Suffice it to say, my ideas on marriage are complicated. Not, mind you, complicated as in ambiguous, just complicated as in complex. I could go on at length, though not so much because I want to—marriage is really (or should be) a personal matter—but because others always want to. I think that in a lifetime of political conversations, I have maybe had more of them about marriage than any other single subject.
But I don’t want to go on at length here. Really. Let’s just boil it all down to something like this: I am uncomfortable with the shoehorning of what I see as a personal and religious matter into our purportedly secular and civil society. Alas, “Civil Unions for all, marriage for none,” makes a better rallying cry than it does a point for considered conversation.
That said, however, I can quite simply say that in our civil society, if something is legal for one, it just has to be legal for all. The bottom line is, everyone is equal under the law.
At least that’s how I see it.
Not so, it seems, for Lanae Erickson and Jon Cowan, two Third Way muckety-mucks who recently penned a piece for the Baltimore Sun in which they argued that if LGBT Americans want to see marriage equality become a reality, they need to make it less about equality and more about embracing what the authors see as traditional values.
Moderates needed to hear that gay couples understand that marriage is essentially about vows, not rights. And they needed to see that gay couples would take the tradition seriously and cherish — rather than mock, even inadvertently — the institution of marriage.
“Moderates” is their term, obviously. Here is an example of a moderate, an example Erickson and Cowan choose as their signature synecdoche:
One research subject was particularly upset by a picture we showed of a lesbian couple getting married because the women were wearing jeans. He observed that he and his wife had taken six months to plan their wedding, and said: “To me, it looks like they called up the day before and said, ‘Hey, do you want to go get married?’” Those interviewed saw a wedding as a joyful but weighty occasion, freighted with solemn, lifelong vows.
“Joyful but weighty,” in Third Way World, is not, apparently, office casual.
But how did corporate America’s culture desk come to these conclusions? It seems Third Way did what any good company does, they did research. . . or at least that is what they call it:
At Third Way, for example, we went beyond traditional polling and conducted a series of innovative and intensive one-on-one interviews — akin to the sort of market research tool used by the Fortune 500. Those interviews proved revelatory and have profound implications for extending marriage to lesbian and gay couples.
Oh, man—as some of may or may not know, before my time at Firedoglake, I spent an eternity (OK, it just seemed like an eternity) as a strategic marketing and communications consultant, and, boy, have Lanae and Jon pushed my consultant hot buttons. Hell, Erickson and Cowan make Mark Penn look good.
First of all, one-on-one interviews aren’t “akin” to a “sort of” research tool used by companies, they are a research tool used by companies. And, they are far from “innovative”–interviews have been around as long as research, itself. What they are is expensive.
If you have a ton of dough, you do ethnographies (yeah, that’s what we called them). Send a researcher out to spend a day with someone, follow them, ask them annoying questions like, “What are you doing now?” and “Why did you do that?” Maybe, if you are really in-the-money, you have a videographer along and cut together some awesome corporate reality show from all your footage.
Next on the menu are the one-on-ones. In-person, in-depth interviews that last about two hours. Or, if you have a little less money, you do phone interviews. Either way, they are full and intense. I have done hundreds of them. They are exhausting.
Still too expensive? Well, then, how about focus groups? More bang for the consultant-hour buck. . . but obviously, less intensive, and with more chance of peer pressure screwing with your data.
But, and here is the real point, when you are done with any of these methodologies—all qualitative methodologies—you do not have recommendations, you do not have analysis, you barely have findings. What you have are a series of un-projectable anecdotes. You use those anecdotes to build hypotheses, and then you test those hypotheses in a randomized survey of “x”-hundred respondents–quantitative methodologies–then you present findings, then you do analysis, then you make strategic recommendations. . . and maybe, if you are feeling really brash, you make tactical recommendations.
What you never do is take a single data point–one interview–and project that as a finding. Taking one anecdote and making it a tactic–well, that’s what your idiot clients try to do. It is the guy behind the mirrored glass that says, “see, they like blue things, make the box blue!” It is the thing you work night and day to dissuade your clients from pursuing.
But maybe this is a third way of consulting. You know, neither proper or projectable—but still useful to a client with a predetermined strategy. That probably works fine, given their milieu, but if Erickson and Cowan actually had to make their money by selling their research–instead of being showered with walking-around money by corporate sugar daddies—this quality of work would relegate them to conducting Pepsi challenge taste tests at the local mall.
The fact of the matter—what projectable, quantitative analysis will tell you, time and again—is that marriage equality, to great extent, is a problem of demographics over psychographics. If you are over 50, you tend to oppose man-on-man or woman-on-woman marital action; if you are under 30, you mostly don’t see the problem. Opposition to marriage equality, like any lesbian’s blue jeans, will fade with time.
Even more importantly, however, is that even with proper measures by proper researchers, some things require real thinking. Third Way, being the good corporate mouthpiece that it is, is doing right by their clients. They are applying market methodologies to moral issues. That might be fine if they were simply trying to get more homophobes to drink Pepsi, but if you are building a political movement, you are not just pushing an impulse buy. A political movement, a political party—or, to put in terms Erickson and Cowan can better understand, your brand—does not stand for a tactic, it stands for a belief. It is a tie that binds, not just hetero men to women, it is a value that unites an entire tribe. Honoring some old bigot’s idea of what a wedding should look like is a tactic; honoring equal rights is a value.




