When I was a philosophy grad student in the ancient times at the U. of Virginia, some over-smart logician pointed out to me that voting is not rational, since a single vote is never decisive. It’s all the other stuff that’s rational: appearing to have voted, applying a sticker to your bumper, registering voters, making phone calls — because all of that stuff has the potential to spread sufficiently to make a difference in the election, or perhaps in a future election or in other forms of civic engagement.
But, of course, unlike the model “persons” in philosophical or economic mental experiments, actual people tend not to be sociopaths. Pretending to vote without voting is far more work than actually voting, which — while it may be irrational — does no harm. And so, good citizens tend to vote even understanding its irrationality, and even when there are no candidates worth voting for.
Some smart friends of mine argue for a particular type of quasi-rational voting in such situations. Because of our antiquated electoral college that pretends an entire state voted for Tweedledee even if 49% of it voted for Tweedledum, moral voters should, this argument goes, vote for truly good candidates — even write-in candidates — in most states, in order to send a message. But they should only do so because there are too few such informed ethical strategic voters to actually swing the state. In the all-important handful of Swing States, however, where the contest between the two Tweedles is too close to call, we are advised to vote for the less hideous of the two.
This is a difficult argument to face down. It seems to leave the vast majority of us free to vote our consciences, while requiring that those of us with the (mis)fortune to live in the states that count are required to grit our teeth and do our civic duty. No matter how godawful the less-evil candidate may be, the other one is more evil and therefore worth resisting. This is not a time for self-indulgent purity. Lives are at stake. Mr. Less-Evil will kill a great many human beings through war, climate-crisis-aggravation, and misdirection of resources, but Mr. More-Evil will kill more people faster and bring on the risk of complete catastrophe faster. Ergo we have no choice. Suck it up. Vote for the occupier of brown countries who’s not the racist.
If elections changed anything, said Emma Goldman, they’d be banned. Policy-driven independent activism is far more important. We can make that case. It’s not who’s sitting in the White House but who’s doing the sitting in, said the late great Howard Zinn. But some of the people making the above argument for letting the electoral college determine who you vote for are also leaders in-between elections in independent risk-taking creative nonviolent activism. I’m thinking of people like my friend Daniel Ellsberg.
But that’s just it: the people who manage to think this way tend to be few and far between and usually worthy of Nobel Peace Prizes, if those prizes were still given out for — you know — peace.
People, as a general rule, do not function as the theoretical sociopath who could pretend to be a voter and not vote. This is why employers have begun instructing their employees to vote for Republican candidates. We have secret voting. An employee could act as if he or she were going to vote as instructed and then vote for someone else. But many employees will not draw sharp lines in their minds between the employer’s threat to fire them and the employer’s false claim that electing Democrats will require firing workers, any more than they will draw sharp lines between sticking a Romney sign in their yard and punching Romney’s name on a voting machine owned by one of Romney’s companies. When employers hold mandatory anti-union meetings, their intimidation and propaganda mix. Some workers turn against a union out of fear but tell themselves it’s a strictly strategic choice; for most it’s probably a combination of the two. The same will happen with mandatory pro-Republican meetings in the workplace.
The number of registered likely voters with a high enough level of information to vote strategically by state is probably too small to swing any Swing State. This is a sliver of the population that understands the truth about the less-evil candidate (i.e. his evilness) but is willing to urge others to vote for him (one vote makes no difference, remember; they must urge others to do likewise for their action to be worth anything). They must then immediately or even simultaneously devote themselves to a movement of resistance to that candidate, and open their minds to information on his or her ongoing crimes and abuses, information that is not helpful in campaigning for them. For, without that resistance movement there is no way to break out of the downward spiral that gives us ever-worse lesser-evil candidates. We can choose the less-evil one each time, but if next time they are both more evil, some other tool is needed for positive social change.
And here we come to a second key factor that our rational strategists fail to adequately reckon with. The problem is not just that people are irrational, or that I am giving them too little credit in terms of their ability to become rational. I do think people overwhelmingly IDENTIFY with candidates and parties and begin to self-censor their intake of information and their expression of disagreement. They become fans instead of participants in self-government. But, beyond the people, there are the organizations. A movement that can fix what ails our politics cannot be driven by organizations, think tanks, labor unions, activist groups, and media outlets that identify with and seek patronage from a party or an elected official.
A couple of years ago, AFSCME, a labor union that had favored nonprofit universal single-payer healthcare for many years, brought a bus tour to Charlottesville, Va., to hold a rally for something called “the Public Option.” Whatever that was, it was not a demand that had originated with AFSCME members or any other group of ordinary people outside of our government. The rules for the rally were laid out ahead of time: speakers and posters that favored or mentioned single-payer were forbidden.
This year, President Obama came to Charlottesville, and a number of us handed out flyers and held up posters outside the entrance to his event. We discovered that the crowd going in did not support policies such as his “kill list” assassination program. Rather, they had never heard of them. They had clearly gone to great lengths to avoid major news stories that would have occupied their attention and their passions were the president a Republican.
In considering how we deal with elections, we cannot avoid dealing with the way our activism and its funding and its communications work year-in and year-out. Do we become hopelessly compromised? Clearly, there would have been a greater chance of creating a single-payer system had we not censored the demand. Clearly, there would have been a greater chance of winning the pathetic “public option” had the demand of people in the streets been for single-payer, and had the “public option” become a compromise. And clearly the positive bits in the atrocious corporate giveaway that was passed in the end would not have suffered from a full-throated movement of greater size and clarity demanding healthcare for all. What did us in, in this case and thousands of others, was not lesser-evil voting in an election, but people and organizations acting as if they were doing lesser-evil voting even when there was no election.
Half the country does not vote. Most of the country has no idea there are truly great candidates like Jill Stein and Rocky Anderson on the ballot. Some activists are urging people to not vote, in order to “send a message.” But half the country doing that has already failed dramatically to send any message for many years.
What might do some good would be to vote for a good candidate, whether or not you’re in a Swing State. I understand that you could then be blamed, and not without cause, for the election of President Romney and all of his evils. Truly you would have to be irrational to face that risk. But being blamed for something is hardly the greatest risk our current situation demands of us. Many of us will have to face far worse if we are going to prevail. The case for casting your irrational vote for someone like Jill Stein is not that they are likely to win (and completely unconnected to whether they will “spoil”), and not that your one vote will put them over the top, or that the votes of others you recruit will do the trick. The reason to vote and campaign for a good candidate is that we need to build an independent movement that’s honest, that doesn’t self-censor, and that supports candidates or elected officials who come to us — rather than us running to them. We also need a movement that makes reform of our electoral system a central part of our agenda. It is very hard to work for electoral reform properly if we are devoting ourselves to acting within the broken system. The Swing States are where the action is. Backing good platforms in the 38 states from which all candidates and journalists have fled misses huge opportunities. A national movement devoted to protecting lesser-evil officials in Swing States will behave as a fan-club for those officials in-between elections in every single state. And the fact is that electoral work for lesser-evil candidates drains huge amounts of time and energy away from other projects for the Ellsbergs among us, no matter how much good activism they do for three years out of four.
We desperately need automatic voter registration, just as we have automatic war draft registration. Door knocking could then be done on behalf of peace and justice, which — after all — are far more popular than any Duopoly candidate. We need to break out of the notion that electoral busy-work created by anti-democratic legislators counts as activism — and in fact amounts to the complete array of possible activism. We need access to vote, access to placing names on ballots, access to media, and to debates. We need free air time for qualified candidates (for a limited time period!), a ban on private spending, an end to the electoral college, and verifiable counting of paper ballots where they are cast. We won’t vote ourselves any of these things. We will only compel them through the true array of activist tools: educating, organizing, communicating, boycotting, blockading, marching, rallying, interrupting, mocking, mobilizing, inspiring, shaming, and struggling our way forward. Women did not vote themselves the right to vote. Nobody elected us workplace rights, environmental protections, or a safety net. We moved the whole country through policy-based movements that often involved moving third- and fourth-party candidates.
I once turned down a chance to run as a Veep candidate on a truly great ticket, primarily because I want to redirect attention away from personality-change politics to policy-change politics. But I had other reasons. I didn’t want to offend half my friends and allies. Again, people are not rational about this. They take sides, identify with those sides, and passionately oppose the other sides in a mental space that does not divide itself along state lines. Additionally, I confess, I didn’t want to make myself unemployable in an activist world where I know of no organizations with any funding that agree with what I’ve written above. But just imagine if that ceased for a moment to be the case. Imagine if the labor movement, cast aside by President Obama like a cheap mistress, didn’t respond by dumping more hard-earned pay than ever into his election effort. Imagine if well-meaning people and groups took one election cycle off. The money saved could create a television network, a newspaper, a team of investigative journalists, and a grassroots organization, all of them dedicated from here on out to a nation in which every person has the right to a living wage, full education, full healthcare, a sustainable environment, peace, and civil rights. Wouldn’t that be worth something? Wouldn’t it have been valuable to have those things when Bush was president? Wouldn’t it even — admit it — have been nice to have those things these past four years?
