I am a white male. I grew up in a rural part of NE Ohio that was nearly all white middle class. Both my parents had college degrees and both worked in professional fields. My knowledge of and experience with those who are blue collar was limited to my aunt and uncle on my father’s side of the family and a few friends.
After my father passed away, my mother moved us down to South West Florida, which at that time was a mix of Northern transplants and Florida natives IE those born there. Nearly all of which were white and most middle to upper middle class. We mostly shared the same world views and ideals.
There were Blacks and Seminoles in the area but I only recall meeting a few Seminole kids in school and I do not remember seeing many (if any) Blacks downtown. It was – as far as I could see – a white world. At least that part of it. I had no negative experience with any other culture as I had little experience with any other culture. But this also meant that I could not easily relate what it would be like to be part of any other culture. I have no way of knowing what it is like to be of any other culture, to have their world view or attitudes.
My family went to the local Lutheran church – my father’s religion, though he himself did not practice it. This was largely symbolic as I never believed any of it and was later to learn that my parents did not either. It was completely white middle class. Both of my parents were also in Europe during WWII and brought a lot of their experience there and attitudes with them. My mother also spent a good deal of her youth over seas as well, and conveyed this to us.
This is my background. Add to this that I have had in interest in radio and and electronics which lead me at an early age to listening to international Short Wave Broadcasts and Amateur Radio. Where in my favorite thing is to be able to talk with people in other countries. As an aside most of them refer to you as “my friend” and express more passion in the conversation than I get from talking with most American Ham Radio operators.
So when I read posts from David Seaton, I can relate easily from where he is coming from. Like his latest post.
This combination of technical and commercial perfection combined with a lack of elementary common sense is what makes him the perfect metaphor for America today… with the rest of the world tagging along.
And the subject of Pam Spaulding’s front page post.
Chad Nance who is a freelance journalist in Winston-Salem and is covering the election here in NC, recorded the wife of NC Sen. Peter Brunstetter confirming that she believes that Amendment One’s destiny is not only to save marriage, it apparently also has something to do with white power preservation. (!)
Which runs along the same lines as what Alngela Merkel expressed a few years ago concerning Germany’s attempts at a multicultural society.
The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has courted growing anti-immigrant opinion in Germany by claiming the country’s attempts to create a multicultural society have “utterly failed”.
Speaking to a meeting of young members of her Christian Democratic Union party, Merkel said the idea of people from different cultural backgrounds living happily “side by side” did not work.
She said the onus was on immigrants to do more to integrate into German society.
“This [multicultural] approach has failed, utterly failed,” Merkel told the meeting in Potsdam, west of Berlin, yesterday.
Her remarks will stir a debate about immigration in a country which is home to around 4 million Muslims.
Last week, Horst Seehofer, the premier of Bavaria and a member of the Christian Social Union – part of Merkel’s ruling coalition – called for a halt to Turkish and Arabic immigration.
All speaking to a single thread – a similar view, that of the white Anglo Saxon cultural world view which is especially prominent here. A view that Chris Hedges has expressed is bound to destroy those who hold on to it. One not of American exceptionalism, but of white exceptionalism.
When the most basic elements that sustain life are reduced to a cash product, life has no intrinsic value. The extinguishing of “primitive” societies, those that were defined by animism and mysticism, those that celebrated ambiguity and mystery, those that respected the centrality of the human imagination, removed the only ideological counterweight to a self-devouring capitalist ideology. Those who held on to pre-modern beliefs, such as Native Americans, who structured themselves around a communal life and self-sacrifice rather than hoarding and wage exploitation, could not be accommodated within the ethic of capitalist exploitation, the cult of the self and the lust for imperial expansion. The prosaic was pitted against the allegorical. And as we race toward the collapse of the planet’s ecosystem we must restore this older vision of life if we are to survive.
The war on the Native Americans, like the wars waged by colonialists around the globe, was waged to eradicate not only a people but a competing ethic. The older form of human community was antithetical and hostile to capitalism, the primacy of the technological state and the demands of empire. This struggle between belief systems was not lost on Marx. “The Ethnological Notebooks of Karl Marx” is a series of observations derived from Marx’s reading of works by historians and anthropologists. He took notes about the traditions, practices, social structure, economic systems and beliefs of numerous indigenous cultures targeted for destruction. Marx noted arcane details about the formation of Native American society, but also that “lands [were] owned by the tribes in common, while tenement-houses [were] owned jointly by their occupants.” He wrote of the Aztecs, “Commune tenure of lands; Life in large households composed of a number of related families.” He went on, “… reasons for believing they practiced communism in living in the household.” Native Americans, especially the Iroquois, provided the governing model for the union of the American colonies, and also proved vital to Marx and Engel’s vision of communism.
