To the pissed off progressives over here: Don’t be Naderites. It’s a losing political strategy.
Our country has what’s called a "plurality" voting system. It means the first candidate to get 50% of the vote, or the candidate that gets the most votes in an election, wins. This kind of system discourages third parties by punishing people who abstain from voting or who vote for third parties. To be clear, in a plurality voting system, if you don’t vote or if you vote for a third party, you are actually helping the candidate you least want to see in office, because in a plurality voting system it’s a zero sum game. One man, one vote, so if you don’t use it, you’re helping your opponent.
Not all voting systems are like this. Systems of proportional representation allow for third party representation even if the third party doesn’t win a plurality of the vote. Systems of voting like Range Voting or Instant Runoff Voting allow people to vote their conscience (say, for a third party) without helping the opposite mainstream candidate.
However, America does not have these kinds of systems. There can be two logical reactions to this reality.
First, you can agitate to change the voting system. It’s a long road towards a voting system that better represents the will of the American people instead of shoehorning them into voting for the lesser of two evils, but it’s a worthy fight and you’d find a lot of support.
Second, you can work to change the party from the inside. That means primary challenges, organizing powerful groups within the parties, taking over party infrastructure – you know, all that Crashing the Gate stuff.
But not voting or voting for a third party because you’re not getting what you want is politically infantile. It’s the equivalent of a spurned child crying out, "I’m taking my toys and going home!" It might feel good, but it doesn’t actually help you achieve your goals, because you’re helping the people you least support. There has been no instance I can think of – not one – where a purer faction of a party sent a message to the party establishment by voting third party and the party establishment listened. Not one. Though there are plenty of examples to the contrary, the Tea Party’s failed run at NY-23 being only the most recent.
The people who voted for Nader in 2000 sent the country backwards and didn’t help reform the Democratic party. By contrast, Howard Dean and his followers mounted a powerful primary challenge and then proceeded to take over large parts of party infrastructure and create real change. It’s a lesson on how to do things, and how not to do them.
I don’t disagree with the basic premise that corporate Democrats should be challenged, especially for the way the health care debate has played out. But it’s important to find a constructive target and mode of action. Who’s really to blame for the health care debate? Is it people like Tom Harkin, who stood up for principles but ultimately had no support from leadership? Or is it people like Ben Nelson, Joe Lieberman, and President Obama, who watered down health care in the former instance and refused to fight in the latter?
If you want to send a message to centrist Democrats in the Senate, not electing more liberal people (as Coakley is – she might not be Bernie Sanders but she’s not Joe Lieberman) is not the way, as it’s probably something Nelson and Lieberman would applaud. If you want to send a message to the White House, there are direct ways to do that. Taking away the 60th seat in the Senate, as useless as it seems, will only make the administration compromise more, as they’ll now want a Republican on board for everything. (Yes, we need to reform the Senate, but we’re not there yet, the campaign still needs to be run and groundwork be laid. Taking away the 60th seat in this environment leads to more compromise, not Senate reform.)
I know some people won’t like this advice. So be it. Still, folks should find a good target and make an example within the party. Folks should organize and takeover, not disorganize and take down. It’s harder to do, and it requires more thought then yelling and screaming, but it’ll actually get what you want done. If you put your energy into these things, you’d make a lot of difference.
Being self-defeating because it feels good isn’t going to get anything accomplished. Though it’ll sure feel good, and I guess that’s what politics is about for some people.



851 Comments







And it’s not as if the folks in the beltway aren’t looking for excuses to move to the right anyway.
Seriously.
We’re going to have less than 60 votes in the Senate come 2010 anyway, it’s just the basic math. Building the groundwork now for filibuster reform would be a constructive way to make sure it happens in 2011.
Directive to all Mass. Democrats.
Fuck the interests of the Democratic party corporate/establishment elite! A Coakley loss would be good for the nation. It would mean going to reconciliation down the stretch on Health Care, etc. The kabuki theater would mercifully end. If there is a God, he would vote for Brown.