In my view, the severity of the militaristic and climate crises we face recommend my strategy over lesser-evil voting. I’m not proposing utopia. I’m proposing merely daring to to dream of human survival.




130 Comments

A critically superb post, David, thank you.
I hope that this diary might be front-paged, as it deserves nothing less, in fact, the community of Firedoglake deserves nothing less.
Recommended to the conscience and consideration of everyone old enough, and “permitted” enough, to engage in the “process” of voting … which is about much more than merely pulling a lever or simply making a check-mark … as has been made more than amply clear in this exceptionally fine and important essay of David Swanson’s.
DW
To my mind, David Swanson, ‘irrational’ is continuing to vote for either of the legacy parties and expect beneficial change in policy for ourselves, the planet, or the nations we wage war upon.
Rec’d.
And to my mind, good folks, to paraphrase what Pascal once said, “the heart has its reasons which reason alone does not and will never understand.”
Vote with your heart!
Automatic voter registration and voting by mail, both.
All the little pragmatisms get together and breed and, fed on their main diet of election season angst, grow exponentially; choking out all other life forms.
Half of the country does not vote and half of the half that does vote, the GOP, is over-represented in Congress because of the demographic reality.
Ironically, the reverse result may occur from this demographic reality in the POTUS election. Obama looks to lose the popular vote and win the electoral college if he narrowly carries the West, upper Midwest and East while losing the Southern and lower midwestern states handily.
The half of the half isn’t going to disappear anytime soon.
And be brave enough to look past this election toward the day when we aren’t captive to two corporate parties who disregard us except during election time, when promises are so easy, and voters are so willing to believe them.
Do read letsgetitdone’s post on what the ACA really does…and doesn’t do. He did some major homework, as always, and the conclusions are startling, imo.
Great logic as always.
I loved this part:
Those in swing states have the most leverage in regards to expressing their conscience through voting. No one will care if Johnson gets 10% in Utah, or if Stein gets 10% in California. But if they could do half that in battleground states, then that’s a game changer.
The number of independents in those swing states are higher than the rest of the country for a reason: that’s where the highest discontent of the two parties occur. If the electorate were rational, then this is where 3rd parties would be most popular, not the least.
Forcing voters of those states to do the exact opposite is fundamentally undemocratic and authoritarianist.
The Ds & Rs know this, which is why they are scared to death of us and is confirmation that we are on the right track and doing the right thing.
I tend to vote with my head, and it leads me to the same place as many here!
Great post, I agree about it being on the front page.
For most people in “The Box” the box is a very comforting place, most people in that situation aren’t voting for anything more than protecting their “Box”. It’s particularly evident in a state like OK where candidate mailers and position papers that are practically photo-shoped copies of each other with esoteric changes as party, name, church membership, outside of which there are no real substantive differences, but no less passionately than the equally inane Sooners/Cowboys controversy.
The only difference I have is with mandatory voting, in my opinion that would make little difference without other major structural changes. Almost all the non-voters I know (granted its anecdotal) see voting as meaningless as nothing gets done for them and both parties give rhetoric to populist needs while serving only the oligarchs. 50% don’t vote (or by non-voting voicing the none-of-the-above sentiment) a 75% non-turn out would mean 12% would provide the landslide mandate in this closed system of oligarchy.
Precisely. That is one great reason I have for voting for a Socialist for president this election.
In Ohio. I know a few others, not the least of whom is Dan LaBotz, the Socialist candidate for US Senate in 2010, who got over 26,000 votes. So it was only 0.69% of the vote. An independent, more Libertarian(I think) candidate got 1.31%. The combined total is 2%. In a close presidential election, 3% of the vote going to third parties requires notice in a swing state.
This year, there are 4 third party candidates for president on the Ohio ballot: Libertarian, Green, Socialist and Constitution. Rocky Anderson and his Justice Party didn’t make it, probably because the Secretary of State arbitrarily moved up the filing deadline to prevent others from making the ballot in down-ballot races.
All of those parties, BTW, want to end all of the wars yesterday and believe American troops should not be committed abroad without at least congressional approval or at most a Declaration of War.
Anyway, between them they have the potential of garnering up to 5% of the Ohio vote. Whether there are enough voters like me in Ohio who will truly vote their consciences no matter which more hideous evil we may get, we shall soon see.
I don’t know the third party situation in other swing states. But if just one throws off the PTB’s calculations, then at least a message is sent that there are a lot of Americans who find our electoral system totally inadequated and in desperate need of replacement by something much more representatively democratic.
If the amount of money spent in this election doesn’t turn people off, nothing will. It is obscene and I keep thinking of how many families it would feed and house. Until we get money out of politics nothing else will matter IMO.
Voting for the “lesser” evil candidate is just a goddamned excuse to vote for an evil candidate. I’ll have no part of that.
Prognostication has a habit of following desire. It seems most true during political campaigns.
I believe it’s called wishful thinking, which is pretty widespread all around the globe.
Mr. Ellsberg’s plea left me cold. The Democrats have been lesser-evilling me for more elections than I care to remember. It’s always going to be the end of the world if I don’t vote for their increasingly poor excuses for candidates. President Obama was the straw that broke this camel’s back–no more, not ever again. I’m disgusted that I didn’t abandon them years ago.
And if those combined parties, who hate war, manage to combine their five percent and flip the state to Romney how do you think that is going to play out with a candidate who is advised by John Bolton and Dan Senor? Anyone?
Elections have consequences, but you guys keep telling us about that castle in the air you’re building and “sending a message” while the rest of us live with the results of your navel-gazing narcissism.
Book Salon up with Sophia McClennen’s Colbert’s America: Satire and Democracy hosted by Remy Maisel
The most irrational “voting” would be for all progressives to join the Republican Party and become as active as you can, operating on the slogan of Taking back the Republican Party and citing Teddy Roosevelt and Abe Lincoln and the progressives in between.
Republicans were the ones to create the Land Grant colleges. Republicans were the ones to envision a robust national transportation system in the railroads and then national highways. Republicans were the ones to bust the trusts. Republicans were the ones to demobilize the Army.
Republicans seem to like to win no matter who they run or what the results are. Neither Bush satisfied the Republican Party, but Republicans never abandoned either. A radical faction did reject the Republicans in 1992 and supported Perot, but after that elected Clinton, the reentered the Republican Party to change it. They did not decide to remake the Democratic Party because Democrats are not committed to winning at any cost. Progressives should fight for control over the Republican nominations to get progressives selected in the primaries. Once you have a progressive Republican nominee, the Republican Party will do everything to elect the Republican.
Look at Romney – Romney is model for Obama and now Romney is trying to be Obama, the one who will bring change by continuing all the failed policies of both Bushes, taking America back to the days of the progressive Republican party in the golden era of TR
And Republicans are the home of the most anti-war, anti-imperial, America First political block led by the iconic “dangerous” Ron Paul.
Elections DO have consequences, TBogg.
You imply that Obama will NOT engage in a war with Iran, is that not correct?
You tell us that the lesser evil is “better” … that voting for “more of the same”, supporting a President who claims the power to kill anyone of us, any time and any where that it might suit him without due process of law, will be the “best” thing which we all may do.
You tell us to support a President who is using drones, in direct violation of international law, engaging in secret and “endless” wars that DO NOT benefit the people of this nation in the least.
Yet those things are consequences which already exist, and from those things will arise further consequence … which NONE of us may fully anticipate.
You tell us to support a President who has done NOTHING to hold those who destroyed our economic system, throwing millions out of work and out of their homes … and this President who you insist that we support has made plain that he will cut Social Security and such small protections as the “safety net” yet afford the many.
The President you tell us to support has articulated no plans to seriously address the despair of many and, in fact has plans to increase the misery of the many.
Yet you say that there is no choice.
And that, TBogg, IS precisely the issue.
Relative to that utter failure, that the people are provided no real choice of actually bettering their society OR their future, whether the issue be war, peace, life, or death … and that failure signals an ongoing assault upon actual democracy waged by the legacy parties for decades.
What substantive “difference” on environmental concerns is there, really, between the legacy parties? And you do know what Obama has said regarding “fracking” for natural gas and drilling for oil, one imagines?
On an issue I asked you about, the other day, as you profess to be much concerned about democracy, I shall repeat here. What do you think about the “consequence” of the arrest and “detaining” of Jill Stein and her running mate?
What thoughts, if any, have you in regards to what happened to Stein and Honkala?
If you are the champion of democracy that your concern with “pragmatism”
makes a wee bit questionable, then how do you square your notion that things are, and will be, “better” under Obama with the evidence of what is actually happening on Main Street and other streets in this nation?
Or, are we to forget and ignore the evidence that daily reminds us, even at night on The Daily Show, that Obama intends to extend and expand the policies and plans of the administration which held power before his own, even to the extent of ignoring both torture and the fact that the “war” in Irak was begun on the basis of lies … BY some of the very same people you warn us against?
