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Here’s the transcript: ‘US has never been straight with its people about its foreign policy aims’
As Flynt Leverett and Hillary Mann Leverett asked today at their The Race For Iran blog…
Can The United States Deal Effectively—And Honestly—With Politically Empowered Muslim Societies?
…“How can this happen in a country we helped liberate, in a city we helped save from destruction?”
In fact, it is not so hard to understand how “this”—along with the protests at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo, subsequent protests at U.S. diplomatic facilities in Sanaa, Khartoum and across the region, and myriad other manifestations of resentment against the United States in much of the Arab and Muslim worlds—could happen. But most Americans don’t really want to understand it. For, as Hillary underscores on The Ed Show, “the critical issue here is the deep-seated resentment that people have for U.S. policy throughout the region…Hatred and resentment for U.S. policy are the heart of the problem here. Communities throughout the Middle East are angry.”
This reality is now crashing in on U.S. ambitions in the Middle East every day. Yet, as Hillary notes on MSNBC, Americans “have not even begun to grapple with the enormity of the challenge we face as countries become more politically participatory, and people have a voice.” {…}
“There’s a really fundamental flaw in U.S. strategic policy…and it has to do with empire. We look at each country, at each place, and we see the expatriates that we want to see in the cafés in Paris, who parrot our line about secular liberalism, and we arm, fund, and train them to go back and, in effect, impose a political order on those societies that have very different histories, characters, cares, and concerns…Those expatriates we listen to repeatedly—in Iraq, Iran, Libya, everywhere—we listen to them not because we’re stupid but because we have a very determined focus for dominance.” {…}
The real critique—which Romney, of course, won’t put forward—is “why is the Obama administration really so dishonest in its policies, and how could people in the Middle East really take America’s word seriously as a constructive force.” Until Americans and the politicians can address that, they never will understand “what is the reason” for Middle Easterners’ anger.
A guest poster at Col. Lang’s SST really laid it out…
We Reap What We Sowed–Foresman
The United States is now paying the supreme price for our arrogance in dealing with the Islamic people of the Near East (I use the old term for a reason) has resulted in neither stability nor democracy. We do not understand the Arab world; we do not understand Islam. Somehow we have convinced ourselves that Arabs are no different than us—rational by western standards, influenced by the Judeo-Christian ethic and a believer in the concept of the state ascending over tribalism. They are rational, but by the standards of their culture, history, and religion. They are not western. They are tribal. Religion is the central part of their life. The concept of and loyalty to a nation state is accepted in the abstract but does not transcend their tribe or family. But they are rational actors. They do not like foreigners. They accept the tenets of their religion with fervor of belief.
We are reaping what we sowed…
Here’s a disturbing report from the ‘nonpartisan’ Iran Project:Weighing Benefits and Costs of Military Action Against Iran (PDF! 32pgs)
Now, don’t you find this rather rich…
Iran guided by same fanaticism behind embassy attacks, Netanyahu says…
Prime minister tells NBC that Tehran places zealotry above survival
Having been stymied by the ruling administration, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu took his case for stopping Iran’s nuclear program to the American public Sunday, comparing Tehran to Muslim rioters attacking US embassies around the world in response to an anti-Islam film.
“Iran is guided by an unbelievable fanaticism,” he told NBC’s David Gregory. “It’s the same fanatics that you see storming your embassies today. You want these fanatics to have nuclear weapons?”
The prime minister recorded interviews with NBC’s “Meet the Press” and CNN’s “State of the Union” Saturday night, both of which will air on Sunday morning US time. A snippet of the interview with NBC was posted online early Sunday morning…
Keeping up with Bibi in the zealotry dept… Krauthammer: America casts Israel adrift as Iran speeds up its nuclear program, Jennifer Rubin, the WSJ editorial board, and, even the Doughy Pantload just had to chime in with:We can’t be hostages of foreign mobs!
Now, to cleanse the palate… here’s a recent take-down of The Grey Lady’s agitprop… NYT Buries the Lead on Iran
Meanwhile… Muslim riots spread across Middle East, N. Africa and, Report: US Positioning Forces in as Many as 18 Locations.
What a Clusterf*ck…!
