Reuel Marc Gerecht’s screed justifying an Israeli bombing attack on Iran coincides with the opening the new Israel lobby campaign marked by the introduction of House resolution 1553 expressing full support for such an Israeli attack.
What is important to understand about this campaign is that the aim of Gerecht and of the right-wing government of Benjamin Netanyahu is to support an attack by Israel so that the United States can be drawn into direct, full-scale war with Iran.
That has long been the Israeli strategy for Iran, because Israel cannot fight a war with Iran without full U.S. involvement. Israel needs to know that the United States will finish the war that Israel wants to start.
Gerecht openly expresses the hope that any Iranian response to the Israeli attack would trigger full-scale U.S. war against Iran. “If Khamenei has a death-wish, he’ll let the Revolutionary Guards mine the strait, the entrance to the Persian Gulf,” writes Gerecht. “It might be the only thing that would push President Obama to strike Iran militarily….”
Gerecht suggest that the same logic would apply to any Iranian “terrorism against the United States after an Israeli strike,” by which he really means any attack on a U.S. target in the Middle East. Gerecht writes that Obama might be “obliged” to threaten major retaliation “immediately after an Israeli surprise attack.”
That’s the key sentence in this very long Gerecht argument. Obama is not going to be “obliged” to joint an Israeli aggression against Iran unless he feels that domestic political pressures to do so are too strong to resist. That’s why the Israelis are determined to line up a strong majority in Congress and public opinion for war to foreclose Obama’s options.
In the absence of confidence that Obama would be ready to come into the war fully behind Israel, there cannot be an Israeli strike.
Gerecht’s argument for war relies on a fanciful nightmare scenario of Iran doling out nuclear weapons to Islamic extremists all over the Middle East. But the real concern of the Israelis and their lobbyists, as Gerecht’s past writing has explicitly stated, is to destroy Iran’s Islamic regime in a paroxysm of U.S. military violence.
Gerecht first revealed this Israeli-neocon fantasy as early as 2000, before the Iranian nuclear program was even taken seriously, in an essay for a book published by the Project for a New American Century. Gerecht argued that, if Iran could be caught in a “terrorist act,” the U.S. Navy should “retaliate with fury”. The purpose of such a military response, he wrote, should be to “strike with truly devastating effect against the ruling mullahs and the repressive institutions that maintain them.”
And lest anyone fail to understand what he meant by that, Gerecht was more explicit: “That is, no cruise missiles at midnight to minimize the body count. The clerics will almost certainly strike back unless Washington uses overwhelming, paralyzing force."
In 2006-07, the Israeli war party had reason to believed that it could hijack U.S. policy long enough to get the war it wanted, because it had placed one of its most militant agents, David Wurmser, in a strategic position to influence that policy.
We now know that Wurmser, formerly a close adviser to Benjamin Netanyahu and during that period Vice President Dick Cheney’s main adviser on the Middle East, urged a policy of overwhelming U.S. military force against Iran. After leaving the administration in 2007, Wurmser revealed that he had advocated a U.S. war on Iran, not to set back the nuclear program but to achieve regime change.
"Only if what we do is placed in the framework of a fundamental assault on the survival of the regime will it have a pick-up among ordinary Iranians,” Wurmser told The Telegraph. The U.S. attack was not to be limited to nuclear targets but was to be quite thorough and massively destructive. “If we start shooting, we must be prepared to fire the last shot. Don’t shoot a bear if you’re not going to kill it."
Of course, that kind of war could not be launched out of the blue. It would have required a casus belli to justify a limited initial attack that would then allow a rapid escalation of U.S. military force. In 2007, Cheney acted on Wurmser’s advice and tried to get Bush to provoke a war with Iran over Iraq, but it was foiled by the Pentagon.
As Wurmser was beginning to whisper that advice in Cheney’s ear in 2006, Gerecht was making the same argument in The Weekly Standard:
Bombing the nuclear facilities once would mean we were declaring war on the clerical regime. We shouldn’t have any illusions about that. We could not stand idly by and watch the mullahs build other sites. If the ruling mullahs were to go forward with rebuilding what they’d lost–and it would be surprising to discover the clerical regime knuckling after an initial bombing run–we’d have to strike until they stopped. And if we had any doubt about where their new facilities were (and it’s a good bet the clerical regime would try to bury new sites deep under heavily populated areas), and we were reasonably suspicious they were building again, we’d have to consider, at a minimum, using special-operations forces to penetrate suspected sites.
The idea of waging a U.S. war of destruction against Iran is obvious lunacy, which is why U.S. military leaders have strongly resisted it both during the Bush and Obama administrations. But Gerecht makes it clear that Israel believes it can use its control of Congress to pound Obama into submission. Democrats in Congress, he boasts, “are mentally in a different galaxy than they were under President Bush.” Even though Israel has increasingly been regarded around the world as a rogue state after its Gaza atrocities and the commando killings of unarmed civilians on board the Mavi Marmara, its grip on the U.S. Congress appears as strong as ever.
Moreover, polling data for 2010 show that a majority of Americans have already been manipulated into supporting war against Iran – in large part because more than two-thirds of those polled have gotten the impression that Iran already has nuclear weapons. The Israelis are apparently hoping to exploit that advantage. “If the Israelis bomb now, American public opinion will probably be with them,” writes Gerecht. “Perhaps decisively so.”
Netanyahu must be feeling good about the prospects for pressuring Barack Obama to join an Israeli war of aggression against Iran. It was Netanyahu, after all, who declared in 2001, “I know what America is. America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won’t get in the way.”



151 Comments




Guilty
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/61941
Cambodia: Starvation and Revolution
Press flak and [edited] and denier of the slaughter
I doubt this. I think it’s manufactured consent.
mac, can you be more clear and point to some things. The places you link to don’t have anything to do with him, do they?
Cambodia: Starvation and Revolution
by George C. Hildebrand, by Gareth Porter
Monthly Review Press, 124 pp., $3.25 (paper)
might be one of the most disgraceful things “written” in a long time.
when I was a teen, i admired this [edited] of a person and he betrayed his profession and his readers irremediably.
