Dear Dan,

Dear Daniel Ellsberg (Photo: Jacob Appelbaum / Wikimedia Commons)
You and I are getting ready to tape a debate on the question of whether to vote for Obama (in “swing states”). It will air on Lila Garrett’s “Connect the Dots” show on KPFK next Monday. I’m looking forward to it, if for no other reason, because I think our public discourse lacks much serious debate between people who respect each other’s intentions. I have nothing but respect for you and believe you mean nothing but the best in advocating votes for Obama. You honestly believe I was catastrophically wrong to vote for Jill Stein in Virginia, as I’ve done, and I honestly believe you are horrendously misguided to be expending your valuable energy trying to get others to vote for Obama. And yet we’ll be friends through this and regardless of whether one or both of us ever change our minds.
An hour debate will also be a refreshing change from the usual sound byte simplification of the media, and yet not necessarily sufficient. So, let me tell you a couple of stories.
I wandered over to the Obama campaign office here in Charlottesville, Va., on Wednesday when former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was scheduled to visit. She showed up, in fact, and told everyone how terrific Obama is.
I asked Albright whether she still believed that killing a half a million young Iraqi children was “worth it.” She said that she very much regretted having made that remark. But did she regret having enacted the sanctions that killed those children? I asked if she opposed the current “crippling sanctions” on Iran, and she said that she did not.
I’m not so much troubled by Albright’s sanctioning of mass murder, as by the agreement with her on the part of the many people gathered to applaud her comments. Not a single person present expressed the slightest concern over Albright’s having taken part in the murder of so many young lives and many more older ones. Not a single person expressed an interest in learning about a history they were perhaps ignorant of. Not a single person offered an argument for what the positive “it” was that could have made such slaughter “worth it.” Not a single person offered a claim that George Bush Sr. or Bob Dole would have killed even more children.
I don’t mean to give the impression that Albright’s audience was comatose. On the contrary, numerous individuals began grabbing me, shouting at me, pushing me, grabbing my camera, twisting my arm, and spitting out the most vicious hatred. In theory they would all, no doubt, agree that in a system of self-governance people should be able to question their elected officials, former elected officials, and at-large mass-murdering former elected officials. But in this case, this official was playing for the Good Team. The proper role, they believed, therefore, was that of cheerleaders, the highest value deferential respect.
Do they believe the wholesale slaughter of human beings, whether by sanctions or bombs, is sometimes justified by some mysterious “national interest”? Do they believe I was a raving lunatic and that Albright would never have hurt a fly? Do they just believe it’s most appropriate not to ask, because that would involve disrespect toward someone on the Good Team? No matter which way you slice it, you come back to a room full of well-dressed polite supporters of mass-murder. That’s far more worrying to me than the individual sociopath speaking to them.
Now, present in that room were TV cameras and newspaper reporters. The purpose of the event was to generate positive news about the reasons to vote for Obama and the stature of the people supporting Obama’s reelection. Clearly, from that point of view, the staffers in the office did the absolute right thing in chasing me out of the building and making sure that not another inconvenient question was posed. As I’m sure you realize, voting for Obama in a swing state as a single secretive individual can hardly be called rational. A single vote makes no difference. To be the rational strategic voter you envision, each person must also strive to recruit others.
On the other hand, you say that you agree with me that independent policy-driven activism is more valuable than elections. You agree that we don’t have legitimate elections offering a wide range of choices, that we need a movement to demand changes we cannot vote for, changes to strip out the money, open up the debates and the media, undo the gerrymandering, do away with the electoral college, provide automatic registration, and on and on and on. You probably agree that women did not vote themselves the right to vote, that the labor movement grew when it struggled and sacrificed by striking and has shrunk while funding the Democratic Party asking nothing in return, that major changes for peace and justice and civilization have been driven primarily by independent movements and often movements that have mobilized third and fourth party campaigns before winning over the Big Two. You may agree with Howard Zinn that it’s not so much who’s sitting in the White House as who’s doing the sitting in. You might even agree with Emma Goldman that if elections alone changed anything, they’d be banned. In any event, during certain non-election years, I see you doing as much useful activism for this country and the world as anyone I know.
Presumably you place some value on spreading awareness of what sanctions did to Iraq. Presumably you see what value there could be in halting the sanctions on Iran. But what would you have done in that Obama campaign office in this swing state on Wednesday? You are a remarkable person, but still only one person. Would you have ruined the entire publicity stunt by pressing Albright further on her record of genocide? Or would you have thrown her a softball about what sort of evil lawyer Mitt Romney might be expected to nominate to the Supreme Court? Let’s accept that both would have been good questions. But you could not have asked both. There was not time, and asking the first would have negated the purpose of the second — not to mention getting you thrown out of the event.
Even you cannot follow your advice, and you are Daniel Ellsberg. Imagine how hard following your advice is for other people. Most people, to one degree or another, identify with candidates and parties. They talk about “us” winning when their candidate wins. To various degrees they avoid becoming aware of their team’s flaws. To various degrees, they censor their opposition to their party or politician, before, during, and after elections. What is your time calculation? Do you prioritize campaigning for a month, six months, a year? How much time out of each four-year period do you sacrifice from independent activism of the sort that has always changed the world? And how much time out of every two-year term of those legislators who Constitutionally are supposed to be running the country?