In closing… two things to ponder… Covenant of Protection from Prophet Muhammad Commands Muslims to Protect Jews and Christians until the End of Time, and, Pope urges Christians to be peacemakers in Middle East.
God Help us all…!
70 Comments
“We do not understand the Arab world; we do not understand Islam. Somehow we have convinced ourselves that Arabs are no different than us—rational by western standards, influenced by the Judeo-Christian ethic and a believer in the concept of the state ascending over tribalism. They are rational, but by the standards of their culture, history, and religion. They are not western. They are tribal. Religion is the central part of their life. The concept of and loyalty to a nation state is accepted in the abstract but does not transcend their tribe or family. But they are rational actors. They do not like foreigners. They accept the tenets of their religion with fervor of belief.”
No, this is basically false. People are also economic actors, even fundamentalist Muslims. People there more than ever can see what is going on and refuse to accept the notion that they should just lie down and accept whatever the authorities tell them to do. They are probably angry at the U.S. because we have supported the status quo for so many years. But the poster denigrates Muslims as mere tribalists, mere religionists. I say No, no, no.
I don’t know anyone on the left or the right who thinks that the U.S. is honest about its foreign policy aims or, for that matter, honest about much of anything.
Before the Internet and also before we started to notice that our jobs had emigrated out of the U.S., we were in a news bubble. We did not care much about what was going on outside our borders.
Most of us still don’t know all the crap that went down. And no one will ever know all of it.
Even at that few of us truly wonder why we are so hated, though some are in actual denial and many pretend denial.
Recommended.
No this is not basically false it is basically true, and no the poster is not denigrating Muslims as mere tribalists, mere religionists, it is more than somewhat disingenuous of you to claim that that is what Foreman is saying what he said is this:
Sic Semper Tyrannis : We Reap What We Sowed–Foresman:
Emphasis mine. Foreman has it precisely correct. I have spent my entire adult life in the Middle East, I am fluent in several Arabic dialects to the point where native speakers who hear recordings of me speaking are unable to tell that I am not a fellow native-speaker. I have been inducted into the آل علي – which means of course that I am a member of the بني مالك. Why yes that does mean that I’ve accepted into those tribes as a member, how clever of you to guess. I work closely every day with Muslims of varying levels of intensity of commitment to Islam. Based on a lifetime of living amongst the people here, study of their lives, customs, and beliefs, and the empirical experience of sharing those lives with them may I with severely limited respect for you inform you that not only are you wrong but that you are dangerously wrong.
They are angry at the people of the USA and their government because of the savagely vicious racism with which you have always behaved towards them.
They are angry about how the people of the USA and their government consistently ally themselves and support one viciously tyrannical regime after another.
They are angry about how you Americans consistently elect governments that kill more than ½ a million Iraki children under sanctions. Wage illegal wars of aggression and occupation against their fellow Muslims.
They’re angry about how you Americans consistently elect governments that prop up the racist settler state of Israel and its savagely enforced apartheid regimes.
They’re angry about how you Americans consistently elect governments that prop up the racist settler state of Israel and its repeated land grabs and its repeated wars of aggression against Lebanon.
Most of all they’re angry about how arrogant naive fools like you try to keep up the ludicrous economic reductionist pretense that we are all the same. No they are not the same as you. No they do not have the same motivations as you. No they are not even remotely interested in becoming like you and they bitterly resent American efforts to try to drag them down to the level of good little brown copies of you Americans. And yes they you wrote is yet another insistence that everyone be dragged down to a level and type that conforms to your beliefs.
mfi
USA POLICY AIMS=protect the corporations with taxpayer funded pentagon wars…the end
…X 2
Bravo!
The following is from my diary;
Before we had asymmetrical warfare.
Our attempts to discuss the world are made harder by people who believe that a constant effort to ‘debunk’ the other person’s words somehow signifies a superior mind.
US Foreign Policy = PNAC = Open “new markets” to exploit resources for the benefit of Corporations via “Free Trade Agreements”.
If super-lopsided agreement to benefit Multinational Corporation(s) – aka US Corporation(s) with offshore HQ for tax evasion – cannot be reached thru economic support aka bribery via World Bank “loans” to despotic foreign government(s), the maligning (in the “free press” which belongs to same Corporations) of said government ensues.