Be a true progressive! Vote For Brown
Subsversive Democratic Progressives For Brown Movement
Looks like you are on the side of wall street:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/34880003
Screw the Democrats. If they want to get elected, they know how to get progressive votes. It’s as simple as that.
Spot on Jason. Until and unless the system is changed we have to work within its constraints. There is a need to limit damage and the idea that Dems are the same as Republicans in the way they govern is demonstrably false.
Another way to change the Democratic party would be to let Obama see how far he can get with his bipartisanship. Stay home and let health care fail. It’s a lousy bill that achieves none of the progressives’ goals. Maybe he would change (pun intended) his weak leadership and start knocking the bluedogs into line. That’s what the Republicans do and that’s why they are so successful with their minority position. Dance with the one who brung ya or leave the dance. The left has worked a generation for this opportunity and Obama has squandered it on some cockamamie theory of “getting along.” Both theories of third parties or voting out the blue dogs won’t work and will take another generation. Change now and let Obama see what his policy of disrespecting the left will get him– nowhere, which is where we are.
Why yes Jason, it is. Last I checked Dems needed 60 votes for cloture. Landrieu, Lieberman, Nelson, and Lincoln threatened to withhold their votes for cloture, thereby extorting concessions on the bill. You claim that Harkin and his fellow “progressives”:
How’s that do you figure? Not one of them, not Harkin, not Feingold, not Brown, not Sanders (well, maybe Sanders since he got some crumbs thrown his way), threatened to vote against cloture, thereby getting nothing for their progressive constituents. That is hardly standing up for principles.
Right, the way to respond when Conservadems sack bills is to turn around and shoot liberals. That sound like a great way to get something done, because I’m sure Ben Nelson really wants to see his liberal colleagues take back their seats over Republicans. Wait….maybe not….
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit is it?
You said that the people who should be held accountable for the health care debate are the liberals. I’m not sure how I’m misreading.
Because they did not use the power in their possession to make the bill better. You seem to think that only Republicans and conservative Democrats have any power to wield in the Senate. This is not true. I’ll grant you that moderate Dems (I refuse to call them progressive) do not wield any power, but that is through their own actions or lack thereof. They are not powerless. And that is why they are at fault. They don’t fight back. They never fight back. So they get rolled over and over and over again and the public gets screwed.
So, again, if Conservadems water down legislation, we should shoot the progressives. That is indeed what you want.
Jason, why do you think your progressives are blameless here? You keep referring to a health care debate. There was no debate. One side never showed up. The lobbyists and WH got the bill they wrote in the spring. I genuinely do not understand how you view the “progressives” as having lifted a finger to do their part in any of this. So yes, it is their fault. There was no compromise, because there was no debate, only capitulation to a foregone conclusion.
The point he is making is that you need more progressives not less if you want them to be more effective. If you withhold your votes on them, then you are moving away from where the change you want to have happen is.
But what exactly do you expect them to do? Scuttle reform, do what the Chamber of Commerce (with AHIP money) as been braying for and start from scratch?
The Conservadem Senators can hold up reform and get the changes they want because the choice is the status quo. Progressives know the status quo is horrible so they can’t make that choice.
Coakley is not a progressive. She is DLC through and through. So voting for her does not increase our progressive representation at all.
Not scuttle reform, just this bill, which I would not characterize as “reform” of any kind, just another government mediated transfer of wealth from the public to our modern corporate robber barons.
The Senate bill is worse than the status quo, and with the capitulation of labor, I have zero confidence that the final form the bill takes will be an improvement over the status quo.
Maybe if I’m lucky and Coakley is defeated on Tuesday, that will strengthen the hand of House leadership to press for more progressive changes in the final bill so that they do not face similar consequences themselves in November. Wouldn’t that be better for all of us?
I guess what I don’t get with those of you supporting the status quo, is that it seems obvious to me that we have no choice but to use hardball tactics, because asking nicely is getting us nowhere.
