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Wendy Davis has disappeared, so, Wendy, if you read this, respond accordingly.
Otherwise, perhaps, one of the managers would care to respond?
Jaango
Bringing back Wendy Davis, my companera |
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| By: jaango Monday June 18, 2012 1:53 pm | |
Wendy Davis has disappeared, so, Wendy, if you read this, respond accordingly.
Otherwise, perhaps, one of the managers would care to respond?
Jaango
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187 Comments
I noticed that too. I recommended it, and it had lots of comments, the last of which sounded like a sign-off for the night.
Noticed that as well, for an entire diary and comments instantly disappeared is odd, especially one that has bubbled to the top on recommendations.
Yeah,WTF happened? I was busy reading the Glenn Greenwald links a commenter posted abut Cass Sunstein where Krugman was blasting FDL and Marcy Wheeler for calling out the Gruber payoff via the ACA and when finished, closed the tabs and the page was no longer there. W/O explanation, only speculation exists and none of it is in a positive frame of reference.
I do not remember reading anything that would be considered outlandish or even controversial.
WHAT!!??
We have been away today.
From ‘find people’; last comment WD posted before going to sleep: “Ahh; now I remember what I said that you construed as ‘an attack on our guests’. I’d thoought you’d meant I’d jovially attacked Guest Obey , which I do now and again. But you’re right, even repeating another’s jovial disrespect is…disrespectful. Obey: my ad speaks to spending GROWTH being lower under OBomba, so it covers his ass [...]” ; looks like some misunderstanding between her and a mod.
Though why just the ‘not tolerated’ comments weren’t deleted leaving the diary intact is another q.
testing, testing, 1,9,8,4
Last I saw she responded to my comment and then one below it. I’m just now checking back in. So I’m a bit confused by this strange turn of events…
I just looked at the same. But there’s this:
“For now, I need to say that I’m in dire need of some sleep if I can manage it; gotta headache as big as Rahmville, IL. See ya all soon.”
…so it sounds like Wendy has a raging headache. She is very diligent about keeping up with her threads, so if she got sick, there is the possibility that she needed to step away until the headache passes…she may have chosen to unpublish for the moment so she can get to feeling better.
I can vouch at how incapacitating a migraine or a raging headache can be.
I hope that Wendy will get to feeling better and can get some rest.
Miss you Wendy!
I sent an email to firedoglake@gmail.com. Good god, what a priggish pratfall this disappearance is. I’ve been insulted more emphatically and nobody erased my detractors.
wendy’s member page is still here: http://my.firedoglake.com/members/wendydavis/
whereas if you click on Robert Alexander Dumas’s name (banned in the Clucking Hens diary for angry insubordination I think), it resolves to nothing: http://my.firedoglake.com/jest/2011/09/01/if-obama-caves-to-the-left-now-progressives-will-still-lose/#comment-1
I’d guess that Wendy still exists here but her diary was taken down, reason unknown.
Crane Station –
Here’s the lowdown:
Wendy put up a great thread relating to Van Jone’s fiasco of a Book Salon appearance, where he repeatedly dodged hard questions and a mod deleted several question/comments, and admonished several here not to be uncivil to guests.
Wendy’s post was great, both the headline and the content. There must have been 4-5 dozen comments. I did some other stuff and came back to see the latest comments, and suddenly the thread is GONE! No longer on the recent stories list. Went to my activity on MyFDL account, found my last comment on that thread, hit the link, and got…a page can’t be found message.
This is, in a word, awful. And unsupportable. It is just as bad, if not worse, than Michael Cavlan’s banning a few weeks ago.
Somebody has gone overboard. Methinks it has to do with an new mod who has a quick trigger finger and makes some dubious distinctions about what is, and is not, permissable comment here at the Lake.
Any way you can make sure she is all right?
Well thank you, jaango. I just woke up, and indeed that whole post has disappeared. I don’t see any flaggie things on my dashboard, didn’t get an email advising me off why it was pulled. How very odd.
Ubetcha’s right, that was my last comment, which I thought was quite conciliatory. I’m still fuzzy from sleep, so I’m not thinking well about what’s going on. If I get any smarter, I’ll add a thought.
Meanwhile, thank you sooo much for caring enough to post this, mi amigo.
“she may have chosen to unpublish for the moment so she can get to feeling better.”
Let’s hope so.
WD was at the top of the list; I renewed the page, and the title was gone, but her name was still at the top of the list. I renewed page again, and again just her name with no title for the article, and no article posted. The third time I renewed, her name was gone too.
Let’s see what the official explanation is. A couple months ago, it took a several hundred post thread and 3 days to learn that Michael’s banning was a mistake.
Seeing as your diary was disappeared in the middle of the day, I’m skeptical that it was done by a lone nut moderator.
Ah, there you are! Sorry I missed the disappeared post. Not that it hasn’t happened to me before.
Glad you’re still around and functioning (in all senses of the word), but — unless it is just some purely technical flaw and not an intentional act — deleting your post is inexcusable.
As I mentioned previously, over the past week or so I’ve noticed that we’ve evidently got a new mod who has a hair-trigger about comments, and is definitely not in tune with the usual limits of the back-and-forth here. (Perhaps when Fatster stepped up to doing the Round-Up, somebody new moved into her old slot as a mod? Assumbing she was previously a mod?)
Implying of course multiple nut moderators. :-)
Remember…never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. Or crappy software.
You might be right, but as we get closer to to the election I expect there will be more knee-jerk reactions by some here who still have emotional ties to the DemocRATS.
I also recall that when Raven left as a moderator, there had been a lot of friction between the increasingly harsh anti-Obama/anti-RATS faction and the Rat loyalists.
LOL.
(Not to mention, a logical conclusion!)
@ Wendy: As soon as I saw the title of your post I was able to intuit most of the content. I sat through most of the VJ stroke session.
