Okay, a preface.
Peter Coyote, who first attracted my attention when he signed a “vote Democratic and keep Nader out of it” letter back in 2004, has come up with a sally in Salon against Matt Stoller’s piece, itself titled “The Progressive Case Against Obama.” Coyote’s piece is titled “The Progressive Case For Obama.”
Here I am going to proceed in a point-by-point fashion. The meat of my argument is that Coyote mis-states the economic character of the moment, right now, and that correcting this mis-statement will show the supreme unimportance of a vote for Obama.
Now the meat of my argument.
At the beginning of Coyote’s argument are some meaningful recognitions that much of Stoller’s case is a good one. Then Coyote offers some historical context to the situation of the present day, the one in which we find ourselves:
Like frogs resting comfortably in gradually heating water, we are just now apparently noticing how close to boiling our environment is. While Democrats have concentrated on a plethora of issues, the corporatists have worked unremittingly to gain power over the entire financial sector of the Nation.
Much of this history takes its cue from the Powell memo, in which a “corporate takeover of democracy” is outlined. Myself, I don’t really see why we can’t argue that corporations have dominated American democracy from the beginning. Was there supposedly some point in American history when the people as a whole dominated the Federal government? How are the corporations supposed to “take over” government if they’re already in control of it?
Myself, I don’t think that the Powell memo substitutes for a proper history of neoiliberalism. After World War II and before 1971, the elite consensus on economic policy included a willingness to concede improvements in the living standards of the masses, and specifically of an anointed “middle class” trained to consume, in order to keep the economy invested in robust growth. This was the golden age of capitalism.
After 1973, however, the elites reversed course, and decided that the world of finance could be “gamed” to insure profits and growth for the corporate economy, without any assurance at all that the masses would benefit. The world economy was “financialized” to increase the power of corporations to manipulate the world economy for their own profit.
The upheavals of the 1970s were the background for the turnaround in elite attitudes. The class compromise that formed the basis of 1960s prosperity was replaced by an emergent “neoconservative” elite attitude of class warfare. This was planned out at meetings of the Trilateral Commission (begun in 1973) and instigated by the Reagan administration and successive administrations thereafter. If Matt Stoller is correct, the Obama administration constitutes a new phase in the class warfare strategy, in which government continually subsidizes corporate elites while imposing austerity on the rest of us.
At any rate, Coyote’s breezy history of corporate power offers him a platform through which he can argue that Stoller has singled out Obama as a culprit for the sorry state of world affairs:
By making him single-handedly responsible for having “delivered” all current afflictions to America, Stoller simultaneously demonizes the president and makes him more powerful than virtually any figure in our political history
Here Coyote exaggerates. Stoller’s point is not that Obama is the root of all evil; rather, that a vote for Obama does not improve things, nor does it worsen them less. At any rate, since the situation worsens, Coyote asks us about what sort of President we’d like to have in the current situation:
Would you prefer a cool, slender, brilliant black attorney who looks like he stepped out of a Colors of Benetton ad or a strong-jawed white man who reminds us of the “good old ’50s” when white people could do whatever the hell they wanted?
Here it would be nice if Coyote were to confront the argument made by Glen Ford that Obama is “the more effective evil.” If the role of government in this era (at least at the top — never mind the Post Office or the food stamp program) is to continue class warfare, why would we want effective government?
At any rate, after more of this exaggerated depiction of Stoller’s argument, Coyote switches to a depiction of the current situation:
The real crises upon us are global warming and extreme environmental degradation and the implications are profound and life-threatening. It should be clear to most observers that the conflict between individual self-interest and the commons is leading directly to our mutual destruction.
I cannot agree with Coyote’s depiction of the current state of affairs. What leads to our mutual self-destruction is the continued operation of the capitalist system, and so what we need is a movement willing to challenge that capitalist system. (Obviously supporting the “lesser of two evils” for the past twenty-five years hasn’t worked.) Coyote continues:
education, carbon, global warming, nuclear issues, the rights of women, immigrants, minorities, etc., are immediate and pressing.
Here Coyote forgets again — the general direction in each of these concerns is one of “progressive” retreat, not advance. What is immediate and pressing, in light of that reality, is that we find a way to become politically empowered to do some good for the world rather than getting sucked into a strategy that predicates all efforts upon the election of Democrats. Coyote continues:
In triage terms, an Obama presidency will allow time to work on these issues without sentencing another decade to the negative consequences of panic, despair and chaos.
So why does Coyote want us to imagine that the second-term Obama administration will be less catastrophic than a possible Romney administration? Obama will give us the NDAA, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the Grand Bargain, and regressive policy on almost every front — never mind the complete absence of global warming policy. Is that not supposed to be catastrophic? What am I missing?
In reflecting upon Stoller’s argument, Coyote moves to conclude with an overall reflection:
I applaud Stoller’s concerns and his passion, but I think he underestimates how long political change actually takes.
Sure, political change actually takes a long time — if you’re moving backwards. We could easily at this point go over the accomplishments of government in this era — the vast inflation of housing prices, the hypertrophy of the military state and of the prison-industrial complex, the destruction of Iraq, Serbia, and Afghanistan, the widening of the class divide, the shredding of the social safety net, the incipient privatization of the public schools, the decline of the unions, and so on. Did “progressives” stop any of these developments?
The time frame might speed up quite rapidly, however, if a situation of intense disaster obliges the “progressives” to rethink their strategy of supporting Democrats and giving to Veal Pen organizations which do little outside of supporting Democrats. At that point we might all start to champion something (not feeble “progressivism”) which was actually in our interests.
A vote for some other Presidential candidate than Barack Obama (preferably Jill Stein) will not accomplish that rethinking on a social level. But it is a start. I suppose we could all vote for Barack Obama now, and start thinking about the future, and the mass-suicidal course our civilization is on with industrial capitalism, at some later point. But when?
(also available at VOTS)





261 Comments

Well at least they wrangled Coyote to combat Stoller. I guess Obama had his hands full with Taibbi.
Exactly! Because next time – just like now – will be the most important election ever, can’t afford to start a third party now, and look at those awful republicans! It will always be thus. The real question is voting for the status quo with a republican or democratic vote or not voting for it with a vote for Stein, Anderson, or Stewart. The longer we delay the harder it will be to avoid disaster. Some might say with justification that it is already too late, but I have hope.
Thank you.
LOL! Has Obama actually responded to Taibbi, and where can we find it?
I assume that in this you are referring to the fact that the 1930s scared the shit out of the elites as to the possibility of socialism in the US and that the Cold War provided a frame for a quality of life comparison of an industrial nation to a peasant nation that was rapidly industrializing under what turned out to be state capitalism. The development and hyping of the middle class and the American dream was a defensive strategy in the Cold War. As the Cold War turned in the 1970s, that strategy was no longer necessary. And…the elite itself changed, adopting more and more of Austrian school principles instead of traditional classical laissez-faire liberalism.
The Stoller-Coyote debate is an important one, which echos the discussion happening within the community at FDL. I’m going to put this on the front page and I hope it encourages a thoughtful and respectful conversation.
There are valid points on both sides and the issue is far from settled. Please be respectful of others as we all sort our way through this difficult challenge together.
Right — also, at the stage of capitalist development which existed after World War II, the capitalist world-system needed a “consumer class” that would devote its life to buying things, within an economy devoted to steady increases in economic circulation.
It was clear from the experiences of the Great Depression that this “consumer class” wasn’t going to invent itself, nor were the wealthy elites going to invent a “consumer class” out of the kindness of their hearts. Government, big government, had to invent a consumer class.
That, more than anything, was what the golden age of capitalism was about.
My suggestion is now instead of hammering what is rapidly a dead horse issue. In one week, Barack Obama will be a lame duck regardless of the outcome of the election. There is the possibility of irrelevance on some issues but there is freedom on others in lame duck status. Second terms are never like first terms. And if Romney wins, we will have exactly the same issue.
Voting for Jill Stein is a start at dealing with the crisis only if it is the beginning of the creation of a national party that runs candidates at the local level, state level, for Congress as well as for the Presidency. That means candidates winning in 2013 elections and candidates running for state office in Virginia and New Jersey. That means recruiting as close to a full slate for 2014.
It’s time for Greens to get folks to the polls instead of continuing to try to persuade unpersaudables. And actually get those votes voted. And networked into an organization that is active beginning on November 7 to build a local presence (or state presence in Virginia and New Jersey). Both Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders established their presence on city councils and then mayor before running for Congress.
I appreciate this.
In Charles Derber’s book Hidden Power, he notes Bush Sr., Clinton, Gore and Kerry “all play normal politics” where Roosevelt, Reagan, Kucinich and Nader “played regime change politics”. Obama is just one more cog in the neoliberal normal politics machine. I support Stein monetarily and with my vote to move toward regime change. We can’t let this “Third Corporate Regime” grow any stronger given the more nebulous target of Sheldon Wolin’s inverted totalitarianism vs. old style fascism.
Congrats on the front-paging, cassiodorus.
May the respect among members of the community blossom like flowers after a rare and much-appreciated shower in the desert?
DW
I think the “Third Corporate Regime” will continue to implement its plans — the pivotal question is one of whether or not we will resist them.
I highly recommend a link I found in Glenn Greenwald’s recent plethora of links at the Guardian (thank you, lefttown!):
http://translationexercises.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/the-progressive-retreat-from-obama-who-is-to-blame/
I agree with the author of this fine piece. The buck stops there, at the White House. It is all about accountability.
Excellent post, cassiodorus
I wholly disagreed with much of what the Obama booster on Al Jazeera English’s “The Stream” was saying to me when I debated third party politics with him last week, but it was not far from what many liberals/progressives think. There is plenty of conventional wisdom to be confronted and I am pleased to see you confronting Coyote’s case.
I’m much more in the “progressive case against Obama” camp, but I think it is good to be challenged.
People may discuss this passionately but I hope some can share their views without expecting those they are engaging to stop posting his or her thoughts to the comments thread. Have a debate.
lol
Your analysis of neoliberalism somehow leaves out the raping and militarizing the rest of the planet part, which accounts for about half the economy, but otherwise. . . great work.
As it happens, that’s the part that goes missing from ALL analysis here, into which things like drone missiles COULD be fitted if ignorant people were supplied that piece but. . . it’s all about us. The rest of the world is just a side show, until (in five more minutes) the US swirls down the drain forever.
Disappointed in Peter, who I used to know a little back in my SF days. Consumerism really begins with sugar at the start of the industrial revolution; getting white people hooked on products that required screwing brown people to produce gets going early. With both former slaves and English peasants there are plenty of home office and other Britgov documents that discuss the need to manufacture “fictitious wants” that would keep people working shite jobs (or not just farming and feeding themselves) in order to obtain.
Dayen wrote about it yesterday:
Obama vs. Taibbi: Obama’s Defense of Dodd-Frank Falls Short
If not now, WHEN?
I am tired of being told LOTE and this… THIS!!!! is the most important POTUS election evah!! So you HAVE TO vote for Dems bc it will be an unmitigated disaster if the evil-bully Republicans “win.”
No love lost on W and his ilk, but I seriously see little to no difference between the Admin of W and that of Obama. THIS is not what I voted for, and I’m tired of being told to stop being so infantile and expecting campaign promises to, you know, be followed through. IF I’m not supposed to *believe* anything said during the campaign, then why the Eff am I supposed to vote for either RMoney or DMoney.
I’m old now. I get it that campaign promises are mostly pie in the sky, but seriously??? What Obama purported to run on, and what he DID once in office were two completely, unrelated things.
I’m voting Third Party, as I have done numerous times in the past. Either liberals are truly dedicated to having a REAL effect, or they’re not. Voting for Obama is just another *approval* of the 1% running the show, while the 99% has no say. It’s bogus.
Peter Coyote has said nothing to convince me otherwise.
There was clearly an early effort to secure pop culture validator support and a series of private parties with David Letterman, Craig Ferguson & other talk show hosts. Michelle was on everything from Biggest Loser to the View. I even saw Obama on Mythbusters over the weekend.
But when did they decide to stitch up the VO kings? Between Morgan Freeman, Dennis Haysbert and Peter Coyote, they really have the corner on the Voice of God market. Romney would basically have to disinter Don LaFontaine at this point.
Ah. Thanks for the link!
x2
Yesterday I mailed my ballot and wanted to cry. Saddest election of my life. I have been a strong, committed Democrat always – never voted for a Republican. I voted for Jill Stein and have made no effort to persuade anyone else to do likewise. This was so personal to me that I couldn’t do anything else. I have the luxury of living in Ca so it won’t matter either way. I keep asking myself if I would have the courage to not vote for Obama if I lived in a swing state. I guess I’ll never know.
The ‘Powell memo’ singled out university culture — students and faculty — as the hotbed of anti-business sentiment, activism, and curriculum trending. The memo entreated its audience to try to neutralize or eliminate that trend and to develop strategies for asserting the primacy of business and corporations as a matter of public opinion. His view was that the media in all forms were emphasizing the university culture’s anti-business points of view, it needed to be halted, and ultimately reversed.
Great Post and I’m with Matt on this like Twain I live in Calli also but I know if we were a swing state I would still be voting Green. Glen Ford is correct. I living on SS and a small pension and I’m getting even closer to the ground than I am already because after 0 wins the Grand Bargin is on the way.
Richard Nixon had already taken care of that one at the time the Powell memo was written. Kent State had parents warning their college-bound kids that if they hung out with campus “radicals”, they would be disinherited. And the DoD cut funding to university engineering and science departments; university administrators in their wisdom spread the cuts around–especially to social science departments and to departments that were hotbeds of anti-business sentiment. And those departments in their wisdom cut fellowships for—guess who?
Yes, I’ve heard those Morgan Freeman “ads” for the Barackstar. Sigh… that *voice* is definitely the Voice of God directing us peasants to vote against our interests… JHMO of course. Disappointed in the likes of Freeman & Coyote for supporting this empty suit, who has done a big fat nada for the 99%.
The most potent argument against Barack Obama is that he is severely damaging the Democratic Party and the left in general. Briefly put, Obama has systematically eliminated every possible reason for ever voting Democratic again. Progressives are in complete disarray, and Democratic registrations are currently at an all-time low. Not even the worst Republican President could hurt the left this way.
I do not think casting a vote in a general election is as complicated as many of you do.
I vote for the candidate who holds views closest to my own and has a legitimate chance of winning.
To do otherwise would at best render my vote irrelevant and at worst contribute to the election of the candidate who holds views most distant from my own.
Democrat candidates will demonstrate their difference from Republicans when they refuse to take campaign “donations” from “the corporatists.” When one takes their money, that is for whom they work. Or, are we to imagine that the Dem party has the ability, unlike their Rep counterparts, to take half a billion dollars in corporate bribes but then refuse to take care of the interests who have given them the money they need to get the job? Such an assumption is the definition of delusional tribalism.
Since the first debate, I have become concerned enough about a Romney presidency that I ask those in swing states to think twice before not voting for Obama.
I think the real argument should be over why Progressives aren’t doing more to primary DINOs in the House and use the time of Republican control of the House to make sure that there is a real Democratic Party when it comes time for them to control the House again (unlike what happened in 2006).
Yes, it was a multi-pronged attack. Nixon also increased postal rates for periodicals of certain sizes — so Rolling Stone became a magazine instead of its original tabloid, and many ‘underground’ periodicals folded. Also, they sent Agnew out to proffer the Buchanan/Safire scripts for chilling the Eastern Establishment media, which also shut down edgy music play on radio.
I live in Florida and have deliberately waited for Election Day to come around, even though the early voting location is literally a 10 minute walk down the street. I’m torn between voting for Stein and Obama. Living in a swing state is…difficult. If I lived in CA, I’d be Stein all the way.
I honestly won’t know what I’ll do till it’s time to stand in that voting booth.
And yet, oldgold, despite what you suggest about “irrelevant” votes, I would suggest that Bill Black’s point that only a Democrat can destroy the New Deal is MOST relevant.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-k-black/obama-austerity-social-security_b_2042876.html
What do you think?
Now, of course this does not even make mention of the fact that BOTH Obama and Romney will make use of the power which Obama has claimed, of the president, ANY president to kill anyone, anytime, and any where, as he chooses, without due process of law …
How relevant do you consider the effect and fact of that reality to be when voting? As you are an attorney, does the claim of this power concern you?
DW
One premise here is that corporate power has been controlling the government for decades. The problem I see with this view–which is essential to saying “Romney will not be much worse than Obama”–is that there has been a very fundamental change in the operating principals of the CEOs of these companies who are of my generation (60s-70s) that I have watched in horror. In the old days, while seeking goals that were good for their companies, these folks at least operated in reality, and had long-term interest in their company’s health. Now however, not only do they have a “just care about this quarter, because I’m off to a new gig next year” attitude about what’s good for their business, they have–even in the Harvard-Stanford-Berkeley-worshiping high-tech exec environment that I’m in–to an amazing extent gone off the reality denying deep-end with absolute fervor for the Fox/Koch/Limbaugh fantasy view of how the world “ought” to work. THAT’s what’s changed: we could easily survive Reagan precisely because the folks
pulling his stringsadvising him did stuff that was bad for unions, but wasn’t full-on monkey-wrenching the US economy. Now I’m not so sure.The second point is that there’s an underlying assumption that not voting for Obama is the only way to get the attention of the Democratic establishment, and while that worked for the Tea Party in 2010, I doubt the same logic will apply to the Democrats. What’s left out here is that voting for Obama now, in theory should provide some political capital for the progressive movement.
