Rep. Louie Gohmert, like just about everyone else, calls the Aurora, Colorado massacre, in which at least 12 have died, “a senseless, crazy act of terror.”
However, the Huffington Post headlines Gohmert’s statements like this: Louie Gohmert: Aurora Shootings Result Of ‘Ongoing Attacks On Judeo-Christian Beliefs’. That lie is now widely echoed across the nets. For example, Steve Benen piles on at MaddowBlog: “So, in the mind of this strange Republican congressman, a madman killed 12 people because of … the separation of church and State? The First Amendment is to blame for a shooting spree in a movie theater?”
Gohmert makes no cause-and-effect statement about the Aurora incident, but does say that he believes an increase in all such senseless acts of mass murder is a result of a general decline in Judeo-Christian values here in the U.S. I personally don’t think of this as a weird, unreasonable or ridiculous point of view. I disagree with Gohmert, but think we could have a reasonable and respectful discussion on the issue.
Lying about what Gohmert said, as HuffPost and MaddowBlog and others have done, replaces that potential discussion with ridicule. Of course, if you believe Gohmert supporters — who were likely nodding their heads ‘yes’ while he spoke about the harmful effects of a decline in Judeo-Christian values — are hopeless racist lunatics, respectful engagement doesn’t matter and you can ignore this diary.
By the way, Gohmert also suggests in the interview that a conceal-and-carry law might have helped prevent the Aurora massacre, and he is surprised when his host tells him that Colorado already has such a law. So, on that issue, maybe ridicule would’ve been a sensible response, because you don’t have to bend the facts at all to get to the laugh line.
Anyway, most of us here agree that Gohmert is generally wrong and mixed-up about what’s wrong with the U.S. However, many potential allies and members of a populist left agree with his main point, about the damaging effects of a ‘decline in Judeo-Christian values,’ whatever that means (it can of course mean almost anything). Lying about what he said in that regard and then ridiculing him for what he ‘said’ is not the way to connect with those folks, in my humble opinion.
Meanwhile, New York mayor Bloomberg raises the right issue, probably the only thing we should be discussing related to the killings right this minute:
“No matter where you stand on the Second Amendment… we have a right to hear from both of them concretely… what are they going to do about guns.”
Sorry mayor, nothing from either of them. (Those Obama and Romney press releases, by the way, generated this header from Salon: Romney ducks gun control.)
P.S. — On second thought, I think it is also useful to bring up that, based on the recent history of utterly senseless killings in the U.S. (where the alleged assailant apparently has no history of violent or disruptive mental illness, and there are no political or religious overtones to the acts), that this tragedy likely involves antidepressants, specifically the delicate and dangerous task of withdrawal. Dr. David Healy’s blog is the best place to begin exploring the antidepressant story in detail.



46 Comments

Louie should get a free long-term vacation in Norway. Maybe you too. Would you pass that up?
When you learn that Maddow Blog and Fox News work for the same masters … you’ll get me.
Knew that. Ready?
I’m interested in a respectful discussion on any of the issues raised in this diary, with you or anyone else here.
How can one agree with what one doesn’t understand? Eager to compromise, aren’t we?
Many agree that there’s been a decline in what they think Gohmert is referring to. I’m the one saying it’s not clear, at all, what ‘decline in Judeo-Christian values’ means.
How about “the damage they attribute to Judeo-Christian values.”
When is such as Louie, who is probably not above religious demagoguery, going to admit that sometimes, “God” is the problem? And just what is Louie suggesting that “God” would have done for this miserable creature?
Really, these “leader’s” need to learn to not let their idiocy be seen in tragedy. And I need to learn not to waste my time on them.
Should be “the damage they attribute to a decline in Judeo-Christian values.”
Once upon a time, we had trained sociologists, and psychiatrists who thoroughly examined people who committed such acts of violence in order to ascertain “Why”?