Like it or not, we are all trying to get to the same place, we just differ on which route is the most efficient.
First off I disagree. That bill is not worse than the status quo. As for wanting to get to the same place, we are on the same page there. It is how we go about. A vote revolt does not have a high chance of working. It is too hard to sustian and as I pointed out to TheCallUp it leaves us in the hands of the Republicans for a long, long time.
Given those two factors, I am with Jason, lets work the system we have, lets get in and take over the local party structure. That gives us a wedge with pols since there is money there. Lets start a campaign to change the filibuster rules and lets primary the shit out any and all Dems that don’t live up to the name.
These are all require hard work, but they have a greater chance of achieving the goal than a haphazard vote revolt, and they have the benefit of not leaving the field to the Republicans until we get our shit together.
The point that many here are trying to make is that it is the Democrats who need to get their shit together. We do not owe them our vote. If they want it, they need to work for it and give an affirmative reason why we should vote for them. All of this lesser of two evils has produced worse not better Democrats. Anymore it has become a distinction without a difference. Republicans nominate reactionary judges and Democrats slash Medicare. Both are equally corporatist. So these protestations that there really is a difference seem to be based mostly on wishful thinking and nostalgia.
Well here we will have to accept our disagreement. For me the two breaking points are the individual mandate and the infringement on women’s access to reproductive health care. I can live without the public option and call this a health insurance reform bill (as opposed to health care reform), but the individual mandate in the absence of a public option is an egregious abuse of government power that would set a terrible precedent. As for the anti-choice aspects of this bill, I am stunned, truly stunned that it is Democrats who are rolling back women’s rights.
You are missing the point. It is not my intention to return Republicans to power. And in fact, defeating Coakley will not do so. The point is to make a statement that the Dem leadership cannot ignore and to make it at a time when they still have a chance to turn things around before November. That is the whole point of not voting for Coakley.
Your long-term aspirations to remake the party from within are also worthwhile and should continue, but if we don’t do something fast then I do believe the majority of voters will wind up putting Republicans back in charge over the next two election cycles and neither one of us wants that.
No, that’s not true. Progressives could have chosen to hold up the bill like anyone else in Congress.
YOu clearly haven’t been paying attention.
Progressives on the outside have been ineffective. The terrain of the debate was ceded by the decisionmakers, the Democrat decisionmakers, before the contest was joined in public.
“Public Option Please?” pretty please with sugar on top? Kick in the uterus is what we got.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha… Whooey, that was a good one. You’re hilarious…
Honestly, Jason that’s all you’ve got? Really?
Name one progressive Democrat who publicly stated they would withhold their vote for cloture. And then tell me what they got in exchange for their vote. Name just one.
Why is asking progressives to withhold a vote on an issue they have worked their whole career for a good strategy? It’s like saying I’m going to shoot my child if you don’t stop messing with them.
Why not ask progressives to hold up what Ben Nelson or Joe Lieberman holds dear?
See? I knew we could find something we could agree on… Not one progressive Democrat made such a threat. That’s what I thought.
Has anyone asked them to? Is there a campaign around it? Folks don’t just do things, they need support for them to happen. If you’ve got a good target piece of legislation, do tell, and there’s probably organizing to be done around it.
Anyway, if you want to replace some of our liberals with people who are more liberal, you’ll have my support. That’s not what we’re talking about here, as you’re advocating replacing them with Republicans.
Please tell me you are kidding. What on earth do you think we have been doing around here for the last several months? Does the Public Option Whip Count ring a bell? You know, the one where us activists ask our progressive representatives to vote against a bill without a public option. Have you heard of that one?
Or maybe after the Senate killed off the public option, when I called every progressive Senator I could think of to ask what they were doing to get rid of the individual mandate now that the PO was gone, and I got mostly confused silence in response? Might that have counted as asking to you?
You know it is seriously discouraging when I know more about the Senate health care bill than a Senator’s staffer does. It is mystifying that someone like me should have to explain to a befuddled staffer that if the Democrats pass an individual mandate without a public non-profit option available, that the Dems will be committing politcal suicide.