Perhaps you might lift your gaze from wherever you have stuck it sufficiently to take note of a few of these “consequences”?
DW
Mr Bogg, here is what I think will happen: I vote third party, Obama gets elected (due to the stupid electoral college system) and then appoints Mitt Ronmey to the Supreme Court. Or vice-versa. So?
I try to stay flexible, but I do have a few personal rules. I do not vote for murderers, and I do not dig my own grave. Think of it as a tiny bit of resistance theater on my part, but there it is. Who knows? Perhaps some day some Great Recorder will check up on me. And I will win.
Yea, but dontchyaknow all Republicans have cooties and are smelly goo goo heads? Political Tribalism RULZ!!!!!!11111
/s
PS Romney is an ass, and I hope he goes away, but this incessant adolescent high school cliquish manipulation every four years annoys the hell out of me
If McCain had “won” the presidency, would anyone in Congress have prevented him from having his own personal Toozday Extermination List? Or at least tried? Given him a little grief for droning terrorists/freedom-fighters? Defended citizens against his unAmerican wish to have the ability to disappear anyone, Americans included?
I wonder if the exit polls will equal what NBC and CBS tell us are election results.
Obscene is the right word for all the money spent on this bullshit kabuki when citizens are starving.
If you can’t see the difference in saber-rattling regarding Iran between Romney and Obama, then bless your heart, you’re a moron. The absolute idiocy of your argument is that you exclude the very real fact that you’re going to either end up with either Obama or Romney …and then you pretend that Romney and his policies don’t exist. Obama is going to do something to the safety net! Sorry, who? Paul Ryan? Never heard of him….
You speak, of course, about Ms Stein and her little friends publicity stunt of getting arrested for blocking traffic to gain attention for her vanity campaign? Yeah, that’ll knock Martin Luther King’s Letter from Birmingham Jail right out of the fucking history books. When the election is over, Stein will go back to her comfortable white lady upper-middle class life and, if she gets bored again, she can plan yet another campaign that she won’t win because, to Jill Stein, running failed campaigns is no different than scrapbooking. She’s a hobbyist who likes attention, but not so much attention that she is willing to disclose her personal finances, because transparency is for other people.
And four years from now the Green Party will float yet another savior who will make people (this time!) take them seriously. I wouldn’t let the Green Party supervise a community garden…
You are only saying that both parties are about the same. I don’t think Romney is a peace candidate or that he will ground all the drones. That is magical thinking. And in some contexts is dangerous. So too is the idea that maybe Romney won’t start a war with Iran but Obama will for sure. I think it is exactly the reverse but who can prove this?
But to me there are some real differences. To me it goes to what Romney and Ryan will do to harm all sorts of things from SSMM to education and women’s rights. There are others.
SHUT UP!SHUT UP!SHUT UP! Dronez!!11!
Tribalist Obot fascist…
Oh forgot about that. I can hear them coming to the door now. Fuck.
We’ve been hearing for 4 years that the President “isn’t a king” and “doesn’t have a magic wand”, and the D’s “didn’t have 60 votes.” If Romney is elected and even if the R’s take the Senate those things will still be true.
On most policy issues (war, drilling and fracking, austerity, a “security”/surveillance state,”free” trade agreements, privatization of public services) the R’s and D’s now have more in common than they have differences. Given the supposed constraints that we’ve been told exist for the President and Congress, even for Congressional majorities, why do Obama/Dem supporters think Romney and the R’s will be able to deliver any “sparkle ponies” further to the right of these common policies when Obama and the D’s were able to deliver on the left?
I’ll vote for Jill Stein for pretty much the same reason I’ve voted for D’s. Her proposals seem like good ideas that woul
d be good for our country and planet. She may not have the ability to deliver, but neither did the D’s, according to their supporters, and the D’s aren’t even bothering to say most of those things are good things any more.
If Romney is elected, and the D’s decide to obstruct the worst of his policies, maybe they can earn my vote in 2014 (and no I’m not in the “make things worse so they can get better” camp, I think that’s ridiculous), but I don’t think the D’s are likely to take up that challenge.In my opinion that doesn’t equate to a reason for voting for them – we have to vote for them because they won’t fight for us?
In the meantime, maybe if there are enough votes for left-leaning third party candidates, the D’s will see some advantage in being D’s, or other voters will see that other options exist. If not, then both D’s and R’s, in whatever combination they win the election, are going to implement so much bad stuff that we’ll all be amazed that we spent as much time as we did arguing about degrees of evil. That’s what we should be prepared for.
edit 2nd paragraph “D’s were unable”
About the PS, I didn’t mean you DW. I was just riffing
Time to mow the lawn
“Elections have consequences….” Absolutely. The consequence of every national election in my 45 year voting history has been to move the window to the right on foreign (i.e. war) policy and on domestic (i.e. civil rights and care of the less fortunate) policy. More or less depending on the situation and the party. But always in the same direction and at an accelerating rate of speed.
We’re all going to hell on this railroad. Maybe it’s time to switch the tracks.
You know Mary, I feel your pain. I really do. But this sameness of the two parties was absolutely planned by the DLC when it was formed in the eighties. Those folks thought that a left wing party could never win elections. In fact they showed they could not win. We’re they wrong? So they tried to form a more centrist left party, something like the so called blue dogs. If you don’t get all you want should you let the jerks on the right win? Voting for Jill Stein does just that and gains you nothing. Obstruction is a losing proposition by definition. Better to be in control.
I’m voting Jill Stein.and my only reservation came when I realized how impressive Rocky was when watching Amy .If my vote could throw the entire fucking election ,I would still vote for Jill .
After reflecting on the great George McGovern ,I would stick a gun up my throat and blow my fucking brains out before making a cowardly vote for a DLC brand of corporate republican .
Everyone knows the pain is coming from these neoliberal toadies ,and I rather have it delivered with overt speed than via gradualism and stealth .I would rather fight and die than be enslaved by these feudal kleptocrats .
Thank you David ,a great post .
I’m off to a hockey game but the move to the right has something to do with votes. Gotta think about that. So what tracks are you moving to and did any of the right wing move with you?
Hey bluedot12@31,in control of what ?
Instead of abusing thinking people who have decided how they are going to vote, why not use some of that energy to motivate large number of people who don’t vote? If you can energize enough of them, you won’t have to worry about the navel-gazing narcissists whose minds you’re not going to change anyway.
David Swanson should thank you for just proving one of the major points of his very well-done post.
I’m just pointing out the obvious. I, however, won’t thank you for where you and your lesser-of-two-evils ilk have led us over the last few decades.
How DARE you accuse me of navel-gazing narcissism when your even-worse acceptance of an unacceptable situation has led to the deterioration of the standard living for myself, my family, my friends, and my neighborhoods? You do far worse than navel-gaze, you help perpetuate this parasitical political and economic system we live in.
How dare you mock those of us who see what is inherently destructive with capitalism?
How…oh, just bugger off. You’re not worth it.
How about this, TBogg, as you rather nastily suggest that voters be held to account and “blamed” for the “consequence” of whoever has power … suppose YOUR man wins, as likely he might, do you not consider that YOU should be held to full account, and chastised, publicly and repeatedly, WHEN Obama does engage in continuing war … including a war with Iran?
When Obama signs the Bowles-Simpson “deal” which the Democrats will, with unanimity, pass in Congress along with “sweet” incentives for the plutocrats …
When Obama ignores further economic assaults by his buddies, the bankers, and places in power, in the cabinet, in agencies, and on SCOTUS, individuals who will also bow down to money, even as they make further mock of the Constitution and democracy …
When Obama encourages the violent closing down of OWS and the spineless and self-serving Democrats in Congress pass even more restrictions on the rights of the people (HR 347 is NOT forgotten … nor forgiven, here) …
What all your righteous anger comes down to, is merely your conviction that we are not intelligent enough to determine our own conscience and what best may secure our well-being, security, and happiness, isn’t that so?
Frankly, TBogg, you “represent” the very same “perspective” that cautioned the founding fathers of this nation to renounce their desire for self-determination, to back away form a somewhat more meaningful democracy in favor of an oppressive, arrogant, and tyrannical “status quo” … you obviously presume to suggest that any who do not follow your “lead” are the “effin’ retards” that Obama, Emanuel, and even your own sweet self, have termed, as I have seen you do, those who rationally and reasonably disagree with your “take” on things.
And your disdain for Stein and Honkala, and for many of us here, speaks most eloquently of your real regard and appreciation for actual democracy … you do NOT want people to participate, instead you want everyone to follow your “lead” … and when others do not, then you rise up in high dudgeon and display your true authoritarian purview.
You’ve no real interest in honest discussion or serious consideration, for your mind, such as it is, is already made up, and woe betide any who might have the unmitigated effrontery to challenge your views. A behavior stunningly akin, let it be clear, to that displayed by the Republicans whom you deride for their insistence that their “followers” do not think or consider things for themselves, who stupidly, herd-like, rally around violence, hatred, greed, and hubris and whatever they are TOLD to “believe”.
