It has been so long since Americans have seen an actual political debate that they may have gotten pretty excited, understandibly, about what they saw yesterday. MSNBC sure was. When Obama visited the GOP house caucus in Baltimore, we viewed something called a debate, or as close to it as we can manage these days.
Refreshing.
It was a relatively honest back-and-forth between the president and his opponents. The GOP members asked prepared questions that were long, laden with talking-points, and loaded with pitfalls. The president showed nimble footwork and answered most issues frankly and without pretense. He looked good doing so. So good, in fact, that the GOP may have been taken aback some, while the likes of Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow were positively gushing as they fawned over each and every Obama exchange in detail. Chris Mathews had tingles running up both legs. Their collective two-hour special last night was so soaked in moist and teary Obama-love that the WH political staff must have been dancing and popping corks.
Calm down, Keith, it was a debate.
Over the last decade, many Americans have looked ever more longingly at the British parlimentary system, where actual debate is not quite so impossible, and the Prime Minister and other members of parliament engage in a traditional interchange that is frank, useful, and frequently boisterous and funny. This and other features of the British system have gained in popularity here in the States ("PM Questions" regularly carried on C-SPAN as standard programming) as our own system appears to be approaching major dysfunction.
There is talk that C-SPAN would like to run more coverage of this type, and I for one would love to see it. But rather than having such events pit the two parties against each other, I’d like to see them structured as interchange between branches of government–with the president entering honest exchange not just with GOP members, but Democrats as well. Particularly with the involvement of those well to the left of the president, in his own party.
But I also think it is absolutely critical to remember that C-SPAN covers, on a daily basis, political events that could be just as worthwhile and significant as the president’s debate yesterday. There is nothing to stop Congress from having it’s own honest debates each and every day on C-SPAN. There is nothing to stop House or Senate committee hearings from being structured in a way that allows for more than prepared statements, rushed questions, and inadequate answers.
The absolutely wrong lesson to take from Obama’s performance yesterday, imo, is that we need to see more of him lined up in cage matches against House or Senate opposition, like Daniel in the Lion’s Den. While such would be great theater for MSNBC (not so much for FOX), I’d suggest the real lesson is that the American people are nearly starved to death for lack of true debate on important issues. In that respect, any event that shows our American political leadership engaged in real debate would be highly beneficial, regardless of whether that be in the Senate, House, or elsewhere, and regardless of whether the sitting president is involved or not. In fact, debate is supposed to be much more important to the first branch of American government than the second.
To be sure, Obama and the WH staff deserve high praise for his performance yesterday, and they are rightfully getting it. I personally think it’s one of the best moves they’ve made. But let’s not respond to this event with the kind of undisguised and embarrassing hero-worship that was on display last night on MSNBC. Let’s not respond by ticking off the points that one party scored, or another. Instead, let’s use that event to realize that we could be seeing such things regularly from our government, were it functioning properly. All we need to do is insist on it.



89 Comments







True, we can have debate on the floor of congress if the members are up to it. Occasionally it even happens. For the most part, though, when we watch we see the right spewing the usual lies which they are fed straight from leadership at http://republican.senate.gov/public/?CFID=31105288&CFTOKEN=57737932
Often the floor statements are word for word the same as the talking points dictated by the operatives at that office.
Generally, the Democrats speak to issues with statements prepared by their offices (full disclosure; I have been one of the writers of such statements), though occasionally when the issue is one the individual member is deeply involved in, that member has items that are deeply meaningful to pass on.
Debate demands knowledgeability on an issue, something the congresspeople seldom have the time to develop.
That President O has learned deeply and well, and is able to argue for his legislative agenda, is impressive in the extreme.
I agree that it was impressive. But congress members are knowledgeable about certain bills or amendments and how they effect law. High-quality debate is not impossible, far from it. In both House and Senate–the “greatest deliberative body in the world.”
Not impossible, but would require in-depth knowledge on more than one part, and what usually occurs is not an interchange but non-interactive reading of statements.
