Dear Michael Moore,
In your recently published blog post 90 Million Are Planning Not to Vote – Your Mission: Take Just One of Them to the Polls, you wisely ignore the myth of the undecided voter and aim for a voting block that can truly affect the outcome of this election. When you write:
“I want you—yes, YOU, the person reading this right now—to get ONE of your fellow Americans who would not otherwise vote to show up at the polls and support Obama.
Here’s the math: there are upwards of five million of you seeing this, via email, on my website, here on the Huffington Post and all over the Internet. There are 1.2 million following me on Twitter. I’ve got almost 700,000 Facebook friends.
I want just one million of you to convince just ONE person each—one person who’s planning NOT to vote—to go to the polls and vote for Barack Obama. That’s it. And those million extra votes could make all the difference in what will be a very tight election—and it will save us from a tragic return to the Bush years.” (Emphasis mine)
Michael, I want you, yes YOU, the real Michael Moore—not your assistant, cousin or barber—to know that you can count me among your 1.2 million twitter followers, and of 700,000 facebook friends. I just know I am one of your bestest of friends.
On top of that, I am a fan of your documentaries. Fahrenheit 9/11, Capitalism: a Love Story, and Bowling for Columbine made me weep like a menopausal hairdresser curled up on her couch with a gaggle of cats watching a double feature of Sophie’s Choice and Terms of Endearment. You are a big part of the reason I set out to make a documentary of my own. Did you know that a glowing review of my documentary on the Occupy movement, American Autumn is even published on your website. Have you seen the movie? You are in it you know—making grand pronouncements about the Wall Street criminals and praising the revolutionaries in the streets.
In the fall of 2011, Michael, you were among the highest of profiles pointing out that the Occupy movement is, again, in your own words, a “movement against the greed of corporate America and its banks—and the money that now controls most of our democratic institutions.” And that “the majority of Americans now agree that a nation where 400 billionaires have more wealth than 160 million Americans combined is not the country they want America to be. The 99% are rising up against the 1%—and now there is no turning back.”
Michael, I am sure it will come as no surprise to you that a statistically significant number (I dare say an overwhelming majority) of those who chanted at one time or another ,“We are unstoppable, another world is possible” or even, “We are the 99%!” do not see voting for Obama as part of their “rising up.” Can we agree on that much?
Now don’t get me wrong. I am not going to make a case that there is no difference between Romney and Obama. While dying peacefully in one’s sleep is more appealing than having one’s limbs torn off by flesh eating zombies, it does not make the former something devoutly to be wished for. Speaking of the politics of fear, the 90 million voters who will sit out this election are just as much a part of the corporate agenda as the selection and election of a lesser of two evils, as Chris Hedges recently made clear in his endorsement of Green Party candidate Jill Stein. Hedges also articulates the importance of aligning with third parties for those of us interested when he writes:
“All the major correctives to American democracy have come through movements and third parties that have operated outside the mainstream. Few achieved formal positions of power. These movements built enough momentum and popular support, always in the face of fierce opposition, to force the power elite to respond to their concerns. Such developments, along with the courage to defy the political charade in the voting booth, offer the only hope of saving us from Wall Street predators, the assault on the ecosystem by the fossil fuel industry, the rise of the security and surveillance state and the dramatic erosion of our civil liberties.”
In comparing a potential Romney victory to a third Bush term, you ignore some inconvenient truths about President Obama’s administration. In this, you are not alone.
Many Obama supporters do not know or willfully block out the facts that Obama has expanded the USA PATRIOT Act, claimed the legal authority to indefinitely detain US citizens without charge or trial, maintains a “kill list,” and has expanded the drone war well beyond the Bush regime. Given Obama’s history of trampling on the Constitution, the irony is that the most compelling argument I have heard to vote for him is that he will install three Supreme Court Justices. Do we really want someone who rubber-stamped the NDAA selecting the next three Supreme Court justices?
Also: Michael, the engineers of the Wall Street corporate greed that you say have hijacked our democracy have a place to occupy after they retire from Wall Street, and that place is at the highest levels of Obama’s Cabinet. The same Obama that you would have others and me try to sell to the 90 million people who are not voting this Tuesday.
