Cross-posted from Slobber And Spittle
(FDL readers click here) Caption: This is what our economy looks like when it’s viewed through the lens of idiot savant economics. Image credit: Found here.
Reading Robert Reich’s blog post from yesterday, I see some troubling signs of the sort of disconnect between our elite and the rest of us that I wrote about here. In the article, Reich talks about what he thinks is likely to happen to the economy in the next year, and how it will affect Democratic chances in 2010.
He starts out well enough, by making this observation:
The Dems have enough votes to enact health care — the hurdle Bill Clinton failed to jump, contributing to the Republican takeover in 1994 — but when it’s enacted, expect the spin machines on both sides to be at full throttle. And because health care legislation won’t be implemented for another three or four years (depending whether the House or Senate versions prevail), Americans won’t be able to test the veracity of these wildly divergent claims. So don’t count on health reform to help Dems next November — nor harm them, either.
Foreign policy is just as unlikely to tip the scales. Sad to say, absent a draft most American families will read about American deaths in Afghanistan much the way they’ve absorb the U.S. body count in Iraq — as news items rather than personal tragedies. Nor will Iran’s nuclear capabilities, North Korea’s missile launches, Pakistan’s tumult, or Yemen’s terrorists have much electoral effect — unless terrorists commit an atrocity in America or on American travelers. Needless to say, China’s decision about whether and how much to revalue its currency, although important, will affect the votes of about three Americans (and I think I know all of them).
All of which, I think, is true. The bill for health care "reform" won’t come due for a few more years. It won’t be until 2012 that Democrats start paying for that colossal screwup, barring whatever fallout there is from progressive activists refusing to support them this year.
What’s really going to affect the vote in 2010, and what will potentially be disastrous for the Democrats, is the state of the economy. Actually, Reich put it a slightly different way:
Issue Number One — the overriding concern that will determine more than anything how many seats the Dems lose next fall — is jobs. If unemployment is 10 percent or more next November, the Dems are in danger of losing the House and will almost certainly be short of the 60 votes they need in the Senate.
And here is where Mr. Reich goes off the rails. Yes, jobs are important, in fact, jobs or the prospect of jobs in the near future is what will make or break the Democratic Party this year. Where he departs from reality, I think, is that there’s something magical about the ten percent figure. There isn’t.
First of all, the unemployment statistics, though they have a firm and measurable meaning, could be considered a made-up number for all the meaning they have to the average American. The statistic (as Reich points out) is the number of Americans who are still considered to be looking for work. It doesn’t include people who gave up looking for work, who found part-time or unskilled work because they couldn’t find a job in their specialty, or who tried to start a business because they couldn’t find a job. It also doesn’t take into account how many people found jobs that were lower paying than their last ones. In short, it doesn’t tell us much of anything about how the average American’s employment situation is going. It’s only a relative number, and a rather deceptive one at that.
Second, it’s just a number, with no particular meaning beyond being at the first double-digit number. If ten percent unemployment were deadly to political chances, Franklin Roosevelt wouldn’t have been re-elected once, let alone three times.
Which brings me to the main point of this essay. In the past, I’ve described myself as an "idiot savant economist". What I meant by that was that it’s sometimes effective to examine one’s own financial situation, try to determine how many other people are affected by it, and project what effect that will have on the economy. As I showed in that link, sometimes that method of looking at things is more effective than the way "real" economists look at the economy. I put "real" in quotes, not because I think that the guys who earned Ph.D’s in economics don’t know more about that subject than I do. They do. I just think that many forget what they learned, or don’t apply enough skepticism and good sense to their analysis to come to reasonable conclusions. There are plenty of economists who saw the current situation coming in far more detail and specificity than I did. There were also a substantial number who didn’t have a clue.
In applying the principles of idiot savant economics to the matter in question, I find that Reich has missed a key point, which explains why he’s completely wrong about what will work for the Democrats politically. Let’s shelve the question of what will work best for the economy, at least for the moment.
What will work best for the Democrats is giving the general public some sense that things are really going to get better. Unfortunately for them, things aren’t, and it’s plainly obvious to many of us. By "us", I don’t just mean progressive bloggers. I mean people who are out of work and looking for a job. I mean people who now have crappier jobs than they once did, or need to work two jobs because their primary job doesn’t pay enough. I mean people who are living from paycheck to paycheck. You see, these people are idiot savant economists, too. They know what they, their families, their friends, and their neighbors are going through. And none of that is getting any better.
