When a nation in conflict with an imperial power declares a complete and unilateral ceasefire and states that it wants UN inspectors in country, now, to make sure the ceasefire is real and that civilians are protected, what is a military imperialist coalition to do? If the U.S. and its subordinates had been sincere about protecting civilians and so on, they would’ve at least expressed positive interest in the ‘offer’ (especially its UN monitors provision!), replied with a confidence-building measure, and asked ”its” rebels to stand down briefly. But that is not what happened early on March 19. What did happen is instructive.
Libya declares ceasefire after UN resolution
Updated Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:55am AEDTLibya’s foreign minister has announced an immediate halt to all military operations in the country, following an earlier move by the United Nations which authorised military strikes to protect Libyan civilians.”Libya has decided an immediate ceasefire and an immediate halt to all military operations,” foreign minister Mussa Kussa told a press conference from the capital, Tripoli, on Friday (local time).”(Libya) takes great interest in protecting civilians,” he said, adding that the country would also protect all foreigners and foreign assets in Libya.Mr Kussa said because Libya is a member of the United Nations, it is “obliged to accept the UN Security Council’s resolutions.”
But then, say those who trust reports from one side in a civil war, didn’t the rebels and Western news reports tell us that Libya had ignored its own ceasefire and kept on fighting?
Yes, they did, but that doesn’t mean those reports, by one side in an armed conflict, were true. We don’t in fact know whether Libya ceased firing. Libya said that it did, while those attacking Libya said that it did not.
We do know that neither the rebels nor the U.S. and its allies, in response to Libya’s declaration, either proposed or declared their own unilateral ceasefires.
How could we have been sure, how can we ever be sure that Libya had/has ceased fire? How could we have been sure, how can we ever be sure that Libyan civilians in combat zones (on both sides of the civil war) were and are safe and secure?
With UN experts on the ground monitoring the alleged ceasefire. And that is exactly what Libya has repeatedly asked for beginning late on March 18. Libya has received no response at all to that suggestion, other than cruise missiles.
What was the actual Western response to Libya’s ceasefire declaration: immediate disbelief and then, officially, the West added non-negotiable demands (see below) beyond a complete ceasefire. One of the non-negotiable demands was removal of Qaddafi as Libya’s ruler. No, that kind of response is not helpful for advancing the Libya conflict toward a peaceful resolution.
From the West’s actual response, of course, we saw exactly what the real intent of the air war was and is. Which we’ve known all along: the West intends to overthrow the Qaddafi regime and put in place a more or less puppet regime, much like the ones it has installed in most of the oil-rich Middle East nations. At the same time it is happy that the air war demonstrates once again the sometimes hellish consequences of choosing sovereignty and resisting Western corporate globalization.
As usual when the West is insincere and intent on war, when ’the bad guys’ meet its ostensible and not unreasonable demands, it quickly comes up with additional and non-negotiable ones that are impossible to meet. So, after Libya declared a unilateral ceasefire and asked for UN inspectors to come in and make sure the ceasefire was real and make sure civilians were safe and secure, we got the following:
Later, a joint statement by the UK, France and the US demanded that Gaddafi’s troops stop their advance on Benghazi and pull back from the towns on Ajdabiya, Misrata, and Zawiya.
It also said water, electricity and gas supplies must be re-established to all areas, and humanitarian aid allowed to reach the Libyan people.
These terms were non-negotiable, the statement added. …
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the US wanted to see pro-Gaddafi forces withdraw a “significant distance away” from their current positions in the east of the country close to the opposition stronghold of Benghazi.
Clinton, just to make clear the U.S. wanted war and not a UN-monitored ceasefire, added the additional demand that the ruler of the other side must capitulate and surrender (and then, as other reports had indicated, stand trial in a Western imperial court for capital war crimes). In the strange present tense of a USA Today report:
Clinton calls on Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi to end the violence and pull his forces back from their campaign against rebels in eastern Libyan.
“The first and overwhelmingly urgent action is to end the violence,” she says. “We have to see a very clear set of decisions that are operationalized on the ground by the Gadhafi forces to move physically a significant distance away from the east, where they have been pursuing their campaign against the opposition.”
She emphasizes that Gadhafi must step down. She calls the United Nations resolution for a no-fly zone and “all necessary measures” to end the violence against rebels a “strong message that needs to be heeded.”
“We do believe that a final resolution of any negotiations would have to be the decision by Col. Gadhafi to leave,” she says. “But let’s take this one step at a time.”
President Obama two days later echoed Clinton’s comment on Libya’s ruler, that “he needs to go.” So here is what our Nobel Peace Prize President is advocating tonight: regime overthrow and militarized imperialism that advances corporate globalization and the naked self-interest of a few rich oil corporations. We learned that on the first night of the conflict, from the U.S. and its allies’ response to Libya’s unilateral ceasefire.



65 Comments

At this point the American people are partners to this global stick-up. The truly sad part is that many in this country with a wink
and a nod think that by looking the other way and playing along with
this act of war maybe, just maybe some of that oil will trickle down
to us at the pump. Dream on!
