In a blog post today, Yves Smith stated that the Economic Policy Institute “supported the extension of the Bush tax cuts back in December,” and went on to criticize EPI and other progressive organizations for submitting a budget plan (and receiving funding for doing the work) at the 2011 Peterson Fiscal Summit. For the record, I also was on a panel at their first summit last year.
Smith sees these activities as part of a larger trend of converting “what were once left-leaning organizations and think tanks into message-carriers for the right.” In this instance “the arch-enemy of Social Security, Pete Peterson, rented out the good name of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the reputation of the Center for American Progress, and EPI.”
This is a wrong-headed and factually-challenged argument. Let’s start with the tax cut deal last December. Judge for yourself whether my statement was an endorsement of the tax deal or in any way ‘supported the extension of the Bush tax cuts’:
Republicans got to comfort the rich, Obama got to help create jobs
Who got what out of (Monday’s deal between President Obama and Republican leaders) is clear. The Republicans got tax cuts for the best-off two percent and lower estate taxes for the very wealthiest families, neither of which will do much if anything to create jobs. President Obama won policies that will put or keep money in the pockets of the unemployed and middle and low-income families, which will increase spending and create jobs.
That’s what a payroll tax holiday for workers, unemployment benefits and the various tax credits will do: create customers for business and create jobs, which is our biggest need right now.
In two years, the American people will have a clear choice about who the tax code will favor. That debate will, I hope, highlight the hypocrisy of those wanting to deepen the deficit by extending tax cuts for the rich while simultaneously cutting health care, Social Security and domestic public investments in the name of deficit reduction.
-Lawrence Mishel
It’s also hard to see the logical connection between Peterson Foundation funding that originated in 2011 with the position I took on legislation last December. Usually EPI’s funding comes under attack because we receive about a fourth of our funding from trade unions. Smith’s attack is perhaps a welcome change of pace.
Moreover, EPI’s track record on the Bush tax cuts is clear and consistent. EPI experts have consistently attacked the Bush tax cuts in reports and public appearances. Most recently, a policy memo EPI published June 1st assailed the Bush tax cuts for being poorly designed, disproportionately benefiting the wealthy, adding significantly to our debt and deficits, and failing to create long-run growth. An EPI snapshot on June 2nd highlighted a distributional analysis of the tax cuts, showing that the top fifth of income earners received 65% of the Bush tax cuts, while the bottom 20% only received 1% of the tax cuts.
Last November EPI, along with Demos and The Century Foundation, released “Investing in America’s Economy: A Budget Blueprint for Economic Recovery and Fiscal Responsibility.” In this long-term budget blueprint, EPI repeals the Bush tax cut for top earners, and enacts a progressive estate tax. Additionally, EPI had a major hand in putting together the Congressional Progressive Caucus’ FY2012 budget – the “People’s Budget” – providing advice, analysis, and scoring of the policy proposals within the budget, and modeling out the impact of those policies over the next decade. The People’s Budget not only does not budget for the extension of the Bush tax cuts, it also rescinds the tax cuts passed in the December tax deal for upper income earners. EPI would not have been associated with this project had the People’s Budget chosen to extend the Bush tax cuts. The People’s Budget, in fact, raised so much revenue that some, including Ezra Klein, criticized it for relying “a bit too heavily on taxes.”
EPI developed a budget as a part of the Peterson Initiative that was based solely off of our “Investing in America’s Economy” report. The budget EPI submitted, like the budget we put together in November, prioritized the recovery and job creation over deficit reduction, particularly in the near-term. The plan provides a substantial and sustained increase in funding for job creation and investments, modernizes the tax code, and provides a solid footing for Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security in the long-term (no benefit cuts). The plan not only rescinds the upper income Bush tax cuts extended in the December tax deal, but includes a number of other progressive tax increases, including a millionaire surcharge, an increase in rates on capital gains and dividends, and a progressive estate tax. Furthermore, the plan includes a financial transactions tax as well as a tax on financial leverage. Dean Baker, often a critic of the Peterson Foundation (and a former EPI economist we’re very proud to say), wrote a recent piece in which he extolled the plan EPI presented at the fiscal summit as being focused on jobs and growth and getting most of its revenue from increasing taxes on the wealthy.
How EPI’s participation in the Peterson Foundation summit (and the funding we received) can be said to have influenced our policy position remains a mystery to me and Smith definitely does not demonstrate one. The other claim is that our participation provides legitimacy to Pete Peterson. It seems to me that Mr. Peterson readily gets media attention and has lots of means to communicate his policy views and that EPI’s participation in his foundation’s summit did not amplify his voice. In my view, EPI’s participation helped establish a properly-framed debate, one that is not a debate between the centrists like Alice Rivlin and the Heritage Foundation. Evidence of this is in the actual media coverage of the budget plans presented at the summit. Reasonable people can disagree on whether our participation is an appropriate tactic or not.
What is not up for debate is EPI’s credibility as a progressive organization. We were the organization that incubated the ‘public option’, working with Jacob Hacker and Campaign for America’s Future. EPI is the organization that’s documented the economic problems of the working class for 25 years, challenged free trade agreements, and championed the rights of workers to join unions and use collective bargaining to better themselves and their community. We’ve criticized the policies of presidents whether they were Democrats or Republicans. EPI is proud of its work and stands behind it.



162 Comments

Ok but this doesn’t make any sense: “In two years, the American people will have a clear choice about who the tax code will favor.”
The American people ALREADY have a clear sense of who they want the tax code to favor. The problem is that those in Congress and the Presidency don’t give a shit about what the definite majority of the American people want.
And they had it before Obama made his ‘deal’.
I don’t know what to make of this post. I guess you guys don’t know that we’re aware of the effort to keep the retarded professional left under control:
http://my.firedoglake.com/ohiogringo/2011/05/27/112/
Your pathetic attempt at “messaging” is patronizing and insulting as all hell.
Next you’ll be trying to convince us that the Center for American Progress is a “progressive” institution too. Most, if not all, of the EPI’s proposals are centrist: most Americans wanted a public option, and wanted to end the Bush tax cuts. Ubetchaiam is completely correct.
I’m very skeptical and disappointed in this diary.
Good grief, man. Where did they find you?
YES, you did say the tax cut was good:
Not only that, progressives were jumping up and down about not doing the payroll tax holiday deal because that was a trojan horse to cut social security.
Here’s Bernie (a real progressive, btw, take notes) Sanders on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nKZS9l8GT8
I believe that the whole tax, debt, entitlements deal is a Trojan horse and a distraction.
The real agenda is to do away with nearly all the progressive legislation that has been passed. Including the sin taxes and sin laws or at least put them back to the states where they were initially.
are you kidding? that’s your claim to progressivism? a neoliberal policy and support for a campaign to deny the genuine grass roots a voice?
http://www.cognitivepolicyworks.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/logic-of-the-health-care-debate.pdf
http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/12/16/two-thirds-support-6/
I mean seriously.
If these guys are going to try to pull off this “messaging” nonsense, they are going to have to try a lot harder than this.
This is ridiculous.
I believe that the foregoing comments amount to what’s known as a “takedown”. A brutal one at that.
EPI should not send children out to attempt the work of adults. It’ll take a lot better bullshit than what they’re spreading to fool any of us.
“most Americans wanted a public option, and wanted to end the Bush tax cuts [on the wealthy]” This is backed up time and again by the polling data. Any argument against supporting these policy positions is not only nakedly anti-progressive, but probably cannot even be plausibly argued as centrist without torturing the definition of the word.
*G*
Pups, calling shit, for what it is.
*G*
Since EPI is going to come here spreading shit, why don’t we start a campaign to chide them on their own website? Feasible? Desireable? Just plain fun?
as an economic matter, i thought the partial payroll tax holiday was a good thing (actually i agree with arguments that the entire payroll tax should be temporarily put on holiday).
i get the political argument, i just don’t find it terribly persuasive (especially when based on a false understanding of how the fed govt spending is economically constrained). the payroll tax is extremely regressive (which i’d think makes it a tax progressives would want to cut) and it makes hiring usa workers more expensive.
but the payroll tax argument (for or against) is not the issue.
here is the issue: EPI took money from the peterson foundation, an organization dedicated to dismantling some of our most progressive and successful institutions. EPI used that money as earmarked by the peterson foundation to create a budget addressing pete peterson’s signature issue — the faux “crisis” in usa fed govt deficit spending without ever challenging the premise (please see my diary, USG deficits: The Economics, the Politics, the Banksters and You.). EPI participated the peterson foundation fiscal summit (which is used by the peterson foundation to engage in fed budget faux-crisis fear mongering) and therefore lent EPI’s good name to the event and the cause.