Right, which is my point–the reason the MSNBC hosts were so orgasmic in their bliss last night was that they actually saw an interchange, of sorts. I’d argue that there are many in both the house and senate who are up to such exchanges–they simply no longer do so. And this lack of debate really harms the country–the leadup to Iraq war being a prime example.
I take your point that it would be highly difficult to change things, but it would be greatly to congress’ benefit if they did just that. Their approval ratings are to a large degree related, I think, to their dysfunctionality.
As you knowpow wow, has also chimed in with very similar thoughts, pointing out especially that the current dysfunctionality is in effect Congress refusing to fulfill its role as a deliberative body. It is encouraging that you feel that there might be folks in Congress who are up that challenge of getting back to proper functioning. I hope you are right.
i really want to hope you are right, but see no evidence to give hope. any ideas on who are the reps and senators you think are up to such debates? i remember that it was a dem – now vp biden – who was most responsible for preventing the kind of debate (in the sccfr, where hearings and debate first belonged) the country imo needed in the run up to the iraq war vote.
I think most members are capable of debate. Some are more able than others, as with anything else. But the reason that debates are no longer particularly meaningful or significant is not because individual members aren’t up to it, imo, but rather that the system no longer calls for debate. Floor debate has become more public relations for the CSPAN cameras, than a meaningful give and take on substantive issues.
A big part of the issue (as often is the case) is the media has little interest in covering much more than sound bites which are snatches of talking points. There are many members of Congress (usually the hardest working ones) who are not blind ideologues, but find themselves held hostage by their leadership and the most extreme elements of their constituency.
While Obama did a masterful job yesterday, he must put recalcitrant Dems on notice as well, and follow through beyond just calling out those impeding his agenda; he must make them pay a political price. His performance yesterday proves he’s capable enough to do this; he has yet to show he has the stomach for it.
i’ve heard way too many lies from dems on the floor of the house and the senate. it would be nice to have one party telling the truth, but my experience, from watching and listening to hundreds, maybe thousands, of hours of cspan is that we don’t.
An excellent analysis, but was it all just cover for the news that the OPR report has been downgraded so that Yoo and Bybee now don’t face disbarment? I’m such a cynic these days…
Wow, has the Seminal become the official repository of Greenwald regulars?
Nice piece, Casual Observer – I agree that we need more public political engagements, and that Olbermann’s praise was embarrassing and misplaced. However, I think that treating it as a sport, where people consider a certain side to have “won” a given exchange, is an acceptable and natural thing in politics.
Politics as battle or competition. I invite that. I think it’s an important feature of any healthy democratic system. The will to “win” an exchange of ideas or wits is a prime motivator to come to such exchanges well-prepared and ready for combat.
Olbermann may have been embarrassingly effusive in his assessment – he often is – but I don’t think this should discredit the view that debates such as this can legitimately be viewed as competitions. In fact, in the current climate, it seems that the party that comes to these events with the philosophy that they are simply open exchanges of ideas towards greater understandings is the party that gets eaten for lunch.
Anyway, nice to see all my Greenwald peeps here. I have a new post, crossed from Inside-Out the Beltway.
Don’t get your hopes up people. The problem with real debates is that they are spontaneous. And spontaneity is dangerous stuff. It is actually a preconditon of rationality. And rationality often gets to the truth. And, well, we Americans aren’t really into truth much. We prefer huge fucking lies. The bigger the better. I’ll lay anybody here 5-1 the Republicans won’t make that mistake again of inviting the President. Their corporate masters will tell them to cut that shit out immediately. 5-1! Any takers?
Pow wow’s stuff has been great on this–especially his latest diary.
I don’t think there can be any question that some, probably many individuals in the House are up to the task of true debate. What is lacking, perhaps, is the appropriate format, as much as anything. Debate, in general, has been bypassed. It is no longer where business gets done. Much of the heavy lifting has always been done off the floor, of course, but there remains no substitute, in a constitutional republic, for debate.