That is not how the Democrats whom I respected in my early youth behaved, and they would be just as appalled as I am at what the Democratic Party has become, “stands” for, and countenances … they would be disgusted to see how Obama behaves and his ready willingness to destroy the New Deal and civil society.
Frankly, I don’t want the Democratic Party, as it now exists, to control the destiny of this nation any more than I want the Republican Party to do so.
And, as those parties collude to keep any other ideas “off of the table”, which perspective your comment suggests that you clearly support, I am increasingly wondering what your role at FDL, as a front-pager, actually is … to act an unpleasant shill, or simply to be a self-righteous polemical scold?
DW
Praise TBoww! Only He understands that the journey of 1,000 miles begins with but a single step, and that that single step should never ever be taken because it is far better that 5 billion certainly die in 50 years lest 10,000 maybe possibly probably might perish tomorrow. Yea verily, reading from The Droopy Stache Book of Basset Breath, also learn ye that faithfully repeating the same failed strategy with loving devotion will eventually lead to the proven future success of Growing The Fuck Up, which unfortunately can currently be found in its pure form only in the dim recesses of the internet’s most vivid accusatory imagination.
I’m not “letting” anyone win, any more than people who vote for Obama are “letting” Jill Stein lose. If Romney is elected and does bad stuff, that’s not the fault of people who didn’t vote for him. Or looking at it in another way, if Obama is elected and does bad stuff is that the fault of the people who voted for him?
I try to be reasonably open-minded about LOTE voting, I’ve done it myself in the past, and will likely do it again. But some of the reasons given for it don’t always make sense to me.
Great comment, jest!
edit: “likely do it again in other races.”
(Standing ovation). Kudos, DW. Now THAT is a most righteous rant.
Outstanding comment.
Hey DW@37 ,very nicely done .
Let me explain it you this way…
I can almost 100% guarantee you that I will do better under a Romney administration than you will. Having said that, I care enough about women, gays, sick kids, the environment, old people, military familes and the middle class enough that I will cast my vote for the one candidate of the only two who stand a chance of being elected who would best serve their interests. You, on the other hand, are more interested in your own butthurt and a desire to feel righteous. “I’m voting for Jill Stein because I live in a red state and my vote won’t matter anyway” How. Fucking. Brave. Of. You.
If you guys want women to have less choice, defund Planned Parenthood, roll back healthcare for kids who previously didn’t have any, more war in the Middle East, opening up more federal land to strip-mining and oil exploration, voucherization of Medicare, guaranteed destruction of the social safety net(Paul Ryan, anyone?), two trillion more in defense spending, and giving that wealthy 1% you’re alway whining about even lower taxes, because you have some long term plan to create a Unified Progressive Party twenty or thirty years down the line then “hurray” for you. Because, for people who profess to love their fellow man so fucking much, you sure want those same people to endure a lot of pain while you guys try to figure out a way to cleanse our political system.
It’s not enough to call you wooly-headed narcissists. You’re self-absorbed assholes who are no better than Mitt Romney on his worst day. At least he has a profit motive…
Thanks for the profanity. Now I am at liberty to say, TBogg, you are a paragon of arrogance and stupidity in one package. How efficient of you!
Throw out all of those special interest groups, as you yourself refer to them, then brazenly say we must pick from between two candidates who will serve none of their interests very well, and then self-righteously denounce those of us who disagree with you by calling us selfish narcissists.
You ignore far more important interests–our standard of living and our very way of life, and by “our” I include the bottom 90% of all Americans in terms of wealth, which is a far more numerous OUR than yours.
A running dog lackey of the fascistic oligarchical regime, you are.
Well, the problem is that these ideas come up WAaaaaaaY too late in the election cycle and most Americans, as long as they have their daily bread are too goddamn lazy( after a hard day’s work at Walmart) to get up and organize a bun fight.
We DO have a third party , called the Tea Party which is about as legitimate as the Monkey’s were as a band.
I want to squash them first on my way to talking my country forward out of Neo Feudalism.
First things first, I say.
I don’t want women to lose all the rights I fought for in the 70′s and become baby making machines for the 4th Reich’s wars.
Sorry, but I’m voting Democratic all the way downticket, becasue it’s the best that’s offered me right now
Let’s have this conversation in the week after the “election” when the big boyz are coming after the social programs, HUH?.
Swanson, you’re great, I like your ideas, but they’re going to take a revolution and American isn’t there yet
Thank you Mr Swanson. I quite agree.
FWIW – I love Tom Bogg’s blog & heartily enjoy posting there often. But I happen to disagree with your take here. I would like to think that like minds can agree to disagree with respect.
I plan to vote for Dr Stein fwiw. I cannot vote for Obama. He does not represent MY interests.
Best to all.
Ohio Barbarian wrote:
This! Exactly this! You are right on the money OH Barbarian.
I am sick and tired of the relentless march to the right over the last 30 years being facilitated by DLC apologist appeasers crying about the lesser of two evils.
Fuck your lesser of two evils.
I live in Wisconsin and I already absentee voted for Rocky Anderson. If Obama loses in Wisconsin because of third party candidates, so be it.
It’s interesting how the mods will let him literally say anything and not be permanently banned, isn’t it? I wonder why not…
Cute. But I think you missed my point. The move to the right has everything to do with the DLC neocon takeover of the Dem party, and the now complete corporate purchase of the government. Which means that no matter which way people vote the country moves to the right. Get it? No matter which way you vote, R, D, S, G, or whatever, the country moves to the right. Pepsi or Coke? Jiff or Skippy? Of course they’re different.
My top four issues as a citizen are environment, international human rights, domestic civil rights, and poverty not in that order. How much have heard from Barry or Mitt on any of those?
My top personal issue is health care. I have a diabetic daughter who will need strong healthcare coverage her whole life. The Obama pre-compromise sell-out of single payer to corporate interests was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. His appearance on national teevee stating his continuing support for the public option when he had already bargained it away was contemptible. Lousy negotiation and worse politics. He caught the rest of the country up to what Mitt had already done in Mass. That’s leadership? As things stand my daughter’s educational, vocational and avocational interests will be constrained by a fragmented HC system that costs 40-50% more than European systems for worse outcomes and drains 20-30% off to middleman greed and dead weight inefficiencies.
Now, to be fair, there are people for whom I have great respect who agree with you. Ellsberg and Cornell West, for instance, have both expressed the pragmatic decision to support Obama and start opposing the corporatist agenda on November 10. Most of the “progressive” blogosphere will make strong, last-minute appeals to us not to “waste” our votes, especially if we live in a swing state.
I disagree, and it’s not a matter of obstruction.
You enjoy your hockey game. I’ll vote my conscience.
Great issues, Adams. Do please read the link to letsgetitdone’s homework on the ACA fails I left at #7; I wish Mr. Bogg would, too.
It shows it for what it is, and what it is not.
You see, by saying that neither candidate (with the implication that both candidates and their policies are completely indistinguishable from the other )will serve the needs of (your laughable words) “special interest groups” like women and seniors and kids, well, you just look like a hyperbolic fool. You’re doing the same thing Bartoo does: ignoring the Romney in the room because it inconvenient to your argument. Fail.
But here, your won words again:
Seriously. Explain to me how your righteous third party vote is going to impact the lives of “myself, my family, my friends, and my neighborhoods” in 2013. 2014? I guarantee you that Dr. Jill Stein and her doctor husband are going to be a lot warmer this winter in their Lexington home than you and your neighbors will be. But, as Obama recently said: “please, proceed”.
As for this:
That throw-back to the sixties is why you guys are both sad and hilarious, but mostly sad.
Keep it groovy, Ohio Barbarian.
This version of OBomba is one that is foreign to me, Mr. Bogg. It causes me to wonder if you live in the same bubble he does; the one in which he’s like the nurse who coos at us while he smothers us with a pillow, as one wag brilliantly said.
This is President Frack and Drill; President Never Mind Climate Change Clean Coal; President Subsidize Nuclear Power Plants (pay no attention to fixing the dead and leaking ones in the corner). President ACA ‘Insurance Payments to Industry is Health Care’ (do read my link at #7 if you will). President I’ll give medals to the folks who made deals with Wall Street Mortgage Fraudsters who screwed The People; President I’ll Kill or Detain Anyone I Fucking Feel Like and Call It National Security; President I Don’t Torture But Rendition for Torture is OK if I Call It ‘Short Term’.
Who the hell do you think this man is? And please believe me when I say that if any Congress passes laws overturning Roe V. Wade, the women of this nation would be in DeeCee with pitchforks and guillotines to spare. So that one I call bullshit on.
And yes; I’d agree that you, like one other diarist here, are the recipient of two-tiered moderation. I don’t agree that it should be so for either of you. At least management tells the other man’s story under American occupation as a reason. Can’t imagine what the justification is for one such as yourself.