Since “law and order”, we fry em and forget em. While that has an emotional appeal, it does not answer the question “Why”? An answer to that question is the only thing that can possibly prevent such an act from recurring.
I’m sure Fox and Rush will have answers that satisfy their audiences, after all they’re both trained sociologists and psychiatrists.
When a disease kills someone, they take a biopsy and send it to the lab where a pathologist examines it under a microscope. Once upon a time, this is the way people who committed acts such as this were examined, before they were handed over to the “law and order” system.
In regard to pills; I have acute pain in my shoulder that was X-rayed and diagnosed as arthritis. Pain pills were prescribed; they stopped the pain. Today, I woke up feeling like I had a hangover. That’s not all; I couldn’t remember where I put anything, and when I tried to write, I couldn’t spell words that were familiar to me; still can’t, even as I’m trying to write this. No, I didn’t take any pain pills today, nor will I take any tomorrow.
I greatly suspect that this patient would have require preventative medicine. Hell, that’s not profitable.
Preventative medicine means study by sociologists and psychiatrists who are paid by taxes out of that pool of money that we all pay into; which right wing politicians view as their personal property, and somehow they have convinced the morons who vote for them that it is the morons money they are protecting. But what can you expect from a moron.
So first it was Zimmerman and now you’re defending Gohmert? Maybe I can come back next week and you’ll have a vigorous defense of Pol Pot posted.
Weak…
Who is the mad woman shouting at?
I haven’t followed any coverage of this since early this morning, Fairleft. Is there already some indication the apparent shooter was on anti-depressants?
I cannot help it. I have a gut feeling that the alleged shooter was experiencing a bipolar psychotic break.
I say this because of his age, and because of some of the descriptions- ie., a loner, smart kid in school + a couple of other things. Bipolar illness is a serious illness that can have onset in young adulthood.
Not a lot of information at this point- just a gut feeling.
Don’t know about anti-depressants, wd, but reports are that he was a former med student.
I’m wondering, however, if the shooter is a military veteran, since newspaper reports state that his apartment was “rigged with sophisticated explosives.” Could this tragic episode have been the manifestation of PTSD?
Mad As Hell
Hmm, the pattern you see is that I’m attacking the media rather than defending anyone. MSNBC and HuffPost have the same kind of gigantic soulless corporate ownership as Fox. They pull oars on the opposite side of the two-party plutocracy boat but in the same direction.
No, no direct evidence. Here is some of the latest on the suspect:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/james-holmes-shooting_n_1690726.html
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/31290369/detail.html
I’m suspicious because of the absence of motive and, apparently, no history of violent behavior and no previous encounters with law enforcement, which is similar to homicidal episodes associated with withdrawing from antidepressants.
Doesn’t such a dramatic break usually involves some sort of (sometimes self-imposed) environmental deprivation? Anyway, his mother said a few hours ago that she was not extremely surprised the massacre involved her son. So, she saw something developing; we’ll know a lot more in the next 24-48 hours I think.
No, he wasn’t in the military, but definitely sophisticated knowledge of explosives and how to rig those up.
Thanks for the info. I’ve actually heard only the initial AP radio report (and read one news report).
Hope you do a follow-up report.
MAH
According to the Huffington Post, this is what transpired:
Do you have a different transcript of Istook’s show?
Yeah, Louie is a religious demagogue.
A PhD candidate in neuroscience (that is generally confirmed by the media). Been in the program for two years apparently (BA UC Riverside 2010, neuroscience, highest honors).
Reported to be not terribly social by a couple of sources.
A hypothesis: Aspergers. Which does not explain why he carried out a mass murder of strangers by any stretch of the imagination.
A hypothesis: PhD exam prep stress. Ditto.
Unconfirmed report that he had this thing about the Joker and dyed his hair red. Ditto. Lots of folks fit that profile.
Would not be surprised if your anti-depressant (or some other pharmaceutical) hypothesis turns out to be correct.