Yeah, this was an unprecedented truly impressive debate in which he debunked all the Conservative talking points…but let’s pronounce it meaningless so we make sure we never stray an inch from cynicism.
mikesong,
Not sure what you’re referring to here, but it doesn’t seem to be about what I wrote.
I suspect he was responding to my comment at #3. As a cynic, I just don’t see yesterday’s two main political events as mere coincidence.
Excellent diary, C.O.
I just kept asking myself yesterday… imagine what happens if the GOP and Obama publicly agreed to work together (in O’s bipartisan dream world) where the GOP “middle” is? Which we saw with 70 senators voting for Bernake this week.
Obama is begging for cover to do all the wrong things. I can only pray the GOP remains the party of No for the time being…. until O is replaced or wakes the hell up.
i agree. would just add…. alternatively until the dems in congress wake up.
I think it has gone far beyond the appearance of “approaching major dysfunction” but has actually arrived at major dysfunction.
We’ve arrived at dysfunction junction?
IMNSVHO, yes. Or maybe Malfunction Junction. And not the one in Tampa either.
It sure was different from the repugs leader Sarah Failin who went tio a debate and ignored all questions asked of her and responded by asking herself a question and then answering it. Why wasn’t she at the gathering? Where the hell was that firebrand of intelligence Michelle Bachmann asking Obama tough questions? Finally where was the thier drug addicted leader Rushbo. I bet it’s a conspiracy! lol Palin/Bachmann for Jebus 2012!
‘I can see Czar’s from my front porch!’. – Sarah Palin
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Casual Observer:
Great post Citizen, the smack-down Obama put on the corporate Republicans was all about hittin’ ‘em over the head with the fact that if they don’t triangulate with him in marginalizing the Democratic Party out of it’s majorities, then the Teaparty folks will force ‘im to find votes and support from his progressive base. Isn’t it pathetic that the minority opposition can get a public conversation with the leader of the Democratic Party but the Democratic elected leadership can’t??!!!
We are at a tipping point in our politics here and the old 20th century Clintonian triangle won’t work in today’s new century. There is a new geometry workin in politics today thanks to the new Democratic coalition Howard Dean built for Obama and Obama has been very busy tryin’ to dismantle it every since he was sworn in…between the Teaparty lunatics on the right and the progressive coalition of labor, youth, minorities and old “liberals Obama’s corporate bosses need him to convince the old line fascist Republicans to support ‘im or the jig is up for the corporate oligarchy and it’s control of both parties.
Hope we hear from you more oftem Citizen Casual Observer but in the meantime…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITIOON, THERE IS NO COMPROMISING WITH FASCISTS!!
As a Casual Observer of this site.
—
We are at a tipping point in our politics here and the old 20th century Clintonian triangle won’t work in today’s new century. There is a new geometry workin in politics today thanks to the new Democratic coalition Howard Dean built for Obama and Obama has been very busy tryin’ to dismantle it every since he was sworn in…between the Teaparty lunatics on the right and the progressive coalition of labor, youth, minorities and old “liberals Obama’s corporate bosses need him to convince the old line fascist Republicans to support ‘im or the jig is up for the corporate oligarchy and it’s control of both parties.
Hope we hear from you more oftem Citizen Casual Observer but in the meantime…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITIOON, THERE IS NO COMPROMISING WITH FASCISTS!!
—-
I had to check the website to make sure I wasn’t on some teabagger site.
Nah, Norske is awesome. I get more chuckles from Mr. Flamethrower than anybody else on the web. He should do a calender or something with daily quips to help us cynics get through the day.
It was more a bunch of GOPers lying and Obama pointing out the facts in an open forum where people could google the facts.
It was Us and the GOPers both watching an event with interest and numbers the GOP won’t do this again.
However I want Obama to debate Us.
Buzz words and Talking Points only work if you control the camera the mike and the other guys lines.
GOP talking points are without exception based on false premises, so it was relatively simple for Obama to swat them down.