For you to suggest that no one asked progressive Senators (and House representatives) to go to the mat for a better bill is outrageous to the point of being bizarrely delusional.
I get that you are a party loyalist no matter what. I accept that. But for you to suggest that no one asked for better? C’mon Jason, you’re better than that.
The public whip doesn’t apply to the discussion we’re having. I’m saying, progressives should hold hostage something the conservative Democrats really want. The conservatives didn’t want the public option…
How’s that do you figure? We wouldn’t be having this discussion at all if HCR wasn’t a complete train wreck. The only reason Coakley is in trouble is because Dems totally blew off their mandate from the public last year to kiss up to corporations this year. The failure of Dems to live up to their promises or to even try to fight for them is central to the discussion we are having.
I’m talking about my proposal, and you’re response, to the idea that progressives hold conservative legislative vehicles hostage instead of demanding our progressives in Congress kill their own legislation.
This legislation is not progressive and as it currently stands it should be killed as I explained to Bill upthread. If it is passed it will hang around the necks of Dems like the proverbial albatross.
The whole point of the PO whip count was to make sure that there was a credible threat that if the legislation was not progressive enough that it would be defeated by the progressive caucus. That was the entire point of the exercise.
For you now to insist that something be passed no matter what defeats the purpose of trying to get the progressive caucus to toe the line in the first place. Honestly Jason, how are you helping advance progressive goals with this kind of approach? It is ultimately self-defeating.
The progressives are bound to capitulate on HCR, because it appears to be in the very fiber of their being to capitulate. The climate change bill, banking regulation, everything on the progressive agenda is doomed. You have to be willing to accept short-term losses to achieve long-term success. Otherwise progressives will never pose a credible threat to anyone on anything and the conservatives will keep laughing all the way to the bank.
Is it capitulation or compromise?
I understand what you talking about, but in my view it is utopian.
Now, I’m not saying it can’t be changed, but it will take decades and
from the chatter on this post, a revolution.
The 60′s were the revolution for me…. it was good and the war ended
because of protests, and then what happened?
Back to square zero.
I’m sorry, I like being a realist and we should pick our fights.
If this is the fight, go ahead…
But, it doesn’t feel right to me.
There is something disturbing about all this discussion…
Obama and the Democrats ran on change. Obama was elected on his progressive rhetoric. The Democrats extended their majorities in the Congress, and then they proceeded to freeze progressives and progressive action out of their agenda. It was blatant and across the board. Maybe there are some hurt feelings. There is certainly anger. But there is also realism. Democrats ran on a progressive platform of change. They not only threw this to the curb. They are actively subverting it. Whatever allegiances we may have had to the Democratic party are gone, and by their doing. We owe them nothing. That is realism.
BSL, I respect your point of view, always have, but on this we disagree. I do think this is the fight we need to have both in terms of progressives within the party staking out their territory and fighting to defend it and in terms of the specific HCR bill currently on offer.
you know what? Take your realism and stick it somewhere! It isn’t realism! It is still lesser-evilism, which leads to evil, not progress.
I’m saying perhaps asking progressives to “keep their pledge” and shoot their own baby is the wrong strategy, but you’re clearing not getting that point.
That’s Rosemary’s baby fathered by Roman Polanski and Woody Allen.
It’s not that I don’t get it, it’s that I disagree with it.
So tell me, in your world what good is a pledge that you do not intend to keep?
If they said it, they should keep their word, sure. But I’m not surprised they might not.
Right, so we’re right back to where we started. Progressives won’t fight for their principles so they lose. Where does that leave us? Unless Dems perceive an existential threat to their hold on power, the leadership will not change.
And this is why Jason’s position on this is exactly wrong .
I’d readily support replacing our progressives with better progressives. More Alan Grayson’s, for example.