In 1976-77, continuing his challenge to the bloodbath argument, Gareth Porter rejected early accounts of the mass killings by the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia. With George Hildebrand he wrote a book, Cambodia: Starvation and Revolution, which documented the deaths from starvation of thousands of people in Phnom Penh in the last months of the war in Cambodia and argued that there was a legitimate basis for sending most of the population of Phnom Penh — much of which had been refugees from rural areas — back to rural areas. Critics have argued that the book’s sources included official statements from Khmer Rouge media about the availability of food in rural areas. Testifying before Congress in May 1977, Gareth Porter said that “the notion that the leadership of Democratic Kampuchea adopted a policy of physically eliminating whole classes of people” was “a myth fostered primarily by the authors of a Readers Digest book.”[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Porter
which part do you disagree with? I’m not too familiar with the vietnam war. I was a small child when it was going on.
Ignore Mac. He is our government minder. As usual he ignores facts when convenient. That includes Cambodia, which was just a “Sideshow” where the blame for Genocide belongs with Kissinger and Nixon and the neo-cons of the 60′s and 70′s.
As for war with Iran, Mac can hardly wait. With his insider access, I wish he would tell us why the CIA provided Iran with plans for a nuclear bomb.
Where are those fair moderators at FDL? You should be ashamed of yourselves. Allowing yet again the clear efforts of MM to sabotage a post? RBG where are you? Your willingness to allow MM to continue to do this clearly shows your own bias.
Gareth “Moreover, polling data for 2010 show that a majority of Americans have already been manipulated into supporting war against Iran – in large part because more than two-thirds of those polled have gotten the impression that Iran already has nuclear weapons.”
No need to wonder how the American people believe that Iran already has a nuclear weapons program. Diane Rehm, Chris Matthews, Neil Conan, Rachel Maddow, George Stephanapoulous, Bob Schiefer/Face the Nation, David Gregory have all allowed guest on their programs to repeat these unsubstantiated claims about Iran.
Hell NPR’s Fresh Air host Terry Gross has repeated them endlessly herself. Have heard Scott Simon repeat the “Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map” horseshit too.
Folks allowing MM to continue to sabotage another post on this subject shows a clear willingness of the moderators here at FDL to do this. Please contact them and let them know what you think
Reuel Marc Gerecht should be registered as an Israeli agent. Both Wurmsers should also be required to register as agents of influence and liars for Israel. Wurmser should be in prison for life for his part in the run up to the invasion of Iraq. Drowning in the Iraqi people’s blood. Sociopaths
shek, you don’t have to be familiar with Vietnam. Just look up “Cambodia” genocide” “mass murder” “Pol Pot”.
Porter is a genocide denying dupe; a guy who pretended to be a reporter and who printed gross lies instead of reporting truth.
A flat out sell-out [edited] and a person not worthy of trust.
Reuel Marc Gerecht is an Islamaphobe and bloody warmonger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hncb-v7ZNt0
Charles Freeman closing remarks in that same debate. Who do you trust?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHqxWBlpjMg&feature=related
Reuel Marc Gerecht. No way would this weenie ever put his own lilly white ass on the line in the unnecessary wars for Israel that he has pushed. He is an Israeli agent. Period
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ajuiSNiAnU&feature=related
So Daily Kossy so early in the morning. Did Dr. Porter kill your puppy or hurt your feelings? Plus we get to fight VietNam again. That is so yesterday.
Anything to hijack a post
Here are the blood thirsty warmongers including both Wurmsers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeOUgExFySg
If there is a hell they are going there
http://gorillaintheroom.blogspot.com/2005/03/outing-neocons-office-of-special-plans.html
David Wurmser — brought in from the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), he was one of the authors of the Clean Break paper, which was an advice piece for Binyamin Netanyahu on how to move past the Oslo peace process, retain the West Bank permanently, and undermine the governments of Iraq, Iran, and Syria. Note the wording about “Only the unconditional acceptance by Arabs of our rights, especially in their territorial dimension, ‘peace for peace,’ is a solid basis for the future. ” No Palestinian state. The “remaking” of the Middle East will allow Israel to “transcend” its enemies, rather than have to make territorial concessions. Get into Iraq –> undermine Syria and Iran –> this changes the strategic environment to allow Israel to keep the West Bank. Wurmser, along with Michael Maloof, was part of the Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group, which was the unit Feith set up to try to backfill an al-Qaeda/Saddam connection and feed that story into the White House. He’s also the husband of Meyrav Wurmser, who runs the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), an organization which translates selectively from the Arabic language press in order to paint the Arab world in a bad light and discount the idea of negotiating with the Palestinians, along with Col. Yigal Carmon, formerly with Israeli military intelligence.
Retired Lt Col Karen Kwiatowski brings up Wurmser in her important article “The New Pentagon Papers”
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2004/03/10/osp_moveon
The new Pentagon papers
A high-ranking military officer reveals how Defense Department extremists suppressed information and twisted the truth to drive the country to war.
I spent time that summer exploring the neoconservative worldview and trying to grasp what was happening inside the Pentagon.
I wondered what could explain this rush to war and disregard for real intelligence. Neoconservatives are fairly easy to study, mainly because they are few in number, and they show up at all the same parties. Examining them as individuals, it became clear that almost all have worked together, in and out of government, on national security issues for several decades. The Project for the New American Century and its now famous 1998 manifesto to President Clinton on Iraq is a recent example. But this statement was preceded by one written for Benyamin Netanyahu’s Likud Party campaign in Israel in 1996 by neoconservatives Richard Perle, David Wurmser and Douglas Feith titled “A Clean Break: Strategy for Securing the Realm.”
David Wurmser is the least known of that trio and an interesting example of the tangled neoconservative web. In 2001, the research fellow at the American Enterprise Institute was assigned to the Pentagon, then moved to the Department of State to work as deputy for the hard-line conservative undersecretary John Bolton, then to the National Security Council, and now is lodged in the office of the vice president. His wife, the prolific Meyrav Wurmser, executive director of the Middle East Media Research Institute, is also a neoconservative team player.