Criticism from the left is more often based on reality and not so easily deflected, so we are unlikely to witness a comparable exchange featuring questions from progressives. Instead he will continue to ignore, or when convenient, demonize those at the liberal end of the political spectrum.
I agree we’d have a very different event if he had to respond to the left, or even the center of his own party. I’d love to see Dorgan question him about why we can’t reimport drugs, for example.
Serious question; why is reimporting drugs even necessary? We make the shit, sell it to them and then have to buy it from them and it’s cheaper than buying the same shit here that we just sent there. Is it free shipping and delivery month? WTF?
I’ve asked the exact question myself. But the Dorgan amendment was what it was, and to my knowlege would have improved prices and saved money. I believe Jane Hamsher would claim it was unacceptable to the WH because of the Pharma deal, cut in secret early in the game by the Obama WH.
It is an example of the kinds of questions likely to come out of Obama’s own party, if he were to do this kind of debate with a broader cross-section of the Congress.
I would like to see this debate among other members of Congress, too. And yes, wading through the goo from KO and RM and CM (I forgot he was black!) was tedious, but I enjoyed it thoroughly.
Particularly the part where Obama had to explain to this (I thought)petulant crowd that “compromise” and “democracy” do not mean that the GOP gets 80% of what they want all the time. I mean, really, sometimes I think this group really believes that they just SHOULD get what they want, by dint of their fabulousness. Or something.
This is one of the things that makes them so effective, unfortunately. That, and the weakness of Dems, and the fact that the media is largely useless. Aside from that, though, we’re in great shape!
The Dems are getting all they wanted of what they wanted—money
they are in the drivers’ seat with the majority
wake up…smell the coffee
take off the rose-coloured glasses..
the Dems steal just like the Reps..
just a different smokescreen
Obaba does what Timmy and Larry tell him to do, and they take instructions from Lloyd and the boys in NY…
Helloo!!!!
We can’t persuade pharma to charge realistic prices in this country because they don’t have to. They have also successfully blocked any effort to support or encourage generics through patent demands.
And most of all, It is one of those memes like “cut taxes on the rich will increase taxes paid.” “Price controls don’t work.” No politician would dare suggest drug price controls or even as we know negotiating prices for bulk volumes as in Medicare.
Killjoy:( heh we can always trick him into debating us I’m sure Rahm is telling Obama to Sister Souljah us that can be or opportunity to be heard.
I have been nonplussed by the fact that FDL has had less to say about Obama In The Lion’s Den than Faux News….
I’m as critical of Obama as Jane and Digby have been, but gee whiz folks, attack Rachael for “hero worship” and down play this like it was “simply a debate?”
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!
Listen, what Rachael said during their “special” was (paraphrasing) “now that first question could have been the beginning of a really boring reading of bumper stickers that we’re used to these days, but after hearing the response it was “whoa! break out the popcorn!”" That’s not hero worship, that’s “hey, finally some really great political theater!”
If anything this was all about Obama ripping them a new one JUST LIKE Rachael did the day before the SOTU to that WH-spokes-kiddie on the stupidity of a budget freeze.
This is indeed debate, but you know what? WE DON’T GET DEBATE ANYMORE, and it’s a shocking surprise when it happens! MORE! This is exactly what we complain about about the media: no real analysis or debate, just repeating the talking points. FINALLY we get more…
But don’t give Obama any credit for it because he’s an evil facist-conservative-enabler! Gee, name calling is SOOOOOO useful! Not at ALL like what the tea-baggers do right?
Talk is cheap. I will evaluate the president by his actions and to date the grade I give his administration is an F.
If I were a corporate lobbyist I would undoubtedly grade him much higher.
Just for comparison – who do you give an A? For me, Sotomayor pushes him well past a C. Global Gag rule ending – DADT repeal (in process) – end of hostilities in Iraq, health care reform (at least the conversation), lilly ledbetter, Repub smack down, global love for the man, Muslim outreach – even as we are still in too many Muslim nations, release of torture memos – though I ramble – who gets an A from you?
did I mention a stim package that has kept cops on the streets, teachers teaching and many people working – as well as saving state budgets?
just saying…
an F?