I’m convinced that you personally do an excellent job of avoiding lesser-evil team cheerleading in between elections. But, most people do not. Our RootsAction petition on “strategic voting” got a response several times lower than any other action we’ve ever sent to our list. Some people do hold their noses and vote, but they have no idea how tightly they should be holding their noses, and they do not act appropriately post-election. All the activists running around knocking on doors and making phone calls for candidates will not do so for peace or justice in December. They’d look at you like you were crazy if you suggested it. Their work is done. Their energy is drained. Their role as spectators is established. And the promise is contained in any activism that they, or even you, muster: We will attempt to inconvenience you, but we will never ever vote against you.
In between elections, as we move from having voted for the less evil party toward the inevitable contest four years hence between two parties that are both more evil than the time before, our activism is neutered by a system of unions, PACs, and nonprofit clicktivist and media complexes that seek their funding, power, and sense of importance from one half of the government. It has become routine for grassroots or astroturf activist leaders to head into the veal pen and ask the elected officials of the Good Party or of the “Progressive” wing of the good party what they should ask their members to demand. This is an inversion of representative government. You’ll recall groups that favored single-payer healthcare forbidding their members from mentioning it, asking instead for a “public option” because so-called public servants had instructed the public to ask for that. The point is not that legislators should never compromise, but that we should leave it to the legislators, because when we pre-compromise, we end up with even less in the end.
When Obama was in Charlottesville, hundreds of people waited in line for hours for the chance to cheer anything he said. Some of us went to talk to the people waiting in line. We wanted to get a sense of how they felt about all the policies that had produced such outrage under Bush and been expanded under Obama. Under Obama, as you may know, wealth is concentrating faster, the environment is deteriorating faster, the military has spread further and cost more, the warrantless spying has spread and been firmly established as without criminal penalty, rendition and torture have become policy choices rather than crimes, imprisonment without charge or trial has been “legalized” (although Obama is still fighting for that power in court), an assassination program has been created and openly advertised, wars have been launched without the courtesy of lying to Congress, the CIA has been given major war powers, “special” forces are in 70 nations on any given day and raiding a dozen homes to kill on any given night, drones have raised to new heights the percentage of war victims who are civilians and the percentage of the people in certain nations who hate our government, secrecy has mushroomed, and retribution against whistleblowers has exploded. You are aware of all of this. We couldn’t find a single person in that crowd who had ever heard of any of it. Major news stories that would have put people into the streets in outrage if the president were a Republican did not exist to this crowd.
Sure, you know the facts. But are you devoting every ounce of energy to spreading the word and building resistance? Of course not. You’re investing your time in campaigning for Obama votes (in swing states). You may understand that there’s been no step back from Bush’s policies, that Obama has advanced them further. Yes, Romney could advance them even further even faster than Obama would in the next four years — even in the face of the public opposition that would likely materialize for a President Romney. But we need a reversal of course, not a slightly slower death, not even a significantly slower death. The environment is collapsing. Weaponry and hostility are spreading. We’re dealing with a need for survival, not a desire for utopia. What we need for survival is a credible independent movement.
When a labor union today says “Reform NAFTA and push for the Employee Free Choice Act, or else,” the “or else” is empty and everyone knows it. When Bill McKibben says “The tar sands pipeline is your test,” nobody believes that when Obama fails the test McKibben will oppose his reelection. Compare this battered-spouse relationship with that of Latinos who posed a credible threat to desert Obama and thereby won some modest immigration rights.
You know that we had a significant (pitiably weak but significant) peace movement in 2005 and 2006. Why? Because opponents of war and opponents of Republican presidents’ wars were teamed up together. That fell apart as Democrats took power in Congress in 2007 and as 2008 turned out to be the year of one of those endlessly recurring “most important elections of our lifetime.” The movement was temporarily shut down, never to be restored. We went from Mitch McConnell secretly warning Bush to get out of Iraq to Obama getting credit for withdrawing from Afghanistan even as the troops there were double the number deployed when Obama entered the White House.
How in the world can anyone have spent the last many years in the peace movement and not noticed this partisan-based electoral-based collapse? I’m sure you’ve seen and were likely surveyed during the study done by the University of Michigan’s Michael Heaney and Indiana University’s Fabio Rojas. They documented this collapse and its partisan basis.
Would I object to people voting for a less-evil but still evil candidate if they could continue organizing for justice? Of course not. I do not fail to understand the power of your argument. I’m sure you’ll do me the courtesy of not simply repeating it. A more evil candidate is more evil than a less evil candidate. A greater warmonger and bigger destroyer of the environment is worse than a lesser warmonger and lesser destroyer of the environment. I think the case for Obama’s superiority to Romney is vastly overblown. I think, in fact, that Obama has been able to get away with much that we would never have allowed McCain to achieve. We stood up against Bush’s attack on Social Security. But China is to Nixon as humanitarian goods are to Obama. Let’s grant, however, that Obama is better than Romney. Let’s grant it because it is not the central argument and may very well be right. That is, if you compare their platforms as presented, guesstimate how much of each is outright lies, and factor in the likely public resistance to each, Obama may come out ahead. My argument is not that he doesn’t. My argument is not that he doesn’t do so meaningfully. My argument is not that this isn’t a question of life and death. And my position involves complete awareness that I will not be the first to die, someone else will.
Here, in contrast, is my actual argument: It is vastly more important that we have an independent movement based on policy changes rather than personality changes. In theory we could have that with lesser-evil-swing-state voting. In reality, we cannot. We cannot build a national movement in the 38 states from which all candidates and journalists have fled, and on the condition that we avoid building it large enough to have any impact whatsoever (which would ruin the whole strategy by transforming a non-swing state into a swing state). We cannot keep a movement from shutting down for each election cycle as long as most people see their jobs as followers of politicians rather than as the true sovereigns of this land.