So call me apostate–and I don’t agree with Peter’s specific rhetorical approaches–but it would not be a bad idea to make sure that we can take up the battle on progressive issues on November 7th with a guy who at least ought to be embarrassed by his lack of Progressivism, as opposed to a guy (with an army of bat-shit crazy reactionaries he’s beholden to) who will take pleasure in using the tremendous amount of money he has coming is way to make a crusade of anti-Progressivism.
I’m sorry, but I think that’s a huge difference, and I hope we’re not blinded to the fact that winning the war is not going to be “just as hard” if we lose the battle to “stop Obama” just because he’s–as Digby has always pointed out–no where near as liberal as some of us hoped.
Coyote, a former Trickster, kind of gives the now-very-pedestrian game away when he likens Obama to a Benetton ad. . . and infers that’s why we should plump for him. Yuck on various levels, not least the miserably threadbare and dated one.
But–fe truth–maybe that IS about the level we’re being manipulated on by Obama?
There has been a lot of reporting on who is funding Willard and very little on who is funding Zero or what their agenda is. From what i’ve read most of Obama’s big money is coming from the West Coast entertainment industry and many of his defenders are actors like Peter Coyote.
Why are the Illusion industry and it’s minions so willing to ignore Obama’s evils and trying to sell us this defective product?
The Powell Memo was not a new direction for the Conservative Movement but a reaction to the gains made by the Radical Left during the 1960′s. We disrupted the status quo dramatically and this shook them to their core. The Right reacted predictably and effectively especially with the courts and in the education system. The Liberal Establishment reacted predictably by co-opting and defensively moving to the right as fast as they could. Both were very effective in maintaining the Capitalist State and suppressing any real resistance, just look at how it’s mostly Democrat Governors are viciously suppressing the Occupy Movement.
Whatever the outcome, next Wednesday, we have to be ready to follow the courageous lead of Tarheel Dem, Jane, Scarecrow and many others who have had the courage to get arrested, as a vehicle of civil disobedience.
IMHO general railing against capitalism gets many in the 99%, whose support we desperately need, to worry about their “private property.”
Has our current economic system de-evolved into crony capitalism/corpratism for the elites, sure. But look who we’re buying from, it’s the the so-called socialists over in the People’s Republic of China. Capitalists have always warned that oligopolies and monopolies are the enemies of innovation and competition aka continuous quality improvement.
Part of what makes democratic capitalism “work,” is that private property, private ownership have in the past acted as a counterweight to government control of all assets. That’s not happening now, but it’s not clear to me that the fault is with the laws of supply and demand. Like them or not, they will determine who controls/owns the supply chains of clean water, healthy food, and green electricity/energy.
IMHO, the laws of supply and demand are like gravity. It doesn’t matter whether you believe in them. They explain economic interactions. If there’s a glut, the price falls. If there’s a shortage, the price goes up.
Marcy’s written frequently about the need for a U.S. industrial policy. I don’t think that’s inconsistent with what’s been labeled “welfare capitalism.” IMHO, the French and Germans have really done well with it. Both are way ahead of us in terms of green infrastructure investment. The U.S. military already provides a kind of industrial policy for green energy, albeit in an extremely inefficient way. DOD understand the need for energy independence so they are spending a lot of money on hydrogen Army explores alternative energy with hydrogen fuel cellsresearch, biofuels The U.S. Military’s Great Green Gamble Spurs Biofuel Startups…… It’s not clear to me yet that all biofuel has to impact the food supply. AFAIK, some can come from sustainable sources of biomass.
I think most of the 1% deserve all the criticism they’re getting and more. I also think criticizing them is a much “easier sell,” with unions and others we need to make changes. A few humans are pure as the driven snow and really care in a healthy way about the long term health of the species, but most are not. Genesis talked about expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Augustine talked about “original sin.” There is no utopia around the corner, but there could be an even greater “Armageddon” of famine than already exists.
Socialism works in families. It works in groups of like minded people, such as religious groups. I know of no nation state that has really made a go of it.
I’ve always voted lesser evil Dem, more for what they supposedly stood for, rarely for the candidates themselves. Obama and the D’s removed that reason for voting for them. They’re no longer even pretending to stand for anything except war,drilling/mining/fracking, austerity, a security/surveillance state, ”free” trade agreements, privatization of public services, and the relentless upward transfer of wealth. On important social issues, the most that can be said is that they’re pro-compromise, not that they can be counted on for supporting and promoting progressive policies.
I agree with the statement in this post that progressive change takes time “if you’re moving backwards.” If Coyote thinks it’s important to make choices that will “allow time” for us to work on important issues, he should be talking about supporting people fighting the tarsands project, people fighting the security/surveillance state on the streets and in court, and those fighting against foreclosures.
He should, at the barest minimum, be urging a vote for third party candidates who support those fights(not those whose policies make those fights necessary) in solidly red or blue states, even if he can’t get past the lesser evil swing state issue. Anything less than that diminishes the credibility of the lesser evil argument,in my opinion.
I’m voting for Jill Stein. Thank you, Jane, for continuing to provide a forum for this discussion.
As long as the DLC/New Dem/Centrist/Blue Dog cabal has their hooks into the inner working of the Democratic Party, the rank and file along with the Liberal and Progressive wings of the party will remain completely neutralized.
It’s going to take years of work to stop the conservatives from permanently ruining the paty, but it can be done.
Myself, I don’t really see why we can’t argue that corporations have dominated American democracy from the beginning. Was there supposedly some point in American history when the people as a whole dominated the Federal government?
I would point to FDR at, or just before the onset of WWII. While the people didn’t dominate, FDR did take up the cause which resulted in things like WPA, and at the critical juncture when WWII started, the process was left open to the general public being represented, because the elite were favoring Mussolini and Hitler, underscoring Facism as the way to go (where we are now, IMO). Continuing to do so would have forced the accusations of treason against the major families, which FDR ameliorated by trading off that process for support for the New deal by Wall St.
So, it seems to me that whatever else one thinks of FDR, his brilliance at that point enabled to rise of the middle class like nothing before or since.
I believe we can move back to near that point by enforcing the laws already on the books pertaining to the wholesale fraud in banking and finance.
I would suggest, Buffy, that the financial coup d’etat already had occurred when Obama assumed power. Which coup he supported to the tune of many trillions of dollars, fourteen, perhaps more, we have no way to know.
Just as perspective, the cost of financing all of “our” wars, the Revolutionary war, the War of 1812, the Civil War, World war I and II, the Korean “war”, the “war” in Vietnam, ALL of the infrastructure, and all of the social programs, Thr GI Bill and so on, had “cost” about 12 Trillion …
And then, after turning the money over, with NO strings attached, no clear guidelines or strictures, Obama refused to even contemplate ANY prosecution for those responsible, in fact he hired several “players” as his main financial advisers.
Obama has facilitated the corporate takeover, and wishes to cement their power with his “trade” agreements, which put more ownership into the hands of a few AND raise corporate power ABOVE the laws of nations and international law … Romney might well be more vicious, but he may hardly be considered more effective.
DW
As Margaret Kimberly wrote in BAR this morning, Obama’s first order of business will be to betray those who voted for him. Obama said it outright: he said he can credibly meet the target the Simpson-Bowles committee established.
I think the bottom line is this: If Obama gets another four years, he will entrench his most egregious policies: his NDAA, wars without Congressional approval, his “disposition matrix” (good grief, who dreams up these horrendous phrases?), and his planet-killing anti-environmental policies. I don’t think we should give him four more years to make it normal for the President to be judge, jury, executioner and fracking President. If Mitt tries to project himself as King Tyrant, I think the left will find its voice, and no group matches left when it comes to punching back IF they aren’t co-opted. That’s a badge of honor the left could wear proudly if they used it correctly on President Mitt, all members of Congress, and the 1%.
If Obama wins, however, those who supported and voted for him should tell us exactly how they’re going to “hold Obama responsible,” now that they’ve granted him another term. If Obama wins, we’ll be looking to those supporters for answers to problems Obama creates. If Mitt wins, we could all–left, right and libertarian–fight him together.
This is not just about casting votes.
I’m in Wisconsin, so my vote will likely count. I posted two diaries, where I raised the issue of swing state voters as unique. If I was in a deeply red or blue state, I would vote for Jill Stein, no question.
You alluded to this,
“So call me apostate–and I don’t agree with Peter’s specific rhetorical approaches–but it would not be a bad idea to make sure that we can take up the battle on progressive issues on November 7th with a guy who at least ought to be embarrassed by his lack of Progressivism, as opposed to a guy (with an army of bat-shit crazy reactionaries he’s beholden to) who will take pleasure in using the tremendous amount of money he has coming is way to make a crusade of anti-Progressivism.”
but I want to expand on it.
For me voter suppression and the suppression of civil disobedience are the reasons I think it’s so critical for me in a swing state to vote for Obama. Especially on the former, I think Obama will be significantly better. A local example, if Romney gets in, voter suppression will make it a lot tougher to unseat Scott Walker in 2014. With Romney in the WH, I see huge numbers of the poor and the elderly losing their vote in 2016. I think all the civil disobedience we will have to undertake will be less dangerous under Obama. I include in that filing but not paying all or part of our federal income taxes.
If polls I trust in Wisconsin show Obama with a big enough lead, I’ll vote for Stein.
And you think that’s what we should be doing with our time?
Could it perhaps be that they “aren’t doing more” because the entire Democratic Party apparatus is being used against them?
Ask Senator Lamont about that… no, wait…
How is this like not voting for Obama.
The Tea Party saw that their people got elected to Congress; they primaried the hell out of the folks they saw as RINOs. And they stood by the GOP in those districts where Tea Party candidates did not win (except for a few egotist Tea Party folks who ran as independents).
I agree with much of what you say, Boo.
Yet, is it not equally true that capitalism has made many nations and people “go”? Down the tubes. Into forced austerity? Look at us, now.
I would suggest that attempts at “socialism” have failed simply because the underlying exploitative nature of the ruling elite is little different between feudalism, capitalism, and such efforts as have been tried of “communism” … whenever the power to decide and determine the use and distribution of “surplus production” is NOT in the hands of the people, it will be expropriated to the “benefit” of the elites.
DW
You know, if you vote for Stein, the DLC operatives and their lackeys in the owning class will blame you forever for letting Romney have Florida’s electoral votes. Now how can you resist that sort of good fun?
I prefer to call it Bowles-Simpson, left town, in short, B-S …
;~DW
You seem so sure that Obama will actually do something about voter suppression, something more than a public relations stunt.
“While Democrats have concentrated on a plethora of issues, the corporatists have worked unremittingly to gain power over the entire financial sector of the Nation.”
The illusion of difference here is stunning. So the Obama administration didn’t take a “donation” from JPMorgan Chase? No one who supports Obama takes a look at the list of major “donors” to both parties or notices that their party platforms, stylistic differences related to target audience notwithstanding, are identical as well?
Well, if all one can imagine drinking is Coke or Pepsi, then the differences between the two are indeed vast.
Shorter Coyote: Our team, which is to say us, has to be the good guys.
And regarding the environmental issues that Coyote is concerned about: Obama refused to put Carter’s old solar panels on the White House for what reason, exactly?
Coyote is right on this point: It is overly simplistic to lay all the blame on Obama as if he had power beyond his role as corporate front man on TV. What about those who, if not believed him to begin with, at least continue to vote for him as if they have no other effective choice? Or those who participate in, and therefore validate, a political system they neither own nor control?
The rank and file Right won’t fight Romney. He is run and surrounded by the Institutional Right, the real powers that be behind the tri-cornered hat freakshow that the Republican Party has become. The rank and file will fall into line…it’s how they are wired as authoritarians.
We’re in a no win scenario–Romney wins, Social Safety Net cut. Obama wins, Social Safety Net cut.
At this point, best case scenario…survive whoever wins and organize at the ground level to take the Democratic Party back, state by state. Or, failing that, link up with a 3rd party apparatus and go state to state to topple one of the big 2.
Appreciate the response, appreciate all you do for FDL
Maybe a better way to look at is that he and the rest of the Dems will be significantly less lethal. Under FDR, the poor and the elderly were a key Dem voting block.
“Socialism” was co-opted early on by Jacobins from Russia with unfamiliar names like Ulyanov, Bronstein, and Dzugashvili. Its purpose thereafter was to provide an ideological rationale for the competition between nations, so that semi-peripheral entities such as Russia could compete with core capitalist nations such as the US and the UK.
Greater approximations to socialism may be possible in the future, because socialist movements will not have to adapt to the foreign-relations frameworks of an expanding capitalist system. Of course, a prerequisite for such approximations of socialism would have to be that the capitalist world system be on its way out.
This election day we have the opportunity to make a new beginning, or we can keep on being batted back and forth like ping-pong balls.
As someone who voted for Jesse Ventura, I can testify there is no better feeling than waking up the morning after and finding out that their are a LOT of other people just as sick of the ‘game’ as I was/am.
I look forward to casting a vote that will allow me to face myself in the mirror.
A vote for Jill Stein.
“If Obama wins, however, those who supported and voted for him should tell us exactly how they’re going to “hold Obama responsible,” now that they’ve granted him another term.”
I have yet to hear from a single Obama supporter who offers this argument exactly how they intend to “pressure Obama from the left” after they have already given him their vote. Such behavior is a lot like paying a car dealer what he wants for a car and then afterward trying to negotiate on the price.
I doubt that the Dim party may be “taken back”, in any useful or worthwhile sense, cybersstrike, so then, we must go third party and build from the ground up … while maintaining a national presence and voice.
One measure of possibility will be revealed on the day AFTER the election and how much energy Stein and Honkala, or Anderson and his running-mate are willing to continue to put into and to encourage in the building of that ground-up effort.
DW
Exactly, otto, and that is what supporter of Obama, to be really credible must be willing to do …
DW
“While Democrats have concentrated on a plethora of issues, the corporatists have worked unremittingly to gain power over the entire financial sector of the Nation.”
Right — the Democrats have always been corporatists. What changed since the Powell memo was the ideological orientation of corporatism.
Yes. And, well told history and relistic “looking forward”, cassiodorus.
DW
I was remiss above in not mentioning that I’m fortunate to be able to afford to kick-in $20/month to FDL. I also give $20/month to Marcy. I’ve donated on a one-time bases to Occupy, Just Say Now ($100) and other causes that Jane supports.
I trust Jane to be a truly independent voice. Back in the fight on the public option, even someone I revered as much as digby, caved.
Google has swallowed most of the ad revenues that used to support the big city dailies that used to provide investigative reporting. We’re still looking for something to replace it.
If you can afford it, I hope folks would join FDL.
Under FDR there were movements pressuring the Democratic Party from the left.
I must admit this is a continued source of disappointment in and frustration with the FDL community for me. It couldn’t be clearer that Obama represents the complete and total corporate authoritarian takeover and domination of the Democratic agenda. To believe they will allow ever relinquish control back to grassroots progressives couldn’t be more naive.
I do feel like the leadership at FDL has made great strides in calling this out and breaking from the tired old views about lesser evils, etc. Jane’s comment here makes it clear that the community is still held back by the refusal to acknowledge this reality. If FDL is going to play a role in making change happen this issue needs to be settled soon. It is far too important a point to try and stay neutral on.
Breaking the stranglehold of the legacy parties on our “democracy” requires mass rejection of both parties. This can happen if people of all ideologies and beliefs join together to create real choices (as we saw in the excellent Free & Equal debates), but not if we stay divided in our own ideological bubbles and not if we stay wedded to the lesser of two evils philosophy. We must believe it is possible and build a coalition focused solely on ending the authoritarian legacy party reign. From there we can rebuild a democracy that encourages true competition of political ideas in a fair way, with a level playing field, and without money and corporations having undue influence over our choices and decisions.
“There has been a lot of reporting on who is funding Willard and very little on who is funding Zero or what their agenda is.”
Good observation.
One of the things that one is expected to believe in support of Obama is that the Reps are funded by “the corporatists” and therefore do their bidding while the Dems, although funded by the same corporatist interests, will instead act on behalf of the public good. The underlying assumption is that the Blue Team, by virtue of being the Blue Team, is inherently better.
I very much agree, those who say things like “hold Obama responsible,” are deceiving themselves, to put it charitably.
It’s one of those phases that sounds reasonable right up until it becomes obvious that it’s meaningless.
Agree X2!
W4B
Thank you for saying that.
I see Obama supporters writing this: pressure Obama from the left…
Like: WTF??
We DID that over the past 3+ years, and what did we get? Oh yeah, that’s right: Rahm Emanuel told us were were “fucking retarded,” and Robert Gibbs said that leftwing critics of Obama “ought to be drug tested.”
So yeah: how’s that “pressure from the left” thing working out?? Not. At. All. Yet I see plenty of Obama supporters continuing to make excuse after excuse after excuse for why “the left” needs to “wait” just a “little bit longer” for Obama to ??? I don’t know… “do something.”