What’s more, the Democrats have done precious little to change that. Worse still, our priorities are not the ones that Democrats have voted for. We idiot savant economists have watched as they refused to nationalize the banks and reorganize them sensibly, which is something that economists as diverse as Paul Krugman, Alan Greenspan, Ian Welsh, and Nouriel Rubini have said was the way to fix the financial sector. Instead, they poured trillions into them, with the only positive result that we can see having been that financial executive bonuses are even higher. They refused to make the banks renegotiate overvalued or usurious mortgages, allowing them to throw people out of their homes instead. The banks aren’t loaning money to us, because they’re too busy buying other banks. There have been no new regulations, because the banks said that wasn’t an option. Meanwhile, they let the auto companies dangle and crash, even though they employ tens of thousands of people in high-paying manufacturing jobs.
Meanwhile, the paltry effects of the stimulus package will have about run their course before election day. I suspect the Congress will pass some other stimulus package, just to move the real pain past November, 2010. Beyond that, though, we’re in for a world of hurt, and I suspect that most of us out here in the Land Beyond DCTM are aware of that.
That’s why Mr. Reich is wrong. What FDR gave us were programs that helped ordinary Americans, not programs that made the rich richer. He gave people hope, and didn’t break promises because they turned out to be inconvenient. The country endured far worse and still turned out to vote for FDR and the Democrats, because they knew the government was doing its damnedest to make things better, and that gave them hope that their lives would someday be better.
It’s why he’s wrong about the ultimate consequences of health care "reform", too. Failing to pass a bill could certainly be a problem for Democrats, but often how one fails is as important as the failure itself. These Democrats won’t fail trying to make the health care system better. They’ll fail by being satisfied that they created a bill that makes thing worse for many, and better for few besides the people who are already well off. Come the day after Election Day, 2012, I think the Democrats will finally realize how badly they screwed up.
The most recent Daily Kos/Research 2000 poll determined that as many as 45 percent of Democratic voters were either definitely or probably staying home rather than voting. The previous poll had put that number at 40 percent. Only a year after record numbers went to the polls to give Democrats overwhelming majorities in Congress and to put a Democrat, a black Democrat at that, in the White House, this is a firm indication of how badly the Democrats have screwed their base. Among Republicans, that number is about 14 percent. That spells bad news for Democrats at the polls, especially since that number shows more signs of getting worse than getting better.
That’s why the progressive movement of today is so screwed. It’s run by too many people like Mr. Reich and Prof. Krugman, who have barely a clue what it’s like to be the rest of us. Until they do, or until they decide to listen to us when we tell them, things are going to remain bad for us, and for Americans generally.
Afterword: I couldn’t include this thought in the narrative, but one of the things that I find so irritating about both Reich’s and Krugman’s opinions on these matters is that they are clearly humane enough to understand these things. I’ve used Reich’s words and his videos several times to illustrate points about health care, because they show a clear understanding of what the consequences of our current system are. They just don’t seem to understand how we have to live in order to deal with it. That really needs to change, or the people who run the Democratic Party will continue to think they can get away with the crap they’ve been peddling up until now.



61 Comments







Great piece Cujo. I particularly liked:
Cujo, I read your piece, and the Reich piece, and your 12/18/09 piece about what it’s like to be poor (trust me, I’m intimately familiar with that life). I don’t disagree with any of that, it’s just that I don’t see anything in Reich’s piece, and I don’t recall anything in Krugman’s writing, that supports your contention that they don’t have a clue what that’s like, and that their conclusions are wrong.
Actually, I’m not sure what it is of theirs that you’re objecting to – is it because they are among the hold-your-nose-and-vote-for-the-bill folks?
You may just be making a leap based on articles not referenced here. But the Reichs piece linked actually finishes by saying that the (perceived) trend of jobs at election time may be more important than the 10% figure. Doesn’t that agree with what you say about the time of Roosevelt? If people think jobs are coming back, they’ll stick with Dems; if they think they’re going away, they’ll bolt.
I don’t mean to be picking nits; just not so sure why you’re so down on Krugman and Reich. Seems to me there are lots worse out there. (though I have been disappointed with Nate Silver and Ezra Klein). Or are you saying that they don’t recognize the burden of the mandate, and therefore don’t realize how bad the bill is? In which case, I just haven’t seen their writings saying so, I guess. Can you link?
Krugman and Reich represent a too common trend of folks that have talked a good “progressive” game and then have caved to the Democratic establishment, just as all of the progressive congressman have done and will do again. The upshot of Cujo’s thesis is that these people would not now be preaching “hold your nose” politics if they truly understood the plight of the poor and middle class in this country. I think a lot of people in this country are actually watching what is going on in the government, especially Democrats with a small “d,” and I think they understand that the Democratic establishment is as sold out as the Republicans. I will do my part to spread the word.
Thanks. I was beginning to think I wasn’t making my point coherently.