I read most of the comment up to about 40 or 41 and saw nothing objectionable by past FDL standards.
Sure hope FDL is not turning into KOS.
Second that.
I think one last comment I got of Wendy’s, I was responding to Margaret about the difference between science and religion, so that would have been part 1 of the ‘friendship’ diary – my response took me to the page where you are told the terms of use, so I queried that when I came back, and Wendy assured me that it wasn’t a reprimand but more an automatic go around, come around thing that she also had experienced. This was my Sunday morning.
It has always impressed me how Wendy hosts her diaries – she always checks in and is so positive. Best wishes to her, and I don’t want her to leave, very much. I do hope somebody is in touch and can tell us what has occurred.
I’ve never ever ever seen FDL delete/ban members and/or posts or comments over stuff as benign as Wendy’s thread and the comments.
I have to give the benefit of the doubt.
I hope someone in the know will step forward and explain.
Actually, two or more people deciding to delete a post would be a conspiracy. Conspiracy theories have never been proven. I learned that within hours of Alan Grayson’s hostile reception a couple days ago:
http://my.firedoglake.com/kitoconnell/2012/06/14/watercooler-conspiracy/
Good work, Jaango. Many thanks!
My guess is that the mod told me not to ‘attack guests’, he/she/they didn’t like me quoting another comment that began with an imperative profane verb. At the time, I was laughing so hard at the remembrance, I never even considered that it would be seen as an attack.
The only secondary thought I’m having is if that’s the standard for guests, I sure hope that a whole list of bad characters don’t write books and come to the Salon as guests. I really did mean the diary: I’m tired of getting schmoozed by slick political figures.
The Paul Simon song, by the by, was said to be a play on this Dylan tune.
Oh, and my diaries are still here, and I’m grateful for that.
Hi, Wendy. We took a look and your post should be reinstated. I think there was an initial concern not about it, but that the comment section would turn into a mess, and it just takes too much energy to monitor just one comment section.
Everyone try not to kill/insult/defame/curse each other etc; it’s only June.
“It has always impressed me how Wendy hosts her diaries – she always checks in and is so positive.”
Wendy should be doing the watercooler posts every night. She might get more than 3 comments in her threads, and her original posts wouldn’t sound like Muzak.
Oh, lovely to have you appear when I only just realized you were missing (that’s how it sometimes is with my kids, who are now old enough to not be worried about – but hey, now you know how we feel about you!)
I guess I missed your diary completely – I do hope it can be resurrected somehow, sounded like your regular cut to the chase analysis to me!
Thank you Scarecrow. I think all of us on this thread will appreciate having it back. Seems like plenty of folks needed to vent a bit.
“…it’s only June”, lol!
And thank you once again, jaango. I swear, my brain does take vacations now and again, and I might have thought I only dreamt the whole post and comment stream.
Always looking for trouble.
I wanted to tell you, that your questions at that book salon were appropriate. Direct, on point, and ignored.
I don’t understand why a person would not be angry, in these times.
Heh. We generally don’t eat each other over here at my.fdl. As long as you’re cool with smack being talked about Dem apologists, I can’t imagine a problem (and fdl has never had a problem with that sort of smack being talked before, so I bet it’ll be fine. lol.)
Linguistic drift. What used to be termed ‘crackpot theories’ got tumbled around with conspiracy theorists until now, ‘conspiracy theory’ has taken the place of ‘crackpot theory’. Many law enforcement investigations depend on conspiracy theories, which are presented to grand juries and form the basis for prosecutions. Sometimes they’re difficult to prove, as Fitz’s celebrated indictment of Libby showed, but sometimes they’re relatively easy, as his conviction of Blago shows. Of course, most wiretaps are now wireless. *g*
Shoot! meant to say, smack being talked about PROFESSIONAL dem apologists. Dem leadership is where the rage is directed.
I was worried that you had somehow deleted and and gone to sleep.
Scarecrow:
I don’t doubt your explanation, but suggest that you and the other mods/staffers take a good look at the political situation as it exists, and will exist for the foreseeable future.
We’re entering into an election campaign in which a number of Veal Pen surrogates will be deployed in an effort to lure disenchanted voters back into the Obama camp with — plainly speaking — more bullshit promises and LOTE arguments which the majority of posters here detest and despise.
After the election, regardless of who wins control of Congress or the WH, we are going to be feted to a lame-duck session in which fifty years of the right wing’s wet dream is going to be enacted. Gutting of SSMM, more bankster bailouts (to help the Euro crisis), extension of the Obama tax cuts, and more draconian anti-civil liberties stuff, is all going to become the law of the land. (Or at least, if not the law, the reality of the land.)
A lot of us here have been frothing at the mouth angry at sellouts like Grayson, Leo Gerard, Trumka, and now Van Jones for coming here to peddle their shit sandwiches. We’ve been very explicit in talking about them. It is, IMO, unreasonable to ask us to play nice with these folks, who have consistently sold us out. We need to be able to tell them directly, in the sternest possible terms, how disgusted we are with them and the Rat party. Maybe, just maybe, a dose of virulent truth will open their eyes.
We have to stop acting deferential to those who betray us. We should be allowed to be just as harsh with them as we would with Palin or Rove or Newt or Beck. Because in the end, they’re on the same side.
It is lovely to have had folks rally, seriously.
As far as ‘analysis’, the post might be seen more as venting frustration, on the cranky op-ed side.
It’s just…this really is a time we’re battling for the soul of our nation, and sometimes I (and others) are extreme or intemperate in our language. (Not the post; I reckon it was fine, as Scarecrow agrees.)
Thank you all for your concern.
love to all,
wd
LOL!
Well, now, please, friends, let’s discuss how we should treat guests. Perhaps (if you’re here) Scarecrow, you can give us some pointers.
Thank you.
Boy, Jonesie sure stepped in with his Pelosi comment, didn’t he?