My feelings about the source of irrational voting:
http://www.theamericanhuman.com/2012/10/the-civil-war-isnt-over.html
Excellent logic, David. I’ve never found a good way to describe what happens when we get an Obama or a Clinton, and all the people who say they are, for instance, completely with me on single-payer just disappear, or worse yet, try to shut me up.
Your last paragraph was shockingly sobering.
I’ll add, in fact, that to guarantee survival that irrational choice we make will have to be for an international party that sticks to the same principles everywhere. I don’t know how that will come about, but we have to give up our fondness for national, paternalistic, authoritarian parochialism and see ourselves as citizens of the world. With a very few exceptions in my entire voting life, I have never cast a ballot or worked with a political party that did not have an international presence.
David, you’re the best Virginia has to offer. Thank you for everything.
Sorry, I can’t find an edit button and shouldn’t have tried posting after a glass of wine. I mean with few exceptions, I don’t cast a ballot or work for a political party that isn’t represented internationally.
Thanks again, David . . . I hope there’s a space in this madness where we can begin organizing for single-payer again.
Thanks. I read it, of course. But, still, LOTE.
I get it, too. But I’m old, and tired, and sick of the game. I pulled almost all $$ political support out this year and instead support organizations that work for causes I believe in. The whole political system is irretrievably corrupt, and getting more so. Barry really did me in.
I have read it. Summed up it is:
No duh. But how does he plan to get his ideal version passed? He doesn’t say because … well, he’s a big picture guy not a legislative sausage maker.
ACA is far from perfect but it is a start. The Social Security we have today in not 1935′s Social Security. But as people come to appreciate the impact that ACA has on other people’s lives there will be more public clamor for more inclusion. That is how things get done. Nobody snaps their fingers and a massive social program appears in a puff of glitter and smoke.
letsgetitdone’s post is a marvelous example of the phrase “Perfect is the enemy of good”. Learn accordingly…
Droopy grifter haz a sad cuz the Romney in the room has no opposing party to reign him in. He has a happy cuz no mod will reign him in.
So what you’re saying is that things will be better under Romney.
Because, after all of your bombast and hyperbole, it’s going to be either Obama and Romney.
After leaving aside all of Ohio Barbarian’s “special interest groups”, which candidate is going to be best for you?
Obama
or
Romney?
And, to save you time typing, “they’re both bad” does not answer the question answer.
Someone has to babysit
That is not what Pascal said. ['Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait point.' From memory, but considerably more accurate, I'll be bound.]
To edit and alter quotations is not a good idea.
Who cares? Not everyone requires a babysitter.
Only the ones who need Jill Stein to tell them stories to keep out the cold light of day.
Jest- I second your second of David’s point (and entire post) and your elaboration.
The resistance to the uniparty needs to engage where it will force change. Drawing the line in the non-swing states is drawing a Maginot Line.
The other point that brought me up short, “women didn’t get the vote by voting for it”.
Ok hon, have them bring you back by 11:00 at the latest.
No, the rest of us have been living with your “lesser-evil” strategy, and where has THAT got us?
Allow me to thank you, fella, for helping me understand how I’ll vote. I was actually wavering a bit on my commitment to Jill Stein in FLORIDA, but you have made things clear.
I want nothing to do with the “community” of voters you represent and will follow through with my vote for Stein… in FLORIDA.
I’d be inclined to say you are “fucking retarded” but that’s what Democrats do…
I hope it works out well for you and your family. The Romney years have so much potential but at least you’ll be able to say: “I certainly showed that Tbogg guy. Ha! I win. Now whose turn is it to eat tonight?”
Let’s see about 3rd parties…
Rocky Anderson – Hasn’t filed an FEC document since June deadline, and demanded to be included in the debates? Laughable.
Jill Stein – managed to file the September filing date. OK good so far. But never filed a personal financial disclosure. Hi Willard! You got good company!
I won’t blame you 3rd party voters. Never have in fact, never liked the blame Nader crowd when it was the SCOTUS that fucked up 2000. And I won’t blame you in 2012.
But what I do say is this:
Voting Prez tickets is not some Holy Fucking Eucharist that you get to beat others over the head with.
If you can’t wrap your head around the concept of choosing whom you’d like to oppose in the Whitehouse, where it’s been shown you can influence Obama; see DADT and so forth, you know those special, special, tasty and delicious special interests.
Presidential politics is about actual, you know, POWER, and if you want to be all dilletantish about dancing around power, then fine.
Be Dilletantes To Your Hearts Content. That’s What You Greenies Have Been Doing For The Last 30 Years To My Knowledge And Are Doing Today.
For those who want to explore this question from a different perspective try :http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/
Arthur Silber is always challenging and, IMHO, brilliant.
Not recommended for TBogg.
“Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” … Albert Einstein.
We have been voting the LOTE over and over again for quite awhile now. Time, perhaps, to note the insanity of it. Where it has brought us is, indeed, insane.
“Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.” Albert Einstein.
That second quote is for you, Mr. Bogg.
“Navel gazer – excessive and useless contemplation of oneself”
There isn’t a single contributor on FDL’s boards that fits this description, good sir. I compassionately conclude this is a symptom of said insanity, incurred by the doing of the same thing over and over again.
It is unquestionably Romney given a choice of those two. IN the game being played, Dems will start to oppose stuff. The tea party in the house has been the biggest ally to liberals in opposing all efforts at a “grand bargain”. We simply won’t notice any difference whatsoever were it to go from Obama to Romney just as it passed from Bush to Obama. IT’s your business to vote for Obama. Go for it. To criticize people for voting for third parties or Romney if they think the dems will miraculously find backbone and oppose some stuff were Romney to win. It’s a sham all of it. Obama, Romney, third party votes all make sense which means none of them make sense. And your vote for Obama is just as nonsensical as someone else’s third party vote. Taper down the arrogance a tad.
Well, Mr. Bogg, I’ll continue to suffer with either of them, but that’s sincerely not my focus. I have children and grandchildren whose futures *do* matter to me.
What every fiber of my being tells me is that what’s most important is that we stop the Tyranny of the those plutocrats who rule us almost completely now…who have shown us that the Constitution is just considered a quaint document now…who have shown is that they are fully prepared to stop massive resistance to their rule by an insanely burgeoning security state that is now close to achieving Total Information Awareness that most Americans don’t even know exists yet.
My vote won’t sway anything much, if it’s indeed counted, given the state of voting tabulations and hacking potential. But in the end, I’ll vote third party simply to not play into the same tired scare tactics we get conned into every four years as though there really is a choice.
I’ve run campaigns for Democrats just about every two years since I was twenty-five; sat on Central Committees, gone to Democratic State Conventions as a delegate thrice; walked a thousand miles knocking on doors for Dems; and almost never worked on a winning campaign. I’ve campaigned like a fool for true populist candidates who won the caucus votes, only to have the DLC come in and destroy their chances in primaries.
Yeppers, this year I switched my affiliation to Independent, and will never hold my nose and vote again. I’m putting my main energy into OWS and the coming Spiritual Insurrection and revolution, and will leave behind partisan politics as irrelevant and useless.
Bombast and hyperbole aside, of course. And no, ACA was not some step in the right direction; it was OBomba negotiating with himself in an industry gift at our expense. As was his administration making sure that no meaningful financial regulation (or should I say ‘re-regulation’) was permitted to pass.
Lordy, if I had the dough-re-mi, I’d send FDL a hunnerd bucks just for that line.
As, is, I’ll just say Wow.
There is such a huge disparity in the way different people read things here.
I’ll leave you with Another Saturday night and I ain’t got nobody…
Yes, Arthur was pretty brutal, wasn’t he? I’d have a few quibbles, but…
X2.
It’s not arrogance. I just find people who choose to cut off their nose to spite their face to be unappealing to say nothing of not being overly bright.
And I have a twenty-three year old daughter whose future matters to me and, if you ask her, she’d tell you that she is not willing to put her rights on hold while Progressives who can’t manage to get more than 2% of the national vote think they are going to door-knock their way to completely reforming our political system. But if you guys think you can get money out of politics, you’re going to love the guys Romney will put on the Supreme Court who think Citizens United is the greatest thing since sliced bread and slavery.
And, needless, to point out but not entirely unexpected, you didn’t answer the question.
I see a lot of that around here.
I’m somewhat embarrassed to admit that i agree with Tbogg about Jill Stein and other Third Party wannabes although i reject them for a totally different reason. There is no possible way for Stein or any other Third Party to change our corrupt system by joining it and hoping to move it towards a more humane position.
The only way to defeat this corrupt system is to stop supporting it completely and remove it’s mandate to govern us. The only power our vote has in a corrupt system with unverifiable counts and foreign tabulators is to withhold your vote and deny the tyrants that govern us your consent.
Tbogg and his ilk, a very large ilk, want everyone to submit to this tyranny while those who think that voting for a Third Party is resisting are still supporting the corrupt system, the results will be the same.