Why not, in the spirit of the 99% rising up against the 1%, tell your millions of followers to convince the 90 million non-voting Americans to support Jill Stein, a candidate who has said, quite correctly:
“If public opinion really mattered in this race, we [her presidential ticket] would win. We have majority support in poll after poll on nearly all of the key issues, from downsizing the military budget and bringing the troops home, to taxing the rich, to stopping the Wall Street bailouts, to breaking up the banks, to ending the off-shoring of jobs, to supporting workers’ rights, to increasing the minimum wage, to health care as a human right, through Medicare for all. These are the solutions a majority of Americans are clamoring for.”
In addition to that, Michael, she has been so brazen as to do what Obama failed to do in any of the debates when she uttered not one, but two “C” words, coming hard upon each other: Climate Change.
I am voting for Jill Stein, Michael.
Give it some thought, and I bet you will do the same. I hope to hear from you before Tuesday.
###
Dennis Trainor, Jr. is the creator and host of Acronym TV and writer and director of the critically acclaimed documentary American Autumn: an Occudoc.



53 Comments

Michael Moore: Show us what you’re made of!
Thank you, Dennis, thank you.
I don’t understand Michael Moore’s support for Obama.
It makes me wonder about Michael Moore..
If you ask people to vote for the lesser evil even if that lesser evil is out to, as someone on this blog wrote, “cut off both your arms and beat you with them,” just because the other evil is always a bigger evil, there is something wrong with that picture.
That does not seem like a democracy. It is like being presented with three candidates: two communists and a non-communist, and locking yourself into forever voting for one of the lesser communists because you are scared of the worse communist. Instead of building up, and voting for, the non-communist. You are going to forever have communists; how wonderful for the communists. That is the type of society we have locked ourselves into by voting for the lesser evil because of fear and manipulation–limiting ourselves to ALWAYS voting for communists even though there are other choices.
Instead, we should start building up the Green party now. If they get 2% of the vote, they will start to get notice for the next cycles. What happens under voting for the lesser evil? Two corporate parties–forever.
As you say, scaring the hell out of people so that they will always vote for the lesser evil no matter HOW BIG the evil is is a part of the corporate agenda. Why does Michael Moore support that?
I don’t have hopes for Michael Moore. For one thing, the election is Tuesday. For another, Michael Moore today is not the Michael Moore who made Bowling for Columbine.
Did Stewart, Colbert, Letterman, Leno, Katie Couric, Ellen DeGeneres, The View, The Talk, etc. allow any third party candidates on their shows?
If not, maybe that should be a campaign for 2016. That is free time with large audiences. We could barrage the shows and the sponsors?
Obama did nothing reverse Bush policies, instead he chose to intensify and entrench them. Bush Version 2 is now the status quo, thanks to Obama.
The first thing Obama supporters like Michael Moore need to do is go find Bush and apologize to him for being such hypocrites.
…X 2
…imagine that…Obama supporters,backers and would be voters for Obama apologizing to G.W.Bush — oh hell — lets throw R.B.Cheney in too — for being hypocrites.
However that would then be or becomes a matter of principle which in the case(s) of Obama backers,partisan apologists and Team D cheerleaders would or does not/did not ever matter.
At this very late point in/with this 2012 WH election carnival suggesting Americans discover principles or consider the condition of hypocrisy regarding Barack Obama and what Obama has done to pour cement around Bush and Cheney acts and actions is so very likely being wishful.
Barack Obama belongs in a jailhouse and not the WH.
Too bad so many Americans have decided that only German Nazis did war-crimes in pursuit of world dominance but Americans doing the same is OK because …well…well because Americans are Exceptional and Indispensable so can do what Nazis got sent to Hell for doing…hows that for some principle and hypocrisy?
Amen.
With reelection no longer in the back of his mind, Obama will show what he is really capable of and it won’t be pretty. More police state abuse of civil liberties, more war, more stripping away of environmental regulations, more corporate subservience, etc…, and, the onset of his soon to be raison d’être, the decimation of the social safety net.
