UPDATE: Dorner’s body has been positively identified. Sources also acknowledge that highly flammable “hot gas” canisters were used, which caused the cabin to catch fire. So it was the canisters, not the cops, that set the fire. They’re still saying that the fire was not set deliberately, although I don’t know how they are able to determine the intention of each of the individual canisters. Perhaps they were acting in unison, or perhaps there was a rogue canister who chose to set the fire.
San Bernardino County sheriff’s officials have positively identified the charred remains found in a mountain cabin Tuesday as being the body of Christopher Dorner.
Officials said they made the identification using dental records during the autopsy.
snip
SWAT officers in the cabin standoff decided to use highly flammable “hot gas” canisters as a last resort after other efforts to persuade Dorner to surrender failed, according to law enforcement sources.
Officers made the decision to use the canisters, which caused the cabin to catch fire, as the sun was setting Tuesday and authorities worried about dealing with Dorner at night in the remote Big Bear area, said the sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the investigation was ongoing. Dorner had continued to fire on officers, and they feared more deputies would be hurt or killed, they added.
As has been discussed fairly extensively in two different diaries about fugitive Christopher Dorner here at FDL, many people are questioning whether the San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department set fire to a cabin intentionally and/or allowed it to burn to the ground with a man presumed to be Dorner—but as of yet unidentified—inside.
In spite of scanner audio that seems to make the opposite case, police insist they did not set the fire intentionally and they have not acknowledged that the fire was caused by the “burners” that they shot into the cabin. Their story is as follows:
A short time later, police caught up with the man they believe was Dorner, surrounding a cabin where he’d taken refuge after crashing Heltebrake’s truck in the San Bernardino Mountains 80 miles east of Los Angeles.
A gunfight ensued in which one sheriff’s deputy was killed and another wounded. After the firefight ended, a SWAT team using an armored vehicle broke out the cabin’s windows and began knocking down walls. A fire started, and later, charred remains believed to be Dorner’s were found.
San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon said Wednesday the fire was not set on purpose.
“We did not intentionally burn down that cabin to get Mr. Dorner out,” he said.
His deputies lobbed pyrotechnic tear gas into the cabin, and it erupted in flames, he said. McMahon did not say directly that the tear gas started the blaze, and the cause of the fire was under investigation.
Now there are photos of the burned out cabin. Click through these with that official statement above in mind. You may ask yourself (in David Byrne’s voice if it helps):
Does it look like they used armored vehicles to knock down the walls? Wouldn’t there be tire tracks or treads in the snow approaching all, or at least some, sides of the cabin?
Even though everything is pretty much obliterated, doesn’t it seem like there would be evidence that the walls had been pushed in? Perhaps larger piles of ash in the interior rooms or something?
In the first photo, what looks like a redwood fence at the upper left is still partially intact. I am just trying to imagine them knocking down walls and driving an armored vehicle around and still leaving so many things upright.
Given that tear gas is known to cause fires, it only makes sense that they would have had fire equipment standing by and yet it is very, very clear that they made no attempt whatsoever to put the fire out. That makes their statement that they didn’t start the fire in order to flush Dorner out (or burn him alive) pretty hard to swallow.
Please contribute your own questions (or potential answers) to this post. It appears that so far, the MSM is content to just publish these photos without engaging in any sort of critical thought.



80 Comments

Here is another account with even more detail, about how they used incendiary tear gas and then “pushed the walls in one by one.” Hmmmmmm.
You might find it interesting, I sure did, that the local news here in Orlando, found it necessary to run a story claiming the LAPD didn’t burn the house down on purpose. I have not seen glaring headlines proclaiming the LAPD purposefully burned the house down, other than on blogs, like FDL and that Counterpunch article. So why the PR spin? Guilty as charged?
I too find the pictures you linked to “telling”. The fireplace is still standing, as well as the fence you mentioned. Not to mention that utility pole. With all the recent snow, the ground has to be nothing but mud, but yet no tire tracks and no mud carried from the yard to the street. The street seemed pretty pristine to me.
I can’t condone what Dorner did but, as usual, the messenger gets shot and the message swept under the rug. That’s the biggest tragedy here. I was kinda hoping he could pull an Eric Rudolph and hide out in the mountains for 5 years with his message getting the attention it deserves.
My take is that the cops are trying to get out ahead of all the blogs and twitter and social media, where people really are questioning what happened. I have seen lots of headlines in the MSM about how they didn’t do it on purpose.
Edited to add: I agree that it would have been interesting if Dorner had been able to elude them, although it would have been awful for the police family members as well as anyone who might have been mistaken for Dorner.
