I. Israeli government spokesperson Mark Regev is one or the smoothest operators out there among world-class apparatchiks. Like Israeli Defense Forces spokesperson for the press, Avital Leibovich, he is unperturbed when being asked vexing questions about the dubious morality of Israeli military policy. Early in the weekend, Leibovich was questioned by RT TV about the bombing of a building in Gaza City which housed offices, equipment and reporters for several news agencies. She claimed it was impossible to avoid hurting journalists, because Hamas was using them as “human shields.”
Now the Israelis have again attacked a building housing news gatherers:
After a second Israeli attack on a media building in two days, this time killing two journalists, the spokesman for the Israeli Prime Minister, Mark Regev explains to al-Jazeera English that because the journalists were Palestinian the Israel military considered them legitimate “targets.” Regev’s remarks were made just a few hours after the November 19, 2012 bombing of al-Shuruq Tower and another building used to house the offices of several media outlets, including both Palestinian and international networks.
Speaking to al-Jazeera, Regev said, “We took out the target that we wanted to take out.” When pressed by al-Jazeera over the injuries of eight journalists the previous day, where one lost his leg, Regev continued:
“Oh you’re talking about… oh first of all maybe we have a discussion about who is a journalist and if you’ll allow me I will elaborate on this. There is the al-Aqsa station, which is a station that is a Hamas command and control facility, just as in other totalitarian regimes; the media is used by the regime for command and control and also for security purposes. From our point of view that’s not a legitimate journalist.”
Al-Jazeera’s correspondent then followed-up by asking, “So what are you saying? That a local Arab journalist life is any less than an internationalist journalist?”Apparently for Regev, yes, in Gaza there are no legitimate Palestinian journalists, only targets. [emphasis added]
I don’t think international law makes a distinction between journalists working for outlets within authoritarian regimes and others. Nor do I think Mr. Regev or Ms. Leibovich care. There may be Palestinian journalists working in Gaza who are not somehow connected to Hamas, but to get their credentials they have to apply to the local government – Hamas – to get them.
Kevin Gosztola covered the earlier attacks in a great article here early Sunday, titled Israel’s Targeting Media is a War Crime. Here is his accounting of worldwide media reaction:
Five missiles hit the 11th floor offices used by Al-Quds TV and injured four employees— Darwish Bulbul, Khadar Al-Zahar, Muhammad al-Akhras and Hazem al-Da’our. Hussein Al-Madhoun, a freelance photographer working for the Ma’an News Agency was wounded. The office had been serving as a headquarters for various foreign and Palestinian media organizations, including Ma’an News Agency.
Hours later, around 7 am, a building Reporters Without Borders claims was known as the “journalists’ building”—the Al-Shorouq building—was hit. The two missiles that struck the building wounded three Al-Aqsa TV employees and damaged the offices of Sky News Arabia, the German TV station ARD, Arab TV stations MBC and Abu Dhabi TV, Al-Arabiya, Reuters, Russia Today and Ma’an News Agency.
“These attacks constitute obstruction of freedom of information,” stated Reporters Without Borders secretary-general Christophe Deloire. “We remind the Israeli authorities that, under humanitarian law, the news media enjoy the same protection as civilians and cannot be regarded as military targets.”
The Foreign Press Association (FPA) expressed their “concern” with Israel’s strike on a “media building housing FPA members Sky News, Sky News Arabia, MBC TV, Al-Arabiya, ORF and other European broadcasters.”
Predictably, Israel tried to justify hitting buildings being used by journalists by claiming it was “infrastructure of Hamas’ operational communications” were located inside the civilian building. It targeted the communication devices on the rooftop to “minimize damage.” And, it hit the second building because that building was also “part of Hamas’ operational communications.” They “deliberately located” the devices on the roof of the building, the army claimed.
Deloire did not accept this official statement, “Even though the outlets targeted are linked to Hamas, it does not legitimize the attacks…Attacks against civilian targets constitute war crimes.”
Ofir Gendelman, spokesman of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, tweeted that “No Western journalists were hurt” in the attacks on the media buildings, which suggests the lives of non-Western journalists are meaningless to Israel. They can be wounded or killed and that will be fine because it will be easy to suggest they were Hamas sympathizers or were working for the Hamas.
Here is Mark Regev today on Al Jazeera:
And here is Avital Leibovich on RT TV, on Saturday (I carried this clip in an fdl diary on Sunday):
Regev goes further than Leibovich. She argued that Hamas is using reporters as human shields, so some might get hurt. Regev states “the media is used by the regime for command and control and also for security purposes. From our point of view that’s not a legitimate journalist.”
