any assertions made by the ‘truther’ movement. After all I can logically dismiss most claims as fantasy. Things like Aliens, explosives , non existent technology, holograms, Spheres, Fake broadcasts, Remote control planes, Missiles, Brainwashing, and implants all are wild theories without indisputable proof.
SO ok you assert that the country is capable of killing innocents in a plan for what? Oil? Or was it the real estate? Seems that it would be more profitable to just arrange for some terrorists to fly planes into some buildings. All that planning and covert activity would be expensive.
You want more investigation into what actually happened. But who will you trust? There has already been an investigation, but it is not trusted, so are we to believe the next one?
Who do you trust to do it? Richard Gage? Thats great but he like I have said isnt just looking within his field of expertize. He actually talks more about the political aspects then what he is supposedly qualified to do. And when his theories are taken to task? Well they dont add up.
But there isnt full acceptance of gages theories among the truth movement. http://www.cool-places.0catch.com/911/OpenLetterToRichardGage.pdf
But I have to say one thing about Gage he is a lot more professional about his scam then that Simon guy.
Freedom From All:
My skin is a little thicker than most, so I will debate you. Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to base your rejection of 911 being an inside job on the fact that there are dishonest charlatans on the internet trying to make a buck off of the murderer of 3000 people? The two events are not connected. Do you really think that 2 planes can hit two buildings and they both pancake in their own foot print within 20 minutes of each other? Trust your eyes man!
Crap. Sorry, but that’s just crap. “False flag attack.” There was no American government conspiracy to make 9/11 happen. Maybe an Afghan government conspiracy to let it happen, but that’s it.
Was our government incompetent? Certainly. Was it murderous. Naw. Did Bush and Cheney take advantage of what happened AFTER the fact to conquer Iraq and seize its oil? Certainly.
“Never attribute to malice what can be more easily attributed to incompetence or stupidity.”
–Napoleon
There was incompetence and stupidity in spades in our government in the months leading up to 9/11. And there was opportunism in plenty afterwards. You need look no further than that.
You can have all of the questions you want. I’ll answer some of them and then some.
Yes, there WAS a conspiracy for the events of 9/11/2001. By Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda to hijack commercial airliners and fly them into buildings. This has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But lots of Americans don’t want to admit that a bunch of Islamic medievalist ragheads outsmarted them, therefore, their own government must have arranged it. Doesn’t make it true, and the evidence does not support that conclusion.
Couple of other points: There are unidentified flying objects, like the one Dennis Kucinich saw. He saw something in the sky and didn’t know what it was. That makes it unidentified.
Doesn’t mean he believes it was an alien spacecraft. He never said that anyway.
And John F. Kennedy was killed by a lone gunman who was a Communist so crazy that even the Soviets and Cubans wouldn’t take him in, and who just happened to work in and have the keys to a building that the presidential motorcade drove past on 11/22/63.
On a route published in the local paper the day before.
Who just happened to have a rifle that fired the bullet that killed the president according to multiple ballistics tests.
There was no conspiracy to assassinate JFK. Get over it.
As far as who was responsible for taking our freedoms away with the Patriot Act and other heinous legislation, why, the answer is obvious. George W Bush, and all of the Republicans and Democrats who voted for it, and all of the Americans who cheered them on.
You can’t even blame ol’ Osama for that one. We have met the enemy and they are us. Especially the part of us that vote for these wackjobs.
You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts.
@vector 56: Yes. Physics backs me up, too. The heat caused by the fires caused by full fuel tanks in two airplanes that struck two buildings caused inadequately reinforced steel girders to melt, which caused two almost identical buildings to collapse at almost the same time.
And yes, I saw it with my own two eyes. No American government conspiracy for 9/11, man. And, this is whole subject is completely counterproductive in 2011. We have far bigger fish to fry.
Big, fascist fish.
Ill get a fire burning for you..
Economics is just one of the exploitative motives for revisionist campaigns.
Recently in the truth movement there has been a little more common sense by smaller factions. These small groups deny any demolitions or other silliness and concentrate on the let it happen theory.
I still think that the let it happen theory is bogus. I think its propaganda for various different political movements.
What really is at stack in the so called ‘truther’ movement is the fact that there was an conspiracy. But that Conspiracy was after the towers fell. That Conspiracy has everything to do with WMD’s, Iraq, and Then President Bush.