EPI should not be defending itself, the error should be quickly acknowledged. EPI should give back the money and publicly refuse to have anything further to do with the peterson foundation. the thirty pieces of silver is not worth it.
bp,
andrew rich, the president and ceo of the roosevelt institute has a post up at new deal 2.0. (Speaking Truth to Power), if you read through the comments you’ll see some from me.
the roosevelt institute was the the organization i most hoped would challenge the bogus deficit fear mongering at the peterson summit (Peterson Foundation 2011 Fiscal Summit Today: Watch Live! and Bill Clinton as Deficit Hawk and supporter of Peterson Foundation 2011 Fiscal Summit
Selise -
Those are all great points.
But what really made me angry is the EPI’s self-assertion that they are a major progressive institution. Saying you are progressive does not make you progressive.
The fact is, there are no major progressive institutions or think tanks.
None. Zero.
Because of that void, anybody with a budget and a marketing team can come in and falsely claim that they are, because they know no one will call them out on it.
We are progressives, but these people don’t represent you or me. I’m tired of these guys trying to claim otherwise.
Sorry for the rant, but this stuff really pisses me off.
You’re right that there are no ‘major’ progressive institutions or think tanks, because ‘major’ requires the kind of money and mainstream media access that authentic leftist institutions will not have ’till after the revolution’. However, there are some ‘incredibly important’ progressive economic think tanks. Two that would have the ear of an actually progressive President are Mark Weisbrot and Dean Baker’s Center for Economic and Policy Research (( http://www.cepr.net/ )) and the Marvin Minsky influenced Levy Economics Institute (( http://www.levyinstitute.org/ )). These are not minor institutions, and they’re definitely places worth supporting and reading.
A commenter at Yves’ house dropped in the diary link; she says she’ll read it after the weekend. ;o)
Nice comment thread under Rich’s piece; even Randy Wray. Good job to you and let’s and DanK, too. ;o)
i agree with you and fairleft.
there are progressive economists and progressive economic institutions — but they are not given the same attention by political progressives that D party associated institutions are.
but that’s up to us to change… from the bottom up!
in addition to the fairleft’s links, i have a few more for your consideration:
1. last year there was a teach-in counter-conference in opposition to the peterson fiscal summit. it was organized at the very last moment, but i did post on (here and elsewhere) it at the time. i also host the archive of all the presentations and discussions (transcripts, presentation materials, audio and video in multiple formats — if you need something different, please let me know).
http://www.netrootsmass.net/fiscal-sustainability-teach-in-and-counter-conference/
2. there are progressive economists who have been engaging in popular education via blogging and other means. there are a bunch of links provided on the teach-in webpages, but i’ll list four i think should not be missed (in no particular order):
a. james k. galbraith: no blog, but you can follow his public activities (talks, articles, etc) on the utip webpage:
b. warren mosler’s blog, center of the universe
c. new economic perspectives (a group blog out of umkc, but with lots more)
d. bill mitchell’s blog, billy blog … alternative economic thinking
Yep take money from the devil and you become one the devil players. Take down yes but they got their say and it wasn’t much other more messaging of the code of F*&^ You to progressives. It will be fun to see what Ives has to say and someone that’s been reading her before she was Ives, I’m glad she has been welcomed here.
Of course, posting of this apologia alone was enough to fulfill EPI’s goals of obfuscating the debate among the number of readers here who do not spend time in the comments section.
Catapults Away!
A payroll tax holiday will only make it harder to keep Social Security solvent, but that’s the plan, isn’t it? When it comes time for payroll taxes to return to their previous levels it will be vilified as a horrible tax increase, and this time the poor, working, and middle classes will be carried into the argument because the taxes will be raised on them.
EPI can’t seriously believe that people here are as stupid as the Teabaggers and will fall for anything, can they? You wanna give a tax holiday to people, target the working people making less than $75,000 a year. Even better, eliminate the cap and leave the system alone.
“That’s what a payroll tax holiday for workers, unemployment benefits and the various tax credits will do: create customers for business and create jobs, which is our biggest need right now.
In two years, the American people will have a clear choice about who the tax code will favor. That debate will, I hope, highlight the hypocrisy of those wanting to deepen the deficit by extending tax cuts for the rich while simultaneously cutting health care, Social Security and domestic public investments in the name of deficit reduction.”
Wow more mealy-mouth talking from those highlighted by Yves. I certainly don’t think Economic Policy Institute is stupid, so they have to know that when they celebrated the payroll tax holiday as a victory, they knew they were celebrating cutting Social Security, so when they speak of hypocrisy they merely highlight their own. Also like with the Center on Budget, the same kick the can excuse is made – as if it is being read from some script – about supposedly addressing the tax code years later, when in fact Obama didn’t have to do a thing since the default would be to revert to Clinton-era taxation plus Obama can wield the veto pen…there’s no need for a deal at all.
I’m just waiting for these veal pen groups to outright start calling Bill Clinton and extreme left of the left liberal as that’s what they’re already implying now by saying that Clinton-era tax rates must not happen and instead they want to advance not only Bush policy but praise cutting Social Security on top of that.
Or, to quote the succinct and pithy They Might Be Giants, “You don’t shake The Devil’s hand and then say you’re only kidding.”
I am sorry but the complaints or you and your org (EPI) was justified. With the associated talk of killing the entitlements because we all need to share the pain, it would have been better to let the entire Bush Tax cuts expire. What appears to have happened, just like the Dream Act and the request that DADT wait until the Repubs took over the House , the Bush Tax cuts were saved from expiring so that they could be a quaint campaign issue. They never really wanted to let the cuts expire. If they had, then they would have let them expire in totality and then after the expiration proposed a new tax to give some relief to the middle class. This administration is still looking for a way to close off the last of the new deal and great society. I am not sure why, but it is the only thing they seem proficient at.
Thanks, Selise, for these links. I think it’s very inportant to see them on FDL. It is for me as FDL is the one site I always make time for and always recommend to the uninformed. And I would like to see a second tier also. An ongoing syllabus as it were for this class in progressive activism. And if there are such a things a wingnut site that has moments of clarity. Perhaps an occasional diary on the current state of progressive economics.
BTW whatever happened to the blogroll?
Dunno, I think I’ll stick with Yves on this one.
Absolutely agreed. There can be no debate. Your credibility as a progressive organization is zero. At least with this progressive.
You can make all the “compromise” arguments you want and their all bullshit. Unemployment benefits could’ve been extended with no additions (just like the debt limit increase can be) if the Democrats CHOOSE too.
And as far as the tax holiday goes, because it’s a regressive tax I’ll agree it’s better than the Bush tax cuts as a stimulus, but the fact is still the best stimulus there is is DIRECT GOVERNMENT SPENDING to pay WORKERS performing jobs.
All of your bullshit explanations are just new ways of agreeing with the right wing about that direct type of stimulus is not needed.
And it’s bullshit when the right wing says it, and it’s bullshit when you chime in with your tax holiday will create jobs bullshit too. You want to create jobs, have the government hire workers. Easy.
“so when they speak of hypocrisy they merely highlight their own.” BINGO !!!
All this yammering about taxes and deficit misses the entire problem we have, not just in the U.S. but in most of the industrialized countries.
For the record, there is overwhelming evidence that taxes are at their lowest point in 50 years. Some have said 60 years. Republicans answer this with their old bromide, “It isn’t that we are being taxed more it’s that we are spending more.” Well, so what? Isn’t the 3rd most populated country in the world at 310 million people expected to spend more just based on sheer census numbers?
As far as the $14.3 trillion deficit Republicans keep holding up as a taunt to Barack Obama and the Democrats, what they fail to tell the American people it that it is they, not Barack Obama, who ran up over half of that accumulated deficit in 8 years of Bush-Cheney and 12 years of Republican control of Congress.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/running-in-the-red-how-the-us-on-the-road-to-surplus-detoured-to-massive-debt/2011/04/28/AFFU7rNF_story.html
So, screw the tax issue and screw the deficit non-issue. Since Republicans like Gingrich told David Gregory on Meet the Press that he wants to be the pay check president, not the food stamp president just how does he or anyone in either party plan to add jobs and create livable wages for millions of Americans?
The answer is simple: Spend on a crash program comparable to that of the Manhattan Project in the 1940s and rebuild our crumbling infrastructure. Why are we still saddled with a broken, inadequate electrical grid system? Who will repair and rebuild our roads and highways, collapsing levees and dams, modernize our water treatment and delivery systems, repair leaking sewage and waste systems, rebuild the decaying schools and hospitals, subway and rail systems, train new teachers, doctors, nurses and provide health care for not just the 50 million with zero coverage, but for all citizens in America?