When American reporters become embedded in military units so they might do battlefield reporting, the version of their account that gets published almost always helps “the regime for command and control” in a strategic sense. The same is often true with British reporters embedded with UK units, and so on. No doubt reporters embedded with Israeli units help steer the national meme in the preferred direction of the regime in power far more often than not.
But, again – as Kevin Gosztola quoted Sunday:
…Inasmuch as they are civilians, journalists are protected under international humanitarian law against direct attacks unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities. Violations of this rule constitute a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol I. What is more, intentionally directing an attack against a civilian – whether in an international or in a non-international armed conflict – also amounts to a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court…
Ofir Gendelman’s statement about these bombings, that “no Western journalists were hurt” once again betrays the racism that has become so embedded in Israeli society that Bull Conner would be proud.
But when ARE journalists legitimate targets? If Churchill had been able to call down a Mosquito strike on Lord Haw-Haw‘s studio, would he have done so? Would Admiral Bull Halsey have ordered Helldivers and Corsairs to destroy Tokyo Rose‘s control room, had he known its whereabouts?
Both Lord Haw-Haw and Tokyo Rose were tried in their native countries – the UK and USA, respectively – for treason. Haw-Haw was hanged and Tokyo Rose served a relatively short sentence, eventually being pardoned by President Gerald Ford.
In World War II, the Nazis and Soviets faced off in an “existential” struggle, and many captured journalists from both sides perished. These days, it seems that Israel considers every threat, whether it be from artists not wanting to collaborate with Israeli ensembles, or food co-ops not wanting to offer West Bank settlement products for sale, or student groups at colleges, demonstrating against apartheid to be an “existential threat.” They have turned into the nation at arms Napoleon or Ludendorff could only have imagined possible.
Certainly Israel is not alone in its hostility toward reporters seeking honest answers, or who are seeking to unearth disturbing truths. But the degree of justification they seek in explaining the killings of people they consider to be “non-white” (as in Gendelman’s tweet) reporters is creepy.
So, if you want to back or supplement Regev, when ARE journalists legitimate targets, if ever?
II. Bringing up World War II in Europe, particularly the Eastern Front, when writing or speaking about Israeli history or current Israeli policy, even tangentially as I have done above, can lead to accusations of unfair comparisons. I’ve usually kept far away from comparing Israeli atrocities to those of the Nazis. I advise others to do the same.
Here are some ground rules:
I recommend against comparing anything done by actors for the Jewish State of Israel with anything done by the actors of the Nazi 3rd Reich. There are more apt historical comparisons to be made:
1) Various tribal wars of European colonist or the American government against our first peoples.
2) French policies in Algeria, particularly after WWII.
3) Rhodesian policies toward Native inhabitants.
4) Portuguese policies in various late 20th century colonies.
5) The Apartheid policies of the Union of South Africa. This is particularly apt, as the State of Israel supported these atrocious policies directly in many ways, extending to the latter offering the apartheid SA government nuclear weapons, in a variety of sizes and flavors.
6) I’m sure there are other non-Nazi examples.
Feel free to add.
I do subscribe to the notion - Godwin’s Law – that “in an argument, the first person who mentions Hitler loses.”
The only comparison between Nazi policies and Israeli policies I have been tempted to make has been that of comparing the 1941-44 900-day siege of Leningrad to that of Gaza. Even there, the metaphor doesn’t strike me as strong enough to be as usable as many viable models that don’t throw Hitler into the equation.
However, in the spirit of inquiry, ARE THERE apt comparisons between Israeli policies or dogma, and anything whatsoever having to do with the Third Reich?




41 Comments

Recommended. I’ll comment later, I’ve now had to pull 3 all nighters in a row for a project that is nearing fruition and am off to bed.
Quick answer: When they abandon their professional independence to further a military objective.
mfi
Nonplussed?
Good work.
I suggest a boycott of Israeli products for Hanukkah this year.
“When Are Journalists Legitimate Military Targets?” Never: It is an intentional War Crime to target journalists.
It looks like, judging by the timing, that Israel is collectively punishing Gazans for the statehood attempt before the UN.
I believe Holocaust Museums should change their names to Genocide Museums, and should also include exhibits highlighting Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, President Obama’s Pogroms in Bahrain, and other such Atrocities.