Marx, though he placed a naive faith in the power of the state to create his workers’ utopia and discounted important social and cultural forces outside of economics, was acutely aware that something essential to human dignity and independence had been lost with the destruction of pre-modern societies. The Iroquois Council of the Gens, where Indians came together to be heard as ancient Athenians did, was, Marx noted, a “democratic assembly where every adult male and female member had a voice upon all questions brought before it.” Marx lauded the active participation of women in tribal affairs, writing, “The women [were] allowed to express their wishes and opinions through an orator of their own election. Decision given by the Council. Unanimity was a fundamental law of its action among the Iroquois.” European women on the Continent and in the colonies had no equivalent power.
This ethic that dates back to the Holy Wars and Crusades. That white Anglo Saxon protestant world views should trump all else is destroying the planet. A belief what we here and Europe to a lesser extent is keeping us culturally, socially and even scientifically back in the late 19th century at best. Getting past this arrogant, self righteous view is paramount to any chance at advancing and the trick is to do it with humility.
Here is the problem we face though. It is very, very difficult for someone to come up with ideas and/or solutions to problems for situations of which they have no personal experience. It takes someone with immense empathy and insight to do so. It’s the main reason why AA and other 12step groups have been successful where the medical and psychological fraternity has not.
It’s the reason why I can no more relate to what it is like being a poor Black or even a poor white is like in this country or anywhere else, as much as I would like to. Why Bill W. said in founding AA, “I need another Alcoholic” someone who knows what it’s like that can relate. And why economists have no more a clue as to help main street than the local barber does to fix a BMW. It’s where too many on the left fall flat.
And it’s why any and all attempts of forcing other groups and cultures into adopting our ways of thinking and our world views and repressing and treating them as some how inferior to us and vice versa is not just morally wrong, but also destructive to them and to us.
We need to learn how to accept people as they are first. To work on understanding where they are coming from. Then helping people to help themselves but only when asked. Sometimes the most difficult thing to do is to NOT stick our noses in where they are not wanted. After all we might just learn something from them in the process.




27 Comments

Given my life experiences as a white male whose ‘growing up’ years were in an environment of what used to be the ‘middle class’, it’s hard for me to see how others could have avoided exposure to racism, poverty, bigotry, and so on in living a long life. That you didn’t have the experiences that would allow to feel you had ‘walked a mile in another’s moccasins’ surprises me. Because that’s what’s really necessary to “understanding where they are coming from.”
Please don’t misunderstand; I’m not critiquing you, just expressing surprise.
Anyway…..re the Iroquois: “When Americans and Canadians of European descent began to study Iroquois customs in the 18th and 19th centuries, they learned that the people had a matrilineal system: women held property and hereditary leadership passed through their lines. They held dwellings, horses and farmed land, and a woman’s property before marriage stayed in her possession without being mixed with that of her husband. They had separate roles but real power in the nations. ”
“The French made several attempts through their missionaries to win over the Iroquois, and were so far successful that a considerable number of individuals from the different tribes, most of them Mohawk and Onondaga, withdrew from the several tribes and formed Catholic settlements at Caughnawaga, St Regis, and Oka, on the. St Lawrence. The tribes of the league repeatedly tried, but, without success, to induce them to return, and finally, in 1684, declared them to be traitors. In later wars the Catholic Iroquois took part with the French against their former brethren. ”
It’s accurate that currently the white,European derived hegemonic influence is screwing things up in a terrible way but such is the cycle of history. And racism/irrational prejudice exists even amongst those of the same skin color,e.g. Hutu/Tutsi conflict. Another example.
As towards “After all we might just learn something from them in the process.”; just reminded me of this in ‘Desiderata‘: “and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tEH_YYqEH0&feature=related
I really did not run into any “hard core” racism personally until I was in my 20s and had moved up to Cleveland to attend college.
By that time I had already formed my own opinions on it. That it was totally self centered and idiotic. (Among other things) At the time I lived there, Naples Fl. was a small burg and nearly all white. And NE Ohio was where I lived before was totally white middle class. With the exception of Amish mostly in the eastern part of the county. The school I went to had K-12 in the same building (built under WPA) when I started. And still has Jr-Sr. High there.
