21 Responses to ‘Show Us a Map; We’ll Recognize an Israel that Doesn’t Include West Bank & E. Jerusalem’

1. CTuttle October 13th, 2010 at 12:54 pm 1

   Great job, Fairleft…! recc’d…!

   I would’ve added this key graf tho…

   Any formulation the Americans present – even asking us to call Israel the ‘Chinese State’ – we will agree to it, as long as we receive the 1967 borders. We have recognized Israel in the past, but Israel has not recognized the Palestinian state.”

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2. CTuttle October 13th, 2010 at 12:59 pm 2

   In response to CTuttle @ 1

   Oops…! I saw that you did…! 8-)

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3. BearCountry October 13th, 2010 at 1:02 pm 3

   israel wants to be recognized as a state without clearly defined borders. When they reach the borders they want, they will stop and say that this is what the world, including the Palestinians, recognized. Unfortunately, there will be no more room for the Palestinians in the area, because the settlement ‘freeze’ includes allowing settlements to be built in what Palestinians thought would at least be their land.

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4. fairleft October 13th, 2010 at 1:04 pm 4

   In response to CTuttle @ 2

   Yeah, had to include the ‘Chinese’ part.

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5. wirerat1 October 13th, 2010 at 1:29 pm 5

   Awesome response by the Palestinians. It is a shame it gets downplayed in the press.

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6. CTuttle October 13th, 2010 at 2:19 pm 6

   In response to wirerat1 @ 5

   Ironically, the ‘Palestinians’ are pissed at Abed Rabbo…

   PLO chief sparks outrage after comments on recognizing Jewish state

   …Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) First Deputy Speaker Dr. Ahmed Bahar said Abed Rabbo should be prosecuted before a Palestinian court for his betrayal of the rights of the people, the blood of the martyrs, and Palestinian national principles. [...]

   PLC Secretary Mahmoud Al Ramahi said Abed Rabbo has no right to speak for the Palestinian people, who have put forth enormous sacrifices to end the occupation and establish an independent Palestinian state without backing down on even one inch of land.

   “The Executive Committee itself does not represent a broad sector of the Palestinian people, but is limited to a particular group, especially after the Popular Front suspended its participation in the organization’s meetings, along with it losing the trust of the Palestinian people,” Ramahi said.

   Hamas leader Dr. Salah Al Bardawil said in press statement that Abed Rabbo’s remarks are a “national crime”, adding that Abed Rabbo only represents himself. [...]

   Arab member of the Israeli Knesset Jamal Zahaliqa called on the PLO to remove its secretary Abed Rabbo from office in light of his statements.

   “Neither Yasser Abed Rabbo nor anyone else has the right to sell the rights of the Palestinians in the interior [1948-occupied Palestine], or to waive the rights of the refugees abroad, or confer legitimacy for that by recognizing Israel as a Jewish state,” he said.

   I think that about covers all the main Palestinian factions…!

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7. ubetchaiam October 13th, 2010 at 2:53 pm 7

   “Israel moves down the slippery slope of” another holocaust.

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8. fairleft October 13th, 2010 at 2:59 pm 8

   In response to CTuttle @ 6

   Thanks. I think Rabbo is right (if I get where he’s coming from) in considering the ‘recognize us as a Jewish state’ demand as basically just words. Any ‘Jewish state’ (as long as it was ‘Jewish’) would be obligated, you would think, to provide full legal equality to all its citizens of whatever ethnicity/religion. Like the EU minister sez:

   The European Union on Tuesday urged Israel to guarantee the equality of all its citizens after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu urged Palestinians to recognize Israel’s Jewish identity in exchange for a freeze on settlement building in occupied Palestinian territories.

   Asked to comment on Netanyahu’s call for the Palestinian leadership to recognize “Israel as the national state of the Jewish people,” a spokeswoman for EU diplomatic chief Catherine Ashton said: “We support the two democratic states living side by side in peace and security.

   “We also stress that the future states of Palestine and Israel will need to fully guarantee equality to all their citizens: basically in the case of Israel this means whether they are Jewish or not.”

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9. fairleft October 13th, 2010 at 3:08 pm 9

   In response to CTuttle @ 6

   Here’s a spokesperson for Hamas, back in mid-2006:

   As for the constant demand that Hamas recognize Israel, Dr. Al Bardawil noted: “Recognizing Israel is not black and white. It’s not a case of, if Hamas recognizes Israel they are good, but if not then they are bad.