Yeah, I had real problems with the moderator’s censure during Van Jones weak-tea book salon. And so many others that day (even Kevin G, whom I adore) kept insisting on the virtue of “civility” during Q&A’s with an invited guest. I guess it depends on what one considers “civil.” Is it civil for the guest to ignore questions which address his hypocrisy? Or for the moderator to delete them? Apparently so…
I suggested to the moderator that moral concern for civility takes a back seat to moral concern for morality (Obama’s war crimes).
Indeed, haven’t tyrants always used “civility” as a mask for their murderous ways? I don’t think anyone would ever call Obama uncivil, huh?
Moulitsas banned me from dailygossip, for obvious (if censorious) reasons. I’ll be watching FDL to see what’s up.
“We should be allowed to be just as harsh with them as we would with Palin or Rove or Newt or Beck. Because in the end, they’re on the same side.”
Seconded.
There is no reason to be here if we can’t speak the truth as we see it.
The diary in question is there and has always been there, right now about 12 down from the top of MyFDL most recent diaries. I think the “censorship” paranoia is getting a little over the top. The system isn’t perfect and the most recommended list rotates, as has been explained by the FDL mods and switch throwers.
It’s back.
http://my.firedoglake.com/wendydavis/2012/06/18/i%E2%80%99ve-been-vanjonesed-and-democratted-progressivecaucussed-and-neolibrulfatcatted-till-i%E2%80%99m-blind/
Pretty sure the diary entry was actually deleted for a minute there…
Peg — The diary may be back up, for an hour or so it was — as John (Scarecrow) admitted — deleted. There was no way we could get to it, not even by linking from our own comments in the “My Activity” section. So it wasn’t just a rotational or technical thing.
It was gone for quite a while. I checked it out many times.
Who can say if it’s always been there since some of us were getting blank pages saying it doesn’t exist? That is, it disappeared. It’s what happens to dissenters sometimes.
Here’s the thing, BeachPopulist, as I see it. We have folk participating in this forum (and a great forum it is) who are not yet won over to what we think is or should be very clear by now. And they have a right to be here because they were here long before a lot of us.
Given that such elements of the very heart of the Lake do exist, and to be frank, some with whom I really do disagree on occasion as well – and all of these have also worked hard to keep the site what it is for all of us – when there are guests on the Book Salon, which is a very special place in its own right, I think there we have to allow for invites that are of interest to other people here. And sometimes, we might learn a bit ourselves.
There are diplomatic ways to effect a strong argument after a Salon – one of which I think Wendy chose to do as I don’t remember her commenting at all on the Salon itself. But I think it was Southern Dragon who said he would like to have had more chance for the book itself to be discussed and that was difficult to do given the nature of the arguments. I’m not saying a strong adversarial role isn’t appropriate at the Salon itself, but you can do that in subtle ways (I know you can. :) ) Think of that as like dressing up for lectures which we used to be required to do in my college days.
I’m getting to know a bit the ways of the various rooms in the house – and I think it is more real to have the diversity than not. As long as we get to make our arguments, and so far we do.
I suspect that the urging for “civility” from people like Kevin G or some others is a byproduct of familiarity. Folks like Kevin, Jon, Scarecrow, PW, and others still attend and participate in certain Dem party events or functions, or come into contact with Dem loyalists in the course of their duties. It’s only natural not to want to have to face questions about “why did you let those fucking retards grill me on such-and-such?”
With all due respect to the feelings of those above, I think we have to ask ourselves: Do we want folks who disagree with us to be invited here or not? If the answer is yes, we have to treat them with respect. We all know it is possible to ask a pointed question or express a strong opinion without insulting a guest.
We all know the difference between “I feel totally betrayed by Obama” and “Obama is an asshole and a traitor.” While, at a given moment, we all may be tempted to write the latter, it really doesn’t accomplish any more than the former. As one who has often used the latter, I think it is a mistake in a FDL Book Salon. It poisons the Salon for many FDLers who agree with the underlying sentiment but deplore the manner in which it is stated.
Just my two cents. YMMV
5 comments were censored on a thread I was on 3 days ago.
All from different members.
Well put, and I agree.
Peg, It really was pulled as Scarecrow mentioned at 32…!
To add to this:
Passive aggressive insults, when semi-cleverly disguised, are also way way more satisfying than outright profanity and obvious insults. :D
I can appreciate the tight-rope act to a certain extent. But my fear is, playing nice means you never convey the real extent of the anger. Check that; FURY would be a better word for lots of us.
I didn’t call Van Jones a sack of shit until after he had left the salon AND after he had deliberately ducked three direct, politely worded but stern questions. I didn’t call him a coward, which I wanted to. I didn’t call him a liar and a hypocrite, which he is.
We can’t complain that important people like in a Beltway Bubble and then not take every opportunity to puncture that bubble with the sharpest objects (words) we can lay our hands on.
Should be “live” in a Beltway Bubble.
Mahalo, econobuzz…! My very same sentiments…! *g*
You know, sometimes what a guest does is so glaringly obvious that it speaks for itself, and some are definitely more comfortable in the scramble than others. I think politeness is good but disagreement well phrased can really be telling. We have the opportunity to put something on record if we disagree. That’s precious, and we should. But there are ways and ways. Think of disagreeing with your old mum; it’s better to do that with respect. And imagine how it feels; your book is your baby and you’re out there facing – us?
That’s gotta be worth something.
Much respect EB but I disagree.
We all come here and without hesitation express our opinions and feelings about all issues.
When a person cannot explain the contradictions of their actions and cannot and will not defend themsleves or debate the subject matter or even worse they try to hide in plain sight… then something is wrong… and THAT wrongness needs to be exposed.
I wasn’t totally joking when I said that passive aggressiveness is better. And the time delay with writing on the internet can give one time to word stuff Just. So.