. . . while those attacking Libya said that it did not.
Uh, it was the rebels saying Ghaddafi was still attacking them, slaughtering them, snipers on roofs, etc.
Just so that’s clear to your readers . . . it was NOT the Coalition it was the rebels saying they were being slaughtered and worse was to come.
I would urge the diary author to review google and AW.com authors going back to early March or so . . . and read first hand accounts that many authors publicized, discussed and shared.
Accounts from rebels or rebel sources.
Hard to discount ALL of that multitude of info at one’s fingertips.
thanks and recc’ed
The rebels are attacking the Libyan government. We should question their credibility when they say things occurred that put the government in a negative light, and we should question the Libyan government’s credibility when it says things occurred that put the rebels in a negative light. That basic common sense leads to the obvious: we don’t know what was/is happening, despite the rebels saying the government is “attacking them, slaughtering them, snipers on roofs.”
We need independent eyes, UN observers, in the ‘ceasefire’ zones.
If those accounts are from rebels and rebel sources, or Western interventionist sources, anyone with common sense should doubt their truthfulness and objectivity.
The rebels and Western interventionists know that a very important, perhaps most essential, aspect of the war is the information/propaganda battle. That doesn’t mean the reports are not true; it means you should not rely on them to convict and punish (with bombs and cruise missiles) the other side in the conflict. But that is exactly what has happened.
You keep trying to assert that Qaddafi is honest. Give it up he is a internationally recognized and self proven brutal dictator.
Not matter how how much you keep saying it, it wont come true. There never was a cease fire. And if you really think there was prove it.
Show us the credible evidence.
Here Ill throw some logic at you. Which should we believe? That Qaddafi wanted a ceasefire or his vows of martyrdom? To which is he keeping his word with? Its impossible to keep both promises. And he did make both promises.
And do you think that the world doesn’t have the ability to observe which he chose? I am not talking about just the US. I am talking about his fellow neighbors.
The rebels are fighting to rid the country of an dictator. They tried to do it themselves, but ran into trouble. So THEY THE REBELS, asked for help. No one just said hey lets just go in and take over. There was a request by the people of Libya the people dying in the streets bravely against a brutal dictator.
Since the uprising around the world has started the world has been applauding these brave peoples in each repressed nation. Now you are asking the world to repeat what happened in Iraq before any war there. The people tried to revolt there we even were helping them. Until the shit hit the fan then we turned tail and ran. and left those revolutionaries to die in great horrible numbers.
You do remember that right? It is a talking point on how bad those damn Republicans are. The Republicans let those people in Iraq die at the hands of Saddam it was an inexcusable crime.
Now in Libya the people wanted help. The world was slow about granting that help. SO many Libyans died at the hands of Qaddafi. Now that is an agreement to Obamas skating around the Constitution. We simply didnt have to be in on it. France and the UK are very capable of completing the mission without us. SO Obama has no excuse IMO.
But your solution was to trust Qaddafi that is incredibly naive to say the least. Your idea is to let the people of Libya get slaughtered because hey they aint Americans why should we care.
With your logic then there was nothing wrong with not stopping the Rwandan Genocide. Hell I guess we Americans should just stay home. Isnt that your logic dont help anyone but ourselves? Because we cant afford too, we should just turn a blind eye to the world.
Heres the reality there is an narrative that dictates that the war mongering is a proof of Fascism. I am sure you have heard it. So the idea is to prove that narrative no matter what. This time the ‘no matter what’ part is the lives of the Libyan people. What will it be next time? Will it be the lives of your sacred Americans?
I think its time to quit the games for once and act like human beings. If someone needs help, just fucking help them. Dont turn it into another way to get at the Right. I mean what are we as a people actually? Are we people that are so self centered that we wont help anyone because they just happen to have a shit load of oil?
Right now the people of LIbya do not own the oil in their own country. One person does and that is Qaddafi. And you seem to be ignoring the fact that he has a massed all the wealth of his people in his back pocket. There isnt a dictator anywhere that ever existed that keeps his word. Why do you believe that Qaddafi would be any different? Because it matches your narrative?
correction:
“Now that ISNT an agreement to Obamas skating around the Constitution.”
Thanks.
I’ve read that this train left the station months ago. In otherwords, the NATO planning had already been finalized before the rebellion occured. It’ll be interesting to see if more leaks out on this because it’d be pretty damning.
Obviously I’m not saying that; in an ideal world, making up stuff about me doesn’t help your side of the argument.
We should question the rebels’ credibility when they say things occurred that put the government in a negative light, and we should question the Libyan government’s credibility when it says things occurred that put the rebels in a negative light. That’s basic common sense, and it leads to the obvious: we don’t know what was/is happening to the rebels and associated civilians, and we don’t know what was/is happening to non-rebel civilians.
Libya’s civilians need independent eyes, UN observers from countries neutral in this conflict, on the ground. That is what Libya wants, and what the U.S., its allies, and the rebels have refused.
