
(Photo in color here)
Protesters who flock each afternoon to Athens’ central Syntagma square in front of parliament have been wearing stickers saying “We owe nothing, we’ll sell nothing, we’ll pay nothing” — rejecting creditors’ demands to sell off state assets. — USA Today
That’s some sweet inspiring music for the rest of us! Good on you, Greek people.
IMHO, escape from the Eurozone and back to sovereignty is what the Greek crisis is all about. If Greece succeeds in doing so, it will be able to recover and get back on an economic growth path. Ability to do so doesn’t mean it will happen, of course, but subservience to Eurozone bankers leaves Greece nowhere to look but down.
And, uh, maybe Greece should ‘do an Argentina’?
But that’s not the way international propaganda masquerading as news looks at things. I realize that writing from the owners’ angle is just ‘what they do’, but still, AP gimme a break (emphasis added):
But the cuts have led to a recession, and the country is now in negotiations for a second bailout – which Papandreou said Sunday would be roughly the same size as the first. European officials fear a default by Greece could set off a chain reaction that would shake Europe’s banking system and economy, and drag down other financially troubled eurozone countries such as Portugal, Ireland and Spain.
That highlighted stuff is all euphemisms so let me translate: “shake Europe’s banking system” means large private European banks (the ones who with their U.S. banker friends caused this deep recession we’re in) would lose money on their crazy gamble that Greece would find a way to pay off its bank loans; “shake Europe’s … economy” means implode the Euro, thus loosening banker control over the European economy and the banks losing much of the tribute Europe ‘should’ pay to its masters; “drag down … Portugal, Ireland and Spain” means allow those countries to default on their impossible debt to big European and American banks and escape the Euro too, thus allowing those countries to grow, if their peoples can make their politicians Keynesian again.
P.S. to Greece — Beware of agents provocateur. This is a problem now in the anti-austerity demonstrations in Spain.
P.S. to Greece 2 — Remember Argentina, their story in brief contained in Dean Baker advice to Ireland back in late 2010:
The other point that should be kept in mind is that even a relatively small country like Ireland has options. Specifically, they could drop out of the euro and default on their debt. This is hardly a first best option, but if the alternative is an indefinite stint of double-digit unemployment, then leaving the euro and default look much more attractive.
The ECB and the IMF will insist that this is the road to disaster, but their credibility on this point is near zero. There is an obvious precedent. Back in the 2001, the IMF was pushing Argentina to pursue ever more stringent austerity measures. Like Ireland, Argentina had also been a poster child of the neoliberal crew before it ran into difficulties.
But the IMF can turn quickly. Its austerity programme lowered GDP by almost 10% and pushed the unemployment rate well into the double digits. By the end of the 2001, it was politically impossible for the Argentine government to agree to more austerity. As a result, it broke the supposedly unbreakable link between its currency and the dollar and defaulted on its debt.
The immediate effect was to make the economy worse, but by the second half of 2002, the economy was again growing. This was the start of five and a half years of solid growth, until the world economic crisis eventually took its toll in 2009.
P.S. to Greece 3 — Read this too, at least the headline, replacing IMF with ECB: Are We Better Off Getting Advice from the IMF than from a Drunk in the Street?



53 Comments

Yep, rec’d. Hurt the bankers, take them down.
Great catch on the agents provacateurs in Spain, too.
Oh I will go with the drunk every time. They have a much better record as far as advice goes.
Thanks for reporting to us on this. The people of Greece are awake now. All the rest is IMF and EU propaganda.
“Greece: Eurozone ministers delay decision on vital loan’
Oh this will go over REAL big there. Expect the current government to be forced out and replace by one that gives the IMF and EU the finger just like Iceland did.
Athens protests: Syntagma Square on frontline of European austerity protests
Good drunks give great, bad drunks bad, advice. Sounded that way to this drunk. The IMF/ECB are bad bloated ego abusive drunks drunk with power.
Here we go again – and could you do me a big favor? There is this rumor that some American ‘agents provocateurs’ are cheering on the Greeks to bring Europe down and to destroy the Euro – Could you please post somthing under the title: “First we take Wall Street -(the real criminals who REALLY destroyed Greece) – and the we take Athens or Berlin!
recommended. I already know my answer to the rhetorical question Are we better off getting advice from IMF than a drunk in the street. The correct answer is: Choose the drunk in the street over the IMF.
