In his interview with George Stephanopoulos today, Obama hedged on several issues related to Bush’s War on Terror. With regard to shutting down Gitmo, Stephanopoulos asked Obama twice if it would be shut down within Obama’s first 100 days. Such a closure would signal that it was a top priority and that Obama was serious about returning to the rule of law and repairing our reputation in the world.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You also agreed on Guantanamo when you say you want to shut it down. You say you’re still going to shut it down. Is it turning out to be harder than you expected, will you get that done in the first 100 days?
OBAMA: It is more difficult than I think a lot of people realize and we are going to get it done but part of the challenge that you have is that you have a bunch of folks that have been detained, many of whom who may be very dangerous who have not been put on trial or have not gone through some adjudication. And some of the evidence against them may be tainted even though it’s true. And so how to balance creating a process that adheres to rule of law, habeas corpus, basic principles of Anglo American legal system, by doing it in a way that doesn’t result in releasing people who are intent on blowing us up.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So not necessarily first 100 days.
OBAMA: That’s a challenge. I think it’s going to take some time and our legal teams are working in consultation with our national security apparatus as we speak to help design exactly what we need to do. But I don’t want to be ambiguous about this. We are going to close Guantanamo and we are going to make sure that the procedures we set up are ones that abide by our constitution. That is not only the right thing to do but it actually has to be part of our broader national security strategy because we will send a message to the world that we are serious about our values.
So no, Obama will not close Guantanamo in his first 100 days and the appropriate conclusions can be drawn by us and the world. And while Obama repeats the old inflammatory rhetoric that many of these are very dangerous people intent on “blowing us up,” here are the facts as best we know them. There are currently some 250 detainees at Gitmo. Of these only about 20 have been charged with anything and the government has indicated that it might like to charge at most 80. Even if we accept the higher number, it is simply untrue that our courts and our prison system could not accommodate them. Our court system has handled terrorist cases in the past and if anything these prosecutions have shown that the bar for conviction before an American jury is extraordinarily low. As for those not charged, they should be treated for the damage done them by their incarceration. Their home countries should be pressured into accepting them and their situations should be monitored to see they are not abused. For some like the Uighurs, either they should be released to third countries or failing that to the United States. Obama’s delay on closing Guantanamo, his raising spurious obstacles convey the very opposite of the message he wishes to send to the rest of the world that “we are serious about our values.”
Stephanopoulos also asked Obama if he would investigate and prosecute those who broke the law under the Bush Administration. Stephanopoulos asked him this three times. The first time was with reference to the proposal for a special prosecutor from Obama’s own website:
STEPHANOPOULOS: The most popular question on your own website is related to this. On change.gov it comes from Bob Fertik of New York City and he asks, "Will you appoint a special prosecutor ideally Patrick Fitzgerald to independently investigate the greatest crimes of the Bush administration, including torture and warrantless wiretapping."
OBAMA: We’re still evaluating how we’re going to approach the whole issue of interrogations, detentions, and so forth. And obviously we’re going to be looking at past practices and I don’t believe that anybody is above the law. On the other hand I also have a belief that we need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards. And part of my job is to make sure that for example at the CIA, you’ve got extraordinarily talented people who are working very hard to keep Americans safe. I don’t want them to suddenly feel like they’ve got to spend all their time looking over their shoulders and lawyering (ph).
Obama repeated the line about moving forward 4 times in all:
my instinct is for us to focus on how do we make sure that moving forward we are doing the right thing. That doesn’t mean that if somebody has blatantly broken the law, that they are above the law. But my orientation’s going to be to move forward.
And
my general belief is that when it comes to national security, what we have to focus on is getting things right in the future, as opposed looking at what we got wrong in the past
So while Obama maintains he doesn’t think anyone is above the law he makes it clear that he isn’t actually that interested in pursuing those who broke the law under Bush. And what does “blatantly broken the law” mean? Is this some new prosecutorial standard? And even if you accepted this wacky notion, how can breaking the law on torture and domestic spying not fall under the “blatant” rubric? How can you have the rule of law if it is to be such a sometime thing? How can you deter future illegal conduct if you sanction it now?
Although it was the first of the topics I am treating here discussed in the interview, I thought I would close with it because I found it so telling. Stephanopoulos plays a tape of Dick Cheney saying:
Before you start to implement your campaign rhetoric you need to sit down and find out precisely what it is we did and how we did it. Because it is going to be vital to keeping the nation safe and secure in the years ahead and it would be a tragedy if they threw over those policies simply because they’ve campaigned against them
And what is Obama’s reply?