Just yesterday the rebels announced they had taken Sirte without much of a fight. There was celebrating in the streets.
Today we found out that is not true.
Wikileaks teaches us that these kind of pro-U.S.-corporate-interests interventions are planned months in advance. This is likely part of a region-wide post-Tahrir-Square counter-revolution backed by Saudi Arabia, the U.S., and Israel, and in support of corrupt royal despots subordinate to U.S./Israeli interests like the ones in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Qatar, the UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain, and so on.
At least that’s what the Angry Arab thinks is likely happening, and he’s got expertise, independence, and long experience in the region:
A key advantage for the war hawks in any U.S. intervention is the gullibility of the U.S. public, particularly good-hearted liberals/progressives. They should be leading the fight back against corporate-interests imperial aggression, but instead are largely found in the cheerleading section _if_ the aggressor-in-chief is a Democrat
That a key part to starting an imperial war is refusal to allow or removal of independent UN ‘inspectors/observers’ should remind us of that other unprovoked war of aggression, the Iraq invasion.
“Here Ill throw some logic at you. Which should we believe? That Qaddafi wanted a ceasefire or his vows of martyrdom? To which is he keeping his word with? Its impossible to keep both promises. And he did make both promises ”
“But your solution was to trust Qaddafi that is incredibly naive to say the least. Your idea is to let the people of Libya get slaughtered because hey they aint Americans why should we care.”
Neither. UN monitors should have been sent in. When in doubt get more information.
“Now in Libya the people wanted help.”
Which people wanted help? The rebels. The 1000 rebels out of 1.5 million. That is not “the people.” The rebels are arab tribesmen, and the rest of the country is mostly berbers.
Putting them into this artificial construct allows the manufacture of consent.
They are also very likely just as nasty as Gaddafi. They were his henchmen. Its like a Clingon promotion.
No one called the libyans and took a poll. That is the only statistically reliable measure.
“But your solution was to trust Qaddafi that is incredibly naive to say the least. Your idea is to let the people of Libya get slaughtered because hey they aint Americans why should we care.”
Just because someone takes a stance for non intervention doesn’t mean they think its okay to let the libyans get slaughtered, and it doesn’t mean it’s because that someone is a racist either.
This is a strawman argument, and meant to shut someone up accusing them of amorality, and secondly, racism.
And its not assured that they will be slaughtered, The fact that they rejected the mediation that Hugo Chavez arranged says enough. Now Turkish PM Erdogan is trying to set it up again.
File this under “the real Human Rights Watch”:
Agreed we should question the credibilty of both the “rebels” AND the Gadafi government. Being a news junkie though I’ve read dozens upon dozens of articles from news sources all over the world on the internet(there are many reporters in Libya) and I have yet to see one single report of any “cease-fire” taking place. Am I to believe every media reporter is part of vast conspiracy? PLEASE post one single link (even somewhat credible) that says a cease fire took place. Thank you.
“Right now the people of LIbya do not own the oil in their own country.”
Holy shit, the kool-aide is strong in this one.
I’m all for a cease fire but Qaddafi does a lot of lying and the rebels are mostly angry individuals rather than a chain of command. Would it be possible for some African group to envose a ceasefire without attacking victems of Qaddafi who ignore it.
Anyway I am glad that Qadaffi’s bloodly slaughter of protesters didn’t put him firmly back in controll. like the way Tiananmen Square stiffened dissent aroung the world for many years. See,
http://my.firedoglake.com/richardkanepa/2011/03/29/the-people-united-can-always-be-exterminated
That’s hardly an neutral objective source. Far better to have your opponent be attacked with A-10s and C-130s if you’re out for regime change, than stopping the air assaults because you’re there for humanitarian reasons.
“Right now the people of LIbya do not own the oil in their own country. One person does and that is Qaddafi.”
Great, another war for oil
No you didnt say all that. But as a reader of what you wrote that was the impression I walked away with.
I like how everywhere else its the PEOPLE and in Libya its the REBELS. Do you have something Against the Libyan people? Are Libyan’s less important for some strange reason?
The Egyptians were organized and would have become rebels at some point, if that Government would have taken the same path as Qaddafi.
In the end it does not matter to Libyans what you and I think. They are the ones dying for freedom whether you want to acknowledge them or not.
Buts lets cut the bull. Why is Libya different then any of the other uprisings? Is it because of the oil? Or some other reason?
You act as if the rebels are not the people of Libya. WHat proof do you have that the rebels are anything but people fighting for freedom?
“Which people wanted help? The rebels. The 1000 rebels out of 1.5 million. That is not “the people.” The rebels are arab tribesmen, and the rest of the country is mostly berbers.
Putting them into this artificial construct allows the manufacture of consent.
They are also very likely just as nasty as Gaddafi. They were his henchmen. Its like a Clingon promotion.
No one called the libyans and took a poll. That is the only statistically reliable measure.”
All good rebellions have leaders, That is how it works. Egypt had their leaders. And yes some were Islamic.