And now we are up to two things we agree on ; )
It’s been a great discussion Jason. Thanks for the opportunity to have it. I’ve gotta scoot for now though. I look forward to arguing with you more later ; )
We’re really not that far apart, I have a feeling. It’s a disagreement of tactics, not principles.
More later, I’m sure, good talking.
Any Democrat who support a bill with Stupak in it is vulnerable for good reason.
Lets threaten the democrats unequivocally with immediate consequences if the public option pledge by progressives in the house is broken ! Kill the bill tonight and screw the false time line on delivering the legislation before Obama’s state of the Union address .
you might want to read this thread.
You know for a fact that there is no progressive legislation to be held hostage. If there were, you’d have a point. But you know the opposite. Why do you insist on lying to people?
Someone replaced your child with a monster. We’re asking progressives to shoot the monster and then go rescue their child, who was kidnapped by a bunch of assholes who care more about money than children.
exactly. but to be fair to the progressives in congress… progressive outside of congress capitulated first (the hcan con to support a neoliberal policy based on flawed and suspect polling before the election and then to support “obama’s hcr plan” after). so why should the progressives in congress be expected to carry the ball on their own?
i still think they should have, but i see lots of blame to go around.
Back up there, phred! Jason addressed your point by making it clear the strategy you propose does nothing to help with the adgenda you want to push.
There is exactly no need to be disagreeable while disagreeing.
Right, the way for the left to win is to surrender to the right. How has that worked out for you? It hasn’t? Sucks to be you, then. Some of us prefer to have a chance at winning, however slim, as opposed to no chance at all.
I voted for Nader several times because he would have at least been honest and a real representative of the people. Don’t fucking tell me my vote doesn’t count. At least I vote in every election.
However, much as I’d like a third party, or a vote for “none of the above,” it’s not happening. The existing two parties have made sure that can’t happen. I’m now at the point where only bodies in the street will have any affect on Congress and Wall Street.
It’s an effect of the voting system, it literally discriminates against third parties. Change that and your vote would have counted for what you wanted it to count for, instead of helping your opponent.
Bingo Sharon. Nader tried to persuade the Democratic Wall but they were too busy batting their eyelashes at the corporations to listen.
Nader has done more for the American people than any 50 of these self-important front page bloggers will ever accomplish. It does’nt surprise me that the D party rejected and scorned someone who told the truth, who was untainted by scandal, and actually stood for something. These are now utterly alien concepts in the modern Democratic Party.
Clinton, and now Obama, with their Party Leadership, throw the Progressive base under the bus and then they blame Nader. Kucinich, Feingold et al, never get a seat at the Leadership table. The Democratic Party has moved to the right and now look like moderate Republicans. The only way to fight the 2-Party dictatorship is to vote for Independent Third Parties. Remember — the neo-Republicans can run this country into the ground faster than the neo-Democrats, and THEN WE WILL GET REAL CHANGE.
After all the fantastic rebuttals yesterday to this rubbish you still cleave to it. Go ahead. Continue to do the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result. Democratic lemmings will continue running over the right wing cliff. No way.
A lot of us are damn proud to be “Naderites.” Your description of those of us who refuse to be Democratic serfs as infantile is disgusting. the Democratic Party needs to take a hit for its own good. Until the Democratic Party returns to the democratic wing of its party you can count me, and quite a few others, out.
Proud Naderite = Republicans little helper. Glad we got it sorted out, though.
Jason, that sort of condescending crap is what people like Lieberman do and folks who just schlep through life supporting any old crap their party bosses, be they Republican or Democrat, just accept their crap.
It’s time to tell the parties to stick it. Let Conservatives handle their problems as they have the same problems we do, just from the opposite end of the spectrum, and let Liberals/Progressives handle our own.
By doing what you suggest, those running Versailles on the Potomac just continue to ignore us and we’ll continue to be ignored until we tell them NO MORE.
I suggest that if the Democratic Party is not supporting Liberal policies, then it is time to tell the Democratic Party to stick their funding requests where the sun doesn’t shine and de-register.