Greece is between a rock and a hard place.
Yes, they can follow the route of Argentina, but it took Argentina 8 years before investors would look at their nation again. There will be no quick fix. People will suffer under either solution at least for a while. As I see it the choices are:
1. Bend over for the European Bankers and IMF
2. Default
3. Do something new and entirely different: Not only tax, but collect taxes from the rich. [That's a lesson the USA could learn. It's not enough to say the rich should pay 35% of their income in Fed Taxes, this money must also be collected.]
4. Design a new economy that is not dependent on borrowing from other richer nations. What would that look like?
5. Other and/or a combination of 1,2,3, and 4.
In looking to Argentina:
I’ve read that people living under the poverty line in Argentina doubled in 2002 following the collapse so that’s likely another price that Greece will pay–deep poverty which of course in turn destabilizes the country politically.
Thanks – you paint a more realistic picture – but my favorite resolution still would be to hold Goldman and thus American banks responsible first – and then we discuss all other options!
One remarkably similar to the one they had BEFORE they joined the EU.
You really should write your own diary. Doing them will aid in your ideological and intellectual growth.
Before you do, look up ‘agent provocateur’ in a dictionary. Or don’t, and use your own definitions for everything. That’s also fun.
Is there a meaningful difference in culpability between the giant U.S. banks and the giant European banks? It’s crystal clear they’re a single ‘unit’ out to control/destroy the world.
yup
“Beware of agents provocateur.” Always good advice; not just in Europe. Here and now.
Oh come on – then forget the silly words and ‘feel’ the content –
You are a European – let’s say a Greek or even a German and then a member of the glorious nation who send over Goldman-S-dudes to let your government hide the debt to get into ‘the Euro’ writes joyfully: And, uh, maybe Greece should ‘do an Argentina’?
What would be YOUR response? ‘Why don’t you f… yourself’?
(and that wasn’t my reaction I just tried to write something funny about ‘agents provocateurs’…
Here’s a great youtube… Anti-austerity protests spread across Europe…
Wonder how the the Bilderbergers will take the news…
I can’t help thinking about the lack of protests here. There is a psychological aspect to this I think and not the one you might think.
What I’m thinking of is the abused spouse/worker/child that takes it and takes it and takes it until one day S N A P just goes totally postal.
I found this interesting, especially the comments…http://golemxiv-credo.blogspot.com/2011/06/guest-post-by-hawkeye-irresponsible.html
That would make a good blog itself.
Thanks for posting this and keeping us informed on this crucial struggle. Recc’d.
How old are you?
Bingo! Americans will skip the protests. They will RIOT! Know where your fire extinguisher is and how to use it.
Argentina’s economy bottomed out in the third quarter of 2002, and by October 2008 Mark Weisbrot was able to report:
So, whether foreign investors looked Argentina’s way or not for eight years, her economy began to grow, rapidly. So Greece’s choice may realistically be 9 months more of hard times versus forever.
Foreign investment is way over-rated, and, if it requires austerity in order to entice it, that’s a bad economic development deal. Development toward first world status depends on an increasingly well-paid working class, not an increasingly crappily paid one. As we can see by Europe’s de-development crisis, caused by the EU/ECB/IMF.
Finally, just a reminder about the IMF from David Rosnick and Mark Weisbrot:
Political Forecasting? The IMF’s Flawed Growth Projections for Argentina and Venezuela
When conventional economists say something is impossible, it’s always good to slap ‘em in the face with recent reality.
Of course. We get better media coverage that way.
“What if they had a war and no one showed up?”
What if the unwashed masses said fuck Bono and the Banksters and did not pay another Euro, dollar or dinar?
Seriously, what would happen? During the TARP bail out I like a mad man shouted from the tree tops, “The Emperor has no clothes!” We did not have to give away Trillions of dollars! Most if not all bought into the corporate media propaganda hook, line and sink-us!
Like some in the deep south found it hard to leave the plantation after a life time of slavery, most fear a world without our over lords.