Reich and Krugman are part of the elite intelligentsia. Both are well paid full Profs. at top Universities and Krugman is a Nobel prize winning col. for the NY Times with many books as well. Reich is a past Cab. Sect. for Clinton so he’s sporting lifetime benefits on top of a cozy job at U of Calif Berkley. Neither gets anywhere near the world many of us have to live in.
Both are on record as favoring passage of the Senate bill, which to me was equivalent to saying that this was the bill they were willing to see as the final bill, with minor variations. Krugman might not be quite up to speed on politics enough to realize that, but Reich certainly is. That’s part of the reason, because it’s eminently clear that this is going to be a problem for the lower middle class, and of no benefit to anyone save the few people who live in states where the current minimum Medicaid cutoff is the threshold of eligibility and are below 133% FPL.
Here’s the Krugman article that really set me off, which I linked to in the 12/18 article. I also quoted it. For someone to go on about “soul searching” when he’s basically implying that we should just shut up and pay our last dollars for worthless insurance so that we don’t lose “momentum” and not bitch about that, one of two things has to be true: Either he really doesn’t understand what it is to live from paycheck to paycheck, or he doesn’t give a shit what our problems are. I think assuming the former gives him more credit.
Why I’m on about these two is that they’re the liberals – they’re supposed to know better. I’ve written as much at Krugman’s blog before, with no seeming response. Reich doesn’t have a comments section. So this is what I’m doing. These opinions are dangerous because they enable the things that people like Obama, Frank, Reid, and Pelosi are doing.
So that’s why I’m arguing. Everyone likes to point out how stupid the teabaggers are, and how unctious the Republicans are. I’m pointing out the stupidity of people who ought to know better, and I’m explaining in considerable detail why they’re wrong.
cujo, thanks so much for replying to my comments. I missed that 12/17/09 column by PK, as I was preparing for an emergency visit to my mother, and was off the grid(internet, that is) for th next ten days.
I sort of see why that “set you off,” although his rationale doesn’t bother me that much.
That said, I have to agree that none of the people in Congress, or most of the pundits, including PK, really appreciates how impossible it will be for those of us with incomes under what they consider middle-class ($50k? 60k?) to pay for the mandated coverage, or that we won’t be able to pay for care if we manage to scrape up the insurance coverage cost.
I honestly think PK tries to understand, but as you said in your linked blog piece, it’s hard for people who haven’t been there to comprehend.
I get set off when I hear (often, in many contexts), folks saying things like, “anybody can afford X”, or the “How to save money in the recession”pieces that start off with the assumptions that you buy lattes every day, or are not already carrying your own lunch to work, or that everyone takes a vacation away from home every year.
So, I’m guessing we just have slightly different reaction points. But I get where you’re coming from.
And I sure do agree that the 10% unemployment figure has somehow become a magical line-in-the-sand for political “experts.” Not sure why. Maybe that was a magic number in the past. But most of us know, as someone mentioned below, that the current UE number is way low, so we don’t really take it seriously.
Re: the 10 percent business – what’s so bloody important about it? It doesn’t mean squat, really, to anyone who is out there looking for a job, or who has a lousy one, if it’s 9 percent or 10 percent. That double figure thing doesn’t matter. It’s what the prospects are, and whether there’s a safety net, or some alternatives.
That might be the one thing I needed to emphasize and didn’t. But the ten percent thing is so meaningless as to be ridiculous. Why get hung up on that?
indeed
Thanks for this diary. I live in a part of the country that is somwhat divorced from reality, so it is always valuable for me to get a perspective on the economy from someone who has a clearer picture of the situation.
The Dems are a mess and it’s a basic fact of life that once a person obtains a higher standard of living they almost inevitably start the process of forgetting how things were for them and their class in more meager circumstances. The liberal intelligentsia is great at this.
“but often how one fails is as important as the failure itself.” ; very well said and very accurate as well. Recommended diary.
And a FWIW from a friend of mine:
“And glad to hear your have downsized to where you can live on the SS. That’s probably how I’ll end up – blew through my savings, retirement, real estate and now my home is upside down,too, so I may lose it. Renting from my sister. It took me nearly 3 years of serious, serious work to find a job, and I am now making less than 50% of what I made in 2006. It just sucks, that’s all you can say, and it is heart-wrenching to know that you are still looking. I know Sal Mxxxxxxxxxx finally got hired,”
Your friend’s experience is how it is for a lot of us, including people with what ought to be marketable skills.
We face a curious problem which has been building (without much public attention) for many decades. It’s that the agricultural model has disappeared and we are completely at the mercy of the banks & corporations for employment. That is part of why we are a center-right country. How can we not be when we have to kowtow to crummy bosses and the market?
That said, we haven’t entirely lost our voice. The unions were created with a very loud yell and we now have the Internet (and isn’t it a wonderful tool).