Being extremely well acquainted with being poor and white I could tell you all about it but in the end, most of my peers would just see your “interest” as a huge condescension. There are a whole lot of people on this very blog who continually hack out screeds blaming the state of things on apathy or ignorance and deplore the fact that more working people aren’t in the streets. The fact of the matter is, poor people spend a whole great deal of their time trying to eke out a living. MUCH more time than most of the upper middle class, though there are exceptions. Poor people work the kind of jobs in which participating in a general strike can get you summarily fired. Some people are apathetic of course but for the main part, poor people are knowledgeable and aware of current events, they just don’t have the time or the energy to do much about them, food and shelter being a higher priority. I’m fond of saying that comfortable people don’t start revolutions but it’s more complicated than that. Poor people can’t afford to take a chance of losing their jobs to participate in a May Day strike and most can’t afford to even take the day off whether their job is secure or not. I’ve tried over and over to explain this to some people who use this website as their soapbox, (and who I suspect to being like yourself and unacquainted with poverty), but it’s like trying to explain color to a blind person. Poor people want change too and generally speaking they support liberal ideas though they have been fed so much propaganda it’s hard to cut through the clutter of talking points, pejoratives and lies. I’m no longer exactly poor though I’m far from upper middle class and I’m here to tell you that if I had a family to deal with, I wouldn’t be able to spend any time searching through news items. I’d probably consume news like most poor people: In an easy chair that’s seen better days, half asleep with exhaustion in front of the evening news or CNN. The bottom line is poor and lower middle class people aren’t going to rise up until their living conditions are desperate enough to overwhelm their motivation to keep their jobs, which they rely on payday to payday. There’s also the matter of having little enough leisure time that they’d rather spend it doing something fun instead of protesting and possibly getting beaten and/or arrested. I’m not suggesting you’ve done it but it pisses me off when people deplore working folks for not being more active and engaged. Such a person who would say those things is clearly one of those well off whites who have never wanted for food or medical care. The conservatives and toady media have done an excellent job of giving working people this vision of a “liberal” as a well off white college grad who had all of the opportunities they were denied, who likes to sneer at them from an ivory tower. Yep, so not fair but there it is. That’s my analysis of poor, working class people and politics in as condensed a form as I can make it.
I grew up IRC WAY outside of Boston. Blond hair blue eyed,i worked my way into the back towns of NH. Grew my hair and lived in a teepee. Froze my ass off and worked my ass off. Earned some local respect but i was still “a dirty fucking hippie” Then made my way to Alaska in 80 an found my way in the forest circus. Still i was kept as “their hippie” Next i got a job with the state fish+game. The feds were pissed as the state was stealing “their hippie” A few more years of that and i went on my own as a deck hand commercial fishing. Still known as an “owned hippie” Finally earning my rights as a free “dirty fucking hippie” Today i am just a “fucking hippie” (i have running water) I was over 40 years old before i was called sir. Now what were we talking about? Anyway i spent some years in South Africa and i still dont know why the locals respected me. Guess they did not know what a “fucking hippie” was supposed to be. Does this make any sense?
*heh* This ‘poor white individual’ is making some noise, Peg…!
Well, Hedges is a Christian, and Christianity is nothing if not apocalyptic. However, the common thread that you point out here, cmaukonen, may be what a declining white, Western world sounds like.
“And it’s why any and all attempts of forcing other groups and cultures into adopting our ways of thinking and our world views and repressing and treating them as some how inferior to us and vice versa is not just morally wrong, but also destructive to them and to us.”
Indeed. Empires don’t do empathy. They do objectification, as that is the prerequisite for exploitation of The Other and whatever valuable shit they may have.
“We need to learn how to accept people as they are first . . .”
Getting over one’s own fear is the necessary precondition for this. If those in the US have any concern at all for “other groups and cultures,” the best things we can do is stop being afraid and then leave them the fuck alone.
Great post, cmaukonen!
I am too but In don’t have children or an elderly parent to care for. I work between 8.5 and 10 hours a day, then I come home, prepare a meal, ride my bike for an hour and then I can finally skim the news, write letters, sign petitions, etc. But I couldn’t afford to take May Day off, any more than I can afford to take my birthday off.