So now and intriguing question. Is there any relationship between a drug reaction and the fact that he was a PhD candidate in neuroscience?
And what does his withdrawal from the PhD program mean? Is this a euphemism for he flunked in the critical judgment of his department but they granted him the cover of withdrawal?
Well, it sounds like she was concerned about something developing. To be honest, I have close person who once experienced a manic psychotic break during this age frame, and it was one of the most bizarre, disorienting things I have ever seen. My heart goes out to everyone in this tragic situation, and, in this case, I really do not believe the man was in contact with reality.
From wiki, on the manic phase in particular, and as a note, bipolar is, more often than not misdiagnosed as depression at the outset:
Again, this is just an initial gut feeling. Have no idea what really happened here.
He “puts on the crazy” about as good as his competitors – Bachmann, Foxx, Schmidt,…attracts attention, funding, and votes. What’s not to like?
However Huffington Post characterized it, the comment was self serving. If you want to read crap, then by all means, keep giving
Huffington PostAOL traffic. You can’t treat a tabloid like a serious news site and ranting about every conservative heroes poor treatment does no one any good, with the possible exception of your perpetual outrage. As for your “attacking the media”, how come those attacks never include FOX?Gohmert is a certifiable nut case. At one of my favorite sites, Juanita Jean’s, he is taken apart on a regular basis – at least once a week. The shooter didn’t do this because WE are not religious – he did it because he is mentally ill and needs to be locked up for the rest of his life. People like Gohmert should not be allowed to make the pain of families worse. He should just STFU.
HuffPost also provides the actual audiotape or a link to it, on which you can hear Rep. Gohmert say, close to the beginning of the interview, that the massacre was “a senseless, crazy act of terror.”
I don’t think a manic/psychotic break — which coincidentally a person I was very close to also experienced at roughly the same age as the alleged perpetrator — matches up with the obvious careful and detailed preparation and the deliberate and ‘tunnel vision’ way of carrying out the crime. That is reminiscent of several relatively recent antidepressant-related massacres, for example the one at Northern Illinois University.
We’ll see …
There’s no one here that has illusions about the lying nature of Fox, which I pretty much never look at, but many here are in deep delusion about, for example, Rachel Maddow. Since you think pointing out a lie means I’m ‘defending conservative heroes’, it sounds like you might be caught up in the mainstream media’s pretend world where there are bad guys over there (Fox) and good guys over here (MSNBC) (or vice versa). That’s not the case, and the only way to pretend it is the case is to lie and mislead.
But why are such incidents increasingly common in American life over the last ten/twenty years? Everyone notices this phenomenon . . .
The point is that Gohmert is speaking a commonly held belief, that a cultural/religious deterioration over recent decades has had negative social repercussions, one of which is an increasing number of senseless massacres. The left can answer or challenge this belief, or it can dismiss it and ridicule it by distorting what Gohmert said and making fun of him. I’d rather not take HuffPost and Maddow Blog’s lead on the matter.
I think there is a more productive way to deal with such at least partially false and misguided beliefs. It starts not with respecting Gohmert, but with respecting the people who have apparently been bamboozled by Gohmert and are his supporters, and respecting some of what they believe or, at least, ‘where they’re coming from’.
Suggesting that I am a media dupe is specious, ad hominem and in no way addresses the fact that you apparently have a personal vendetta against MSNBC, (which I never watch btw), and that you continually call out MSNBC and it’s always because some conservative figure is being treated unfairly in your mind. If other people are blind enough to believe that you are either “fair” or “left”, then that’s their problem. I suffer no such delusions. I know what you are and why you are here and know what? I’m going to keep pointing it out. So by all means, keep posting your outrage at everybody that the tea party movement and Rush Limbaugh claim are “liberal”.
