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We also hear, on that KCAL recording of police audio, the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s officer saying/shouting, “Burn [unintelligible] out. … Burn it down. … Burn that motherf**ker.” And then there is a second audio, that you can find at the Guardian, where (presumably) a Sheriff’s Department officer states, “We’re going to go forward with the plan, with the burn … the one that … like we talked about.” Two audios, both pretty clearly authentic, and both indicating the obvious, that the police deliberately set fire to the cabin that Chris Dorner was holed up in.
So why is this the headline everywhere — EVERYWHERE — at the top of mainstream news:
Sheriff: Cabin fire wasn’t intentional
We have very solid evidence that that’s ridiculous. The police more than anyone else know it. The host of that KCAL recording is a police insiders’ site, and almost all the comments below the recording article are like the following:
Posted by choihonghi on Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:40 PM Pacific
Even if they had really meant burn it down it would have still been a reasonable response as he was trying to kill people.If you start it on fire he will either have to come out or die. Either scenario would be good. If he stayed inside, he would die. Problem solved. If he came out he would either surrender or be shot. Either way problem solved.Posted by ralicea1 on Wednesday, February 13, 2013 08:12 PM Pacific
If the only way to stop that threat is to burn the cabin down so be it … rather that then another blue getting hurt by the POS.
Another poster responds to such posts:
Posted by RealOscar on Wednesday, February 13, 2013 09:12 PM Pacific
I am amazed by the comments on here. “No reason why the tear gas would set the place afire”, “POS”, “Can’t we scramble our signals?” and “doesn’t matter if they burned him (to death)”. If we want the law enforcement profession to be valued, then we need to act professional, know our duties and limitations and always be above and beyond reproach. Know your equipment and its risks. …
RealOscar is vastly outnumbered among the cops and cop-friendlies at that site, and that’s very sad. But what can we expect these days? Where is support in the mainstream for him and his type of ‘normal’ (to my way of thinking) policing, the kind that doesn’t kill people unnecessarily? Nowhere in the USA. For example, will a single Repub/Dem politician question or condemn the “burn the f**ker down” approach? No, ‘our leaders’ won’t. In fact they and their media will do their best to blackhole the obvious truth, and they’ll top that off by condemning reality speakers with “support the police” rants and claims that those who can hear police audio are ‘conspiracy theorists’.
Other great myfiredoglake diaries and comment threads on the police and Dorner are here and here. Other good links at this Atlantic live blog.
Just for the record, Chris Dorner was a horrible excuse for a justice seeker. Not someone to emulate or respect.
33 Comments
Who ya gonna believe, though, the sheriff or your own lyin’ ears?
Of course it was deliberately burned down.
The guy could’ve come out completely naked with his hands tied together above his head surrendering and they would’ve killed him.
They were NEVER, EVER going to take him alive, especially after he killed another officer yesterday.
And if I were a police officer, I’d feel the same way. Especially since I know that I would NEVER, EVER be held accountable for it.
We simply don’t hold police accountable anymore (another example of the lack of accountability) so I absolutely don’t blame them for burning the fucker down, and putting 50 rounds in his burned carcass after they burned it. If someone had just murdered a member of my family, I’d want to do the same thing.
Not saying that makes it right, I’m just sayin…
Well, I do blame them. They should be held accountable, but all of us who’ve devolved this failed democracy, especially our politicians and media, have some responsibility too. Tthat doesn’t relieve the cops from responsibility and from, well, the mark of committing evil.
Of course they should be held accountable, but it’s hard for me to blame a person for reacting in a perfectly normal way (wanting to avenge the murder of a family member or “brother” in arms is normal, nearly every human being would feel that rage) when they KNOW there will be no consequences.
If I knew there would be no consequences, I’d go to the nearest rich fucker’s house and steal as much as I could get, even though I know stealing is wrong. I’d do it because IMO they’ve “stolen” most of their wealth from the labor of others, and because it would be nice not to have to worry about things like food, shelter, and health care.
I’m just saying that when there is no accountability, this is the type of behavior that becomes the norm, and it’s hard for me to put the blame on the individual when IMO the majority of the blame goes to the system for not holding the individual accountable when they do wrong, or evil.
YMMV
And for whatever reason (which I do and always have vehemently disagree with) we, as a society, just do not hold police officers accountable. I would need several additional arms and legs to count with fingers and toes the number of bad acts by cops that I’ve seen go completely unpunished, including murder (remember the guy in Oakland??? that got shot in the back while laying on the ground??).