So, we have to find a balance between corporate power, to employ or not, and in the use of democratic power to push & pull them to keep this society balanced enough to run, much like two people in a three-legged race.
I agree with your analysis of the reasons the official government unemployment numbers are so far off Cujo. Which is why I don’t understand why you used 10% as the number to discuss in your article. Unemployment is far higher than 10% almost everywhere.
In California, where I live, the number used often as the “real” number is currently 23%.
My wife and I aren’t staying home when it comes time to vote next year. We’ll be voting FOR our Representative because he’s a Progressive…and we’ll be voting AGAINST Barbara Boxer because she voted FOR this POS health insurance bill and FAILED to stand up for a woman’s right to choose.
We’ll also be contributing time and money to get several ConservaDems ousted for voting FOR this bill. Anyone who thinks Progressives like my wife and I don’t have anyone to vote for other than ConservaDems, doesn’t understand the concept of “Payback Time”.
Unemployment is bad…but screwing the base on HCR is what will bring voters out for that “Payback Time”. Reich is wrong if he really thinks that screwing won’t hurt the ConservaDems at the polls.
It’s because that’s the number Reich used. IIRC, the “official” number, the one that everyone bandies about, is 10+ at the moment. It may dip a little below that in the spring or summer, but I don’t think it’s going to stay there for long unless something seriously changes soon. But that’s for another time.
To me, the best gauge is the U-6 number, which is the “official” number, plus many of the other people I mentioned – people who accept part time work in lieu of full time, people who have given up trying to find work, etc. eCAHNomics explained that a few months ago here.
The government routinely undercounts unemployment. I wouldn’t trust anything they come up with at this point.
In any event if you’re going to use a BLS number use the U6, which is north of 17%. This way you’re capturing people with law degrees working in Arby’s, or whatever. Plus the people who’ve simply given up.
More to the point about Krugman in particular not having a clue what it’s like to be poor: the man is the leading advocate for massive quantitative easing and inflation. Few government policies hurt the poor more than inflation. The poor, and folks on fixed income, like seniors.
Krugman has a lot of problems, but his recommendations causing inflation is not one of them. See here and related diaries.
I will have to read the diary you reference, but in the meantime – Krugman is all about QE. Slash rates, inflate the money supply and prop up asset prices. He’s on record on this, at least in his popular columns at the Times, back to the bursting of the NASD bubble.
The rates are already near zero. Now he’s mainly advocating a Government jobs program and further stimulus. BTW, this isn’t inconsistent with what he said last year. At the beginning of 2009 he called for a 1.6 trillion stimulus and insisted that the 800 Billion stimuls was not enough and was composed in the wrong way. He also advocated taking the big banks into receivership, getting rid of their toxic assets and then spinning them off. He was right on both counts. Obama, Summers, Geithner and the rest were wrong, as the results, or lack of them show.
Finally, as long as demand is slack Government spending won’t cause inflation. Right now inflation is the last thing we have to worry about. We have people to employ and a nation to rebuild, when inflation occurs we can raise taxes on the wealthy and pull the excess money back out of the economy. Right now, however, there’s too little; not too much.
Agree about the U-6. Unfortunately, it hasn’t been around that long (since the 1990s), so there will be times when it’s hard to compare with the past. I think the government uses the lowest number partly because it’s convenient – it’s the lowest number, but also because those other groups are harder to track accurately.
On Krugman’s take on inflation, I’m not sure what you’re driving at. Recently, he’s mentioned that the government shouldn’t worry about inflation, but that was usually because he didn’t expect that there would be much inflation, and the methods used to control that small or nonexistent inflation can do harm themselves (primarily by limiting employment, ironically).
He’s putting all his money on the ability of the FED to raise rates rapidly enough to slow the inflationary effects once banks start lending. right now, he is technically correct that price inflation isn’t a “problem” since the velocity of money is still so low (and given the disrepair of bank balance sheets, likely to remain so for sometime).
Yet the inflation of the money supply has already happened. The policies he advocates, the ones the FED and Treasury have undertaken deficit spending, QE, repurchases (hell, just plain purchases) are inflationary. Paul principal complaint as I understand is that they haven’t gone far enough.
Well, I’m admittedly a bit at sea here, but it sure looks like the money supply that those of us who aren’t in the finance business work with hasn’t changed all that much. All that extra money seems to be headed for that big sucky sound in the vault of the Fed.
Food prices are going up, but they were doing that anyway. (Thank you, ethanol.)
That may become a big problem at some point, but right now it seems like the only thing that’s keeping the economy from regressing is the added government spending. Which seems to be Krugman’s point when he’s complaining about “not enough”.
We have 2 highly dysfunctional political parties. I expect the voter theme of upcoming elections will be “a pox on both your houses”.