It’s also not very bright, but is very arrogant, to believe you can consistently misrepresent people’s positions and then use those misrepresentations to criticize them — and get away with it.
Preach it, DW (standing on chair clapping)!
I’m sorry. Pointing out that your concern for other people does not actually extend to having to make a choice that may impact their lives over the next four years or better because you are too busy organizing for the 2032 elections where you hope to reach (with any luck and a strong wind behind you) an unheard of 8% of the vote (high five everyone! woot!) was very uncivil of me. I was not aware that some of you might feel embarrassment. My mistake.
I deeply and without reservation apologize from the verybottom of my heart. Honestly. Truly….
C’mon everyone, let’s all sing Imagine together. That always fixes everything…
A pointed analysis. I have yet to decide what my vote will be… 3rd party or a write in. On the one hand I am drawn to Stein and Honkala, because of their daring and their courage. My vote, should I cast it for them, would be to say…”Ok. you earned this, you got it.” But, my vote is, once again a protest vote… oh when will there be a candidate I can get behind? … I am seriously considering, since I live in a “red state”, of writing in “Mic Check” for prez and “99%” for VP. My vote is the only thing left… the question is how best can I use it to communicate my disgust with the whole of the system.
Lighten up, people, emobogg is just afraid and can’t think straight. NTTAWWTOC.
Oopsie, Adams. It occurred to me suddenly that you may not have linked to ‘Cabrera for President’. Aaaand…you hadn’t.
He’s scathing of anyone running for President, but spends some time on why OBomba really doesn’t do much in his elected job.
Regarding, “. . .“I’m voting for Jill Stein because I live in a red state and my vote won’t matter anyway. . .”
Well, I live in a blue state, Mass, and am voting for Stein. I don’t care for either of the front runners, for different reasons, and decide that the two of them won’t hold my vote hostage. In other words, each has a few disqualifiers.
There is a certain luxury of living in either a hard blue or hard red state. The outcome is predetermined, which frees up vote for essentially “none of the above.” Leave the soul searching for swing state voters, who really need to look further. That is, some disqualifiers may be more significant than others.
OTH a vote for Stein (or Johnson) adds to the total cast. That, in turn, slightly reduces the plurality of whichever of the two front runners wins. It is possible the winner might have less than 50%. I think deflating the WH just a bit that way might be worthwhile.
I wonder if the most significant difference between O and R would be in the choice between a loose cannon who will not run again versus a panderer counting votes and dollars for four years hence.
Manic progressive using ‘emo’.
Adorable, yet so lacking in self awareness…
Night everyone, time for dinner. Cage free chicken killed by a drone. Tastes like… freedom. And chicken.
We are not narcissists. Quite the opposite. Only narcissists are obsessed with winning at all costs, which is why you may want to look in the mirror.
The reason many of us are not on your side is because the progressive wing of the Dem party has been shown the door on countless occasions. Or do you have Rahmnesia on the subject?
If you show people the door enough times, eventually they will leave. And for some reason, you have the temerity to call this “narcissism.”
Second, your strategy has been tried in 2004, and it gave us Bush instead of Kerry. The Dems got spanked in 2010, and in the Scott Walker recall, which should have been a cakewalk. For all the talk of “YOUR CANDIDATE CAN’T WIN, LOLZ” your party has a lot to learn on the subject. In each case, losses were overwhelmingly caused by Democrats who voted for Republicans, yet you delude yourself into believing this dynamic does not exist, search for green boogiemen that do not exist, engage in character assassination, and promote a strategy that failed 8 years ago. If I’m going to lose, I’d rather lose with my principles intact.
The best you can do is completely ignore our rational counterarguments, which is your tacit acknowledgement that they are sound, and change to another tired cliched subject peppered with immature insults and profanity.
Third, this idea that Romney is going to turn the US into some gestapo is silly. “Obama can’t change the world, he doesn’t have 60 votes!!” But Romney will? How does this work exactly?
This bumbling buffoon can’t even run a campaign, but all of a sudden he’s going to turn into an evil unstoppable political genius who can magically pass bills without 60 votes or the filibuster?
Emo blogger thinking he’s not emo and therefore justified in accusing others of being emo…
Deplorable, and so lacking in self-awareness…
And speaking of chicken, when too much heat is brought to bear on him, he flies the coop. Tastes like chicken, indeed.
Well we won that hockey game, thank you. Someone said that the left is its own worst enemy. It tends to disintegrate when things are not just perfect. I don’t know if that is true, but judging by many of the Obama haters here I think it could be true. No, Obama is not a liberal. But what is gained by letting the right take it all? Did the right wing ever decide to just quit?
You mentioned health care. I wish we had Medicare for all. Didn’t get it. I’m one of the few who figure we need to work with what we got. Not repeal it like Romney and Ryan want to do. That act has a lot of good and Medicaid is often overlooked. Think SS was a great program when it was first passed?
And I know Obama is going to cut SS and Medicare. But those other fucks are going to make Medicare a voucher program and cut SS to poverty levels. They say no change for you perhaps, but the younger people under 55 will get screwed. That’s my children and grand kids who will be
War. Maybe Bibi will take us to war. But if Romney is elected, I have no doubt about it. But if we go to war, I trust Obama far more than the Romney Frank warmongers who screwed up Iraq.
I will agree the dems have moved right but that was deliberate. It started with Clinton. The leaders of the party decided years ago that a left wing party can’t win. So they try to stay near the middle or left. Maybe you figure the left wing is a winning strategy. Ok start your engines. But Jill stein, even if she topped the dem ticket, could not win, not in our neoliberal paradigm that we all believe in.
I had a similar reaction to the first debate. Barry showed no passion because he doesn’t have any. Except for the Grand Bargain, which his handlers have convinced him will be the legacy item that will blot out his failed ACA. But he can’t really talk passionately about the Grand Sellout; he has to use weasel words like “I won’t ‘slash’ SS ‘suddenly’”
So Dem voters won’t understand what he really plans to do. Except the ones who are really listening.
All that cognitive dissonance has to take a toll.
Empty, hollowed out automaton. That first debate was really ‘the night of the living dead.’ Hope Michelle had a happy birthday.
Electionboycott2012.org has some interesting analysis of why voting in a corrupt system is a losing proposition. We have few options to resist from the Belly of the Beast and this is the only one i can see as a possible solution.
We already know what the results of voting Third party or LOTE will be, more of the same, Tyranny.
I was agreeing with your post until you dropped that Drone Bomb about trusting Zero to handle his Iran war better than Willard. I guess this is a Liberal Worldview that submitting to Authoritarians is OK so long as the brand is D insted of R and the bombs are aimed at the Other.
I wonder how you will dissemble your submission when the Drones are circling your neighborhood and it was a D that sent them, you better buy some of that good ACA health insurance.
I just hope a third party fucks either brand of this fascist duopoly into a loss via spoilage .If the lesser-evil assholes haven’t learned this false-choice fraud by now ,the problem is psychological ,not intellectual .Vote for the moderate pub ,then in the name of bipartisanship ,”the adults in the room” place all the right-wing shit on the table in the guise of pragmatism ,and the center moves further into hard fascism ,also known as inverted totalitarianism .
Obama’s fi-fi twist on the scam is the self-negotiated compromise.The senate uses the filibuster to push the corporatist agenda while averting culpability ,Congress dodges its war powers
authority ,exec won’t declare it a war ,but when it comes to austerity to pick up the tab for banksters’ ‘losses and depleted revenues from them collapsing the economy ,bold leadership arrives to tell us”eat your peas motherfucker and adapt to the new normal”".
Only a fool could believe this vote show biz will make us safe and warm .Unless we can organize mass civil disobedience ,get a plan-b agenda ,and do it real fast .anyone not deluded by clinical denial knows this austerity- driven plunder will have a violent outcome .
At this point in time ,systemic fraud and tyranny trump any pansy-ass delusion of change from the demopublican political industry .
Yeah, I might have been able to see that had that movement had started a year or two ago, as happened in some of the nations where it actually had legs and nullified the meaning of votes. This close to E day? Can’t see the impact. I could see voting, but not in races you can’t like any candidate…that at least would show up in the numbers…
Too short an answer, but I’m for sleep.
Silber is way too challenging for most Americans. It’s hard not to see his brutal truth.
Someone who doesn’t agree with you is not the pure definition of ” not overly bright”. I know a ton of people voting for Romney who are in fact extremely intelligent people. Medical doctors, engineers with advanced degrees, my relatives, etc. There’s a lot of things going on in people’s lives that determine whether they vote for Romney, Obama, third parties, boycott the election. It is what it is. Your opinion is simply not that enlightened. At least no more so than anyone else’s opinion. I’m still contemplating third party but wayoutwest is starting to convince me of another decision.
Looks like the TBagger stepped away from jerking with his circle long enough to come over here and spread some of his phantasmagorical misrepresentations and fear-mongering.