I do give Obama credit:
It was good theatre. The GOP typically runs circles around Dems when it comes to media manipulation and it’s nice to see some pushback. The fact that Fox News (I am told) pulled the plug on coverage twenty minutes before it ended says something.
However, while it might have slowed the bleeding slightly on the political front, it did not move us one iota closer to the types of reform candidate Obama claimed to support.
Citizen Buffy:
I think you’re half right. The criticism of Rachel and Keith and MSNBC is not only misplaced but misses the real point of the amazing 2-hour analysis they did. Think about it, Maddow and Olbermann had 3 hours to put a two hour special together with coordinated edits and compact analysis. That this program was accomplished at all was an amazing example of what creative and intelligent broadcasters can do with timely political programming. We should applaud MSNBC for last night’s broadcast AND it’s re-broadcast which cut into the regular Friday schedule.
Giving Obama credit for smackin’ the fascists down on national television seems to me to be a no brainer and for FDL to ignor the possibilities of usin’ this to energize the new Democratic coalition makes me wonder where the FDL movers and shakers really want to go in their challenge of corporatist politics. If the official FDL line is to play footsie with the likes of Grayson and the lunatic Ron Paulistes, then it seem to me that we should also be supporting Obama when he tells the political truth on national TV.
ObamaRahma is desparately tryin to put together a replay of 1994 but the fascist Republicans won’t play…so where is Obama gunna go for support if he wants to remain in office? I thought that the entire effort of us progressives out here was to force Obama to acknowlege that there is only one path to a democratic future and it’s NOT with the Teaparty or with the established corporate fascists.
May? Sorry they WERE taken aback every GOPer who asked Obama a question knew that if they scored a point on Obama they would become the New GOP it Girl and maybe a shot at the Presidency .
If thats the younger GOPer in the House’s A game with the Presidency on the line the GOP needs a new line up.
Also lets see Scientists debate Politicians on Global Warming, Nuclear Power, Green Energy and Economists do the same with the economy.
I’m sick of elected Morons lying.
Did anyone in the room mention single-payer?
Nah, everyone in the room accepts all forms of payment.
Not that I read.
I totally agree with everything KO and Rachel said. Keep up the fire on theses scumbags!
Didn’t read or see it but yeah Obama does good Cool I want him to bash some more GOP lies KO and Rachel got every right to cheer.
Citizen Raven:
“Keep up the fire on scumbags.”
Yessir Brother Raven but let’s make sure that we understand that if Obama can get the fascist Republicans to compromise with ‘im, he will drop a load on US faster’n an F-14 over a rice paddy.
When I first viewed this exchange I wondered if perhaps I was witnessing the sprouting of tiny testicles. Then it dawned on me that cameras were present. Obama performs best when in front of cameras. It’s what goes on in the secret White House meetings that best shows where his loyalties lie. I will believe again only when his actions back up his words.
Worth saying again.
Personally I found the whole thing adolescent and disgusting. Reminded me of something the teacher makes 8th graders do when there has been a fight at the basketball game.
And, My Lord, the scripted talking points speeches were embarrassing even for Republicans.
Is that what these jerks think running the country is about? Obama by “debating” the GOPers on their own level has placed himself just there.
I don’t share the admiration for his performance. Found him arrogant childish and grouchy. If I were a GOP I would have been insulted.
Grow Up!
We all saw what Obama did and that why we elected him to be President. However,when is he going to put that intelligence to work for betterment of us all. In other words did we expect anything less than his best of course not. At the same time I am still skeptical of OBAMA and want us all to take a breather and understand the REP are not going to change there tactics when it comes to OBAMA period. The questions to be asked is Obama going to continue to smacked them down or what?
