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As noted here earlier today, the Obama administration isn’t exactly making it clear that they intend to hold lawbreakers responsible for specific instances of torture revealed by the recently released CIA Inspector General report. And why should they when media blowhards like Joe Scarborough signal that the only price Obama will pay is if he punishes torturers?
On today’s Morning Joe, Scarborough was in full Jack Bauer tough guy mode. Given that Scarborough has defended torture in the past, I guess it shouldn’t be a surprise. Still, my sense of outrage isn’t so squelched that I didn’t marvel in disgust when I heard Scarborough this morning.
Tough guy Joe told his viewers that, if "grownups" were running things, the only question they’d ask about torture is: does it work? That’s a breathtaking approach. I can’t say whether Scarborough thought this through, but consider what that means. If someone proposes burning a detainee’s family member alive, impaling a detainee’s family member on a stake, throwing a detainee’s family member in a shark tank, executing residents of a detainee’s hometown one by one, the only question Scarborough would ask is: does it work?
I was in New York City on September 11 and I was scared as hell. I was looking over my shoulder for a long time (due, in part, to phony terror reports the Bush admin put out–thanks for that!). But I don’t understand how we can call ourselves human beings if we accept Scarborough’s standard. He subordinates everything to one purpose, preventing terror attacks, without even offering an explanation of how we know if torture "works" (an important question to ask before we start going all Jack Bauer).
For Scarborough, there is no law, there is no morality–other than the one moral imperative: prevent terrorism, at any cost (again, I don’t know how we can ever guarantee that any horrific method of torture will even accomplish this). That may sound good and, sadly, there may be people who are afraid and find Scarborough’s approach comforting. The question I have is: how do we continue to be human beings if we are prepared to impale young chidren, burn human beings alive, or do any of a thousand other horrific things I don’t even want to imagine–as long as it "works"?
16 Comments
Of course the fact that it DOESN’T work isn’t discussed. There is LITERALLY (and I mean that literally) no argument for torture, either on moral or practical grounds. Good, well-trained investigators do a far better job. This isn’t about torture, but revenge, and isn’t that supposed to be the province of their god?
right you are JB.
Thanks Chris,
I saw Scarborough earlier in the morning on torture, spouting off statistics that most Americans are OK with sleep deprivation – etc.
Well most Americans aren’t aware that sleep deprivation, even for a short time, leads to insanity. And even death. It is not an inconvenience or a discomfort. It’s TORTURE.
Not unlike Rumsfeld claiming that he stands at his desk all day so what’s the big deal about forcing prisioners to stand for hours upon hours upon hours. Yet Rumsfeld was free to “move about the cabin” and could sit whenever he wanted.
It’s so distressing that torture and abuse is somehow justified because “3000 people died on September 11th” therefore anything goes. Peterr is so right. His post, “Holder Overturns Justice Jackson and Nuremberg” is a must read for us all. And for our soul as a nation.
Seriously. Most people are ok with a lot of things they’ve never experienced themselves.
thanks Elliott. Scarborough once “joked” that he and Mika B. were being tortured because they were sleep deprived. Of course, there are reports that some detainees died in custody. Not something Scarborough or anyone else should be joking about. This, as well as what is happening at the town halls, makes me think of the Philip Roth book, the Plot Against America.
I’m convinced that people like Scarborough just say what they say to be polemical and controversial – to emphasize his difference from Obama and the status quo. It’s not even like Rush, Beck and O’Reilly, who say what they say to cater to a hardcore base. Lou Dobbs is probably closer to Scarborough in this regard – in that he actually does stand for nothing at all.
you certainly may be right. I’ve thought that too. of course, I’m not a mindreader and I have to take Scarborough at his word (for what it’s worth, I think he really believes what he says about torture). Whether he’s playing a character or not, it is outrageous to be a champion of torture
Here’s a little background on Morning Blow Scarborough and his dead aid:
http://archive.democrats.com/p…..carborough
#8 hacworth –
Amazing, isn’t it? how the MSM will chase after any bone thrown them by the reichwing media . . . and completely ignore reality/facts.