42 Comments

I don’t suppose a hetero couple has ever had a wedding with one or the other wearing blue jeans.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.besmartbegreen.com/maegan-pep-wedding.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.lovemaegan.com/2009_02_01_archive.html&h=756&w=540&sz=313&tbnid=fnSl9YrbAbVR7M:&tbnh=142&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwedding%2Bin%2Bblue%2Bjeans%2Bphoto&zoom=1&q=wedding+in+blue+jeans+photo&usg=__Tg53YxnUqsjR0Mk3MkY96GoCrjo=&sa=X&ei=oHOOTZy-OMjKgQf29ayfDQ&ved=0CCMQ9QEwAw
When I was working and making a lot of presentations, I would tell the following joke from time to time if it fit the situation. It’s the physicist’s proof that 12 is evenly divisible by all integers less than 12: 1 goes into 12 evenly, 2 goes into 12 evenly, 3 goes into 12 evenly, 4 goes into 12 evenly. Let’s not get ridiculous. Then I would pause & say: Sometime for economists, it’s 1 goes into 12 evenly. Let’s not get ridiculous.
Marrriage is a contract issued by the state.
PERIOD!
“if something is legal for one, it just has to be legal for all.”
So, does that mean bigamy or polygamy should suddenly become legal too? No thanks. Stop making the Republicans look smart.
“Third Way” = Republicans who detest Teabaggers rather than embrace them. Full stop.
But polygamy isn’t legal for anybody in this country. Hate to break it to you but your analogy is analogous. Try again.
It’s happened, I’m sure. I suspect my brother was wearing blue jeans when he got married, but I wasn’t there so I can’t say for sure.
Great definition. Third Way appears to belong to Bloomberg.
Were you following the Prop8 liveblog? One of the DI’s arguments would make it legal: one man marries one woman, then he marries a different woman (still one-man-one-woman marriage), then he….
They didn’t seem to realize what they’d just argued, either.
People who want to be Republicans, but don’t want to associate with the fundies – in public, at least.
Anybody who drags up polygamy, bigamy, bestiality or pedophilia as a comparator to argue against marriage equality is just a thinly disguised homobigot in my opnion.
Precisely. When they say “third way” they mean Reagan Republicanism.
These are the kind of people that if you ask them “Do you believe in equality for all Americans?” they’ll answer “Yes.”
Then when you ask them “Do you think gay Americans should be free to marry?” they answer “No.”
And the reason they will give is that it’s a question of morality to them.
That’s just lip service to equality; they really don’t believe in it.
Personally, I believe that Marriage is simply a “Blessing” to have sex. There are consequences to having sex, children #1. But, people well past child bearing years get married so that it is not seen as cohabitation, including sex, without the “Blessing”.
That leaves homosexuals out in the cold, along with hetros that decide to ignore marriage and live together anyway. At this juncture of our cultural history, cohabitation is no big deal in many places in the US, but not all. “When are you going to get married”? is not heard much these days. For hetro couples, however, marriage neatly handles all the legal stuff.
It’s all in the Sixth Commandment (Adultery), and the three western religions take it seriously.
It would take repealing that one, which will take hundreds of years if at all.
So it comes down to one question: Is having sex sacred? Depart the sixth commandment and the answer is no, or at least, not sinful. Ergo, problem solved, we generate a gender blind mechanism to allow a couple to assume mutual responsibility for each other with a vow to publicly declare that intention.
In my opinion, FWIW.
Did you get what I sent you?
http://fdlbooksalon.com/2011/03/26/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-nathan-hodge/#comment-2203456
Sure they do! As long as they are the ones deciding who is more and who is less “equal”. Maybe some of them even believe they aren’t being bigoted or hypocritical. But I don’t.
I really enjoyed your breakdown of market research, Gregg. Thank you for sharing that.
Thank you ma’am! *sippin’*
In Prop H8 trial, DIs argued that the purpose of marriage was to have a family. Plaintiffs pointed out, if that were so, infertile couples, older couples, etc., should not be allowed to get married.
It’s absurd that the gov’t gets to decide who can get married. Who cares? If 2 people want to share their lives, it’s a good thing. Not the business of the gov’t.
BTW, Gregg, a woman at Columbia Ed school was actually awarded a PhD for a thesis wherein she interviewed 6 (or maybe 8) families with mothers working at relatively high power jobs to figure out how they coped. Mine was one. The interviews lasted maybe a couple of hours.
I thought what a piece of crap.
1. What did the subject have to do with the field of education anyhow.
2. The sample was ridiculously small.
3. The interviews were ludicrously short & superficial
4. The conclusion can be stated in just a few words: ability to compartmentalize.
But not only did Columbia grant the PhD, she also got it published as a book.
http://www.amazon.com/Managing-Success-Aasta-S-Lubin/dp/0231061420/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1301184339&sr=1-1
Once again, the discourse has run away with the issue.