If you want to see just how difficult it is for the White House to respond to real questions from the left, just see how Robert Gibbs handled Ed Schultz’s mildly critical questions. Filibustering, talking points, and missing the point — all the Republican messaging tricks we’ve gotten used to.
Yep, the admin would much rather marginalize the left. Fielding reality-based questions causes them to break out in a rash.
My personal favorite part of the debate was when one of the idiots read the old ‘we had a proposal that would insure 30 million people at no cost’, Obama briefly smirked and you could hear groans and giggles from the repug audience… like…. hey stupid…. that lie just ain’t gonna fly and you are on the tv thing here stoopid, please STFU!
Thank you.
Nicely done stasy, you retained a shred of credibility right up to the middle of your third sentence. Keep trying.
Here’s a tip, suggesting that someone is simultaneously Progressive, Stalinistic, and a Hitler imitator tends to undermine most arguments.
No need for that – stasy is already a performance artist.
I’ll say.
Book Salon up at the Mothership with Sean Carroll’s From Eternity to Here: The Quest for the Ultimate Theory of Time hosted by Chad Orzel
Obama’s “debate” with the House Repub’s turned my stomach. I could not seem to stop seeing red every time he pleaded with them to give him a chance because his policies are so Republican-like and the only reason they oppose him is for partisan gain. The first truth I have heard Obama speak in . . . seems like years. Yes, he’s everybody’s President except for the people that voted for him and supported him with donations and campaign work. Post-partisan politics might do some good sometime, but right now we need a lot of reform, not somebody tinkering with the system to make it marginally more palatable while the forces of greed tighten their vice on the middle class.
We elected Obama to change Washington, not debate.
He turned out to be a jerk-best case-
…More likely the ultimate SHOE-SHINE BOY for crony capitalists
Now he’s reverting to his past as a schoolboy as a diversionary tactic
Don’t agree with you that Obama shouldn’t debate. Quite the opposite, if he had gotten out in the midst of the fight on HCR, things might have been different. Even he acknowledges that now.
Obama will get what he wanted all along—
a big payoff to ins cos and big pharma…
boy are you naive..
he can debate all he wants..
When it comes to bringing promised change to Washington, Obama’s a masterdebater…just don’t say it too fast.
Above all we need proportional representation.
Hey if I sound bitter, angry and highly motivated, I am
Obama punked me, my kids, my friends out of a lot of money and time..
and what was left of my faith in the U.S. political system
So we can walk away or get even…
we’re getting even, because we live here, and it’s our country,too–
not just Obama’s and the rich bankers’ and corporate cronies’ that he fronts for.
“Hey if I sound bitter, angry and highly motivated, I am
Obama punked me, my kids, my friends out of a lot of money and time..and what was left of my faith in the U.S. political system”
Amen. You’re not alone, brother.
While MSNBC may have been effusive in it’s championing Obama’s performance, I think they did so because the public NEVER gets to see the President acutally answering their pathetic talking points. What they had to say did not hold up to scrutiny and it was important for the American people to have the opportunity to see that. Sadly, because he did a good job, it is doubtful the GOP will give him another opportunity.
I’m sorry, but this site is losing it’s sense of reality. We live in a political clusterf*ck and the president took it to an unprecedented level, at least as regards the modern TV era, and it may pay dividends moving forward, perhaps even on issues dear to me and, I thought, this site, like the Public Option. Who knows what kind of moves could be made using the political windfall of this excellent smackdown. But no, there is nary a peep on FDL, except, of course, to ridicule anyone who can value this unique political coup. “It’s a debate…they happen all the time!”
Really? please do, provide the link.
Everyday is another opportunity to position your inventory of resources to get what you want. Cataloging enemies, like a president who “sold you out” leaves you occupied spinning what happens to fit your narrative.
Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow were “fawning”? Oh, heavens. what a crime. You’re trying so hard to be holy that you can’t even appreciate a win that will, whether you acknowledge it or not, aid your cause. Mind you, I advocate killing this bill unless they sidecar it, and bringing a real bill to cloture, but It was right about the time of that fight that y’all got religion and put Obama up on your dartboard.