What a load… ain’t gonna happen.
After 3+ years, I see *very clearly* exactly who Obama IS, and what he PLANS to do, and it ain’t anything remotely “progressive.”
Would that Jill Stein and Rocky Anderson join forces to grow a real Progressive political party.
Meantime, a “Democratic” party running scared from the heritage of FDR has abandoned the only things that made Democrats different.
And as they run, the rest of us get trampled.
Of course, we are far past the point where those paradigms have any relationship to our New Normal..
Well, not quite since the beginning. I mean, the corporation was an extremely rare category in early America, with most enterprise still in the hands of individuals, families or legal partnerships. (Early corporations were considered–in both juristic and political thought–as, essentially, extensions of the government.) The rise of the corporation to economic dominance and its re-conception as a private entity with the rights and privileges of a “person” was a gradual process; for an analysis of that process I really recommend Gregory Mark’s “The Personification of the Business Corporation in American Law” in the Yale Law Journal, Vol 19, No. 4, 1987. (For those with an account, this can be found on JSTOR.)
This is not to say that early American government was any more democratic or accountable, but that it was controlled, not by corporations, but by landed white men. Of course, insofar as corporations are also largely controlled by rich white men, this might seem a merely semantic shift. (Plus ça change…) Nevertheless I think it’s a real one, among other things because the corporation can (and does) have political and economic ambitions distinct from those of its individual corporators, and in this sense will pursue a polity somewhat different from that of the landed gentry.
In other words, the shift from an old landed aristocracy to a new bourgeois elite, while perhaps less visible than in Europe, also occurred in early America–and this shift had a measurable impact on politics and governance. It’s interesting to note that the elimination of property restrictions on voting rights took place in the exact same period (1820s) as the rise of the modern business corporation, with the landmark legal case establishing the corporation as a private entity occurring in 1819.
In conceptualizing the corporation, the problem the courts were faced with is that US law only admitted two categories of entity: essentially, “government” and “private person.” The corporation shared affinities with both, but seemed synonymous with neither; as Marks puts it, “With characteristics resembling those of individuals as well as governments, the large corporation did not fit well into a legal system designed to mediate conflicts between individuals and between individuals and government.”
Nevertheless the courts felt obliged to map the business corporation onto the individual/government binary with which the law provided them, and ultimately–though gradually–opted to place it in the “private individual” category. In a very real sense, this represents a failure of the legal imagination: the impossibility of conceiving a new entity which simply didn’t fit into the existing juristic categories.
In some ways, though, the analogy with the “person” is apt: insofar as the corporation can pursue policies distinct from (and at times even at odds with) its individual corporators, it does seem to possess a “personality” distinct from its shareholders. (In that sense, I think corporate personhood is actually *more* than a “legal fiction.”)
The question is: what *kind* of person was it? Clearly not a human one; the corporate person does not possess emotions or affect and, unlike a human person whose desires are complex and contradictory, it is single-minded in its volition: to make more money. So this is a radically different kind of person than we’re used to dealing with.
I would propose, only partially tongue-in-cheek, that the form of “person” which the corporation most resembles is the vampire. Like the corporate person, the vampire “feeds” off the contributions of its host(s) while possessing a will and volition totally distinct from them; and, like the corporation, the vampire is arguably motivated by one thing and one thing only: the need to accumulate more blood.
Franco Moretti has a very nice essay in his book “Signs Taken for Wonders” on Bram Stoker’s “Dracula,” in which he reads the conflict between the novel’s protagonists and the vampire as one between the old landed aristocracy and the new rootless, global capital. (A further analogy: like the vampire, the corporation is disembodied, intangible, a shape-shifter.) All of which dovetails nicely with my claim that corporations have *not* (quite) dominated American democracy from the start.
Here’s a phrase, however, that’s not meaningless: DENIAL ain’t just a river in Egypt.
Expecting Obama to respond “appropriately” to “pressure from the left” is called: Living in Denial of factual reality.
I won’t defend Obama’s actions, and if that’s what you think I’m doing, your really need to read my post again.
Knee jerking the “people who defend Obama are the problem” is blinding a lot of people on *both* sides of the spectrum. I thank Jane for pointing out that this is not a simple problem and we need to debate it with OPEN minds.
The sociology for it isn’t right. Let’s try a different pedagogic chord: getting people to ask how the Federal government is ever going to act in their interests, in a way which isn’t supported by fantasies of how Barack Obama can be the heir to the legacies of Gandhi and Nelson Mandela while reality does not improve much for the 99%.
http://youtu.be/sV3w7OD2pDs
Similar situation for me in CO. If I go non-duopoly (can’t vote O), then instead of just a throw-away protest/best-represents-me vote for Stein, I’m considering doing so via provisional ballot on 11/6 (e.g., forget my ID)… the more such 3rd-party protest votes that are done provisionally, the more it might help put a spotlight on the broken voting system in addition to the broken duopoly.
If you want to organize at the ground level to take the Democratic Party back, your best bets are in red states where the Democratic Party is non-functional. Otherwise you are looking at organizing as third party apparatus (since the current third parties have not) and building a party from the local up. In this scenario, most likely what will happen is that if you organize progressives, the Democratic Party moves right and the Republican Party collapses. I cannot see how a progressive third party supplants the Democratic Party by competing for the same voters; the result splits the vote an allows another party, likely conservative, to win. I can think of no historical third parties in the US that have successfully supplanted a party with the same base.
In the 1970s, one of the progressive fantasies was to all move to a small state and take over the state. It didn’t happen and likely couldn’t happen. The right-wing survivalists had the same fantasy during the Clinton administration. That really didn’t happen either. Progressives thought in terms of Vermont. Survivalists made their bid in Idaho. But the strategic idea is correct, small states are easier to organize than large states and some small states have a larger effect on the electoral college and Senate than large states. Essentially, if they have 3 electoral votes, they are the same as organizing a Congressional District.
Two reactions to Peter Coyote’s article:
1. “heightening the contradiction” did not begin with Marx or end in the 1960′s. It’s in the Declaration of Independence FFS!
2. Capitalizing on a crisis does not necessarily lead to summary execution of undesirables by jack-booted thugs. For instance, it would now be a good time to devote coverage to the reconstruction of NYC and NJ to (a) push for sustainability, (b) educate the public about global warming, and (c) prevent self-interested exploitation a la post-Katrina New Orleans. It’s a fact of life that people, and not just NY or NJ residents, were not attuned to these issues before. They are now, and they’re listening.
To engage people now is not the storming of the Bastille.
Obama knows that his role in the Kabuki theater we call “American politics” is to fool progressives and liberals. I’m sure that if you could get past his handlers to confront him with his failure to actually be liberal, he would respond with a gracious letter and some token legislation in your name to further adorn his resume. If he is nice enough to you, will you look the other way while he rams the TPP through Congress?
Nonetheless, since your name here is Buffy, I have decided to send you this link:
http://libcom.org/files/images/library/Buffy.jpg
For quite some time I’ve been thinking that the only way to get the Tea Partiers to stop voting against their own interest would be a Romney administration.
Unfortunately, it may be the case that that’s true for folks on the left too.
One thing I have to admire about the far right’s crusade is that they understood from the beginning that it was a long war. If they’d all said “but we gave Reagan 3 and a half years and he raised our taxes!” we probably would be in much better shape than we are now. But fortunately for them, they had patience.
Will we?
I appreciate the correction — nonetheless the corporation still appears as appropriate to this stage of capitalist development. This will continue to be the case until what the WSJ calls “corrections” force the capitalist system once again into some rather sudden and alarming contractions.
Yes.
People do not like to fight, Obama doesn’t like to fight, but we’re in a fight whether we like it or not, so we might as well get on with it.
We’re getting our asses kicked anyway, so we may as well fight back.
O’Bummer, the more effective facilitator for “corporate takeover”; the A-merkin Liberal Fuhrer to mask the ongoing capitalist fraud and present dismantling.
If only the energy invested in second-guessing the monstrous pawns of the last capitalist empire were instead put earnestly to denounce and discard the A-merkan religion that is so abusing the world …
x2
Those who have contempt for you, who want to terrorize you, because that is their objective, comrade.
Silly poll of the day:
Polls Show Obama Would Cream Romney in Every Country in the World–Except Drone-Bombarded Pakistan and Israel
As of late, my behavior seems to be my tardy arrival to the overtly “good” discussions. So, first and foremost, I am staunch Democrat and a Member-in-Good Standing within the Democratic Coalition. And as in any good coalition, on some issues I win and on some issues I lose, and that is not my predicament, but my overweening Reality.
Next week, there should be an increase of an approximate 33 Latinos being elected to Congress, and which is ten Representatives over the current number which is 23. Of course, neither the Green Party or the JUstice Parties had anything to do with our ever-expanding increase in our political behavior.
To wit, neither Stoller nor Coyote come to grips with my Reality. Thusly, when the “conservative” Democrats and the “conservative” Republicans teamed-up and eliminated the Military Draft, my America went off the tracks and began practicing a political behavior that has culminated with today’s politics and which has intentionally crafted a status for a “tattered” Middle Class. Simultaneously, we, the “racial and ethnics” are being dragged “down” or “forward” depending on on the applied political behaviors by white Americans, writ large. Therefore, Stoller and Coyote have no “street cred” since they still do not “listen” or “hear” our voices here in my Sonoran Desert. And just like the major news outlets, we tend not to “hear” or “listen” to the Progressive voices that participated in this overall behavior, given that departing the Democratic Coalition for the safe harbors of the Green and Justic folks, is not a badge of Courage for any political behavior.
So, if I sound a little grumpy, it’s because I am since very few people want their sons and daughters “standing on the Wall 24×7″ and I have yet to hear of many progressives in favor of an Academic-Military Draft, and which is “coming” within the next 16 years of four Presidential Election Cycles. And when this does occur, I will expect the majority of white Progressives to be complaining of this as un- wanted Progress.
Jaango
“We’re giving away free pets today, which do you prefer, a hippopotomus, or an aardvark?”
Stoller’s argument was wide-ranging, but IMO strongest on Obama’s economic policies:
” after the crisis, after the Obama inflection point, corporate profits recovered dramatically and surpassed previous highs, whereas home equity levels have remained static. That $5-7 trillion of lost savings did not come back, whereas financial assets and corporate profits did. Also notice that this is unprecedented in postwar history. Home equity levels and corporate profits have simply never diverged in this way…;
“This split represents a new kind of politics, one where Obama, and yes, he did this, officially enshrined rights for the elite in our constitutional order and removed rights from everyone else…”
As has been pointed out elsewhere, Obama also broke new ground on civil liberties and human rights with his drone and murder by executive fiat programs.
Given these truths, the only possible reason to vote for Obama is LOTE.
But is he?
As has also been pointed out many times, it is likely that Obama can do more damage to the safety net with his drooling over the Grand Bargain, that the Mittster could do.
Swing state, voting Green.
Thanks, Boo. Appreciate it.
It is the equivalent of, after having failed to do what one thought was right, convincing themself that they will do the hard work of taking the right action tomorrow. No, one has already lost. There is no tomorrow. The opportunity has passed.
See the quoted material in Part III: http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2012/10/accomplices-to-murder.html
The sooner we start respecting each-others legitimate grumpiness, the sooner we start making ‘real’ progress.
We’re all much too happy to think it’s only ‘our‘ grievances that count, and everyone else is just whining.
That’s the reason we find it so hard to make common cause.
Did the massive decline in Latino wealth in the recession have any bearing on your political thinking?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/26/hispanics-recession-blacks-wealth_n_909609.html
Or has this problem been solved under Obama?
Maybe?
I think of this comparison, too: A person may prefer Frosted Flakes over Cap’n Crunch because Tony the Tiger is a more appealing cartoon character, and they would rather look at him every morning. This is entirely legitimate. If this distinction makes one feel better, then more power to them.
But if one bothers to read about the two products and their ingredients, they find both are not only identical in content and production, but also unhealthy. When this is pointed out to the eaters of sugar cereal, one of them might contend, “How can you say they are the same? Frosted Flakes has only 11 grams of sugar per serving while Cap’n Crunch has 12 grams. If you eat Cap’n Crunch you will die of the Super Diabetes faster, you fool!”
The real power that both the Dems and Reps wield, as do Frosted Flakes and Cap’n Crunch, is in preventing people from participating in, or even being able to imagine, any other alternative.
We tend to forget that we are not doomed to consume either Frosted Flakes or Cap’n Crunch—or sugar cereal at all—although that may be all we can see on the TV or the Supermarket shelves.
On another note, I think what happened in the 70s is considerably more complex than the statement that “after 1973, the elites reversed course, and decided that the world of finance could be “gamed” to insure profits and growth for the corporate economy, without any assurance at all that the masses would benefit.”
I guess what I object to here is the word “decided,” with its connotations of some big business cabal sitting around the conference table and planning out their global economic strategy. I mean, we have a tendency to kind of psychologize the workings of capital, but it doesn’t work like that. Sure, the elites don’t care about the masses, and the turbulence of the 1960s no doubt left them with a fear of empowered workers and a desire to “put them in their place.” (Full employment is bad for business; it enables working people to demand higher wages, more resources, and better quality of life; the financialization of the economy and the demise of manufacturing certainly put a stop to that.)
But, that said, this financialization was more an economic necessity than a nefarious plot. The enormous competitive edge which the US possessed coming out of WWII (because the rest of the Western world’s capital was essentially destroyed) had dwindled by the early ’70s, other countries like Germany and Japan had caught up, and the profit margin on US manufacturing was rapidly diminishing. All of which is to say that there was a very real crisis of profitability.
So the shift to financialization and speculative profits was, from an American capitalist perspective, an economic necessity; simply put, it would have been impossible to maintain profit margins otherwise. The elegiac narrative of a “bad turn” from profits made on producing “real things” to profits made on fictive speculation is both true and false: this “turn” really happened, but it was (from a capitalist perspective) an economic necessity.
In other words, this is not a “psychological” problem–or a problem of a few bad apples making a few bad decisions–but a structural problem intrinsic to the development of Western capitalism as a whole. This changes the narrative, though, because the call for a return to the “glorious era” in which America made its money by building things is revealed to be a pipe dream.
So, I do agree about the shift that occurred in the ’70s, but not the analysis of its motivations. I also think our understanding of the current crisis must begin with the “stagflation” of the 1970s and the steps the government took to address this. (Volcker shock, renunciation of Keynesianism, etc.)
One more thing: the “class warfare” of neo-liberalism did *not* begin “under Reagan” but under Carter. It was the Carter administration who abandoned Keynes, embraced Milton Friedman’s economic theory, administered the Volcker shock and brought about the demise of the unions… all of this more than a year before Reagan took office.
In May of this year Gallup polled to measure voters perception of Obama on the left/right spectrum. The results would seem to be in line with much of the discussion here.
The polling found “in American politics today (or at least in the swing states), you either think that Obama is more liberal than you are, or that his ideology is the same as yours.”
Speaking of voter suppression, I have read that the Democrats removed right of representation for DC citizens from their platform this year — not even providing lip service anymore.
I had convinced myself that maybe at the very least DC citizens could become full citizens under the Obama administration, but, nope, just like single payer health care, it was taken “off the table.”
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. In this case, it is useless to focus on the race for the White House. With the possible exceptions of Washington (there was no one else even close in stature for the job), Lincoln (his nomination was a national surprise resulting from very astute and aggressive manipulation of the 1860 Republican National Convention, not least of which was getting it to be held in Chicago), and Grant (seriously, who was going to oppose the Civil War victor) there has never been a single instance in American history where the progressive elements of the population were able to boost their preference to the Presidency. Just review the vote totals in Wikipedia for the Greenback Party or the People’s Party (a.k.a. “Populists”). Anyone remember James B. Weaver? or North Carolina firebrand Tom Watson)? Then you’re in danger of repeating history.
Yet the fact remains that progressives of the late 1800s and early 1900s achieved great success in getting many of their policies adopted: direct election of U.S. Senators; significant reform of House of Representative procedures; crop insurance offered by government; regulation of railroad rates and labor practices; regulation of meat packing, food, beverage, and pharmaceutical industries; government programs to store and disburse grains to smooth out market and crop fluctuations; government testing of farm tractors (the Nebraska Tractor Laboratory); and many others. This was done by focusing efforts on down ticket races, and getting progressives elected to local, and state offices, and no small number to the U.S. House. Around 45 members of the People’s Party served in the U.S. Congress between 1891 and 1902, including six United States Senators! Eleven governorships were held by progressives from 1887 to 1901.
The primary example of a progressive movement taking control is the Non-partisan League seizing control of North Dakota in 1916. I have little doubt that the extraordinary police state measures enacted and enforced to suppress disloyalty during the First World War (see the first chapters in Chris Hedges’ book The Death of the Liberal Class) were in no small part the elites’ response to this outburst of progressive populist political power.
The fundamental problem with Coyote’s piece is that he never considers the root cause of the problems he lists. The failure to address climate change, and an increasingly authoritarian corporatism, are traced back, ultimately, to the failure to control and regulation society’s mechanisms for the creation and allocation of money and credit. And this was a forte of the progressives in the late 1880s: The money question. Echoes of the money question still reverberate, a full century after Bryant’s “Cross of Gold” speech. Yes, Dorothy, the “yellow brick road” in the Wizard of Oz was an allegory for the monetary gold standard.