Know of that which you write but it didn’t occur to me until I went on my own; but as towards your point “Poor people work the kind of jobs in which participating in a general strike can get you summarily fired.”; and then there are the whistleblowers who might not be monetarily poor but are still screwed and then there are people like Booker where it goes beyond being poor.
I’m not defending anyone but it would seem that those described by “There are a whole lot of people on this very blog who continually hack out screeds blaming the state of things on apathy or ignorance and deplore the fact that more working people aren’t in the streets.” are not targeting those that are monetarily poor. Then again, they could just be hypocrites. :->)
Margaret this is exactly what I was trying to say. though I had been in a situation – shortly after my father died – where we had little money. This is not the same as being Poor. Not the same as coming from a history of Poor with a prognoses of being Poor.
I am aware of all this and is what I was attempting to say. Which is why I myself do not get into any kind of discussions about how to alleviate the situation as I have no wisdom in that area since I have little experience.
Believe it or not perfect sense.
In other words, “It is not the same thing to talk of bulls as to be in a bull ring”
I am here, but need to read everything. I may die trying.
The WAS(P) so-called heritage has a biological, and consequently a genetic, historical basis. It can be traced to the Vikings as we call them. After the demise of Pax Romana in the fifth century, those northern Europeans ‘migrated’ as invaders as far East as Russia (where they were known as the Rus), into northern France (the Normans or Norsemen), into the British Isles (Angles, Saxons, and Juts) where they established the Danelaw (Danelaeg) and Irish red hair, and as far south as Italy where Italians get their fair hair and light eyes. They were feared everywhere, but they left their seed. In fact, the Danes have the largest testicles among all human genome types. What followed ever since is very complicated and bizarre. Botticelli’s Venus looking Nordic. Many Jesuses looking Nordic. Michelangelo’s David’s foreskin. Coincidentally, only the Northern European genome could ingest cow’s milk without allergies or intolerance.
You may die of old age, trying to keep up with our Western Imperialism, Christine…!
The bull has two ends: out of one comes bullshit, out of the other come horns… Not knowing the difference is life threatening.
Story time, OK. I am white too, have known both plenty and poverty (now poor), and I’m now living in the black community (near where the L.A. riots began) where struggle and anger and despair are happening every day, with gunshots ringing out on my street, numerous cops sirening in and hassling people, accidents quite frequent, helicopters circling the hood. Beggars hang out on every corner here, and so do the pushers (drug dealers).
I ride the bus every day and I talk to black folks quite often, although many are reluctant to open up to a white guy. Some of them wear Obama t-shirts and they hope against hope that his promises will be honored. Most others don’t trust the political system at all, and they’re much more savvy than most whites I’ve known. The younger ones are unlikely to be engaged in the “political process”, because they know it won’t make any difference to vote or speak out. The older ones tend to be more community/church oriented, and they pray for a better day, but they decry the lack of education of the young people and they just endure the ongoing iniquities.
One way or another, you have to be connected to the money centers in your community. Very few own their own business, and that is a huge burden. As a working person, you have to be plugged into the corporate matrix; if you’re unemployed you have to rely on the government or the black market. Some people around here do both, and they do pretty damn well (better than I, by far). There’s a lot of creativity and caring amongst the people, but there’s also a great deal of need and want, and it’s a shame that so much human potential goes unfulfilled.
I also meet a lot of Hispanics, who seem to keep to themselves and stick together. They, too, are suffering from discrimination and lack of opportunities. But they don’t seem to mind how many children they bring into the world — the more the better. And they know how to help each other and milk the system. But they work hard and study hard, and they contribute a great deal to the economy and the culture.
The policies and programs following the Great Depression and War on Poverty that had enabled the underclasses to be lifted up to positions of productivity and relative comfort, are callously and systematically being stripped away. Alternative cultures of illegal drugs and anti-white society are replacing them, the result being misery and mass incarceration. These law enforcement policies are being promoted by the private prison industry and the agencies of government that profit from the drug wars. As others have said, it’s the new form of slavery.
All I can say now, is there is very little optimism among young people, minorities, and seniors. The old maxim that hard work will be rewarded, no longer stands. The “economy” for most people is imploding, and minorities suffer the most. What do we whites have to complain about?… not much, by comparison.
I, for one, have very little hope that I will “recover” from this maelstrom to regain a decent standard of living, no matter my level of education, demonstrable skills and talent… and yet, I don’t have the disadvantages of non-whites in the job market. The future looks bleak to so many of us who are struggling, and leadership is absent or remiss.