It would appear to me that Mr. Porter has made public admissions of his change of mind as concerns the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot.
From your link;
I’m inclined to give the guy credit for admitting when he has been wrong in the past, and so weigh this post on it’s own merits.
If this is what the Israel government is thinking,they are dreaming in technicolor. There is no plausible scenario in which Obama would be ‘forced’ by public opinion to do something against the strategic interests of the United States. The goes for Gates and the Pentagon as well. We may have our differences with the Obama administration on a wide range of issues, but this is surely not one of them. The House is posturing. They all posture coming into an election. Part of the general hypocrisy that along with the filibuster that will never be removed while the Democrats are in power, but is sure to go once the Thugs get back in, characterizes our elected officialdom.
And here I thought we were talking about Israel. But for you Israel + campaign to pressure US into bombing Iran = Cambodia + Khmer Rouge. Who knew?
Anything to redirect the discussion. Can’t be saying anything bad about Israel around him, ya know.
Fuck Netanyahu and his fascist supporters. The money we spend on these war loving motherfuckers would create a lot of jobs here.
I’ve been looking, searching for something that would connect these two stories even on a tangent but I just can’t find anything in common with them other than the fact that they both take place or are taking place on the same planet. I can only surmise that it must be macaquerman trying to hijack the thread because someone had the temerity to be critical of Israel.
Bombing Iran would be a mistake. Getting involved in a land war would be a much bigger mistake. We are still stuck in Iraq almost eight years later with this huge insurgency going on. Yet Iran is three times as big, has over twice the population and unlike Iraq, has spent over twenty years rebuilding after the Iran Iraq war. We couldn’t win there without blanketing the area with nukes even without being already involved in two quagmires. Period.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/07/29/98337/obama-seeks-to-expand-arms-exports.html
Obama seeks to expand arms exports by trimming approval process
The Military/Industrial Complex: Too big to fail™.
Obama is great, every day he provides a new reason to run him out of office.
Bush was getting stale there, after a while he had to re-use old dirty stinking tricks.
With Obama its like a brand new hell every day.
“Critics say decontrolling weapons systems could fuel regional arms races, allow technology to fall into the wrong hands and, because arms purchasers often want to set up their own industries, end up exporting jobs abroad.”
Proponents say it will create more JOBS and EXPORTS! And of course the right sort of people will make shitloads of money on top of that! Wins all around
Maybe they will export the jobs, then use thet weapons to defend their new middle class life… by taking away the middle class in the USA.
I have to agree. Now they want to read more of our e-mails. I think we should forward all of our e-mails to the WH. Would surely give me a good laugh to just tie up their system.
Shoot the messenger, quickly.
“I’m not an Israeli … and not liking it, vowed never to set foot in it. I don’t believe in states that have an official religion or governance based on same.”
Macaquerman on CTuttle’s “The War Drums Beat Louder”, 7/25?10, comment #72
Hmm, macaquer, are you being unfairly maligned or is that not what you really think and/or “believe”.
Curiosity is.
DW
The need now is to manufacture enemies to keep pace with the weapons we’re churning out.
Wasn’t there supposed to be a theory that democracies are good because they don’t start wars? Wonder what happened to that.
Michael Whitney has a fresh cross-post available: Senate Votes to Double Fines, Jail Time for Pot Brownies
Israel does use that money to buy our weapons.
creating jobs.
it then uses those weapons to kill arabs. creating a need for more people to buy our weapons.
creating even more jobs…
/s
The theory still holds. The American experiment with democracy has fizzled.
The American military is not keen on either an American or Israeli military strike against Iran. Such an action would spark an uprising among the pro-Iranian Shiities of Iraq which could result in complete withdrawal of U.S. forces from the region under conditions of military defeat. The Americans and their Israeli gendarme are playing a dangerous game of saber rattling.
damn, someone already used the jobs meme.
my bad.
Israel, land of God’s chosen people or so they claim.
God told them to take the land so long ago we don’t know who else heard what God said but we can be sure no one is alive today that heard God way back then.
When I hear something everyone else can hear the sounds or it’s in my head.
So now they get to strut around with this superiorority complex, because the US government, in at least two and possibly three branches of our government….. the duel citizens, like this rahm guy get to call the shots. Name the other countries that allow people with duel loyalties to serve in the highest levels of government.
We’re in deep shit tied to these crazies
F*cking Israel makes me so friggin mad and makes me want to puke.
The proper response to an Israeli war crime (unprovoked attack on Iran) is to censure Israel, cut off ALL aid to Israel, and support trials at the Hague against Israeli political and military leaders.
The proper response to a follow-on mining of the Straight of Hormuz is to carefully navigate through and eliminate mines in a corridor to allow shipping to continue – it does NOT mean attacking Iran. A proper response to an Iranian fully justified retaliation against Israeli aggressors is to sit back and do nothing at all to interfere. International law recognizes the absolute right of a nation to RESPOND to an attack, which in this case means Iran has absolute rights to retaliate against an Israeli aggression.
Poorly armed maybe.
the answer to Iran seems to be to sit and wait.
The Iranian people seem to be on the way to disposing the mullahs all by themselves.
Israel has nukes on subs all over the gulf. Even if Iran gets nukes, it doesn’t mean they will attack Israel at all as they know it will cost them dearly.
What nukes for Iran means is that they will have a deterent against us invading them.
The United States government is continuously engaged in crimes against humanity. The two outstanding examples in my lifetime have been the wars of aggression in South East Asia and in the Middle East. These mass murders were committed on behalf of rich people and intended to make them richer. Everyone everywhere, although they may themselves be criminals, is justified in their resistance to American Imperial aggression. When you hear talk of freedom and democracy it is all lies. When you hear talk of “American interests abroad” it is not your interest being spoken of. American interest = interest of the billionaire class. No combination of Democrats and Republicans will ever change America’s murderous and shameful foreign policy. They never have and they never will.
There ain’t shit you can do really. But you could AT LEAST boycott the legacy parties.