Right here in my area (northern Va.), a couple of years ago a Maryland cop followed an SUV all the way from Maryland into Virginia and into a private driveway where he shot and killed the driver, and the driver had multiple gunshot wounds in the back.
The cop said he thought the guy was a drug dealer they had been looking for (apparently drove the same SUV) but instead it was a college student returning from night classes.
The cop claimed the student had tried to use his vehicle as a weapon when they entered the driveway so he fired in self defense. Yet he admitted he NEVER identified himself as a cop (he was undercover, and so was the car he drove).
Even if true (about the vehicle), wouldn’t you feel threatened if a car followed you from one state into another and right up into your driveway and it wasn’t a police car??? I know I would.
That cop didn’t get so much as a memo in his record.
And I’ve seen it repeated accross the country hundreds of times.
No, it’s not a perfectly normal way to react. It’s a perfectly normal first feeling by the reptilian level of our minds, and then the higher order thinking kicks in and says ‘BUT THAT WOULD BE WRONG’ and that’s the end of it.
Also, I think there’s far too much cop show pseudo-reality creeping into your perspective and into the perspective of cops. We know that’s a standard feature of those melodramas, murder-avenging a fallen comrade cop. So most cops probably feel “they have to kill him” because after all that’s what the cop show church says all cops always must do. Shows with that sick immoral perspective would be rare if not illegal in a democratically controlled mass media.
A lot of us are not held accountable or have minimal accountability, but don’t become criminals or complete losers. Most public schools teachers, for example, have tenure and strong unions and therefore not a helluva lot of accountability. But most of those folks, from my experience, work hard and do a pretty good to excellent job. They don’t suddenly become minimal work a–holes.
Yeah, it’s a sick deal. The problem right now is that I think it’s getting worse … if that’s possible. I think it has something to do with the rise of ‘support the troops’ militarism, fear, and ‘shut up and obey’ since 9/11.
I’m with fairleft. This is not a perfectly normal way to behave. This is what they want us to think is the ‘new normal’ – which is not and never will be normal. There is a normal human reaction which is to respect life, human life, even the life of a murderer, and use the least force practical to apprehend for trial. That should be paramount, especially in the case of those we hire to protect us.
Well, we’ll agree to disagree then.
IMO if you took 100 people that had just witnessed a loved one murdered 75-85 of them would want to kill the murderer that just took their family member. That’s why I say “normal” because I believe most people’s initial feelings (after horror) would be revenge.
What separates a civil society from an anarchy is the ability of those people to refrain from acting on that gut instinct and IMO when society doesn’t hold them accountable for acting on that gut instinct it makes it more likely to occur.
I’m not sure if the numbers are as high as I think because I’ve never seen a survey, but I’ve also never seen one to rebut it. And perhaps propaganda has made that reaction more likely but irregardless of WHY the reaction of wanting revenge occurs I do believe it occurs in a majority of people. Most especially males IMO (sorry for the sexist belief, it’s just based on my lifetime of observations).
I know for a fact that if I were in a room and saw my son murdered and I had access to a gun the person I saw murder my son would soon be dead. Or I would. Or at least that be one of my first thoughts. I would hope that, in that moment, I have enough restraint to keep from acting on that, but if I knew I could do it with no accountability whatsoever I think refraining from acting on it would be a lot harder. That’s the point I’m trying to make, but I guess we disagree that this reaction is what in fact most people would feel.
It would be interesting if we had some actual data to see what most people’s first reaction to something like would be.
I don’t disagree that you’d want to, if it was your immediate family. But that first urge isn’t acted on by a person with normal self-control and normal morality. The cops act on that first primitive revenge feeling. And not for immediate family but for all the complete strangers that happen to be members of their vast clan. It’s an unnatural warped morality produced, frankly, by television’s cop show church.
I found the headline odd, too.
To OldFatGuy, the guy in Oakland is Oscar Grant. You might be interested to know that Someone just won an award at Sundance for making a film about the BART shooting called “Fruitvale“.
There’s a simple distinction to make here: 1) Having feelings, even very nasty ones, is in fact “normal”; but 2) acting on them isn’t “normal,” especially when it involves a conspiracy to commit extra-judicial murder.
Law enforcement agencies are, by definition, supposed to uphold the LAW, not their feelings. They are supposed to conduct themselves in a manner consistent with their charge, their training and the departments’ “values,” whatever those are.