I’m expecting voters to continue to throw out incumbents from both parties.
The Republican are not showing the slightest interest in solving the job&housing crisis.
The Democrats have ideas but… the blue dogs and limosine liberals within the party have been gumming up the works.
I think there are several things sinking the Democrats. Obama ran on change we can believe in and virtually everyone in the electorate knows that he and the Democrats didn’t deliver on that promise. Voters could see time after time, not decisive action, but plenty of diddling and dithering, and backroom deals to special interests galore. You don’t need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind is blowing.
The trillions that went to the banksters remains a sore point. Compare this to the petty ante programs for homeowners and the unemployed. Everyone can see what the Democrats’ priorities are. Unfairness rankles, and that was about as unfair as it gets. The healthcare bill may not take effect for a few years but here again the American may not know the details but the overall impression is that the corps made out like bandits so I see it as a negative as well.
Also look at the electorate. The Democrats have done everything in their power to alienate their base. Young voters and first timers are being turned off in droves. Conservatives and swing voters disgusted with Bush and company and willing to try the Democrats are unlikely to do so again. It will be interesting to see too what the unions will do. They have been as burned by the Democrats as anyone but most seem incapable of breaking with the party with which they have so long identified.
Reich’s economic analysis in the article cited is superficial. I understand the point about Krugman too. Cujo expresses it very well in that they don’t share the visceral reaction to what is going on in the economy that those directly affected feel. These and others like Roubini I find very frustrating. They will lay out an analysis but not follow it to its logical conclusion. Instead they will take it so far and then revert to the mean, and the mean for them is the Establishment line.
Sorry to go so long. If you look at what Reich is saying. It is a typical kind of mishmash. Overall he gives a 90% chance for unemployment to remain high (a 100% if you figure in his last little quibble) but somehow doesn’t come up with the result that the Democrats are doomed. At the same time, he gives a 70% chance for the economy to be in some kind of a recovery through next year. Perhaps this is what bothers Cujo. It certainly bothers me. Those two conditions high unemployment and recovery just do not and can not go together.
A final note, I have said that there is a strong likelihood for stimuli only for political reasons they will not be called stimulus. Obama’s $200 billion jobs program funded by TARP is such a creature. I expect a lot of this to be flubbed. I am dubious about tax credits for small businesses. These might keep such enterprises afloat for a while. They might retain some jobs in them but I don’t think they will actually lead to much new job creation. The Fannie/Freddie deal is as far as I can see a way of keeping the current housing market from collapse without fixing any of the problems from the bubble and its bursting. And there will be a supplemental bill this year to fund the wars and pre-election goodies can be added to that. All of this is ad hoc. There is no coherent strategy or sustained commitment. I don’t see much of it lasting beyond the election. What Krugman and Reich (and many others) are not paying attention to is that what growth has occurred in the economy has all been the result of government spending. The private side remains stalled to contracting. So if and when government spending diminishes for any reason or just doesn’t offset the contraction on the private side, that second dip will hit.
At the same time, he gives a 70% chance for the economy to be in some kind of a recovery through next year.
Yes, that did bother me. It strikes me as overly optimistic. The best scenario I’d expect is more-or-less flat growth this year. Not much in the way of “recovery”, certainly. They just haven’t fixed what’s wrong yet, and without lending, how do new businesses get started? How do old businesses expand or make big changes? Just basic common sense, really.
I could be wrong, of course. People much more knowledgeable than I have been wrong about economies, and the “idiot” in “idiot savant economist” is there for a reason. But it’s just hard to believe things are going to get substantially better, when we haven’t controlled our militarism habit, haven’t been building enough new infrastructure to even make up for the last decade of neglect, and still have a dysfunctional financial system.
Oh, and did I mention we’ve shipped a metric buttload of our manufacturing jobs to China?
Anyway, that bothered me, too. I just didn’t want to confuse the narrative. Possibly, that was a mistake, too.
Don’t forget the Dems’ fabulous treatment of women [in the health care bills] and their long list of broken promises to the LGBT community.
I’ve been wondering recently if Obama and Rahm think they can put together a political “coalition” consisting of African Americans ['cause I don't sense much discontent there], Latinos [note that "immigration reform" is next on the "to do" list] and enough “oh, but Palin would be worse” bots to assure they remain in power.
There’s a shitload of the base that’s been thrown into this all-too-crowded area under the bus. I hope they/we don’t skip voting in 2010, but devise some meaningful way to demonstrate that we’re out here — but we’re just not voting for lying bastards.
That’s what I favor. Not voting is unilaterally disarming. If we can use those votes to do some good or make a point, then that’s better than sitting on our hands.
PaulaT had a diary up yesterday suggesting we all write in Howard Dean.