I see we have our own pet Breitbart in Macaquerman, purposefully using selective quotes to discredit anyone who dares to challenge the Israeli narrative – and of course, successfully making the story about himself, not the real issue.
Porter is an author of the greatest integrity and his analysis – along with recent posts by Col Pat Lang for one – make me very worried about the potential for an attack on Iran. While previously the US mil seemed hesistant, I think we’re moving past that stage to a desire to blame defeat in Iraq and Afghanistan on Iran as well as a crazed belief that an air strike will be somehow successful and not engage us further.
Siun, can someone please send a delegation to Tel Aviv in an attempt to introduce some civility to this situation? Led by Jimmy Carter perhaps?
Given recent behavior, they would not allow them into the country.
Whoever is in charge of the FDL Twitter account, Thanks!
I found your comments rather interesting. And please understand that for me the concept of the ‘Chosen People’ is rather hollow at best, and at worst a sad joke. But here is the question: Based solely on your conclusions about the revealed word of God as witnessed by the Jewish Bible is it your position/opinion that the Christian Bible and the Qur’an reveal without scribal errors, and intentional human, self-serving interpretations, deletions, and additions the incontrovertible word of God? And again, my comments are not intended to offend or support any position of fatih or religious affiliation. Just a reflection on your comments.
Tragic Manicheanism
Treasonous psychos. Someone should tell Gerecht that wishing for an Israeli attack against the wishes of the US with the hope of dragging in the US is TREASON. Really from here on out, treason has to be a part of any discussion about having Israel strke Iran. We approach these matters from an AMERICAN point of view and approaching it from some other point of view is TREASON pure an simple.
You’re whistling past the graveyard.
Obama is certainly willing to jawbone Iran, and to sabre-rattle by sending some more hardware into the Persian Gulf, but I think he understands that if one JDAM or bomb from either Israel or the U.S. goes into Iran, then life as we know it is going to take a rather pronounced change for the worse.
And, I don’t think that Israel will attack Iran without the U.S. Government signing off on it.
Having said that, I should admit that I was skeptical that even George Bush was lunatic enough to invade Iraq, and I was wrong about that…so, given that Barack Obama is sustaining some of Bush’s worst policies, it’s well that Porter, and anyone else, regularly warns about Israel’s lust for a mideast war involving us.
and that brings us to a “withdrawal” from Iraq. I don’t think that’s going to happen. If it does, the inherent jump in value of Iran’s stock in the mideast won’t be possible to prohibit. And that is something that Israel (and Saudi Arabia, just to throw them into the mix…) do not want to see happen.
Of course, Obama’s NOT making substantial withdrawals in Iraq, to the
point that the pentagon can’t prop up and protect whatever sockpuppet government floats to the surface, is going have a political cost with american voters who are tired to their marrow of bullshit, blood, and treasure regarding the two quagmires. I think Obama had a shot at getting us out of, at least, Iraq, right after he came in, but now, with the factions obviously stalling and waiting for the pressure to mount on him, he’s trapped. That voter enthusiasm for supporting him is rapidly evaporating, and the mid-terms will probably see what’s left of it, disappearing.
My 2C: it couldn’t happen to a nicer centrist bi-partisan.
(Lily Tomlin had it right, years ago, when she said:
“No matter how cynical you get, you can’t keep up.”)
Had to look it up:
Manichaeism, Manicheism, Manicheanism
1. the doctrines and practices of the dualistic religious system of Manes, a blending of Gnostic Christianity, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and other elements, especially doctrines of a cosmic conflict between forces of light and darkness, the darkness and evilness of matter, and the necessity for a sexual, vegetarian asceticism.
2. any similar dualistic system, considered heretical by orthodox Christian standards. Cf. Gnosticism. — Manichean, n., adj. — Manicheistic, adj.
See also: Heresy
wtf?
Consider, doremus35, if you are an American, then you are among the “exceptional” and most-decidedly “chosen”, already. Consider, the motto on our coinage, “In God We Trust”, which speaks not only to “our” attitude toward money, through the wonder of the “Market”, but of our “place” in the world. Rather similar to the “old” German motto, “Gott Mitt Uns”. Said market, BTW, is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. If that is not enough, consider that this market is kept quite perfect by the “unseen hand” … of, (full hush and great expectancy) God. Why we even used the Bible to justify slavery. Remarkable what can be done with the advertised “words” of … somebody … not one imagines, God, but, well someone who had a rather high opinion of themselves – maybe, lots of someones?
By “the” books?
They are ALL precisely the same.
What are they worth?
What do you think?
DW
Siun, good to hear your voice. Always enjoy your threads.
No slack for the warbots. :o)
As I commented elsewhere:
[It's] all about US control of mideast oil reserves with Israel as the hired thug to protect the oil industry’s investments in the region. Exxon et al make lots of money and Israel gets to kill Arabs and Persians.
RedX; I believe you’re onto it. :o)
The Turks are steadily moving off the reservation, regarding Israel/America. If I were they, I would be, too.
Well, Netanyahu was talking with some bluster re the ease of Israel moving the U.S., but there is a real danger they will succeed on the Iran issue. Thanks for the essay. The American population must be heard now that they want no further military actions, in fact, they want withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. DoD itself knows it’s way over-extended. For the Obama administration to be drawn into such a war poses real risks for the rule of the elites, and they know this. But that may not be enough, given the drive by some within those same elites for the destruction of Iran, and America uber alles.
One piece of blowback if Israel and/or we, attack Iran:
It will guarantee that the only possible “solution” (and I use the word VERY loosely…) for Iraq, will be partition. And that will bring it’s own can of worms along with it.
(If we do leave, I think it’s going to happen, just from centrifugal force.)
As long as we’ve got people in high level positions in govt that support the goals of PNAC as set forth in Rebuilding America’s Defenses we’re going to be involved in conflict in the Middle East until there’s no more oil to fight over.
The only thing preventing an open civil war in Irak and Afghanistan is US/NATO troops. In Irak a permanent presence of US military forces is simply to prop up whatever puppet the US manages to install, Maliki being the current choice.
Here we are, trying to deal with the possibility that Barack Obama just might be crazy enough to slip the leash on Israel and join in, himself.