Nobody can convince me that all of the above won’t create millions of jobs for truckers, cement and concrete businesses, welders, electricians, engineers, teachers, college professors, building contractors, plumbers, steel industries, auto industries (including electric, hybrid and hydrogen powered) vehicles.
Yet, Republicans are on a crusade, not to help America, but to bring down the first president in decades who is committed to bringing America into the 21st Century while Republican/Tea Partyers want to tear down our government and our democracy and take us back to the Scopes Monkey Trial days.
That made me laugh out loud.
Thanks!!
Those types of laws are considered progressive legislation?
thanks joelmael! i’ll do what i can (watch for my diaries), but it’s up to all of us to make the change we want to see. if we want a real alternative to orthodox economics, then it’s up to us to spend less time reading epi and more time reading the list i posted above!
I think there’s a bigger problem here that isn’t being discussed. The fact that these groups are having to look towards Peterson to fund their operations is largely a function of the decline of the labor unions.
Kevin Drum had a must-read story what the loss of the labor unions as the anchor funding source for the Democratic Party has meant:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-labor-union-decline
As the labor unions decline, so the left comes unmoored. It’s possible to take money from all sorts of different sources and not be corrupted by it if your organization is not dependent upon it for survival. And as long as labor was the financial mainstay of the left, and the major source of money flowing through the liberal institutional system (in one way or another), it served to anchor many institutions and limit how far they could drift before jeopardizing their biggest contributors.
Now that the unions are fighting for their lives, organizations that operate in the C3 world only know how to do one other thing: put their hands out to rich people and corporate money. It’s pretty amazing to me that a bunch of liberal economists don’t see the inherent conflict this creates with their mission. You can’t count on corporate America, or a few wealthy people no matter how well-intentioned, to fund the other side in a class war.
Until organizations accept the challenge of finding a funding source that is consistent with their mission, there is no hope of ever being effective at achieving their objectives. It is the major challenge now before every liberal organization, and as far as I know, we’re one of the only ones grappling with that. There are few successful models. It’s a huge challenge.
Moreover, it’s not like there’s a lot of time to figure things out. There’s an active war on to get rid of all organizations that engage in effective liberal activism. Soon, organizations that have not accepted this challenge as a central part of their mission will either be forced into the arms of Pete Peterson (and others like him) in order to stay alive, or shut their doors.
Marvelous comments. I am so proud of this community.
x2
mattcarmody, please see my comment above (@June 4th, 2011 at 3:16 am). the issues go a lot deeper re social security solvency. please, i beg you, be willing to consider that what we’ve been told is that up is down and it’s time to approach all these questions with an open mind. please see my list of links (@June 4th, 2011 at 9:49 am).
EPI’s damage control doesn’t seem to be working very well. Maybe they should hire well-known progressive Lanny Davis to help them with that.
The tax deal sucked, we all know it. I cannot support it, I will not support voting for or re-electing President Obama, I cannot support your organization.
Is that clear enough for you?
Oh, exactly. I suspect that the main virtue of having this post promoted is that it gives the Pups the chance to discredit it six ways from sundown, and right out in the open.
Yes, wholeheartedly agree. And that’s why YOU Jane, and your memebership drive, is so, so important IMO.
If we can’t count on labor organizations to fund progressive, working folks friendly organizations, then we have to go directly to the working folks themselves.
That’s why IMO, as I’ve said, I believe our only hope in turning this around is going to be through you (or some other org like you) that can build a big enough organization of working folks that are willing to fund it, just as they had to fund labor unions.
So, if you’re a working person wondering how we can get our voice back, join FDL. Trust me, we build this place (or some other place if Jane decides to move elsewhere) up in membership and a counted on steady stream of funding that doesn’t rely on the rich, we will have a real, uncompromised progressive voice that WILL GET HEARD.
Mishel should be here answering comments.
EPI is engaged in special pleading here. At best EPI was mealy mouthed on the December tax cut deal. Unemployment benefits would have passed before Christmas, just as they had before after symbolic GOP protest. And the payroll tax cut was an unnecessary sop to the anti-tax and anti-pulic sector crowd. High taxes are simply not the cause of the economic stagnation we are in. That is the central false premise that the December deal validated and EPI could not bring itself to condemn. EPI produces some useful data, but politically they are beltway liberals, still thinking it is 1974 and they have some modicum of access to real policy makers. If we had a new labor movement and a new labor party, then Keynesian style reforms would be back on the agenda. The ruling class turns to keynesian solutions when it faces a viable opposition from the left, not when Mishel, Bernstein, krugman, et. al. make rational arguments. Logic and evidence are the problem. Power is.
Or well know progressive Rahm Emanuel to call us all fucking retards.
I note that this has all the markings of a typical hit-and-run post where dialogue is not intended. The big giveaway is that this is the poster’s only activity on FDL.
there are economists who are — and have been for years — doing this work without selling out. and they have a very different take on the macroeconomics of our current situation. the internet makes their work available to us. fwiw, i’ve been writing about them for over a year… and i’ve vounteered to attempt to
I am a relatively new member of this site and I want to thank you and others who provide the truth to us who are less informed. Your insight and analysis are very valuable to me as I come out of the conservative mindset. Keep up the good and important work.
That is the plan.
That is exactly the plan.
FDL had a piece at the time of the “holiday” with a quote from a R who clearly said they would not bring it back to the former levels because they considered it a tax.
They’ve been trying to gut it for the last 50 years. WITH ABSOLUTELY NO Fing LUCK!!!
But with one stroke, the dominoes will now start falling. And they will finally have that SS loot.
And as you said, remove the cap. Poof, “problem” solved.
They won’t eliminate any of these programs. NOT ONE! Because you can’t milk the cow once it’s eliminated. Just privatize it, and that milk be coming for years and years.
Medicare, I bet the Dims and O have already made their backroom deals.
SS, we will see, but I’m betting money on that it gets privatized too.
“I’m just waiting for these veal pen groups to outright start calling Bill Clinton and extreme left of the left liberal as that’s what they’re already implying now by saying that Clinton-era tax rates must not happen and instead they want to advance not only Bush policy but praise cutting Social Security on top of that.”
Hell, they’ve already been crapping all over FDR for two decades — in fact, Clinton and his New Democrat/Third Way bullshit started that going — so of course the next move of the corporatists looking for big business donations is to paint Bill Clinton as Leon Trotsky.
Its easy. Payment for services rendered.
Jeffrey St. Clair has written extensively on the process by which the major environmental protection organizations have been bought off. Some say that the SEIU leadership has been bought off. Its just part of an ongoing process. Living as a professional leader in a non-profit can get kind of thin after a while, and most of those leaders eventually start looking around for ways to juice up the income of their organizations so you can live up to your ideal of your self importance. Little by little you have to start compromising and shading things to keep the favor of the funding sources. Some of the child advocates I used to know would tell me, “You need to be careful what you say. We have to work with these people.”
I don’t know anything about the EPI, but I have been noticing some funny, unexpected points of view expressed on the “New Deal 2″ website of the Roosevelt Foundation.
At my age, having been lied to and conned so many times, I don’t trust anybody, and I am always ready to believe the worst until proven otherwise. Recent research indicates that depressed pessimists tend to see the world more accurately that idealistic optimists (such as people who really believe in hope).
“EPI is proud of its long history as a progressive organization
By: Economic Policy Institute Friday June 3, 2011 4:52 pm”
While I appreciate the fact that you feel compelled to articulate your position, I am also suspicious of the fact that you…feel compelled to articulate your position.
You further state, “How EPI’s participation in the Peterson Foundation summit (and the funding we received) can be said to have influenced our policy position remains a mystery to me…”
It seems axiomatic that being inside of an organization like Peterson’s runs the very real risk of being captured by it. I’d say there’s about a 100% chance that if they’re letting you inside, they’re interested in pushing your organization their direction.
Only you (meaning the Brass running EPI) know how far you will bend, but until I have seen real, substantive, inside-the-tent, pushback, I will remain skeptical. Ultimately, your actions will tell the tale. Just like our silver-tongued President’s did…
The fact that he isn’t — or that even the intern flunky they tasked to do this hit-and-run diary didn’t bother to hang around after posting it — speaks volumes.
“there are economists who are — and have been for years — doing this work without selling out.”
The problem is that without a big megaphone, they get drowned out.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Yup. In an era where Citizens United has taken away what little restraint existed on rich corporate and conservative interests, and where the IRS may be the one thing standing between them and the irreversible takeover of our democracy, the decline of the unions is a big deal.