If that labasting doesn’t work, concurrently, sanctions are enacted against despot.
If that doesn’t do the trick, “Civil Wars” are instigated. If those don’t work, “Freedom” is reigned upon the poorest residents of the country.
I agree with you on the list of reasons that Arabs have to hate the American government, but the way you phrase things shows your own hateful biases and ignorance. Again and again you say “You Americans,” clearly meaning all of us.
If you really are from Ireland, they you’re probably a native English speaker and know damned well that your phrasing includes all Americans. Saying that all Americans support the actions of our government in the Middle East is ignorant at best, and hateful at worst. It’s pretty clear that you mean it in the latter form.
I, for one, know quite a few Arabs, both immigrants to this country and Arab-Americans. They certainly vehemently disagree with American foreign policy, but they don’t hate the American people. You do, so why bother posting on an American website?
Piss off, Mark from Ireland.
Before you get too deep into this fight, please consider it might be helpful to understand how the ‘original peoples’ of Ireland, the Americas, South Africa, and Israel are were impacted by the Settler Cultures’ that invaded, conquered, and oppressed them.
In each case, a well organized and experienced British Empire was deeply involved, an empire whose well-honed method was divide and conquer, and the imposition of a proxy army of settlers.
It’s a history of cruelty and genocide that members of the dominant ‘settler/occupier’ culture are loath examine with any depth, or much honesty.
These are your American governments irrespective of faction elected by you Americans and which govern your country including the consistent foreign policy of your country with the consent of you Americans. That revolting policy is enforced with savagery barbarity and old-fashioned redneck viciousness by your American soldiers. Your American soldiers who are your fellow-Americans born and raised in American homes by your fellow-Americans who inculcate them with your American society’s values and norms of behaviour. They then go to your American schools where your American teachers further socialise and inculcate them with your American society’s values and norms including immediate hysteria the moment you encounter even minimal disagreement or resistance.
The fact that you and your ilk are such cowards that you can’t even begin to acknowledge the truth of that is your problem and your cowardly abject miserable failure. Your problem not mine. And no I will not piss off at the behest of some sniveling little failure like you. Come back and talk to me when you’ve learnt how to argue rationally. Even better come back and talk to me when you can point to American so-called “progressives” or American self-styled “Socialists” actually accomplishing something worthwhile like winning some elections and governing according to some half-way decent principles.
mfi
IOW, in a certain important sense, the War of Independence was fought for, and resulted in America getting more control and a bigger share of the profits of empire.
A partnership that has existed to this day and is intentionally down-played.
The aim of US foreign policy is empire.
Empires are devestating to the dominated lands, and ultimately debilitating to the home country. It is, however, immensely profitable to the few. And that’s what really matters, isn’t it?
I’ve lived in the USA and once thought I had something to say about Americans. Then I married one. Now I’m much more circumspect.
I lived in Japan and once would have claimed to know something about Japanese. Then my younger son married a Japanese girl. It quickly came to light that I didn’t know shit!
I hope we’re not arguing without reference to half (or more) of the subject populations.
“Come back and talk to me when you’ve learnt how to argue rationally.” Rationally?
You, in your fury, threw a sharp stick at an ill defined, probably innocent, eye.
OB got offended and reacted badly to your lumping all Americans toghther. He’s probably spent his whole life bravely contending with certain groups of Americans who may deserve your opprobrium.
Your response @ 11 above while equally scattershot began as an indictment that would have warranted a reasonable respons. Can anyone in a nation ruled by capitalist imperialists actually escape all blame for their depredations?
Then you fell to raving in the fashion we expect from Arab mobs brought to fever pitch by Imams skilled at drawing forth just such venom and spleen. Do we believe that the young men who make up these mobs truly represent all the people of Islam? God I hope not.
Then you fell to raving in the fashion we expect from Arab mobs brought to fever pitch by Imams skilled at drawing forth just such venom and spleen. Do we believe that the young men who make up these mobs truly represent all the people of Islam? God I hope not.