I think that was pretty good advice, which is I should know what’s going on before we make judgments and that we shouldn’t be making judgments on the basis of incomplete information or campaign rhetoric. So, I’ve got no quibble with that particular quote. I think if Vice President Cheney were here he and I would have some significant disagreements on some things that we know happened.
Yes, folks, Obama is taking advice from Cheney himself. That really is change we can believe in, isn’t it? But wait, you say, he also said he disagreed with Cheney on a lot of things. But what things precisely?
For example, Vice President Cheney I think continues to defend what he calls extraordinary measures or procedures when it comes to interrogations and from my view waterboarding is torture. I have said that under my administration we will not torture.
Of course, the Bush Administration too has said it does not torture. And the rejection of waterboarding is a difference although it is only one of many torture techniques. But does this mean that Obama will push for all government agencies, including the CIA, to adhere to the interrogation techniques permitted by the Army Field Manual? Well no.
I’m not going to lay out a particular program because again, I thought that Dick Cheney’s advice was good, which is let’s make sure we know everything that’s being done.
So even on torture, Obama waffles. If Obama was seriously opposed to torture, it would have cost him nothing to point out that A)torture does not work and that B)the guidelines of the Army Field Manual sounded reasonable to him. Instead he thinks it would be a good idea to follow the advice of the most evil and twisted Vice President in our history, and he says this twice just in case we might think it was a slip of the tongue. To this I say, do we really need to wait until January 20th or later before we can begin to assess what Obama says and does? And would we be so reticent and hesitant if this were oh say, George Bush?



14 Comments







Great post.
Sounds like the old scary man-behind-the-curtain strategy…don’t tell the “enemy” what you will or won’t do, and preferably make them think that you are capable of the worst behavior. It doesn’t necessarily indicate what BO will do or not do. We shall see. I hope we’re not looking at just another new, modern “figurehead” for the same old, same old…
Yes.
Much was made back in Clinton era about how he tried to do too much too fast, and that was even with a DLCish (i.e. Repub) agenda. The Repub-controlled BigMedia outlets saw to it that the 1994 elections favored Repubs and allowed the Loose Newts to scuttle any minor Liberal reform Clinton might’ve tried to enact. Watching “Face the Schieffer” this morning, I could see they’re already at it again. Obama has said that this history is influencing his actions.
The context that Obama and we are working in was not created by him or us. These dynamics were carefully created over decades so that no actual Liberal policies are passed. This is the environment Obama is working in. This is what his “80 votes” language is about and all the “post-partisan” stuff. He’s defusing their stink bombs.
Just as Obama did during the campaign many times, he first has to bust the dominant narrative and then he comes along with an alternative. He has to first stop the pendulum (which has now happened I think) before it can start swinging to the side of truth and justice, which is just now starting. It’s up to us to make it pick up speed.
I learn from and agree with most everything I read on the FDL frontpages and often in the comments, especially policy details and historical context. However, the amount of time criticizing Obama far outweighs the time complimenting the many good deeds he’s done, and it’s like shooting ourselves in the foot IMHO. I’ve just been asking for more balance.
If my Hope if correct, Obama’s strategy will be brilliant. If I’m wrong and Obama doesn’t really give a shit about about a Liberal future, it’s gonna blow big time, and Blue America will probably see a surge of support, at least from me.
So since I know how difficult it is just to get a small group of people to agree on a change of direction, even on the very small nonprofit Boards I serve on, I’m willing to wait and see some results once Obama is actually President before deciding he’s another Clinton charlatan. 90 days will give a good gauge, and within two Friedman Units (1 year) we should know fer shure.
In the meantime, it would be nice to start developing strategies to gain support for many of the ideas I see here at FDL, since more often than not I think they are correct. Incessant, and often unfair, sniping ain’t gonna make that happen though.
Wouldn’t be surprising if Mr. Obama turns out to be GW Bush the 3rd. I’ve noticed a trend here for Mr. Obama to back-track on some of his most important campaign promises. What is even more interesting is his habit of angering the Democrat Leaders and then changing his plans when someone complains. Make me thing we have no idea what to expect from this man.
That would be DemocratIC Leaders. No need to do Lush Limpballz’s work for him, now is there?
http://www.newyorker.com/archi….._hertzberg
I think at worst, Obama will be another Bill Clinton type, so Shrub the 3rd seems improbable to me.