The organizer of an ancient Palestinian social movement once said, “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”
He also had some unique ideas about organizing a social movement and finding a reliable funding source. The more your organization costs, the more funding you will need. That is where your first choice has to be made.
It’s like a classic DKos hit-and-run diary posted by some low-ranking staffer of a politician. One-way communication only. (One reason I loved Elizabeth Edwards at DKos was that she actually was a true Kossack — she got engaged in discussions there.)
The people who have posted these apologia don’t even sound like people. This EPI stuff, for example,sounds like ground up focus group twaddle seasoned with rhetoric extender.
You know, it kinda fits with my first intuition, early in O’s presidency, right after the appointment of the triumvirate and the meeting with PharMA, It was like Obama was the guy in the movie who tears off this rubberized humanoid mask he’s been wearing and the repulsive alien creature is visible to all.
Everybody knows repulsive humanoid monsters can’t write.
bill clinton was a star performer at the peterson foundation fiscal summit. i listened (and posted a diary here on it). his presentation was seriously bat-shit-crazy… in fact it was so bad, i made a transcript of the damn thing (since there didn’t seem to be any public one available). in the hopes someone would hold him accountable for his nonsensical statements.
http://my.firedoglake.com/selise/2011/05/25/peterson-foundation-2011-fiscal-summit-today-watch-live/
http://www.netrootsmass.net/2011/06/bill-clinton-deficit-hawk-at-peterson-foundation-2011-fiscal-summit/
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=14721
“President Obama won policies that will put or keep money in the pockets of the unemployed and middle and low-income families, which will increase spending and create jobs.” Oh yea..and how’s that workin’ for ya? 9.1% unemployment yesterday..
“showing that the top fifth of income earners received 65% of the Bush tax cuts, while the bottom 20% only received 1% of the tax cuts.” Well yea!! You can give a tax break on only those who actually PAY income taxes..which happen to be the top 5%..You cannot give tax breaks to those who pay NO income taxes, which happen to be 47% of the taxpaying population.\
Your arguments are grossly flawed..you need to study Milton Friedman,
Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams
that’s entirely up to us. we can change that by working together. i can provide an introduction to some REALLY excellent sources — i spent a lot of time reading nonsense to find them… i’d like to share what i’ve found.
To be truly progressive, an organization has to draw clear lines in the sand related to fundamental values that cannot be compromised — and stick to those lines and values. Extension of the Bush tax cuts was anti-progressive and broke a promise. An organization cannot cannot rationalize such an act as acceptable, after the fact, by stating that, given the circumstances, Obama got some stimulus. Particularly when the action further jeopardized SS and Medicare.
Obama, from the outset, has made a number of disastrous anti-progressive decisions that have resulted inevitably in him being cornered into making even more disastrous decisions. These decisions are interrelated, not independent. INTERRELATED. He has to be held responsible for SERIAL irresponsibility. He has to be held accountable for the whole cascading series of stupid fucking anti-progressive decisions he’s made.
An organization can’t be progressive if it takes each stupid, even evil, decision one-by-one and rationalizes it away by saying, given the circumstances, he got what he wanted. Earth to EPI: It’s not what HE wants. It’s what we want. The relevant question is did WE get what WE wanted. NO, we didn’t. So, fuck him.
I fully agree. We need to turn the conversation from deficits to jobs. But I fear the dems don’t have the stomach for it.
does he know that the diary was front paged?
maybe i’m just an old softy, but without more info, i’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and see if he shows up later. and if not, well, then i’ll join in the chorus!
You have a point. Acceptance of Pete Peterson’s money does not automatically make your organization one of his courtiers. FDL accepts, for example, advertising from organizations that want access to its readers, but which advocate starkly more conservative policies.
Nevertheless, accepting funding from organizations adamantly opposed to your mission necessarily opens you to legitimate criticism about what that support buys. The same would be true of the ACLU, EFF or EPIC were they to accept large donations from Dick Cheney under the rubric of “advancing open government”. He will not credibly have had a change of heart – even with a new one – but they or your organization might, regardless of the Orwellian label given to such money.
It is your obligation proactively to state publicly at the time you receive such controversial donations that they have not and will not alter your mission or blunt your just criticism because of them. Some donors, however, carry with them a pall darker and dirtier than Pigpen’s. When their stated missions are so contrary to yours, no denial will be considered credible.
In fact, turning down such contributions would provide you a valuable resource: the ability to broadcast that you turned them down, to deny them the Mark McCormack-like ability to put your logo on their golf sleeve, and allow to ask your true supporters to make up the difference and then some.
amen!
Jared Bernstein, biden’s ex-chief economic adviser:
“There was no appetite for them in the Obama admin in the midst of the worst recession since the Great Depression and there’s a lot less now.”
http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/05/30/jared-bernstein-lets-slip-interesting-info-about-wh-economic-views/
When I write a diary, I hang around to see if there are comments. Doesn’t matter if it’s front paged or not. It’s only a courtesy to your readers to respond to them.
Bernstein’s relevant quote:
“There will be no WPA-type programs in our near future. There was no appetite for them in the Obama admin in the midst of the worst recession since the Great Depression and there’s a lot less now.”
Z
It is no doubt an issue. The left does not have the support of all right wing and Faux News. It is not clear to me that all left organizations can handle the funding challenge. And I suspect there is another problem: political organizations strive for purity. So if you don’t agree with my solutions, I will go elsewhere or you can go elsewhere. That will splinter the left even further.
Taking your opponents’ money is not being even-handed, BTW. It frustrates your mission by allowing them to call themselves one of your supporters. That confuses a gullible public and blunts the criticism of others, if not your own. More damningly, it empowers politicians who do the same and makes moot your efforts to persuade them to follow your advice, not the likes of Peterson. How that promotes your mission is beyond me.
Your logic is grossly flawed..
You should probably ask some of these same economists if they would have taken the Peterson money to keep their doors open in this current environment. I can guarantee you that you will be surprised by their answer. If you think they are not struggling with this, and that the loss of labor money is not problem for them, it reflects a serious disconnect with what they are facing right now.
In order for them to create your slideshow, they have to be able to feed themselves and their families and pay their staffs. You may want to open up a dialog with them about this before you assume that they have unlimited time and labor to devote to things like this in the future, especially in a world of constricting resources. “Organizing” them is only a small fraction of the work involved. And that work has value. Someone has to pay for it, somehow, unless they are rich dilettantes with unlimited free time. And I know they are not.
Yes, this is a good criticism. I hope EPI takes a good look at it. I wish they had someone here who could answer it.
I sent an email at noon to the person at EPI who put up the diary to let them know it would be on the front page at 1pm.
Yeah, agree. IMO it’s the BIGGEST deal. It’s either directly or indirectly related to a LOT of our political and economic problems IMO.
Yes, it would be another mistake were they to post this as if it were a press release. They must know that posting it is engaging the blogosphere. Failing to defend its claims would be worse than not making them.
I have exactly zero idea who Lawrence Mishel is. Lawrence Mishel, if you’re going to come by and respond, I’d like to know what your economic record is.
Did you write anything prior to the economic crash that warned people what was going to, or could happen?
What did you write on the housing bubble?
What did you write about the Bush tax cuts at the time?
What did you write about the several wars and their economic impact?
What did you write on Social Security?
What did you write on healthcare?
What did you do to lobby effectively for your ideas?
Who are you, Lawrence Mishel?
Sad, what the pursuit of corporate campaign cash does to a person. And now we’re seeing it with the Veal Penners — with the decline of the unions, they turn to the corporations.
x2
That is only true to an extent. Right now the Democratic party is a better choice than the Repubs. Has the national party done anything at all to support the recall elections in WI. I know for a fact that they have not put any money into placing the anti-labor SB-5 here in Ohio. The party made a conscious effort to abandon Fla, Ohio, WI, MI and Penn. I personally believe that they were wanting to have a Repub house to run against in 2012. I wish there was an audit of the DNC money for 2012. I am sure they had a war chest for starting 2012. They went straight for implementing the Repub Rommneycare model. We need to start taking the lead from Labor. Focus on progressive issue and candidates. Primary where it makes sense. Don’t give to the national organs. Backing a party that toys with cutting SSN and Medicare because they have the tag Democratic is counter productive.
Citizen bluedot12:
They will never send anyone out to interact with their audience, that’s how self-identified “progressive” or “grassroots” or “liberal” think tanks remain “progressive” or “grassroots” or “liberal”…they take money from the banksters and oil hucksters, create massive “studies” that advance and support fascist intersts and defend them in televised conferences among themselves or with televised, respectable talkin’ heads.
thanks!
So am I.
But this propaganda is fairly weak to begin with.