I’ve wanted some sort of revenge too, but I’ve never stooped so low as to act in a manner well outside what I consider to be “right,” just for my own sake, if no one else’s.
What this incident—in addition to the wanton shootings of innocents who didn’t even come close to matching the description–shows, is that “law enforcement” is not beholden to the law or any notion of justice. As citizens we should not have to feel threatened by those charged with upholding the law. And in this case, the cops went well out of their way to prove some of Dorner’s charges correct and we are all a little bit less safe because of it.
Dorner snapped and chose his path, so no sympathy from me on that score. But that doesn’t justify alleged “professionals” tossing their duty onto the bonfire just so they could “get some.”
Exactly. That’s the point I’ve been trying to make (but obviously failing).
I don’t think it “right” or “normal” to act on those initial feelsing either, but I do believe it’s normal to have them. And, IMO, if one knows there would be no accountability for acting on them (such as cops know they won’t be held accountable), then more people would act on them.
Thus the system is as much to blame as the individual since IMO it’s making that outcome more likely.
I honestly believe that had Dorner walked out completely naked (to show he wasn’t hiding anything) waving a white flag with his hands tied, they still would’ve killed him. It’s not right, and there is no logic IMO that makes it right, but IMO by not ever holding cops accountable it makes an outcome like that more likely.
Right. But we pretty well know that isn’t going to happen, don’t we? I saw the clip on KCAL when they were transmitting live radio convos and when one officer said, “Burners deployed and we have a fire,” the reporter piped up with, “these officers are understandably upset.”
So we need to hold that reporter–and anyone else who parrots that line or similar– accountable too, on some level.
If everyone acted out on their “normal” emotions the way cops feel free to today, every city would resemble the OK Corral. In a sense, I think Dornan himself epitomized that sort of mentality. What I find most disturbing in all this is the way it’s being excused. The apologia is sending the wrong message: “Get some.”
Every day, tens of millions of human beings successfully resist the urge to act out on dark emotions. You’d think highly paid Public
PredatorsServants would be held to a higher standard. But these days, I’d take a common standard that most people can live by quite successfully.Maybe the thing I’m doing wrong here is mixing up my “normals.”
What I mean is that I think it would be normal to want revenge. In a civilized it would not be normal to actually act on those feelings.
But in a society where there is no accountability for acting on those feelings, more people would do it, thus making it “normal” in that setting. I.E., you could expect that outcome because that’s the outcome that happens most of the time.
Maybe that explains my point/thoughts more clearly.
Or not. LOL.
We don’t disagree on knee-jerk reactions, OFG – and nobody can say really what they would do in the scenario you pose. We are not always our better angels. I am simply talking about the effect such a reaction will have on our own normal ongoing life. I agree with you that the conditions on the scene would have been emotionally conducive to violence. I simply wish for our officers of the law to be trained to disconnect from emotion and keep all damage to a minimum. They have to live with themselves also.
I know that’s not what we have. I am saying that is what we should have. So, ultimately, I don’t think we disagree.
Precisely.
When Authority acts out this way, they are literally undermining Civil Society.
Besides, in my experience, “normal” isn’t necessarily such a great standard. No one gets awards for being “Normal Actor In A Leading Role.” No one ever thought MLK or Ghandi were “normal.”
In a sense, Dornan was “normal” the same way the cops were. He was of their culture, after all. They both preferred violence over all other possibilities.
However, Dorner was able to restrain himself and not kill the three civilians he encountered near the end (the two people who found him in the cabin, and the man from whom he stole a truck). The same cannot be said of the cops who were shooting at anything that moves. I am not defending the entirety of Dorner’s behavior, just pointing out that even Dorner seemed to have some checks and balances – which ended up forcing him out of the department. I can’t imagine a non-violent person choosing to be a cop these days.
Excellent comment. A media completely submissive to heroes of state security. The only bright spot is the cluelessness (combined with police arrogance), where media like KCAL expose the cops hanging themselves, accidentally recording them conspiring to kill. Of course, the cops only ‘hung themselves’ in normie world, not this post-9/11 one.
Indeed. And no, I don’t think you’re defending his actions.
To put a finer point on it, to some extent D’s actions seem to at least partially derive from the police culture of which he was a full-fledged member until fairly recently. His statement made that pretty clear. He was speaking in their operational language and addressing LAPD in its own argot. I still think he just snapped at some point though and had he chosen a more honorable path, he might have actually done some real good. But in the end, it seems he adopted the “might makes right” ethos the LAPD has been known for since WW2 or even earlier.
