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Out to change the world, Here Now and in the Hereafter, The Mormon Church extends its Christian outreach in all manner of ways.
Mormons baptizing Holocaust Jews post-mortem.
Lends new meaning to ‘Born Again’.
From CNN:
Holocoust survivors to Mormons: Stop baptisms of dead Jews
Have know of this ‘rite’ for years, thought they had stopped the practice. A surrogate ‘soul’ actually goes into the baptismal font representing the ‘Jewish soul’ being baptized in the name of Jesus. Not a prayer, a baptism. Guess they go retrieve it, b.d. (before death)
When you are ‘born again’ and baptized in the waters into the faith, if you are chosen, an overwhelming feeling of joy takes over your body.
Gays-lookout! I bet that you’re next, felt any unexplained ‘tingles’ lately?
Is there a ‘Stop the Mormons’ Fund yet?
28 Comments
How do we know that the Mormons are not practicing their witchcraft (not the good kind) on regular people that ARE STILL ALIVE?
Given the Mormons Sneakiness in not telling the Jews about stealing the Souls of the Dead, Retribution must be had NOW!
As the high Muckety Muck of my own belief system I Baptize all Mormons Living and Dead into my Church!
And Unlike those semi weasel Sneaks I am telling them Upfront exactly what I am doing.
Baptizing the Dead after they have died without their Consent? The Mormons really think that you can change their minds by convincing one or more descendants to consent for you after you are dead to convert.
Such silliness must be met in kind!
when i read it, i was thinking having a multi-deist religion ‘adopt’ each of them would be fitting.
or wiccan.
the exact opposite of what they believe, same as what they are ‘doing’to the ‘lost souls’. or think they are doing.
i guess that would be the debate of relevance, if that ’soul’ didn’t believe in something themselves, what is the purpose of it?..does it ‘take’ anyway? in the christian faith, you invite jesus into your heart, it isn’t shoved in and counts the same. how can they count that as a ’soul saved’? which is what it is about. ’saving souls’ count.
depends what someone believes i guess..another debate entirely. dunno.
Can you choose your own religion is the question. I wonder what the Protestants, Catholics and Moonies think about their Mormon allies on prop 8 think about being double crossed like this and stealing their Dead’s souls?
The fact that a serious religion is having this debate with the Jews about Holocaust survivors is sick.
Otherwise it is funny they opened this can of Whoop Ass/Snark, Laughter has brought down more regimes than armies although the armies would say otherwise.
Time to laugh like Nietzsche over their God’s Corpse.
Just when I think that nothing would surprise me, this pops up! Stealing dead people’s souls?
How can the leaders of religions possibly be fighting over dead people’s souls? Spread the knowledge and put an end to Romney running again for president. Although, the thought of a Palin/Romney ticket would provide a lot of entertainment. It has already been discussed on the Republican blogs…also, a Palin/Huckleberries ticket.
Religious water boarding? You will confess to being a Mormon whether you are dead, or not? Stop the Mormons, but what about the rest of the religions who are fighting about this? Bad enough to try to convert the living..to fight over the dead is beyond belief. Funny how we never hear about this kind of insanity while elections are going on. You’d think the MSM was censored or something? The new commandment according to the MSM..Thou shalt not tell the truth..about anything..until it is too late to do anything about the truth that is finally told.. and then go to commercial break. Religious dogma has been at the base of most of the evil done on this planet. In 2008, we still have the Christians vs the Muslims. Bush’s ‘reap the whirlwind’ and ‘Crusade’ comments were a signal to the rest of the world..and they heard it loud and clear. The ordinary person who says God talks to them is committed to a mental institution..but presidents stay in power? And now we have Palin spouting the same crap. She says that God will show her the door to becoming president.
The separation of Church and State has to return to politics.
In the ‘Mormon’ religion baptism isn’t shoved down your throat either. This post and it’s replies are full of misinformation and misunderstanding. In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints we believe that Baptism is a very important covenant that must be done in life, you need a physical body do this ordinance and to enter into the covenant. God is a merciful God and has provided a way that those who died before hearing of the gospel can still enter this covenant by way of proxy, or somebody stands in for them. We enter our ancestors’ names into the logs of the temple for these ordinances and THEY CAN CHOOSE TO ACCEPT THE WORK DONE ON THEIR BEHALF.