This is distinctly different from TV, which requires a very immediate response. And the more subtle stuff will read like comedy for years to come.
Once I commented on a Salon that was about a climate partial solution. I’m a climate science crusader, so my reaction was to point out what was wrong with the science on display in the article. The answer defended, from the book I guess, but that again got a non-scientific answer, deceptive and misleading.
I was soon being dismissed as a distraction and ignored. So, I was wrong to try to bring the scientific test to an article that was presenting hopeful (but incomplete) science.
I understand the guest not wanting to go through that, as this is happening in real time, and other parts of the book could be discussed. (Hopefully, accurate parts.)
Yeah, but you don’t have to be over the top obviously offensive to get there. people in the know will know what you mean, and the true believers won’t get you no matter what at that phase.
I would add that, I do appreciate the wide diversity of views that the Book Salons have brought to the Lake, we do need to be civil in agreeing to disagree with them…! ;-)
I’d be interested in your take on people who pretend to agree with us. (When I say “pretend”, you just read the word “lie”.) I’m not worried about Boehner or Ryan or Mitt or Rove or Hannity. I’m worried about Van Jones, Dick Durbin, Nancy Pelosi, Sherrod Brown, MoveOn, Richard Trumka, Leo Gerard, Robert Kuttner, Robert Reich, Tweety, Ed Schultz, Lawrence O’Donnell, Rachel Maddow, Bill Press, Stephanie Miller, Thom Fartmann, etc., who make a great living lying to us about being “on our side”.
I think you have to take into consideration that folks reading the discussion at a Book Salon can clearly see that when a guest is unable to explain contradictions and/or is ducking (or overwhelmed by) challenging questions. Regarding the Salon in question, I clearly saw both were true. And, probably like you, I felt like writing “You didn’t answer the fucking question.” But I’m not sure that accomplishes anything. YMMV.
I agree it was somewhat aggravating. But look what happened with Greg Palast – he asked two questions and was completely ignored. I have a feeling he probably was somewhat amused, and I personally thought that situation was delightful.
See, here’s the thing; This stuff gets lost all the time. This website redirects to the wrong page sometimes when you comment. It’s happened to me. It’s happened when I’m describing Kuroneko’s antics on the Caturday threads. I have no doubt Wendy’s diary disappeared for a while. What I do doubt is that it was in any way intentional. At least given the evidence of innocuous stuff vanishing mysteriously and resurfacing later, (sometimes much later), I’m not going to jump to censorship conclusions. Anybody who has not lost an innocuous comment or been mistakenly redirected, please speak up so I can call you a lucky bastard! ;)
You want hypocrisy? You want misleading?
Isn’t it true that FDL aka Firedoglake dot com was founded as a “foulmouthed feminist blog”?
I’m not sure it’s always that black and white. What if they (some listed) think they agree with us, but they’re kind of in denial/self deluded/salaries depend on denial/etc?
Even Jones is different from, say, Clinton, and further to the left, Bill Black is not like Van Jones. (Bill just seems to me to be totally in denial but not at all serving the corporate class.)
I guess this goes back to the discussions we used to have about Dem Pod People. “All Pods are equal, but some are more equal than others.” lol.
What was the reason my comment disappeared??
If FDL wants OldFatGuy gone, all they had to do was ask.
Van Jones DID act like an asshole at NN, and if we can’t call out assholes for being assholes anymore, then this place has really changed.
Has anyone asked anyone at FDL?
(Has anyone been able to find someone at FDL to ask?)
…I’d be interested in your take on people who pretend to agree with us.
*heh* Oppo Research, BP…? ;-)
You’re right about the technical snafus, but it’s also true that Scarecrow came out and admitted that the post had been taken down due to content.
Now, if we have a tech problem that interferes with us hearing about Kuroneko’s antics, then that’s something that needs to get fixed, PRONTO. We need to acknowledge the importance of Kuroneko and all the other kittehs in the greater order of things. (This is not snark. Caturday keeps a lot of us sane.)
Here’s what I think is the issue. In Salons, I have become much more interested in what fellow FDLers — who agree with me — think of the way I express myself. Even more so than the guest does — because the guest really doesn’t know who I am or give a big rat’s ass about my opinion. When I as a question of a guest, I am representing FDL. And that tempers my language. Now lest you think I am acting superior, it took me a while to learn that. The hard way.
I will STFU now.
Scarecrow responded in Comment #32
See Scarecrow’s response at 32…!
FDL was founded a long time ago, and from what I’ve seen, was MUCH MUCH more pro-dem just a few years ago. Even here at my.fdl.
Times change, and FDL is still the spot of freeist speech for lefties.
NormanB asked “Well, now, please, friends, let’s discuss how we should treat guests”.
Why not like a tv or radio show one doesn’t care for? Change the channel !
If someone invites an objectionable character like Van Jones, don’t participate in the book salon or whatever the vehicle used as a podium. Don’t you think lack of participation sends a much larger message to those ‘in charge’ than ranting and raving on a ‘guest’?
Those that are muslims know what the qu’ran says about treatment of guests; such is also similarly addressed in Xtianity and Judaism. Now I’m not a follower of any of those religions but civility towards those who are objectionable is just good manners; or is that an outdated concept?
In any event, next time someone that’s part of the Veal Pen is invited, just tune out the program. Sooner or later those who invited such people will get the message.
My sentiments exactly, athena. In a diary, no holds barred for argument (okay, within reason.) But that Salon – it’s a fragment of history. It’s a bit like – tennis is one game, fencing is another. What’s the term? Touche’ – that’s what you are after at the Salon.