Humm….thoughts going through my head..Stasi or Waffen SS….
Thanks for the link to the photos, hfc.
The scene around the house looks odd to me. Around the other houses, the snow goes right up to the walls themselves on all sides.
Here, there is bare ground, even beyond the burn line. And the burn line is so symmetrical. It almost looks like retardant could have been sprayed outside a burn zone, including on some trees that are very close to what were the walls.
If there was retardant sprayed that would explain why the police weren’t worried about burning down the forest and the neighborhood. They were not letting the firefighters in.
They wanted the house to completely burn. Except, of course, for the part of the house where Dorner’s wallet was “found”.
Here is a photo of what the cabin looked like before the fire. And here’s another one.
Wow, good point about the area around the cabin. In the second link I posted above, there is a TV screenshot from before the fire. It appears that the snow went right up to the cabin. You’d expect the snow to be melted that close to the fire, of course, but it doesn’t seem like it would be so symmetrical.
Well I down loaded a couple of the pics and looked at them with Photozoom pro and can’t see where there had been any heavy equipment near the cabin, let alone pushing in walls or anything.
I’m glad it’s not just me. It seems like these are pretty basic questions and yet the media seems to be taking these photos at face value.
Of course, the police could be mistaken. They could have “burned the motherfucker” and thought what they were seeing was heavy equipment knocking down walls rather than walls burning down from the fire they set themselves and didn’t allow to be put out.
But that might set the stage for them possibly being mistaken for other things as well.
Mistaken ABOUT other things.
No, it’s not just you.
But that is how the game is set up. To make us doubt our own lying eyes and ears and brains.
Okay, this little puppy must go to sleep now. Catch you manana.
Well you can’t hide your lyin eyes.
In the you-can’t-make-this-shit-up department, Eric Funnell, the son of the owner of the cabins, runs 911 Restoration, a company that cleans up after fires and other disasters.
Me too, I need some sleep. I expect that this will all be cleared up by morning. Nothing to see here, move along . . .
On the way out, I noticed the video up top. Clever.
:)
I am directed by a higher authority to inform you that…
50 of your officers were shot while escaping.
Shot?
Their… personal effects will be returned.
How many of them were wounded?
Here are the names… of ze dead.
How many of the 50 were wounded?
None.
The claim that they heard a single gunshot was to explain that he must be dead already: Usually when police kill someone such as an accused killer, they claim that the person killed himself. Sometimes both reports come out: That the police saved the day by emptying bullets into him, but he killed himself.
“Suicide by cop” they call it.
The impression I got at the start of the audio, talking about the blood stain, it sounds like they shot him, or they shot whoever was in the cabin, probably not him, and they burned it down according to “the plan” so that the body of the person whom they killed won’t be identified, kind of like the lie ‘We Murdered bin Laden, but we respected him so much that we had to destroy the body in a traditional desert sea burial.’
At the beginning of the part where they said they found Dorner’s burning truck, didn’t they say they were already in that area because they said Dorner had an acquaintance up there who they said they had under surveillance? Was his name also Eric? Or am I remembering that incorrectly?
Also, if Dorner was in that rental cabin because he’d run in when escaping from the truck he’d carjacked, he wouldn’t have been able to carry much, so how was all that ammo in there that was exploding in the fire?
Heh. It seems the title of this piece at the Guardian was changed (original in the url), but I’d like to know who ‘SDSaxMan’ who loaded this video onto youtube is. It’s the one Maxie Blumenthal has already verified.
The Guardian says they ‘cannot confirm that it’s genuine, etc.’, but clipped these remarks by ‘a male voice’:
Max’s piece at Alternet did *seem* to confirm that some demolition vehicle was pushing down walls…
It’s at least encouraging that a few MSM outlets are questioning the ‘official’ version.
The story of pushing in the walls is preposterous. No idea why they would trot that pony out at all. Absurd. The police were at bay in the gun battle.
I saw a reporter from the LATimes last night talking about the gas. First they used tear gas more mild, then went to some kind of tear gas that was “hotter” and more incendiary. They shot it in there, the fire started. They let it burn.
There was quite a gun fight that continued for a while, the reporter said. So the tear gas was the way for the police to get a leg up, from what I heard.
The fire was clearly the plan. It went down just like they wanted it to.
Dunno, bgrothus. Max confirmed the demolition vehicle, but there are only tracks on one side of the cabin. Who knows at what point they were made?