There were likely some time periods in the grisly history of the treatment of the Armenians, but even following Wiki links, it was impossible to see any exact comparisons. And that’s partially because I’m not familiar enough with either histories.
Yes but it’s not that straightforward. You need to keep the factions straight. The statehood attempt is being done Fatah not Hamas. If you’ve been following this you’ll be aware that Israel, the USA, UK, and France have been campaigning vigorously against it. It seems likely that it will fail, certainly that’s the presumption in Tel Aviv.
If the Israeli assumption is correct and the bid for recognition as a sovereign state fails then Fatah’s popularity and the legitimacy of its Israeli-backed puppet regime will fall even further amongst the Palestinians while that of Hamas will rise. So the Israelis are “getting in their retaliation first” to coin a phrase. They’re trying to weaken Hamas to the point that even a dramatic rise in their support won’t matter because Hamas won’t be able to take advantage of it.
mfi
DOn’t forget their even more blatant support for Ian Smith’s junta in Rhodesia.
mfi
In the USA, non-plussed can mean either “so surprised and confused that one is unsure how to react,” or “not disconcerted; unperturbed,” which is strange. I meant it as in the second case. I’ve changed it to “unperturbed” in the diary, to end any ambiguity.
Thank you, ET, for the excellent round up and question. Really excellent.
Radical Jewish terrorists have been going after and killing Palestinians with our blessing since 1946.
This is simply a continuation of this practice.
That’s largely because the new fashion is to freak out over Robert Mugabe and point to him (and Idi Amin, etc., etc.) as examples of Why We White People Can’t Trust Those Darned Dark Folk To Govern Themselves. (Conveniently leaving out how the white colonialists weren’t exactly interested in “helping” the indigenous peoples so much as they were interested in exploiting them for cheap labor, among other things.)
Justification for imperialism #273.
I think a careful absorption of Robert G.L. Waite’s fascinating and illuminating tome ‘The Psychopathic God Adolph Hitler, 1977,Da Capo, would reguire even a less than obsessively insightful person to arrive at the following parallels:
Adolph Hitler=Germany
Germany=Nazi State
The Deutsch volksgemeinschaft (German national community)=Germany
Res ipsa loguitur: Adolph Hitler=Nazi State=German national community=Germany
Therefore, a mention of the Nazis is equivalent to mentioning Adolph Hitler.
Or, at least that is what Nazi propaganda, thank you Herr Dr. Goebbels, imbued in the German masses during WWII.
Hitler was the ‘God’ and living embodiment of the Nazi State.
You can’t have one without the other.
Thanks for your thoughts, once again, Edward.
Fatah is a big loser in the new developments – as the attacks have solidified support behind Hamas.
Sounds like Hamas is finally figuring out how to be Hizbullah.
And the basis upon which you make that statement is what norman? Evidence please and no your unsupported assertions are not evidence. Evidence please – If you have a link to, for example, an opinion poll taken of the Palestinian population since the Israeli attacks began please provide it.
mfi
They’re stronger than they were but that doesn’t follow. The Hizb have always been characterised by extraordinary competence. Hamas not so much. Better than Fatah yes but being more competent than Fatah just ain’t hard.
mfi
Actually I take that back – it’s not so much that they’re stronger as that they’re better equipped than they were 4 years ago. But they’re also more isolated. The cross-regional rise of the Ikhwanis would on the face of it seem to be good news for Hamas who’re an Ikhwan offshoot themselves but again this doesn’t follow. There are several factors here but among the most important is the fact that the immediate descent of the ‘Arab Spring’ into sectarianism directed against the Shi’i has served to weaken ‘the axis of resistance’ and this leaves Hamas and Gaza vulnerable to the sort of attack it’s now enduring. The descent of Syria into civil war and its destruction by armed gangs trained and sponsored by an unholy alliance of the Saudis, Qataris, Turks, and the major western powers has crippled one of Hamas’ key allies. I think that this is one of the reasons why Nethanyu launched his attack now – he thought he could do so with impunity. Nasrallah made a speech a few days ago in which he said “Israel is taking advantage of the chaos in Syria for its onslaught against Gaza”. That seems about right to me. Its not like 2008 when the resistance axis was capable of giving good logistical support to Hamas. The continuing destruction of Syria has cut a major supply line to Gaza. That will change – even if the Syrian state collapses completely it will still be possible to re-establish that supply line but doing so will take time. I’m not convinced that Hamas has that time.
mfi
One of the problems that Hamas has is the constrained territory, dense population, and lack of weapons. While Hezbollah is also constrained, they have a little more operating room and somewhat better supply of weapons.