I admit I haven’t been through the comments and didn’t know that Scarecrow had acknowledged it. I should read more carefully. Please return to your outrage. :)
I agree. It is entirely possible to criticize, even in withering and brutal fashion, without evincing spittle flecked rage. In fact criticisms that are enunciated civilly if not politely can cut much deeper than the usual emotionally stunted rage-nerding. Essentially, name calling is poor rhetoric and inarticulate and almost inevitably draws down the discussion to empty pointless exchanges of ad hominems. Which are childish and boring. So fucking boring.
Sorry, just caught up with Scarecrow’s reply…
… which, in itself, didn’t make me feel much better…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firedoglake
I’m mainly outraged by the idea that I might be missing out on stories about Kuroneko.
Then be at ease. All she does is sleep in the summer.
I respectfully disagree. If lots of us tune out, then the harsh message never gets delivered and all that’s left is polite pablum. And as for the timing of message delivery (or receipt) I’d much prefer that these loathesome assholes get the message sooner. Much sooner. Like right now.
But boy, is she a sleek kitty, or what. Great coat on her. I also like the stories about her sitting patiently while the birds tease her, right up until…oops, snack time!
*heh* ‘You’ve come a long way, Baby’…! ;-)
Dear Wendy,
Re-reading the threat makes it appear to me as though I might very well be responsible for it being taken down.
I apologize to you for that.
It’s apparent to me that FDL no longer wants me posting here as I will not, and freely admit, will not, respect those that harm others. If someone entered my home, I would gladly treat them with respect, but if they then take out a club and hit a member of my family with it, I’m NOT going to say “Please, sir, that’s dangerous and could result in injury, possibly even death, so please stop now, OK”
If you want to know why the right wing wins all the time, this is one of the big reasons why. Because they DON’T respect their enemies, and progressives, for whatever reason, believe that everyone and every view should be treated with respect.
Sorry, I’m not EVER going there. The thought that 45,000 Americans die every year as a direct result of our CHOICES on what kind of health care system to provide is akin to 15 9/11′s every year.
Yet I’m supposed to respect those that support policies that result in that????
So long FDL, I am sorry for whatever discomfort I may have caused, but I’m not sorry for speaking my mind. We are in a WAR, and it is just plain STUPID to treat enemies who literally may be responsible for your and/or a family members death with more than the absolute bottom rung of respect just for being human. Yes, they deserve that, but that’s IT.
Wonder if this is how Hitler was allowed to continue up the ranks.
Good bye all.
Outrage notwithstanding, every reply to you was both civil and pleasant. ;o)
OFG, I hope you’ll stay.
That Wiki entry needs some serious updating…!
That’s the problem. What Van Jones got from me, Greg Palast, thatvisionthing, and several others were direct challenges to statements he’d made, either in the book or in his responses to questions at the Salon. He ducked or flat out ignored most of them, and the few he did respond to, he used non-responsive platitudes.
Hell, you don’t think Greg Palast knows how to properly ask a fellow author and political figure a question?
My feeling is, you wanna come in here and peddle your shit, you better bring lotsa toilet paper ‘cuz you’re gonna have some cleaning up to do.
Ok, but I do think you’re making a presumption that they care what others -like those at FDL- think; they’re here to propagate their ‘message’.
I half disagree with you. I love it that the Jones’ and Clintons still come here to hawk their bullshit. But I still think it’s more effective to be subtle.
And also as a self-check…if you can’t be subtle and still drive a steak in their argument’s heart, your argument must not have been that great to begin with. (And FWIW, I saw your questions being ignored, as well as the relevant questions of others.)
I didn’t fail to notice that.
Have at it.
You get your fucking ass back here, OFG.
OFG, get your fat ass back here, NOW!
The overwhelmingly majority of commenters here don’t just like you and agree with you, we adore you, you cranky old truth-teller!
You gots a choice: you can come back here the easy way, or I can come over and “convince” you, but I don’t think you’d like that.
Unfortunately for her, the bluejays seem to have finally learned their lesson and there isn’t even one living on this side of the building this year. :(
Please, please reconsider, ofg!
omg!
You’re one of my favorite people here and are invaluable as an insightful resource to us youngins!
:(
We’ll find your house and plaster Romney posters all over it!
On the other hand, there are several unexplained mockingbird feathers lying around. Maybe they were a bit too good at imitating the bluejays…
Yeah! Imma gonna send him over there, or something!
But really, please please don’t leave. For serious. :(
That wikinfo appears to be written in British or Canadian English.
YKMV
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is rude and offensive.
Please, OFG. Don’t assume it was your words; my one comment was moderated, too. Others may have been as well.
If you leave, this place will be far poorer for it, and I know others (wbgonne for one) have left for similar reasons. When I look back at my posts from six months ago or more, many had 150-200 good comments. When I scan through them and the names attached to them, I’m often saddened to see how many have departed, and I assume, mostly on their own.
That you understand this as a war for our democracy and for the well-being of our people, and I’d add ‘our planet’ and more, like so many of us here, I’d urge you please reconsider. Don’t make us beg; I’d hate that. ;o)
Please. All my best,
wd
No way, OFG, no way. I haven’t read your comment, but on a diary when I see stuff that gives me the willies, I scroll. And sometimes outrage has to come out – let the post go, let it come forth (she says without knowing whereof she speaks). At the very least it is an honest, diverse, from the gut expression, and you are correct, the bottom line is blood and death and conviction and pure, straight from the heart outrage.
We need you.
Elsewise, how can I make a pun on Obama For America – Old Fat America? It just won’t have that zing.
I believe it has always been true that commenters are not allowed to call posters/guests an “asshole,” even if the description seemed to fit.
As for your presence, I’m in favor of keeping around people who, one of these days, may be just the sort we need who can recognize a real asshole. You never know what talents will come in handy.
But that’s sorta the point of this, isn’t it? We have people here who are brilliant at taking down the crazies on the “other side” but from where they are, it doesn’t seem that “both sides” are the same. I value those people, because that’s a nasty chore dealing with crazies, and it needs to be done.
