(also posted at VOTS)
Back in September, Conor Friedersdorf put out a piece in The Atlantic titled “Why I Refuse to Vote for Barack Obama.” The basic argument is this: even though Romney is bad, the author still felt Obama’s transgressions made him beyond the pale as far as his actual vote was concerned. Here is what Friedersdorf actually says to rebut the standard “Romney would be worse” objection:
What about the assertion that Romney will be even worse than Obama has been on these issues? It is quite possible, though not nearly as inevitable as Democrats seem to think. It isn’t as though they accurately predicted the abysmal behavior of Obama during his first term, after all. And how do you get worse than having set a precedent for the extrajudicial assassination of American citizens? By actually carrying out such a killing? Obama did that too. Would Romney? I honestly don’t know. I can imagine he’d kill more Americans without trial and in secret, or that he wouldn’t kill any. I can imagine that he’d kill more innocent Pakistani kids or fewer. His rhetoric suggests he would be worse. I agree with that. Then again, Romney revels in bellicosity; Obama soothes with rhetoric and kills people in secret.
The arguments either way aren’t persuasive. Romney could be worse, but nobody really knows, because there is no way to know if a politician’s rhetoric matches his or her actions. Obama offers mostly empty liberal pieties and behaves as a conservative; Romney talks like a Tea Party lunatic at times, but you don’t really know if this is to appease his constituency or if he means it.
Friedersdorf’s piece would be irrelevant, however, except that it was brought up again by a fellow “sebastianbennett” in Wednesday’s piece in Firedoglake: “Is Voting for Obama Immoral?” Here is sebastianbennet’s response to Friedersdorf’s argument:
Yet should Obama’s record disqualify him from consideration at the ballot box, as Friedersdorf claims?
To believe so is to assume that a Romney administration would take a different tact on national security matters, which is unlikely, a point Friedersdorf concedes. To believe so also assumes that Romney would nominate judges more inclined to check the abuse of authority. This is also unlikely. Finally, to believe that Obama’s “imperial presidency” disqualifies him for reelection is to accept by default his opponent’s platform, including, for example, his (Romney’s) dogged determination to turn the country into a feudal-like state by relentlessly preferencing the rich and powerful.
This argument is also not persuasive. The likely outcome is that either Obama or Romney will give us everything Paul Ryan has promised. Romney will do it outright, whereas Obama will achieve it through “compromise” and “bipartisanship.” If there is any difference between the two political outcomes, Obama as President versus Romney as President in 2013, it will be nullified by the additional resistance Romney will receive for being less charismatic than Obama is.
sebastianbennett talks about “sustaining our democracy” at the end, as a reason to vote for Obama. “Our democracy,” today, is a nasty bit of theater designed to fool the public while special interests make almost all of the real decisions. Let me suggest a higher standard, a standard actually worth resuscitating — sustaining people power. People power, as defined here, is not the power politicians have over the people, but rather the power people have to bring about political outcomes that are in their own interests. Voting may not have a moral outcome, but sustaining people power has at least a decent shot at it.
Voting is a very poor expression of people power. This, more than anything, is the reason why Occupy used consensus process — consensus process is a much more effective expression of people power than is voting. The idea of voting is that there is some “50% minus one” constituency out there that needs to be nullified, on grounds chosen by those who design the voting contests, for the sake of the majority will. The majority will, too, is constructed — the mass media and the politicians and other “leaders” somehow get a bunch of disparate people to conform in their opinions because everyone is somehow convinced to sell out for the sheer glory of winning a vote. By nature, the people do not conform to each other, neither in opinion nor in shoe size, but voting forces public conformity of opinion for the sake of winning. Consensus process, on the other hand, obliges its participants to design outcomes tailored to the non-conformist peculiarities of all those involved.
However you vote, don’t think a whole lot about your vote. You can give yourself moral brownie points for voting for a third party candidate, but in reality you will make as little a difference as you would if you were to vote for Obama or Romney. History will only be made if you can rally the public behind some better expression of people power than voting, especially (in that regard) than voting for corporate party shills in an era of late capitalism in crisis.



32 Comments

Thank you, comrade, for getting out of the desperate frenzy.
I agree generally but another important thing you can do is informing and persuading others and increasing the size and breath of the community.
I disagree there are big differences between Obama and Romney in terms of the time it takes for things to go down hill. With Obamacare about 72,000 additional lives are saved annually. That alone, although there are hundreds of other examples makes it worth your time to vote for Obama if your a state where the diff between him & Romney is less than 10%. Another difference is policy toward banks.
I don’t buy either of your arguments about “Obamacare” or banks.
First off, I really doubt that a President Romney could do anything about “Obamacare.” I think he has neither the votes nor the inclination to make it happen, and the insurers and hospitals like Obamacare for the same reasons they liked Romneycare.