Didn’t we just spend a few years doing the same goddamn thing, with Bush and the republicans in power?
And somehow, we’re morally obligated to continue to support this feckless asshole?
That Porter is an author possessing a level of integrity that you admire is not surprising.
The USA is the greatest ever, all over the world. Sure, there some rioting in Kabul but those people secretly love us. They want to copy us and conquer the world.
Those words were from 2001. Given all that’s happened since, you really think it was just “bluster”?
What risks are those?
Dragon, I think you’ve got it right, except for that about Maliki being our choice. The powers that be in the U.S. (that marginally includes Barack Obama…) want Allawi in as P.M. He’s nominally a Shiite, but one who is much more acceptable to the Sunni minority, than is anyone else. You may not know that he has a stint at working for the CIA on his resume’.
He is also very anti-Iran, and as such, the U.S. and Israel could count on him to do all he could to keep the Shiites quiet in the event we attacked Iran. I don’t think he could succeed at that, but at the least, Obama and Netanyahu would have someone as PM there who shared their interest in hammering on Iran, any way they can.
The problem, of course, is Al Sadr. If, following an attack on Iran, he calls his militia back into the streets, all the bets are off. Plus, the restraint that Iran has shown in not providing Shiite militants with anything but low-tech help in going after our troops and the Sunnis, will very likely be a thing of the past. Iran has had access to Stinger missiles for at least 25 years, and they certainly have some Russian upgrades of them, as well as whatever they’ve come up with, themselves.
The short of it: If we go after Iran, the price of playing occupation poker in Iraq is going to go through the roof.
I think they would have tried to get Allawi elected the last time around except for al Sadr. The US military certainly knows but will never admit that it was al Sadr pulling his fighters off the streets that calmed things down, not the overhyped “surge.” If and when al Sadr decides to take to the streets it’s over for Maliki and his ilk.
Were the men who spread false rumors in the press of WMD and mobile weapons labs ever held in any way accountable for the Iraq War? Nope. So they target Iran… rinse and repeat.
I won’t buy that war with Iran is in any way justified. And neither will the US public. There’s already an ongoing backlash against the neocons in this country.
I don’t know how “GOD” lets the followers of religions interpret their teachings so I can’t honestly answer.
I do know my God is for peace and justice and looking at how these two “exceptional countries following God” get to blow away so many human beings I’m at a loss as to what kind of God would dig all the murdering.
Allow me, Brendan:
Huge jump in the price of oil…with all that implies for an american economy still wheezing along like a wheelchair patient.
An exponential jump in the hostility of Iraqi Shiites against our presence there and against anyone who is supporting our presence there. (see above thread) I think it will also have repercussions in Afghanistan, despite the Shiites being in a decided minority there.
A worldwide increase in anger at us, for reprising George Bush’s savage idiocy. Bottom line: American corporate interests will have a much bigger bullseye tatted on their asses, if we arbitrarily go after Iran.
An unknown response from China, but whatever form it may take, I’m pretty sure they don’t want us fucking with their new energy partner.
(I think there’s a chance that if we get into one more war, they might take advantage of it to move on Taiwan…it’s not a given, but I will guarantee you that the pentagon warbots are factoring in that possibility in their contingency planning for the results of an attack on Iran.)
I can’t think of much of anything, short of U.S. Marines having a poon party in some great mosque that would more likely increase the odds of some horrific attacks on us.
I guess you think that with all of this, somehow our “elite” will be exempt from any fallout or blame for the fallout, and will just sit back and take advantage of the chaos. If that’s what you believe, wadr, I think you’re very mistaken.
Here’a something of Porter’s being trumpeted on firedoglake by someone
http://firedoglake.com/2009/02/10/general-petraeus-springs-a-leak/
And, quite fittingly, it ends with a echo of good old Uncle Joe, and calls for a purge.
One simple fact:
JDAM’s and “smart bombs” do not effect regime change. That will take boots on the ground, and lots of them in a country that is much larger than Iraq, with nearly three times the population.
Bombing Iran is insane. Trying to occupy the country to try to set up yet another Fortune-500 approved government would be like a death wish for us.
What’s disheartening about all of this kneejerk jingoism, is that we’re looking squarely at what trying to do this in two other countries has done to us, and some people in power are STILL talking about it.
William “The Bloody” Kristol gets a woody just thinking about it.
You’re right — that’s exactly what my question was.
In the mid-90′s you could have enumerated a similar list of grave consequences of invading Iraq without provocation, like lunatics. Yet we did. And we suffered grave consequences, such as the collapse of our economy into near depression. And the elites have been immune from those consequences.
Israel is like the snotty little creep we all knew in school who ran around disturbing the shit, but if ever called on it would threaten you with an asskicking by his big brother.
We’re not going to try to occupy Iran, at least not this decade. The project is the same as the first decade of our war against Iraq: destroy its infrastructure and besiege its population. It’s a lot of bad things, but not insane.
Your original comment made me think of this.
Tragic Manicheanism. The metaphysical battle between good and evil has many engaged spectators, some of whom are so chronically assured of evil’s triumph that they appear to subconsciously root for it. This is the religious concept of original sin in political grammar. The tragic Manichean believes that everything one’s own government or society does is bad and that all those who oppose it are axiomatically good.
Can someone please tell J-Street about this — because all I see them doing is enabling the warmongers and empire builders and definitely not trying to stop them.
Methinks J-Street is AIPAC in shorts and t-shirts rather than silk suits and Gucci shoes.
Not good logic, Brendan.
When Bush invaded Iraq, our economy was still relatively strong.
He still had some political clout left, by way of 9-11, and the fact that the bloom wasn’t off the Afghanistan rose.
The world was still more or less behind us, in going after “terrists”.
The coalition for going into Iraq, was optimistic, if not totally enthusiastic.
Now, the voters are looking straight in the eye of what the results of Bush’s insanity, and Obama’s sustaining of that insanity, are, and it aint pretty. (I would point out that the stock market, the jewel in the crown for the “elite”, is eating it’s shorts one day, crawling up a bit the next, and then eating them again, two days later.)