At the same time, we have people here who see the hypocrisy and corruption of people “we” once might have thought of as allies, or on the same side, but the closer you look, the more disillusioned you get. I value their ability to see and point out these things.
And in between, I see incredible variations and differences along multiple continua, all sorta leaning in the same direction, but not necessarily agreeing on everything.
So I’m seeing people who are performing valuable work but who when confronting each other, disagree and who might rather shoot each other than talk. Not helpful. I’d prefer to have them all pointed in another direction, because there’s enough nutty/greedy/bad out there from a variety of perspectives to take on, and I’m pretty sure “we” are outnumbered.
There’s an unspoken assumption in some threads that there’s a clearly definable “we” here; and “we” all agree about who “they” are and what “we” believe. I don’t believe that. But it’s valuable to have all of you all sorta over on “this side,” willing to talk it through.
I saw all his posts, I think, and it wasn’t very extreme at all. It was just calling Jones an asshole and suspecting he’d soon be banned for saying so, iirc, or something later but on par with that.
OFG, *I* *AM* Begging! No shame here, I’m begging. Please don’t leave.
Though I’m not very happy with Scarecrow’s explanation either, I don’t think it was the “truth” that was the concern. I do think that if it takes “too much energy to monitor just one comment section”, that should be addressed somehow. But I don;t think it’s worth leaving over…yet. I remember when I left Americablog because Aravosis was unprincipled and capricious. I like to think this place is better than that one.
Wait until you and all your diaries are disappeared, and the only thing remaining is a page that says that Margaret decided to delete all her diaries.
Scarecrow, Van freakin’ Jones was neither a poster nor a guest when OFG made that comment!
Which is kind of a major point wrt FDL “censorship”, in my honestly humble opinion. They (book guests) really aren’t normal members of the my/fdl community and literally don’t care enough to even *read* here.
I don’t know anyone who wants you to leave. So don’t.
I’ve all but quit this place (as you seem to know), and I’m ambivalent about letting my upgraded membership continue come auto-renewal time. If, say, the mods remove a post of Jon W’s, I’d never even notice. (Jon called me insane in public here, but I figure he had a tab lapse and thought he was replying at Wonkette.) But deleting one of your posts means they’ll do it again to someone, or it’s wicked chilling at any rate.
Anybody got contact info for OFG? Email addy, phone, snail mail? If so, let him know that he can’t leave. We won’t let him!
Sometimes, Wendy, a being just gets mad as hell and is not going to take it anymore. Congratulations on becoming barefoot in the head. Van Jones and Robert Reich embody the very substance of what is wrong with the professional left. JUDAS.
Gotta go read Wendy’s diary! Thanks, Scarecrow.
Who gave the order to delete the wendydavis diary?
Mahalo, John…
…There’s an unspoken assumption in some threads that there’s a clearly definable “we” here; and “we” all agree about who “they” are and what “we” believe. I don’t believe that. But it’s valuable to have all of you all sorta over on “this side,” willing to talk it through.
Civilly, like one human being to another…! *g*
I’m not worried. If that happens then I’ll be gone. If that happens, why would I want to be associated with such a forum? I can’t spare any angst over moderators’ judgement calls. I said I wasn’t happy with the explanation and if difficulty monitoring is truly the case, it should be addressed. If it turns out to be something more nefarious, then I’ll wait until I see the evidence and also make that call for myself. I’ve got a lot of time and passion invested in this community but I’ve never been one to impose myself where I’m not welcome. If somebody boots me, I’ll get outraged then but I’m not going to waste time pleading my case. I know because it’s happened before. Not here but it has happened to me before.
OldFatGuy,
Please stay.
…I’ve got a lot of time and passion invested in this community but I’ve never been one to impose myself where I’m not welcome…
X2, M’dear…!
HaHA! Ditto.
And OldFatGuy:
It would take a long time for Mason and I with our old, creaky bones…but push comes to shove, we’d hunt you down and drag you back, if Beach doesn’t get there first!
I’ll add my voice asking OFG to stay. You’re too good a man and too passionate a person to leave. I don’t know how much time you spend on other websites but trust me, this one is the most tolerant I’ve found that still maintains a good focus.
sorta like herding cats, isn’t it? :->) Maybe SD needs to be called in when commenting gets to a point that it’s becoming a ‘mess’.
Given you use ‘old’ in your handle and others indicate you’re an intelligent person, why not use the wisdom and knowledge that comes with age and instead of pointing out that someone is an asshole -like Jones- simply call them a herniated rectum. Shakespeare was really good at insults and you might find some of his useful for your purposes.
I’m absolutely certain there are people with better people skills than I have, and SD is one of them.
Thou ruttish motley-minded miscreant!
;0)
(just testing out the censors…)
And Van Jones is but a qualling dread-bolted foot-licker!
In my whole history on the internet, I don’t recall ever seeing this sort of support of a flaming out member.
And the circumstances are sorta dubious still. I think FDL upper management should maybe consider a 12 hour or 24 hour rule wrt discussing book salon members or something? Honestly, I just think some mod somewhere was just trigger happy and could just apologize and everything would be fine? Or something? A mistake was made, tho, I think. Or rather, in active voice, some of you made mistakes.
And you can easily fix those mistakes with simple apologies (and if you think members never deserve apologies from mods, I doubt your internet experience)
Has anyone commented that the previous one is back? I haven’t read the whole thread here…just some.
I agree. If there is special appropriate etiquette, I’d like to know it.
I’m not a conspiracy type but I think that Wendy and Scarecrow may be working together to use the old trick of temporarily disappearing her posts to artificially increase comments.
I agree more or less. Usually, if the person on duty isn’t certain there is/will be a problem, they can ask for help — another opinion — and they did. At the time, I wasn’t able to get to it right away, so the duty person just pulled it back till I/others could check. Once we checked, we agreed there wasn’t a problem, so I left the comment and we released the post.