We do not force anyone.
Unless you can talk to the dead and get their consent what you are doing is icky. People have died for their beliefs even before the Mormons came with their truth.
I would not think of asking my Dad a staunch Catholic to change his mind after he was dead. He lived the way he wanted to live I disagreed with him.
But I honor my Mother and Father by respecting their choices live and dead.
I do not presume to speak for them on subjects they didn’t speak about themselves.
I will not present them a choice when they probably will not answer because they are dead, pretending to offer them a choice is insulting.
And yes Necromancy converting dead souls is silly and insulting, leaving it up to the dead who for the most part we know will not answer is a nice loophole.
When I hear from God that converting the Dead really is ok.
I will accept your views.Check myself into the nuthouse? Wonder if I read the Satanic Verses to many times?( for the record my mom is still alive).
you need a physical body do this ordinance and to enter into the covenant. God is a merciful God and has provided a way that those who died before hearing of the gospel can still enter this covenant by way of proxy, or somebody stands in for them.
Ordinance? Covenant? Law, Agreement?
Let me get this straight, You have to have a physical body to enter the covenant, except where you don’t….One religion decides ‘we can do it for them’, without their or their relatives’ consent. Against their wishes.Against their own lifelong faith. Make an agreement on behalf of someone else–you have their power of attorney for their soul and use of their name, I guess?
Would you like your ancestors’ names to be used in a Satanistic rite/ritual? A surrogate using their name to be a follower of Satan? I am not being flip, think about it. But it is worse than that, because you at least believe there is a Satan..You are using someone’s name in a dictum that they don’t even believe in the first place.
A covenant that required a physical body to enter, except where someone can enter that covenant for them? Without their consent or yours?
A covenant of a church made without consent? How is that to happen? A covenant is an agreement, a relationship, a pact. Made consciously.
Oh, I forgot, it’s made their behalf and The Deceased can consciously decline the covenant if they wish.
I don’t think there is any misinterpretation of the conduct of the Mormon Church at all, in fact, I would sue for misrepresentation if I were a relative of someone on that ’souls count list’ on the wall of a temple of a faith in which I did not believe or participate.
The Morman Church was told to stop, legally on this Earth, where another kind of ordinance, the law, decides this type of thing. They entered into a covenant with the Jews to stop and they didn’t. Now, that’s a not church that keeps its word, and knows what a covenant is, so I wouldn’t worry too much about it ‘taking’ or not if I were the Jews involved.
I hope they sue for misrepresentation or identity theft.
Preach it!
Even though I’m a Buddhist, a few years ago I was on staff at the local Family History Center, which is at the local LDS church, and where folks can come to do family history/genealogy research.
The way the LDS members explained it to me: When they baptize a deceased person, that person has a choice to accept or reject the baptism. If they reject it, no harm, no foul. Anyway, that was my understanding of what they said.
Several years ago, the LDS church agreed to stop posthumously baptizing Jews killed in the Holocaust. If they’ve started doing that, they are violating that previous agreement.
Of course, I’m sure you noticed that there very rarely seems to be any departed souls refusing this ‘baptism’?
I wonder how the departed souls are supposed to ‘decline’ the baptism?
Exactly. Nobody has ever come back to tell us.
In Buddhism, there’s transmigration/rebirth — but who knows whether that occurs, either?
I try to do good things now and be kind to others while they are living, rather than worry about what happens to them after they are gone.
Yep, that is why I posted this article, they are still doing it. 13 years after the agreement to stop.
Yes, preach it!
Requiring families to present at least four generations of ancestors for proxy baptism is a way of keeping people busy. The job seems to fall to wives and the pressure to perform is tremendous.
I have Mormon cousins whom I love, but I disagree with everything about their church. I was upset enough when I realized that they had presented the names of all of my deceased family members for proxy baptism, but what really angered me was that of my sainted grandmother (although I can imagine her in heaven laughing at the idea of it; she had a great sense of humor). And this one aspect of it makes it just so much worse, that a complete stranger stood in for my grandmother. It’s a “mission” that some LDS volunteer for after retirement.
I started to post this earlier, but hesitated.
I Wonder-
Does the physical body, in absentia, offered for salvation have to be legally documented as ‘expired’?