According to the mighty boggler, Obama, the guy who has been fucking us over the last four years, is the only guy who can save us from the fantasical future menace of Romney, a guy who, if you strip away the election year rhetoric, is actually to the left of Obama on some things.
Yes, the one-trick pony speaks, and yes, there is fear behind his obnoxious and insulting manner.
Fear that if Romney wins he will reveal one and for all what a hypocrital putz he is as he preaches to his groupies with feckless abandon about that evil Romney doing exactly the same things that Obama did.
The Botcott Movement may have come late to FDL but has been spreading on the net for a longer time. We here at FDL seem to think that the world revolves around us old folks but most young people have never heard of it.
It is never too late for an idea whose time has come and anyone can join in anytime up until selection day.
We are going to be hammered with LOTE hysteria daily until Nov 6 so this is the ideal time to counter the “You Have No Choice” submission to authority and fear Mantra.
Elections have consequences.
30 odd years of reasonable and considered lesser of two evil voting,
has resulted in the practical elimination of the Rule of Law.
It has resulted in the practical elimination of the middle class, as well as any sustainable and meaningful system of social health and welfare.
This eminently reasonable political pragmatism that we have applied over the course of time, has moved the country and the world extremely close to what may now be an unavoidable environmental
disaster out of science fiction.
It has resulted in the popular embrace of wars of imperial conquest, and of human torture, economic suppression, remote-control terrorism, secret surveillance and the assassination of citizens as reasonable tools of foreign and domestic policy.
Elections have consequences.
We are living in that brief window of time when that can still be said to be the case. And its in no small part due to the political ‘strategy’ evangelized by people like this TBog character, that that window is shutting faster as a practical matter.
I think you demean the Teabaggers when you equate Tbogg with them, they were agressive and in the streets with their misguided protests. On the other hand Tbogg is defensive and submissive in his comfortable at home missives in support of the status quo. He only attacks those who resist the Authoritarians who he begs to keep him and his safe from the Others here and abroad.
Tbogg represents a large group of Liberal Chihuahua types who bark loud while craving the secutity of Paris Hilton’s purse and only respect the rolled up newspaper weilded by the Daddy image of their Authoritarian Masters.
Sorry, edit problem, I meant “TBoggler”.
As misguided and delusional as I think the average teabagger is, I sure didn’t mean to cast an aspersion against them as dastardly as equating them with the Boggler.
I’d say Dem leadership made clear where they stood in Chicago ’68. The McGovern loss was their self-fulfilling prophecy. And it’s been all downhill from there. They have always hated the DFHs and now Rahm and Obama have made it ok to say it right out loud.
Your position is clear. So is mine, I think. I don’t have time for more LOTE.
Arthur Silber is a master at articulating the inconvenient and unpopular point of view. It’s sad that he is not more widely read and supported. He’s an antidote when even FDL begins to feel a little, ah, conventional.
It’s too bad so many of us were convinced to return to working within the system after the Days Of Rage in ’68 showed us the true nature of the Dems. Phil Ochs exposed the true nature of Liberals but we ignored that lesson also and we are paying a huge price for that mistake today.
Obama proved that we could be fooled again but now maybe we have seen enough Myth and Illusion to wake up and attack this rotten system before it is too late.
I agree that this is the only way to produce tangible improvement. The entire system is structured so as to preserve the privilege and unaccountability of the elites: the courts, the legislatures, Municipal governments, law enforcement agencies from the local to the federal level, the education system, and of course the realm of business.
Ordinary people should pool together what resources and talents they have to increase their self-sufficiency as much as possible, to rely less on businesses and organizations outside their own community. We should strive to reduce demand for energy by pushing for greater public transportation, conservation, and reducing the need to travel great distances. Try to establish worker owned businesses. Cut back on non-essential purchases, particularly giving business to major corporations. This system does not work so it is time to stop participating in it and build an alternative.
I agree that dropping out of the current paradigm is the only way to produce tangible improvement. The entire system is structured so as to preserve the privilege and unaccountability of the elites: the courts, the legislatures, Municipal governments, law enforcement agencies from the local to the federal level, the education system, and of course the realm of business.
Ordinary people should pool together what resources and talents they have to increase their self-sufficiency as much as possible, to rely less on businesses and organizations outside their own community. We should strive to reduce demand for energy by pushing for greater public transportation, conservation, and reducing the need to travel great distances. Try to establish worker owned businesses. Cut back on non-essential purchases, particularly giving business to major corporations. This system does not work for the overwhelming majority of us so it is time to stop participating in it and build an alternative.
As one of the founding members of the NorthEast Impeachment Coalition in 2007, I watched the outrage, resolve and organizational fizzle so common to left-wing movements. But at the time, I certainly felt our passion and outrage and desire to take action was real. But where are they all now that the horrifying trajectory has continued and accelerated under the Obama administration? To be sure, we saw some of their like last year with Occupy, but their numbers and the momentum of the movement was weak with a Democrat in the WH.
I look around me, and most of the outrage among progressives and Democrats has given way to tribal support of party. As one of many examples, a NH Democratic Party county ‘elder’ visited me in my home a year ago to excoriate me for writing a column in the local daily paper calling for our Nobel Peace prize winning President to be impeached and tried as a war criminal for his exploits in Libya. He said he didn’t disagree with me, but that getting Obama re-elected should be my chief objective, and if I insisted on continuing to advocate as I was, I was no longer welcome to have anything to do with the Party or its candidates. I pity this position on the part of Democrats, and recognize its moral and political bankruptcy and futility.
To the matter of “Strategic Voting” proposed by Dan Ellsburg, like so many principled progressives, I’ve been wrestling with the question of how to respond to this election. Although there are some tangible largely social issue oriented differences between these two corporate, globalist, feudalist, police state candidates, I’ve come to believe that our cause may have a better fighting chance under a Romney administration to awaken the otherwise sleeping, apologetic, rationalizing left then hopefully a broader spectrum to civil unrest and action. Otherwise, we’ll as likely as not continue to sleepwalk into enveloping institutionalized darkness for generations.
I counter-propose that we never again support this ilk of stooge candidate/leaders. Those of us still holding to principle should set an example by voting our consciences, now and forevermore. Noam Chomsky suggests that the only force with a chance to effectively counter this madness is mass public opinion and protest. That will never happen under Obama, and by the time he’s gone, we’ll be fed the same ‘lesser of two evils’ BS on the next round, and more importantly, it may be too late. My experience is that, perhaps excepting on the most local level, both the electoral process and incumbency is so thoroughly corrupt and compromised that electoral politics is not capable of institutional or meaningful change from within anyway. Voting on the national level is not democratic or representative in any meaningful way anymore, if it ever was. So why dirty one’s own conscience especially for essentially meaningless symbolism.
I’m voting for Rocky Anderson.
A “perspective” observation:
In the time which I have spent here, at Firedoglake, now approaching some seven years, not once have I observed TBogg express the slightest concern for ANY of the many things that Obama has done that so worry, so appall the vast majority of those who comment on these threads.
Actually, not once have I seen TBogg remark on the unwillingness of the Democratic Party to oppose the excesses of George W. Bush.
Not once have I noted TBogg suggest that our society is under assault from within.
TBogg delights in implying that many will not support what he regards as “right”, telling those many that they are stupid, selfish, navel-gazing idiots. I wonder, however, if TBogg has ever, himself, actually stood up for, fought for, and spoken up for necessary change?
What bridges to understanding, to tolerance has TBogg built or helped build?
When it is not election season, TBogg appears to spend his time saying how stupid, how craven, how pathetic are those who follow the Republican line, indeed many or most of his posts, “off-season” consist of nothing except invective assaults on the “other”. Now, we are told that TBogg is a great humorist, capable of skewering the opposition in a single bound, faster than a speeding donkey, and stronger than the odor of one thousand camels … That may well be, in the opinion of others, though I confess that I have yet to see it or observe it.
However, when it IS election season, TBogg early expresses his ready frustration, the wearing-thin of his considerable “patience”, as he would have us believe … when confronted with the abject stupidity of some he encounters and their persistent unwillingness to see and embrace the light which he has shined so brilliantly and absorb the understanding which he has showered so compassionately upon them. At that point, he quite loses his perspective and launches into his patented invective in which profanity prevails, ad hominen dispersion commences, and everyone is expected to bow down, instantly to superior wit and the wisdom of the ages.
Yet, precisely what comprises this wit and this wisdom?
What actual experience does it reflect?
What understanding, compassionate or informed, does it actually suggest?
If the Democrats and Obama, can do and have done no wrong, if the Democrats, all and sundry are above ANY reproach, at all, or in the least, in the words which TBogg has shared with us,then what perspective do those words honestly represent?
Basically, TBogg “sells” us two things:
The Republicans are evil incarnate, their followers are stupid and ugly … and that we should be afraid of them all … all of the time.
As for the Democrats, such faults as they may have, we are NEVER apprised of, such failings as they “own”, we are never to be introduced to … we are to “believe” that they are superior on ALL levels and accounts, that they, and they alone, have our best interests at heart.