I don’t care about my purity. If I wanted to be pure I would avoid thinking about these matters at all. I wouldn’t subject myself to a room full of well-dressed polite backers of mass-murder at all if I wanted to be pure. And I would hold my nose and work with them shoulder-to-shoulder if I thought that would lead to the greater good. I would have voted for Captain Peace Prize if I believed it would save the most lives. I do not. I believe that building an activist movement that depends on rejecting support for a party of mass murderers will save the most lives, and will do so in the relative near term — or we will all perish.
As you know, I’ve spent months trying to avoid this discussion because I believe that our so-called elections drain energy away from activism. They also serve to divide us. We all want peace and justice. But we drop everything to debate or, more often, quarrel with each other over electoral matters — something the powers in Washington must have great laughs over. But the election is this week, and this debate must be had. I enter it with a great deal of respect for that small group of people on the other side of it who understand the need for a real mass movement and believe a mass movement is compatible with lesser-evilism. I’m simply not persuaded.



79 Comments

Great rant David but i fear you will be debating a ghost when you face off with Ellsberg. Ellsberg and the other people you have questioned about the reality of Obama lack any real substance and seem to be mere shadows of real human beings.
Those of us who try to maintain our humanity in this spiritual wasteland seem to be smaller and smaller in numbers and have lost the ability to be heard by the mass of shadowy beings that surround us. They see us and react with fear to our presence but they don’t really hear our words or they hear them as threats.
Even the so called Mass Movements they support have become mere shadows of earlier Movements and now represent Civil Obedience more than true activism.
I suppose in the most generous perspective one could offer Mr. Ellsberg’s position, we might allow that the third party “movement” is so immature as to not yet be globally relevant. This is to say, a swing-state, non-swing-state argument may not be wholly without merit. It would be unwise, however, to offer such generosity in Mr. Obama’s case.
When we look back at the last fifty years or so and refuse to entangle ourselves in the “but this election is too important” trap, we can see the poison of the uniparty all too clearly. Corporatism has grown without restriction. Militarism has grown without restriction. Rich-get-richer governance has reached an all-time peak. The environment, on which all life depends, stands on the brink of catastrophe. Any semblance of real democracy, fueled by an informed electorate, has grown less and less possible as our mass media increasingly has been corrupted by greed and profit. Voting for parties that have embraced this malaise is nothing short of treason… nothing short of national suicide… nothing short of planetary suicide.
We must not allow incrementalism and “binary relativism” (i.e. you must choose the better of the two choices) to cloud our thinking. Perhaps I would allow that Mr. Obama is more committed to maintaining a social safety net than Mr. Romney or his party is. But measured against the aforementioned evils of corporatism, militarism, perverse environmental policies and the utter loss of “of the people, by the people and for the people”, i.e. a government of the wealthy, by the wealthy and for the wealthy, the integrity of the social safety net will not long endure whether Obama is elected or Romney is elected.
The issue is not that we are wasting critical time every four years campaigning for Democrats; the issue is that campaigning (and voting) for Democrats is working (and voting) for the status quo… or worse.
http://youtu.be/gdmix60ajmA
Will the sanctions on Iran have the same effect? Which countries will trade with Iran?
Robamney Goood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP-Plv8gBEM&feature=share
Great piece, David! Parallels a piece I’ve written:
http://my.firedoglake.com/radicalee/2012/11/01/its-only-castles-burning-whos-manning-the-bucket-brigade/#recommend-40-28200
Is it really purity vs. practicality when practicality is in actuallity just acquiescence?
We’re not allowed a real choice so going along with the one we’re given is an exercise in resigning ourselves to impotency.
no thanks Daniel
rec’d
5 Nov 2012: Move Your Money OUT!
The conscious acceptance of guilt in the necessary murder;
To-day the expending of powers
On the flat ephemeral pamphlet and the boring meeting….
W.H. Auden
Auden, at least, was capable of a “conscious acceptance” of his complicity in murder during the Spanish Civil War. My liberal friends, many who will waste no time telling you they are “peaceniks”, are not similarly self-aware. And I’m voting Green.
Thanks for posting this David, I really appreciate both your arguments and the respect you show for Daniel Ellsberg in the piece. Having sat with both Tom Drake and John Kiriakou on more than one occasion over the past few months, they both agree that what Ellsberg had the courage to do was just astonishing — and he continues to be one of the most profoundly moral and courageous people I know. No matter whether you agree with his conclusion or not, his integrity in getting there is impregnable.
I’ve asked him if he’d like to respond. I hope he does. As your piece acknowledges, there are no easy answers, and allowing this stupid election to set people at each other’s throats who have strong and meaningful alliances where it matters is abjectly ridiculous. Thanks for leading by example.
Thanks David, beautifully put.
John
Thank you, David, for this thoughtful and considered post.
Recommended to the thoughtful consideration of the entire FDL community.
DW
Astonishingly cogent and respectful piece, Dave Swanson.
Scrupulous logic underpinned by your ususal vibrant moral compass. We’re fortunate that you post here, and make the case so many of us try to make…but better.
Thank you for a very reasoned post, which reflects many of my feelings and values. I, too, am dismayed by citizens who wish to close their eyes, turn their heads and look away from what reality IS now.
Sadly most citizens are authoritarians who wish only to cheerlead for their “team,” and they don’t want anyone pointing out how the “emperor has no clothes on.” Hence, don’t question St. Madelaine, as it might cause voters to have to really *think about* about what’s going on, what their tax dollars are really paying for, and the fact that WE ALL have a LOT of blood on our hands.