Have The Mormons performed this ordinance/ceremony for all of the Jews in The Old Testament yet? Or just the Jews with tangible
German Certificates of Death? Are the only souls that are offered a surrogate ones that expired A.D. (after the death of Jesus)? Kinda wouldn’t be fair to hold the B.C. (before Christ)ones accountable.
But The Old Testament Jews alone would keep the temple’s soul saving business busy for a while. Did anyone squabble over who was chosen to be the surrogate for Moses or Jezebel?
And that’s only Judaism. Just think, there are infinite persons in history, followers of many other religions, waiting to be indoctrinated.
I bet Cleopatra’s baptism would be a real crowd-pleaser. I heard she wasn’t very submissive. Mormons can remedy that problem by retrieving her from her Afterlife and putting the ’saved, you’re in the Mormon army now’ stamp on her soul.
The mind reels at all of the possibilities.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that after-death baptism is condemned in the Bible.
But not the Book of Mormon.
(Thanks, I didn’t know that.)
Where link or quote please?
Actually, it’s not in the Book of Mormon either, it’s from a more recent book. Joseph Smith preached that if you die outside the Mormon church you go to hell.
A passage from their own book:
In Alma 34:35-36:
“For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked.”
This is the Biblical text that they take out of context and/or misconstrue as support of proxy baptism:
1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
Paul goes on to distinguish between “they” and “we” as in “those people do this” but “we Christians do not”. I’m not a big fan of Paul but I am certain from his other writings that he was not supporting baptism of the dead.
A totally head-spinning discussion of this can be found here:
http://kevinbussey.com/2008/06…..y-get-wet/
From the way Mormons usually show up in forums to defend their faith, I’m surprised we haven’t had one or two here.
Sorry didn’t read your 18 very good scholarship on this issue right a Diary lay out the issues I think we all will be talking about this soon.
Cleopatra! And Tiberius, Marc Antony and all the Caesars!
I guess we shouldn’t be surprised at any of it, since they not only Baptized Hitler in 1993, but also “endowed” him and sealed him not only to his parents but to Eva Braun. In life she was childless but in death she should be eternally pregnant by this monster?
They saved Hitler and sealed him to Eva Braun? That’s awful nice of them.
Thanks opiejeanne1
If drew a diagram of the path my brain has taken to wrap around this one, it would look like a Spirograph doodle. Layer after layer, moving the wheel over another notch, different colored pen, and lost in another loop.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I…..esigns.jpg
Or these fractal animations (I ‘mute’ the music and play something else with them)
http://www.fractal-recursions……/anim.html
The mathematics of a spirograph.
http://www.mathematische-baste…..graphs.htm
Mormons, Mind-boggling.
I’m not sure I’d say they saved him, but they certainly baptized him.
Y’all sent me digging through my bookmarks…again…..it’s a curse.
Here’s how they can do it-this way they won’t miss anyone or discriminate. As efficient as a drive-thru funeral home with wireless access and a website sympathies sign-in book.
http://kevinbussey.com/2008/06…..y-get-wet/
Ha! That’s the same site I linked to, above.
That baptismal font is supposed to ride on the backs of twelve oxen, and I found an article that in some of the newer and smaller temples being built, they have cut corners by only providing six oxen statues with a big mirror behind them. I thought it was a joke at first, but it’s really not.
The design is based on a cleansing basin described in the Bible, but it was used by priests after a sacrifice and never had any relation to Baptism.
omg, entirely an accident!
I hit links one after the other in ‘open new tab’, is entirely possible that WAS your link! duh.
Working on another diary AND looking for Morman links and commenting back and forth all at the same time. I get search pages going, hit the links, line the tabs up and then read them, going back and forth. Have no idea at what point I clicked on your link. I usually open comments links in another window to keep it straight, but have too many open already. I am picky about giving credit, sorry about that.
My friend who built this computer for me says I try to fly it like a jet, and it’s a tri-plane. ha. I complained it was running toooo sloooow, he asked how many tabs I had going, I said I dunno, just a couple of windows’ worth.He said quit trying to fly it like a jet.funny.
How did they rationalize halving the team of oxen?
I’ve seen video of the fonts, don’t know much else.
I actually did send a note earlier, to the site with the font photo, to thank him for it and tell him about firedoglake, it came back.
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