Targeting local and state races for attention is exactly what the wrong-wingers and the Tea Partiers have done. There simply is no parallel on our side for the depth and breadth of wrong-wing local electioneering. That is what we have to do if we want to force through real, progressive change. Get two or three dozen Bernie Sanders elected to the House, and the stream of national politics will bend sharply our way.
No matter who is in the White House.
Thanks, and I agree. I should have started by stating that I really appreciated this article, and agree with virtually all of it. I’m just pulling out pieces that I think merit further discussion, in part to distract from the 3rd-party-vs-LOTE debate, in part to add some more nuanced elements to the same.
(For what it’s worth, though, I’m voting 3rd party.)
“Would you prefer a cool, slender, brilliant black attorney who looks like he stepped out of a Colors of Benetton ad or a strong-jawed white man who reminds us of the “good old ’50s” when white people could do whatever the hell they wanted?”
Absolutely, Coyote. Precisely put. You have described the sum total of the difference between the two candidates: Who would we prefer to see on TV for the next four years?
We run a site where a community collectively discusses issues, and that doesn’t include pogroms where people are purged for impurity of thought. If you think that’s what we need to be you have quite a wait on your hands.
I hate Presidential elections, I think they’re basically obscenely funded American Idol campaigns and anyone who thinks that this is where change will start is exceptionally naive. Nonetheless, people get swept up in well-funded PR campaigns because that’s what they’re programmed to do — even though the Presidential votes of roughly 90% of the people who comprise FDL’s largely urban, coastal audience are completely meaningless thanks to the electoral college.
So we continue to work at the things we think are important and wait for the stupid storm to pass, and hope that we can hold the community together so that after Scotty McCreary finally beats Lauren Alaina, there will be enough people left to come together and keep doing the work where we hope real change can start.
For those who haven’t noticed, we continue to work on marijuana reform, genetically modified food, fracking, fighting evictions and the Keystone XL pipeline, Dream activism, prison reform, LGBT civil rights, organizing WalMart workers and a host of other local issues because — as has been said before — all politics is local, and that’s where we believe real change will take place.
If you want me to make bold statements about the importance of who wins American Idol I’m afraid you’ll have to wait until God or chemotherapy shaves off a massive load of IQ points. It’s not cowardice and it’s not a dodge. I truly believe that for me personally to do otherwise would be tearing the community apart by taking sides in a massive con job. I understand others may feel differently and I encourage them to express those views, but that is where I stand on this election.
The reason I chose not to emphasize Keynesianism in my narrative was because the Reagan administration employed a distinct version of Keynesianism (without admitting so) — military Keynesianism.
At any rate, to some extent you are correct to note that the passive revolution of the 1970s wasn’t a conspiracy, although there was and is indeed such a thing as the Trilateral Commission, and its birth more-than-coincidentally coincided with this passive revolution. (There is also the obvious connection with Samuel Huntington’s piece in the Crisis of Democracy book, written for the Trilateral Commission and downloadable from its website, in which Huntington calls for a diminution of people power and a reassertion of elite rule).
As for financialization being a “necessity,” two things: 1) the elites could all retire tomorrow on the wealth they’ve accumulated, so it’s hard for me to envision the further accumulation of elite wealth as a “necessity,” and 2) Levy and Dumenil’s assertion at the end of their book Capital Resurgent that the “stagflation” crisis of the 1970s could have been resolved by other methods, and that the decision to do it through financialization was expressly political.
Otherwise I do appreciate reading your comments.
Easy choice — more meat on a hippo.
“Would you prefer a cool, slender, brilliant black attorney who looks like he stepped out of a Colors of Benetton ad or a strong-jawed white man who reminds us of the “good old ’50s” when white people could do whatever the hell they wanted?”
How senile is Peter Coyote that he actually prefers and advocates voting based on stylish image? But he proved his style-cred, and nailed it with his choice of Benetton. That’s the brand I look for on the racks at the thrift-store. I live in a swing state, and will vote for Jill Stein. I can’t comprehend so-called “liberals” justifying their vote for the charlatan-fraud that is Obama.
I’ve been out in front condemning the two-party system. I’ve put together arguments that are intended to create space for people who wish to not vote for Obama or Romney. At no point have I been pressured in any way to not write these posts.
It is important for me to communicate that to you. At Daily Kos, this post and thread would be a link that got buried within the website never to see a front page. It would have at least one person telling people they could not have this discussion here and needed to quit now. There are no editors doing that here.
What Jane is saying with her comment is not necessarily that she wants people to keep faith in the legacy parties but that she wants people to let everyone share their views without aggressively or rudely trying to get them to shut up or change their mind.
There is no benefit to people doing that, whether you’re voting Obama, Stein, Johnson or nobody at all.
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you’re ill-informed, or believe a myth contrived to mis-lead, as opposed to calling this utter BS.
American manufacturing became more and more profitable starting in the 1970s due to the gradual abatement of a hundred and fifty years of labor shortages (Thank you Prof. Wolff, and H/T to SouthernDragon)
The driving force behind ‘Globalization’ was not lack of American competitiveness, it was our elite’s insatiable desire for ever-increasing returns coupled with a deep-seated disdain for the working class.
There is not, and never was any ‘crisis of profitability’, what there was, and is, is a crisis of character, that leads the 1% to treat the rest of us with utter indifference.
You must have one of those BIG freezers.
I don’t think anyone needs to be excluded for impurity, but I do think the issue of legacy party support is just as clear as the other issues you take such a bold stand on. My frustration is in the unwillingness to take a stand on this issue which is so central to our democracy. Folks in the community should be free to dissent, but in my view they are no different than folks opposing gay marriage, prohibitionists, etc.
Your work on all these issues is wonderful. I just wish you would also elevate the focus of the issue of the destructive nature of our legacy parties. FDL isn’t afraid to take a stand on many issues and could take a clear and strong stand on this issue as well. To date you have opened a very encouraging discussion but have tended to adopt the “fair and balanced” approach we see so often in the mainstream media rather than taking a clear moral stand like you do on other issues.
This isn’t taking sides in any one election or inside the con job. It is taking a broad stand *against* the con job!
FWIW, I’ve always thought Jane was especially good at leading by example, that is, not making a virtue out of rushing to find comfort in closure.
People around here may make-up their minds, but they don’t insist on making-up my mind.
Another shared characteristic of both vampires and corporations might be their immortality.
The importance of the “stylish image” speaks volumes. It betrays the primary value of appearance over substance. Well, there is no substance with regard to the public good, so what else is there but appearance?
Like this:
The TV told us that the wars against Iraq and Afghanistan were to spread peace, freedom and democracy. When reality intruded on this fiction and we saw that these goals were not reached, instead of seeing the lie for what it was, we assumed that the goals were legitimate but unachieved. Instead of basing our conclusions on actions and events, we based them on the words the TV told us. The US did not fail to spread peace, freedom and democracy. Those were never its goals to begin with, as anyone who paid attention to actions instead of words could have seen (e.g. What army intent on freeing the Iraqis from dictatorial oppression makes their headquarters in the palaces of the former tyrant?).
This same dynamic of being fooled by what the TV tells us applies to our understanding of Obama. He did not have liberal intentions that were dashed once in office. He had corporatist and NeoConservative backing that dictated his behavior as an employee of those interests. And yet in spite of all the tangible evidence to the contrary, we still rely on what the TV tells us as the basis for our understanding of Obama. “But he LOOKS like a Liberal,” says Coyote. Yup. And that is where it ends.
Peter needs to stick with acting and vox overs. What Pete seems to not understand is the Dems are not a progressive party (maybe some are) and Obama is not a progessive president and in fact his speeches are more to the right everyday. The Dems today are controlled by the “New Dems” anti govt and pro big business. They are in fact the new version of the old GOP only much worse
Not a big deal what PC says or thinks as I think more people are catching on to what is really happening. I am voting Green
Just to buttress your point. In the beginning of The Hunting of the President, Sidney Blumenthal, lets the cat out of the bag about entrenched power
The problem with him, was/is, he became one of them
Anyone who thinks official policy will be changed by this election because “my guy/girl has a D” or “R” after their name is incredibly naive. The real debates happen in the back rooms, and board rooms of the thinktanks, and PACs
Not to pile on my previous piling on, but it is its globalizing qualities that MAKE neoliberalism neoliberalism.
Buffy, I would suggest that the history which I shared with you is both accurate and germane. I accuse you of nothing, I merely point out the that financial “capture” of the legacy parties is fait accompli, that neither Romney NOR Obama will stand against those “interests”. Indeed BOTH speak not only FOR those “interests”, but in the very same language as used by those “interests”. Obama is not less neoliberal than Romney, as both of the actual records attest.
Might you explain how you consider my comment to NOT be objective? I am quite curious as to what, specifically, you object to. Were you to make that clear, then we might seek further clarity between us.
DW
.
I haven’t read Capital Resurgent and will have to do so; I’m genuinely curious as to what those means might be.
I also don’t mean to deny that there were people consciously attempting to manipulate these processes for their own gain and in order to tamp down working-class resistance: of course there were, and are. In a way, I think we’re rehashing the old Marxian debate between base and superstructure: how much do these changes have to do with material shifts in the forces of production, and how much with the conscious intentionality of political and business leaders? Orthodox Marxists had a tendency to reduce everything to the base and deny any agency to the superstructure; I think our current tendency is the reverse: reduce everything to the superstructure (i.e. nefarious plots) and deny any role to the base. Such a reduction creates a lacuna in which we ignore how capitalism works, and my comments were attempting to address that gap.
In reality I think that relation is dialectical: there is conscious agency *and* an unfolding logic of the system, and both must play a part. I don’t think we’re disagreeing so much as emphasizing different poles of that process.
As for it being “hard to envision the further accumulation of elite wealth as a necessity,” the capitalist system is predicated on continual expansion, without which the whole system falls apart. Yes, the elite possess massive wealth. But if they stopped making profits–if the economy stopped growing–capitalism itself would grind to a halt. And it does little good to be sitting on a pile of dollars if we’re no longer living in a money economy.The crazy thing about this system is that, no matter how much you accumulate, you still–in aggregate terms–need to accumulate more.
Anyhow, good discussion.
It’s like starting at the asshole end of a very long and winding social, political and economic process and saying “here’s where we’ll make our stand.”
It’s already turned to shit by then.
Which isn’t to say people of good faith can’t have different opinions on how to vote. Without a crystal ball nobody can predict how things will be impacted should the election go one way or another, and I understand and sympathize with people who are on the horns of that dilemma. My vote doesn’t count so I’m more concerned with the issues where it does.
You must be seeing a very different discussion, going on, here, than I, oldgold. I see no evidence that many, here, regard Obama to be to the left of themselves NOR to be on the same page, philosophically OR politically with most who are commenting …
In fact, were a “vote” to be taken, around just what you suggest, there might be a surprise or two in the result.
Unless, of course, you discount those who would vote third party as having ineffectual votes?
;~DW
Yes exactly! It’s a cool–and productive–metaphor.
Superb comment, tonywikrent!
In every regard, the history, the perspective, and the clear point that Coyote does NOT address the root cause of the problems.
Well done.
Highly recommended comment!
DW
I thought that was a parody when I first read it. But nope, that’s what he said, and you translated it perfectly.
Me, I like Phil Philips. That kid has talent.
Teapot, meet Tempest:
David Graeber, The Nation: Can Debt Spark a Revolution?
What did Coyote say, Romney is more evil?
I think that’s what he said, and that I could be Hitler. He didn’t really say why Romney was more evil, maybe that’s for his next column.
Exactly appropriate, Jane.
And most emphatically well-stated.
DW
I voted a more or less straight Democratic ticket for 35 years. The results really speak for themselves, I no longer trust my interests to the Democratic party– I’m done with them. It has become clear to me they are working in the interests of a tiny group of ultra-wealthy donors and against the interests of their rank and file members.
I have little fear of a Romney term– well that isn’t true, I find the prospect incredibly frightening but little more frightening than a second Obama term. They are both unprincipled empty suits willing to say and do whatever is most expedient for themselves. Both will bend to the same evil corporatist winds in much the same way. And there is a widely noted danger in a second Obama term of the atrophy of any ideological opposition to the corporate machine as that opposition is co-opted into the cult of personality of a figurehead for a system built to destroy that opposition. I honestly believe a third GWB term constrained by opposition in Congress would not have been substantially different than what we got under Obama, perhaps even better.
Electing more Democrats has solved nothing really, the rightward drift continues unchecked, the immoral continuing widening of the wealth gap between the 1% and the 99% is accelerating, fundamental civil rights are being stripped as never before in our country’s history, the military eats up a larger and larger part of the government resources, war criminals are given a free pass, environmental policy slides unchecked toward catastrophe as the world passes us in the adoption of sustainable and renewable energy, the social contract with the people in the form of earned entitlements like Medicare and Social security are about to be gutted by bipartisan collusion, free trade agreements pitting the American worker directly against Third World competition are being broadened and expanded, Wall Street fraudsters who perpetrated the largest systemic fraud in world history contributed millions to Obama and not only walk free but enjoy protection from accountability while the firms they run are protected from accountability and indeed rewarded with trillions of taxpayer dollars and cabinet positions assuring they will be free to repeat their crimes, millions suffer unnecessary unemployment, lose their homes to financial crooks and plunge into poverty and despair while our infrastructure crumbles and we refuse to employ them to fix it. I could go on and on. Trust me. this isn’t working, we are losing everything so a handful of obscenely wealthy families can become ever more obscenely wealthy. While children go hungry and homeless. And this– this is what electing Democrats does!
We the people must organize and build a consensus outside the duopoly not because it is easy or likely to succeed anytime soon but simply because there is no other way. Be clear on this: the Democratic Party will not join us or adopt our goals as its own, it exists only to co-opt and thwart our interests, to hold out false hope and distract and deflect us from effective action. They are bought, they payed for and it wasn’t any of us in the 99% who bought them.
Agreed, Kevin, yet false or destructive argument does deserve to be pointed out, else debate, and this IS a community of rational and honest debate, becomes farce and evident feelings of “entitlement” overwhelm calm, reasonable, and respectful exchange.
When George Bush, for example, made the “You are either with us or against us”, statement, regarding the rush to war with Irak, it should have been called out as false argument, “argumentum ad buculum” – argument backed by a stick. Just as ad hominem attacks and appeals to fear or to race should ALWAYS be called out as what they, in fact, are.
Civil discussion, quite as much as civil society, must have foundations in principle, in agreed upon rules of acceptable behavior.
DW
Thanks Cassiodorious for this needed discussion and thanks Jane for front paging it. Just filled out my ballot today and I voted for Jill Stein. OR is most likely going to come in for Obama. I hope even if I lived in a swing state I would refuse to have my vote extorted out of fear of the RW maniacs, only to win a fictional victory for compromise. I have voted Democratic my whole life, held my nose in many a general. No more.
Peter Coyote is right about this administration not being solely responsible for where we are now. Obamas administration is nothing but another brick in the owners of the place wall and he worked hard for them. His expansion and codifying and selling of this anti-democratic NWO makes it clear that the way forward these Third Way New Democrats are implementing is not democratic let alone Democratic. No way will I vote out of fear of it could be worse or self delude myself into believing that this is pragmatic and all we the people can get.
I dont even buy the less evil meme, how pathetic to vote for a more cosmetic prettier hipper version of the same evil. Besides we did that in 2008 and it proved to only encourage the escalation and normalization of the same evil we rejected.
Your last paragraph, Kurt, well delineates the ONLY realistic way forward, as I see it, toward a rationally humane and sustainable future … all other currents rush us, rapidly and roughly, into neofeudalism and a collapse of the Earth’s capacity to sustain our very existence.
DW
I voted, by mail, for Jill Stein in Florida. Not only was it an easy choice, it was (aside from Rocky Anderson being on the ballot) the only choice and, believe it or not, it was not a sad one. Okay – I gave up on the Democrats during the Bill Clinton disaster so maybe I’ve had longer to get past my sadness at the failure of the Democrats. But Obama has angered me (disappointed is, for me, a weasel word) beyond anything that has transpired in the 35 years since I started voting and my vote against him was made through a tinge of ecstasy for knowing it was an important choice, whether he is re-elected or not.
And the notion, issuing from the maws of so many hypocrites who call themselves “progressive” (we need a new word to distinguish ourselves from that cabal), that a third party vote is “narcissistic” is so replete of cognitive dissonance as to be down right laughable… I thought Clinton was a narcissist until Obama came along.
If you haven’t voted yet, vote A.B.O.O.R. – anyone but Obama or Romney!
X2
Ha! Agreed. :) It would be so much more asthetically pleasing–and honest–to have to listen to Phillips as President. I’ll take pop songs over lies any day.
Let me state very clearly what I think is EXTREMELY SAD, about this election, about FDL’s choice to sit out this election and about “Progressives” and “Liberals” who will vote for Obama.