Touché
{{bows humbly}}
I, for one, have very little hope that I will “recover” from this maelstrom to regain a decent standard of living, no matter my level of education, demonstrable skills and talent… and yet, I don’t have the disadvantages of non-whites in the job market. The future looks bleak to so many of us who are struggling, and leadership is absent or remiss.
So do I, norecovery, but, I slog on and make my voice heard by my various Political Critters…! That’s about all ‘We the People’ can do…! 8-(
What you have just described is what everyone in DC and wall street fears the most and what TARP and the FED is and has been trying to prevent from happening. Not to the poor in our area or here around Buckeye or East Cleveland or Parts of the west side. These people like yourself are already at or near bottom. A financial collapse would not effect them that much.
But those who live in places like Winter Part Fl. or The Villages or Hilton Head Island or the upper crust areas around Denver or Orange Co. Ca. The neuvo riche’ and bourgeoisie who would find themselves in your position.
They would be the ones who would take to the streets and riot. Not the poor who already know what poor means.
I may live in a very rich place. I do live with those who have not.And i see all kinds of inhumanity’s all the time. Just the other day i found an old friend who i check in on from time to time, stuck in a splayed position on his couch in his tiny little cabin, for over a day an a half from a stroke.–had to get an ambulance as i could not move him for i have three broken ribs and collar bone– none the less i come to find some bright spark robbed him while he could not move,and called NOBODY. First thought was WHITE TRASH. And i was right. I am white, i am poor, am i prejudiced? Asshole’s come in all colors and shapes. My native friends remind me.
I have trouble imagining those people taking to the streets, with all due respect.
I realize I’m leaning towards severe cynical, but, I imagine those people attacking each other and clawing for the survival of the fittest within their known structure.
They’re not survivors in a real, natural world. They have no true skills. Without their talk and computer, they have even less.
I can’t imagine them having an OMFG moment and realizing they need to meld into a community in a non-asshole way.
x2
…Assholes come in all shapes and colors…
That they do, homeroid…!
Margaret’s point is, I think, very well taken. I also, cmaukonen, begain life in one world, moved to a different one while still a child, and have ended up in an entirely new world. That’s probably a vey common experience, except for those who are so ground down by poverty that they can never escape it, as most of us need and want to do, or the few that are megawealthy and will perhaps stay that way.
Economic factors are huge. For those of us who are poor, this defines our world. When you must work, that defines your world, just as trying to raise children does. It narrows your horizons to what you can physically accomplish in a day, no matter what the color of your skin.
Perhaps because I didn’t grow up in this country, I haven’t ever found race to be the defining factor. Not that discrimination never entered the picture, but because of a huge war, differences were national, and the ‘other’ was German or Japanese or even Italian. And those differences were obviously artificial, a momentary antagonism and fear that went away. Nor did we here and now, much as many feared we would, consider race in electing Obama. And I don’t consider it in regretting my choice.
Some do, no doubt about that. And it is a huge problem in many environments. But I think it is as damaging to talk about an ‘AngloSaxon civilization’ in negative terms as it is to crow about it and think it superior to other ethnicities. Both are superficial racial divisions. There are human values which we all can appreciate if we think about them, and rather than overloading our psyches with guilt about the terrible things some humans have done to others, it is better to take responsibility on a personal level and face each situation as it comes.
That this country used to be able to do, not perfectly, but much more wisely than it is doing at present.
Ah but the point is that those halcyon days of old were “made by whites, for whites” exclusively. Minorities need not apply.
Giant testicles, and the ability to metabolize cow’s milk.
That sounds like a pretty weird superhero.
Where did you get this? “In fact, the Danes have the largest testicles among all human genome types.” The only thing I could find is below from here and that is simply reflecting caucasian versus asian.
“Although measurements of testis size by orchidometry in living subjects are difficult to standardize, they suggest smaller testes in Japanese and Korean men than in Caucasions. Weighing at autopsy is more accurate and showed that the size was twofold lower in two Chinese samples compared with a Danish sample. Differences in body size make only a slight contribution to these values.” (Diamond, JM (1986) Variation in human testis size. Nature (London) 320: 488) [note: larger African testes supports promiscous origins hypothesis, yet if African testosterone levels are higher, it refutes inverse relationship between sperm and T production]”
And chalking everything up to the vikings does seem overboard.