I have great respect for Daniel Ellsberg, but I wholeheartedly disagree with him on his stand about voting for Obama. That said, I wish you both well in your upcoming debate, and I thank you both for doing it. That’s really great, and no doubt will represent at least some *real views* being truly “debated”… as opposed to the crappy Kabuki Show non-debates held between RMoney v. DMoney.
I was reading a crime-fiction book written by a South African author. There was a conversation between a Zulu & an Afrikaaner – both good & long-time friends, so they could speak freely with one another. The Zulu commented that now “his people” were “in charge.” The Afrikaaner replied: “Sorry but No. It’s STILL just MONEY that’s in charge. It took me a long time to realize that.”
And that’s the same “deal” here in Team USA fuck Yeah. R-MONEY or D-MONEY?? It’s still just MONEY that’s in charge.
Rec’d. Hope that Daniel Ellsberg chooses to respond here. Thanks.
This is not going to win me any friends, but something that I’ve noticed in the whistleblowing community (I am a whistleblower) that I see here too is boundless admiration for the icons: Ellsberg, Serpico, Wigand, now Drake and Kiriakou, among others… a tendency to walk on hallowed grounds when discussing them.
During a fracas inside the w.b. community, where I was questioning the tactics of a veal pen NGO, I had one w.ber tell me I was driving out the “most important voices” like Serpico and others.
I have great admiration, respect, etc., but nobody–nobody–is beyond reproach. I long for the day when whistleblowing has matured in America to the point that it becomes banal and ceases to generate martyr-icons.
Yes the two biggest things our so-called elections do are
1)waste and divert our time and energy
2)make us argue with each other over the relatively unimportant thing we’re wasting our time on
Thanks for speaking from your conscience on this issue. And much respect also goes out to Mr. Ellsberg as well.
The Pontius Pilate pilloring from the maddened crowds is not for me. So no TV for me!
Maybe I am making a big mistake, but I think solitude is for me; despite my belief that life is sacred, war is murder, we are here to help each other,…..
I always enjoy your thoughtful posts.
I could just save my breath and quote that comment from now on. Very succinctly put.
I appreciate your acknowledgement that people of good will can have honest disagreement. I also hope Mr. Ellsberg responds in detail and look forward to his thoughts.
But when I put my editor’s cap on, I find myself highlighting phrases that travel the path of “How in the world can… xxx… and not notice…yyy”. A question like that really undermines the writer’s stated expectation of good will on the part of the responder to this reader… It’s probably okay as a rhetorical device, but sort of puts the fence up doesn’t it?
I have always considered Madelaine Albright to be one of the best examples of how people in power embrace evil. It is just boggling the way the powerful and the ordinary in our country cheer on the killing of millions of children as necessary collateral damage without, actually, it bothering them at all.
Bless you for having both the vision and the courage to challenge one of these monsters. The reaction you received shows very clearly just how much courage it takes – and just how much even “progressives” and “liberals” which many in that room probably think of themselves – are as insensitive and evil embracing as the conservatives.
BTW – think of those conservatives who believe fully formed human life possessing a soul begins at conception and therefore every baby must be saved with no consideration for the mother – these individuals are the biggest cheerleaders for our sanctioning and killing abroad, including the necessity of starving hundreds of thousands to millions of children. Wonder how their GOD – the one who indicated in the Bible that He Loves EVERYONE – will take that slight moral inconsistency.
…well stated…goes and gets to the middle
…X 2 …thank you DS…commendable
All this discussion and exchange will enure to the benefit of all when the time comes. The time is coming soon so cheer the fuck up.
I believe that building an activist movement that depends on rejecting support for a party of mass murderers will save the most lives, and will do so in the relative near term — or we will all perish.
Amen and Mahalo, David, that is exactly why I voted for Jill Stein, and, why I Occupy…! *g*
This is a beautifully written, powerful and wise piece. Thank you David.
This post is a cool breeze on a hot day, thank you DS.
David, per everyone else, thank you for a respectful, well-thought-out piece.
The case for the banality of the Obama administration, that you make so well, simply reinforces that we are at a Weimar Republic moment.
If you agree, the election issues which most matter next are voter suppression and tolerance for civil disobedience. I would argue those issues are even more critical because of the monopolies and oligopolies which control the media. On those two issues, especially the former, I think Obama will be significantly better.
If Obama were more securely ahead in Wisconsin, I would love to vote for Jill Stein.
I also make exceptions in swing states for folks who demonstrate, who file but do not pay federal income taxes, or have been arrested for progressive causes. They imho are among a larger group of committed folks who have earned the right to not vote for Obama.
Just so there’s no misunderstanding: “They imho are among a larger group of committed folks who have earned the right [in swing states] to not vote for Obama.
Are there dangers in a swing state vote for Obama “legitimizing” corrupt/evil government, sure. I don’t mean to diminish those and it’s certainly the glaring weakness in my position. The place imho to rectify that, however, is in the RED and BLUE states with down-ticket votes for Dems and then for Jean Stein/someone other than Obama.
David you should note that Bloomberg just officially endorsed Obama. That fact will not help Mr. Ellsberg in your debate.
Let me add a point that is never mentioned in any of these debates so far: In many nations of the world, the people are offered up a health care system in which Single Payer Universal HC is employed. Many of those nations have as a matter of course, more than two dominant political parties.
In many nations of the world, the government’s federal spending involves social programs for people, such that we cannot even imagine here in the USA. Here in the USA, 57 cents out of every dollar goes to the military. And that will only get worse.
Of course, these days, many of us don’t have time to imagine much of anything these days. We are too busy looking for work, fighting off foreclosure efforts, and attempting to have our health insurers understand that the premiums we pay should cover all treatments, and that no treatments should be deemed “experimental” and with that designation, denied us and thus deprive us of our lives or our health. Our imaginations are stifled, with every ounce of our energy going to survival rather than to truly living.