Great diary, Hugh. Glenn Greenwald had a very similar reaction to Obama’s interview: http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
Thanks for the link. This interview was just so infuriating. OTOH there is all this pablum about closing Gitmo, not torturing, respecting the rule of law but then on the other, and re-establishing our rep in the world but when it comes down to actually committing to doing any of this he goes all mushy and mealymouthed. None of this is that complicated. It just needs to be done, and it says so much that Obama is so reluctant all of a sudden to do it.
If Obama were a television show, he would have the distinction of jumping the shark before the first episode. If he can’t be firm and clear on issues like these, then we can’t expect him to be on anything.
He’s afraid of offending the neocons. It’s been clear that they own Hillary, but it’s now looking like he is bought and paid for too.
From the interview:
Bad enough he adopts Bush policies, he’s using the same language.
These passages are ominous:
“…creating a process that adheres to rule of law, habeas corpus, basic principles of Anglo American legal system, by doing it in a way that doesn’t result in releasing people who are intent on blowing us up.”
“procedures we set up are ones that abide by our constitution.”
One could say that several alternative procedures and frameworks were “set up” to begin with, from using existing domestic law, to crafting a special legal procedures in accordance with an existing framework of international law. They were ignored and that resulted in the total mess we have now. Some probably culpable and dangerous people cannot be tried in an acceptable way, many many more completely innocent people’s lives were destroyed, many were killed. So what is with this ‘creating’ and ‘we set up’?
To cynical ears, it could signal an attempt at some acceptable ‘redo’ of something that should not be redone: trying to wing some ad hoc legal junk on our own and on the fly. I think there is no acceptable redo of anything like Cheney/Bush did of any sort.
That wording could be (not saying it is, but could be) from one of Cheney/Bush’s more articulate lieutenants in some kind of ground hog day political universe.
I am hopefully (and to be honest, more and more tentatively) with bonkers on the incoming Obama administration. I do not want to spend time complaining about whether Obama is progressive or not (his is not in many ways). But, sticking to substance of the matter, we have to make it very clear that a more competent Cheney/Bush regime is not acceptable, and will not advance the national interests of the United States.
I think that is exactly what he is talking about, the acceptable part referring to a way to include “evidence” gained by torture. My own view is that the commissions process has been so corrupted that it should be done away with, not redone. The federal courts are the only legitimate venue I can see now to handle these cases.
From MSNBC: Obama preparing order to close Gitmo
From the article:
This makes perfect sense, while we might be just holding the proverbial “Uighars,” I have no problem with having a case-by-case review of every single detainee. If there’s a bad apple in there, put them in federal prison and try them ASAP.
I am in total agreement with “Bonkers” when he or she says this:
IMHO, the mess that the Bush administration is leaving behind is massive and due to the secrecy under which Cheney and co operates it is extremely difficult for anyone to act before receiving all of the facts. One thing we have to keep in mind that Obama is a trained and licensed attorney – they like to have as many facts in hand before speculating too much.
While on the surface this is good news, the question remains how long it will take to close Gitmo. Closing the place and transferring the prisoners to federal jurisdiction could be done in less than 100 days. The cases could be adjudicated there. Perhaps I am merely being cynical but this sounds very much like a stall. While the Obama Administration is evaluating cases will defense attorneys have access to their clients as they would under the federal system? Writing the order is a good first step but it is only a first step. The rest of what happens is unclear, and it is important to remember that these prisoners have been awaiting real justice, either to punish or free them, for 6 years now.
Great post Hugh. That was the second time Obama came out and repeated the I-lobby war with Iran zealots. He said that Iran is “pursuing nuclear weapons”. The first time I heard him repeat this was on Face the Nation before the election when he said Iran “is” developing nuclear weapons. With Hillary as Secretary of State (voted for the Iraq war resolution and the Kyl Lieberman amendment) and Dennis “Israel’s lawyer” Ross now the envoy for Iran honesty and diplomacy with Iran is not looking good.
There were strong indicators that we would hear Obama take up the bi partisan theme song “time to move forward, turn the page, next chapter” yada yada. Frightening and disappointing.
Sounds like our Congress, and the Obama administration will just bulldoze over the broken and dead bodies of thousands of American soldiers and Iraqi people moving forward with their “fixing the economy” agenda.
If I had lost a kid in the ongoing and destructive wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I would be knocking down the doors of this administration and my reps. The only way to “move forward” is to hold all individuals who created and disseminated false intelligence ACCOUNTABLE. Along with all those who manipulated laws so that people could be tortured.
Accountability Now
This part is key:
The defense attorneys should be allowed immediate access on January 20 or 21. If that doesn’t happen, THEN I agree with you that there is something stinky going on.