His apologists will carry on with their disappointment, while at the same time, consoling themselves with being spared the merciless abominations of imaginary president Romney. Meanwhile, the critical task of ridiculing every piss-ant Republican who says or does something stupid will continue with unabated enthusiasm.
.
You’re so right. That will be the apologists’ answer to everything: “Romney would have been worse!” As if they know. They can’t envision a country that fights back, anymore, because they’ve become willing captives, held tightly in Obama’s tentacles.
After the election, if Obama wins, his voters will find themselves supporting him and making excuses for him, because he was “their” choice. They’ll forget they said they were voting for him because he was supposedly less evil and start making excuses for his behavior. In short, Obama will usurp them once again, and no one should kid themselves that Obama won’t take every advantage of his “mandate.”
And the so-called stars like Michael Moore will either go on about their business, since the state of America doesn’t really affect them personally, or in the case of Ellsberg, we might hear an apology, but it will be too little, too late.
(shootthatarrow, I so agree with you: those who are supporting Obama are hypocritical, without principle, and believe in American Exceptionalism. I don’t want to hear one word out of them when Obama begins the process of gutting Social Security, or they hear the iron gates slam shut on this country, as Obama entrenches his power to imprison or kill anyone at will.)
Recommended.
Thanks Dennis, well put. Hard to imagine the moral contortions required to vote for Obama again if you know the facts of what he has done. However, I find it amazing how few people I thought of as liberals even know half of the crap he has pulled. I have talked to relatives and friends and found them to be mostly ignorant of the major abuses of the Obama administration. Propaganda works on the so-called left almost as well as it does on the right.
John
Great post and video, Dennis.
By the way, your documentary was great!
Thank you for the post. I voted for Jill Stein a week ago in early voting. I agree. We need leaders like Michael Moore to empower voters by reminding them that indeed we do have other choices. In fact, we have no less than six presidential candidates on most ballots in the 50 states. Yet I have made it a sport to ask friends and acquaintances if they can name them all. So far no one has been able to. That tells the story of how well informed we are not regarding our choices.
I know the vile things that Obama and the Democratic Congress (when they were in the majority) have done regarding the Patriot Act and renewing the Bush tax cuts. Still there is that twinge in me that hangs onto the belief that Republicans are so much more worse.
Sandy brings all that home. August 29, 2005 as Katrina was making landfall Bush was posing for a photo op with McCain and his birthday cake. Less than 24 hours after Sandy, Obama was in New Jersey meeting with Christie.
The contrast is stark between an administration that tells the people: let them eat cake and one that says “let me help them.” This has more to do with what the men actually did than what they said. Oh and we had Romney posing for photo ops at food banks in Ohio the day after Sandy. Literally. These photos were staged just as the ones of Ryan a few weeks ago posing in the kitchen of the homeless shelter.
I guess what I’m say is that I believe there are degrees of evil. I live in Texas so it was easy for me to vote for Jill, but I can’t say that I would do the same thing if I lived in Ohio or Florida.
X2
And the post-election behavior you predict for Obama supporters is the same as what conservatives would do if Romney were to be elected. They would say that at least it’s better than Obama, and then go back to doing and saying the crazy things that Obama/Democratic supporters can then deplore endlessly. How convenient for everyone.
Thanks Dennis,
I can understand the pragmatism of a Jim Hightower or Thom Hartmann given their understanding of past history of “make me do it”. I think Hightower would acknowledge the bait and switch nature of an Obama campaign. Hartmann and Moore – not so much. I don’t think there is an FDR bone in Barack Obama’s body, and we’re too far gone into inverted totalitarianism to expect much on that front. I think he’s also too arrogant to fear the rabble or believe the tipping point is nigh.
I’m voting for Stein and have supported her campaign monetarily but movements are the main power going forward. What’s up with the moneyoutpac.org you’re involved with? There hasn’t been much activity there from you and the rest of the list of heavy hitters that started it.