   “Of course,” he added, “it’s not clear to us which Israel we are asked to recognize. Does anyone have a clear definition of what Israel is? Is it the Nov. 29, 1947 division which took 44 percent of our land? Or do they mean the land currently occupied, Gaza and the West Bank, which takes 78 percent of our land? Or is it the road map Israel? Or Olmert’s Israel, which will unilaterally declare borders and swallows 88 percent of Palestine’s land? Do they really expect us to sign a blank paper? We recognize them and then they decide their borders? Is that logical?” he asked calmly.

   “And why are we required to recognize Israel, but nobody has ever asked Israel to recognize the Palestinian state on the borders of 1967? They should specify what borders they want us to recognize,” he maintained. “If the Europeans could persuade Israel to establish a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders, release prisoners, return the refugees to their homes, and stop their aggression against us, we will welcome that and never protest.”

   That’s not so far off from what Rabbo has just proposed.

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10. CTuttle October 13th, 2010 at 3:25 pm 10

    In response to fairleft @ 9

    Nice catch…! ;-)

    If the Europeans could persuade Israel to establish a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders, release prisoners, return the refugees to their homes, and stop their aggression against us, we will welcome that and never protest.”

    Basically… Just leave us alone…! Such a simple concept, no…? 8-)

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11. fairleft October 13th, 2010 at 4:25 pm 11

    In response to CTuttle @ 10

    Hamas clinging ‘officially but not really’ to its dreams is easy for the mainstream media to manipulate.

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12. captjjyossarian October 13th, 2010 at 4:49 pm 12

    Hmmm…. inequitable doesn’t even being to describe where this process has been heading.

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13. TheCallUp October 13th, 2010 at 5:54 pm 13

    Great post, fairleft. Recommended! I eagerly await the US response…

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14. papau October 13th, 2010 at 6:04 pm 14

    Who is the official Hamas leader spokesperson – fellow in Syris says no Jewish Israel ever, Rabbo says yes but PLO MP says he is a traitor,

    And the “return the refugees to their homes” is classic “end the Jewish state” that is at odds with the direction Arafat was going at Taba of trading most “right of return” for compensation (which is the only real solution).

    One wonders if either side wants an end to the current situation.

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15. CTuttle October 13th, 2010 at 6:18 pm 15

    In response to TheCallUp @ 13

    Ask and ye shall receive… From today’s State Dept. Briefing…

    QUESTION: On the peace process, yesterday, you asked the Palestinian Authority to put proposals or offers on the table. Today, Yasser Abed Rabbo has came with this proposal asking the U.S. Administration and the Israeli Government to provide a map of the borders of the state of Israel which they want us to recognize, as Abed Rabbo has said. What is your reaction?

    MR. CROWLEY: Well, first of all, I think what we are seeing does represent the interest in the parties in continuing this effort. This is exactly the right conversation that the Israelis and Palestinians need to have to be exchanging ideas on how to advance this process to a successful conclusion. But it also is a reminder of the limitation of making offers and counteroffers by long distance and through the media as opposed to sitting down face-to-face in a direct negotiation.

    So this underscores exactly why we feel it is imperative for the Israelis and Palestinians to stay committed to direct negotiations. So they’re having exactly the right conversation. The only difference is this conversation has to take place face-to-face where eventually they can address both the core issues and the derivatives in pursuit of mutually recognized states and security for all.

    So this underscores why we believe it’s vitally important for both sides to do everything possible to stay in these negotiations, and in fact, to move to a point where we can once again have them sit down face-to-face and get into a direct discussion about these central issues.

    QUESTION: Do you have any map that you can provide to the Palestinian Authority?

    MR. CROWLEY: Well, what they’re asking for is the essence of the negotiation – what are the borders of a future Palestinian state, and conversely, what will be the borders of the Israeli state. This is a core issue and this is something that only a direct negotiation can resolve. So it is perfectly legitimate for the Palestinians to say, “What will the shape of a future Palestinian state be?” But again, to resolve this question and to move forward, the direct negotiations have to continue.

    QUESTION: What’s your position regarding the 1967 borders?

    MR. CROWLEY: Well, our position is that borders is a final status issue and must be resolved inside the negotiations.

