Our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are war criminals. This can be a difficult thing to deal with if you are a soldier (but of course it’s even harder on the victims of the criminality), but knowing and then acting on the truth is how otherwise moral men and women will get themselves right. Seeking forgiveness from the victims (as is now common among Vietnam veterans) might be part of some sort of absolution too, I don’t know.
Unfortunately, many if not most on the left, in deluded ‘solidarity’ or strategic thinking that is neither, don’t want to state the plain fact of what the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and occupations — and their shoot first get garbled translations later standard operating procedures — makes our soldiers. How do we get them to wake up and stop doing what they’re doing, by lying to them and putting all the blame on the policymakers and superior officers? Leftists and pseudos have been discussing all this at Lenin’s Tomb, where my most recent comment is the following:
I want soldiers who are war criminals to be aware of that fact. One of the main reasons is because a lot of the time when they know that truth they refuse to fight (or refuse to enlist if they get aware before joining the military). The ‘our poor naive soldiers’ rap is fine (although their life typically is better materially than the lives of similarly situated guys/gals who chose not to enlist and are employed in minimum wage jobs without much of a future), but not at the expense of the truth.
Our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan in fact are often amenable to the awful truth, they already mostly know the truth in a not fully coherent way, and many believe confronting the truth is part of the cathartic process for ‘getting through/over’ the psychological pain caused by the guilt for what they have done to many Iraqis and Afghans. The antiwar left just needs to fully inform them and perhaps provide an overarching narrative.
I personally would forgive anyone who goes AWOL once they become fully aware of what they are actually doing, but that’s just me. For example, I’m not sure whether the relatives of Afghan or Iraqi civilian victims would want to do the same. Their right to justice for the killing of their compatriots in an illegal war is also something to weigh.
As we all more or less know, perhaps even the working and middle class high school students who are the primary targets of military recruiting, aggressive war is illegal and immoral. Uninvited invasion and occupation of sovereign states is illegal and immoral. The restrictions on belligerent occupations are severe and it is standard operating procedure for U.S. soldiers to violate them against the opposing army, POWs, and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.
By the way, how similar is the following, written in March, 2004 by Stephen Zunes about President Bush’s rationale for the Iraq invasion, to President Obama’s justification for our war of occupation against Afghanistan?
President Bush now declares that a successful American-led pacification of the anti-occupation resistance in Iraq would be an “essential victory in the war on terror.” In linking the legitimate international struggle against al Qaeda with the illegitimate U.S. occupation of Iraq, it becomes possible for the administration to justify the president’s determination to “spend what is necessary” in controlling this oil-rich country and to depict those in the United States and elsewhere who oppose the occupation as being soft of terrorism. . . .
There appears to be no evidence, however, that those Iraqis currently fighting U.S. occupation forces in their own country actually want to somehow sneak into the United States to kill American civilians. Indeed, no Iraqis have ever been known to commit an act of terrorism against Americans on American soil.
BTW 2, to the many honorable veterans, particularly of WW II, I salute you on Veterans Day.



38 Comments







Nice old time socialist rhetoric.
Trotsky was a great organizer and a good polemicist but a lousy socialist.
It’s international and US law actually.
International, But U S? Is there any law left in this Country that really works.
You might be able to say the Country, our Government, and the American people are war criminals, but why pick on the troops who are under orders and do what they do thinking they are fighting for us.
Our Government officials and our military leaders should be hauled in and tried for the crimes, just like the Germans were after WWII.
Our Country won’t do it, and most other Countries are beholding to us, so they won’t do it. Like all the other crimes our Government commits against us and others, they never will be held to account.
This is because the American People have been buffalowed into believeing in the government the military and all the crimes they commit.
I don’t excuse the policymakers and they probably should suffer much greater punishment than the end ‘executors’ of their war criminal policies. In fact, typically the soldiers have not been prosecuted, but under international law of war that doesn’t mean they’re not guilty. But it is a requirement under the law of war to disobey an illegal order unless you would suffer death or severe injury by such a refusal. It is simply absurdly inefficient and not common-sensical to prosecute and jail tens or hundreds of thousands of soldiers, so war crime prosecutions focus on the order givers and policy makers.
And no, ignorance or being buffaloed into believing lies is not an excuse for war criminality. We still are required to obey international law of war and the Geneva Conventions even if we think the WMD and terrorists are everywhere. One of my points, though, is that I think many or even most of our soldiers in the field know something is horribly morally wrong with what they are doing. They feel it in their guts and in their hearts. There’s not as much ignorance as you think.
So what were the illegal orders that “tens or hundreds of thousands of soldiers” were obliged to disobey?
If Your in the Military try refusing a direct order, You’ll be in shackles and on the way to a Court Marshall.
Even the troops who know these things aren’t right want to get their tour over and back to their families, rather than spend a long time in a military prison and face the concequences.
Both Ours and international law has not worked against what our polititions have done, nor has it worked well against what all the other bad regimes and countries have done. We just can’t face the fact that The laws don’t offten work when anykind of war is involved, and laws here nad other places have not stopped any bad guys yet.