Recommended
This is a problem. That failure to understand how those espousing radical ideas can still come down for Democrats in the crunch renders us incapable of seriously taking them on (or down). Look, what is Moore’s social milieu? Does he spend most of his time with the Occupy troops? No, he has a marvelous niche as a gadfly among liberals. And that is the key, “among liberals!” In the end, that determines, that’s his friends, that’s his job even.
So in that light, the call for Moore and his ilk to support Stein falls short. At best, it ends on election night. What is needed is for Moore, et al., to take up support for the Green Party — on election day and in the months and years after, to commit to building that party.
Problem is, supporting a party is a harder sell than supporting a candidate. Takes more work and, beyond that, is conceptually more complex than choosing your favorite left celebrity.
So I also put it to you, Dennis. Here you are calling for support of Stein. But what are your plans for the bloody morning after? Are you going to commit to supporting the Green Party AS A PARTY the day after and in the months and years after?
That’s the cutting edge here.
- In a word: yes.
I did not start moneyoutpac, i joined the group with my friend David DeGraw who is behind it. Things have been quiet on that front. Not sure what is going on w. that. I will check.
I am impressed with, and will be doing all I can to support MoveToAmend.org
Thank you. That’s where the Stein campaign will differ qualitatively from Nader’s 2000 personality run!
Nader has done more for this country than most people you can name. He has saved many lives with his consumer advocacy, and educated many more on civics, and the hard work of not just being right, but standing on your principals while others sell out all around you.. He is a principled man in a sea of assholes, and I am sick of people on the left sticking a knife in his back. He is a hero to me and others, and had a perfect right to show up the weak ass democrats as the insufferable cowards they are.
John
This video and Trainors argument is ridiculous, irresponsible, illogical, self destructive and Dangerous. in less than one week we will either have President Obama or President Romney. I voted for Obama, despite the valid issues you raise because I know the predictably disastrous and promised effects of a Romney/ryan presidency. I vote to protect My family and community from Romney. in less than 7 days will you be apologizing to your family and community for NOT doing all you can to protect them from President Romney? how can we hold Obama accountable to the people if he is defeated by Romney?
Romney promises 2 Trillion MORE defense.
That is MORE drones.
More Killing,
More surveillance,
more wars.
more patriot act unconstitutional secret anti American killings.
yes, I want Obama instead of romney/ryan.
yes I want Obama instead of Ryan to choose judges.
yes i will take a little progress forward instead of a tragic and dramatic step backwards.
How many extra dead VICTIMS OF President ROMNEY are you willing to accept in order to make a protest against Obama ? I have heard some of my friends speak of.. well IF Romney wins.. then we will have REAL revolution.. as if THAT will be the spark that truly turns our culture and economy upside down and we “need Romney” to make the change happen where the common aka poor man will finally have some power… what a load of BS that is.. Im from madison, wi.. we found out change is not that instant.
Michael Moore is only one (and a very prominent one) of a long trail of folk who have profited off looking and sounding liberal but apparently right before the election being nothing of the sort. It’s almost impossible to believe that he who stood on that Oscar stage and shouted against Bush/Cheney can’t do the same against the heritage in blood ongoing now. Just as it is impossible to believe that others championing Bradley Manning, don’t have a qualm supporting Obama who condemned him.
These people, and we, know who they are, and we shall not forget that they could have jump started real change for the people of this planet – for whatever reason they have turned on us at the last strategic minute, and as history will be the judge, they may have doomed our efforts.
I hope not. I hope that we are still thinkers in this country and can heed the warnings more than we heed the persuasive power of their inconstancy. The signs are there that we are. I am sure for many of them there are pressures we cannot envision, and who is to say what you or I would do in their shoes? So, this is not a personal indictment, simply to say time marches on and what they do is recorded at this juncture. They will have to live with what they have decided to say publicly.
It well may be the duopoly, which has so effectively shut out third parties from public perception, will prevent millions from voting in the shambles after Sandy, due to electronic failures. If that happens, we won’t know how vibrant third party advocacy actually is. The beat goes on.
also the argument that Obama greatly overreached the constitution on NDAA is an urban myth, debunked here http://www.politicususa.com/ndaa-breitbarted.html . the NDAA while still being a poorly written bill, does NOT allow detention of US citizens. People who continue to propagate the myth of how bad the NDAA is are simply unknowing pawns and victims of right wingtrolls like breitbart.