Far from starting yet another shitmire, most of the rest of the world wants us out of the ones we’re still in.
40% or more of the world’s seaborn oil passes through the Straits of Hormuz. The Straits are 29 nautical miles wide. An average of 15 tankers, carrying 16-17 million barrels of crude oil, pass though the Straits every day. If our military has to protect those ships, or, even more difficult, just keep Iran from dumping many, many, high-tech mines in that little chokepoint, they will need to be possessed of a degree of luck that only an idiot would count on.
Evening news Video of one tanker on fire in there, and within 72 hours, the pump price of a gallon of gas will break all records. If you think that that won’t have repercussions on the “elite”, then I have a third war to sell you. :o)
Saddam had nothing that he could threaten that was the equivalent of this. Likewise, the effects of a Chinese reaction to an attack on Iran (which you didn’t respond to) on the american economy could be huge.
(GM now sells more cars in China than it does in America.)
The simple truth is, that attacking Iran would be a crapshoot that would make invading Iraq look like a game of tiddly-winks. The downside of doing it is literally unlimited, and the “elite” that you think are sanguine about that, know it perfectly well.
There is this possibility:
Obama really DOES continue the drawdown in Iraq, which is inevitably going to empower the Iraqi Shiites directly, and Iran, indirectly…and Israel just decides that it’s now-or-never, for dragging us into a mideast war, and pulls the trigger, itself. Also, they’ve still got the logistical problem of how to get there. If, as has been rumored/speculated, the Saudis would give them an air corridor, you can bet the Iranians will find that out, and when this was being talked about, I’m sure their ambassador to Riyadh quietly pointed out how much in range of Iranian missiles, were Saudi cities.
Brendan, do you think that our “elites” are unconcerned with the happiness and well-being of the House of Saud? Please, tell me you don’t think that. :o)
Like I said: unlimited downside to going after Iran. And the fatcat and their twisted, selfish, worldview, cannot escape it. And they know it.
Brendan, I’m not the one talking about “regime change”, that’s coming from some of the people who Porter is talking about…the ones trying to gin up the pressure on Obama.
Considering his appointments, including the one running the State Department with “Property of AIPAC” tatted on her butt, it’s a good bet that the phrase is being used in the White House, itself.
“It’s a lot of bad things, but not insane.”
Well, well, we’re getting down to the bottom of the “It’s doable” barrel, now it seems. Are you sure you’re on the right blogsite?
Fully agreed!
*G*
Why are you spoiling a great read by one of the world’s best analysts and writers on the subject at hand?
Have you no shame when it comes to your keyboard?
If you want attention, write your OWN Cambodian diary instead of stepping all over someone as respected and distinguished as Mr. Porter.
Harumhp.
Yes to everything you wrote.
Siun I am SOOOOO glad to see one of FDL’s Finest break out and call the sitch for what it is.
Thank you SO much, his endless hijacking of threads and posting diaries of little consequence has spun so widely inept that even scrolling past often is difficult . . .
Bless you, Ma’am.
Agreed in full!
There is NO way USA is going to attack Iran, and I hope without our support, Israel won’t either.
Because once that dog lets slip, we are talking about world wide war skirmishes and then there’s China and Russia to consider whom have prospective ‘business’ with Iran that will NOT be compromised by USA OR Israel.
And of course, there’s also India, Germany, France and a few other nations that have ‘business’ in the ME and East Asia WRT resources development, pipeline development, and more.
Barring a black ops authored by Xtian members of the military, rogue elements of the CIA, orchestrated by neocons and AIPAC attacking Iran ain’t gonna happen.
Believe me, we’re on the same side. I just have a quibble — I think you’re understating the “doability” of this from the point of view of the people running this militaristic oligarchy.
And as for mentions of “regime change”, yes, I too, find that chilling: the point I made in my last comment was that a policy of “regime change”, i.e. a policy of destroying infrastructure and besieging the population, was the necessary precursor to the invasion of Iraq.
Always good to see your fonts of reason here, my good friend, Tan . . . . *G*
Disregard the email I sent about this great read by Mr. Porter!!!
You get up earlier back there than I do out here!!!!
lol
Ya know, there’s also the Turks, aside from Russia, China, India.
Thanks for reminding me of what Gilley used to espouse on a regular basis.
*G*
Yeah, partition of Iraq is inevitable, regardless of Israel/Iran.
And we CAN’T stay, it’s unsustainable as is Af/Pak.
It’s just a matter of time before we HAVE to get out.
The domestic issues will override ANY neocon/corporate/fascist influence and agenda at some point.
It’s just a matter of time before the whole system collapses and we the people simply don’t put up with it.
We are some what, 300 Hundred Million anymore in the USA? Enough of them get poor and downtrodden and the inevitable has to happen.
It’s just a matter of time.
Rome and USSR serve as examples.
Good lord dawg, those blowbacks from doing Iran have been published at AW Dot Com for years now, and here at FDL.
You don’t have to ask, you should know.
It’s Entry Level understanding.
And that’s just the BEGINNING of the carnage that will be waged.
*G*
Yep, I’m fully in accord with you and Tan about it all.
ONE sunken ship (forget about mining the Straits) in the Hormuz Straits clogs it.
Period.
And Iran can sink MORE than a few vessels regardless of how hard Israel, USA or anyone else hits them.
Kills oil worldwide, kills corporate profits, kills stock markets worldwide.,
And as you say, doing Iran unleashes a world wide network of attacks on all corporate investments.
That he had to ask is in of itself indicative he’s either grossly under or mis informed, or poking a stick into the cage.
;-)
Their collapse is inevitable, their influence and power is unsustainable.
Your analogy with Iraq fails because Iran is a completely whole new ballgame, and unrelated to Iraq in the manner in which you try to allude.
IMHO bless yer heart.
Yep, and they STILL can’t pull the military and JOC on board with doing Iran.
*G*
Mr. Porter, in case you check back into this thread . . .
Thank you for all you have written and shared over the years.
I’ve been an avid reader of your thoughts at AW Dot Com since the early 2000′s.