If our aggressive war and the way we are doing our unwanted occupation — minimizing our heroes casualties and in exchange maximizing civilian casualties — weren’t about killing people, many of them civilians, I would be as sympathetic as you our to our poor boys and girls and their desire to avoid prison for deciding not to kill people for no reason. Under Nuremberg, the only escape clause from doing the right thing is if you have good reason to believe your commanding authorities would kill or inflict very serious injury on you.
I suppose if You were in their shoes You would just say and do what you felt not matter what the repercussions were. Talk is cheap, but it takes money to buy whiskey.
I was in the same shoes as almost every high school student: the military offers a free education if you join the reserves, that’s pretty damn attractive to a kid whose parents can’t afford to send him to college. I refused the offer, of course, as many many honorable and _truly_ righteous young people do today. They are the real heroes, and those who take the money and in exchange carry out evil are incredibly dishonorable.
I agree with fairleft, and I’m a vet, FWIW.
The soldiers are volunteers, not draftees, which IMO makes them party to war crimes carried out by their country.
Thanks. I don’t think I’m exactly revealing truth here, just recognizing what is fairly obvious or should be to our military in Iraq and Afghanistn.
I very much liked masoud’s comment in that thread:
And in fact that is why the anti-war movement in the US does not exist. They have been brainwashed by the “support the troops” propaganda.
“If the war is wrong, then resistance to it is right.”
About half-assed enough for you to like, I guess.
Too hard to figure that calling something wrong doesn’t mean that the acts of opponents to the war can be equally, or more seriously, wrong?
I agree with Masoud, and he made the argument better than I could have. I believe the antiwar movement can reach many more people by making the common-sense moral appeal. Killing people for no good reason is incredibly and obviously wrong. Most young people, even working-class kids from crappy high schools, know that and respond to such an appeal. But when the left goes along with and says we’re better at ‘support the troops’ than the right, that sounds like bullshit and just doesn’t work.
Right. And the troops smell that bullshit a mile off. The progressives stink of it. It’s patronising cowardly crap and the troops despise it. And so do I. Little wonder so many go to the right where they at least can fake having principles better than the progressives.
This was another useful comment, slightly revised, over at Lenin’s Tomb:
If anyone here thinks they can get out of the above quandary that ‘supporting the troops’ puts the pseudo-antiwar left in, please explain.
Not to execute or support aggressive war, the most important war crime according to the Nuremberg Tribunals. That’s for everyone. Most of our troops are also repeatedly guilty of Geneva Convetion 4 violations in their actions toward the civilians of occupied countries.
Link please?
It’s in the diary, but here is a little more from there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression
I feel like we’re talking to kindergarteners.
At least the people at Lenin’s would have known elementary facts about the laws of war if they were going to argue on the topic. I honestly despair of how ignorant the blogosphere is after ten years of non-stop “information”.
Are we talking to teenagers I wonder. Here we go with the 101 stuff all over again. I wouldn’t mind but always when they are clueless they are also the ones that think they know it all.
http://tinyurl.com/yjr8m43
Could you provide something showing something pretty definitive that would give some clear guidance to our soldiers and would give them legal justification for refusing military orders?
I can’t remember anything from any international body that would have served as an injunction at the time of the invasion.
The invasions were 6 and 8 years ago, so are not relevant to anyone there now. Each time a person enlists or re-enlists, he or she makes a moral choice to support an illegal war of occupation against legitimate resistance fighters.
I understand what you’re saying but I think that you might not understand me.
My question to you is Which international body has ruled that the invasion of Iraq was illegal? It seems to be my recollection that the UN debated about this point prior to the invasion and voted something that somewhat supported the war and certainly was anything prohibiting it.
When was the war ruled an illegal one?
Without such a ruling, how can soldiers disobey otherwise-legal orders without being in violation of their duty?
There’s no body called upon to do that.
In any case the Iraq war was such a clear violation — the clearest violation in history — that it would have been unnecessary. The then Secretary General did say it was a violation but only an imbecile wouldn’t know that. He didn’t volunteer it; some journalist asked him.
The law says “no threat or use of force”. If you think the US never threatened or used force against Iraq you must be real special. Similarly the US used force against Afghanistan. I think even US soldiers can figure out that the US used force against Iraq and Afghanistan don’t you?
Davie, it’s just so comforting to know that you’re still yapping about things.
Did the Secretary general think that the war was illegal enough to refer it’s violative nature to the member states of the UN?
Wouldn’t that have been his obligation?
Doesn’t the UN have a provision for Acts of Aggression?
http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter7.shtml
And shouldn’t any anyone saying that there’s no institution charged with such violations of the peace have known this, especially if the cluck was making reference to the SecGen of that organization?
I understand you but disagree with basing morality on what U.S.-subordinate institutions like the UN say. After it happened the UN approved of the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq, but it was still an obvious case of unprovoked war, aggressive war. If you disagree and believe we had to invade because of the obviously trumped up WMD, that’s obviously nonsense.