A net worth of $50 million dollars goes a long way in making one believe in the status quo.
Thanks. I will check out MoveToAmend as well. That’s another reason I give Thom Hartmann a pass on his status as an election season Obama apologist; If he never does another thing right, he did write “Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights”.
I think your assessment is accurate.
It comes to mind that such as Michael Moore are only doing what Obama himself did once elected, a political betrayal that we the public are more and more able to resist because we have seen it so many times before. We won’t be stunned this time if and when the election is stolen. And if and when it is, we won’t desert those who have stood as our representatives through the present storm. Bravo to them, and strength to us all!
Please remember, folk. Anything is possible if the people unite. We’ve seen what an incoming tide can do. Watergate. Something fine is beginning.
From “unknowing pawn” Chris Hedges:
Obama and Romney have both made it clear that their policies are endless war, drilling/mining/fracking, austerity, a security/surveillance state, ”free” trade agreements, privatization of public services, and the relentless upward transfer of wealth. Obama has also made it clear that on vital social issues, his policy is compromise.
How do you plan to, as you say, protect your family and community, and hold whoever is elected accountable? I’m sure there are 10’s of millions of families and countless communities who will be badly hurt in either case, and who will benefit from your ideas about how to protect all of us.
Also, to use your framing, is there a total number of dead people beyond which Obama would forfeit your vote, or does it only need to be lower than the potential Romney number, or a number which you imagine somehow magically will never touch your family and community?
X2
Under your logic and with your support, the democratic party goes further right every day. How many abuses will you tolerate before you think they don’t deserve your vote? Some of us have been at that point for a while, you will apparently be there much later. There is nothing to to stop them from continuing to trample the 4th, and 5th amendments, killing more innocent people and propping up the gangsters who nearly destroyed the world. They did nothing to the war criminals that came before them, and they are complicit in war crimes themselves.
Go ahead and vote for whom you want, but suggesting that others should ignore what you can ignore is silly, and counter-productive. I vote for those who uphold my values. I do not vote based on scare tactics, or based on what polls say, or what the corrupt corporate media says.
John
The old imaginary president Romney will have “extra dead” argument. Not very compelling when the very real president Obama already has plenty of dead and extra just about everything Bush did.
What is it with the “protest against Obama” horse hockey? Every third party voter that I know is basing their choice on who represents their own values and principles. Obama is the same as Romney in that he happens to have disqualified himself from consideration.
good stuff and I have convinced a good friend of mine to vote Green next week! Also it is important to remember to vote 3rd party for state and local candidates…..
mary the premise of your argument is false and frivolous. what you claim is “clear” to you doesent match the reality of the differences , huge and in many measurable ways deadly differences between the candidates. You can choose to help elect Romney or to work to prevent the election of Romney.
Those are the only 2 choices and outcomes available in this presidential election.
Either Obama OR Romney.
that’s it
Not Jill, nor Rocky nor Gary will be declared president next week.
the pace and consequences of fracking, outsourcing, unbridled military , spending, and war will all be hugely accelerated under Romney in contrast to Obama.
Millions of people will be cut off their health care under romney.
more will die.
Accelerated drilling, pipelines and fracking under Romney.
less renewables, less solar investment,
Less education spending under Romney,
More pipeline to privatized prisons under romney.
less small business and infrascructure under Ronney, More outsourcing megacorporations and megacorporate welfare.
choose either more progress and more likelihood of an open ear to progressive change or more disaster and a closed crony corporatist Romney who already doesent care about you.
I support Jill stein and I like her but i voted Obama.
I am no apologist for the faults and sins of Obama but I am not willing to just sacrifice 4 more years of climate change denial, amplified cheating and GOP corruption.. all the things we already KNOW will be worse under Romney aka bush3.