Yup. Moreover the Hizb have been doing this for a long time.
mfi
Thanks for supporting Israel’s rationale for its treatment of Gaza.
And thank you for also supporting Israel’s rationale for its treatment of Gaza.
Are you guys sure you are not Zionists working for Israel.
Just askin’
This question opens up the general question of how supporters of Palestine should relate to the Palestinian struggle. It’s very similar to the questions posed by the relations of the US antiwar movement and the Vietnamese when they were invaded and occupied by the US.
At some point, because of the increasing influence of left in the Arab/muslim spring, Palestine is going to be restored. Given that why would anyone fear to make the connections between the colonialism and ethnic cleansing of the Nazis and that of zionists.
Is it out of fear of being called anti-Semitic? Zionists will make that charge in any case, applying it even the mildest of critics of the zionist bunkerstadt. Or is it fear of being identified with the mad dog rightwing shiite Ayatollahs of Iran and other anti-union anti-gay islamists such as equally right wing sunni talibanists. Both groups contain holocaust deniers and we should avoid identification with that like the plague. The holocaust did occur and it’s cynical use by the zionists to deflect criticism of the mass murders of the zionist is something we can comment on.
The other way to deal with that is to denounce right wing islamist and Baathist regimes on political grounds while insisting that the US has no business in any of those struggles and that it’s interference will lead to more genocides like the one in Iraq. We can, on that basis, support the revolutionary struggles of Iranian students, workers, unionists, women and GLBT folks their fight against the ayatollahs while simultaneously denouncing zionist and American moves to attack Iran and steal their resources.
That leaves us the opening of criticizing the zionists for endangering the lives of Palestinians and settlers, taking the side of the Palestinians. It also gives us an opportunity to explain why zionists abandoned European Jews and why their policies present a deadly trap for settlers.
Again, the desires of the Palestinians are paramount and we should give no quarter to the zionists and their American controllers who want a two state solution with a weak and disarmed Palestine at the mercy of the zionists military bunkerstadt. That’s the situation today and any conceivable ‘two state’ solution would be the same. If Palestinians are forced to temporarily live with that’s their decision but our emphasis should be for the full restoration of Palestine and the right of return.
Thanks, Bill. This is the kind of thoughtful comment I was hoping for. Full day at work today, and just a chance to peek in at the comments from time to time – until late this evening.
Oh doremus how sad. Not only are you a mendacious Zionist POS but you’re a sub-standard mendacious Zionist POS. I’m disappointed in you. Was that puerility the best you could do? At least with your
mastermentor there was an occasional spark of something resembling originality.mfi
From Reuters:
So you are reduced to name calling.
Par for your intellectual course.
Shalom Aleichem
The Guardian has their photos.
More harsh news from the IDF tweets.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/gaza/palestinian-factions-fatah-and-hamas-unite-over-gaza-crisis/story-fnge5zl9-1226520105121
from above the Al Jazeera live cam:
Just heard a bomb.
http://blogs.aljazeera.com/topic/gaza/view-live-stream-gaza
Great observations, ET. Thank you.
I couldn’t help but compare Regev and Leibovich either.
May I just say that Fouad Ajami needs to go away? American media are trying to fool the uninformed Americans that because he has a “funny” name and speaks with an accent, that he represents the “other” side.
from wiki:
Ajami was born in Arnoun, a rocky hamlet in the south of Lebanon. His Shiite family had come to Arnoun from Tabriz, Iran in the 1850s.[2] In Arabic, the word “Ajami” means “non-Arab”; or “non-Arabic-speaker”.[3] Recently he has declared that all of the people of Pelestine are his “enemies” and stands firmly with Israel in their “expulsion” from the West Bank and Gaza.
…………..
Ajami was an outspoken supporter of the Iraq War, about the nobility of which he believes there “can be no doubt”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fouad_Ajami
They keep pulling him out from under his rock.
UGH.
RE: the question posed as to what would be an apt comparison –
What I’m thinking of right now is not so much 1930s Nazi Germany, but early 1990s Rwanda, especially with the use of the country’s media — a media that with the rise of Sheldon Adelson’s influence is increasingly eliminationist.