You act like this is an honest debate from the beginning. It isn’t. Goehmert and the other House “crazies” are using the outrage of the left against their patently outrageous statements as a means of legitimizing their power with their base. It is cynical and pathetic. And it deserves ridicule because every one of these folks, Michele Bachmann included, knows exactly what they are doing. They are not dumb. They are charlatans playing the rubes. People who have past records of responsible actions that got them to the point of running for office do not suddenly go over the edge like Goehmert, Bachmann, Foxx, Schmidt, the two Kings, and other House “crazies” do.
The best strategy would be to ignore them, but ridicule beats any attempt at rational argument against these outrageous points.
The religious/moral argument of decline has been promoted since World War II by self-serving preachers seeking through fear to protect their jobs from the declining religiosity of the US population. Which has led to a number of notable religiously/morally motivated terrorist attacks and mass murders even as it is the oh so religious politicians who have led to the corruption and moral decline in Washington and state capitols.
As the least the argument is overstated. At the maximum, it is self-fulfilling.
And it likely has little, if anything at all, to do with the mass murders like occurred at Virginia Tech, at Columbine, or at Aurora. But everything to do with Oklahoma City, the shooting of a doctor in church, and several doctors in their homes.
Excellent summations, TD and Margaret. These religious demagogues will justify their fraud and scurrilousness as a necessary evil. They have are core to the corrupt “conservative” addiction to projection and demonization for self-acquittal.
I will be asking where the honestright is every time I see fairleft provocating.
So your ‘solution’ is to lie about what Gohmert says? That’s all this diary is essentially about: don’t lie.
It is not ad hominem because I supported my point with your comment, in which you interpreted my criticism of lying as support for conservative heroes. You did not speak to this criticism. Again, how is pointing out that Maddow Blog and HuffPost are lying about what Ohmert said ‘supporting conservative heroes’?
My record of diaries speaks for itself, because it features criticism of Romney and the ‘official’ right as well as criticism of the right-wing Democratic party and its media subsidiaries.
Well, no, not really. This diary is about a specific case in which HuffPost, MaddowBlog and presumably an array of other ‘corporate-sponsored liberal’ sites lied about what Rep. Ohmert said. Do you think that was a good thing to do or not? Why?
And good to have you on board for my diaries that attack corporate ‘left’ media and media lying and misleading in general. If you’d like to read or be a watchdog on similar analysis, make a habit of reading http://www.dailyhowler.blogspot.com
Comrade, why did you moniker yourself “fairleft”?
Now let me provide context to your readers and prove that Huffington Post’s characterization was spot on. Since you won’t provide the entire comment, I will:
Self serving, dogmatic bullshit, no matter how much you try to defend the guy. Your record DOES indeed “speak for itself” and here is more evidence of what I’m accusing you of. You take the one sentence out of his statement that makes him sound sane and rational in order to defend the man against wholly justified commentary about what a bible thumping, self serving jerk he is but conveniently crop out the part that illustrates HuffPo’s point. And now everybody here knows too.
Kind of ironic, isn’t it, that fairleft would defend Gohmert by using the very same tactic that s/he’s accusing Huffington Post of using? But par for the course for right wing trolls.
Nothing to add fairleft? No rants about how the Congressional record is too “liberal”?
Thank you for eliminating that irony, Margaret.
Have we witnessed the consummation of a right-wing oozlefinch?
As your direct quote shows, the HuffPost headline and the MaddowBlog contributor lied about what Gohmert said. He was explicitly talking about such attacks in general, and mentions the one in Norway.
I oppose lying about what others say, even those with generally far-right points of view. As I said in the diary, why lie when you can use what he actually said to attack him? Because you can attack him ‘better’ by making up stuff about him? I don’t think it works that way. Such ‘lie’ attacks are only effective in riling up the MSNBC devotee base, and have no reach into Gohmert’s base, which is quickly informed that they are lies.
I think you need to understand that you disagree with me on the above. When you get there, I hope you change your way of thinking.
Try specifics. They’ll reveal to you that you’re wrong.