But delusional 9/11 Conspiracy Theorist have not showed much interest in that Conspiracy, instead choosing to make up stories so fanciful that if Hollywood made a movie about them it would look like one of those B movies on late at night. “Zarbon! hover in close I want to see the Nuclear bomb destroy these primitive buildings! Ok cue the tape Zarbon!, ah beautiful.”
Barb you see don’t you ?
On opednews.com, which covered this years ago, there were two fellows that tried to discredit any rational conversation on 911.They were always there with copious links proving, say that two amateurs both flying a jumbo jets for the first time that day, operating at 600 MPH, the edge of the design limits, both hit the trade center dead on the first try. Sure.
The Truth will out, maybe not in our lifetimes but the truth, not baseless assertions because the evidence has been hidden but not destroyed.
Thanks for posting this diary, Barb. In my mind there is a stench associated with 9/11 — and the more I think about it the angrier I get. In recent years I’ve tried not to think about it much, but your diary renews my interest. We don’t know the truth. We may never know it. But the whole story hasn’t been told, of that I’m certain.
Yes, I most certainly do see…
Thanks for reading and for the reply.
We don’t know the truth, and the Country suffers because of the lies..
Thanks for reading and for the reply..
OhioGringo:
Freedom From All:
Both of you remind me of the Police (pick any city): “Move it along, there is nothing to see here!”
We liberals know better. Usually when someone with “authority” in the official sounding voice tells us that the subject is closed, and there nothing to see here our bullshit meters start to “beep.”
Yes, Gringo I agree we have bigger fish to fry, but 30% of us do not buy your official story. Call us silly, refer to us in a condescending manor but the collapse of those 3 buildings tell a story that could end America as we know it.
Vector56 – Thank you….
thank you for a great post barb.
My personal opinion is that Bush knew an attack was going to happen and sat on his hands because he needed a pretext for war. I think the evidence supports that.
The August 8th PTB (Bin Ladin determined to strike in the US) is the smoking gun.
That’s PDB (Presidential daily briefing)
Let me guess, your trying to say that I am one of those “fellows’?
The towers were huge targets being hit by big planes. And Ive heard that line before. Why does the limits of the aircraft matter to someone who probably doesnt know the limits of the aircraft that they are crashing into a building care about unknown limits?
Or I could just point out it could be good luck. Since your just making a guess yourself.
“not in our lifetimes” preparing your position for the ten year anniversary?
Ten years and not one ‘truther’ can file anything in court? How many lifetimes will it take? Every shred of evidence the so called ‘truthers’ have is easily debunked. One would think after ten years there would be something provable, if there was any merit to the accusations. But every time the ‘truther. movement gets their asses handed to them, they create a new story. How many are we upto now? I lost track.
Vector what percentage believes in the existence of God? Should we Atheist reassess our beliefs based on polls? How about Bigfoot? Or ghosts? Or the moon landings?
Should we really logically use your reasoning that if a certain percentage believes something we must believe it also?
More then 30% of this nation is Republican. Should I drop all this and believe in Social Conservatism?
The facts are not guided by popularity.
By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.
Galileo Galilei
So what you are saying is that you are closed to alternative ideas and will not be swayed by any argument that does not conform to your predetermined outcome. Sounds very Bush/Cheny Iraq war intel to me. That may be a little harsh as comparisons go, but I see a disturbing parallel.
Vector56, I know several 9/11 truthers who refuse to be swayed by the evidence, they do not believe that the buildings could have collapsed the way they did. But they do not know how the buildings were designed and what knowledge they may or may not have about structural engineering is highly limited. Sometimes a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing if it means having too little knowledge.
The buildings collapsed the way they did because they were designed to do it that way. Skyscrapers are made to collapse straight down to prevent the domino effect.
http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/tech/failure.htm
The debinking 9/11 site has much more detailed explanations of why things happened the way they did. But like any religious zealot, facts do not matter when faith is involved.
Actually, the girders did not melt. They were weakened to the pont where they could no longer support the weight of the floors above them, which is why the collapse happened.
Thank you for the post and for paying attention when so many have taken the easy way out and simply believe what they are told.
A good investigator does not remove any suspects from their list until the case has been solved.
Comparing a belief that there is a big super natural “Sugar Daddy” in the sky to my Suspicions that our government could somehow be involved with the mass murder of it’s citizens is quite a stretch at best.
What we so-called “Truthers” (aren’t labels grand when it comes to the delegitimization of the other guy) want is the right to ask questions without being labeled, tagged, or immersed in a pool of condescending bullshit. Say what you will, 30% of a population can and should not be dismissed out of hand. If there is nothing to hide, then we move on knowing no stone was unturned; but if we find that the “unthinkable” did
happen, then the very thing that gives the Authorities legitimacy many cease to exist! If I were you (the 70%) I too would want this to “go silently into the night.”