Secondly, I don’t buy any hypothetical about how many lives are going to be saved in 2014. Access to insurance does not necessarily mean access to care, and with no cost controls it’s impossible to say how many people’s lives will be saved.
Lastly, the banks are currently making policy for themselves. Geithner and Bernanke don’t represent the banks? How is this going to be different with Romney?
“Access to insurance does not necessarily mean access to care,…”
This simply cannot be said too often. A significant number of medical bankruptcies involve people with insurance. A couple years ago, the Houston Chronicle reported that 70% of noncollectable hospital billings were (Wait for it…….)…………….people with insurance.
Then there is the Medicaid expansion that wasn’t.
In regards to what you claim is hypothetical, it’s actually based on research it was estimated that 25,000 to 50,000 lives were lost prior to implementation of Obamacare and that most of those lives will be saved with Obamacare but that’s a drop in the bucket compared to the number that Obama and Romney allow to be killed each from lack of simple safety controls within for profit hospitals (click on link above) which is why I mostly agree with you.
Romney can defund and deregulate Obamacare to a large extent without congressional approval. I’d don’t buy you hypothetical they he couldn’t end up repealing or watering it down even further.
Romney’s repeal increases the number of uninsured to about 72 million so using the projects from the above cited studies you get 36-72,000 additional deaths per year. Romney’s biggest fan is George Bush so you can multiple 36,000×8 and then figure in the number of deaths from George Bush’s wars plus estimates from lack of pollution controls and you get a fairly accurate and staggering figure of the difference between Obama and Romney.
Another way to figure it is under Romney life-expectancy goes down (which is one way to avoid paying for Medicare) and under Obama is moves upward and the slowest rate of any developed country in the world.
Yup.
I’d rather have brownies than moral brownie points. :)
Yeah, I know, we are so screwed and will probably be so for the next decade no matter what we do. We let the inmates run the asylum because we were too busy watching AI or other stuff to bother with protecting our democracy. Now they figure they don’t have to listen to us.
Cross-posted from the other diary up with a similar name to this one:
It’s easy to see how the Holocaust happened:
We know that Obama is arming the Genocides in Bahrain with poison gas:
Americans stand ready to vote for both the anti-Semitic Genocide in Bahrain and the anti-Slave Genocide in Bahrain:
However bad one may suspect Romney of being deep down, there’s no indication he’s ever supplied anyone with poisonous gas so that they could Murder their uppity Slaves with it.
Last night President Obama told Jay Leno that the problem that South Africa’s problem is they want to sell to Europe, which isn’t spending enough. He didn’t mention the problem that Slaves are being massacred for “illegal [!] strikes.”
So, Black Americans stand ready to vote for Slavery in Bahrain and South Africa. And ready to vote for more Lynch Mobs in Africa, like the one for Kony. Polls say 96% of Black voters will vote against their own interests by voting for the world’s foremost proponent of Slavery and Lynch Mobs, despite the centuries of struggles against them. Martin Luther King would be ashamed.
Night before last, a dejected David Letterman told Rachel Maddow how betrayed he felt by President Obama’s lies in the Debate, and Obama’s sellout on Global Warming.
Is this on YouTube anywhere?
Brilliant, cassiodorus. Rec’d.
You need to add in the number of deaths caused by Obama’s foreign policy (as it stands a vast escalation of what Bush Junior did), add in the additional number of deaths caused by Obama’s deportation policy, and so on. People have this idea that they’ve stopped the massive loss of life due to Bush Junior foreign policy by electing someone with a (D) next to his name. What a bunch of rubes.
Obama is running against Obama, and although we’re a small percentage, it’s enough to stop Obama. The nuts are going to vote for the nuts no matter what, and you can count on them voting. We are the people Obama needs to win, if we stay home, he’s going to lose.
What evidence do we have that Obamacare is saving 72,000 lives annually?
It is estimated that 25,000 to 50,000 lives were lost prior to implementation of Obamacare? This is historical information and they can’t get any closer than 25,000 or double that figure? But, they can estimate something that has yet to happen?
Sorry, this not terribly convincing. And “most of 25,000″ does not equal the 72,000 claimed in your prior post.
Romney cannot repeal a law of congress without Congress. And, even if he could, he won’t, much as he will not reinstate DADT by executive order (or ask Congress to do it).
As to the banks, please. Republicans Timmeh Geithner and Ben Bernanke have been in charge all along.
Look, there may be some differences between Romney and Obama, but not these.
Look the
I think the M word is too confusing to be contemplated by today’s Amerikans. A better question for debate would be. Is it Insane to Vote in a System that is Completely Corrupt?
Except for a few True Believers most people realize that no matter who is elected the US will continue with Murder and Mayhem at home and abroad.
Why are so few people able to stand up and say Stop i will no longer enable this Madness?
I don’t know that I am comfortable framing a voting choice as moral or immoral. I am not willing to say that most of America, which will vote for Romney or Obama, is immoral.
However, let’s go with that.