May work on HP.
But posting it here is just absurd.
And such useless talking points to boot.
Can anyone be so clueless to post such drivel here at FDL?
Were they actually trying to post to HP and they made a mistake?
I don’t know.
But I am just amazed at their complete and utter incompetence. Just amazed. And dazed by their “strategy”. Maybe they think repeating the lies enough times will make them “true”.
Yup. As the late Sam Rayburn told a wavering freshman colleague who balked at opposing the will of one of his chief contributors, “Son, if you can’t take their money, drink their whiskey, screw their women, and then vote against ‘em, you don’t deserve to be here.”
Of course, that was back before even a backbencher congresscritter’s seat cost at least $500,000 to defend and $1 million to win, and Senate seats take at least $5 to $10 million to win nowadays.
The above was supposed to be a response to Earl at 11:19 am
And, I agree with the rest of the comments by Earl and bluedot too
Why John, you can join Mr. Misel on Facebook. He must be somebody if he is on facebook, right? And he is on the wikipedia! He is a somebody’s somebody.
I would be shocked if Mishel himself posted this. He may have never even seen it.
At most, he probably reviewed what some intern wrote for him, signed off on it, and told the intern to post it.
“one that is not a debate between the centrists like Alice Rivlin and the Heritage Foundation.”
Rivlin has wanted to cut Social Security and said it publicly since her arrival in Washington from Transylvania. he may be be big Pete;s girlfriend, because they have complementary wrinkles.
I apologize that this is anecdotal but I have a personal view as to why this recession is different – I started working (electronics) in 1972 and until 2008 I have always been able to find work, regardless of the state of the economy. Granted, some jobs paid better than others, but Always enough to put a roof overhead and food on the table. Since then, however, nothing. Today’s economy is very different from what I’m used to. IMHO that 9.1% stat is bogus, my own opinion is that the U6 number is closer to the truth.
Enough of that, however. I fully agree with others above who think the SS payroll tax ‘cut’ was & is intended solely to start defunding SS (obvious to me when it was first proposed) & that the EPI is yet another DLC plant designed solely to add yet more corporate-think to the Democratic party’s philosophy. They may pose as the ‘enemy of my enemy’ at times but they’re sure as hell not on my or any liberal’s side.
A-yep. These groups rely heavily on unpaid interns, who almost by definition have to come from very well-off families willing to subsidize their working for free for progressive groups. Which again means depending on the uncertain charity of rich people who may not share your aims.
You also have to consider the overall contexts, and incentives.
FDL and BP: Advertising provides only a small part of what FDL needs to pay its staff and cover its operating expenses. Most of those expenses are covered by our supporters, who do so because they share a particular set of values. If we were to suddenly start putting out pro-BP messages, we’d lose the major part of our funding. Thus, we sent people to the Gulf to report on the BP oil spill, did extensive coverage, and responded to our readers’ needs and wishes, not BP’s. Losing BP’s advertising would have negligible impact on us. Losing our community’s trust and support would. Our mission is tied to the objectives of our primary funding source.
Economists and Peterson: Most of the liberal economic think tanks were supported in large part by the unions, so when the economists (and the unions) clashed with the Democratic Party, they knew the unions would still be there. With union support getting smaller and smaller, that means ties to the Democratic Party become more important to these organizations in order to still play a part in the political process. It then becomes a matter of political “access” (as Yves piece mentioned) that can then be monetized with foundations and rich donors, who love that kind of stuff. No unions, no money/no Democrats, no access. Or, they can join Third Way and sell themselves straight to corporate America (which is really just a more direct form of the Democratic Party money, now that they aren’t funded by the unions either). The mission (advancing liberal economic principles) is at odds with the objectives of their primary funding source.
Any way you slice it, the bottom line is: your funding source has to be tied to your mission. They can’t be in conflict, or you’re screwed.
“Some say that the SEIU leadership has been bought off.”
I would not be surprised.
In Wisconsin, the labor leaders are the ones who calmed things down and prevented a local and national strike.
They are the ones who pushed for ONLY getting recalls.
They are the ones who prevented any effective response to the plutocrats destroying lives and families.
The fascists wage war to take away people’s livelihoods all based on lies and problems they created. Then they ask us to “share” the burden, ie. we pay for their mistakes, and they pay nothing.
And the labor leaders prevented any meaningful response.
If there had been a strike in Wisconsin, the rich would have been crying uncle in a few days. Because without the workers they are nothing. They can’t even wipe themselves.
Trumpka and the other leaders are a lot like O. All talk. And their actions betray hose words and just put more money into their pockets. All the while the real workers try to survive.
“So, fuck him.”
Second.
Your argument assumes that giving the wealthy a break on taxes that are already too low is an efficient way to promote any policy other than that of reducing the taxes paid by the wealthy.
Tax breaks inherently favor the wealthy. Reducing their tax burden is found money for them; it is often more lucrative than their investments. They do nothing for median income earners and those who earn less; they have no effect on payroll taxes, which the rich rarely pay or notice, but which are sometimes a greater percentage burden on the poor and middle class than the wealthy pay overall.
Tax breaks forego badly needed revenue. They are an expenditure that empowers the wealthy while doing little for Main Street. The wealthy give the money saved to their investment bankers. The middle class and poor immediately spend it because they have no other choice, a consequence with immediate and profound positive effects on a slow economy not matched by making Goldman or Citi or its largest customers wealthier.
There are far more efficient multipliers than tax cuts, if accelerating economic activity or aiding the majority of citizens were the aim. In many cases, it would include a tax increase on the wealthy, with increased expenditure on the grossly failing American infrastructure, failings less apparent in Georgetown than in SE Washington or across America.
I guess I’m a nobody. I’m not the facebook, or the plaxo, or the twitter, or the linkedin, or even myspace
Larry Mishel did a great piece here during the health care debate, debunking Jonathan Gruber’s work on the excise tax:
http://my.firedoglake.com/lawrencemishel/2010/01/12/employer-health-costs-do-not-drive-wage-trends/
Marcy wrote about it here, along with a comment Larry made about an exchange with Gruber, where Gruber admitted his work was flawed:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/01/12/marcy-wheeler-teevee-gruber-and-the-cadillac-plan/
Gruber was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to serve as the intellectual justification for the excise tax.
Again, the unions were very much opposed to the excise tax, and funded a lot of the work debunking Gruber. It was an extremely valuable contribution to the health care conversation. It also put Larry in dutch with the White House, who are now going after EPI’s donors.
Have we heard yet from the EPI to defend this diary?
Very nice. And yes, scaling your operation is a critical part of the challenge.
i’ll ask your question right now…
for what it’s worth, i sent out an email before i made the original suggestion. i asked only to please let me know if they they thought it was a bad idea, that i didn’t know if anything would come of it. i got 2 supportive replies and none negative.
also, i don’t think organizing is the real work. the real work is already being done by the economists (some of whom i listed above). i want to share what i’m learning.
btw, i strongly recommend this youtube to you. it’s what bill mitchell had to say about his blogging:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvvmzulIcZc
Except that today, Rayburn’s warning seems to apply only to voting against the wishes and needs of average constituents. It seems never to apply to the wealthy, which suggests that a lot of Congresscritters should not be in Congress.
I’m only responding to the words he/she/they wrote *g*
If he’s going to say “I” he’d better not come back later, and say “it wasn’t me”
thank you for the info. that’s enough to put me in the chorus.
I thought I remembered that name. Lawrence Mishel wrote an article here awhile back disputing Paul Krugman’s interpretation of his work on labor economics. Here’s an article I wrote on that issue, though I covered a lot of other ground there (the mention of Mishel’s study is about halfway down). I don’t have a link handy to the FDL diary, but I remember that’s why I noticed Mishel’s study in the first place. IIRC, he did interact a bit with the commenters on that one.
Ah, that’s the article! (See my reply to JiS below).
I think you made that loud and clear when ads from BP and others first started to appear.
The proof is in what comes out of the oven. FDL, like the NYT or the Guardian, walks its talk every day. A bland, unsupported press release in a blog forum, like this one from EPI, is not walking the talk. If it remains unsupported with commentary, it would rather bolster Yves’ criticism and the further criticism that EPI is ignorant of modern media whose use could most leverage its stated mission.
can you name just one of “these groups” that among my list? don’t think so.
Thanks Jane
I’ll have to re-read those
All I know is, is that Yves Smith has provided me with very valuable, and timely, and incredibly accurate information over the last few years. And I’ll tend to give her word on economic issues greater weight than someone I don’t know
heh, I just saw that. Yep, nobody can question that Larry Mishel has done great work. And he did interact with commenters after he wrote that post. In fact, one of his comments (about his exchange with Jonathan Gruber) was a critical piece of the health care story that should have gotten a lot more attention. That is, if any of the major health care commentators were actually committed to telling the true story of what was going on. For a variety of reasons having to do with both their funding and access, they weren’t.