Why do you think these rebels are “also very likely just as nasty as Gaddafi”? Are we to hate Islam now? Shouldnt we be consistent with our acceptance of Islam? Not switch sides to meet our needs?
And how is it that you know exactly who these rebels are? Qaddafi is anti-Islam. That is a fact from his own mouth. He tried to dictate to his people in regards to Islam. Just as Brittan did to and it ended with the same thing, revolution. Which btw our own revolution wasnt fought by a people with no leaders.
tell me how there is going to be a poll in a country with a dictator? Isnt the fact that the people dont have that right part of why revolutions happen?
Your own statement above is racist. It shouldn’t matter what race anyone is. And you seem to have forgot the protesters already that died in the streets chanting Qaddafi must go. How many protesters were there before Qaddafi started slaughtering them? Doesn’t that work into your equation?
I mean in your narrative there was no protests by the people of Libya. Just a 1000 Arab Tribesman started fighting Qaddafis regime. You act as if the TRUE Libyan’s were just sitting around enjoying the freedoms that Qaddafi allowed, then those pesky Arab Tribesmen started shooting.
A country isnt made of a single race anymore. The point is that the Libyan people were protesting their corrupt Government. There is no doubt that everyone knows that the people of Libya wanted Qaddafi to go. That is fact very known. Like in Egypt people of all walks of life conspired to make that happen. After Qaddafi is gone then they will work out their differences. For good or bad it makes no difference to the Libyans, the goal was to stop their own oppression.
Im seeing a very double standard here. And to me its obvious why.
We dont need to approve another countries revolution. That is up to the people of that country. I did not see people questioning who the revolutionaries were in the other countries that were revolting on their dictators. Why start marginalizing the revolution in Libya? Because it fits your narrative?
Hugo Chavez wanted Qaddafi to stay in power. His ‘peace commission’ was ignored by the rebels based on that fact. While Chavez was trying to keep Qaddafi in power, the Libyan people were dying in the streets from bullets from Qaddafi. Those were ordinary people not rebels back east. That is what is the reality.
And where is Chavez now? Chavez could have kept pressuring Qaddafi but he just went silent on the issue. Why is that?
Wtf are you accusing me of? Who is the Jim Jones figure that you think I am affiliated with? Huh?
Or at least have the balls to talk to me straight up, so that I can defend myself against your attack. Come on out of the shadows boy.
~~modnote: please simmer down.~~
There is not a single independent report that a ceasefire did not take place. Every report I’ve read is that rebels or questionably independent witnesses in rebel-occupied towns said a ceasefire did not take place. PLEASE post one single credible link that says a cease fire did not take place. Thank you.
Of course, we could _know_ whether a ceasefire was taking place if there were UN monitors on the ground in places like Sirte and so on. Libya has pleaded for those UN monitors to come in, but the U.S. and the rebels have not. Why not?
I think most sources call the Libyan rebels ‘the rebels’.
In the end it doesn’t matter what Libyans do. What matters is that U.S., French, Italian, and British imperialist airpower is winning the war for one side. The winners will know how they have come into power, on the backs of the Americans, and will know they can just as easily be booted out if they don’t do what the Western imperialists tell them to do. That’s the tragedy of this intervention, Libya’s loss of sovereignty.
Last I read, Egypt was still under the rule of its military.
There’s no independent evidence of a massacre. Yes, the rebels and those who support them say there have been deliberate killings of dozens of civilians. But no independent reporters or observers (such as UN monitors) witnessed those alleged incidents. We should ask for much better evidence when ‘stopping massacre’ is the bedrock justification of Obama and West’s war against the Libyan government.
Libya was definitely kicking the hell out of the rebel forces this March. Civilians without question were dying during that war. Like they have in all wars worldwide since the dawn of air power (not that that makes it right) But collateral damage from attacking the rebels is not what the West has accused and basically convicted Libya of doing. The contention is that Libya deliberately was targeting civilians for ‘massacre’. MASSACRE, MASSACRE, MASSACRE, that is the word we hear over and over.
Again, where is the serious evidence for such a serious charge, a charge that now justifies an unprovoked imperialist air war that definitely is also killing lots of civilians.
The US is bombing Libya to let the people of Libya “own the oil in their own country?”
Please, entertain us with your explanation of such an absurd idea.
I’m sorry, but you call it “mass slaughter” and not “massacre.” There is no evidence at all for “mass slaughter,” I don’t think.
There are accusations by the rebels that civilians — from a dozen to thirty — were deliberately killed during various Libyan assaults on rebel-held cities.
Are you volunteering? Cellphone reports from Misurata were that they were still being shelled. Those weren’t only from rebels.
If you will recall, one of the demands of SCR 1970, prior to the no fly zone resolution was to allow access to humanitarian workers. The ICRC had been demanding access for weeks. So had other humanitarian groups. The UN had observers accidentally in many cities because the UNHCR had cell phone contact with asylees in Libya and was monitoring them because they were an at risk population from the start of the violence.