Maybe Greece should take a few pointers from this guy:
http://www.legalzoom.com/legal-headlines/celebrity-lawsuits/how-does-trump-repeatedly-file
While I am NO fan of “The Donald”, I grudgingly admire his ability to make the banks do HIS bidding.
WTF?
are you high?
And of course they were free.
Die on your feet or live on your knees.
Or in Argentina’s case, how about they give the banksters the finger, tell them to go F themselves, take the hits and come back better than ever and be free.
Always better not to live as a slave.
nice dude.
very nice.
please write about it here.
people need to read it.
sorry, bt caltech’s info. IS A MUST READ!!!
http://golemxiv-credo.blogspot.com/2011/06/guest-post-by-hawkeye-irresponsible.html
from the comments:
“mikehall said…
Well, I’ve just been watching videos from the recent Dublin conference organised by smarttaxes.org
They are about half way down the page entitled ‘Videos of Lessons from The Crisis’
Most important are the presentations by Stepanie Kelton, Bill Black & Randall Wray (all of the University of Missouri Kansas City – same as Michael Hudson) are an absolute MUST SEE. A superb critique of the Euro common currency as set up. An explanation of ‘Modern Monetary Theory’ (MMT) & how it’s ideas contrast with the current neo-liberal mess – everyone should understand this. And more. It’s completely obvious that if MMT’s principles were adopted, we could have a way out of the banksters’ scam, the debt & austerity nightmare. This is what the current ‘authorities’ – be they mainstream economists, politicians or media – do not want people to know.
@Stevifinn ”
the link to this is http://smarttaxes.org/2011/06/08/videos-of-lessons-from-the-crisis/
and the main site also is informative: http://smarttaxes.org/
also form the comments:
“Crinkly & Ragged Arsed Philosophers said…
In a dog eat dog world; when all the dogs have been eaten except the last two -what do they do?”
sorry again,
from http://golemxiv-credo.blogspot.com/2011/06/guest-post-by-hawkeye-irresponsible.html,
“steviefinn said…
The bottom line as usual, thanks folks.
Seems as though from reading different blogs & articles that there are a lot of people ready to start giving out yellow triangles to the Greeks, for being lazy etc etc. Here’s an article from a Greek that gives some statistics that disprove most of the ugly generalisations being made. It’s also a heartfelt passionate call for resistance.
http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/democracy-vs-mythology-the-battle-in-syntagma-square/#comment-861”
got that LAST link, read it.
oh, is that an ideology you’re displaying now? And it’s right-wing at that.
The ‘cool’ kids would not be impressed.
No.. well possibly. It’s a troll and possibly a sock-puppet who’s afflicted with multiple persona syndrome. Either she’s a German-American, or a Hungarian Transvestite.
Speak of the devils..
What you don’t know about the Bilderberg Group
This is about Hungarys default, also from the studyblog.
A little note on the IMF
Here are some discussions of the Argentine default and recovery model: http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=11444
and the proceedings from last year’s fiscal sustainability Teach-In Counter-Conference:
http://www.netrootsmass.net/fiscal-sustainability-teach-in-and-counter-conference/pavlina-tcherneva-l-randall-wray-policy-proposals-for-fiscal-sustainability/
Argentina has never looked back.
Since the cold war and the McCarthy era the US has made science of busting up, fracturing, infiltrating any type of civil rights, social justice, animal rights, ecology, or anti-war groups, protesters or dissenters.
What our overlords learned elsewhere through experimentation they brought back here as a well honed science.
They don’t have to resort to assassination of leaders anymore either, sex and ethics scandals can take ‘em out without all the societal trauma if they aren’t well embedded dictators like Assad or Kadhaffi.
Really, you should do a diary.
A parasitic individual that passes his debts on to the public through bankruptcies, and write offs, and then offshores his ill gotten gains cant be compared with a state government. Also, they can’t lobby the government like he can.
I read on indymedia a few years ago that the greeks, who have been rioting off and on for a few years know how to distinguish the anarchists from the right wing agent provacateurs.