It was better when you had no response to the Baltimore debate, Hamsher et. al.
this diary is just stupid.
First, you made this quote up. Second, you obviously haven’t read what this post says.
I’m all for argument. But you need to pick out something I actually said, and argue with that.
I actually agree with all you say. My complaint is that the material was first grade bathroom level porno.
And what in gods name does that mean??? I seriously don’t get it.
Sorry about that.
I put myself within the metaphor of Obama and the GOPers putting on a big media show which is what I thought how Jack was describing it.
I tried to get cutsey with it by saying I agree it was a big media show but my complaint was that the scripted dialogue for the show was silly materiial. The silliest thing I could think of to use as an analogy was 5yr olds’ “dirty talk.” you have to have been around a lot of 5 year olds to get it.
IOW Obama and the Pubbies reminded me of 5yr olds farting and belching and saying “poot” to each other.
I couldn’t agree more. I loved it and see it as essential infrastructure to making great things happen. He is (I think and hope) laying a really important foundation here, and that’s reflective of his legal expertise and background. I think if we can possibly keep an open mind about his agenda we will be pleasantly gratified in the near future. He really has to put some of the republican myths to rest, and to get that message out, or they’ll tear apart the democratic agenda. Can’t these people see a larger strategy at work here? Yes, we haven’t got all we want out of this administration but if we destroy it we’ll have fundamentalist authoritarian right wing followers to contend with the rest of my life. Please, people, don’t do that to me. Thanks.
We have a right-wing authoritarian government in place:
torture is ok
guantanamo is open for business
targeted extra-judicial assassinations of Americans is ok
More and bigger wars and defense spending
throw the poor out in the street
cut school lunch programs
ersatz “health care”=payoff to big insurance and big Pharma
Endless bailouts to Wall Street fat-cats..no regulatory reform
Open your eyes!
This is a really great diary for REDSTATE or Breibart’s site.
What a piece of garbage!
Technically, this was not a debate. Standard debate procedures were not in place allowing timed statements followed by timed rebuttals.
This was a Q&A session after a speech – big difference.
That’s true. The term is being used generically here, rather than technically.
Trying to discredit the only other relevant political party seems like such an obvious strategy. I just can’t understand why the democrats let the republicans get away with it again and again when it’s the republicans that hold views easily proven as false, so it really should be the other way around. Why bother with bipartisanship when it’s not even like the republicans poll well. It’s the opposite rather, people agree with the democrats idea-wise, but because they’re not willing to stand behind their believes there’s not enough motivation to vote.
Honestly, the only way I can believe this – if it’s not just incompetence – is if deep down a lot of democrats don’t really believe in what they’re saying. They’re in favor of a public option as long as they don’t have to actually vote for it when their vote would help bring achieve it. They’re against the wars, but don’t ask them to vote no for any of the bills increasing defense funding.
They’re too comfortable with their life, their future lobbyist-gig, all the attention, the riches.. and there’s no accountability whatsoever, no need to perform and do what they were voted in for because incumbents have such a big advantage and there’s always other jobs for you if you’ve been good to the corporations.
I do fear that’s just all there is to it. Obama can debate republican falsehoods to get some momentum and positive press, but he’ll be unwilling to address rational opposition because then he’ll have to admit something I doubt he wants to admit to himself. And I’m sure there will be more search for bipartisanship even after Obama quite clearly showed the GOP has no reasonable views, because he doesn’t want to face all it will unleash. Populist solutions are needed by now, but he won’t be able to get away with it without fighting and really choosing a side.
good points laiki–Scarecrow has a great post up discussing this.
Let’s see…Our favorite “liberal” blog site gives us 24 hours of silence on yesterday’s Obama smackdown of the GOP. After this pause, we’re getting a post that says let Obama debate “Democrats too”????…Hey! Why not just put out another joint statement response with Grover Norquist!? The “faith” in Obama from the FDL crowd encompasses a whole one year. Beyond that, we’re free to openly wallow in our bitterness? While we’re in this unproductive stage, we’re free to take on friends and foes alike. Watch out Olbermann, bitter men and women are at work!