Why do you assume that people who want more facts from you are hawks? You are swallowing Qaddafi’s ceasefire assertion but there were multiple sources that said his troops never ceased their fire. Speculation ranged in the news media as to why, it didn’t initially center on perfidy, it centered on whether he had control over his troops or whether there were multiple people in control, or whether his command had fractured.
You are committing a massive distortion of the facts to assert in retrospect that there was a unified bipolar view of the facts with only two points of view, and that anyone who believes that there was no legitimate ceasefire is a war hawk and a propagandist, or a gullible good hearted liberal duped by the same.
There was a solid case for R2P. People are divided on whether or not they believe in R2P. Some people believe in it, some people don’t. Among those who believe in it, some people doubt the motives of those implementing it. Among those who believe in it, some also doubt whether this was really the right solution. But the case was made for it. If you don’t believe in R2P in the first place, then you are likely to be opposed to this action from the get go, liberal or conservative, because that was the justification.
But saying that everyone who believes in R2P and is liberal is a dupe is a little bit of a stretch. The frigging UN believes in it. And many liberals do believe in the UN. They aren’t little John Boltons, or little Ron Pauls in disguise.
I’m stating an obvious fact: we don’t know what is going on when the only reports available are from one side or the other in a propaganda civil war. I’m shocked that apparently rational people believe the rebels, when it is obviously in the rebels’ interest to lie and exaggerate the Libyan government’s misdeeds. I would be equally shocked if people believed the Libyan government’s statements that the rebels are ‘terrorists’.
In any case, irrational believing of obviously biased sources (not that I’m criticizing the rebels for possibly lying and/or exaggerating: they are just executing the textbook strategy for enlisting outside support from militarily superior imperial powers) has helped the imperialists a great deal, and now forms the basis for Obamas’ “showcase ‘reason’” for why we are fighting an air war to overthrow the Libyan regime.
Reply to ondelette March 29th, 2011 at 8:57 am
I’m saying the facts simply are not available. Allegations, even if multiple, if they are from obviously biased sources, should be treated as allegations that need to be proven.
You’re second paragraph is not about what I have written. When I wrote about “any U.S. intervention” I was writing generally. Since I am asserting we don’t know the facts and only have allegations from biased sources to rely on, I was not asserting a “unified bipolar view of the facts.” I do believe the gullibility that transforms one side’s allegations into facts plays a huge role in public acceptance that this latest Western intervention for oil and treasure is not that but ‘humanitarian’ instead.
Our strike aircraft are loaded with humanitarian bombs, they have a special characteristic in that any deaths they cause will be attributed to Gaddafi. /s
Yeah, Human Rights Watch… they also covered Georgia’s tracks in starting the Russia-Georgia conflict.
I think if we substitute the words “US State Department” for “Human Rights Watch” then things start to make more sense.
Oh. You think we should have had UN observers. You haven’t seen any evidence for mass slaughter. So you didn’t see something like this on Democracy Now, February 27, 2011, reported by Anjali Kamat, from Libya (that can’t be a rebel name, it’s Indian, female, and probably Hindu at that):
Those damned United Nations warners. If only we had independent UN observers.
Anyway, Anjali Kamat interviews doctors and they say about demonstrators (remember, these people hadn’t started arming themselves yet, so they are civilians under international law, being fired on by military troops),
You are just not reading anything but what you want to read. Argue if you want that R2P is not a valid reason to go to war. Many people do. Argue that this is not the right thing to do, or whatever. But they did have their case together for R2P. And there isn’t much evidence that Qaddafi really implemented a ceasefire.
You are trying to both claim that there was never the case, and that Qaddafi implemented a ceasefire. My guess is you are just adopting Qaddafi’s position in toto, because you want to oppose that of the U.S. Good luck with that.
Just removed from the recommended diary list. So, guess just the die-hards will remain here to interact with. Much better to meet new people here.
Nothing in your first blockquote is more than an allegation, of course. Are the “thousands” referred to military or civilians? The UN doesn’t make a distinction. Yes, deadly clashes did occur between rebel and government forces. Yes, a food system on the brink of collapse could’ve been repaired quickly if all sides had declared unilateral ceasefires that could’ve been monitored.
The second blockquote is mainly third-hand allegations: for example, “They were armed only with stones and rocks…” is a statement by a doctor, relaying a statement by an individual who may or may not have been a demonstrator armed only with stones and rocks. Or that person may have been a rebel armed with a gun.
Again, there is and was a propaganda war going on, everyone knew that, including the doctors in the hospitals and the patients in the hospital beds. The rebels won that propaganda war with allegations that were not independently witnessed. This is a very old, time-honored tradition in wars during the mass media era, enticing intervention by a military power with allegations of human rights abuse. Of course, the imperial power uses those allegations for PR purposes, and actually intervenes only for its own economic advantages. We aren’t naive enough to believe otherwise, are we?
“You are trying to … claim that … Qaddafi implemented a ceasefire.” How can you make such a blatantly false accusation? I’m saying over and over that we just don’t know.