Yes, excise taxes are remarkably regressive compared to an income tax that increases with income or to reasonable taxes on inheritances, large gifts, and passive income such as capital gains, which overwhelmingly benefit the wealthy.
George W. Bush’s primary tax focus was to remove or lower such taxes. As the scion of 150+ years of Wall Street – Bush, Walker, Harriman – wealth, he understood that since he was a toddler. That lowering taxes on the wealthy shifted the tax burden to those who were not, or crippled government, was an intended side benefit.
Yves concurred 100% with the critique of Gruber, as she noted here:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/01/links-11609-3.html
Well you get no argument from me on that one — Yves knocked that one out of the park, and everyone else is committing a bunch of unforced errors.
Needless to say, I think FDL and the Guardian do better jobs at walking their talk than does the NYT, whose “liberal” and hard journalism credentials, while not as dissipated as the Washington Post’s, are faint.
Haha!!
[I've got thirteen thousand people reading my blog, I don't think that many read all academic work combined] Didn’t use quote marks cause I’m sure that’s not the exact quote since going from memory, but it was something along those lines.
People power!!
Only thing that scares me is, TPTB are frantically, right now I guarantee it, trying to figure out a way to stop this threat that the toobz presents. They’re trying to figure out a way to stop that threat in a way that enough Americans will “buy” so as to make it easy (i.e. somehow limiting speech on the toobz in the name of national security is their likely explanation).
But if they can’t figure out a way to do it that most Americans will buy it, they’re at some point going to just do it anyway because the threat is too great, I’m afraid. That’s what scares me.
Yes, that’s the prevailing thinking and the reason why Republicans, as usual, are winning the war of words. They have issued their marching orders to the rest of the country and the gullible mainstream media who are chasing Sarah Palin’s bus. Democrats, stupefied as usual, are going right along with this subterfuge and parroting the same message because they have yet to grow any cojones.
What Republicans are saying is pretty simple: “We can’t afford anything and we can’t afford to fix anything. Those kids and grand kids that we feign concern for over leaving huge deficits will instead inherit a collapsing country that will cost quadruple to fix tomorrow what it would cost today.”
In the meantime, Republicans have introduced dozens of bills in Congress that will a) Lower the top income tax rate from 35% to 25%; b)Lower the already obscenely low 15% capital gains tax from 15% to 10%. They long ago tapped into the cheap Chinese and Indian labor with no burdensome things like fair pay and health benefits or workplace safety conditions.
There are, by the way, 2,144 bills in Congress, many of which have not reached the Government Printing Office. This is an all-out blitzkrieg by Republicans to eviscerate the remnants of America’s middle class by axing worker collective bargaining right, pensions and health care benefits — keystones in keeping a healthy workforce in the U.S.
What’s the best way to deflect from the jobs issue that Republicans have every political reason to perpetuate? Talk about the deficit and shut up about rebuilding and caring for American citizens.
What does it say about human compassion when one political arm of the country, the House of Representatives controlled by Republicans, say to the thousands of injured and homeless people who were devastated by tornadoes in Missouri, Oklahoma, Alabama and other hard-hit states, “You won’t get a dime in disaster aid until we force the Democrats and Barack Obama to cave in to cutting Medicare, privatize Social Security and block grant Medicaid?”
Republicans are America’s version of al Qaeda, only worse because they want to murder our citizens a little more slowly.
It would be more accurate to insert “[sic]” after the description that Rivlin or Heritage were “centrist”, or to put it in quotes as I did. As with calling Otto stupid was an insult to stupid people, calling their views “centrist” is an insult to centrists, of which there are few in public life today. Main Street, however, is full of them. Mr. Obama is also right-center, at best, not centrist let alone the “leftist” that his rightwing critics call him. They are hard right, at least by the standards of those who still know that the fifty yard line is in the middle of the whole field, not the halfway point between the loudest shouters.
Exactly EoH.
Obama may be to the left of the batshit crazy Republicans of today, but that does NOT make him left wing. Or even centrist.
IMO he is to the right of Reagan, and definitely Nixon. Both of those were Republicans.
The entire political landscape taken by both parties today are to the right of the 50 yard line. Contrary to the naysayers (bullshit artists) that sill insist that we’ve always just managed to take small incremental steps of progress and that’s the best we can do. Bullshit, all the incremental steps over the past 3 decades have been TO THE RIGHT. (And I don’t know that I’d call them incremental steps, either.)
earlofhuntingdon June 4th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
Without getting into details (non-disclosure agreement) a company I worked for did work for a financial services company that worked very hard to get the Bush tax cuts passed
(you can read between the lines to see who benefited)
Doesn’t it just make you want to barf when you see puke institutions like Moody’s lower America’s credit rating at the behest of Republicans in the House?
Yet, this same organization were feeling all orgasmic in giving AAA ratings to Bush’s Potemkin Village economy when they scammed everyone with collateralized debt obligations, junk bonds, hedge funds, credit default swaps and other crap gobbledygook Ponzi schemes and swindles that brought our country to near bankruptcy.
“Oh gosh, Moody’s is about to lower our nation’s credit rating again! Hurry, hurry, get rid of that Marxist Socialist Medicare right now and start issuing worthless Paul Ryan vouchers!”
what is the time frame for this process as you have described it? iow, is it something recent or of long standing?
This is Larry Mishel, President of EPI.
The reason I wasn’t here responding is that I only found out about this after noon today and was otherwise occupied (actually, at synogogue). It’s not as if this posting and the timing was arranged with us ahead of time so that I could coordinate my schedule.
Reading these comments mostly makes me sad that people are so unfamiliar with our work. The policies that you seem to favor are ones we’ve done lots of research about and advocated. We’re actually the most prominent source of analysis behind many of the policies.Public Option. Public service employment (government directly creating jobs). Fighting the excise tax on health (thanks for noting that Jane). TYhe importance of the extended UI program, not only for helping the unemployed but for creating jobs.
The economists that people seem to like are, well, folks who would look very favorably on EPI’s work, whether it be the Levy Institute, CEPR or others. I urge everybody to explore our work at our website.
Jane is certainly correct that the funding base for progressive economics is certainly narrow and narrowing further.The weakening of unions is an enormous problem for the nation and for the progressive movement. i’m proud to say that labor funding for EPI has not faltered, and Jane is wrong that this is a reason why we would accept Peterson Foundation funding for that project. The claim that we’ve positioned ourselves to obtain corporate money is simply not true. We’ve never received much corporate money (less than 5% of our revenues and that is not from any mainstream businesses) and don’t expect to. We don’t curry favor with the White House or anyone, for that matter. Our challenge is that the foundation base for progressive economics work has narrowed over the years.
Yes, I wrote that post, with the help of some other EPIers.
The reason for doing so is that I wanted to correct the record and believe that many of the folks on FDL should be avid users of EPI material and allies in our work.
Larry Mishel
It’s wholly admirable that Mitchell is talking to the public on a blog rather than simply operating in an economist echo chamber.
That does not address the issue of how he, or other liberal economists, can sustain their work as the power and size of the labor unions declines.
Are you suggesting that Mitchell’s work is not supported by labor unions because he has a blog? My guess is he can afford to have a blog BECAUSE of money flowing, in one form or another, from labor unions.
Welcome and thanks for commenting. As your staff would know from the posting rules, posts are published immediately, so the need to respond to them in a timely way is obvious, though not all of them make the front page.
“Purity” is not the issue. Credibility is the issue. As with politicians, wealthy supporters, and blogs, comments from think tanks are valuable when they are consistent with professed aims, actions, and past views. That funding from controversial sources would be controversial should be obvious. We appreciate comments that expand on your post and which respond to other comments.
The timing issue I mentioned is because we got a note from jane saying “We’re going to be putting it on the front page today at 1pm ET.” and asking whether we would be available for responding.
Not sure why you say “Purity is not the issue’ since I never raised it as an issue
Larry
hey OFG! thanks for watching!
there are transcripts of the whole thing:
http://www.netrootsmass.net/fiscal-sustainability-teach-in-and-counter-conference/
here you go:
It started in the late 70′s, but Reagan took it to a new level.