I was trying to figure out what the river rock floor in one of the photos went to; it was clear of any debris at all. I did download the photo that seemed to show the basement, and was full of orange evidence flags to zoom in on it, but the pixels broke up soon.
The x-strength canisters were called ‘pyrotechnic teargas’, by some, but the Guardian had a different name. (it’s been a whole twenty minutes since I read it, lol.) I missed the bits about how Dorner’s wallet was still whole, though.
Max pointed out that it took six years until the Feds admitted that they started the fire in Waco, so…thank goodness for citizen journalism.
Er (blushing red)…check that about the river rock floor. It was mine crap eyes playing perspective tricks on me: it was the bloody chimney I’d been looking at.
Factually accurate statement, I’d guess. The police had no intention of trying to get Dorner out, or at least not while Dorner was still alive.
The LAPD ought to be honest about setting the fire. It’s not like there would be any accountability or prosecution for their actions by either the DA or the media. Claiming that the fire was not deliberately set just further erodes what little credibility they had.
Yep. The wallet survived that fire? Unlikely.
If the wallet was in his pocket, underneath him, I think it would survive. Finding a wallet in the rubble, another story.
Some years back, when the government burned Los Alamos, I went through a lot of rubble. I spent many many hours in the ash and rubble of a lot of houses. A lot of burned stuff is interesting and beautiful.
It’s a magic wallet, because they already found it at the Mexican border once. This is some rootin’ tootin’ great journalism here on the part of the esteemed OC Register; their story mentions both wallets but they don’t question that rather bizarre “fact”:
The first paragraph of the article says:
Buried further down in the article, just before the Targeting Police subhead:
You know what would be freakin typical – the LAPD torched the wrong cabin.
This puzzles me also, yellowsnapdragon, since I would think it an understandable tactic to force surrender, especially after one policeman has been fatally shot, another seriously wounded. The question would really be, I think, did they prevent an unarmed surrender in this case? I can’t make a judgment call on that.
I remember wanting that to happen in Waco where children were in the thick of it, but it really applies across the board. In a civilized society we want human life to be respected and the courts to finally have the measure of it. We have departed so far from that standard, it just breaks my heart.
Thanks for that link. I am shocked! that none of our domestic news agencies have figured out that the police don’t always tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
But wait! Christine Pelisek has the inside story over at The Daily Beast:
So this entire “inside story” appears to be based on police interviews and reports which are taken at face value.
They will use the excuse that Dorner was shooting at them, which seems to be true. But it doesn’t appear that they wasted any time in starting a conflagration. I don’t think they ever had any intention of allowing him to surrender. Dead men tell no tales. And I think (or at least I hope) that Dorner killed himself if/when he realized he was trapped. He may have intended to do so no matter what, knowing what would be in store for him were he to be captured.
Very interesting. I don’t think I read about any of that; do you remember where you saw it?
Arrggh; that ‘award-winning’ crime reporter’s crap prose gave me two headaches: one in each cheek.
LOL, me too. I was momentarily excited about reading something NEW! and ORIGINAL! It’s really depressing how much of the MSM is the exact same text recycled with a new intro or headline and that’s it. And how much of the first reports are just dead wrong. Somehow the “two cleaning ladies” who discovered Dorner in another cabin and were held hostage turn out to be the owners of the cabin, an older man and woman, whose “terrifying ordeal” is generating the latest breathless tabloid headlines. While I am sure it was indeed very scary for them, it lasted all of 15 minutes and Dorner told them repeatedly that he was not going to hurt them.
The thing about log cabins is that these huge logs (if that is in fact what they are and it sure seems that way from the photos) don’t burn that easy. In fact that is one of the selling points about log homes. It takes a lot to get large logs to stay lit. Moreover, the roof appears to be an asphalt shingle and these don’t burn very well either.
These had to be incendiaries.
Mebbe Oprah will have em on… ‘cleaning lades’, LOL!
It now appears that the photo I clicked on (see comment 6) which showed what appeared to be log cabins is no longer available at the link. So somebody needs to find out whether these were in fact log cabins or just pseudo log cabins. Because not only are large logs hard to ignite, most come with a fire retardant. It would be interesting to know who built the cabins. If that info was discovered, I would bet we could learn a lot about how these cabins were built and how hard they are to burn.
Here’s a photo and more information about the historic cabins, which were built in the 1920s. Mr. hfc, who is a carpenter, says that it looks like it is a brown shingle house, and there ain’t nothing more flammable than a brown shingle. They were prevalent in Northern California; I am looking for additional links.
Who went to prison for the fire in Philly the cops bomb started ? The victims inside the inferno.