“My guess is you are just adopting Qaddafi’s position in toto…” Bad guess. I’m saying we don’t know who is right or wrong, without independent verification. I.e., I’m on the side of common sense, and you’re on the side of gullibility.
Exactly Libya is under rule of its military. So now the people move onto making sure that the power is handed over to the people through Democracy. It wont be easy by any means. But they have more of a chance now then they did before they revolution.
There is a flip side to the logic of who the rebels should be loyal with. These uprisings have changed the world much more then 9/11. With each successful uprising people realize that revolution is possible. Before most people had Tiananmen Square’s fialure as a reason not to try.
America isnt the sole country behind the no-fly zone. Its an coalition. And the winners im sure would take in consideration of what you say. But they also might take another thing into consideration. If they repeat Qaddafi the world might react again.
Certainly what is going on in Libya isnt the ideal situation.
I do not fool hardly trust the worlds intervention is just going to work out fine and dandy. And obviously no one else does either. But the crux of the situation is that if the world sat on their hands and did nothing. Qaddafi would have snuffed out the revolution dead in its tracks.
Most likely by now Qaddafi would have smothered the resistance. And we would be having a much different conversation right now.
But back to your claim. How exactly would the UN monitor a cease fire? Remember who the UN is? It is those same nations bombing Qaddafis regime. Do you trust them to comeback and be honest? After all you made it clear what you think this this Libyan Revolution is all about. Wouldn’t the UN just say “no ceasefire” either way? It wouldn’t matter if there was a ceasefire at all, if there was a worked out plan, then there would have been a UN monitor to back up the reason to attack.
Wouldn’t that take away your assertion? I dont really think your a racist or anything like that. I just dont think you worked out your theory completely. And I am trying to show you other possibilities. I very well could be regretting any individual support for a no-fly zone. Time will tell.
I just think that people should not be slaughtered trying to speak out against their Government. And I dont think that the world should just sit and watch another Rwanda. It was wrong then and it is wrong now in the other countries where that is their reality. The UN, coalitions is the only vehicle we have to stop such regimes from murdering their citizens.
Qaddafi was heavily told to stop killing his people. Over and over until the world was blue in the face. Yet he didnt stop. Blame Qaddafi for not Stopping his brutal treatment of his citizens. He practically invited the no-fly zone all by himself. He didnt have to kill protesters, but he did. And not just a dozen or so.
Nah, you’re still there as far as I can see.
BTW, here’s a good chronology of events.
You can’t have that verification. He won’t allow humanitarian groups into the country. He hasn’t since the protests began. I know that because I’ve been monitoring the refugee situation at the borders since the thing began, and I know the groups have been demanding that access. Like I said, UNHCR had people inside, because they had 3000 asylees in Libya they were monitoring with nothing to do with these protests. They also had UNWFP people inside from before it started. ICRC regional headquarters for that region, though is in Tunis, so they didn’t.
You aren’t on the side of common sense, you’re on the side of ignorance. You don’t seem to know how much information was compiled before the two security resolutions were done. That accounts for the belief that a massacre was imminent. That gross abuses of human rights and mass killings of civilians with a death toll of thousands had already occurred was something they handed to the Office of the Prosecutor at the ICC to look at before the second SCR, and he reported back saying there was grounds for prosecution at the level of crimes against humanity.
The sense of impending doom at Benghazi coupled with the knowledge that there was a humanitarian crisis in progress in Misurata was fact. the ICRC and MSF pulled their people out of Benghazi the day before the SCR 1973, citing that the situation was too dangerous. They go into a lot of pretty dangerous places. Are you asserting they are either gullible or aligned with the rebels?
Cell phone contacts in Misurata said no cease fire took place there. Yes, the rebels also reported that, but not everybody that had cell phone contacts there was in contact with the rebels.
Here is a British reporter in Benghazi who heard gunfire saw warplanes after the ceasefire was declared:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368051/Libya-ceasefire-lie-If-Gaddafi-stopped-today-kill-all.html
Is he a dupe too?
Ban Ki-Moon, still calling for Qaddafi to halt attacks the day after the ceasefire was called, is he a dupe too?
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/03/18/spain.ban.libya/
The Saudi/U.S. counter-revolution, the new Aljazeera, humanitarian invasions killing more Arabs … gotta get your Angry Arab fill each day:
http://angryarab.net/
Yippee, and nice to meetcha.
Reply to ondelette March 29th, 2011 at 10:20 am
How do you know Libya won’t allow humanitarian groups, going forward, into the country? When Libya declared a unilateral ceasefire, it asked for UN monitors to assure that the ceasefire is real and that civilians are secure and safe. That sounds like UN-affiliated ‘humanitarian groups’.
Why not respond to Libya in some way? Isn’t it obvious that Libya wants a ceasefire? Don’t you think Libya knows it will eventually lose this war with the U.S. and its allies? Libya is highly motivated to want a ceasefire, as it was just before the first wave of cruise missiles struck, right? We all know a ceasefire could be had if the U.S. and its allies wanted one. Come on, use common sense: the U.S. doesn’t want a ceasefire. It wants to rid the region of another ‘too independent’ oil-rich Arab ruler.