The notion that a democracy can flourish with only two parties is a very mis-taken notion. We have had one hundred years of Dems vs Republicans, and our middle class lives have gone downward in every aspect since the mid-1970′s. How could starting to build up third, fourth and fifth and sixth parties make things worse?
If Obama does lose because a significant number of voters choose to stay home (which is always the more serious loss of votes to any given candidate than the”theft” of votes off to third parties), then so be it. The “Democratic” Party leaders, like Diane Feinstein and Rahm Emanuel have done nothing but make sure the candidates on the ballot are to the right of President Nixon, and he was, if my memory serves, a gawd damn war-loving Republican! For whatever reason, whenever a progressive runs in 89% of the voting districts of the nation, the Democratic Party money is given to his or her opponent in the Primaries, and that opponent usually wins.
So why won’t the Peter Coyote, and the Ellsberg, et not put the blame the Di Feinsteins and the Rahm Emanuels for pushing us progressives out of FDR’s Party of Choice? Why blame us for being loyal to the ideals that were instilled in so many of us by the time we were ten, and that were responsible for Social Security, 40 hour work week, ending child labor, work safety and health standards, protection of the environment and looking for truly green energy solutions (rather than nukes and coal, both of which Obama supports.) Most people who give it a moment’s thought realize that under the Two Party system (which is really only a One Big Money Party system, the nation’s middle class faces austerity. under a three or four party system, maybe the nation would be looking to model itself on Iceland, and bring about the real economic reforms that would imprison the Bernankes and Geithners, and restore the working of the nation’s economy to us. The fact that 49 cents out of every dollar of profit goes to the Biggest Financial Firms is something that Iceland no longer tolerates, and our nation’s middle class should wise up and stop tolerating it as well.
I haven’t heard what, to me, are convincing arguments for not voting third party in solidly red or blue states, but I’m trying to keep an open mind about swing-state strategists. I subscribe to your argument, but I think in general swing-state strategists are arguing in good faith too.
The real test for all of us is after the election. Will third party voters, whether third party activists previously or not, continue to work toward building the party and/or building the movement in other ways? Will swing-state strategists begin or continue movement-building efforts and will they be effective critics and protesters, not apologists, concerning whatever the Dems (including Obama if he’s re-elected) are going to do?
Thank you for a thoughtful analysis.
Earned the right to vote for who they want? You sure do not believe in democracy, which is odd in that you mentioned voter suppression.
Needs to be on a billboard somewhere. Great post and great comments. Good for FDL. David, prepare to be deluged with negative commentary a la Matt Stoller from his recent Salon piece.
“The real test for all of us is after the election. Will third party voters, whether third party activists previously or not, continue to work toward building the party and/or building the movement in other ways? Will swing-state strategists begin or continue movement-building efforts and will they be effective critics and protesters, not apologists, concerning whatever the Dems (including Obama if he’s re-elected) are going to do?”
Beautifully said.
The Frightening Rise of Golden Dawn in Greece is an example of why I am considering voting for Obama in Wisconsin. Golden Dawn are national socialists. They beat up immigrants and those who are GLBT.
That’s the kind of fractionalizing that occurs in society, especially among unemployed youth, in cases of severe income inequality. That’s where we’re headed, local militias replacing civil institutions. I think the civil disobedience/OCCUPY it will take to fight the 1% will be significantly more hampered by a Romney presidency.
I’m concerned by Dems who think all they have to do is vote for Obama. I’m likewise concerned by libs/progs who think all they have to do is vote for Romney.
In his study of authoritarian personalities, Dr. Robert Altemeyer wrote that the most dangerous type of person is the one who believes that, since they are good and just, they can do anything at all in pursuing their goals. That is your modern Democratic party: “we’re the good guys so you can trust us to massacre thousands of innocent people, which you can’t trust those bad Republicans to do.”
Read this study here:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
How would one go about this?
Is there a role for FDL to create a “how to” or a directory of organizations? Is there an overarching umbrella org to connect different TPP together?
I spoke with Stoller after his piece went up. He thought the response was genuinely positive. You can anticipate a certain amount of shit from the lockstep set, but among people who actually try to think before forming an opinion, he felt like he got a pretty fair outing.
It’s tough to make the argument that the uniparty is so bad (correct) and then at the same time that the Presidential election doesn’t matter. You haven’t done it.
What’s worse, you seem to be implying that all libs/progs have to do is not vote for Obama, and then the everything will turn out swell. Is that really your position?
marym put it well.
“The real test for all of us is after the election. Will third party voters, whether third party activists previously or not, continue to work toward building the party and/or building the movement in other ways? Will swing-state strategists begin or continue movement-building efforts and will they be effective critics and protesters, not apologists, concerning whatever the Dems (including Obama if he’s re-elected) are going to do?”
Fair point.
“The Frightening Rise of Golden Dawn in Greece is an example of why I am considering voting for Obama in Wisconsin.”
I don’t understand this statement. The Greek government has passed an austerity agenda, cutting social programs while offering lavish benefits to the rich, making their population desperate and angry and opening the door for a Golden Dawn. This is exactly the kind of program Obama would pass if he could, so why not expect a similar result? Obama wants to cut social programs, has wanted to cut them from day one–Google it and see–so a vote for Obama is a vote for a desperate and angry society, exactly the kind of place where fascism thrives.
Unfortunately, too many Americans focus on the privileges of citizenship and the responsibilities. Clicked on your name and say you posted a diary back in September. Thank you. That supports FDL.