I saw that. I’m hoping we’ll have more effective ways to use our votes, but that’s not a bad plan B.
“Not voting is unilaterally disarming.”; accurate and I will take this oppoortunity to remind people that the Repubs do NOT want people voting,especially those who feel deprived of the ‘good life’.
I’m an independent and vote for those -regardless or party or whether they ‘have a chance of winning’- becuase that is what voting is supposed to be about.
There are candidates from third parties that might fit one’s perspectives about proper policy; vote for them whether you think they can win or not. Such DOES send a message to the Dem’s and Repubs.
BUT even more importantly, work for public financing of campaigns because the ONLY way to break the current situation is to minimize the impact large corproations have on the political process. You’ve already been shown the disregard by multiple Presidents and Congresses that the ‘right to petition for redress for grievances’.
In fact regarding the First Amendment:
“First use
The first[6] significant exercise and defense of the right to petition within the U.S. was to advocate the end of slavery by petitioning Congress in the mid 1830s, including 130,000 such requests in 1837 and 1838.[7] In 1836, the House of Representatives adopted a gag rule that would table all such anti-slavery petitions.[7] John Quincy Adams and other Representatives eventually achieved the repeal of this rule in 1844 on the basis that it was contrary to the right to petition the government.[7]
And ,as you can see from here, such petitioning doesn’t often result in anything but repression from the government.
Also, I think there’s a complexity to the “stalled to contracting” that needs to be explored — to see just how difficult it’s going to be to “get consumer spending started again.”
First, there are the millions who have no job. Only the most limited, subsistence spending on their part.
Second, there are the millions who are fearful of losing a job, or who’ve just found a job after a lay-off. They’re going to be spending as little as possible, saving for the next disaster.
Third, there are those, like myself, who willingly don’t spend. We don’t have much money, but I’ll be damned if I’ll spend it on “consumer goods.” I wish there were a way I could be sure that any spending I do would benefit those who need jobs, but I don’t want to spend on ANYTHING — both because I’m scared and because I’m angry.
I don’t see there being, in the future, some “winners’ day” on a cosmic edition of Wheel of Fortune, whereby dollars just rain down from the sky and folks can begin spending again. This is what I think Reich & Krugman don’t see.
Do you mean that you think they don’t see that, or they don’t see that we don’t see that?
What I really meant [sorry, it was late] was that Krugman and Reich don’t see “real people” and their struggles for jobs. [I think Reich has more of a clue than Krugman.]
They also don’t see the long-lasting emotional effect of unemployment, and the fear of unemployment, on consumer spending. I don’t believe those lucky few who finally get a job after months or years of unemployment are suddenly going to spend [as though they won Wheel of Fortune]. So Krugman & Reich’s apparent belief that if you get “improving” employment numbers, you’ll be on the road to recovery, I think is too optimistic.
I feel like these two “economists” are looking at some hypothetical models: first employment improves, then people start spending on consumer goods again [and buying houses], and voila, all the problems go away. People are scared — and scarred – by this experience. They also look around and see that both
** lots of things that used to be provided via their tax dollars [like decent education for their kids, even at the pre-college level; decent libraries; parks and recreational facilities in their neighborhood] are no longer there; they’re going to have to spend even MORE of their meagre income for them; and
** the “safety net” that government — or even charitable institutions — used to provide is no longer there.
Who’s going to pay to go on vacation, or buy a jetski [or "snow machine"] with that sort of fear in their heart?
I don’t see how this article or many of the previous comments trump Robert Reich’s words, or Krugman’s vast knowledge of modern economics. I appreciate a progressive agenda here, but I’m not sure I want to take Kujo’s words over either of the aforementioned. Also, with all due respect to other commenters, why is being a prominent professor of economic subjects a disconnect from economic reality, even yours. These people are far more attuned to what’s going on every minute of their professional lives to what you and 99.9 percent of Americans are capable of understanding. Let’s give them some credit since they are good people (on our side) and try to learn from them, especially if they can pay their bills and live with some comfort.
PS. I do agree that the economy is worse than reported, but that’s NOT due to Krugman’s or Reich’s advice and I’ve seen them critical of the admin’s steps on dozens of occasions.
You’re right to be skeptical, and for that I don’t blame you. I’ve just shown why I think what I do. It may or may not be convincing.
As I wrote a couple of comments ago, plus in the article, I can’t take my opinion too seriously. I certainly can’t trust it in the way that I’d just naturally trust Krugman’s or Reich’s or any of the other people I mentioned in the article.
Still, sometimes there’s really no way to know why people feel the way they do, or act the way they do, without experiencing some of it themselves. Actors know that. One of the things they’ll often do to prepare for a role is to be around the sort of people they’re portraying for a while. I think Hugh expressed that pretty well toward the middle of his comment.