*wow* That’s some opprobrium, Ragg…! 8-(
Folks, Gor has lost loved ones due to our misbegotten illegal invasion of Irak, he’s experienced our hubris firsthand, and, I respect his views, no matter how uncomfortable they make me…!
I should add that most Imams don’t preach hatred, just like most Christians don’t preach hatred, yet, we have Dr. Jones and the Westboro Baptist fanatics, which are well-known in the Muslim world…!
Not to mention the fact that those Imams don’t need to very skilled at “drawing forth venom and spleen” when they have so much help from people like Terry Jones and his film-maker friends.
Ohio Barbarian is a thin-skinned redneck who has a long long long record of reacting with hysterical fury at the slightest hint criticism of America and Americans particularly if the person doing the criticising actually has direct personal experience of what they’re talking about. If he and his little liar friend want to behave like thin-skinned rednecks then they’ve earned the right to be treated accordingly.
If he doesn’t like this:
Then it’s up to him to change it. The fact is that you Americans consistently elect governments that consistently behave with cynically vicious savagery throughout the middle-east. They use your American soldiers who are your your fellow Americans with your society’s norms, attitudes, and patterns of behaviour deeply engrained in them to do this. They do it by as you put “lumping all” together and then subjecting them to savage and overwhelming violence – collective punishment is a barbarian war crime, and it is also the American way.
Ask the parents of the somewhat more than ½ million Iraki children murdered by the sanctions about “lumping all” together. The overwhelming majority of those children were under the age of 18 months children. “We think the price is worth it” – remember that? That was a liberal Democrat government. Not a Republican it wasn’t a bushy it was one of you.
Or perhaps you’d like to talk to the families of the unarmed civilians targeted by your American troops using chemical weapons – Fallujah was just one example of them doing that.
How about the collective punishment being visited on the various peoples of Afghanistan?
Or the collective punishment currently being meted out in preparation for war against the peoples of Iran?
To put it mildly for you to snivel about “lumping all” together when in every single war your country has waged since the late 1940s doing precisely that to civilians is what your fellow Americans have done and continue to do and are actively preparing to do again is more than somewhat disingenuous.
If you don’t like it stop dishing it out.
EOD
mfi
As to this contemptible garbage. I’m going to treat it and you with the contempt it warrants.
mfi
Gor, I hope you and yours are surviving and thriving, my munchkin is getting big…! ;-)
An exceptionally beautiful child!
FWIW, I have always copnsidered markfromireland’s comments to be some of the most intelligent, insightfulm and thought provoking on these boards.
Sometimes remioniscent of Chris Floyd over at Empire Burlesque, and Arthur Silber,too.
Amen.
Well, that was enlightening.
Mahalo, Gitcheegumee, he is my pride and joy these days…! 8-)
I agree that Gor and the entire Gorilla Guides crew are top-notch, my only regret is that they don’t post here anymore…! 8-(
Col. Lang just posted a new post… (irony alert) Natanyahu on Iranian fanatics…
With much respect to the people already engaged, until there’s a large anti-war, anti-imperialist movement in this country; until there are more than a handful of journalists and bloggers willing relentlessly to search for and publish the truth; as long as there are so many people who for some reason consider themselves to be “left” or “liberal” supporting wars of invasion, occupation, and terrorizing civilian populations; as long as we keep electing people and parties that have made it clear they will continue these policies; we have acknowledge the conclusions based on markfromireland’s experience and knowledge, as CTuttle says, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us.
Well said, mary…!
What a handsome child. Does he have his own surfboard yet?
Thanks for the above links Tut, I’ve been trying to get some sense of what is really going on in the ME. I concur with MFI’s assessment, I’m just wondering who is “stirring the pot”, if anyone.
You are most certainly entitled to be both prideful and joyful in such a beautiful child,CT.
Would it be inappropriate to ask if that is YOU cutting the cake?
I’m the grey-bearded dfh at the very end of the clip…! That’s my daughter and future son-in-law…! ;-)
He did get his first skateboard at his Baby Luau…! ;-)
It’s the entire Big Oil/MIC/Intel/State/PNAC Neo(Zio)cons ‘stirring the pot’…! 8-(
I’d argue that the muslim community is just as racist. Frankly, I’d have far more sympathy for them if they didn’t spend half their time discussing oppressing folks that have different beliefs then them.