Have you ever demonstrated? Do you have a photo? Could you post a diary?
As a way to defund the uniparty, do you file, but not pay your federal income taxes?
For years, I’ve been kicking-in $20/month to FDL. I’m due to give them a raise, which they’ve more than earned. If you are able have you joined FDL as a “Friend $45/year, Benefactor $120/year, Gosprey $1,000/year?
I think you are right just like Al Gore and the scientists were right but we still have flooded subways and a fossil fuel bonanza going on. We will all stay activists and many more will join us because things will get worse after the election for the vast majority. Austerity is the plan of the PTB and whoever is President will be heading up it’s implementation and just like the scientists are right about global warming the economists are right about austerity i. e. it can’t work and never has worked. I believe what Dr. Stein says that we are at a tipping point but it will be a turning point for our society in a good way. I saw a tweet from her just now quoting Eugene Debs ” I would rather vote for something I want and not get it than vote for something I don’t want and get it”.
Have you ever been arrested protesting the uniparty’s austerity measures?
Have you ever protested the uniparty’s austerity measures?
Have you ever filed, but not paid your federal income taxes to protest the uniparty’s austerity measures?
Have you ever donated to FDL or OCCUPY?
Should have been: “Unfortunately, too many Americans focus on the privileges of citizenship and NOT the responsibilities”
Thanks for the great article.
Jill Stein 2012-Iowa
Oh, trust me, I’d be the last person who should advise on a national organizing strategy! But I think some important elements will include
- the kind of networking that has gone on among the now-dispersed Occupiers, in building alliances with other advocacy and activist groups (people often write diaries about some of this at FDL, including a recent post about InterOccupy
- other types of networking and synergy around common issues (see wendydavis’s post today on tarsands)
- supporting the NLG and ACLU, or others who are helping in the legal fight
- getting involved with our state Green Party
Excellent post David and heartily agreed with. I think the first step toward combating a problem is to admit it. Lesser of two evilism is literally no more than living in denial as to the basic facts confronting us.
A strategy which has neutered those who should be opposing what is probably the greatest challenge we have ever faced at any point in our history as a species on this planet and one which must be primarily confronted on American soil.
Here’s to our inevitable awakening and evolution .
How do I know Romney4President isn’t paying you to post here?
Dems are the only firewall against the wingnuts in state and local government. I haven’t seen anyone make the argument that any third party can replace local and state Dem party apparatus. IMHO, their issues are largely from GOP dominance of the media, especially talk radio.
I will never forget the video I saw of Madeleine Albright visiting Rwanda after the genocide was over…”had I only known…” Such remarkable denial and dancing around the definition of genocide.
The callous disregard politicians have of human life cannot be underestimated.
I don’t mean to diminish the systemic problems with the Democrats, but here in Wisconsin it’s a lot easier to vote for Tammy Baldwin against Tommy Thompson than for Obama against Mitt.
And Tammy was horrible. She’s in one of the safest Dem districts in the country and she caved to Barry all the time.
Yes, marym, it will be the day AFTER the election and the days which follow which shall reveal just how deeply AND broadly understanding has sunk in.
Voting is only part of what is required of those who would, effectively, change things … and among that requirement is the willingness to put oneself on the line. Which means finding common ground with everyone who is willing to engage rational and reasonable discussion, allies, friends, and those who, too often, are simply dismissed as “the other”. Finding this Common Ground, requires listening and hearing, as well as speaking, it requires patience, tolerance, and understanding.
Threads such as this one are very good practice. In fact, of late, there have been several posts and threads which reflect “best” practice, this one among them.
The “silly season”, clearly, serves the interests, too often, of the ruling classes. It is the times between such seasons which we must all seek to make much better and sustained use of that, before too long, it shall be the true interests, the genuine needs and heartfelt aspirations, of the people that such a season as this must come to serve..
During the “silly season”, the suppression of the right to vote becomes obvious. Facing the suppression of the right of assembly, of the right of seeking redress of just grievance, in the times “between”, as well as during, that “season” must come to be understood as just as critical, just as important. For it is those actions, beyond voting, which will be required and necessary in the days, months, and years ahead … those occasions and opportunities of the conscious assertion of the right and the absolute necessity of each of us daring to confront injustice and suppression and, as well, to to embrace conscience, courage, and community. Democracy and civil society require no less.
DW
Let’s all listen to the debate on Connect the Dots and see both sides intelligently argued.
Let’s all contribute more CASH to FDL to see both sides intelligently argued.
*heh* *twinkle fingers up* ;-)
There is some good stuff here but another thing that has bothered me consistently on rereading is the Albright anecdote. In what sense is Mr. Ellsberg presumed to be responsible for Madame Albright’s abysmal human rights views, her appointment as Secy. of State or her noted boorishness?
I’ve read that section 3 times now and still don’t understand how or why he’s called to answer you for that. It’s a fine anecdote but I’m not sure I’d expect it buys you anything in this disagreement.
Without trying to put too fine a point on it, are campaigns automatically presumed to be directly responsible for the worst behaviors of their worst surrogates? I’d want to be careful about that one it has a tendency to cut both ways.
How can someone who came to this Obama campaign event and quietly sat through your interaction with Albright be charged with being “a well-dressed polite supporter of mass-murder?”
Such a serious charge requires much more evidence.
The effect of Ellsberg’s article has been to dispirit a movement that already is challenged by Herculean obstacles.