Ten years is nothing.. The Gulf of Tonkin happened in 1964. It took until 2005 for the truth to be told about how we were lied into the fiasco known as Vietnam… 41 years of lies. Over 58,000 Americans and over 1 million Vietnamese dead because of those lies.
The people who questioned our purpose and our reason for being in Vietnam also got their “asses handed to them” as you so eloquently put it, BUT… in the end, they were correct to question everything, for it all was a lie…
Just sayin…
I wonder why those who are not “prone to ponder “are so ready in stifling those who would. Or why does one who is prone to accept pablum not just…” walk away contented?” and do his business at another door step?
["There was no conspiracy to assassinate JFK. Get over it."]
Okay sure, but take a read of this book for some well done conjecture on a long brewing unsastisfactory, (25 years sealed ) case.
http://www.amazon.com/JFK-Unspeakable-Why-Died-Matters/dp/1439193886/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303318065&sr=1-1
This is not intended as troll feed, cause the bait would be worth more than the catch.
I did not come up with the term ‘truther’, 9/11 Conspiracy theorists named themselves that. So blame them for their own “delegitimization”.
No one is stopping anyone from doing anything. If you are going to objectively research something you need to hear from all sides. Nothing ever is gained in a ‘echo chamber’ well except rumors. Thats how ‘echo chambers’ work. Without any challenge to an idea the idea grows into something without objective thought.
Like the quote from Galileo “By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.” Without scientific principle any story can be asserted. Hence all the Alien, hologram, faked broadcast, Nuclear bomb, and other wild assertions.
Simple deduction can eliminate wasted trains of thought. And make the work much easier. For example, a nuclear explosion can easily be ruled out by science and common knowledge. Anyone that goes to ground zero could check to see if there is radiation.
“go silently into the night.” There you go again trying to speak for me. This seems to be a common tactic in your debating skills bag.
“Comparing a belief that there is a big super natural “Sugar Daddy” in the sky to my Suspicions that our government could somehow be involved with the mass murder of it’s citizens is quite a stretch at best. ”
hmm first the concept is entirely the same. It was concept theory the actual subject matter did not matter, other then I know you too are an Atheist, so I had hoped that you would add two plus two. Since you didnt Ill try again.
What percentage of America believes that Obama was born in Kenya? Should we investigate that claim too based on that percentage? The ‘official’ claim is that Obama was born in Hawaii. They even produced a real birth certificate proving it.
Should I now question that claim based on what the polls say? We dont trust the Government so now we know that Obama was born in Kenya?
That is the same critical thinking applied to both subjects.
“Say what you will, 30% of a population can and should not be dismissed out of hand. If there is nothing to hide, then we move on knowing no stone was unturned; but if we find that the “unthinkable” did”
So by that same reasoning we should back Trump? I mean lets not dismiss it without finding out the real truth, right?
“A good investigator does not remove any suspects from their list until the case has been solved.” well thats not true at all.
If an investigate did as you have asserted then the investigation would slow to an halt trying to catalog all that silly information.
All what a criminal would have to do is call in and accuse a million people. Then there would be a million suspects to investigate. Plus what is the point of an alibi if no suspects get crossed off the list until the case has been “solved”?
Say your investigating a murder in a stadium full of 100,000 fans. they all had access to the victim, technically. But a good investigator would rule out the most of those people as being too impracticable to have been the suspect. But your asking the investigator to not cross off any suspect until the case is solved.
The really asinine part of the assertions put forward by the ‘truthers’ is the common, it was Bush and Cheney that were the ones behind the entire events of 9/11. But isnt it widely believed that those two were just working for someone else? So aren’t the ‘truthers’ barking up the wrong tree? Yes echo chambers are useless.
Its always funny how people assert some book has all the answers. I think Ive been told that before.
I’ll have a go at the Government story,ready.
You know a piece of plywood is 4′ X 8′, the size of the support columns at their base but with 5″ thick walls and a center plate 5″ thick plate in the middle.
They were not hollow as you suggest but rather “I” beams with 5″ cladding welded to each outside,like a closed end “E”.
There were 120 such columns per building. They had to fail at the exact same time or the building, with some destroyed and some intact would have fallen over not down into it’s foot print. Also the “pancaked floor” claim would have left the columns standing bare, which they didn’t.