I, for one, would like to see Obama with Democratic caucus.
However, I fear too many representatives would keep their mouths shut and wouldn’t ask important questions as Rahm stares at them. Of course, I could be all wrong, and they’d finally feel free to speak up since their statements couldn’t be mischaracterized.
I would like to see a Socratic dialogue concerning Medicare for All, or Single Payer or even Public Option. I know my neighbors would like to hear why an executive order can’t end DADT, just as Truman did. My congressman is asked about big banks, and that would be interesting.
the above article is a prime example of why progressives cant make headway against the wingnuts. whether its due to latent racism. or just a dweebs desire to seem cool by criticizing everything some so called progressives always do more criticizing of the good people than of the other side. There was nothing wrong with Olbermans and maddow’s presentation yesterday.
Reading your article I thought I had logged into a rightwing blog by mistake. Are you really so content with the rightwing that you have nothing better to do than criticize our president and those who support him? Buddy do yourself a favor and keep such things to your wine and brie set. there are millions of us who support the president but manage to live in the real world and dont mind hearing a cheer when our guy scores on the other side. get a grip
Does Obama’s gratification of narcissistic impulses help the malnourished children or those who are evicted by greedy banks?
or do anything to stem the accelerating buildup of the military and private militias
or stop torture and targeted assassinations?
or reform the financial system?
or stop the looting?
The Republicans won the debate by establishing Obama’s impotence for all to see.
particularity when that impotence is in your head…
There is nothing I can do in response to your comment, because you actually never refer to anything I’ve written in my post.
I suspect the most uplifting aspect about it all was that we’ve been forced to listen to GOP lies/distortions/and fear mongering for 12 months straight about health care, about the stimulus plan, about Communist conspiracy plots, etc., and FINALLY Obama actually addressed each of those talking points head on, and very articulately and thoroughly ripped them apart, to show that they had absolutely no merit, but were fear mongering, plain and simple.
After having felt betrayed by Obama for selling us out over much of the last year, I admittedly was thrilled to see such an event.
Chris Matthews asked Congressman Pence — the Republican who helped to put it together — if he would like to see more of this where the President was forced to field tough questions from the opposition like the Prime Minister of Britain does routinely, and Pence said “No, I like the way it’s done here in America, I would not like to see more of it.”
Well, I suspect that’s because he realizes that the GOP talking points have no substance, and when you have a studious, articulate President like Obama, the last thing you want is to give him an opportunity to rebut all those distortions and pick them apart — expose them for what they are.
Could you even imagine George W. Bush having faced off the opposition, fielding any question they cared to ask, while the cameras were rolling? He couldn’t have done it. He rarely took questions from the press. He basically had infomercials where questioners where handpicked and their questions were written in advance, and only Republican card-holders could attend.
Unfortunately we treat our Presidents like a Monarchy. We put them on a pedestal and build a fortress around them so they don’t have to field questions they don’t want to answer, or can’t answer. Not only are they not held to account of the law, they aren’t even held accountable to the electorate by having to defend and articulate their policies in the public square (if they choose not to).
This kind of arrangement enables dumb, incurious, ideologues like Bush, Palin, etc. to actually consider running for the highest office in the land. They are often little more than a facial figurehead, while the actual business gets conducted by their appointees and lobbyists.
For that reason alone this should be a weekly event. It would force the President — the guy who supposed to set the policy agenda for the country — to articulate his positions, and defend them amongst the toughest of his critics.
However, I agree with Casual Observer that the Left should be allowed to take him to task in the public square as well. Their questions would be a LOT harder for the President to answer, since the Left hasn’t built a platform of lies and distortions like the Right. I suspect Obama would NEVER allow this kind of televised Q&A with his own party.