Jo(k)e Scarborough should be in prison, or swinging from a rope. Instead, he’s treated like a god! and fawned over by Mika (who makes me want to puke!) and various Dems/Progressives who appear on his show.
This creep should be boycotted by anyone with a conscience.
even if it’s a joke, I vehemently disagree. No lynching reference is appropriate even in jest. It disgusts me when the other side does this (see e.g. the town hall lunacy), it disgusts me if we do this. No one deserves to be lynched. I also don’t see any reason to jail Scarborough–he is certainly abdicating his responsibility as a member of the media, but that is not criminal behavior. Boycotting or pointing out his off base comments is far more appropriate.
Everytime the reichwingers say that Americans should abandon the Constitution to protect their rights, it should be pointed out that this is the very same argument that the Nazis used to sway public opinion in post-WWI Germany and come to power.
The German people needed to be “protected” from “enemies” of the Fatherland, who wanted to seize Germany and rape its natural resources, (Aryan)people, etc, etc., and Hitler and his goons were the ONLY ones who could be entrusted with that mission.
Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
And, whenever one of the reichwing trolls uses that argument to defend Cheney et al, I point out that it’s the same rationale the Nazis used — and that’s usually the end of discussion . . .
They know exactly what they’re doing — they just hope no one finds out before they execute their coup d’etat (a.k.a. the “Revolution!”).
well…I really don’t like Nazi comparisons. Let’s not stoop to the level of the idiots at town hall events and in the Republican party who are calling Obama a Nazi. How about if we simply say that Scarborough is abandoning the rule of law–that ought to be serious enough
Hi Chris, I don’t accept the current CW that no one should bring the Nazi thing to a conversation, and I think formidable’s comment is well-taken.
I know the right is distorting the “Nazi” image and trying to render it meaningless; but that’s because they often act like Nazis, don’t want others pointing that out, and believe Karl Rove’s dictum about going on the offense when you’re guilty of something. The right is using totalitarian tactics in the health care reform debate. They used them during the election of 2000, and have used them many time since in relation to their favorite hot button issues.
In the Bush Administration, many elements of Fascism were adopted and used by the Government. The Administration’s power was sapped by its failures which were too big to overcome with their fact-free propaganda. But if they had had a third term in power . . .
I understand that people have different views on this. To me, one of the clearest and easiest ways to see how unhinged the right wing is these days is by noting how casually they use terms like Nazi and Hitler. For me, these terms are sui generis–there was one Nazi party, one Hitler, it’s not useful (to me) to attach that label to others. Part of the reason I feel this way is because the term gets thrown around so much, as I noted, and I think that dilutes its meaning. Unless you’re rounding up millions of Jews and others for extermination because of who they are while simultaneously trying to take over the world, you’re not a Nazi or a Hitler.
To me, it’s not helpful to say the right is acting like Nazis when they lie or distort or use propaganda. It’s true that the Nazis did all that but, to me, that was not the sine qua non of being a Nazi. Again, it’s the extermination of millions/active attempt to take over the world that makes Nazis, Nazis and Hitler, Hitler.
This is not to say that what’s going on the health care “debate” isn’t dangerous. It scares the hell out of me that people are lynching Congressmen in effigy, that a Republican congressman is “joking” about this, that a man at a Grassley event talked about getting a gun and taking a mob to DC (and Grassley apparently said nothing), that mobs are substituting bullying for debate, that Republican leaders are lying with impunity, making up the most outrageous and baseless things about euthanasia and “death panels”, and that the media is largely treating this as politics as usual. I just think the focus needs to be on how wildly radical this all is without calling this Nazism.
I understand your points and don’t mean to be dismissive–this is just my view of the issue. Thanks for your comment.
It isn’t human, or civilized, or moral, to reason as that friendly totalitarian Joe Scarborough does. But it is also time to say that it is un-american. It goes against the basic values of our nation.
I don’t like the term un-American, but I strongly believe that Scarborough and others in the media like him are utterly abdicating their responsibility. They are spreading falsehoods (as I discussed when Joe “took on” health care recently) and endorsing torture. It’s very dangerous stuff, whatever you call it.