One of the stronger parallels between the 1990s Rwandan genocide and the decades-long anti-Palestinian genocide currently being conducted by the Israelis is that in both situations, the people conducting the genocide were part of a group that had been itself been the historical victims of genocidal attacks and bigoted treatment — but instead of learning tolerance and compassion, apparently learned to be violent and bigoted themselves.
Oh, I didn’t mean to say that Hamas are already as skilled and competent as Hizbullah. I just meant that Hamas have finally, after years of worse-than-useless flailing about, figured out that they should start being more like Hizbullah if they want to get anywhere. It’s a small miracle that they’ve managed to advance even to this tiny mark of progress.
As for Fatah: They seem to be one of the few things on which most of the parties, friend and foe alike, can agree — most sides agree that Fatah are two-bit gangsters.
All seemed quiet when I checked it two minutes ago. Fingers crossed!
How is working to defend Palestinians against genocidal twits like Avigdor Lieberman and Bibi Netanyahu a justification for Lieberman and Netanyahu’s bellicose bloodlust?
Mahalo, ET, gor, and, other Pups for this most excellent post…!
Grasping the Baton, I just posted a new diary…! ;-)
What Ceasefire…?
Edward, generally I agree with your admonition not to make comparisons with present day Israel and the Nazis; they are usually invidious. But neither should they be off limits in honest commentary. Should only the supporters of Israel’s policies in Gaza have recourse to appeals to the holocaust and Nazi policies to justify present day actions? I don’t think so. Here is an example of something I wrote on a facebook discussion:
“Israel’s long term strategic goal, which is the total subjugation of the Palestinians and the complete expropriation of their remaining land. Seen in that light [the assassination of Al-Jabari] was not a miscalculation but a necessary move in the direction of their “final solution.”
The present day leadership of Netanyahu & Leiberman are pursuing the goal of rendering the Palestinians so helpless and beaten down that they will either leave or simply give up and let the rest of their land be taken. The result: a greater, grander Israel of their vision. The Israeli brutality has surpassed even South Africa’s apartheid. Do these goals, achieved through mass murder, not count as a “final solution?”
Pertinent inquiry and diary ET…thank you…many good comments presented above…
Killing journalists is wanton abuse of core principles that Tel Aviv and WashingtonDC should be absoulutely not on wrong side of.
Comparisons to Adolf Hitler and the politics/practices of the Germans who chose to be Nazis ( not all Germans were Nazis ) long ago passed all lines or boundaries of being a valid premise. Hitler and German Nazis have been so completely made into cliches,Hollywoodized and placed in settings and on stages of black humor/ridiculous humor sketches and absurd political uses to have been made useless due to excessive and absurd usage.
1930′s German militarism and bellicose WW2 conduct it led to is a more useful starting point for purposes of comparison or illumination as to what American or Israeli militarism has now become. Post WW2 WashingtonDC and post 1967 War Tel Aviv have some genuine militarism addiction and abuse issues. The waste of money and diversion away from political solutions in favor of death and destruction sprees is now the big problem for both Americans and Israelis.
Bellicose militarism and lopsided political/legal conditions that now thrive around I/P Conflict remain root causes for failures to find genuine solutions.
Tel Aviv has rights to be sure but so does everyone else.
Political power abuses and harshly imposed thuggery realities of I/P Conflict allow little space for resolution of central I/P Conflict issues. So often — too often — Might Makes Right seems to be the motto and main reference on part of Tel Aviv while Palestinians appear doomed to a bleak existence for lack of a champion who can do what needs to be done without either being killed or being bought off by WashingtonDC/Tel Aviv.
Far too much violence and death dealing has made being humane and merciful appear as being weak when in fact this is the stronger position now needed the most — to be humane and merciful.
As long as USA keeps backing Tel Aviv at UN or keeps pouring billions of $$ military/economic funding into Tel Aviv why should Tel Aviv evolve?
Too bad WashingtonDC long ago stopped wearing a black and white refs shirt and chose to favor one side of I/P Conflict often and blatantly while abandoning doing good and fair ref calls.
Just home from work and saw your comment. The terms “final solution” or “Final Solution” have seldom been used in regard to Israeli plans for Palestinians, but I posit that either in lower or upper case, they may be apt.
Plan Dalet was the initial solution. It remained very hidden for years. Maybe there is a terminal solution plan that has not yet met the light of day, or is highly classified somewhere in a vault in Tel Aviv.
Thank you.
mfi
Ever read Jabotinsky? Try reading him side by side with Mein Kampf. It’s very instructive.
mfi