Bless you for your work and thanks once again for a GREAT read up above.
Yours is one of the most essential voices we have on the planet.
Rcc’d, of course.
*bows*
bow to this, if you will
Cambodia: Starvation and Revolution
by George C. Hildebrand, by Gareth Porter
Monthly Review Press, 124 pp., $3.25 (paper)
No, it’s more than bluster. I agree with the diarist that the U.S. can be drawn into a war by Israeli pressure or own military action. But this is not the same as saying or thinking that Israel controls U.S. military action. Believe me, if they did, the attack would have already taken place.
I agree with Southern Dragon’s remarks re PNAC @60.
As to what the U.S. power elite stands to lose is their very power, their rule, via the destabilization of the country through an economically devastating war. While on one hand they really believe they are omnipotent, there rests within them an uneasy recognition, even within the living memory of a few, or who remember how haunted their parents were by it, in regards to losing power and seeing their class rule destroyed. It happened in Russia, it happened in China. It happened in Indochina. They may whistle through the dark that Marxism is dead, communism is dead, etc., but they know all too well that these are just names. Under it is the reality that if pressed too hard, large groups of people will do some very radical things. Sometimes it’s radically to the right, sometimes it’s radically to the left.
The world never comes out the way you thought after a large-scale war. War with Iran would totally bankrupt the U.S., throw Europe into turmoil, and threaten anything they wish to accomplish in the Middle East.
Some of the rulers remember Stalingrad.
Brendan, thanks for the reply, and for your posts.
I just feel that going after Iran in any way that uses force IS insane, for all the reasons I listed, and I think that most americans know that, and will view it as, not doubling down, but tripling down on the other miseries.
I also think that enough people are already tired of Obama’s being Bush-lite, and of the unwritten democratic campaign slogan:
“Vote for us! We’re not as bad as the republicans!”
that we are going to get our butts shellacked in November. At this point, I don’t see anything else happening.
There is only one solution, and that solution IS NOT WAR either to satisfy the warmongers in Washington or TelAviv.
That solution is A NUCLEAR WEAPONS FREE MIDDLE EAST that includes all states in the region, specifically ISRAEL and IRAN.
Let the arms manufacturers gain their profits elsewhere.
The Iran War – How It Will Begin
http://www.rense.com/general83/irwar.htm
I used to think that the fact that an attack on Iran would send oil prices into the stratosphere and provoke a worldwide depression would be a sufficient reason to quash any such attack, either by us or our proxy Israel. But the blank greed and stupidity of our elites can not be overestimated.
He said he was wrong a very long time ago, and hasn’t changed his analysis back to the erroneous one. Can you not accept that, even though you have never made any mistakes?
BTW, The Antarctica Daily today published an op-ed that urgently requires a stern, holier-than-thou rebuttal from you. Take your time on it. It’s important.
Speaking of the idiot power elite, can you guess who said this,
red, it wasn’t the only such mistake. sure, I could overlook one tiny genocide denial and some 1.5 million murdered people.
but his denial of the Hue massacre ranks right up there in the realm of “not good.”
http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/porterhue1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Huế
If Porter’s mistakes weren’t central to his occupation and if he had recognized that he hadn’t merely been wrong, but had disgraced himself, and had he done the honorable thing and shaved his head, shut his mouth and set himself to performing some quiet, selfless service I would indeed think better of him.
You know people will call upon you to do the same thing to atone for your own mistakes here, right? Like not at first believing that U.S. troops were digging bullets out of pregnant women to cover up their murders?
I, for one, don’t give a rat’s ass what you think of him. Your attempt to redirect the discussion to Porter rather than the subject of the post is SOP for you.
I’m not passing myself as a professional, red.
Siun at #43 and Larue at #87…great comments…now returning to…ROFLMAO!
“Yep, and they still can’t pull the military and the JCS on board.”
Well, when the OTHER neocons were pressing hard to “do” Iran, Mullen, then the head of CentCom, said:
“Some of us are trying to put the crazies back in their box.”
Now that Mullen has presumably found out that the crazies are still around, and some of them are even in office…will he say anything?
you are entirely welcome in retaining that little thing rather than giving it away.
That, SD, would be a BINGO!
al Sadr is the only leader who has the moral authority and necessary respect, generally, in that sad nation to be able to make a genuine difference. Our puppets, all of them, can only dance so long as we pull their strings and string the Iraki people along, doing the American people no good in the ludicrous “bargain”.
DW
That’s lame.
Say what you will about macaquer, his presence on controversial threads guarantees a strong turn-out. #30 remains unanswered, however, one notes.
DW
Also at that link the text gives the context for Porter’s mistake about the Pol Pot regime, which of course mm selectively ignores. The context was repeated attempts by Nixon administration supporters to concoct evidence there would be a bloodbath in South Vietnam if the US withdrew. Repeatedly Porter refuted reports on past and possible future mass killings by the North Vietnamese government and Communist interests. Having seen all of these bogus claims being made, he mistakenly assumed early reports of mass killings by the Pol Pot regime were likewise just pro-war propaganda. When more evidence came in he realized his error and made a clean breast of it, writing many articles thereafter detailing the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge regime. In recent years he has been an honorable and strong progressive voice.
and please stop bringing it up, DW.
might be because my original reply was deleted.
you’re wrong in saying that I wish not to have the topic discussed. it has been and will be discussed at great length, here and elsewhere and I wouldn’t have the discussion abbreviated.
so perhaps you’ll allow me some small space to mention what it is that I wish to mention.
He’s trying to attack the messenger, Gareth Porter, and through him his message.
nope. I’m hell-bent on attacking the messenger but that doesn’t affect the message.
We could go back and forth on that for quite a while but I’m not gonna. Used up enough of other reader’s time on it as it is.
My hope is that the Pentagon will dig in their heels as they did when Bush/Cheney last raised this spectre. Their reasons then were that US forces were dangerously overstretched; if anything they are more so now.
Would that not be contrary to all that you claim to stand for?
Contrary-wise.
As you know, macaquer, the truth of your own words cannot offend thee, unless they are not true or the acknowledgement will lessen your mystique.