So yes, we’ll make mistakes, and I’m sorry about this one; Wendy didn’t deserve it. We’ll try to deal with these things in good faith.
Thanks for the suggestion.
*Snort* Slow news-cycle and all, eh…? ;-)
Censorship… is the Enemy of the truth…
And it’s the Enemy of the American people.
As I said before:
We maybe should discuss treatment of Book Salon guests from various standpoints:
~Investigative Journalism
~Hospitality
The guest might expect one and not the other. Maybe that is what is being offered: The author’s perspective on the work.
The Investigative Journalist in me wants to go after him.
But think about it this way:
You’re on live radio, hypothetically, trying to make a point about a Congressman’s record. (It’s a call-in show in a city with under 1,000,000.) As you try to make you’re point, the Congressman keeps calling to correct your wording. The third or fourth time the host hands you the phone from the Congressman, you might respectfully refuse to take it.
That may be the type of real-time dilemma the authors see themselves in.
Well, I’m one of the only people on the whole internet who agrees totally with their cumulative opinions, then! lol
Really, I think some mod/admin here was just trigger happy with Wendy’s post-Van thread, and decided to pre-emptively pull the thread/comments. Which SUCKS, and I NEVER expect to happen here ever again.
Dammit, OFG! I’ve been pestering you for months to friend me. You finally do, and then you leave???
That is so wrong :(
ohmmmm
This is about Wendy’s diary…
But it’s actually about way more than that.
It’s about EVERYTHING thats been going on here.
Censorship is terrible… it’s an abomination… it’s evil
Cool (for real).
If the mod in question has access to ofg’s email, I think a personal apology might be in order, too. Because dissing pro politicians is ALWAYS ok at fdl, afaik.
Also, if my.fdl members can send a cumulative message to ofg?
:”We love you and want you back and are on your side – athena (and everyone else who wants to sign…I don’t want to be the first on the list…?)”
I’m not buying any of that.
Me too.
Well, I hope the lake ain’t breaking down. As a major admirer of free speech, I really expect that here.
BeachPopulist is right. As the campaign season heats up, many of us here, myself included of course, aren’t gonna put up with the bullshit coming from the obama supporters I just know we are gonna be inundated with. If the people who are willing to call us sanctimonious, retarded fucking liberals, etc, publicly, they should be able to deal with our harsh retort.
Oh, wendy, glad you’re still here. I was concerned when I fist saw this thread.
When you put someone in the exalted position of being above questioning or above doubt…
Then you insult your readers… you put them in the position of being forced to sit quietly and accept the exalted one’s lies without question… without counterpoint… without examination… and worst of all… without a voice.
Back in the day, mods actively insinuated themselves regularly, like hall monitors in school, with their tildes and bold italics, especially to warn commenters about attacking fellow commenters instead of the content of the comment. I don’t know if those mods were volunteers or were paid, but they’ve disappeared.
OldFatGuy… please dont go.
We need you here.
When I saw wrong there I questioned it, but my questioning it was perceived as wrong. That’s one reason why I’m making guesses at the editorial decisions.
Whoa, whoa.
Jeebus, I am sorry, I didn’t mean to become a topic of conversation, I hope that will end now.
Please folks, please understand that if FDL wants someone gone, gone they are. This website is theirs to do whatever they want. And I understand that and respect that. Please, I hope all of you will too.
That said, I apologize for the mess this thread turned into. Dammit, I feel like I’ve ruined two threads, Wendy’s and this one. I won’t leave now then, OK?? But if it really feels like (and it sorta did in Wendy’s thread) that FDL would rather me gone, than gone I am. And it’s NOT A BIG DEAL, so please let’s not make it one, OK?? At the end of the day, this is Jane’s site, and her and those she’s delegated authority too have every right to decide if someone isn’t welcome anymore.
I fully expect to become unwelcome here, because I do so strenuously disagree with the premise that I’m supposed to treat every other viewpoint with respect. Because I don’t. Hitler’s veiwpoints on the world were WRONG. So is this country’s right wing. And so is anyone’s that’s in any way aiding that agenda.
I suspect Jane et al here would rather have everyone act is if every viewpoint is a valid viewpoint to debate, and because I disagree with that, then it’s perfectly reasonable that I don’t fit here. So if it comes to that, please let’s not make a big deal out of it, OK???
Dear Gawd.
Glad to see Wendy has been “allowed” back. Disgusted that she needs to be “allowed” in the first place.
Just so that you all now. I have a Peabody Award winning journalist ( a real journalist, not some corpo-pseudo journalist) who is helping me, right now to write a book. She asked me to let her work with me after she read my FDL article “Censorship- A Liberal Value.”
Glad you are still here Wendy. Do any know if storyofo is still around and what happened to Robert Dumass?
And you think you’re not a ‘conspiracy type’, lol? Whoosh; hope that’s just you bein’ funny.
Thank you kindly for that, Scarecrow.
Thanks for staying. I really dinna wanna hava use a bunch of my frequent flier miles just to go transcon from my place to yours!
How about this: you keep speaking your mind, we’ll keep applauding your comments, and none of us will worry if it bothers any of the powers that be? Deal?
Obey, Hab SoSlI’ Quch!
(Klingon for ‘your mother had a smooth forehead’; use it judiciously.)
There u go !!!
I regret Jon called you that, AitchD; I’ve always thought you were as sane as the next Firedog; admittedly not the highest bar on the planet, but still… ;o)
So glad you’ve come back; I look forward to your creative comments.
Jon has nothing to do with my disaffection, the incident happened many many months ago, and I only recalled it bc he’s a suit, meaning I guess IOKIYAS to insult a commoner. (He called me insane for correcting him about the parliamentary rules of Congress’s houses and the Constitution’s meaning of ‘majority’ — the thread was about his displeasure with the Senate’s filibuster/cloture practice.)