And those who watched it live the fire company started to put out the initial fire but were stopped by the police department to Burn um out. Had the trucks and water on site and refused to stop a fire, they started , until 120 homes went up in smoke. Those Move members were among ” the worst of the worst “as per Police script.
As Billy Joel says, it was always burning since the world’s been turning. Same as it ever was.
The small vehicle in the upper right of photo 11 appears to be an armored, tracked skid-steer. The blade on the front can be to raised ten feet and could easily have pushed in partially burned walls which from the photo and the tracks on the ground happened on both sides of the standing stone chimney.
These machines turn in place and could easily have operated on three sides of the house within ten feet of the structure without tearing up the soil or leaving much in the way of visible tracks. The melted snow from the heat of the fire extends toward the top left of the same photo and this is the direction of the slight wind shown in earlier helicopter news footage.
Just some practical observations, not sure if these fit anyone’s theories.
Either that’s a new photo that they’ve added since I posted this or I just missed it the first time. I did notice earlier that the order of the photos had changed so maybe they are continuing to update them.
In any case, seeing that vehicle and the tracks it made does make it easier to see how they could have used it to push down walls. I don’t see any tracks on the other three sides, although I suppose the vehicle is small enough that it might have maneuvered in snow close to the house that might have melted later. I am still dubious that they pushed all the walls down before the fire started; it almost seems more like they pushed them in while the fire was going on (if, as you suggest, they could have gotten close safely with that raised blade). It seems like they were trying to trap him inside, not flush him out.
I would like to caution everybody about using the term LAPD. LAPD refers to the Los Angeles CITY Police Department and is different from the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department. The final incident occurred in San Bernardino County Sheriffs’ jurisdiction. I doubt any LAPD personnel were there.
San Bernardino County used to be famous for being the meth capital of the country.
On second look, what first appeared to be a skid steer track in the snow, could be a long heavy extension pole on the front of the machine. That could have been used to advantage to even more efficiently demolish any wood structured building.
The fire was a post flashover fire. Post flashover fires can burn wood at a rate of 11 inches per hour or more. A typical chimney fire never gets that hot. If the wood is immersed in a post flashover fire burning at 11 inches per hour per side, that almost a two foot diameter log will be gone within 60 minutes.
Incendiaries generally get the fire going faster than matches. A match fire may take 10-15 minutes to get to a post flashover burning rate. An incendiary device will get the fire to that high level of burning within minutes (or seconds).
Incendiaries may have started the fire, but the fire burned as a post flashover once started.
You are correct. But I don’t believe, as the LAPD suggested, that the San Bernardino Sheriffs Dept was calling all the shots during the entire episode. More like the FBI; there was enough time for everybody to get involved. LAPD would prefer not to take any responsibility for what happened at Big Bear, I am sure of that.
Hmmm. Not ATF?
Enlarged the photo, that is a boom extension on the skid steer. Could have directly delivered and precisely placed any type of charge right into the interior of the house. Don’t know enough about military hardware to guess if the boom is telescopic.
Probably them too.
Would it? In a fire like that, Dorner’s clothes would have burned. Assuming his wallet was in his back pocket (I’d not be carrying my id in my wallet on my person if I were a fugitive on the run) that *would* be the most protected part of his body in a fire if he were on his back. But look at the charred ruins. Nothing. Survived.
Maybe, just maybe Dorner had one of those aluminum wallets…
If we’re talking about “shake shingles”, they are indeed notorious around here for flammability. Many older houses have or had them.
The wallet thing really intrigues me. If they really found his wallet, with his ID in it, at the border, did he drop it there on purpose? He certainly would not have handed it over to anyone willingly. He could have been ditching it with the intent to cross the border or make it look as if that was his intention. But then he had a second wallet? Because it’s really likely that he didn’t have time or opportunity to get some sort of fake replacement during the week he was on the run. So he had two wallets from the beginning? I suppose anything is possible. But the discovery of the wallet in the fire – which I am almost positive was reported to have been found during the same period they were saying it was too dangerous to enter the building – is hella suspicious to me. It’s the ideal “discovery” to shut down any further speculation that the burned body in the cabin might not be Dorner.
The “before” photo definitely shows some kind of wood shingles. I suppose they could be on top of logs but I kind of doubt it. Seems like the remains of a full-blown log cabin that burned would look quite a bit different from what we are seeing.
Yeah, exactly. Not much evidence of Dorner’s presence would have the same credibility as a wallet. DNA, but that takes time.
For the record, I believe it probably was Dorner in the cabin. However, the police are simply not to be believed because there have been so many details related to Dorner that have been obviously fabricated.