131 comments but NOT ONE WORD ABOUT Obama’s sanctioning the continued TORTURE of Bradley Manning. It is inconceivable to me that ANY ideological Progressive, or ANY ideological Liberal could rationalize voting for Obama knowing what we do of his involvement in the long-term torture of Bradley Manning.
Voted for Dr. Jill Stein today, myself.
Say what you will, Coyote’s beauty pagent piece only made me want to vote for Dr. Stein more. I’m happy to have it highlighted here, but I frankly find Coyote to be insulting… or at the least, treating this as if we’re voting for Dancing with the Stars or something.
Pretty pathetic.
I tore up my Dem Party membership a couple of years ago. I’ve voted Third Party often, but I gave Obama – with some very serious misgivings (I wasn’t that naive) – the “one more chance” vote. Brother! Won’t get sort of fooled again. The Dem party is the party of wealth, just somewhat less nutty, somewhat (a teensy tiny bit) less self-absorbed, somewhat less entitled wealth. That’s about the only difference I see.
I have seen precious little “fight” over or push-back against the current Republican WAR on Women’s rights, for example, and that’s been one of those “big reasons” given to me for voting for the BarackStar. The Dems’ll cave whenever there’s enough ca$hola waved in their greedy grubby faces.
Good point, and I agree. You’re correct.
POTUS Obama publically declared Pfc. Bradley Manning *guilty* before he was even charged, much less tried.
It was an abomination and a total abrogation of the Rule of Law. A very very sad day, and bad harbinger of worse to come. Citizens who “write off” what’s happened to Pfc Bradley Manning are totally living in DENIAL.
NANCY SMASH
That’s exactly what is happening in the race for my state representative here in Minnesota.
The incumbent democrat has been targeted by, word has it, a very wealthy guy from South Dakota, and is being out-spent 10-to-1.
The opposing candidate is a virtual unknown, and so far I haven’t been able to figure out who this South Dakotan is, and what his ‘issue’ is.
While we’re all jabbering about the presidential election, the wrong-wingers are buying their way to local power, where they will be very hard to dislodge.
High-stakes wack-a-mole.
Indeed.
You know, as someone who was detained and threatened by military police at Quantico trying to get David House to visit Bradley, who told Glenn Greenwald that Bradley was being held in solitary in the first place, who was writing about it and appearing on TV and making an issue of it and laying it at Obama’s feet long before most people even knew who Manning was, I really think you’re out of line here.
It matters and it mattered a long time before anyone tried to demagogue it to justify a vote that’s essentially meaningless for most of the people on this site, thanks to the electoral college.
Write off? Where were YOU when…
Never mind. I’m on the line holding to reschedule Kevin’s flight for the Manning trial next week. This is just getting fucking r@*rded.
Well said.
What this Presidential election represents is the stunning clarity that neither candidate represents the interests of the public and its collective good. I think this has always been the case in the US, but in this election it is too stark to ignore. I suspect that some who agree with the “Lesser Evil” argument do so because it is too painful to consider that the President—any President—doesn’t give a fuck about them; that he in fact does not represent the citizenry. Such a reality is not what our national articles of faith tell us about how our system works.
The degree to which people “catch on” depends on their personal experience. You and I can say Obama and Romney are twins, but those are only so many words. A change in one’s mind or behavior takes personal experience, subjective awareness and, above all, an unwillingness to give in to fear. What we are seeing now in the behaviors of some Dem voters in this Presidential election is similar to faithful Catholics who continue to support their church after its leaders have raped children because atheism or some other alternative is out of the question. And if it was not your priest or your kid, you tend to keep going to church.
Good luck with all of that, and thanks so much for your (and Kevin’s) unceasing and tireless efforts on behalf of Bradley Manning.
When I see citizens saying horrible things, like it “doesn’t matter” or Manning “had it coming,” I just want to … (fill in the blank).
There. Is. No. Excuse. For. Abrogating. The. Rule. Of. Law.
Citizens given up before the fight even began.
You will find, bailey, should you care to look, that on other threads much has been said about Obama’s prejudicial statements about Manning’s “guilt”, his lengthy detainment, and the abusive conditions under which Manning was held, continues to be held, and treated very harshly, clearly, as “example”.
FDL’s management, as well, has been in the foremost forefront of long publicizing these facts, of placing themselves, in Jane’s case, in some serious legal and physical jeopardy.
Perhaps you are unaware of these things?
DW
Sounds a bit like how the Mormons in Utah spent a huge amount to get Prop H8te passed in CA. Really steamed me to have out of state interests meddle with CA politics.
Yes, you’re right. We really need to cease some of the focus on the federal stage and get back to local/state focus. Big Buck$ are really trying to muscle in wherever they can.
Frankly, I’m at the point where I think the POTUS Kabuki Show is pretty pointless. It’s like RMoney? DMoney? They’re both the same. I loath Bishop Mitt and all he stands for, but Obama? The main difference is that Obama didn’t come from a lot of money, but he’s sure got a LOT now.
Ah, as usual, Jane, you got “there”, first.
;~DW
Thanks for making a second comment, Matthew. I was going to go back to your first one after reading all that has been said so far, because I thought you had an excellent point – you said:”Your analysis of neoliberalism somehow leaves out the raping and militarizing the rest of the planet part, which accounts for about half the economy, but otherwise. . . great work.”
This indeed forms, I think, the earliest case against Obama since he implemented military strikes of a criminal nature as he ramped up Bush’s wars. At least for me, who was so hopeful we would in fact see a peaceful change, this was when he lost me.
I do take issue with your second paragraph of #16 however, where you say:
“As it happens, that’s the part that goes missing from ALL analysis here, into which things like drone missiles COULD be fitted if ignorant people were supplied that piece but. . . it’s all about us.”
Maybe you don’t mean this to apply across the board here, though that is how it sounds. The diaries of wendydavis on Terror Tuesdays (one still in MyFDL I think,) and Kevin as well, have long discussions on this matter, and I would contend that my link above also puts this into context. The people Obama brought to the White House were of one mind as far as both domestic and international issues were concerned. It’s a corporate war machine and no one should be fooled into thinking a vote for that is a good thing, ‘swing’ or no ‘swing’.
“. . . THIS!!!! is the most important POTUS election evah!! So you HAVE TO vote for Dems bc it will be an unmitigated disaster if the evil-bully Republicans “win.””
It is truly the rhetoric of a late-night infomercial, isn’t it. “Holy shit, if I don’t act in the next 15 minutes, I’m going to lose out on the opportunity of a lifetime. And I certainly wouldn’t want the quality of my life to suffer by not consuming this wonderful product. Honey, where’s the credit card?”
I’m reminded of a story I once read;
A telephone operator told an increasingly abusive pay-phone customer;
“I have two buttons here, one refunds your money, the other blows-up the telephone booth.”
Thanks DW, appreciate the backup.
;)
Thanks Jane some interesting comments and it looks like we all agree to disagree but at lest there is a conversation going on;)
More seriously, if someone has to bully or scare you into voting for their candidate, they’ve revealed that they have absolutely nothing to offer. It is a gangster tactic that demonstrates contempt for democracy: “Side with us or be damned!” Can you imagine voting out of fear?!
Beautifully said. Bravo.
I hope that you fully realize, Jane, that you and your clear support of Kevin and his efforts on many “fronts”, even those which you are, quite unfairly, taking flak for, is VERY much appreciated?
Many “thank you”s are due you, however, I hope that you might find one to be of some use?
Thank you, for ALL that you do, day in and day out.
As much as you may, please do not take uniformed lack of awareness, not to mention, patently silly ignorance, too personally … for it is aggravation not worth the bother of elevating your blood pressure or heart-rate.
If ya know what I mean?
;~DW
That is so special. Yes, compare Jane Hamsher to the lamestream media mavens. She is “fair and balanced” the same as our corporate spokesliars.
But I do not think so. You are just another critic telling everyone else what to do. Have you ever done anything? Stop with your unfair and unbalanced false equivalencies.
Get your own blog.
Well said, DW, and seconded.
I’m familiar with Richard Wolff and disagree with him precisely on this question. In terms of contemporary Marxist economists, I’m much more inclined towards Andrew Kliman. It’s no coincidence that Kliman’s analysis incorporates Marx’s law of the tendency of the rate of profit to fall and Wolff’s does not.
Although Wolff calls himself a Marxist, his analysis is (in its fundamentals) no different from the Keynesianism of Paul Krugman. You’re absolutely correct that, in his reading, profit rates in US manufacturing have not declined (and indeed have risen), and thus the move towards financialization and offshoring is driven by nothing more than the relentless greed of a capitalist class which, not satisfied with a healthy profit margin, demands ever more and more.
In a way, there’s something remarkably optimistic about this reading: American capitalism would be doing just fine if it weren’t for some greedy investors; thus all we have to do is restrain that greed, increase financial regulation, redistribute a bit of the wealth, and hey presto the capitalist economy will be back on track! His brand of underconsumptionism suggests that the only problem with the capitalist economy is wealth distribution, and thus that government intervention can effectively create a “healthy happy capitalism” that works for everyone’s benefit; this is the grand bargain underlying the European social experiment of the post-war period and this is what I mean by saying his orientation is fundamentally Keynesian.
This reading is also, in my opinion, that of a fairy story. In essence his is a morality tale, in which the failures of the capitalist system are not structural or intrinsic but personal and psychological. I feel like the ire in your response was based on your thinking I was somehow offering a defense of capitalism, so let me be clear: I in no way condone the financialization of the US economy and the demise of the working class, I simply think that these developments were more or less inevitable from within a capitalist perspective. This is also to say that I don’t think the capitalist economy can be “fixed” by a few reforms, increased regulation, a return to the hey-day of US industry or the weeding out of a few bad apples. I think the problems of capitalism are just that–intrinsic to capitalism–and that the solution we are seeking must be found beyond it.
Wolff does exactly what Marx warns against: moralizing the problem–a question of “greedy capitalists behaving badly”–instead of seeing accumulation as a structural necessity of the system as a whole. He also completely ignores the falling rate of profit issue, which Marx called the single most important law of capitalist economy. I don’t really see how he can call himself a Marxist without incorporating that.
The analysis of people like Kliman, who situate the roots of the crisis in falling profit rates, paint a considerably more complex and difficult picture, but also a less fabulistic one. In this reading, offshoring was not some willfully pernicious attempt to undermine the health of the broader US economy but a structurally necessary movement predicated on diminishing returns on US industry. Look at it this way: the start-up costs of moving your whole industry offshore are pretty astronomical; if you were making a healthy profit off your American shoe factory there’d be no real reason to move it to China. In my view, the motivation is not just greed, but increasingly desperate attempts to find a way to realize a profit. I think this reading proves more insightful.
In all of that, yes, the wealthy continue to amass more wealth, and income inequality has risen astronomically. But there’s no contradiction between saying that income inequality has risen in this country while rates of profit have declined; in my view, the declining profits are precisely what drove investment off-shore, enriching the elite and impoverishing middle America. It just makes the solution to the problem considerably more complex.
In my earlier post I advocated revisiting the stagflation of the 70s precisely *because* the interpretation we take of those events determines our future course: i.e., whether the problem can be fixed with a few reforms, or whether it lies deeper. I believe the last. In the context of the 70s, I also don’t think that’s controversial; while quite a few economists (Marxist and not) believe that rates of profit have been restored since roughly 1982, virtually *everyone* agrees that in the 1970s US profitability was declining. With all due respect, I think it’s your version that’s the myth.
For an analysis of Kliman, see this review: Andrew Kliman and the failure of capitalist production.
Well the PTB have used *fear* unceasingly, esp since Sept 11, 2001, to scare all citizens into going along with their draconian, fascist-state tactics, and, sadly, it’s worked pretty well – too well.
I think that *most* citizens vote out of fear. The whole POTUS Kabuki Show has turned into some weird kind of “America’s Got Talent” show, and it’s all about appeals to emotion, mostly fear.
The so-called “debates” are ridiculous circuses signifying EFF all, esp as the pundits afterwards specifically DIRECT you to “feel” a certain way. For me, it’s become a level of insanity.
I confess that I did *sort of* vote for Obama in 2008 out of a kind of fear, but I also gave the Dems *one last chance.* Well, the scales have been pulled from my eyes.
Again, I think the POTUS Kabuki Show “election” is mostly window dressing and signifies very very little. I feel that we do need to focus more on local and state issues, where we have some chance of truly making a difference.
JMHO, of course.
I do know what you mean DW, and I thank you.
In 2008 we made the decision we would not endorse a candidate in the Democratic primaries, because we didn’t there was any real policy distinction between Clinton and Obama, and it wasn’t worth tearing the site apart by choosing sides.
A lot of people I respect thought that was the the wrong decision at the time. Almost none of them thinks it was the wrong decision now. In retrospect I think we viewed the situation with very clear eyes, because there has been almost no daylight between Clinton and Obama over the past four years.
I’d hope that people would look back at the insanity of that time and think the better of getting sucked into presidential election hysteria again, but I understand why they do. I’m pretty sure, however, that 4 years from now I’ll look back and think we made the right decision once again to keep focused on what we do, and not get distracted by the fray.
It’s not called “the silly season” for nothing.
Keep up the good work! I really appreciate this site, those who post here, and your efforts most especially. Thanks!
I’m sorry to be so late and unable to read the many comments here. Scanning causes me to wonder if this is a debate on Socialism v. the limits of capitalism, or voting Obama v. Not.
But I’m trying to make my way through Coyote’s long piece (and gawds, reading him is better than listening to him; his his voice like nails on a chalkboard to me; I turn off every goddam PBS program he narrates), and found a few more passages to include. Comment if you will:
Which multiverse does he hail from that he couldn’t see how hard we tried to ‘make him do it’? It was he who shut down OFA and marginalized those of us who wanted him to keep at least some of his campaign promises!
I can easily grasp that the man may be nervous for his family’s safety. If that were the case, he should NEVER have run for a second term. He’s been so passive, so disdained his large bully pulpit to make a case to the nation whose citizens could leverage their Congress-critters, that one could easily surmise that he really didn’t care for his job, and should have quit it long ago. Margins. Heh. Pretty words aren’t margins, they are just pretty words, and sadly, too many people only hear them, and fail to look for the truth of his rule.
Peter also disregards the fact that as far as capitalism as a culprit, this President clearly did almost everything in his power to ensure that Phil Angelides modern ‘Pecora Commission’ was a sham, and that Obama and his cronies tanked every meaningful bits of financial regulation brought forward. Ergo: he didn’t even want capitalism reigned in, policed, investigated or fraud prosecuted.
Sure, it’s an argument, as would be massively decreasing our military footprint over the globe, but at one point Obama’s stated plans for a massive new renewable energy push not reliant on hydrocarbons…got lost in the shuffle. Too bad, too. But it’s a poor talking point, Mr. Coyote. IMO, of course.
This part makes me shiver with its cavalier disregard of the PTB and MICC that caused this need to be called anti-life, which is evil in my book.
(
Blink. Blink.
Oh, and pardon me, cassiodorus: thank you, and rec’d. And thank you, Jane Hamsher, for front-paging it. ;o)
And, cue the Monty Python reference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31FFTx6AKmU
They stand the test of time
Bugger; hate to interrupt again, but the BAR newsletter just came in, and the ‘Is this really the most important election ever’ is represented by a new Bruce Dixon column. Issues of interest predominantly to blacks, of course. But it may be of interest here.
It’s nice to see you here wendydavis! I read those passages you quoted, and thought: well, yeah, Obama can appear to be a pretty sympathetic guy on the surface. But the idea that progressives are going to ‘make him do it’ is belied by the fact that said same progressives are too weak-willed to withhold their votes, and have thus dug a hole of about three decades of irrelevance. So now if they could follow through on the first step of ‘make him do it,’ and vote for Stein…
Jane, the fact that you allow “the discussion” to occur, as the understanding and perceptions of the individual members of this community evolve, that you permit a range of viewpoints among your front pagers, is unique and quite exceptional (in the very best sense of that word), that you have consistently argued FOR reason and for rational debate, does me old heart good. It also builds that most important thing … known as TRUST.
Trust is at the very heart of democracy AND it is the soul of civil society, it is not easily restored when lost, and never easily or often retrievable when it has been abused …
I consider that you are far too kind to the “season of silliness” as it it is being turned, by the political class (which includes SCOTUS, more and more blatantly, and the lap-dog media, as well as the usual suspects), into a “splendid” debauch of spendthrift notions and threadbare “conscience” most all in the service of puny and piteous self-inflated egos … even as the people must find threads that bind all of us together and the courage to insist that conscience and actual principle are not luxury items, but basic necessities …
Carry on, Jane as you are, and FDL is … please.
Frankly, its getting better all the time, much more than a bit.
And that’s my two-bits.
;~DW
x2 h/t Jane
I keep digging this clip up, because I think it’s entirely true
Lawrence O’Donnell and William Greider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B37zCueHfFM
I remember just-folks like us urging public folks to challenge Obama in the primary season. No one would do it. And why is that?
Who knows, maybe he wouldn’t still be running.
Thanks for all you do, wendydavis.
“. . . the pivotal question is one of whether or not we will resist them.”
Indeed. That is precisely the relevant question.