I know what my personal economy is like, and what it’s likely to be like, far better than any of those people. Most of us do. When people tell us things that we know to be not true in our case, it tends to make us skeptical. And, as I wrote in the “12/18″ essay, if you’ve never been there, you have little idea what it’s like to be there. If you don’t know what it’s like, you don’t know what you’re asking people to give up.
And if you’re someone like these folks, who have big, influential columns, I’m going to keep telling you until you get it.
Most economists were cheerleading the very factors that led to the housing bubble and the meltdown. These are the folks who never saw what Dean Baker calls an $8 trillion housing bubble. It is hard to imagine a profession more thoroughly discredited than economics is right now. Out of all economists, Baker and Jamie Galbraith probably have the best records with regard to what has happened. Even Stiglitz initially thought that markets would self-correct or held in check by regulation.
Reich just isn’t that heavy duty in his understanding of economics as his article makes abundantly clear. Krugman for his part has been wrong on subjects ranging from free trade, to the TARP, to the oil bubble, to his defense of Bernanke. I thought his whole long saltwater, freshwater economics article missed the point by casting economic theory into one of two schools when both committed serious errors.
I would point out too that the left blogosphere is not predicated on how many letters you can write after your name but the quality of your ideas and how they stand up over time. We actually have several people here at fdl who have written on economic subjects, myself included, who have much better records for getting it right than either Krugman or Reich.
It’s not about authority, it’s about the quality of the arguments. Cujo is saying that the reality for people beyond the statistics is one that engenders real anger at the unfairness of the system and that Riech and Krugman don’t fully appreciate that. Also, on the economics of the thing, both Reich and Krugman have written in the past about the possibility of a double dip recession if the Government if the Government doesn’t reinforce the stimulus with a strong jobs bill. They don’t express extreme pessimism because both want to be taken into the Administration to help craft the policy intitaives that will make a difference. But both have said that if there’s nothing further out of the Government to provide jobs and reinforce consumption, there’s a very good chance of a double dip. So Reich’s 70% needs to be viewed not as a deterministic prediction, but as one that assumes that the Government won’t be acting like Herbert Hoover did. Perhaps a forlorn hope.
Both Reich and Krugman confirm everyday what I have said about Economists, even though Larry Summers did it well before them, and is proof one of the biggest dangers to this Country are our Economists.
These people were the advisers to President’s, the Congress, the Fed, to business, to the markets, and told them we were all not only doing fine, but on the right track. Never has any group of people in the History of the world been so wrong. Why anyone would listen to them today is mind boggling.
If being wrong wasn’t bad enough. We have had some time now from when the housing and then the Banking crisis’s broke, and not one Economist has told us how to solve either problem. Their advise has and is being listened to, and yet we are no better off for it, and won’t be in the future.
One common man with an ounce of common sense is worth a thousand Economists.
I respect the people I’m criticizing, actually, and I respect what Krugman in particular has done to become a professor and win a Nobel Prize in his profession. His credentials and experience count for something, but I won’t just assume he’s right if what I see in front of me says otherwise.
Economics isn’t like physics or chemistry. There aren’t a bunch of fundamental laws that can be expected to always be true. Plus, even in physics, you have to know which laws apply in a particular situation, or else even if you carry out the calculations to ten significant figures, you can still be spectacularly wrong.
And, as in every science, there are going to be some sellouts or cranks who manage to have opinions that are useful to folks with lots of money.
So, I respect them, but there will be times when I respectfully disagree.
I don’t respect Krugman.
I tried to get in contact with Him several times and He was above answering Me.
Like most if You don’t praise Him, You are dismissed.
Men should be judged on their minds, and actions, not degree’s and awards.
You explain quite well why we are in trouble. You explain why Reich is wrong. But why are guys like Reich and Krugman providing Helicopter Ben, Geithner and Summers cover?
I have only seen Krugman be critical of Bernanke once and that was recently and fairly mild. As Krugman has said, he got his job at Princeton through Bernanke and feels endebted. I don’t think Krugman is that supportive of Summers and Geithner but there seems to be a code of politeness in economics so that even when their actions have been flatout criminal Krugman simply won’t call them on it. I was writing on this today over at Naked Capitalism that these are not well meaning people who got the policy wrong. Capture implies an intent to pursue policy detrimental to the public for the benefit of private and special interests. Reich I don’t know as much about. I think he didn’t get a job in the Obama Administration because he was too liberal for them. I admire his emphasis on jobs but his economic analysis is lightweight and based on pretty Establishment oriented thinking.
Actually, I think there have been two or three times. I remarked on it a few weeks ago. I was starting to think the bloom was off the rose, so to speak.