One piece at the Guardian said the cops found the wallet *beside* him, but so many say so much about so many pieces of information/speculation/trial balloons. Couldn’t find any indication that ATF was on the scene; Huffpo speculated DEA, dunno why.
But it’s hard nit to imagine that every Rambo agency wouldn’t want a piece of this.
As I recall reading somewhere, the SB Sheriff is relatively new (talk about trial by fire). Having all this go down in a remote mountain village where it’s easy to restrict traffic must have made LAPD very happy. They can take whatever credit is due and new guy from the sticks gets the blame, should there ever be any blame. Of course, that’s a little simplistic since SB County is huge and includes large metro areas.
Given that Big Bear was the main search site for the entire week, I suspect every agency had somebody there. And it’s not that far from civilization; I think they have, like helicopters and stuff that could transport a G-man or two up the hill.
I’ve been going back over earlier stories, but I can’t find it and the LA Times pay wall is being hostile to me.
The illustrious Van Jones weighs in. I don’t know about you all, but I was certainly wondering what Van thought about all this. Dorner expressed liberal political views but had the nerve to get burned up during the SOTU.
Here’s what I think, Van: STFU.
I outwitted that paywall by using a different browser; not sure how long that will last. :)
Heheh. I did not wonder what Van Jones had to say. What an ass.
Heh. That reminds me of one of my diaries that er…got me in some hot water. But holy sufferin’ sailfish, look how many people used to be here just seven months ago (or so).
That title alone shoulda won you a Webby or a Bloggy or something. And yeah, where the heck did everybody go?
Not directly related, but
Link
One benefit to the police is that this story distracts us from the day-to-day injustices that they mete out. It’s impossible to keep track of it all, especially with the lapdog media.
Thanks for the link, I’ll check it out.
The body has been positively identified as Dorner. I put an update at the very top of this diary.
Thank you, hotflashcarol. Get some good sleep and better dreams. Listen to this if you have time; EF Beall stuck it at the end of my defunct diary. Or at least some of it; it’s long, but takes you on a journey between hell and heaven. Just like…life. ;o)
Tangent observation:
This is ripe for a staged show.
The chickenshit/bully law enforcement types had hyped up a frenzy over this guy but had not left themselves an out of they f’ed up and couldn’t find him. If he had got away, how would they have lived it down or justified telling people that he was still at large, and that they weren’t competent enough to find him.
Has anyone hyped as dangerous as this guy ever not been found according to the official story?
typo:
“an out if they f’ed”
There is always that possibility when we’re talking about the police.
I think people are feeling hopeless.
Why would anyone stay in a house on fire unless they were asleep, dead or to hurt from a gunshot to leave the building?
thanks for covering this story Hotflashcarol what is the latest police response to Dorner’s allegation’s about racism will anyone investigate that we can trust to do a good investigation?
Polling of African American’s to see if they believe Dorner would be interesting.
Dorner may have shot himself; I hope he did that and didn’t burn to death. There are unconfirmed reports that he attempted to leave the building after it caught fire and was pushed back in.
I can only report what I have seen from various non-MSM journalists and other commentators throughout California and a few elsewhere, and pretty much everyone believes that Dorner’s allegations have a great deal of merit. Except Van Jones, of course. LAPD Chief Beck said he would re-open Dorner’s case but I expect it to be a dog and pony show for the media, who will act as LAPD stenographers and won’t question whatever the outcome.
I hope he did not shoot himself but if he did not then the police pushing him back in seems more likely.
I do hope there is an investigation. I hope your governor and Obama decide to take action.
( I can Dream can’t I)
Yes, Jerry Brown and Obama have shown great interest in the plight of police brutality victims. Dream on, my friend. :)
I do not think the media really wants to see just how much Dark People and poor Whites are willing to believe Dorner’s accusation’s.
Not telling the whole truth can change public opinion their way however if people were to be informed of Dorner’s accusation’s the number of Dark People and Poor Whites who would they believe them I think would shock the Media and the polling companies.
But with Congress’s approval ratings in the toilet my guess is the people most oppressed by government would hate the police the most.
If you hate the IRS the most that means you actually have money.
Right. Waco. The Symbionese Liberation Army. Etc. Operation Move in Philadelphia. Etc.
When you openly oppose the U.S. government, don’t expect the fire department to be a lot of help. The burnout has been SOP (standard operating procedure) in such cases for a long time. The fire is never intentionally set by the cops, but generally manages to eradicate the leadership and/or the entire membership of said movement.