And don’t even get me started on the overt sexism in that culture.
The problem imo is a little more complex than most are making it 1)sometimes our interests don’t align with the interests of the region and we (the us)have no problem riding roughshod over them(the ME). 2) The region is comparatively poor and the leaderships are often corrupt and have no problem making us the scapegoats for the problems people experience. 3) The differences in our cultures are manipulated(as often we experience here between the “left” and the “right”) so that fear of those differences being foisted upon them can trump respect for different thoughts, ideas, opinions and belief sets.
A few months ago,quite by chance, I came upon the Wiki entry for Mormons and Judaism. Quite startling to me,actually.
Here’s the intro,but the entire entry is MOST intruiging:
Mormonism and Judaism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The doctrines of the Latter Day Saint movement, commonly referred to as Mormonism, teach that its adherents are either direct descendants of the House of Israel, or are adopted into it. As such, Judaism is foundational to the history of Mormonism. According to Mormonism, the Jewish people are considered a covenant people of God, held in high esteem, and are respected in the Mormon faith system. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints refers to itself as philo-Semitic in its doctrine.
Studies have shown that Jews generally view Mormons more positively than any other religious group,[1][2] despite often voting on opposite ends of the political spectrum. Explanations for Jews’ high regard for Mormons is speculated to come both from their solidarity with other historically abused religious minorities and the philo-semitism of Mormon theology.[3]
Knowing another cultures perspective is key to understanding. Some here may not want to hear it, but thank you for spelling it out and saying it straight. It needed to be said. Sometimes that is the only way to get the message across.
I don’t care.
You don’t even know me,Edited by Moderator And just what are YOUR great accomplishments? You have no clue what it’s like to live in America, and yet you sit over where ever you are sitting on your sanctimonious, pompous ass and have the nerve to judge ME? Or to judge Americans in general? And leftist Americans in particular? Edited by Moderator.
Oliver Cromwell, where are you when we need you?
Take this for what it is worth, but MFI has been a member of multi-national peace keeping forces (a retired Col.) in the ME in general and in Irak specifically. He has always been given a bit of latitude in comments at FDL precisely because he knows and understands the situation “on the ground” in the ME far better than we can.) It is a sad thought to be blamed as citizens for the actions of our country in the ME but it is a truth never the less. We ARE responsible for the actions of our government and decrying them on a left leaning blog does not make us any less culpable.
Mahalo, Bra…!
Howzit Bra!
I’ll be spending tomorrow afternoon carrying/waving a sign that says “Don’t Iraq Iran” for Occupy Hilo’s #S17 anniversary…! ;-)
Thank you for taking the time to point that out. I appreciate it. I did agree with MFI’s points on why Arabs and other Middle Eastern peoples have every reason to be angry at the actions of the American and, for that matter, British, governments for the last century or so.
But I completely disagree with you when you, or MFI, tell ME that I am responsible for the actions of my government. That assumes that America actually has a functioning representative government. We don’t, and haven’t had one for over a generation. The system is rigged, does not work, and will collapse in my lifetime.
Since Mark from Ireland, who for some strange reason chooses to live in the Middle East rather than Ireland(or are there Irish who don’t want him back? Wouldn’t blame them if he judges them like he does us), does not live in America, perhaps he just doesn’t know how it is here.
I don’t pretend to know what it’s really like to be an Arab. I don’t go to Arab websites and tell them what to do or call them cowards for living under authoritarian governments, either. I demand the same treatment. It’s a matter of respect.
This should not be a difficult concept to understand.
You don’t enlighten people by screaming at them, insulting them, painting them all with the same tarry brush. You explain, document, encourage. There are people here who’ve been at it for many decades and continue to struggle regardless–for it is a huge struggle in which we have been and are engaged. We need to make sure we share with and encourage the younger people who’ve joined in that tradition for they’re going to have to continue the struggle toward responsible, conscience-driven government.
Since MFI has so much to teach us about the situation in the ME, and we certainly need to learn all we can, perhaps he could be encouraged to adjust his attitude to one of teacher and coach rather than guilt-tripper and haranguer.