What shall it be?
DW
I would prefer to let those that wish to think different continue, rather than deprive them of that extree bit of emotion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQouJdvB80U
Ah, yes, the mystique.
I see.
DW
And thanks for Ella’s “MISTY”, my nine- soon to be ten-year-old daughter loved it, macaquer.
DW
that’s about the loveliest thing I’ve heard today, DW.
Bless you both and any and all others in your household…… and I’m well pleased that she liked it.
Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein banned
Aipac lite is just as dangerous
Porter and others don’t dispute that a large scale atrocity by Vietcong against South Vietnamese took place in Hue during the Tet Offensive. What is genuinely in dispute is the scale and nature of those atrocities. Did it involve 4000 or more deaths or a much lesser number? And was it the result of deliberate policy of the Vietcong or was it the result of panic and the chaos of war as after weeks of fierce fighting and heavy bombardment US forces recaptured the city from the Vietcong.
Porter took issue with the early report on the massacre by Douglas Pike, then working as a Foreign Service Officer for the U.S. Information Agency in 1970. Later investigations after the war supported the belief that many killings took place but did not definitively answer the above questions. With regard to Porter’s character, his involvement in the Hue massacre issue does not show him as wantonly and callously ignoring evidence of war crimes but as engaging in an energetic effort to find out what did happen. (Noam Chomsky agrees with Porter.)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF for a discussion of the issues.
> I’m not passing myself as a professional, red.
I really don’t think that’s relevant.
Wouldn’t a “talented amateur” be close enough? “Semi-talented”? How about someone who apparently simply wants to be listened to and believed?
[MODnote - please do not verbally abuse fellow commenters.]
Please explain how calling a hypothetical example a “talented amateur” is verbally abusive.
red, he was trained as an historian beside working as a pro reporter.
he still allows himself to be described as “an investigative journalist and an historian”
you can’t be those things and do what he did. everything that historians and reporters are taught to do is exactly the opposite.
let me leave it at that. you’re welcome to spend a few minutes reading
Cambodia: Starvation and Revolution
by George C. Hildebrand, by Gareth Porter
Monthly Review Press, 124 pp., $3.25 (paper)
and comparing that account with the reality.
When is someone going to start a “Vote Third Party in November” campaign, aimed at all voting blocks??????????????????
Macaquer, is your issue with Gareth that he is ‘pretending’ to be something he is not, or that he betrayed your trust, many years ago?
DW
Paid a brief visit to the “Reason Foundation”
http://reason.org/news/show/the-five-varieties-of-bad-poli
Happy to be in company with Howard Zinn.
Peace out alan.
“… a pseudo-romantic attachment to the absolute value of transparency…”
Michael Hayden is an apt pupil of the anti-democratic ideologists, would be more comfortable with a military dictatorship (as Bush once said he’d prefer) than a democracy with all its “pseudo-romanticism” and “neurotic” attachment to “self-importance” (boy, the pot calling the kettle black on that last one).
Guessing game, who said that?
Strangelove?
And a voice from the crowd as Cheney sat in his wheelchair?
My best guesses.
;~D
I really should have turned up the flame on this Failed Fascist Spymaster. These Spy thugs have made everything secret. Nothing is allowed to be revealed. It is secret because the truth is that this is just gun running, drug smuggling, and war profiteering. This is the self sustaining off the shelf secret army of Ollie North and Robert Gates.
I want to tell the asshole General Pig Hayden, you will need more than 800,000 goons to snuff me out.
No, let’s leave it at this:
1) He said he made a mistake. So far, he’s one better than you, and therefore more trustworthy than you on that basis alone.
2) You have every legal right to hold a spiteful and hateful grudge of an opinion and openmouthedly opine about it, and to even go for the world record bitchfest if you so choose. I have to tell you, though, it doesn’t put you in good company.
3) It is possible to currently be a trustworthy investigative reporter even though one has been wrong in the past. There is no doubt about that possibility, though you fume and stomp your little paws about it all day long.
4) Have a nice double banana daiquiri tonight and send me the bill — it’s on me.
You got it! Dr. Strangelove (Peter Sellers) shouts out the last words of the movie of eponymous fame.
Oh, and Frank33 (@139), it certainly will take more than a force of 800,000 to enforce an actual fascist regime in this country. To destroy what’s left of the Enlightenment here will take untold millions and a full generation, at least, despite the degenerated state of the nation and its “democracy.” That is the power of historical change and landmarks. It bums them out that they haven’t totally destroyed communism yet, and China figures far more in their calculations than, for instance, Iran. The attitudes and policies surrounding North Korea are all about China. Of course, these things aren’t generally discussed in the for-public media, which is all about domestic propaganda.
Your comment to Frank33, is the essence of truth, and, most especially, your first three sentences.
DW
Wonderful comment.
I’ll pay for the second daiquiri if one doesn’t do it for MM.
Jeff, always appreciate your posts, and your comments.
But an attack on Iran has more details than you mention. And your points are extremely valid!
*G*
The details I refer to, have been well described by me, Tan, Gareth Porter, Tom Englehardt, and the entire crew at AW Dot Com, for a decade or more!
*G*
Hoss, you’ve long been a fav commenter of mine, for a long long time.
I’ve been and remain, a great fan of your thoughts, as they always sync with mine.
I love your comment, but I insist, doing Iran just can’t be done.
And won’t be done.
Because to do so, will ruin the planet, and I and others have explained why.
Tell me yer not failin or wailin on this one.
*G*
Thanks and bless ya . . .
Hoss, I have to think there’s others on board besides Mullen, that don’t gots the crazies.
I’d go look for linky’s to this, but I don’t feel like it.
I think, them links are at AW Dot Com . . . for ever and a day!
*G*
Yep, thanks for your voice of sanity.
~~~There is plenty of topical conversation in this thread. Let’s focus on that, and set aside the disagreement with any particular commenter.~~~
You’re welcome and the same to you.
ISRAEL and the EU
http://www.buzztracker.com/story/a9a6ec828fec23dc440b0955/world