It’s been downhill ever since.
i don’t know and you don’t either. if you are interested, there’s no harm in asking. i don’t think it’s fair to guess.
what i did say is this: “there are economists who are — and have been for years — doing this work without selling out. and they have a very different take on the macroeconomics of our current situation. the internet makes their work available to us.”
bill mitchell hasn’t sold out and he’s not the only one. i’m persuaded that more than any other economists i’ve read, they have a better handle on fed govt deficit spending (and taxation and more) than anyone else.
maybe i’m wrong about that.
but i’m here to argue that progressives are missing out on a great resource by not taking advantage of what they make available.
here’s a couple of my diaries for some background:
Why Paul Krugman, and we, need to take MMT economists seriously.
USG deficits: The Economics, the Politics, the Banksters and You.
thanks for replying
good to know.
Larry -
Thank you for being a part of the dialogue. We definitely need more discussion between people who call themselves “progressives.” Clearly, not everyone who calls themselves that agrees with each other.
I am familiar with EPI work, and don’t think the organization is as progressive as advertised. For what ever reason, there is a notion that not being a Randian extremist makes one left of center. Things like the public option or extending UI for one year were at best weak compromises.
If the statement simply said “non-partisan” rather than “progressive,” the response would have been different. Because to some of us, the EPI positions are relatively centrist, not progressive.
The note I sent said we’d be putting it on the front page at 1pm. I sent it as a courtesy so someone from EPI could be here if they wanted to. We normally do not notify people when we put things on the front page. The diary, as EoH notes, has been up since yesterday, and people have been commenting since then.
The half-life of comment threads here is best measured in minutes. While I can understand being caught unawares when one’s article hits the front page (it’s happened to me, too), this article was up as a diary for almost a day with no apparent interaction from the author.
I’m not complaining, but I think that part of the reason people here were seeing you as unresponsive was due to that time lag. It was the first thing I checked when I saw comments suggesting you weren’t being responsive. It was only because you had posted an article here before, and had interacted with commenters there, that I didn’t think those commenters were right.
Okay, this is a good reply. IMO better than the post, but as one of the above commenters who is unfamiliar with your work, I just want to explain where my comment above comes from.
IMO, no progressive, NOT ONE, should ever utter the words “tax cuts create jobs” because that, IMO, plays right into the right wing’s hands and has been their rallying cry for decades. And there is just no data that supports it.
We are at war. It is an all out class war. Don’t let the fact that there’s no shooting (yet) going on fool you. We are at war and it’s a war we (the have nots) did NOT start. The rich have taken more and more and more and more of the pie and it’s left less pie for more people to fight over. And there number ONE mantra is LOW TAXES IS GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY. Bullshit. Low taxes are good for rich people. Period.
You may have thought the December “compromise” was the best deal that could be obatained. I disagree, but you don’t lose progressive cred with me for that. I think the unemployment benefits would’ve been extended “cleanly” just as I know the debt limit will increase “cleanly” if it had come/comes to that. But if a compromise was necessary, I would’ve held out for an extension of the tax cuts in exchange for the same amount of money that they cost being directed into a direct spending, infrastructure improving, program.
When you, or anyone that claims to be progressive, utter the words “tax cuts will results in jobs” you’ve lost me and my confidence because that is playing right into the hands of the folks we’re at war with.
“You may have thought the December “compromise” was the best deal that could be obtained”
I think the best deal would have been to simply do nothing – let the tax cuts expire and return to Clinton-era taxation. I see it as totally contradictory for EPI to actually praise cutting the Social Security tax while claiming to be against cutting Social Security. If they wanted to protect Social Security, they wouldn’t have cheered for it being undermined.
larry, my issue stands: epi lent it’s name to the peterson foundation “fiscal sustainability” nonsense. it’s especially dangerous nonsense now… when we need big deficits and we will need them for a long time. why help the deficit terrorists with their fear mongering? that one issue undermines the ability of progressives to deal rationally with the issue because they are always having to apologize for proposing fed govt. deficit spending… why not teach national accounting and the fallacy of composition instead of adopting the false peterson paradigm?
http://www.cfeps.org/pubs/pn/pn0601.htm
I wasn’t being critical of you Jane, for sure. It was a courtesy for you to provide notice of being posted on the front page. Hey, I stayed late at work to be able to work on the post and get it posted on Friday. I wanted to have a response. Sorry if my committments on Friday night and Saturday morning made me unavailable.
Again, I urge people to check out our actual work. There’s a good reason why labor, civil rights and community-based organizations rely heavily on our work.
Signing off today.
Larry
Larry
Yeah, I agree that’s a good point.
I didn’t really go there because I read a couple of comments upthread that I thought made that point, but yeah, it is another fair criticism IMO.
Like I said, EPI doesn’t have any progressive cred with me, it’s zero. I think they’re more centrist than progressive. It’s just in today’s bizarro world I suppose centrist seems progressive.
But the bottom line for me is no progressive should ever utter the line “tax cuts results in jobs.” Any tax cuts, any time. For one thing, there’s no data to support it (although in theory it’s certainly true), but more importantly, it’s like waving a white flag of surrender to the right wing. Once you agree that tax cuts creates jobs, then it’s easy for the response to be “there, you see, since tax cuts creates jobs there’s no need for anymore stimulus spending; we can just cut taxes some more.”
larry says the loss of labor money wasn’t even the issue for epi. so, as far as i can tell, it’s an issue that apparently has nothing to do with this thread.
i need more advil.
since I’m busy with my day job, I had HOPED that the 11 dimensional chess of 0-bummer during the health “care” AHIP sell out wouldn’t turn into a sell out to AHIP. yawn.
out here in seattle, what has finally put me to us vs. them mode was the drum beating for education reform from a certain cla$$ of democrat$ kissing bill gates’ a$$ – like usual – last fall, after gates was on the idiot box with michelle rhee and oprah pushing that idiotic movie “waiting for stuporman”.
I was sold out by Tip O’neil & Ronnie Raygun when I was a resident of Tip’s district almost 30 years ago – so I can work till I’m 67 so AHIP can fuck us and so Chase-BOA-Goldman can fuck us so Cheney’s Halliburton can fuck us –
this bush tax cut sell out this year was disgusting – YOU yuppie DLC neo-lib scum are NOT anyone I’ll ever give a penny to, a second to, or a vote to. Do the world a favor – just join the fascists, you pathetic sacks of shit.
rmm
seattle.
and these guys give cover for 0-bummer’s last minute midnight cave to the fascists on bush’s tax cuts – cuz we’ll shoot the unemployed!
I’ve been listening to yuppie sell outs from Sea to shining Sea for 30 years – I was 7 and 10 buck an hour cook in Boston during the 80′s, I”ve lived in Seattle for 20++ years.
I’ve done o.k. for growing up on welfare, BUT, these yuppie excuse making power point jockeys have been living well for 30 years of chasing the goal posts ever rightward.
to hell with their $ocial cla$$ of political pathetics, $ell out$, and some combination of each.
rmm
“ground up focus group twaddle seasoned with rhetoric extender”
I love this.
Like Yves, I was disappointed to see Larry’s name and emblem on the poster for the Peterson Summit. Unlike Yves, I harbored no suspicion that Larry and EPI had gone over to the dark side, and I realized that his reasons had to do with an attempt to expand the debate, such as it be, and to raise funds to further the activities of EPI.
Keep up the good work, Larry.
Thanks, Wendy. I think we have them on the run there.
I found the post fairly convincing; that’s why I read the comments. IOW, I wasn’t that familiar with the issue (although the Peterson Foundation involvement set off loud alarm bells.)
So while the Peterson Foundation involvement was curious (dare I say suspicious), to say the least, I was ready to be convinced – by cogent argument and evidence – that this organization was the progressive beacon it claimed to be.
HA!
What I got was exactly what I expected – the facts.
BTW, I am still trying to figure out what the hell this means: “We were the organization that incubated the ‘public option’…”
I, myself, have supported “Medicare for All” since I first heard the term – in the absence of a National Health Service.
Thanks for the facts.
wigwam, did you listen or watch the peterson summit? EPI’s presence did NOT expand the debate — in fact, i heard nothing to challenge the basic peterson foundation premise regarding “fiscal sustainability.” that premise is a false and dangerous one and any organization that contributes to furthering it is bound — and in my opinion deservedly so — to have their reputation severely affected.
i’d be ok with EPI accepting the $$ if the money had been used to fundamentally challenge the entire premise of the peterson foundation fiscal summit by 1) proposing a genuinely progressive budget that did not depend on flawed CBO forecasts and especially not on false notions regarding fiscal sustainability. and 2) challenging the other presentations.
So, lemme see if I got this right. All Mr. Mishel’s ‘interaction’ here amounted to was a restatement of their posted-on-fdl obfuscation and a nit-pick on the technical merits of one commenter’s use of the word “Purity”?