Forget crying and culpability; practice responsibility.
Thank you.
Thanks, fatster; that was gently, and very well spoken.
Elongating very nicely indeed gramps :-)
mfi
Thank you – yes indeed.
mfi
His righteous fury spareth no A-merkin.
Some A-merkin justice to report *:
A good antidote to A-merkin Anti-mooslim-ism:
I’d argue that the muslim community is just as racist. Frankly, I’d have far more sympathy for them if they didn’t spend half their time discussing oppressing folks that have different beliefs then them.
The Future of the Global Muslim Population – Pew Research Center:
Wow just fucking wow. At a somewhat conservative estimate there are 1.6 billion people who are Muslim. You have never ever ever lived in a Muslim country NEVER. You have no idea whatsoever of what it’s like to live in a Muslim country you have no idea whatsoever of the massive cultural differences even between Arab countries let alone between for example Irak and Malaysia. None.
Got blatantly racist hypocrisy much?
Incidentally you’re a citizen of the country that wages war on a people on the basis of a pack of lies having first murdered somewhat more than ½ million of their children. Tell me does that not count as oppression?
From the end of WWII to now your country has consistently been on the side of and actively supported the some of the most loathsome regimes imaginable. That’s when your country isn’t actively slaughtering the civilians of countries who happen to have displeased your country and who of course happen not to be white.
I ask you again – have you got blatantly racist hypocrisy much?
And don’t even get me started on the overt sexism in that culture.
See above.
The problem is very simple you’re an empire whose origins are of being a racist settler state used to seizing what it wants by genocidal means – your behaviour abroad is merely your society being true to its origins.
mfi
You’re right nor would I want to I regard you as trash.
Wrong.
Apart from the civilian lives saved when I was serving as a bomb disposal officer you mean? That would be the orphanages set up and run for the more than 5 million Iraki children orphaned by the recent war waged upon their country by the Government and people of America, the street children rescued (same reason), the clinics set up to replace the ones bombed out of existence by the armed forces of the government and people of America, the business and trading classes for widows who needed suddenly to support themselves and their children followed by micro loans to get them started, you can read all about it here
That would be the country which you and your fellow “leftist” (bwaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaaha “leftist” Americans that’s rich …) Americans did nothing to prevent. And spare me the crap about marches or whatever useless thing it was you did. It’s results that count.
I note that as usual the moment you encounter disagreement you resort to foul language ad hominem and insults. You did it to this Iraki the moment he politely expressed disapproval of American behaviour in his country and adjoining countries. When I did the same you immediately started in on the foul language ad himinems and insults.
You’re never going to amount to much with your problems but hey you could get a job with the 372nd Military Police Company of Cresaptown with your attitudes you’ll fit right in.
I rest my case.
mfi
I understand it perfectly your consistently abysmal behaviour including to my Iraki colleagues and friends shows that you don’t.
Here’s an even easier concept for you. If you don’t like being treated as a thin-skinned redneck refrain from being one.
mfi
You might like to direct that to Ohio Barbarian. As for me when somebody starts off by being fucking rude and very aggressive I get aggressive back when dealing with people like OB and his mendacious little sidekick that’s what works.
Lot’s of luck with that. What passes for the American “left” is utterly ineffectual and marginal precisely because instead of actually fighting your political opponents you take the easy way out and what was it you said ? Oh yes … “You explain, document, encourage.” No wrong, if you want a “responsible, conscience-driven government” then you organise and fundraise and do all the horrible dull boring slog work that you need to do if you want a base from which to fight and defeat your political enemies. A big difference between people like you and your political enemies is that they are good at organising and doing all the horrible boring slog work. They’ve been at it quite literally for generations now.