I agree, the fact that we are even having this conversation amongst progressives so close to the election is a small victory in itself. The democrats must be worried that the robots are really going to boycott the sugaman. LOL- He is so eager to the republicans dirty work he can hardly stand the wait. He will probably win but at least I can say I didnt vote for him this time. Ohio swing voter for Jill Stein, it does not take courage not to vote for Obama it takes conviction.He does not stand for what I stand for so it was an easy decision for me to vote for someone who does.
America’s revolution was a reaction to a corporation. This is what America has forgotten. Slavery and civil war. Then came the monopolies, industrialists and financial houses, whose greed and speculation tanked the economy after the civil war.
Our history is short and filled with repeats. So how many times do you get to stick the hair pin in the electrical socket before you fry? Until corporate power is effectively reigned in by constitutional amendment, out liberal representative constitutional republic is not safe. It requires adopting Jefferson’s and Madison’s original 11th amendment, regulating corporations hence corporate aristocrats. The one’s Jefferson feared would tank the republic, lusting for profit, while paying homage to Mammon’s appendage…
I would suggest that Dixon’s is of genuine and major interest to every human being, wendy, regardless of skin color.
Thank you for the link.
I hope that many will click that link!
DW
Dixon’s article at Black Agenda Report.
Just to be clear.
DW
I never stated a belief in a willful attempt to undermine the economy, I merely observed that our elites act with near total indifference as to the effects their behavior have on the majority.
My basic questions amount to this;
Upon what rests the expectation of ever-increasing return on investments?
How is it that each successive generation of financiers not only expects, but somehow feels entitled to beat the returns reaped by their fathers?
Even a cursory examination of the contrasts between Mitt Romney’s and His father’s careers would go a long way to making my point.
I’m sorry, but I just disagree.
These developments are only inevitable if you consider the capitalist’s purchase of our government, the subsequent dismantling of regulatory controls, subversion of the tax code and vilification of organized labor to be the result of the operation of the laws of physics.
All of these developments are the ‘natural’ outcome, not of the ‘laws’ of economic systems, but the un-restrained behavior of human beings.
The very rich and powerful few, have overtaken a comfortable, inattentive and credulous people, subverted their government and inadvertently or not, destroyed what was for a while, a very good thing.
The issue is not which ‘myth’ is ‘true’; it’s which one is more useful.
I believe the story you are telling, whether that is your intent or not, originates in an effort to obscure.
Jane, defensive? Sorry, it doesn’t fit you. YOU were THE one who wrote, let’s meet in Nevada to campaign AGAINST Harry Reid. You were the one who hired Jon and unleashed him to provide THE VERY BEST coverage of Obama’s HCR on the Internet AND in the media, you were the one who’s pushed and pushed for Bradley Manning. It makes no sense for your team to sit out this election (a talent like Jon reporting for months on the horse race?) just because Obama’s the overwhelming electoral favorite. We ALL know, Obama’s a sleezy Chicago Pol. – he holds grudges forever and you’ll be the LAST person his team calls, regardless what you do. So, why concede FDL’s spot as the very first place ideological Progressives turn to for “real” news? Sorry if it offends you, but I believe this election was a tremendous missed opportunity for you and your team to make the clear argument that Progressive ideology is way more important than Party politics.
Certainly not inadvertent. It was by design and predicted. Credulous people once awoken to debauchery are nasty like bears coming out of hibernation. They eat people…
Spot on analysis, Watt4Bob.
What happened was neither accidental nor done with the best of intentions.
The elites determined, in the 1970′s, that they no longer had need of the American workforce, that the nation’s capacity to produce, for it itself, BY itself, the necessities of life, rendering the nation and its people vulnerable and less secure an issue of genuine Nation Security, as is the health and well-being.
That the elites intended to bankrupt this nation is shown by the effort to entice the “government” to buy the worthless “derivative junk” which the banking elite KNOWINGLY sold, in a form of fraudulent conversion, to a public whose futures the banker full knew were NOT secure. Bluntly, I am suggesting that the banking elite KNEW, in advance, that most borrowers would lose their jobs, and such information, when it is known MUST be shared with the prospective borrower, else an act of criminal omission has occurred, further, knowing that default was inevitable, the banking elite destroyed the two hundred year old system of county real estate transfer, setting up MERS to further deprive society of revenue and the means of securing clear title, and then, as I described @42, when it all unraveled as they knew and ANTICIPATED, to their own advantage that it would, the banking elite “persuaded”, as many may remember, the political elite, to turn over the equivalent of all that this nation had spent financing ALL of its wars and “wars”, all of its infrastructure and all of it social programs, that much and more … while millions lost their homes, their jobs, and their hopes for a better future for themselves, their children, and their grandchildren.
ANY suggestion that this was done in the name of socially required “efficiency” or justifiable civic “need” is utter, total, and complete poppycock.
DW
“Upon what rests the expectation of ever-increasing return on investments? How is it that each successive generation of financiers not only expects, but somehow feels entitled to beat the returns reaped by their fathers?”
Aristocratic entitlement, corporate style. Its a virus. That Cincinnati Society and its heirs apparent should have been crushed. The enthroned corporation and the monied elites need a collective swift kick in the “nuts” from the governed. Bullies once drilled in testicles tend to be more reasonable, for the most part.
I agree.
“You can’t stay neutral on a moving train” – Howard Zinn
Well said.
“I just wish you would also elevate the focus of the issue of the destructive nature of our legacy parties. FDL isn’t afraid to take a stand on many issues and could take a clear and strong stand on this issue as well. To date you have opened a very encouraging discussion but have tended to adopt the “fair and balanced” approach we see so often in the mainstream media rather than taking a clear moral stand like you do on other issues.”
Where’s that FDL diary of you at a Keystone protest?
Where’s that FDL diary of you getting arrested for Manning?
Where’s that FDL diary of you filing but not paying your federal income taxes as a protest.
What scares the hell out of me is that thanks to all-time-talkers like you, we’re already past the point of the Weimar Gov’t in pre-Hitler Germany.
Lead by example.
At least Matthewj did an FDL diary back in 2011. What have you done?
Lead by example.
I apologize, cassiodorus, for not participating in a timely manner. I hope you understand that RL often supersedes what we do here, and that was the case for me today.
I needed, among other things, to focus on printing the birrrrd and flower cards that I sell in town to make a bit of money. I was alerted to the fact recently that ‘an empty rack…sells no cards’. ;o) So, beyond tending to my own post, trying to slowly create another one, and reading for yours…I lost control of the time/space continuum we are all rather constrained by. Great discussion, and thank you. (I’ll read the comments later.)
Please, BooRadley. Comments by denizens are important, but your litmus tests are far too stringent and irrelevant to boot. Please rethink those. We all can strive to serve what we perceive as the greater good without those metrics. Kelly Canfield often bashes me with his standards, and by his lights, I never measure up.
Please! You are a good man, and dedicated. But we don’t all need to ride the same horse to the Re-imagined and Better Land.
A scathing indictment. But you forgot to mention why and how the elites knew people would lose their jobs and homes. In America every time the cost of energy has risen in a dramatic fashion all costs rise. Speculation driving oil to $147.50 per barrel starting in January of 2007 at $56.61 with a high of $147.50 in July of 2008, 18 month later, imploded this economy. Sucked the well dry?
America imploded in part due to speculation concerning railways in 1873. The collapse of the railways was a bubble burst that killed commerce. $147.50 oil killed commerce and strangled an economy because of speculation, causing implosion once again. This is what the elites knew by driving the price of oil to an all time high, after selling fraudulent CDO/MBS securities rated triple AAA, then bet the short, on ensured mortgage default? It’s like watering down stock by printing more shares, and fleecing the shareholder….
Your blunt assessment is spot on. This was a conspiracy to commit fraud to deprive people of property by financial institutions, profit, then pass the risk off to the republic. Jefferson is correct in his fear of corporations, aristocratic and money’s undue influence on policy making. Its quite disgusting….
DW: Sorry not to be clearer. Your comment on my post seemed to clearly and directly argue that Obama and Romney are equivalently “bought off”. What my point actually is is that no matter how beholden Obama is to financial interests, the level of hostility toward Progressivism will indeed be more muted under a Democratic administration than under a Republican one. Obama had to back-channel through Rahm his “shut up and go along with the program, it’s all we can get” message, and while I’m hopeful that might change I’m definitely not betting on it, and that’s a heck of a lot better than what Romney is likely to do with a win which is (sorry to invoke Godwin’s Law) to turn Progressives into the Jews of the Fourth Reich.
My post is pointing out the fact that we probably WILL be doing battle AGAINST Obama during his second term, but that with enough perseverance we can keep moving the Progressive ball down the field in SPITE of Obama and his proven strong ties to financial interests.
Seriously, I’d rather have the likes of Rahm calling me an idiot and “unrealistic”, than have Mitt’s storm troopers actively working to ensure that the media is buried in the message “Progressivism is evil, anti-American and must be stamped out in order to save the country.”
So, to answer your question, I’m actually granting that your arguments are absolutely true, but they miss my point: which of those two environments–admittedly both hostile to Progressivism–are going to be easier to operate in in attempting to advance Progressive causes?
I know that war analogies get lost in liberal arguments, but really, Obama is an insignificant bump in the Progressive movement. “Winning the battle,” to show him what we all think of him by making sure he loses and gets the message, means that yah we “won” and showed him we don’t like his milquetoast policies. But that’s only important if you think that getting that point across is the most important thing you can do to advance Progressivism. I argue that it is “Losing the War” because it ensures a more hostile environment to operate in.
In my mind Beating Obama is not the most strategic move here. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a piece in order to win the chess game. I DO NOT argue with people who think that Obama is an idiot, but I think it’s pretty clear that no matter how much we ALL dislike his policies, I’d rather keep him where he is and give him hell for four more years than kick him out immediately (no matter how good it would feel!) because it gives my kid a better chance at a truly progressive world in the future.
Again, my BIG thanks to Jane for kicking us ALL in the butt and making us think when it’s all too easy to just react.
“We must believe it is possible . . .”
Exactly.
“. . . I’d rather keep him where he is and give him hell for four more years . . .”
By what mechanism will this be possible? Or, if we could put ourselves in Obama’s shoes, why would we care, as a lame duck President, about Progressives who have already given us their vote? If Team Obama called Progressives “fucking retarded” when they still had the potential to get another four years, why would they respond any differently when they have no where to go but out of office?
Obama’s disdain for Progressives is right up there for his disdain for the middle class and his contempt for the rule of law.
The banking elite, just coincidentally happened to know the corporate elite … to whom they loaned money to “off-shore” American industry, plant by plant, job by job … Remember when the housing “bubble” began to take off? Like other bubbles it was cynically engineered by those who would profit while it expanded, when it popped … and after it popped …
The banks loaned money all through the bubble AND “consolidated” more and more power all during the “party”. Community banks were deemed “ineffective”, so money moved out of town, thousands of miles away, to the Big Banks, just about in the way that local stores were driven out of business by Walmart, who had made a “deal”, made possible by “trade agreements” developed by government, with the Chinese.
Recall Perot’s “great sucking sound” … it happened with jobs, with money, with this nation’s capacity to provide for itself … and guess what, a few, the precious few, prospered … Remember, wages stagnated, in the 1970′s, but productivity kept going up, while “management” got to keep ALL of the surplus, … and so, “credit” was “sold” by those Big Banks which sucked all the money from Main Street into THEIR coffers, and then they lent some of it BACK to the people at VERY high interest rates … and then everybody was told, as the housing bubble was expanding, that homeowners had equity in their homes … so … as wages stagnated, credit and home “equity” allowed consumers to imagine that they could afford anything … but the BIG Bankers knew, they knew that it was junk that they sold to pension funds and to cities, to individuals who would not, in many cases, even have jobs in four or five years, even the data processing jobs, for the banks, were going to be off-shored … and the banking elite, therefore, knew that a crunch was coming, and that THEY would have to be “saved”, for they were virtuous and to this very day are held up as “successful” as “the smartest guys in the room” … because they walked off with all of the money … and that does not even make mention of the dirty money, the drug money, the other tainted money, those Big Banks “laundered” … which they have also never been held to proper account for doing … and which money, btw, amounts to many, many hundreds of billions.
They knew, JamesJoyce, they knew, they profited, and then they got the government to give them trillions to do with as they wished …
DW
Yah, that’s *exactly* what I’m getting at.
By what mechanism? My BOOTS fella!
If you think that it’s not possible under Obama, then obviously if he’s the same as Romney, then there’s nothing that we can do and we should all give up.
I’ll keep repeating this: I agree with you, I don’t think Obama will lift a finger if we help him win and then just go ask politely if he’ll now do what we ask. But if that’s what we do, then we get what we deserve.
Please listen: putting Obama back in is the START OF THE BATTLE, it just gives us better field position. He’s STILL going to be the obstacle, but if we follow up the election with a steady, focused–and as several suggested above–LOCAL Progressive movement, we can push him into a corner.
This is not about Obama. I don’t give a frack about Obama, I want to optimize my position for the next battle in the war for Progessivism.
You might want to ask yourself the question: is Obama Derangement Syndrome *really* only something that affects those on the right? WHY is everyone so obsessed with teaching him a lesson or showing him he lost our support? What good does that do, especially AFTER he loses?
Obama is not the main obstacle to a more progressive future, and obsessing about teaching him a lesson does not get us there. Honest!
x2 Very well put. Thanks.
I appreciate your thoughtful reply, Buffy, yet I am in agreement with otto, @ 189. What is the means and mechanism of holding Obama to account? He will owe no one anything except those whom he loyally serves.
We, the people have sacrificed quite enough, it is not eleven dimensional chess we “play”, it is our society and the Rule of Law which we have lost, as well as trust, our wealth, and whatever good name we might, once, have had. WE have been deliberately impoverish, lied into wars, our children have been robbed of their future and we have been robbed of of meaningful endeavor excepting to resist the depredations of either “end” of the Legacy Party … two arms of the “squid” that leaves no dollar behind … that cares not a whit about conscience or life.
The elite wish to even control the genetics of life, to sell terminator seeds and control the food, the water, the energy necessary to life.
I consider Obama quite as much “their man” as Romney … indeed and in fact, the more effective and “efficient” agent of greed and hegemonic hubris.
Clearly, we disagree, yet neither of us needs to term the other “stupid” or effin’ retarded. I would venture to suggest that we both know, that regardless of who wins, that our jobs of resistance are clearly evident to each of us … as well, most here, at FDL, are fully aware of what is required of them in the days, the months and the years ahead and, as a dear departed great friend of ours would say:
“No war but class war
Be good to yourselves and all other living things
Namaste
Never.Give.Up.”
DW
I didn’t vote for Obama the first time. I simply could not make myself do it. And I admit I resent having the party I supported for 35 years taken away from me. I did not believe Obama. I thought he was a corporate stooge. I wanted to be wrong. But I still believe that. He talks nice to women now, but I remember his betrayal.
But, if he hadn’t gone and started bombing the shit out of the whole world, I might have voted for him this time though. But he did. I do not like drones. I do not like war. I do not like spying on Americans, or killing them with no trial. I do not like NDAA. He did not make the torturers pay, but he has charged every whistleblower he can hunt down with treason. These things offend me deeply. I disagree with him on economy, but maybe I’d vote for him because I hate everything Republicans stand for. But these things are tearing apart what I thought it meant to be an American and they hurt my soul. I am ashamed of my country and I’m tired of it. I’ve felt this way for 11 years.
I voted for Jill Stein and I’m from Colorado. I get so angry when people suggest that voting my conscience is wrong (knowing that voting for Obama would offend my conscience). They know that Obama is a bad choice, but voting for someone who has the same ideals I do is wrong. Since when???
I voted for Carter both times and I’m not ashamed of that. I voted for Mondale and Dukakis. I liked them. I still believe they would have been good for America. They got their asses handed to them, but I still I made the right choice. And I do not think voting my conscience is ever throwing my vote away. I am tired of the lesser evil story. There are non-evil choices. And if Obama loses it is not my fault. It is his fault. He should have stood up for the America I believed in.
My question was not rhetorical. It was genuine. Perhaps I am not considering some device by which Obama might be “given hell” by Progressives after his reelection.
So, you plan to kick him?
I see no reason to conflate an inability to influence a lame duck President in the employ of corporate interests with giving up. Such a conflation gives way too much credit and power to voting and the politicians we are asked to “choose” between. If voting was one of the most important acts a US citizen could do in our representative democracy, this conflation might be legitimate.
“but if we follow up the election with a steady, focused–and as several suggested above–LOCAL Progressive movement, we can push him into a corner.”
Yes, I appreciate your position. How, specifically will this work, and why will it influence Obama? How, specifically, will Obama be pushed into a corner? Do we assume that Obama answers to voters over those who have bankrolled him?
If it is not about Obama, why bother giving him hell? Why bother with him at all?
If you are asking me, I certainly don’t care about something as silly as “teaching Obama a lesson.” He never had my support to begin with. He and Romney are the TV figureheads of those who paid them to get the job. Frankly, I don’t see why Microsoft, JPMorgan, Bank of America, et. al. don’t just get together and put up computer generated candidates.
Or to put this another way, if you or I are not one of the entities that helped provide the half a billion dollars in campaign “donations” for Obama, why would he–or any similarly “elected” President–give a fuck about what we said or did?