Yes, the Daily Mail is the worst sort of imperialist cheerleader.
We don’t know what the circumstances of the apparent continued fighting in Misrata was. We don’t know who was shooting the weapons the BBC reporter heard.
Ban Ki Moon’s application for the job involved demonstrating subordinance to U.S. power. The previous Secretary General was much too independent, especially on the Iraq invasion. Moon was hired so that that stuff wouldn’t happen again. So, yes, he’s most definitely a cheerleader for the imperialist invasion.
“The ICRC and MSF pulled their people out of Benghazi the day before the SCR 1973″ because there was a civil war going on and it was very soon coming in force into that city. Good common sense, but how is that relevant to the ‘massacre of civilians’ allegation?
Meanwhile, what’s our second-best friend (after Israel) in the Middle East up to:
Outstanding debate in The Economist, mostly on the West’s war on Libya. From “Angry Arab” As’ad AbuKhalil’s opening remarks:
It happens frequently, actually, but note how imperial/international ‘law’ blocks a negotiated peace in Libya:
“I have heard people say that resolution 1970 was a mistake because it gives Gaddafi no way out,” says [Malcolm Shaw QC, a senior fellow at Cambridge University's Lauterpacht centre for international law]. “It basically said to Gaddafi, ‘You have to fight to the end.’ He may have a few short-term options, but the long-term prognosis for him and his family is very difficult. Apart from the fact an amnesty is unlikely to stick for ever, whoever takes over in Libya is sure to want to go after Gaddafi’s money.”
There’s no “going forward” buddy. International humanitarian law requires him to let them in during the armed conflict, to attend the sick and wounded on the battlefield, to bring necessary supplies to civilians deprived of them by the armed conflict, to monitor the use of military force, to monitor the treatment of vulnerable populations, including detainees and civilian populations.
Quit making excuses for Qaddafi. He doesn’t have any excuses for violating these laws. He’s a full signatory to the 4 Geneva Conventions and both the Additional Protocols.
The Daily Mail reporter was there, in Benghazi. It makes no difference what the editorial stance of his paper is. He reported attacks after Qaddafi said he ordered a ceasefire. By forces under Qaddafi’s command.
We don’t know who was shooting the weapons? There were bombs being dropped from planes. Do the rebels have planes?
Ban Ki-Moon is a US symp so you dismiss him — before I showed that he had doubted the ceasefire, you were calling for UN observation. How convenient that whenever you get observations you dismiss them.
You know squat about how the ICRC and MSF operate in armed conflict.
You are manufacturing a ceasefire for Qaddafi, and minimizing the evidence of an impending massacre or reprisal. You don’t have evidence, when others present you with evidence, you find excuses for dismissing it. You are believing what you want to believe.
Imperial/international law? Now you’re really going off the deep end. Apparently even the law must be destroyed when it stands in the way of your agenda.
Why don’t you take a big step back and look at what you have become. In the original interests of being against war, you have backed a dictator four square, are championing doing nothing in the face of what one diplomat characterized as a genocide, and are now decrying international humanitarian law, the law that has protected those who prevent atrocities during war and render aid to the wounded and displaced, as imperialist.
Time to consider whether maybe you need to focus on what you don’t like. It’s okay to disapprove of what actions were taken to try to rectify this situation, without becoming a cheerleader for a despot who believes in massively criminal behavior and developing a hatred for the only institutions the world has that try to keep the very worst in human nature from running its course.
In order to remove Qaddafi from power, for PR reasons he needed to be demonized/criminalized. That was done with the cooperation of the imperialist law establishment, but it has a price: it makes it much more difficult for Qaddafi to settle peacefully with the opposition. In this case, Qaddafi seems to be backed by a substantial number of Libyans, while the rebels are also supported by a substantial number of Libyans (and by what everyone knows really matters, the military power of the West). The best solution for Libya would be new constitution and government that forges a compromise among these competing groups.
Unfortunately imperial law has created only one likely outcome: winner-take-all and loser-executed-or-jailed-for-life. That very much discourages compromise and negotiation. That’s not just me saying this, but most of the international law experts quoted in the UK Guardian article.
Anyway, of course, the above is no surprise: compromise, ceasefires, and negotiations are not what the West wants. It wants complete military victory for the Western imperialism-supported soon-to-be puppets.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42255034/ns/world_news-africa/ here’s one for starters
Reply to ondelette March 29th, 2011 at 11:53 am
There is a “going forward,” my friend. International humanitarian law requires much of both sides. Neither the government nor the rebels are providing any of the international humanitarian service to the other side that is required of it.
Start noticing that you don’t know what is going on inside Libya, and are dependent on full-bore war-supporting Western propaganda for your ‘news’. Learn from the Iraq war pseudo-news that got us into that conflict and from Wikileaks.