No, I’m not saying anything in defense of the war. What I’m saying is that calling the war illegal because you say that it’s “obvious” that it’s illegal isn’t anything more substantial than an opinion.
What’s the weight of that? How does an opinion of the war’s illegality provide not only guidance for the actions of individual soldiers, but also a legal defense?
How does your opinion, even arguably true, give truth to branding the soldiers as war criminals? Have you really thought that out?
The war seems to be criminal, unprovoked aggression and classic aggressive war under the definition established by the Nuremberg Tribunals, and those ‘doing’ that war need to be consciously aware of that and act accordingly and morally. That’s why I titled the diary as I did. If you think the case can be made that the attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan, especially now after 6 and 8 years of continuous war, are something other than unprovoked war, please make that case. If you can’t make the case, then I have to assume you agree with me but are retreating to legalism.
When you open up the discussion by calling the soldiers “war criminals” I’m hard-pressed to understand how discussing legality is a retreat. You go on to baldly assert violations of the Fourth Geneva Protocol.
Can you explain what criminal means without reference to law?
Or does “retreat to legalism” means that you haven’t a firm conviction that there are really violations of actual law and it’s more that you mean to invoke moral considerations in regard to the actions of our soldiers?
Of course I am making an assertion. For you I’ll revise the title to Fairleft believes our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are war criminals. And apparently you don’t disagree with that assertion, because so far you have not made an argument it. As I understand it, your argument is, “Technically, they haven’t been tried or accused by a recognized, competent legal authority, therefore they are not war criminals.” Okay, yeah, you’re right there.
“Do you respect our troops? If so, demand their return home because they’ve been deployed in illegal Wars of Aggression. Don’t believe me when I say the wars are illegal and we should withdraw (Iraq and Afghanistan can request help from the UN on their own if they’re interested). YOU have to know the two simple rules of starting a war to determine if our troops’ presence is ethical or not. Do you know them? If so, thank you for your responsibility as a citizen. If not, thank you for reading this article to learn! As an educator, allow me to attempt my art of admonishing those who haven’t done this important homework before reviewing the answer (and I thought being a laid-off teacher I wouldn’t use this particular skill as a writer).
And those two easy rules of a legal war: only in self-defense if attacked by a nation (or imminent threat) and/or authorized by the UN Security Council.
For war, if a nation doesn’t attack you or is imminently prepared to do so, war is illegal. The UN Security Council can also authorize use of force. Absent one of these two conditions, war is illegal. As I’ve explained in this article, neither one of those conditions was met, and the US government falsified evidence to spin public support and put our beloved troops into Wars of Aggression.
Below is the most beautiful and powerful artistic call to support our troops, an 8-minute video. I highly recommend their website for additionally powerful and moving videos. ”
http://www.examiner.com/x-18425-LA-County-Nonpartisan-Examiner~y2009m9d11-For-911-support-our-troops-by-bringing-them-home
Butterfly, don’t this all just make you scratch yer head? All these people who blah-blah-blah about “OMG! The troops are war criminals“? I mean, where do these people want to actually GO with this, eh?
Don’tcha wonder what they might actually accomplish if they put this time and energy into actual effort to bring the troops home?
Thanks for your comment. Otherwise, this diary and thread are DOA.
They could perhaps force the government to honor the troops by bringing them home. At either military.com, or Stars and Stripes, there was an article recently that advised fellow troops to refuse illegal orders because of the war crime aspect. It is now openly discussed that they will be held responsible and their commanding officers will not. Many troops are wondering what they are fighting for; they don’t know why they are there. I hope that soon the illegality of the wars will also be discussed on military blogs. Then maybe the troops will bring themselves home.
Well, it’s damn hard to discuss it even on ‘progressive’ blogs. For example, I posted this same essay at Mydd.com and the title was censored.
See http://www.mydd.com/story/2009/11/11/132518/02
We have put our efforts into it. What do we have to show for it? We need new strategies, new words, no one’s tried my approach, the emphatic moral demand to our troops to stop doing monstrous evil. The ironic fact is that I’ve met many former troops in antiwar demonstrations, and listened to their speeches: they know damn well what the military asks them to do in Afghanistan and Iraq is evil. It’s all the whimpy fake pwoggie people over here in the States who can’t face up to reality. And that reality will/would motivate soldiers to refuse to go into the armed forces, to leave it and/or to refuse to fight.
I don’t support our troops, no, of course not. I believe many are doing immoral, evil acts virtually every day in Iraq and Afghanistan, because of their very nature as warriors fighting for an unasked for occupation of other people’s land. And because they are essential participants in ongoing aggressive wars, as defined by Nuremberg, against the formerly sovereign states of Afghanistan and Iraq. And, finally, let’s remember, our troops are using 21st century firepower to kill lots of impoverished, innocent people and patriots defending their countries from unprovoked and illegal invasions. STOP SUPPORTING TROOPS DOING EVIL.