It’s false claim , I don’t care how much kerosene you use no human being or action can heat 5″ cold steel to collapse in under two hours ,impossible for those who understand . Then multiply that by 120 columns and we got a BIG problem. Two times is a BIGGER problem ?
I’ll give my farm to anyone who can melt , to failure, the configuration of the beams, with just 1″ steel, instead of the real 5″ beams, in two hours with kerosene AKA jet fuel and I guarantee I keep my farm till I die. Any takers ?
Hagee? Falwell? Graham?
I guess at this point we should agree to disagree.
P.S. Freedom From All; I must admit that comparing my 30% argument
to the % of citizens who still believe Obama
was in born in Kenya was a sound bit of logic.
“It’s false claim , I don’t care how much kerosene you use no human being or action can heat 5″ cold steel to collapse in under two hours ,impossible for those who understand . Then multiply that by 120 columns and we got a BIG problem. Two times is a BIGGER problem ?”
hmmm wonder why then that they put fire retardant and concrete on beams in the WTC? Could it be that they were worried of structural failure due to a building fire?
When the planes entered the building and exploded into huge fireballs, such an occurrence exceeds being just an building fire. A building fire it almost all cases starts out small them builds as fuel is burned. That is far from what happened in the WTC.
Your little challenge is irrelevant. The steel did not need to become molten to fail. The steel only needed to become weak enough to fail under load.
The next factor involved the huge top sections above where the planes entered the buildings. Those portions literally fell onto the remaining building below the impacted areas.
You need to look at the entire situation rather then individual events as if they were separate.
There are many photos and some video that show the actual failing of the WTC buildings. That evidence is solid proof on how the buildings failed. I watched it happen live, and have seen the photos and the videos. Your asking me to disbelieve my own eyes.
So you have to accept that the top portion did impact the remaining structures. Plus we saw that the fires were very intense. We know how the building was constructed and what it would take for it to fail with the conditions that have been documented. We know that planes hit buildings at a high rate of speed. Near 600 mph, that is a lot of energy on its own, without explosive jet fuel. With the impact being on only a few floors all that fuel was concentrated and burned for some time, no one fought the fire.
The combination of the tremendous force of a 76 hitting a building at near 600 mph ir well within the physics to remove the concrete and any fire retardants, exposing the steel directly to the intense flame. The metal became unstable and exceeded its design to withhold the massive weight it was holding. Which is all logical and within known physics. No one needs to make up anything tough to assert what happened.
On the other the ‘truthers’ claims are not logical and are contorted in order to come out with the results that they were looking for all along. hence all the wild claims of nanothermites and faked broadcasts. And even further into fantasy with hovering spheres and nuclear bombs, and of course my favorite Aliens.
Nice try but you havent proven that the buildings would not fail the way the “official” story tells us. Instead you have only shown your misunderstanding of what was the key ellements in the buildings failure.
Well that doesnt make logical sense though. Just because one thing happens a certain way doesnt mean everything will.
‘Truthers’ will never find the truth. The whole ‘truther’ movement is an oxymoron.
Bigfoot for many years was asserted as real from the crackpots that believed in bigfoot. Then one day the person who first started telling us that he saw bigfoot admitted that it was a hoax.
The ‘truthers’ are the same bunch of people. Go to ‘truther’ sites and you will find that they are portals to all the wacko stuff, like bigfoot UFO’s and the moon ladings.
I cant just accept theories that assert in such silliness with nothing real to back the claims. Or assho9les that assert that the victims of 9/11 were fake. Its a insult to everyone to make such childish anti-logical claims.
If someone can bring forward something more then “I think” or “So and So says” or the most common so called ‘truther’ evidence “if you look at this photoshopped photo it clearly shows”. There isnt anything really to debunk. The entire ‘truther’ movement depends on whether you have faith in a narrative.
The Gulf of Tonkin is a far cry from New York. How many witnesses wwere in the Golf of Tonkin? How many were watching 9/11 on TV? How many people were in New York?
What proof is there that proves that the Official story is wrong? Lets break that down and itemize the alleged proof.
first from the start we can cross of most of the theories in a broad motion. All those fantasy ones like Aliens, hovering spheres, faked broadcasts, Nuclear bombs, fake planes, controlled demolitions, Nanothermite, Missiles, free falling, falling into their footprints. None of those accusations hold up to the evidence.
If you want i could explain each and every one for you in detail, with the numbers to back it up, and many creditable sources. And more if you want to go farther.