If anyone really WANTS romney ryan vote for them or stay home, or voter rocky, jill or micky mouse.
if you want more progress instead of accellerated disaster, work to get out more voters to defend and demand more progressive values by getting more voters out for Obama
Put down the visions for a moment and explain exactly how this will happen.
The assumption that Romney will be able to get and do anything he wants is not a logical place to start.
Im not saying forget, ignore or forgive anything.
i understand voting your conscience.
i dont understand how anyones conscience or values areserved by voting in any way that has the direct predictable outcome of a president Romney/Ryan.
can anyone stay on focus and answer THAT please?
how is your conscience and values served by having President Romney?
what is the great case for working towards that outcome?
You didn’t answer my question @ 31.
But I’ll go ahead and answer this one of yours:
No different than that of having president Obama.
No, there are not only two choices. If you live in a solidly red or blue state, you can vote for a third party candidate – in other words say NO to Obama’s policies – without contributing to the election of Romney. If you live in a swing state, and believe you are protecting against the harm to be done by Romney by endorsing the harm done by Obama, go ahead and vote for Obama.
But don’t further facilitate that harm by claiming it somehow becomes acceptable just because someone else may do greater harm, and that people who oppose that postion somehow want to harm more people than you want to harm. I don’t even know, for example, what you mean by “accelerated fracking.” Have we really come to this – making distinctions about how much of our water supply can be put in jeopardy in order to elect a candidate?
thanks mary, good point. in a soundly red or blue state a third party vote is an honorable, necessary message/vote.
if I lived in texas for example and i know the state would dramatically go romney I would probably have voted Jill stein in this election.
the other point you make is tragic but true.
yes we are in many states confined to choosing a matter of degrees.
having seen how accelerated Wisconsin went on RWNJ agenda after repubs won Senate, assembly and Gov it is very likely that things would get much worse, much faster if there are republican majority in Congress House of Rep, US Senate, and White house.
in Madison I was there in the sessions and testified in dozens of committee meetings , not accepting but feeling helpless to see the Reps run full steam ahead getting pretty much everything they wanted, despite common sense, despite opposition and the will of the people. We have been overrun and overwhelmed by new mining laws, new abortion laws, education cuts, privatization bills, tax loopholes, corporate welfare programs and devastating cuts to safety net and infrastructure. right to work is on next sessions agenda, literally hundreds of shitty bills can pass in a years worth of 3-house majority (Sen/house/white house)
I guess your logic involves not voting for Republican policy advocates, whether they are Republicans or Democrats? I like that. Now take the next logical step…
No, there is also Jill Stein and several others I voted for Jill.
Everything you allege under Romney has been worse under 4 years with Obama than 8 years with Bush. Romney is a mystery, Obama is not. For verification with over 900 references see below. Verified Facts seem never able to overcome feelings, but for the sake of all those innocents whose blood has been shed, I have to try.
Civil Rights – http://newprogs.org/blog/2011/11/09/civil-rights-under-democraticrepublican-uni-party
Economy – http://newprogs.org/blog/2011/11/10/economy-under-democraticrepublican-uni-party
Economic Graphs – http://newprogs.org/blog/2012/03/02/economic-graphs
Education – http://newprogs.org/blog/2012/01/14/education-under-democraticrepublican-uni-party
Election Reform – http://newprogs.org/blog/2012/10/01/election-reform
Environment – http://newprogs.org/blog/2011/11/08/environment-under-democraticrepublican-uni-party
Health Care – http://newprogs.org/blog/2012/04/03/health-care-under-democraticrepublican-uniparty
Poverty – http://newprogs.org/blog/2012/10/12/poverty-getting-worse
Transparency – http://newprogs.org/blog/2012/02/27/transparency-under-democraticrepublican-uni-party
Unions – http://newprogs.org/blog/2012/02/05/unions-under-democraticrepublican-uni-party
War – http://newprogs.org/blog/2011/11/11/wars-under-democraticrepublican-uni-party
Whistleblowers – http://newprogs.org/blog/2011/11/09/whistleblowers-under-democraticrepublican-uni-party
I hope it doesn’t come as too much of a shock that Michael Moore probably doesn’t care what most of the comments say against him in this thread.