Check the Constitution – As an example, the 14th (where I believe the heart of the argument is centered), section 1:
I fail to find where the 14th distinguishes one ‘American’ from another. That distinction is politically imposed, effectively merging the civil institution of marriage with the religious one (a no-no).
Recall all of the debates about this during the DOMA days – that proponents of letting anyone marry who ever they wanted were criticized for creating a ‘special class’ by the opponents, when it was the opponents who created the separate class and singled them out for exclusion.
It’s about property/inheritance/etc rights, and the govt has been involved in those issues forever.
The 14th amendment doesn’t distinguish one American from another. That’s why these ridiculous birthright revocation laws are so amoral and evil. I’m tired of being called un-American by those who actually are.
Hail Twain.
Well, the gov’t (in this discussion we’re referring to the collective democratic will of the people, which is absurd on its face but we’re working with abstractions here) has an interest insofar as tax and other incentives for encouraging family or other social engineering ventures. (I don’t want to debate social engineering here at all.)
So, I think it’s important to allow for “civil” unions – equality for all just for the simple motive of an elevated respect for law itself.
The concept of “marriage” – a religious one – could very easily be left to the churches. Churches and folks could decide with each other whether they want their civil unions to be further “blessed.”
My two cents…
Petro!
Something like 95% of CUs in France are contracted by heterosexual couples.
Why shouldn’t consenting adults be able to enter into unions with whom they wish? Polygamy and bigamy is not remotely similar to bestiality and pedophilia (the latter two not being between consenting adults)…which you brought in out of nowhere.
spanishinquisition March 26th, 2011 at 4:25 pm
Either you replied to the wrong person or you need to read through the comments again. I didn’t bring them up. technos did. I was calling it out.
Hi! I certainly know who you are (*g*) – I just hope I’m not being mistaken for Petrocelli.
It’s happened before. ;)
But it’s nice to get a hello from a venerable ‘pup like yourself.
I did read your comment where out of nowhere it sounded like you put polygamy in the same boat as pedophilia. Your comment rang distinctly of only being for selective marriage equality…or did I misunderstand and you support bigamy and polygamy?
I put them there because homobigots do genius! I, personally have been compared to a pedophile. I put it there because all of those examples have been used to argue against marriage equality. Do you really want to go down this road with me? Want me to tell you what those two jocks were screaming at me as they were kicking in my ribs and my face?
Marriage is entirely a state function.
They can be perfomred by Priests, ministers, rabbis et. al. But said religious funtionaries do not own it. Marriages performed by Justices of the Peace or duly empowered Elivis impersonators in Las Vegas are just as valid as those performed in a church or synagogue.
But the lying creeps who insist we all worship their Big Invisible Bi-Polar Daddy Who Lives in The Sky. have bamboozled almost everyone into believing that mariage belongs to them.
IT DOESN’T!
ARGH. I did just that. Sorry. Hi, Petro, forgive me?
“I put them there because homobigots do genius”
So why would you want to act like a bigot? You’re giving a good reason to NOT DO what you did and are showing why I raised the issue in the first place.
“I put it there because all of those examples have been used to argue against marriage equality”
If you are for more than just selective marriage equality and believe that all consenting adults should be free to enter into unions, you shouldn’t be comparing consenting adults to people having sex with babies.
“Do you really want to go down this road with me? Want me to tell you what those two jocks were screaming at me as they were kicking in my ribs and my face?”
Yes, I do. Your personal experience having been called a pedophile should make you be all the more careful about calling other consenting adults pedophiles rather than serving as a justification to do so.
I’m self moderating but oh it’s hard. Do not address me again. Ever. I don’t have to put up with this shit from anybody.
FDL does not allow sockpuppets (although a few creep in) but there is a reasonable amount of handle-changing. “Mason” is now “Masoninblue” and “KellyCDenver” became “Kelly Canfield” (real name) awhile ago. I just saw “Knox” posting on another thread and wondered if “Knoxville” has changed his handle.
Me, I’m still “msmolly” because I couldn’t think of anything else creative!
@msmolly:
Totally forgiven. ;)
~~~ModNote: There is an awful lot of ‘talking past each other’ in this thread, in the opinion of this detached observer. Cool heads, people, please. I am sure there was no offense intended.~~~
By all means I welcome TheLurkingMod’s input. I was concerned about what sounded like equating the actions of consenting adults to that of pedophiles, so that raised red flags with me, but I’ll stay off the thread.
Two drunken strangers can get married by an Elvis impersonator at 4am in Las Vegas, and as long as they are opposite genders, they can get all the rights and privileges associated with civil marriage.
Then they can get their ‘mistake’ annulled, and get married to someone else as soon as the paperwork goes through.
Then get divorced and married again. And again and again.
Tell me again how ANY of this shit is about vows or sacredness? I just want the government to recognize the fact I’ve been married to my wife for the last 12 years.
I think if you research it further you will find that the concept of civil marriage predates that of religious marriage. So, the concept of marriage is not a “religious” one. It has been usurped by religion. But, just because they did that doesn’t mean we have to allow them to get away with it.