We can bend over backwards to show respect to him, but respect in this situation is deference, and until we recognize that as long as we’re hedging our bets by voting for Obama in swing states the powers that be have us by the short hairs, and will continue to have us by the short hairs, until we shuffle off this mortal coil. The move to end Social Security a reform at a time, and to privatize public resources and deregulate will continue until, like frogs in a pan of cool water on the stove, we are boiled to death.
I don’t doubt Ellsberg’s intention; I don’t consider it at all. He is irrelevant. His problem is, and always has been, his refusal to recognize that Americans need iconic figures to rally around, who will show them the way and lead them to glory.
As one who knew Ellsberg back in the Vietnam anti-war movement days, what afflicted him then afflicts him now. He has always been uncomfortable being the center of attention, or the focus of any attention. He’s conflicted about leadership, which makes this latest article by him all the more infuriating. Just as soon as the people coalesce into a movement, he throws a bucket of cold water on it.
Had Ellsberg had the courage of his alleged convictions years ago, had he assumed a leadership role instead of a commenting role, we arguably would have avoided the maelstrom of these past 4 decades.
I do question his intentions just as I question Obama’s and others in positions of political and government prominence who keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome. You can’t be friends with the other side of the aisle that is hellbent on keeping the status quo. When your life has been spent inside the institutions of power, when you’ve been educated in the ivy leagues for careers in the military and the Pentagon and think tanks, you’re surrounded by people who reinforce the group think that is the status quo.
The solution to our problems isn’t going to come from within the system that created the problems. Ellsberg is irrelevant, and until a leader emerges with a plan to take back the government from the plutocrats, I think the only action left is to move to higher ground, dig in and wait out this occupation.
Now is the time to start a serious effort for Jill Stein to be the winning candidate in 2016. It will take a huge effort to displace the current party structure, but it has been done before, and can be done again.
“I think the case for Obama’s superiority to Romney is vastly overblown. I think, in fact, that Obama has been able to get away with much that we would never have allowed McCain to achieve. ” Thank you David Swanson. I have been fighting with my family over this for 4 years. I did not ovte for Obama in 2008, because I thought he was going to do pretty much exactly what he did. My reasoning was that Democrats would hold a Republican to a higher standard of behavior than they would a Republican.
I was a loyal Democrat for 35 years until 2008. I could not vote for Obama. And I have been called a racist for 4 years, even after everything I said would happen came about. This time I absolutely could not vote for Romney so I spent months swaying between Stein and Anderson. I voted for Jill Stein because 1) she will have greater numbers than Rocky, simply because her party has been in existence for longer; 2) I feel like Rocky should have worked with the Greens instead of pulling support away from them. 3)But mostly because Jill is out there standing up for her beliefs every day. Rocky says exactly what I want to hear, but Jill walks the walk.
And while I do not like what Obama did with healthcare and the economy, it is not why I voted against him. I hate those damned drones. I hate NDAA and I hate targeted killings of anyone. These things tear at my soul. I am ashamed of my country and I have been for 11 years. I am tired of it.
It is not going to change until we have more choices and that won’t happen until we stand up. We keep hearing now is not the time to ‘vote our conscience’, well, when is that going to be? It is never a ad time to vote my conscience. It is never the right time to settle for a lesser evil. Never. There is always going to be someone who is just a little bit worse than the other really bad guy. But, there is also someone better than both bad guys.
Quit preaching to the choir. We all know Obama’s a Republican. Where are the diaries with photos of you protesting? Where are the diaries of you filing but not paying your federal income tax? Where are the diaries about you getting arrested for civil disobedience?
Where are the diaries asking people to kick in $20/month to FDL, if they can afford it.
Don’t discount the value of these threads for folks who are just watching, waking up, or both.
Also, people do what they can. It doesn’t help to harangue them for not meeting your specific litmus tests. Just IMHO.
Wow, with the exception of “for 35 years”, I could have written your comment. Yup, no kidding.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=480751681969324&set=a.348506675193826.86173.100001034902749&type=3&theater
I just finished my third shift today calling “swing” voters (Definition: Voters who make up their minds on how to vote depending on who got to them last before entering the voting booth – These are people who are so stupid that they’d be dead if breathing wasn’t an automatic function) on basic issues. Food labeling, for example (Yes on Proposition 37 in California is losing, 40% yea to 50% no). I have no energy or patience left to take on people like you who don’t know who or what you’re attacking.
If anyone reading this has the time, please sign up for a shift – http://www.carighttoknow.org/phone_bank
Many of us (on both sides I suppose) feel the question of whether or not Democrats deserve support is something that actually matters immensely. The attitude that this does not matter is precisely what frustrates and upsets many of us. A vote for Democrats is a vote of complicity in the “lesser” evils they are perpetrating. It lends an unwelcome air of legitimacy to an undemocratic government that refuses to listen to the people. Actively arguing support for them or campaigning for them takes the complicity to a whole new level.
I believe activism matters immensely. I also believe the question of support for corporate authoritarian politicians and oligarchs of any persuasion also matters immensely. We may have strong and meaningful alliances on the former but clearly not the latter. It would be a good idea to acknowledge this (while still working together where the alliance truly exists). To pretend the latter issue does not matter is pretty misguided in my opinion. I imagine a majority of people on either side of this debate would agree.
I hope you’re referring to the legacy party charade and not elections in general.
Excellent statement David. In order to escape party politics we have to come to the realization that we no longer accept the status quo of the oligarchy and we must act independently and in opposition at all times. We don’t have time to pussy foot around any longer. This aint no fool’n around.