I came to Casablanca for the waters.
The waters? What waters? We’re in the desert.
I was misinformed.
Right, so how come at the end with no rain in any scene, Rick and Louie are splashing through ankle-deep water on their way to a beautiful friendship?
And because I got the “juice,” I can close out this diary. And don’t look at my other hand and where the mezcal is holding properly.
My Big Thanks! to All who responded, and in particular, to Wendy and to Scarecrow for “checking it out” and for taking the time to “explain.”
Good night to all.
Jaango
I have not been aware of FDL/MyFDL back stage doings that squelch criticism of Obama, Shilary, The Dims, and politicians in general.
Most of us firebaggers are well aware of Kuch, Bernie Sanders, Grayson and all of them SELLING OUT on one issue or another.
Most of us, and the site owner and paid and volunteer staff know these things.
Why would any of them want to squelch discussion of how bad our systems are corrupted, paid for, and owned and operated by the corporate fascist 1%?
Now, regarding Dumas, Cavlan, et al, most of them ran their mouths about things that were none of their business, trashed the owner and staff and more . . . trying to usurp the site and push whatever agenda they had.
I’m delighted, recently, that at least three of them have learnt to play nice and post coherently and without malice for the site or it’s staff or members . . . . well, except for malice towards trolls, but THEY are fair game to ANYONE! *G*
So, I don’t really GET This paranoia going on.
Until Scarecrow@32 stepped in.
SC, what in DAWGS fucking name did ANYONE at FDL/MyFDL see as a threat in the comments section of Wendy’s thread?
Let the dogs growl, people, it USED to be one of the charms of this site one could let loose against idiocy and lunacy, you know, like support for corporate fascists like Shilary, and now Obama, DIMS posing as libs but in actuality completely owned and operated by and for the benefit of the few while they screw the many.
Now YOU people on staff or volunteers are worried about comments going off mean wise?
Who’s RUNNING this show, anyways? This is lunacy SC.
Let the dogs bark and growl!
If it’s closing time, I’ll add this, jaango. Thank you so much, and all others here who supported not just my post, but were so willing to engage in the wider discussion. Let it be that we’ve all learned a bit as we head into the hard days that we know are comin’.
Well, even here in the desert it rains sometimes, and then Whoosh! the flowers bloom, the frogs mature from eggs…speeded-up life cycles.
Good night, my friend.
OMG!
You wouldn’t even believe how stupid I was the whole time with that.
All I had to do (yet it took my nephew to show me even then THANKS STEVEN!) was click on another tab and then just click on accept friendship request.
All of the times before that I never saw that screen. Yet it was right there the whole time. I mean, RU kidding me??? I’ll gladly accept ALL FIREPUPS as friends, in fact, thats what I considered all of you.
Still sorry for this mess though. I should’ve just not commented in this thread or Wendy’s I suppose.
But I am truly HONORED to have any and all Firepups as friends. It just took me a while to learn what others learn in, oh, I dunno, 10 seconds??? LOL. Yeah, I’m a moran too.
Had missed your comment here up until now . . .
Interesting.
Thanks for the details . . . I don’t recall these things happening in the past, so I expect something has changed.
Editors/mods at MyFDL certainly have turned over a lot in the past two years . . . that’s not good, either.
I guess, change is inevitable and this is the change we need to deal with.
I DO appreciate you explaining things . . . that’s a good thing, hope IT does not change.
Now, onto bashing pseudo proggy’s and DIMS galore!
N the other guys, too, all of them little piggies with their forks n knives . . . it IS a class war, full tilt boogie on the run in progress.
The masses need their bacon.
Late to the post….so, it’s kind of okay, right?
In a ” We’ll talk in the morning kind of way?”.
Sweet dreams, all.
ROTFLOL!!
;0)
NuqneH, Obi-wan.
MamI’ DaneH?/nItebHa’ mamI’ DaneH? LupDujHomwIj lubuy’moH gharghmey.
Stick around, OFG, we need your voice here on the right side of the argument. ((OFG))
Hey, wd–
Also missed this kerfuffle. Goes without saying that I am relieved to hear that you’ve not “taken a hike,” for whatever reason. Whew! Really had me going earlier!
Will check back in, later. Wish that FDL Editors would consider holding a discussion, defining just what their definition of “civil discourse” is. I have quite a bit to say about that, and would love your feedback later.
For now, got to catch up with fatster, over at the June 18th News Roundup. Got to bring out my “The Moment of Truth” report again to clear up a straw man that corporatist Dems and Republicans put out in business media, etc., to propagandize for Bowles-Simpson.
Hope you feel better now. Got to be a great feeling to know that you are enormously liked, appreciated, and respected here. Go girl.
Blue
Apologize for typos, in advance. So pushed today, can’t be too concerned, and get my say.
OFG–
Don’t believe that we’ve ever talked, directly. But appreciate both your direct style and keen observations. Very happy that you decided to stay. You are one of the most articulate commenters here–sure don’t need to lose you.
Blue
rc–
I’m sure that everyone here will keep you and gf, and especially “Miss Molly” in their thoughts. (We had our own “Mollie,” a miniature Schnauzer for almost 16 years. I often use part of her registered name for my handle–Music City Mollie–we got her in Nashville, of course.)
Godspeed to all.
Blue
Thanks, Blue. Love and hugs to you. ;-)
Yes, openhope; I think we’re all fine, and better for all this (she said with hope). It won’t negate further conversations, but for today, all did a good job resolving it.
Jaango was awesome to put up this post.
x2
Jaango…
Salute..!
Thanks for this post.
I don’t know, either — considering that the person or persons running MyFDL right now likes to promote to the front page diaries by Undisciplined PhD, who makes Wendy look like a liberal, I have a hard time seeing this as being intentional.
—- “Its only June” LMAO, ya mean its going to get better than this? lol =)