Really, sometimes it’s just too easy to see the differences in folks around here.
But, I’m all for Free Speech and think and let think, so I’m happy for the group support.
His considerable good deeds in no way negate the fact that in 2000, he ran as Ralph Nader, and did not run an organization-building campaign. Could the Greens have done a better job of utilizing his strengths? Indeed (see http://my.firedoglake.com/jeffroby/2012/10/28/dump-capitalism-8-the-bloody-morning-after/ ).
But the important point is that Stein is running a different type of campaign, and that is what we need to build on, not memories of Nader.
One way in which Obama is demonstrably worse than Bush/Romney: Obama was able to get Bush’s three American job killing “free trade” bills past the Democrats in the Senate, which Bush was not, Just as Clinton was able to get NAFTA passed as HW was not.
And for his next term, Obama is now negotiating the sovereignty-destroying, job exporting TPP (Trans Pacific Partnership, called “The NAFTA for Asia” which is mostly being kept secret from congress and the American people, but which is worse for us than any of the previous deals.
Do you suppose the Republicans care when people write diaries and make comments about them?
Though I am a lawyer, you do not need one to get at the truth of this. There is a reason civics is required in most states both in Jr. High School and High School. It is so everyone knows their basic rights and that the constitution is the supreme law of the land. You don’t have to go to law school for three years and know great subtlety and nuance to realize that the Patriot Act, extension of the Patriot Act, and NDAA are gross and substantial violations of the constitution. No act passed by congress or signed by the President nor any signing statements nor any statements in the acts saying basically, “You know we aren’t going to ever use this” or “This is legal stuff, trust us, and we will comply with a court order” make any of it legal or proper.
History may well record Bush Jr. and Obama to be our worst presidents for exactly the same reason. They deliberately discarded the constitution and provided unconstitutional rule for the longest period in U.S. History. Sadly, it was also with the least excuse. Between the two, I blame Obama far more. He is a lawyer and I believe smart enough to know better. For verification with over 100 references see http://newprogs.org/blog/2011/11/09/civil-rights-under-democraticrepublican-uni-party
My guess is that if “elected”, Obama will have a much easier time destroying Social Security than Romney would.
I cannot say, for I do not know.
I’m trying to understand if you are trying to make a point. I know. It’s Saturday afternoon and we all a little gah gah.
But, if that was a sincere question, I’m not understanding.
This statement is short-sighted and a false dichotomy. In the short term abandoning the least of the two fascist parties will have minor consequences, but in the long term it is the only way to retard and reverse the rightward trend of the two legacy parties. I voted for the two Socialist Party USA candidates (Alexander/ Mendoza) in Florida and wrote in “Single Payer” in the US Senate and HOR races already because that is the only way to make MY voice heard and to say what I want in this election, which is not democracy (from someone who taught university-level US Government for several years).
Then I’m not sure what your original point was since I re-phrased the first sentence of your original comment substituting Republicans for Michael Moore.
I think her point was to criticize other people.
Superb, Dennis. Very thought-provoking and revealing of the embarrassing defense of Obama by his devoted Obamabots. It’s like reading some DK comments stripped naked of their false fronts.
At least one major issue lurking under the Supreme Court question seems to be women’s reproductive choice (other issues too but choice one of the hottest), and one wonders whether the Kurtz-like moral horrors Obama is supervising (with his drones and “kill lists” and continued indefinite detentions and Gitmo still open and his multiple betrayals of all sorts) require a new analysis to weigh the value of choice “as we know it” with its doctor and patient intimidation (even doctor assassinations); all sorts of wormy interventions by religious right which seem thinly disguised woman-hatred; and the difficulty in some areas even to find a clinic which is no choice at all as a practical matter — vs Obama’s moral degradations. Is it a good swap?
Consider that if choice is lost (not saying it should be lost but if lost), women might rise up in outrage and return in earnest to the political fray to get choice back in stronger more humane form (with easier access to Morning After pill as well) as women did in the Suffrage fight, the civil rights movement, and the original fight for choice in the first place. In the process, progressivism across the board might be resurrected by the challenge to women presented by the loss of choice.