I commend all the bloggers here at FDL. But I worry that some of the arguments come off as angry and discount many who are not with us on every issue. The level of knowledge here is impressive and it’s always more effective when delivered evenly. Still, a very lively discussion and article. Cheers.
If I don’t have a job come November, that’s all the info I need on unemployment.
I hear that.
Very good, very accurate post. Agree that 2012 will be the real Democratic killing field, with elected Dems dispatched by the voters in droves.
Amazing the sheer stupidity of these people. But I guess a lack of conscience often coincides with a lack of perceptive skills. Or a lack of perceptive skills coincides with a lack of conscience.
Prediction: when the voters revolt, Dem politicians and pollsters and campaign apparatchiks will all say, “no one could have have predicted.” It’ll be there domestic political equivalent of 9-11.
That’s when I think it will hit. Hugh thinks it will be earlier, but I think that presupposes that progressives and others can get it together enough to effectively support or not support people this year. I’m more pessimistic about that. But by 2012, things look to be really sucky, and for that to have an effect you won’t need much organizing.
I’d like it to be earlier. Success would mean Republicans won’t have to finally disavow their batshit political stances. It will mean that some parts of the Democratic Party will see what can happen when they don’t throw the base a few bones. It means we stand less chance of having an all Republican Congress in 2012.
And in case you aren’t familiar with my predictive powers, the more pessimistic I am the more accurate I become. (I’m hoping to break that string one day.)
Cujo, didn’t say it above, ’cause I was too busy responding to comments, but this is a wonderful diary. Thank you.
It is a good diary Cujo,
but you may not know “idiot savant” is considered pejorative and has been replaced by the more precise “autistic savant” – it’s not something I expected to see at FDL
‘k, thx, bye
The phrase I used evokes the image I was after. It refers to the old idea that idiot savants were only good at doing simple calculations, not doing high level abstract mathematics. It’s an outdated concept, I think, but gets the point across. I’m not referring to autistic people here, except as much as they’re included in the broader class of people who aren’t economists.
Every term for a mental handicap becomes pejorative in twenty years or so, so I suspect we’ll have to learn a new term for “autistic savant” before long.
again dahlin’ I really got your point, I know you aren’t some ass indifferent to offending anyone – just that term has caused all kinds of pain for many in the autism community which includes some firedogs
and, it’s a damn fine diary :D
peace
Yes, great piece, thank you.
If the potential Democratic voters stay home, they will be poking themselves in the eye with a sharp stick or cutting off their noses to spite the Democrats. Not voting will insure many Republican victories, which will insure that things get much worse for those who are already hurting. The only jobs Republicans have created in the past fifty years are for propagandists who will speak and write about how wonderful it is that a few are getting richer while thousands of others are dying. They must do are two things: first, get out and vote for a third party in very large numbers to make it clear that they are done with with the two-party-one-result system of American politics. Ralph Nader and Howard Dean are both viable candidates. Second, as many as can must unite and march filling the streets and offices that are home to a lawless, corrupt system. Sitting on their collective asses and doing nothing insures a victory for the monsters and slow agonizing deaths for many decent Americans.
Okay, I should have said: “the only jobs Republicans have created in the past ten years… “
The argument that the Republicans will somehow be worse for us than these Democrats gets less compelling by the day. In all the areas I touched on, plus in the rule of law, the use of excessive or unconstitutional government powers, and in warlike behavior, there is little demonstrable difference between the two. To me, actions speak much louder than words, and the Democrats’ actions are becoming virtually indistinguishable from the Republicans’ actions when they were in power.
Best thing I’ve read here in a long time.
great diary, btw. Thanks.
Oops, hit send before saying, again, thank you. I do think your piece is excellent; I just was sort of missing some of what was behind your thinking.
Back during the primaries, Krugman showed his hand when he wrote a kajillion op-eds excoriating Obama for opposing mandates and only one that criticized McCain’s plan. Today, the focus of his ire is on those dastardly leftists who willfully refuse to join the cheerleading squad for the watered-down corporatist bilge coming out of Congress. Not the insurance companies for refusing to budge on their anti-trust exemption. Not Big Pharma for refusing to allow reimportation. Not Stupak and Nelson for holding up the bill because they want to make sure they can sniff womens’ panties. Not Lieberman. Nope, it’s the dirty hippies (who have no ability to pass or kill a bill that I’m aware of) who get his scorn. Same with Ezra Klein, Joe Klein, Nate Silver, and the rest of the Villager horde. They have clearly been coopted and have no interest in challenging powerful institutions. Their next task (Ezra has already started) is to convince us that taxing union health plans is the apex of progressive achievement.
Their next task (Ezra has already started) is to convince us that taxing union health plans is the apex of progressive achievement.
I’m surprised he doesn’t come out against the progressive income tax, tell you the truth.