I feel very sorry for Daniel Ellsberg. I cannot but think he is not thinking clearly, and I so hope he has time to revisit the respect we all hold for him. As we age, (and I am there too) sometimes things happen, as with a ship that has faced too many rough seas. I worked for a good man once about whom I had the same feelings – Clark Clifford. It’s sad when the last part of a legacy of public service does a nose dive. We need to remember that time is a somewhat artificial concept in the grand scheme of things.
i don’t know what that is but am referring to what pass for elections in the U.S. today
I just read Ellsberg’s piece suggesting people vote for Obama and I’m shocked.
#1. Ellsberg says Obama has earned impeachment. A few lines later, he encourages people to vote for Obama, i.e. vote for someone who has committed a crime so great that they aren’t fit for the office you’re voting them into.
#2. Ellsberg quotes Thoreau as saying “Cast your whole vote: not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence.” Then Ellsberg says “It still means that to me. But this is a year when for people who think like me — and who, unlike me, live in battleground states — casting a strip of paper is also important.” That bit of twisted logic should disqualify the man from ever quoting Thoreau again.
@marcospinelli at 59, don’t be dispirited. Mr. Ellsberg is confused. For our own sanity, we can leave it at that and not dwell on him. More importantly, we can agree…
Yes, Obama should be impeached.
Yes, Obama is a war criminal whose drones and bombs are responsible for the deaths of countless innocents, women and children among them.
Yes, Obama mercilessly cracks down on whisteblowers and activists while at the same time shielding the bailout banks and those responsible for Bush’s torture apparatus.
Yes, Obama approved the drilling that led to the BP oil spill and yes, he’s continuing to steward the building of the Tar Sands pipeline.
Yes, Obama co-opted a tremendous amount of progressive energy that otherwise would be focused on fighting the exact agenda he’s advancing.
Politics is about compromise, but you don’t compromise your soul or your innermost core values. When you do, the death machine you’ve compromised with knows they’ve got you. They see your weakness and feast on it.
If you still believe your vote means something, listen to Thoreau, not to Ellsberg. “Cast your whole vote: not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence.”
I think it’s fair to call what passes for elections in the U.S. today legacy party charades.
Legacy party because the current parties are tools of the elites and in no way representative of the people. They are unsustainable and will be replaced by new power structures eventually (hopefully sooner than later).
The election process here is a charade because corporate and authoritarian power will not change regardless of which legacy party candidate wins the election. Policy on almost all of the critical issues will be identical either way.
I can’t imagine a more vivid illustration of the cognitive dissonance that exists in the mind of way too many. Either Ellsberg doesn’t take impeachable offenses seriously or he believes they can be prevented without holding offenders accountable.
Largely fine work, David, but for once I do have to disagree with you, regarding this:
I would object. Consciously voting for evil, voting for a known murderer, voting for someone whom even Ellsberg agrees should be impeached is acquiescence, it is surrendering yourself to the “two-party” paradigm, no matter how inconsequential you might consider the act of voting to be. I could see not voting at all if you thought elections truly pointless. I can’t see the point of going into the voting booth and going “Torture Bradley Manning? Amnesty for mortgage fraud? Sure! Sign me up!”, no matter how unseriously one might take it.
As for Ellsberg’s past credentials, well…times change, people make decisions, and sometimes they are the wrong ones. Just because we respect what Ellsberg has done in the past doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call him out for his complicity in perpetuating Obama’s evil. No more than Obama’s 2003 opposition to the invasion of Iraq excuses his attempts to extend the occupation.
“If you have a hero, look again; you have diminished yourself in some way.” —Kierkegaard, quoted by Jim Bouton in I’m Glad You Didn’t Take It Personally (what, you think I actually *read* Kierkegaard? I just suck up the bits that seep into pop-culture), and probabaly misremembered by me.
You can rant all you want about the president, but you are ignoring the voters and the Congress they elect.
It was Congress that in 2001 declared war on individuals, not nations.
And you have done nothing to defend members of Congress who speak out against the wars in any public way. Clearly, the voters want war because they defeat peace candidates or even those who call for cutting the US war machine to 2% of GDP which was sufficient for tiny Britain to run a global empire for a couple of centuries, with Britain fighting one or more wars for most of that time.
Yet Romney is at 48% with a demand that the US spend 4% of GDP on war making without actually fighting any wars. He is backed by the people who read the Constitution for their authority, skipping over the clear intent that the US never have a standing army like the British had.
Of course, in the event of war, Romney would never make the commitment that Congress made December 8, 1941 and FDR accepted, total commitment to war.
Conservatives have indoctrinated the voters in super majorities to support war making without any sacrifice, because if no Americans suffer, the war making is victimless.
The biggest problem is the hold the conservatives have over voters and the power that gives them in controlling Congress. And if Congress is going to support war making, then the nation will spend heavily on war making, with wars a certainty.
Best to devote all your energy to converting all Republicans to thinking like Ron Pauls.
It seemed so to me too, juliania. As cassiodorus’s piece reminded us, it’s best to pay attention to the message, not the messenger.
We’ve seen similar cases made by Brother Cornell West and apparently Noam Chomsky. In the end, some of us need to vote for a person who shares our values, and not be captured by fear. Who has said here: ‘If not now, then when?’ My sentiments exactly.
That’s completely unfair to Ellsburg. He’s been very outspoken for instance about Bradley Manning. I agree with David Swanson in this instance but Ellsburg deserves the respect Swanson gives him, and does NOT deserve your attitude.
Oops, I mean EllsbErg of course!
Ellsberg can be respected while still vehemently disagreeing that his position is appropriate or even logically consistent. From my point of view he is courageous and has done and does much good, yet his position on Obama and Democrats is logically and ethically inconsistent and therefore incoherent. Of course he is not alone. Many people are stuck in this muddy logical and ethical territory.