I and my Muslim colleagues tried that however there are only 24 hours in the day and we saw no reason to continue to waste our time.
mfi
Charles you know the reason why we don’t as well as I do. There’s none so deaf as the willfully deaf and life is too short to waste on the willful.
gor
Thanks but you’re wasting your time. He’s consistently behaved in a trashy way because that is how wants to behave. Fine, he has the right to behave in a trashy way but not the right to snivel when I treat him accordingly.
mfi
Thank you for agreeing with my comment 18 above.
mfi
Incidentally Charles in case you missed this from Colonel Lang:
Sic Semper Tyrannis:
All foreign policy is rooted in domestic politics. If the US cannot be straight about its foreign policy aims, it is because there is either (1) too much division about what they should be, (2) serious conflict between the aims and what the public wants, or (3) both.
All foreign policy statements (of any nation btw) are carefully crafted compromises between what the leaders want to say to the foreign nation and what the leaders want to say to their own people. Fail at one or the other an you are either in a domestic political firestorm or a foreign war.
The reality is that in the US right now there is a substantial and influential minority that never saw a war they didn’t like or couldn’t profit from. Until that is dealt with institutionally, no member of Congress and no President will be able to pursue a different foreign policy.
We need to start focusing on that in the midst of getting worked up about all of the consequences of have a 65-year-old obsolete military industrial media education complex.
Obsolete? Say, when did it go obsolete?
And couldn’t you say that the State Department is not straight about it’s foreign policy aims because the Empire’s fraud is habitual, i.e. institutionalized?
“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.” Thomas Paine
markfromireland has strong points which are buttressed by his own indesputable record, but his attacks here are puzzling, particularly in the targets he chooses. It’s like attacking the teachers for the horrible system of public education, and I am in sympathy with Ohio Barbarian for his response. I do think the two of you are more alike than you are different, and that thumos(spirit) you both evidence, is most definitely what the world needs, and this country in particular. Blessings on you both!
I was going to quietly post that CTuttle makes a very good point about governments – and I really like that term ‘Near East’ since everything middle has been getting raked over the coals lately. There really is something wrong with our US arrogance in dealing with all other countries – allies included. You just have to remember Bush landing on Queen Elizabeth’s roses – the people in power are really reallty crass! I don’t think this is ‘western’ against ‘eastern’ – it is just losing sight of the folk who matter, people instead of corporate bigwigs. And that could happen in any country but it is far, far worse when you think you are number one, and all the maggots are feeding on this rotten carcass.
Mark keeps reminding us of that attitude, fiercely. If he can help us change it, short of all of us emigrating to the nearest Near East country, that is going to be great. Many of us thought we were changing it when we elected a guy with the middle name ‘Hussein.’ Boy, were we hoodwinked, true enough; but we’re still trying.
I think our best bet is the Greens because their platform spells it out, and they don’t take corporate money so they are not going to be beholden. If we don’t get a fair election in spite of all this effort – then indeed all bets are on the table. Occupy and the young people we support, literally support, aren’t going away and even the stalwarts of the duopoly are wavering and diminishing in number. This is all very encouraging.
huh?
X 2, juliania, and Zounds: I wish I could have written that. ;o)
Your fake puzzlement ill becomes you.
mfi
There’s nothing even slightly puzzling about my attacking somebody who consistently behaves in a trashy way. He needs to either get used to it or to refrain from behaving like thin-skinned redneck trash. There’s nothing either surprising or to discuss about this. These remarks apply equally to his mendacious little sh*t of a sidekick.
Similarly there’s nothing even slightly surprising in my attacking somebody who spouts Erik Prince’s talking points about how his mercenaries were just “guards” and then flies into a self-congratulatory tizzy about 50 years of activism in the “peace” movement, yeah right, 50 years of abject miserable failure to accomplish even the most miniscule success is not repeat not something to boast about.
As I remarked above we tried that but gave up. There are only 24 hours in the day and life is too short to waste on the willfully obtuse.
Lots of luck with that and I mean that sincerely because a lot of luck coupled with hard hard deathly dull and boring organising and relentless publicisation is what it will take to even begin to make an impact. The greens did it successfully in parts of Europe there’s no reason why something similar can’t be done in the US.
And your evidence for that is? If true it would indeed be encouraging.
mfi
I would oh so love to see you go head-to-head with Thomas Friedman of The Lexus and the Olive Tree infamy. He thinks that all non-Americans want the American lifestyle and the culture that goes with it. (Though “the American lifestyle” peaked round about 1974 when real wages peaked and has been gradually falling ever since. We’ve gone to all sorts of means to mask this — two-income families, massive borrowing — but the house of cards finally collapsed in 2007 and there’s no putting it back together.)