Not even sure how to ask the question but one wonders as we consider the endless whittling down of “lesser evils” to avoid some ultimate horrendous outcome, what would that horrendous outcome be — loss of women’s choice? How valuable is choice now in its present diminished form? Is it worth preserving by accepting drones and other moral dishonors to the Constitution and rule of law of Obama and his pals he is so avid to impress by selling his soul? He’s selling ours as well.
This is a muddled comment, sorry. Perhaps someone has better clarity.
Well said Dissenta!
no, gonpa..
(if that IS your real name)
;)
you do not have any other choice between those 2 outcomes.
voting for Jill stein will not being you a Jill stein President as the outcome.
it is Not a false dichotomy.
those are the only 2 choices who can be declared president.
and the premise that things are worse under Obama 4 yrs than Bush 8 I also disagree with.
yes there are similarities between the 2 parties but the differences are greater.
the analysis within your sources is flawed. and the outcome and direction taken from that analysis is defacto flawed and self destructive. and the blanket attribution of all that is “worse in the last 4 years than in previous 8 under Bush” to Blame all of that “worse” on Obama as his goals, his policies and his fault is also weak, inaccurate and overgeneralized. and you know that.
Romney is no mystery, even though he is so dishonest , he does have a list of advisors and presumed cabinet members with known, verifiable histories. he does have a history as governor. he does have a well documented record of promises, campaign positions and ideology that dictates his extreme and severe anti American decisions and strategies.
The value is clear to anyone needing an abortion that even diminished access to a clean safe clinic is better than a coat hanger.
there is a strong and more urgent need for influential and impactful involvement in state and local elections too and also the US House and Senate to break the accelerating right pull of politics.
Im no partisan and definitely not a blind follower of the dems. ive had dissapointments and disgust but i know Romney is a disaster of epic proportions that makes it predictably impossible to move the countries values any more left.
at worst a vote for jill stein, who I admire, leads to an outcome of more rightwing disaster, , in some situations that vote can register one more number in protest to the dems failures, concessions and bad decisions..
but i propose that the actual VOTE isnt the best way to make that message.
the better, more effective, more influential and less predictably risky way to get that protest/disavow dems message out is in video, on websites, in conversations with the elected officials and candidates during their campaign. in testimony into the public record while the horrendous bills are being “debated” ( a misnomer because almost nobody from the public shows up to watch or weigh in/debate at the capitol here in madison.)
the protest, the education, the accountability is mandatory and I dont concede that we should just “accept” anything against our values.
I just will not blindly or unrealistically hope that a vote for Jill stein, here where things are tight in wisconsin.. could bring me closer to a progressive outcome.
zero chance of a stein presidency.. .
in wisconsin, a vote for stein brings us closer to a romney presidency.
an unacceptable outcome.
and yes,
Romneys next 4 years will be much worse than Obamas next 4 years. there is zero doubt of that, at least on THIS site.
so, goNPA,
a few simple questions of you:
which president romney or obama do you want your efforts to support their presidency as a conclusion?
do you really want to support a romney president?
which between those 2 do you personally believe is more likely to be more destructive to progressive values?
if you want to dissuade voters, what about just actively dissuading predisposed romney supporters?
do you need some suggestions of right wing sites to troll to depress their voters?
are you More against Obama or more against Romney?
while you think you have a choice in your vote, focus on the choice on the outcome and that is between Obama and Romney,
then tie the vote to direct away from the most destructive outcome.
“which between those 2 do you personally believe is more likely to be more destructive to progressive values?”
These last 4 years have convinced me that, despite their rhetoric, the Dems don’t stand for the “average working person”…so I believe a Dem in the White House is more destructive….put a Repub in and maybe the wayward Dems will start walking their talk….or else we are just toast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OL8_8NWeM0&t=31s
expecting remaining dems to “walk the talk”, with even less of a voice and less power yet expecting them even MORE effective at driving the countries politics more progressive is an idea that has even less credibility than Mitt Romney.