If the Republicans do it, then it is bad. (Which very often is true.)
If the Democrats do it (the very same thing), then it is good or, at least, acceptable. (Which very often is not true.)
Now, if I have missed some honest appraisal of the behavior of the Democrats on TBogg’s part, these several years, then perhaps he might show me the evidence of my errors … as might any of those who rally
(Odd, fingers must have slipped …)
To continue …
around him?
I would welcome such evidence for it would suggest a broader sensibility than now appears evident, a willingness to acknowledge a bit of our common and worsening plight … an understanding that the Democrats as well as the republicans have played a role in that plight, that it is not either “accident” or simply the “bad” Republicans, but a political culture gone amok with greed and selfish hubris … something that cannot be rectified by slavishly doing the same thing, time and again, but requires a bolder move, FROM the people, BY the people, OF the people, and FOR the people.
TBogg, despite his appetite for confrontation, does not strike me as a person who would seek to stand in the vanguard of the struggle for such change as that, for he seems most comfortable right where he is, right where we are, all together, in the midst of terrifying “consequence” which Obama AND the Democrats seem oblivious to, careless about, and unmoved to seek to change in any good or humanly sustainable fashion.
Thank you all, for the lend of your ears.
DW
Speaking of which, Adams and all other Silber readers:
You probably know that Arthur’s been very sick, close to dying a few times…and gets into pretty dire economic straits. He has a Paypal button if ya ever have a tenner that isn’t already earmarked to pay a bill.
x2. I now no longer need to reply to that sanctimonious propagandist.
Yeah, when someone calls me an asshole, I refuse to engage. And I think of the schoolyard “rubber…glue” jingle.
That must be a great relief to you. Although I was really interested in hearing how that protest vote was going to improve the life of you and yours.
I had to go find the question you say I didn’t answer, and it was this:
“After leaving aside all of Ohio Barbarian’s “special interest groups”, which candidate is going to be best for you?”
Apologies to the Barbarian, but I hadn’t read all the comments on this thread, or at least very carefully, so I dunno about that part. But what I tried to indicate was that it’s the wrong question, imo, for two reasons.
One is that neither of us has any idea how Romney will govern. We know what he says, and how ugly it looks, but then we know what fine things OBomba promised us, and what he delivered, both to the 99% as well as Wall Street and the multinationals, not to mention brown and black people over the planet. So…sticking myself into that absent calculation would just be a silly computation.
But the second reason is that even though I tried to personalize my answer when I spoke to the present dangers both men’s rule represent to successive generations, an individual should *not* consider only themselves and their personal gains or losses, but humanity as a whole, or even Americans as a whole.
And that’s what I meant when I spoke of OWS and a revolution of consciousness; the Awakening in which we really do start to understand that we really are, and need to feel, that we’re not such separate beings, or even separate from the planet, and we’ve been led to believe. Our interdependence requires that we begin to find solutions that can at least begin to move toward models that work for the greatest number of us, and the realization that material wealth doesn’t really provide satisfaction to our greatest inner needs as sentient beings capable of empathy, love, self-sacrifice, and knowledge that we’ll die one day, and we should live as though we know this.
When you speak of us ‘cutting off our noses to spite ourselves’, my snotty side wonders if it’s *your* face you feel we’re spiting, really. So much of this thread has been devoted to laughing at the puny power of third parties (especially Greens). But to mind, most all the third party voters here haven’t some great illusion that their chosen candidates can win in this cycle, but are declaring their choices as the repositories for votes against the Plutocratic duopoly.
At least the cowardly ‘pragmatists’ at the Nation magazine could admit to a host of the hideous things OBomba has committed before they endorse him.
I wouldn’t mind so much if people voted for O with their eyes open wide as to what they’re choosing, I reckon. It’s the folks who pretend that just to refuse to acknowledge the truth that caused me to comment to you.
I bet you wrote this and then stood on a table declaiming it to your cats. Don’t let the lack of applause on their part bring you down. Cats are assholes.
LOL! Back in the TPM Cafe days (never moderated one whit), an asshole told a great blogger there that she must have (or be) a ‘Golden Vagina’ (didn’t know the term, and I confess I can’t remember now what it means). But my response was immediately that all us women should form The Golden Vagina Club, which we did on the boards, and had a ball around. I forget the rules, protocols, dues, all that, but it was a hoot. ;o)
The Boggler comes back to emit a mighty mew and once again demonstrate his pathological lack of self-awareness.
“Protest vote”? So says the chump who is protest voting against Romney. It boggles your mind that someone would vote for something, instead of obediently supporting the team eh, Boggie?
If Obama wins, it will be a hoot watching your contortions as you justify his continual move to the right.
If Romney wins, it will be a hoot watching your contortions as you shriek at him for following Obama policy.
I fear bannings-a-plenty once word of this serfs’ revolt gets back to management. Look above the line and see who gets the regular column here. Hope I’m wrong.
Why do we have to keep hearing that carnard, “no third party can win” ?
Why can’t a third party vote be cast in the hope that if enough progressives withhold support the Dems will be forced to move back to at least center?
It has worked the opposite way for the Tea Party.
I’m sick of being hounded with red herrings. Voting third party is not inherently irrational.
Dis-enfranchizing yourself is irrational.
The third party vote is a protest vote, a way to garner leverage. Who knows, 3% might turn into 5%, 5% into 10%, 10% into 20.
Then you’ve got yourself some leverage, a place at the table. It will take time, but that didn’t stop the right wing, and they got there very rapidly.
The current system is thrilled to have dis-contents opt out. Why is this not obvious?
The way things are set up right now, no 3rd party can win because those 3rd party attempts only come out every 4 years and try to make a big splash on the scene and run for the presidency.
For a 3rd party to become viable and win, they need to be active, doing party building education, off year voter contacts, running for office in local races and generally working their butts off for those other 3 years in the election cycle.
Until then, they are mainly vanity exercises
Well, dakine, I consider that you are correct about ” … The way things are set up right now ..” And, it is the legacy parties, and NOTHING else, which or who “set” those “things” … “up”, so far as I am concerned.
Perhaps, the appalling experience of seeing the nation reduced to ruin for the many, of seeing civil society torn apart by the willingness of the legacy parties to “sell” their services to the highest bidder, bringing about “the best government which money cab buy”, election cycle after election cycle is a wee bit demoralizing … not merely for “the people”, but for those non-legacy parties which have tried, over a number of election cycles, to increase awareness and provide rational and reasonable alternatives to “more of the same”?
No doubt, you are fully correct that working butts off is vitally necessary.
I thank you for not calling anyone here “effin’ retards” or “stupid” and so on.
I consider your suggestion that voting conscience is mere vanity to be shortsighted and quite wrong, which of course, is simply my opinion.
It may well be that this time, in 2012, enough of a “tipping point” has been reached, has been experienced, by ENOUGH human beings, discussed with NO CHOICE, and with “more of the same”, that your advice will be harkened to.
A measure of the sincerity of the third party candidates and those who support them will become crystal clear on the day after this farcical Presidential election which, in my opinion, once again, is naught but an exercise in self-deluded futility, if IT is imagined that voting for either legacy candidate will result in meaningful and necessary change.
This time, in 2012, it is very evident that the Democrats and their angry shills are worried that they will not succeed in frightening many, a tactic of the Republicans, incidentally, into abandoning conscience that the many, individuals, might not be called names and held up to cheap and mendacious ridicule. The tide of such deceitful manipulation is turning, it is ebbing in its effectiveness.
You see no “progress” among those who seek alternative possibilities, while I see a hardening of resolve, a true beginning of actual understanding and intent.
Until the management of FDL says what you say, in your comment, I shall consider that comment to be but your own opinion, which opinion I respect as honest and considered, and NOT as reflecting the “policy” of this site, of not being a “hint” that dissent from your perspective will no longer be tolerated or countenanced.
Thank you for disagreeing with many here, respectfully and responsibly, for it reflects YOUR conscience and your courage.
Namaste
DW
where are the blogs for the people who never vote? by all means repost this there
I checked their main site, hoping they at least spoke about the nations in which some folks claimed that long time No Vote blocs had delegitimized national votes, like South Africa and the Phillipines, but the site’s ‘It’s Global!’ hyperbole offerings were pretty thin, and didn’t include apparent other successes.
Mmmm…wayoutwest gave the link. Here, it’s been Terri Di and Mark someone.
I’m quite taken with mr. Swanson’s reasoning. Tis quite original and well argued. Notice the use of the word “honest”. That’s a tell. Our tom Paine .
Your last paragraph is beautiful. It is filled with the personal and the concern for your brothers and sisters. So it then blends into the idea of fraternity (and sorority) I.e. unions. Oh what went so wrong?! I’m reading “solidarity for sale”. It clearly shows the difference between American unions and European ones. Yes, if only we had all that union money to form a workers mutual aid group instead of supporting Dino’s, like abused spouses.
Shorter Praise TBoww: Corruption and moral depravity are the only way out.