Before a civil disobedience/strategic bombing/fire – the left wingers were very careful to clear the buildings of people, the right wingers want civilian casualties.
you’re a funny bunch of people – you celebrate the ‘outraged’ with words like: “That’s some sweet inspiring music for the rest of us! Good on you, Greek people” – and if an’aganaktismenoi’ appears you ask him: How old are you? or ‘Are you high’?
You love Greece -(and before Egypt) – for it’s ‘revolutionary’ spirit and you give a lot of ‘political’ advice and if somebody tells you that in these countries ‘political’ advice from the right AND the left isn’t that popular anymore -(beause both sides f.. up tremendously) – you try to deny it as much as the fact that if there would be a country where you could make a case for ‘austeriy’ it would be Greece…
And I kow – I know – these are confusing times and every word can be a contradiction – so please why don’t you start your own ‘revolution’?
and if I forgot: I’m all for sticking it to the banksters to the utmost degree AND for sharing the consequences so no collapse just for the Greek let’s also deliver a whole new set of minds to the onlookers of this spectacle – the Americaan people!
You don’t understand that this isn’t actually a left / right issue. this is a human issue concerning class. Loan sharks of the international banking vampire squid are in control the of the US and most of the EU governments, which are becoming autocratic. The tugs from at threads of the fabric are threatening to bring it down.
The people of Greece have already been the target of harsh austerity, a condition you either don’t have the capacity to empathize with, or you don’t understand because you apparently have enough money to go travelling around europe, or so you say because your relationship with the truth seems rather tenuous.
Here: there’s some nice charts for ya incase you don’t like to read. http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/
Greece isn’t your country, and if you are going to advocate a solution the least you could do is learn about the problem. There are some great links in these diaries on Greece, especially bcaltech and tambershall’s below. Why don’t you try reading some of them.
Thank you that’s exactly the point and my understanding: That it actually is NOT a ‘right’ or ‘left’ issue – but that’s the way it’s battled out right here.
The disgust of a lot of the younger crowd has to do with all this useless ideological baggage and programs which have offered NO resolutions at all yet. And the’international banking vampire squid’ might be the main problem but it’s only one of many. Greece isn’t your country and if y’all are going to advocate all these solutions the least you could do is learn about their problems -(and perhaps not only via the Intertubes) – Okay – you live far – far away on the ‘American isle’ and for us living in Europe – Greece is a part of us – as is Spain and Italy and every other European nation – and so most of us know what’s going on -(and you actually don’t have to have ‘that’ much money to get there) – So – to make a long story short – there are some great contradictions in the REAL story and fairleft did us all the ‘good’ service to present it in the story of this Greek student writing about:’No politics please’ – and if you are willing to leave a certain ‘political’ bubble you even can find on the Intertubes many links which will enlighten you!
Hey – and I even didn’t talk about that ‘funny’ problem we seem to have! -(do you know that there is a poll where the ‘world’ voted that Americans are the funniest people on the planet?) -
Wich brings me to the question: Do you really think I’m a Hungarian Transvestite? (and I have a ‘truth; problem)
Or are you just pulling my f… leg?
NATO cant defeat the fucking Taliban. Its hard to see them ruling the world.
‘Argentina’ should be the word on every Greek’s lips, it is just such a great, ‘happy ending’, ‘f### you’ example.
Play that thing one more time, Cee Lo!
There are many examples of the prosperity of sovereign nation’s domestic economy once the IMF and World Bank are told to take a hike, Malaysia comes to mind and that was several years ago IIRC.
The worse thing developing/underdeveloped nations can do is let either the IMF or the World Bank get a stranglehold on their domestic economies.
See Malaysia. That’s what it looks like.
hehe…be careful what you wish for…full disclosure: I used to (in a former life) blog as “Bro” on my sister’s little website/blog, Blue Herald.Com, mostly just commenting and only on rare occasions writing opinion pieces to post. She used to try to encourage me to write more and my response was- that I really don’t have anything to say that isn’t already being said by someone else. Then everyday life got in the way of the primary contributors over there and my sister put the site in “hiatis” and so in looking for a new home to rant/vent I find myself here. Hung out at HuffnPuff for a while but no explanation needed here on why I abandoned HuffPost. BTW, nice bunch of folks here for the most part. I’ll try to behave myself. hehe
shekisessesforgs – Hungary another.