We don’t know what laws Libya has violated or not violated. Please note that allegations are not proof, especially when those alleging are just very likely obviously playing the important and traditional war game of heaping ‘human rights abuse’ on their opponent. When the ‘our side’ cheering Western press is involved, it notices and amplifies the allegations of ‘our side’ and dismisses or denies same coming from the other side. The West and Libya, and the rebels don’t have any excuses for violating these ‘laws’. The Western invaders are full signatories to the 4 Geneva Conventions and both the Additional Protocols.
Reply to ondelette March 29th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
The editorial stance of his paper does make every difference, not “no difference,” in how and what the Daily Mail reporter in Benghazi reports. He did not witness any attacks. All of his reports are second or third hand. He also did not witness the actual circumstances of the attacks, if there were attacks.
The reporter did not witness any bombs being dropped from planes. He heard second or third hand reports of those bombings.
“Ban Ki-Moon is a US symp,” yes, and we should have UN observers only from nations neutral in this conflict.
You know squat about how the ICRC and MSF operate in armed conflict.
I am questioning the second and third hand and ‘rebel sourced’ evidence of an “impending” massacre or reprisal. Your certainty is my problem, and it helped cause the current air war. My lack of certainty shouldn’t be yours.
funny you can’t provide ONE link for something you say may have happened yet I’m suppose to provide proof of an event that never took place? If you wish to deny reality, that is your choice, it’s hard for me to refute illusions/delusions but below is one link of what didn’t happen.
sorry, the link moved to above
you know the rebels are nasty cause you asked them, right?
I’m sorry ondelette, you’re trying to make rational points with someone that posts irrational arguments. Believe me you’re wasting your time as was I.
I’m claiming we don’t know; a ceasefire may have happened and may not have happened. You’re claiming a ceasefire definitely did not happen. The difficulty is all yours.
I don’t consider the essentially U.S.-appointed Moon an unbiased source (the U.S. made sure it got a compliant Secretary General after the bad-PR criticism it received from former UN chief Kofi Annan over the Iraq invasion (see Iraq war illegal, says Annan)). He clearly is on the side of the crusade, and has gone further and said all nations must support it. We all unfortunately need to become aware of and accustomed to the new, subordinate-to-the-U.S.-imperial-interests UN.
The mysteriously ‘appointed’ rebel leaders — CIA?, al Qaeda?, IMF stooges? — get better and better:
(emphasis added)
Fairleft, you’ve done an excellent job on this diary, and in your responses; very impressive. I like the angry arab too, he’s become required daily reading since these protests started. His archives are invaluable for researching individuals involved in the middle east.
I cannot prove that anymore then you can prove that we are in Libya because of the oil. I cannot read the minds of whoever it is your assuming is the culprits.
Sure you could make assumptions based on unrelated data. But can you really show any proof that we are in Libya for just the oil? At this point it is loosely circumstantial at best.
Thank you for a real question this time.
But then there is this: http://www.cosatu.org.za/docs/pr/2011/pr0228a.html
“The Congress of South African Trade Unions strongly condemns the massacre of more than 1000 protesters by the government of Libya and demands that people be allowed to exercise their basic human right to demonstrate peacefully against the regime of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi.
COSATU appreciates that Libya, which produces 1.6 million barrels of oil a day (nearly 2% of the world’s production), has a far better record in promoting prosperity among its 6.6 million people than other North African countries where there have been popular revolts.
It has the lowest infant mortality rate in Africa – 18 per thousand, compared to South Africa’s 44 per thousand, and the highest life expectancy in Africa – 74 years compared to SA’s 49 years. The literacy rate is 90%. Less than 5% of the population is undernourished, and in response to the rising food prices around the world, the government of Libya abolished all taxes on food on 12 January 2011.
Libya has the highest gross domestic product at purchasing power parity per capita of all of African countries – around $13,000 relative to SA’s $10,000. A lower percentage of people (7%) live below the poverty line than in the Netherlands. The SA figure is about 50%.
COSATU does not accept however that these achievements in any way excuse the slaughter of those protesting against the oppressive dictatorship of Colonel Gaddafi and reaffirms its support for democracy and human rights in Libya and throughout the continent.
Patrick Craven (National Spokesperson)
Congress of South African Trade Unions
1-5 Leyds Cnr Biccard Streets
Braamfontein
2017
P.O.Box 1019
Johannesburg
South Africa
Tel: +27 11 339-4911/24
Fax: +27 11 339-5080 / 6940
Mobile: +27 82 821 7456
E-Mail: patrick@cosatu.org.za”
Irrational is believing second-or-third-hand reports from one side but not from another. Irrational is considering this regime change war a ‘war to protect Libyan civilians’. Irrational is thinking the next Libyan regime, placed into power by the West, will have any meaningful sovereignty, especially over Libya’s natural resources. Nope, that will be for the air warriors to divide among themselves.
Thanks!
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE19/011/2011/en/5a97c7df-aee8-4830-9f2b-d54f805d2dc1/mde190112011en.html Read it and weep