The Greens in the US exist in large part because the Republicans fund them to siphon votes from the Democrats. If the US actually had instant runoff voting with ranked-choice voting (ranked choice being important because otherwise there could be a France 2002 situation where the expected winner Jospin came in third because the left spread its votes among a dozen-odd fringe parties, and so were forced in the runoff to hold their noses and vote for Chirac to avoid Le Pen), the Greens’ funding would drop dramatically because the GOP would have no more use for them.
Race is and always has been the major driver of American politics and life. One reason — perhaps the key reason — for the revolt of 1776 was that the plantation owners, seeing the mounting public opinion against slavery in Britain and in the North, feared that the growing abolitionist sentiment that had recently found legal reinforcement (via the Somerset decision or Somersett’s Case, about which no American schoolchild ever is taught) would soon mean that the Crown would outlaw slavery in British colonies as well as in Britain itself. (A hint of how important the Southern role was in maintaining as well as birthing the United States of America can be found in advertising-copywriter-turned-historian Walter Lord’s book The Dawn’s Early Light, wherein he describes the War of 1812 — and in particular its turning point at Fort McHenry — as the key event that gave the new nation staying power; he notes that the Northern states, which profited from smuggling supplies to the British troops in Canada, wanted nothing to do with Mr. Madison’s War or the Southerners who backed it, whereas the Southern states were all for confrontation with Britain.)
After several centuries, it may well be that the issue of race — along with several other issues — finally will soon be settled in America, by demographics of a similar sort to that which leads certain Daily Mail readers to have fainting spells at the idea that “Mohammed” is a leading name for baby boys in the UK. But the old dinosaur of race hatred is still strong enough to do damage, though it is weakened severely from what it once was. As bad as things are in America now, they used to be far, far worse — the only way Franklin Roosevelt could get the Dixiecrats to agree to the New Deal is by promising to avoid giving Civil Rights activists any direct assistance through it, and two generations later LBJ knew full well that his signing of the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts would cause the Dixiecrats to bolt for the Republicans, who were waiting for them with open arms and the Southern Strategy.
This reminds me — Thurgood Marshall, one of the greatest persons to sit on the US Supreme Court, was not a fan of the original US Constitution:
Oh yes, I’ve been keenly aware since my teens of how overweeningly important the Southern States are in the USA and always have been. As I think you know both as a boy (scholarship boy) and then again when I was an adult I lived in the US.
The thing that always struck me about the southern states was how very very near to surface the underlying streak of viciousness was and indeed still is.
I did know about Sommerset and that quotation from Mansfield LCJ is very famous – at least over here among a certain kind of lawyer :-).
The book looks interesting and not too expensive – I think I’ll order a copy for next week when I’ll have some reading time.
I don’t think you have solved your race problem or that you are likely to in the near future. I agree completely it’s a lot better than it was. You’ve externalised it a lot into xenophobia and Islamophobie – foreigners especially those brown skinned semitic foreigners called Arabs being a favourite target. I’m not sure that having a large number or even a majority of hispanics will solve the problem of domestic racism directed towards negroes in my admittedly limited experience of hispanics (outside of the military) people like Zimmerman are very common.
mfi
Sorry I’ve reached my quota of redneck *ssh*les for the week. Ask me next week and I’ll consider it :-).
Except of course that you and I both know that it would be a complete waste of time. The man’s livelihood depends on him holding the revolting and ludicrous opinions he holds.
mfi
Oh indeed, and that ongoing collapse adds daily to the centripetal political forces in the USA. Unlike some I’m not yet convinced that the USA will fly apart into regional confederations although I wish it would as a weak divided and squabbling pack of confederations would be very good news for the rest of us.
mfi
The next time you’re in Washington D.C. conduct the following experiment. Walk (or drive) the original wide boulevards carefully noting the location of the original cannon emplacements. Then using a map of Washington at the time those emplacements were built calculate the field of fire allowing a 60° arc of shot. I think you’ll find the results very instructive.
mfi