    Lalit.

    QUESTION: Change of topic?

    MR. CROWLEY: Wait.

    QUESTION: The Israeli security forces have battled many Palestinians or have been training in the – an area that is called Hattin in preparation for the segregation implementation – Israeli segregation policy implementation later on when they are planning to eradicate the Palestinians out of their land and homes based on the new law that is supposed to tie your eligibility for a Palestinian – for an Israeli citizenship, tie it with the condition that you must profess your loyalty and recognition to Israel as a Jewish state. So this is a religious condition that goes against every democratic principle and against the framework of peace process.

    What do you – what does the United States believe and think of this Israeli policy, then?

    MR. CROWLEY: Well, we talked about that somewhat yesterday. I mean, Israel is a pluralistic democracy. It guarantees the equal rights of all its citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish alike. I’ll defer to the Israeli Government in terms of the question of citizenship oath. But we feel strongly that Israel is a functioning democracy, and as such, has a responsibility to protect the rights and privileges of all of its citizens.

    QUESTION: Do you believe – does it continue to be what you believe as a democratic state after any implementation of segregation and eradication of the Palestinians who lived in – on that land for thousands of years, based on the fact that it will not – would not recognize their citizenship as a – citizens who would profess that Israel is only for the Jewish people, not for them as Palestinians who lived in there for thousands of years?

    MR. CROWLEY: Again, you underscore exactly why we have made the commitment to pursue a final agreement between the Israelis and the Palestinians. So the borders of a Palestinian state will be clear; the borders of an Israeli state will be clear. The nature of a Palestinian state will be for all to see and to participate in; the nature of an Israeli state living in peace with its neighbors will have that same right.

    This is exactly why the direct negotiations have to continue. This is the only way to reach an agreement that ends the conflict once and for all and ends decades of suffering on all sides.

    QUESTION: Any update on the Senator Mitchell trip to the Middle East?

    MR. CROWLEY: Nothing to announce.

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16. shekissesfrogs October 13th, 2010 at 6:47 pm 16

    Recc’d..

    Funny, that oath to recognize the “jewish state”. There are many orthodox that don’t recognize Israel’s gov. as legitimate either. If the Palestinians who live inside Israel’s borders could say “them first”, they’d be waiting forever.

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17. CTuttle October 13th, 2010 at 6:57 pm 17

    *heh* Apparently, Rabbo’s request rattled Bibi…

    Israeli presence in Jordan valley could be flexible

    West Bank — Israel’s insistence on maintaining a presence on the eastern border of a future Palestinian state could be reviewed over time, a government spokesman said Wednesday.

    Israel’s demand for such a presence is one of the potential obstacles to a Mideast peace deal.

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18. papau October 13th, 2010 at 7:16 pm 18

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/13/AR2010101305017.html

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19. CTuttle October 13th, 2010 at 7:31 pm 19

    In response to papau @ 18

    I think much of that material of the article has already been cited above…! ;-)

    Btw, why do you suppose, that when two significant actors of the Arab League, get together to discuss ‘Major Arab Issues’, and, there’s not one mention of the I/P situation…? 8-(

    Egyptian president, Saudi FM discuss regional situation

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20. TheCallUp October 14th, 2010 at 4:54 am 20

    In response to CTuttle @ 15

    Thanks CTuttle. And the US Admins wonder why we are hated all over the world? That discourse between that reporter and Crowley shows just how dishonest and disingenuous the US is when it comes to its favorite apartheid state.

    Why don’t we handle this situation in the same way we’d handle any other conflict — according to international law? That’s all the Palestinians want — their rights accorded to them under international law to be enforced. But the US wants to allow Israel to negotiate away the Palestinian’s rights, and they want the Palestinians to feel grateful for getting even a fraction of what’s accorded them.

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21. fairleft October 14th, 2010 at 8:07 am 21

    In response to papau @ 14

    Entirely conceding the right of return without getting anything back seems poor negotiating strategy. Anyway, Rabbo is a representative of the PLO.

    And the “return the refugees to their homes” is classic “end the Jewish state”

    No, Rabbo is saying return the refugees to their homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the same position consensus international law takes. The Israelis — continuing to expand illegal settlements as we speak — are the only side responsible for making a joke of ‘negotiations’.

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