Supreme good on you, apishapa.
Namaste.
DW
It is a strange phrase, “voting your conscience.” It is redundant. Voting, unless someone is holding a gun to your head, is by definition an act of conscience. If it is not, then it is meaningless.
But some say, “No, one can’t afford to vote their conscience when the stakes are this high. I am going to vote candidate A, not because I agree with his platform, but because he has a chance of beating that which I fear more.” Well, that is still voting your conscience.
Maybe, these voters have bad consciences? Maybe they have let fear weaken their consciences? Maybe folks with bad consciences can’t stand to see others with better consciences act on them as it points out their inability to do better? If you can’t vote your conscience when the stakes are high–in others words when it counts–what is the fucking point of even having a conscience?
Don’t let folks who disparage you for voting your conscience get you down. Politically, your conscience is the only thing you have as a starting point. What these folks are really trying to do is bully you into doing what they want. This bullying is a demeaning, objectifying act that betrays a high degree of disrespect for democracy. It is precisely the same authoritarian, tribalistic tactic employed by the Rush Limbaughs of the world.
Or to put it another way, why should we care if he cares? :O
I voted for Dr. Stein on Monday. And for State Rep. Sharon Cissna, who is the Democratic Party challenger this time around to U.S. Rep. Don Young.
I didn’t hesitate to vote fo Jill Stein. I’ve never voted for an incumbent president since the first time I had an opportunity, in 1972.
“As for financialization being a “necessity,” two things: 1) the elites could all retire tomorrow on the wealth they’ve accumulated, so it’s hard for me to envision the further accumulation of elite wealth as a “necessity,””
I took Bennett’s use of the word “necessity” to mean the inevitable evolution of a capitalist empire from a production-based economy to a financed-based economy a al the Spanish or the British..
I’ve made my position on where I will be placing my energy. With that being said, I can see an argument for both strategies and am not convinced they could not coexist and be a coalition on many issues.
The truth is that if we manage to get a third party into the system that over time we might face the same problems as we’ve had with the Democrats because I have little doubt that the puppeteers would try and figure out a way to co opt or buy out its players. So the truth is that we need an effective lever to force the parties to respond to us. The best way is to ensure some sort of third progressive option is always on standby(sending the message to those at the top that there IS always a place to go)
I don’t think it is in anybody’s interest to call someone who is largely your ally a “sellout” or a “pie eyed purist” because you differ with them on whether it is strategically smart to work within the parameters of an already existing popular party or if it is your opinion that it is strategically better to create a third option that can be utilized to leverage your vote during election cycles. We need to work together and spend our energy on fighting a political system that insists we should be marginalized rather than each other.
What a sad state of denial that so many people still believe we have or ever really had a functioning Republic. People still cling desperately to the Myth that our leaders can be moved by the will of the people when they state openly that public opinion will not affect their decisions.
The even more pathetic notion is that we can vote our conscience and claim that as resisting the evils of the system. Voting in an evil corrupt system, even for a good honest candidate, is still supporting and giving your consent to be governed by that evil corrupt system.
I believe that most people here are looking for a way out of the madness we inhabit but voting and submitting to this tyrany will never set us free.
This is the closest thing we actually have to the old fashioned notion that both sides to an argument should be presented and both cases should be made so that people can make an informed decision when they come to a decision IMO.
I’m actually happy that Jane isn’t picking sides AND I’ve picked a side. I heartily think she’s smart to keep the site more issue focused rather than make it a montage to a particular political party.
“… WHY is everyone so obsessed with teaching him a lesson or showing him he lost our support? What good does that do, especially AFTER he loses?”
I don’t believe anyone in these comments have expressed the ‘teach him a lesson’ sentiment, Buffy. I have read other comments elsewhere that do express something about Democrats in general becoming envigorated by defeat – that is, that out of power they seem to have more energy to oppose Republican tactics than when they have control.
It seems dubious at best, I will agree with you, to count on this, since obviously they are reluctant to do the same when they do have power, which they were given by the electorate in 2008. So, their ‘opposition’ may be seen as a kabuki show, not really having much effect and purposefully so.
You do not seem to see the absolute dominance of both parties by corporate interests that we see. And I am surprised you do not gravitate as many of us have done to one of the third parties which spurn such corporate influence as has been so destructive to democracy. Jill Stein takes no corporate funding. Obama does. You dance with the folks that brung you. As I read on an insightful essay today, Obama has danced with those folks since before his inauguration. And, he’s just not into us, boots or no boots.
I’m voting for Jill – can’t wait to do so next week; it shall feel wonderful.
I will say, though, that I do think it is helpful
Sorry about that incompleted sentence above – I haven’t the foggiest what I intended to say – guess it is way past my bedtime!
Let me chime in with a few more points on which Peter Coyote’s arguments should be dismissed.
For one thing, by late October 2008, Obama himself campaigned as though he had been taken over by the spirit of Dennis Kucinich. He talked about how there was for the moment a necessity of allowing the Big Banks their Bailouts. But he adds to the discussion,that if the Big Banks don’t take the responsibility of handing back the money given to them by Main Street back to Main Street, via loans, than he, Obama, will see to it that such restrictions come into play once he is in office.
(Youtubes that show these speeches of Obama’s are still up – just google “YouTube” + Obama + October 2008 + wisconsin)
It should be pointed out that while Obama was saying these things, the Middle Class in the USA was fed up. We were not happy with the Big Bankers and the Big Finance people. The Banking/Financial crowd had scammed the system. They had created yet another bubble – this time the Housing Bubble.
But this is a most important fact: Then they not only had this bubble operating in their favor – they went and created exotic instruments by which they gambled lover a half quadrillion dollars, that is, a five hundred trillion dollars worth of bets! And then they lost!
So there were two possible futures for us in Late Fall 2008. In one scenario, Obama takes it upon himself to ally himself with the Progressive Caucus of Democrats in the House, some of whom served with Kucinich on the House Governmental Oversight of Financial Matters Committee. Upon his victory of the Oval Office, he announces that he will be dismissing Bernanke, and will be appointing Kucinich himself to head up the Treasury. Since Obama spent the last month of the campaign using Dennis Kucinich talking points, it wouldn’t have been a shock to real people that he was doing this. And those who acted shocked, well, they could be told, “Look, I am the clear choice, I am the one people voted for, and the people don’t want things to continue as they are. Main Street should not be looted for Wall Street, not under my watch, not any longer.”
Now had that tack been taken, our entire economy would have been invigorated across the board, and not just in the financial sectors. Instead, Obama choose to do what a George W or a McCain or Rmoney would do – he simply let everything continue as it was. He appointed Tim Geithner to head Treasury. He also left alone George W’s appointment of Bernanke to head the Federal Reserve, and later on, Obama re-appointed Bernanke.
Thanks to Senator Bernie Sanders’ insistence, we the public did get a peek into the Federal Reserve, and through that peek, we saw that Bernanke has given over some fifteen to sixteen trillions of dollars to the Biggest Financial Players. And those Players simply sit on those monies, for the most part. (Except of course, during election cycles, when they suddenly loosen their control of the money and throw it into the campaign coffers of people like Rmoney and Ryan.)
So what does it mean that Obama betrayed his progressive stance of October 2008? Well for one thing, we now live in a world tht would have been unthinkable under even a Nixon.; (Nixon hated the Big Banking crowd.) Some 49 cents out of every dollar of profit generated in this nation now goes directly to the Big Banking Firms, because of Obama’s “decision” to let the Big Masters of Finance take the reins of the nation’s financial policy.
(It would require another twenty minute to let a reader see that those two masters, Bernanke and Geithner, have pretty much done the bidding of two firms – AIG and Goldman Sachs!)
And these actions and non-actions of Obama’s make the “modern day America” a far different place than the America of our parents and grandparents, where only 8 to 9 cents out of every dollar of profit went to the big Financial And Banking firms.
To sum it all up – this nation, as a democracy, is DONE, and you can stick a fork in it.
Yr comment, and my butt – you just had me laugh it off!
Wow. Thank you. I have been trying to put together how I feel about my life as a Democrat, but now I don’t need to. You summed up my thoughts and feelings exactly.
Isn’t it amazing- we have all the money in the world to fund the banking sector or the military sector but absolutely no money at all to ensure that children and their families have health care or the elderly can retire and aren’t forced to eat cat food.
The thing is – for anyone progressive to see their name on on the Dem ticket – they have to cozy up to the Powers that be for close to a decade (if not two decades.) Before the lot of us that were truly progressive got weeded out from “Democratic Underground,” I learned a lot about this.
In fact, one thing I learned was that Rahm Emanuel spent much of his time from 2005 onward seeing to it that NO progressives, except in very isolated situations like Madison WI, ever got on the Dem ticket. He made sure that the money from the Dem party coffers went to the most conservative person running in any district. And then that conservative person would win the primary and the progressive usually learned to join some Third Party. Given that this was the case, and that Rahm then became Chief of Staff, what does this tell us all about Mr Obama? (Hint – the Dems in true leadership roles wanted to ensure that Obama would be able to rely on someone who understood that the Dem Party is actually simply the less anti-woman version of the Republican Party. Until Obama got his sea legs in office, he had Rahm to assist him in such things as how to avoid weighing in on the Health Care debate, in any meaningful way, etc. Now that Obama has watched Rahm in action, he is able to stand on his own and screw the middle class over exactly as he was taught by his mentor Rahm!)
I am rather sure that one of Rahm’s mentors was probably Diane Feinstein – she has been a huge power broker in all matters relating to who gets to run as a Democrat in any election. And of course, at times, I suspect she makes the big bucks by throwing the election the other party’s way. (Which she did in two of the last three Calif. gubernatorial elections)
http://youtu.be/fRamB30E9mU
lol!
I’ve been a part of this fdl community long enough to realize a few things, and your comment brought me to mention some. You wrote:
From the early comments to this diary, it appears Jane saw this diary’s potential for bringing people into an engaged conversation. She wrote:
The Stoller-Coyote debate is an important one, which echos the discussion happening within the community at FDL. I’m going to put this on the front page and I hope it encourages a thoughtful and respectful conversation.
There are valid points on both sides and the issue is far from settled. Please be respectful of others as we all sort our way through this difficult challenge together.
Soon afterward, it got front-paged, and the result has been what she hoped for – “a thoughtful and respectful conversation.”
There have been a number of diaries here on the 2012 presidential election that got pretty bare-knuckled and bloody in the comment sections. Maybe people are less feisty in the comments to this one because it seems obvious Obama will win, or that many of us have already voted, or – like this girl – we’re just plain tired of the damned presidential contest hype. It probably has more to do with how well cassiodorus parsed the Stoller-Coyote dialogue.
You’re right that fdl has managed to stay issue-focused. And very progressive, we need to remember. Articles like this one, published here, are
an Americana world treasure.So, you don’t have a single tactic by which to “give [Obama] hell” after he is reelected other than “My BOOTS fella!” ? The price of influencing the President is higher than some free footwear.
Watt4Bob@92
Perhaps, my mind isn’t as nimble as it once was, but political construct is to be “fun” and “personal,” nonethless.
Take, for example, back in the 1970s, both Raul Castro, the now former governor of Arizona (and one of my several mentors) and Coretta Scott King crafted what has been America’s Human Rights Agenda and which is part and parcel to Public Law. As such, Progressives did the heavy lifting and Jimmy Carter elevated himself into our affection, just as FDR and Lyndon Johnson have elevated themselves, and thusly, President Obama is no where to be found among these, our political elites. Regardless, of my pontification, Progressives, should continue to pat themseleves on the back, but their is no “joy” among America’s progressives.
Today, we, here in the Sonoran Desert joke that the construct for “Clinton Podrido” or the Clinton putrefaction, continues apace. Take, for example, Arizona’s current State Attorney General, a well-known and highly regarded married man, was having an extra-marital affair with a fellow staffer, an Assistant AG, and today, Tom Horne is undergoing the indignity for Clinton’s putrefaction, and we take joy in the “unassailable” fact. Consequently, when Clinton shows up in our Sonoran Desert, we quietly chuckle relative to an “insider’s” joke.
Jaango
cassiodorus@93
Obviously, the “meltdown” sizably reduced the wealth in the Latino community, writ large, but the other side of this “wealth coin” comes from our following behavior.
Take, for example, then Senator Obama “lost” in Arizona in 2008 by 200,000 votes. Today, we have now registered over 194,000 votes since 2008, and are just shy of “carrying” Arizona for President Obama in this election cycle. And these votes are “progressive.”
Consequently, and despite the slings and arrows inflicted onto us by the GOP, the GOP operatives are seeing their political demise as their “writing on the wall.” Thusly, the recent effort by the County election’s office for sending out 2,000 letters and in which these letters had the election wrong, can be called a “political” mistake, but when this behavior occurred a second time, it was intentional.
Unfortunately, the current cabal for the mea culpa, brings forth our apparent contempt for the proverbial Fear of the Brown Menace that is practiced by the GOP, and friends and allies among the “conservative” Democrats. Nonethless, our “wealth” in votes continues to accrue and will for the many political battles we will encounter in the large number of years to come.
Jaango
My statement was specifically in the context of whether or not to vote for Democratic party candidates. In that context I do believe it is true. Have you ever seen Jane take a solid stand on that issue?
I am not telling anyone what to do any more than anyone else who takes a stand on an issue. I’m pretty sure if Jane didn’t support gay marriage most people here would probably be upset and might even leave the site. The issue of abandoning any illusions about Democrats and lesser evils is the most critical issue that must be met head on in my opinion. If we fail to do that we will not make any progress that requires legislative power. Jane is free to do what she wishes. If she doesn’t take a stand on this issue I will continue to be disappointed and may stop coming here at some point.
I participated heavily in Occupy for several months. Beyond that I can’t claim to have done much in the way of direct action but that is beside the point.
What scares me is that despite all the direct action of others we continue to slide into authoritarianism, fascism, and climate crisis with full and willing complicity of the Democrats, and in the last four years with the leadership of the Democrats. Yet despite this so many are still defending the idea of supporting them with a vote because they are a “lesser” evil. Direct action *is not* going to make sufficient progress unless it is coupled with sufficient changes in the halls of power. That change *is not* going to come from Democrats.
Jane hasn’t done much in the way of defending Democrats or the idea of voting for them. What she appears to me to be doing is staying neutral on that question. It looks to me like she’s scared of losing what is probably at least half of her leadership or she believes direct action can succeed even as the corporate uniparty maintains a monopoly on power. Either of these scenarios is frustrating and disappointing for me.
I should add that I would not be frustrated or disappointed about any of this if I wasn’t so grateful for everything else that happens here at FDL. It is precisely because this site and community see so many issues so clearly and take so much important action that I have come to have very high expectations of FDL. I just don’t understand why the issue of Democrats and lesser evils is such a sticky one for so many people to overcome.
And these 194,000 voters are going to confront two parties both of which intend to keep them poor. Suggesting that third party formation is only an Anglo phenomenon is not likely to give you leverage. Once again, Lawrence O’Donnell and William Greider:
http://youtu.be/B37zCueHfFM
Let me be more specific. You do not seem as malicious as some who attack FDL.
Before I decided that the Cable Tee Vee was too expensive, I occasionally watched Fair and Blanced. “Fair and Balanced we see so often” is the Fox News Network. Fox News is controlled by Rupert Murdoch, and Roger Ailes, and KKKarl Rove. These are all evil people who spread war propaganda for profits. You are linking Fox News to FDL, by comparing the “approach” of FDL to Fox. So STOP IT.
That is not really clever by half, closer to clever by a fourth. There was another clever comparison recently, of FDL to the Nazi Gestapo. You really need some credibility before you tell others what “moral stand” they should follow.
All the cable tee vee is corporate controlled anyway. The mainstream is almost totally lamestream corporate lies. I suggest that you stop consuming the mainstream media and turn off your tee vee.
Well said.
Can I go all “hitchiker’s guide to the galaxy” on you?
Can I quote a not-so-savory Frank Herbert?
Let’s unpack this sentence: “That change *is not* going to come from Democrats.: the Democratic establishment? Democratic Party members? Democratic voters? There is a huge difference in how large the job is depending on which of those you mean.
Another quote:
Direct action by the Occcupy movement changed the conversation about the economy and the PtB have spent lots of money and effort this season trying to hype the national debt as a bigger issue than the political control by the 1%. And too many low information voters have bought this. But the economic situation is not going to change as long as austerity is the prescription.
Direct action is going on right now to prevent the XL Keystone tar sands pipeline from being constructed by stealing private property for the benefit of a private corporation through public eminent domain. When framed in terms of property rights, this issue and the issue of preferential mineral rights that are in fracking bills is going to be huge. More people need to get out and get involved in this issue locally because it cuts across the normal ideological dividing lines.
The elephant in the room, the iceberg in the sea, the hidden major issue in direct action is the total privatization of public space, even that space that is nominally held in trust by government. This is the iceberg that the Occupy movement ran into that exposed how deeply t he national security state had become engrained in post 9-11 American life. Without fixing this issue, nonviolent direct action becomes marginalized and personally dangerous, reducing the number of people willing to participate.