I strongly disagree that voting for a third party platform with which I agree is no better than using my vote to approve of Obama’s first term, with which I strongly disagree.
I also disagree that voting third party makes very little difference. Ask George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton if Perot made a difference.
Do NOT stay home! Your vote will then be counted by the politicos as that of one who is happy with the way things are – or at least one not unhappy enough to do anything about it.
Either vote third party or for Mickey Mouse – register your protest!
Every Friday at around 4pm at an intersection near where I live, about five or six (mostly) old people hold up signs in front of the traffic which say “give peace a chance” and other protests against the warfare state. I’m sure this sort of communication gets lost in the whirl. But perhaps it makes a difference to those who are doing it.
By it’s very structure, voting can never be a moral exercise. Secret ballots don’t make good platforms for declaration.
What I see is a bunch of campaign advocacy parading as moral choice. That’s OK. That’s the way that US campaigns have traditionally framed positions.
My opinion is that if you are going to spend time in advocacy, why not do it on issues that actually matter. And there are bunches out there. Most of which have activists actually standing in the face of (1) police, (2) the IDF, (3) courts — and taking real moral stands that have real consequences.
The quadrennial election frenzy is just an escape valve for protecting the status quo.
Perot made a difference because he was able to assemble a much larger conformist bloc than, say, Jill Stein, who does not yet have the resources to make her way around the media blockade or to overcome her constituency’s tendency to vote “lesser of two evils,” i.e. for Obama.
The other third party Presidential candidates, besides Stein, are affiliated with either small or irrelevant parties — the Green Party is the only serious “third” party in America today.
I should have clarified — voting third party in _this_ election is not going to make a difference. It’s quite conceivable, however, that the Green Party could actually disrupt the “Two-Party system” and cause another 1856 to happen again in America. They do try much harder than the Democrats to stand for something.
There’s a moral component to voting, governing, and civic life, but it doesn’t us far in terms of current electoral choices.
The policies of Obama, Romney and their parties are war, drilling/mining/fracking, austerity, a “security”/surveillance state, ”free” trade agreements, privatization of public services, and the relentless upward transfer of wealth. On important social issues, the most that can be said is for Obama and the D’s is that they’re pro-compromise. The policies of both cause, and will cause millions of people to die or suffer great harm. There may be reasons for voting for the Obama version of death and suffering, but they aren’t reasons of morality.
On the other hand, some of us will vote for third party candidates whose policies more directly address moral issues – peace, universal healthcare, programs to end homelessness and unemployment. However, given the likelihood that not enough people will vote for these candidates to win the election, or even affect the outcome, we can’t claim the mantle of morality either.
Decide where you want our country to go and how you think we get there. If you think it’s a good strategy to continue voting for Dems, vote for them. If you think voting for a third party can either help build that party or send a message to the D’s that they need to rebuild, vote third party.
But, in ways such as those indicated by TarheelDem @ 19, if we want to claim we’re making a moral choice it needs to be more than a choice on how we vote.
Very well and truly said, TD, from my perspective.
DW
Also extremely well said, and very true, from my perspective, marym, thank you.
DW
My appreciation to you, cassiodorus, for this diary.
Recommended to the rational consideration that we all inhabit this planet and ought to recognize, at the very least, “the common ground”, of that fact … in principle, if nothing else.
DW
Nonsense. The moral effectiveness of Presidential voting is near zero not because of secret ballots.
Crapitalism distorted credit for the accumulation of power. Now it distorts blame to concentrate it.
You’re welcome!
Oh, you are assuming that voting has actual policy consequences. When it does, it might have actual moral effectiveness. Recue my argument about the importance of changing the political culture.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2012/10/24/letterman-upset-and-discouraged-obama-lied-about-romney-wanting-detro
Under our circumstance, I am?
This article holds the video of Obama telling Rachel Maddow that he’s upset with President Obama “playing fast and loose with the truth” and Maddow [of course] twisting things to defend him. Her defense went on longer than this video shows.
Maddow tried to confuse him by talking about the misleading(?) headline. Then she made excuses for the President, and pointed out that he had been much more honest about the subject in the previous Debate, but had let his fervor get away with him in making his point, and apparently forgot to tell the truth.
Letterman then said how Obama and Romney had betrayed his young son by ignoring Global Warming. Letterman said that like everyone he wants his President to be telling the truth. Maddow said that this is the first time since 1984 that master Debaters have ignored Global Warming. Of course, this time, they got to choose the questions.
Obama would have looked pretty stupid and dishonest if he had then said that he cared about Global Warming, after the Prez attacked Romney from the Right, claiming that Romney is too tough on Coal, and thumping his chest about how he would bring lots more Coal and Offshore Drilling and Onshore Drilling. After that, if he went on to say that he also believes in Global Warming, he’d have been laughed off the stage.
Oops: That’s David Letterman telling the President’s campaign manager Rachel Maddow that he feels betrayed by Obama’s lies.