Gotcha. Effective messaging there.
Two reasons why your institute loses credibility:
1. You can’t understand why statements such as “President Obama won policies that will put or keep money in the pockets of the unemployed and middle and low-income families, which will increase spending and create jobs.” is the same neo-liberal tax cut message that has been put out for decades.
2. As with the Center for American Progress, can you understand at the very least, the hypocrisy in accepting grants from the Peter G. Peterson Foundation?
Perhaps the problem is the term “progressive” has been hijacked by the neo-liberals.
Where have you been? It isn’t just the Republicans who talk repeatedly about the deficit…so does President Obama. Where is his jobs plan instead of focusing on the deficit?
Maybe they already did
“the payroll tax is extremely regressive (which i’d think makes it a tax progressives would want to cut) and it makes hiring usa workers more expensive.”
Given the effective tax rate paid as one goes up the income curve is not a constantly increasing curve, a “flat” tax is in some ways an improvement – if only it could be applied to all income including investment income.
But the politics of Social Security requires the “we are all in this together” approach – no means test – but with a hidden progressive structure in the benefit formula – allowing resistance to claiming it is welfare because the GOP are so good at cutting “welfare” – approach. So that “tax” is a payroll deduction for a social insurance premium that we all pay
We’re no better / worse off under Obama cause other then lip service,
no problem really with:
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/12/business/la-fi-anthem12-2010feb12
Instead of simply this:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122265260912184329.html
bailed the wrongdoers and self-important idiots
coddled BP
trashed our Constitutional rights
I really doubt someone with that kind of commitment
is electable next time round.
Can we please nominate someone else?
http://sites.google.com/site/evernewecon
You keep saying his presentation was nuts – but I watched it – twice – again after your comment – and reviewed my notes. I agree he does not agree with you on “deficits do not count” – indeed saying the deficit projection must be fixed – but beyond that I found his comments nuanced and spreading the message of the left as to who gets hurt and how much in any cure to the projected deficits. He even mentioned the lack of a trade policy in treaties, border actions, and tax law enforcement and new code proposals (paraphrased from his 300 new treaties comment).
He did not dump on our political enemies or their ideas beyond saying he does not agree with those ideas – and did say he applauded the effort to come to an agreement – and that any agreement will require both new revenue and spending cuts.
I can only hope that Obama is as tough as Clinton, and I, would want him to be in these face offs with the GOP/Tea Party.
Spot on comment -
and being for a public option that was sold out before the process began – with nary a word about the Maryland Medicare waiver on the permission for a state board to set uniform across all care givers in the state health care service prices – stopping a major cause of medical inflation in its tracks, or about single payer in general or in particular in Vermont – make this poster a con-job.
i don’t think i ever wrote “deficits do not count.”
re nuts. i think i wrote bat-shit-crazy, but how’s this for nuts:
or this one:
or this one:
that last one was shredded by bill mitchell: When a former US president makes things up.
hope i didn’t make any transcription errors. you can check me here:
http://www.netrootsmass.net/2011/06/bill-clinton-deficit-hawk-at-peterson-foundation-2011-fiscal-summit/
Say, Unka Willbur:
Is this your horsy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_PZPpWTRTU
Whenever I hear the word “Institute”, I reach for my earplugs.
the more I read this thread the more I realize that these yuppie sell outs are just part of the cast of rotating villains.
I KNEW raygun was a lying fucking thief when I was 20 in 1980 and making 4 bucks an hour as a cook.
WHY are the unemployed held hostage so the rich pig scum who WRECKED everything able to keep more of what the rich pig scum undeservedly steal?
Cuz for 30 years these upper middle cla$$ yuppie $ell out$ have always found yet another reason to move further right with the thieves.
IF we had a multi-party system, the knuckle dragging rich toady suck ups of the tea party would have the SAME representation of the yuppie DLC-Neo-lib rich toady suck ups –
I will say this about this charlatan – his group DESERVES to rip off union worker money if their “leadership” is dumb enough to fund the charlatan.
rmm.
If someone wants to challenge whether EPI is progressive or my own research contributes to progressive policies and movements then I ask that you actually familiarize yourself with our work at http://www.epi.org where you can readily find things I’ve written of 24 years.
Anyone who says that tax cuts don’t create jobs, well,….the point of Keynesian fiscal policy is to temporarily increase the deficit, thereby expanding aggregate demand, by reducing revenue or increasing spending. So, in the spirit of this website I’d call that particular post ‘ignorant’.
We’ve been proponents of using the spending side as it is more effective. However, a temporary payroll tax holiday does give employment a boost, though not as much as other options. Get ready for a debate on continuing that payroll tax holiday into 2012. I understand that some right-wingers will want to make it hard to ever reverse that ‘holiday’.
I simply don’t know how to respond to people that call us centrist and not progressive when they do not reference anything, any policy we’ve analyzed or any of our work. It, again, just makes me sad (and a little pissed off! Want to criticize us then bring something to the table)
Thank you wigwam.
Larry Mishel
Lobbying one or two comments over the digital transom is not persuasive to your would be followers. Your lament that commentators failed to criticize specifics in your research mirrors comments here about your unresponsiveness to specific points raised in this discussion. Chief among those is the deleterious actual – and apparent – conflicts raised by EPI’s acceptance of funds from Mr. Peterson in a national debate that is as much about appearance and emotion as statistics and effective policy.
Given that you had so little time to respond to questions, your focus only on my comment regarding “purity” was disappointing. It was ancillary to those issues, an attempt preemptively to dismiss the strawman argument that we here care only about purity, the rightness of those we engage with, rather than policy outcomes.
As for the claimed benefits of tax cuts, specifically that they create jobs, you’ll have to do better. For starters, which tax cuts? If they create jobs, what’s the cost? How effective are they compared to other means of stimulating the economy? How quickly do they work and what percentage of their benefit flows to the wealthy vs. the middle class. Do the effects of their greater empowerment of wealth override their benefits that aid the middle class and the larger economy?
Please do not point me to specific research without also engaging here in why you think it’s valuable or relevant to the discussion here. Blogging is not a food fight or a street fight, nor is it a faculty club debate. It’s a sharp exchange over the dinner table with people you want to engage with day after day.
larry,
fwiw, i defended the payroll tax cut in my first comment on this thread.
but i also said that wasn’t the issue… will you please address my real issue? here it is again if you don’t want to scroll:
but the payroll tax argument (for or against) is not the issue.
here is the issue: EPI took money from the peterson foundation, an organization dedicated to dismantling some of our most progressive and successful institutions. EPI used that money as earmarked by the peterson foundation to create a budget addressing pete peterson’s signature issue — the faux “crisis” in usa fed govt deficit spending without ever challenging the premise (please see my diary, USG deficits: The Economics, the Politics, the Banksters and You.). EPI participated the peterson foundation fiscal summit (which is used by the peterson foundation to engage in fed budget faux-crisis fear mongering) and therefore lent EPI’s good name to the event and the cause.
EPI should not be defending itself, the error should be quickly acknowledged. EPI should give back the money and publicly refuse to have anything further to do with the peterson foundation. the thirty pieces of silver is not worth it.
love that. best description yet.
Oops! I did not watch his presentation. I based my opinion on what he has written here in the past. If he is buying in to and propagating Peterson’s deficit hysteria, I must change my mind about him. Sigh!
Thanks for that input.
Ok, I’m ignorant and you’re the progressive.
But if tax cuts create jobs, and federal taxes are at their lowest level in 50 or 60 years, where are the jobs???
I suppose I must be ignorant of them.
If tax cuts created jobs GWB should’ve led all recent Presidents in job creation because he led them in cutting taxes. Yet the data doesn’t support that.
So, it is true, I’m ignorant, because I’m not aware of the data, DATA (not theory), that backs that up. Could you please link it for me so that I may become unignorant? You never know, I may return to the world of progressive, though I’m not sure I want to if you’re the definition of progressive.
Tax cuts creates jobs has the been the rallying cry of the RIGHT WING (not progressives) for decades. Yet there is no compelling data (that I’m aware of) to back it up. And you repeat, AGAIN, the rallying cry of the right wing and yet AGAIN claim that you’re a progressive.
Not only am I ignorant, but my logic is deeply flawed.
My bad.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Employment Hours and Earnings increased LESS for the first five months (Jan-May [Apr-May are preliminary]) of 2011 (under the payroll tax holiday) than for the first five months of 2010.
Let me repeat that. Employment hours and earnings rose LESS in the first five months of 2011 than they did in the first five months of 2010.
So would someone, ANYONE, please provide linked proof that cutting taxes leads to jobs?
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0000000001?output_view=net_1mth