The big difference, of course, is that while D applied some notion of justice, the cops didn’t even bother with that, which is why they didn’t bother to notice that blue Toyota Tundra was not, in fact, a gray Nissan Titan before trying to kill the occupants without bothering to check it out first. “Shoot first, make lame excuses later.”
Dorner is hard to defend. He is not a good example of a righteous person, in my book. If his statement is 100% accurate, I still can’t offer any sympathy for his actions. More importantly, though, the LEA’s are supposed to put the law and the public safety above their selfish impulse to violence. They are supposed to serve justice–that’s what they’re paid for.
Clearly, they are not interested in such quaint notions and that’s a far bigger problem than Dorner was ever going to be.
Yes, it’s getting worse. Think Homeland Security creating fusion centers with local law enforcement departments. Remember the coordination nationally for evicting the Occupies around the country. Also from Homeland Security, the police departments are getting more military equipment.
And there we have the crux of the problem.
And…that was Dorner’s point, trying to go through proper channels and then, when that so didn’t work for him, going through a method where he hoped his suicide by cop and his manifesto would draw enough attention to the problem to start repairing it.
Yes – honorable cop is an oxymoron these days. I tend to judge people like Dorner through my own filters, which question why someone would want to be a cop or a soldier in the context of the world we live in. Soldiers are little more than pawns in our illegal wars and cops exist to protect the oligarchs from the rest of us. Somebody as smart as Dorner had to have some serious psychological issues that made him want to immerse himself in this culture, knowing that it was racist and violent and unfair.
I get that. But in reading his statement, I couldn’t help be impressed with his intelligence and precision. Why did he not choose to become a real thorn in their side by speaking to the issue more broadly? Why didn’t he get involved with the various groups organizing around precisely the issue he spoke of? (I’m guessing there were other personal problems that were overwhelming him too–foreclosure after losing his job?)
The problem with his death–and he seemed quite aware of this–is that the media would help bury it and the circumstances surrounding it. Dead men tell no tales, after all. Now he’s just another nutter shooting the place up. That may or may not be true in his case, but the media can create that “reality” at will.
I could be wrong, of course. A vendor in Tunis self-immolated and helped start a revolution of sorts. But I don’t think that translates well here, Americans being largely an atomized population much of the time.
Their plan was to turn his hideout into a bonfire, as a warning to potential traitors among their ranks. Also, he was black, so a bonfire was appropriate for the entire community to enjoy and celebrate – just like on the old plantation. The only thing missing was lemonade and 2-cent postcards.
In a more local sense, the citizens of Los Angeles have some serious reflection to deal with soon. If they’re OK with the attitude and behavior of their police dept., so be it. If they’re not,they have to try to change it. I’m afraid we’re all going to have to deal with exactly the same thing soon, knowing what’s happening to my and other police dept.’s across the country. This can’t end well. PEACE
There used to be, 30-40 years ago, different police cultures in different cities in California. San Diego and San Francisco cops were noticeably less aggro than LA cops. Starting in the Rambo era and the overwhelming TV and movie ‘screw procedure kill the bad guys’ culture, and then with post-9/11 actions at the federal level, what has been created is a uniform right-wing vigilante-esque, militarized occupation force and anti-citizen mentality among all big city police forces. That’s the scale and deep-rootedness of the problem that the still sane among us must deal with.
Peace to you too. I think the waking up will come fairly soon but it’s just not time yet. The Obama spell/void will keep us mesmerized for another four years. After Obama many more will wake up, but to an economy that can’t make anything anymore, a massively but legally drugged population, third world distribution of income, most of the well-to-do holed up in third-world-style fortress compounds, hostile armies disguised as cops occupying our cities, and a still pervasive TV/movie culture glorifying the cops and soldiers as the only righteous people in a dirty world.
A majority has to pull the plug on their mainstream TV, the most pervasive force for pacification the PTB has left.
I’ve read the diary but not all of the comments. This situation reminds me of the 1974 SLA shootout. And, it reminds Suzanne, a former peace office of the MOVE shootout in Philadelphia.
But, Max Blumenthal seems to have gotten to the heart of the matter: http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/how-law-enforcement-and-media-covered-plan-burn-christopher-dorner-alive
Excellent writing by Blumenthal, thanks for the link.
It was Max who’d corroborated the videos of the police scanner chatter.
But this is also excellent, imo:
Excellent stuff, Wendy.