There are people who are Democratic voters who are involved in these direct actions and there are Ron Paul supporter involved in these direct actions and Green Party voters and tons of socialists and other independent voters.
Hyping divisions just because one is electioneering during silly season is a poor way to move this movement forward. And this is true regardless of which party your commitments are with this year.
If you’ve had it with the Democratic Party, stick with the alternative party you’ve chosen and work to build it from the bottom up – from local elections to state to national. Put good, smart, ethical people into local office, watch them like a hawk, and see that they build the name recognition and reputation to win higher office. If you are going to work on an electoral strategy for change. Otherwise, work on direct action, cast your vote according to your conscience, and let the election take care of itself knowing that the more important task is to change the political culture that limits the choices of issues and candidates in elections.
It is doable. If enough people start focusing on what is important and not get distracted by the shiny objects that our political system tosses out to protect its survival.
Capitalism requires perpetual growth. As this is the essence of capitalism, it is inherently unsustainable. All the regulation in the world only slows this consumptive, destructive process down; it does not fundamentally alter it. As regulation can slow the destructive process of capitalism, greed and concentrations of power can accelerate it. Part of what Bennett was explaining was the relative impact of both the inherent dynamics of capitalism and as well as the effects of human behavior, which is not an issue of either/or. Or, if everyone participating within a capitalist system were to behave benevolently, the system would still burn itself out.
Well said.
Unregulated markets destroy themselves through predatory behavior. Regulated markets, such as securities, destroy themselves through predatory behavior disguised as innovation, such as naked credit default swaps.
Well said. I did vote for Obama in 2008, even though I held my nose to do it. I didn’t trust him; knew about his FISA vote; so no rose-colored glasses. I admit to being hoodwinked mostly by Tundra Trash Palin, who I just really didn’t want to be anywhere close to the White House. I think, now, that Palin was *used* very cynically & manipulatively by KKKarl Rove & his minions to coerce voters like me into casting my vote for Obama. Call me crazy, but….
I’m not naive and don’t believe most campaign promises, but IF we’re not supposed to “pay attention” to any of the campaign rhetoric, then why have campaigns? Obama campaigned as a populist deeply concerned for and about Main St. He said he’d do a lot of things that I agreed with, such as closing Gitmo, etc.
Yet the second he got into office, he appointed nasty mega-super-pro-Israel Rahm as his COS, and the fix was in.
I certainly do NOT see Obama as even the LOTE. Gimme a break. Yes, RMoney is a despicable & disgusting POS. I have no *illusions* that is RMoney “wins,” that somehow it’ll “rally” progressives or cause Congress to oppose him blah blah blah.
I simply just don’t see that RMoney will be that much different. Obama’s given the 1% their tax cuts & more. Split the difference and call it a wash.
I cast my vote for Dr. Jill Stein, yet another so-called “Third Party” vote that I made over the years.
We have to start somewhere. I do a lot of activism, too, but clearly, that’s not enough.
Citizens should vote the way they see fit. IMO, voting for Obama is not something I can do.
Also well said, and sadly I agree. Democracy, such as it ever was, is over, done, finished.
There are some commenters who have called me “juvenile,” “stupid,” “infantile,” or worse for having some sort of expectation that Obama would at least *somewhat* live up to the promises he made in his campaign rhetoric. As you indicate, Obama campaigned like he was Dennis Kuchinich. Did I expect ponies & rainbows?? Hell, no. But riddle me why I’m supposed to entirely and completely discount *everything* that Obama said & promised on the campaign trail in 2008??? And just wipe that slate clean? What’s the frickin’ point then of the campaign??? Yet I’m some kind of immature idiotic dolt for attempting to “pressure Obama from the left” as Obama, himself, SAID. But when I do that I get called a “fucking retard” by Rahm & told by Robert Gibbs to get “drug tested.”
Yet somehow Obama is a perfect being of light who is “doing the best he can,” and who is infinitely “better” than RMoney??
Spare me. I’m not the one seeing ponies and rainbows here. I’m see reality as it stand.
Obama has run this country as a California Republican – severely NeoCon & NeoLiberal in terms of foreign & fiscal policy. Somewhat slightly more “liberal” than most Republicans, which ain’t saying much now that so-called “Republicans” as so batshit that they’re preaching that women should just praise the diety when they’re being raped & hope & pray that they get pregnant from it cuz it’ll be the diety’s way of thanking them… or something.
In other words: it don’t take much to be more “progressive” than almost any “Republican” these days on social issues, so “big deal” as far as Obama is concerned.
Well good luck to us all bc it seems to me that we’re pretty royally screwed no matter what.
Obama has positioned himself exactly at the political center of American politics, which happens to be about where what you call “a California Republican” would be. IOW, he’s done what pretty much every President has done in his first term.
Fixed it for you.
The separation of strategic necessity from psychological choice arises in neglect of the bourgeois anarchy and is sympathetic to the bourgeois world view. Their psychological choice is consonant with their self-interest, but even more telling, they express neither regret nor earnestly negotiate political choices. What is called capitalist necessity is, once again, a political and economic imposition of class interest and class war.
It cannot be claimed that this has no psychological basis.
Bourgeois evasion of democratic interest is a fundamental capitalist irresponsibility. They wish not to be held to account and this analysis complies with that wish.
They must be held to account.
Comrade, this is the product of bourgeois condescension. To them, the only common denominator IS style and all bourgeois sycophants are encouraged to adopt their demeaning explanation of political misconduct.
They cultivate their bigotry of low expectations.
Obama ran a dirty primary campaign in 2008, and though he was called on it (lying about NAFTA, accusing Bill Clinton of playing the race card in South Carolina), he was permitted to promise everything he knew ‘progressives’ and young voters wanted.
It seemed in late 2007 that he was suited up to prevent a Clinton presidency, so the contest became a thriller — could the kid (of our unconscious dreams) knock off the Godmother?
He had to make those promises and to lie so he could secure more convention delegates than Hillary, and he had to repeat them until November.
So what?
Yes. I believe what you surmised and it is obvious that Comrade Bob is entertaining dreams. Understandable. Declining rate of profit occurred under the post-WWII regime. The neoliberal regime fixed that but has now produced calamity. The new fix, kleptocracy, will fail as well.
O, but we can always point to the revitalized rate of profit as capitalism enters its successively more deleterious stage.
Willing and desperate delusion.
WONDERFUL POST, absolutely wonderful! Thanks.
Fear, that’s what Obama’s selling. Makes sense, what else does he have to offer?
Ok. Fine. I don’t totally disagree with you. My “grievance” (if you can call it that, even) is with so-called “Democratic voters” who want to tell me that Obama’s “done the best he can under the circumstances.”
Yeah, ok, Obama LIED during his entired 2007/2008 campaign, and he’s run his Admin like a slighly more moderate “Republican.”
When I say exactly THAT to many “Democratic voters” I get shouted out of the room and told that I’m full of it. Doesn’t hurt my feelings. But let’s truck in reality here. Too many “Democratic voters” still *believe* that Obama’s a “liberal” and aaaaannnnnyyyyy second now, he’s gonna reveal his liberal chops.
Let’s get real.
Yes. Exactly.
WOW, This is tremendous. We sure won’t get a response from Obama’s minians on this comment, that’s for sure! Couldn’t be said better.
I refer the “lesser of two evil” voters to read what Margaret Kimberly wrote (see below).
Notice that Tea Party and Libertarians are never asked to vote for the lesser evil ie. Mitt Romney. In fact, Libertarians and Tea Partiers are ENCOURAGED to vote for Gary Johnson etc. if they think Romney is not extremist enough. That keeps Romney and Republicans in line. That says something.
Yet, those on the “left” are asked, by Firedoglake (which I am beginning to think is being co-opted) and others, to EQUALLY consider their option for voting for the lesser evil. What is wrong with that picture? Maybe the “left” is being manipulated NOT to keep Democrats in line and manipulated to give a mandate to those whose intent is to undermine them.
Here’s Kimberly, astoundingly well said:
http://blackagendareport.com/content/freedom-rider-obama-untouchable
“So the great savior who is supposed to be the only thing standing between us and the dreaded republican barbarians is himself a barbarian.”
Here’s Margaret Kimberly again:
Well said, I agree regarding FDL, and fear you’re observation is spot on. Rest assured, on Obama’s reelection Dem. tribalists who rationalize voting to return him to office will be screaming for him to “please don’t be taken in by the scoundrals around him”.
On this point I’ll agree with Obama: Liberals foolish enough to vote for him deserve to be laughed at, scorned and treated like the chumps they are.
All y’all peoples are forgetting one thing: LILLY LEDBETTER.
…yes…this becomes the lasting point…is the lasting action
Thanks, Bailey. This is like watching a tragedy in slow motion: Entire peoples voting with fervor to give the mandate to a president who is out to undermine them on the deepest and most far-reaching levels once he gets back into office. It is a tragedy whose ending you already know–the president is out to undermine them big time. We WILL have austerity and a deep dismantling of the social safety net, and regressive restructuring of currently progressive taxes in favor of the top income earners who are already sitting on growing piles of money. But it is beyond your power to stop…And it is only a minority fringe group that is calling out the president. (Is there a tragic play somewhere in this?) Very sad.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-k-black/obama-austerity-social-security_b_2042876.html
If we think trade pacts are bad, Obama is onto a trade pact that is EVEN WORSE, the Transpacific Trade Pact (TPP). Yet, like Bowles Simpson, this is not explained to the public. The aggressiveness and radicalness of Obama. And voters are manipulated to vote for Obama no matter what, because the other is worse no matter what. No, we should start building the third parties–if the Greens get 2 percent, they will start to get notice and start to build. We need to contribute to that.
Sure, on a host of other social etc. issues, Obama will throw you a few crumbs. But on the biggest issues that matter at the deepest levels, eg. eliminating the progressive nature of taxation (contained in Bowles Simpson) and replacing it with a regressive sales tax, dismantling the social safety net, that is where Obama is out to undermine. Even if he is the lesser evil, this is too big an evil to vote for.
Thanks for the affirmation that I am no the only person on my block that thinks like this.
However, I do want to point out that in terms of the continuing of marijuana prohibition, with its asset forfeitures, and imprisonments, Obama is WORSE than our last Republican Governor. After all, in his last moments in office, Gov Schwartzennegger teamed up with Mark Leno to put together a bill that makes it almost impossible for a person carrying a small amount of marijuana to be arrested. At least, they now can’t be arrested by cops working for the city, county or state.
But Obama appears to be highly motivated to see that people in California are arrested for growing or owning a small amount of marijuana. His DEA, DOJ, IS and local police did a nasty job of overturning the medical marijuana clinics. And alt month, his nasty boys went after an entire neighborhood in Santa Rosa, without warrants, but just using the logic that it is “harvest time” in this area of the world, and if one person was caught growing in their back yard, then everyone in that neighborhood must be guilty.
Romney has been trying to co-opt the hell out of the Tea Party and Libertarians and Virgil Goode’s base in Virginia as well. Don’t think that the Tea Party Congressmen haven’t been stumping for Romney. As for the Libertarians, Ron Paul is sitting this one out. But they have the same problem with the Republicans that progressives have with Democrats.
The Tea Party made the GOP wake up by taking out key Republicans in primaries in 2010. And by the big money like Dick Armey and Karl Rove hopping on the bandwagon with their Tea Party look-alike groups. Those same groups most definitely are trying to keep Tea Party rank-and-file behind Romney-Ryan. That is part of the reason that Ryan is on the ticket. And the emails circulating to Tea Party types is very much putting the pressure on them to vote for Romney to stop Obama. I know because my email box gets copies of them from my GOP friends.
…yes.. excellent post cd…thank you…many good and well stated comments….the Lake at it’s best
The implications of the almost secret Trans Pacific Plan are scarey beyond belief. It is the Halloween of all trade pacts. Glad to see someone bringing it into the conversation.
Most likely if not definitely, if he’s still POTUS he’ll do what he has to do whether it’s what he wants or doesn’t want. If he’s human, his conscience is partitioned like my computer’s hard drive is partitioned.
Hundreds of people with a need to know are apprised, but most of them don’t get to see draft proposals until their approved as drafts, then their circulated among all the parties to the agreement, then their debated (privately privately at first) and either approved or amended or recommended for revisions, and so on.
Other trade agreements have failed because drafts (i.e., negotiation attempts) have been leaked.
(I don’t know anything about the TPP, but it seems that the US concern about IP is paramount.)
So, they’re kept far from public view during the negotiating stage. If they proceed at the current rate, maybe every nation, state, and ‘sovereign’ entity will become partners.
What it means is that Obama is ruthless and radical (a radical neoliberal). Of course, Obama is even more radical than G.W. Bush was, eg. on offshore drilling; jailing whistleblowers etc.; Bush never dared to cut social security. No one complains about G.W. Bush anymore, because Obama has been so shocking in his extremism on a number of fronts and gone further than even G.W. Bush. This is not the lesser of two evils. This is too big an evil to vote for.
Jill Stein, of the Green Party, has been the only candidate I have heard to raise the issue of the Trans Pacific Pact.
It’s disheartening that so many Dems who spent the 8 years of “Chauncey” Bush lamenting about the stupid Republican “tribalists” who woted and cheered for a President who ALWAYS acted against their best interests. And, now these very same Dems are doing exactly the same thing – voting for a man who disdains them, a “Democrat” who’s going to cut Social Security, a “Democrat” who’s going to cut Medicare, a “Democrat” who scorns Progressives and makes promises to stupid Liberals at election time.
And FDL thinks Presidential elections are “silly”? If every Liberal votes this Tuesday to oust every Incumbant (both Parties) and for the rest votes third Party where we’re not given a positive choice, I guarantee this election will be NOT be silly – it will be the wake-up call the the Democratic Party needs to remind it, it is the Party of the People!
You’ve pivoted away from a comment you highlighted which is rich in innuendo, and ripe for psychoanalysis. Glen Ford’s more effective evil analysis doesn’t answer the question that this Machiavellian wielder of the divide and conquer axe asks.
Which magazine would you buy? Which PR cardboard cutout would you prefer to look at?
Obama “looks like” [something good]
Romney “reminds us” [ of something bad]
This is a racialized interpretation based on appearances which exasperates racial divides and obfuscates the class war.
The assumptions are that Willard, by virtue of being white and male would undo civil rights gains of not white people, and by virtue of Ob Wan’s blackness, he would reorder the structure and remove obstacles that keep racial minorities trapped or that punish them disproportionally.
Obama is cast as a brilliant black attorney rather than just brilliant, and an attorney.
What evidence is there for Obama’s brilliance as an attorney?
Did he argue any cases? Did he do any pro-bono work? Has he used his education or brilliance to further the cause of Justice or to strengthen civil rights, or has he used them to cynically undermine the constitutional rights and protections and continuing to accrue power to the Executive Branch?
With Obama, we wouldn’t reminded of our white collective historical guilt –except by Coyote– or any by democrat partisan who wants us to shut up about ObWans’s policies.
With Obama, sufficiently guilted whites (and blacks) can be proud of our token President. We can live in a post racial society, having overcome the racism of our forebears, we can ignore those structural impediments. They don’t exist anymore. They vanished with our racism. :/
Democrats have to keep all racial minorities on the Obama bus for him to win.
It’s funny that this guy came out to counter Stoller’s piece which rambles on a bit and has some typos.
That was a good comment except for this myth which turns truth on its head.
Bernie Sanders watered down the audit the fed bill, in return for money for his health care clinics in his state.
Ron Paul tells what happened here but Bernie Sanders still took credit after the fact. There was overwhelming support for the original language that he changed, which was more than a peek.
The passage in its context was Coyote’s sarcastic impression of how the corporate state, via teevee, runs our electoral process, which he refers to as the 18 inches of counter space next to the cash register at the mall. The corporate state offers the product to the consumer and presents it in the most videogenic, appealing way.
Get it?
Thank you. You said what I was trying to say, and much more concisely. (Brevity has never been one of my strong points.)
Thank you. I always find your comments–brevity or no–to be among the most valuable here, by which I mean thought-provoking and informative.
Thanks. I read it afterward. The dude still thinks that Obama couldn’t have taken on Wall street and the MIC.
No one had the whole of wall street in the most vulnerable position since FDR and Obama wasted that opportunity.
Even Volker said he should have used the wooden stake at that moment.
That leverage could have been used to starve the MIC if that was ever a goal but of course it wasn’t, expanding the war in Afganistan was in Obama’s platform.
Peter Coyote writes like a pleasant and well meaning person, but he bases his arguments contra the historical facts.
Coyote should also question the common wisdom why crumbs are so acceptable to him and why he wants everyone to eat from that dish.
Stoller nailed the progressive case against Obama using the facts, which are undeniable. Coyote argues not by fundamentally disagreeing with Stoller’s argument, but by attacking Stoller personally, and by dragging out the same discredited talking points Obama supporters have been using for years. There is no legitimate reason to think that handing Obama another four years to continue the policies of Reagan-Bush-Clinton-Bush-McCain-Romney will make any positive change or lay the groundwork for it. Only by voting for candidates like Jill Stein and Stewart Alexander will we make the political impact that forces politicians to do as we want them to.
Peter Coyote has responded in person to my post:
http://www.voicesonthesquare.com/comment/reply/650/9061