When doing this, people should write to their local, state, and national party headquarters and let them know why you’re doing it.
If people want to continue to be sheep, that’s their choice, but if this Liberal is going to suck hind tit, he’s going to raise hell on the way there.
Jason, when is the last time your tactics worked for progressives?
Howard Dean drove change within the party. He’s the reason we had Obama running as a progressive, even if he’s not governing as one. He’s why we have a 50 state strategy. It worked.
Telling the parties to “stick it” sure feels good, but is it doing what you want it to do?
…and look what happened to him!
How, when the DLC and Israel war wing is making us vote for non-change?
So help me understand. Running as progressives is good even if you then govern a a conservative. Why do I have a hard time understanding the win there?
It’s a step, because Obama convinced a national that progressive things were good, and he’s rightly dealing with the fallout of not governing that way.
Which then convinced the public that “voting for progressive things” was a futile endeavor. We are in a bad way here.
Yeah, and we all know what they did to Dean.
“Howard Dean drove change within the party. He’s the reason we had Obama running as a progressive, even if he’s not governing as one. He’s why we have a 50 state strategy. It worked.
Telling the parties to “stick it” sure feels good, but is it doing what you want it to do?”
Tell me, Jason, what is Howard Dean doing now? Having candidates run as Progressives but govern as something else (try conservative) isn’t really what i have in mind as being something I should be grateful for nor is it something which should encourage me to stick with the Democratic Party.
I really can’t understand why people continue to accept table scraps from these people who run as progressives but govern as conservatives.
Now, we have the best of both worlds, I guess. We can continue to hope for change while we continue to have a war criminal in the White House.
But he’s one of our’s.
Howard Dean drove change within the party. He’s the reason we had Obama running as a progressive, even if he’s not governing as one. He’s why we have a 50 state strategy. It worked.
Telling the parties to “stick it” sure feels good, but is it doing what you want it to do?
Jason this example proves exactly the opposite of what you claim.
Howard Dean ‘s candidacy was destroyed by the party establishment exactly because he was TOO far outside of the party’s mainstream. Remember the fabricated controversy over “the scream”? Instead Democrats got what the party establishment believed was the “safe” choice, John Kerry. That ended well, didn’t it?
So now we have Obama, who uses the rhetoric of a progressive but governs as a “centrist”. Are you seriously claiming this is some sort of meaningful improvement?
The Democratic establishment believes it can ignore progressives because -as Rahm Emmanuel has said himself- they have no where else to go. You’re playing right into their hands by asking that progressives continue to accept their sh*t and abuse “because the Republicans are worse”. That’s not good enough.
The Democratic party isn’t going to change as long as progressives continue to support it in spite of their contempt for the progressive agenda -why would they? It will only change when progressives show that their support is contingent on getting their agenda implemented. That’s how the game of politics is played.
I’m really getting sick of being lectured about how playing political hardball is somehow immature by people whose strategy has only resulted in an unmitigated string of disasters for progressive priorities.
For shame.
Well said.
Jason is willing to eat sht as long as it is democrat shit and he thinks we shld too. Ask the African American and GLBT communities what unwavering support for the democrats have done for them. People who advocate voting for democrats regardless of how they represent you are either being paid to advocate this position or they dont mind being stepped on. The DC dems are scared to death bcz 2010 is the year of accountability. I suspect we are going to get a lot more columns from the Jason’s of the world who suggest that even though Obama is for Wall Street and not for us we shld vote for him anyway bcz he is not as bad as the republicans. I wonder if the drones that are killing children in Afghanistan are less devastating bcz Obama is sending them and not Bush. The time of begging people who we elect to office to do what we send them to do is over, if you vote and govern like a republican- to me your a republican regardless of what party you belong to. I am staying home in 2010 and 2012.
Add wimmin. Coming as close as possible to repealing Roe v. Wade under Ds.
Have you ever heard of civil Rights? You “progressive” teabaggers are clueless.
Americablog has been a strong supporter of Coakley, and they are hardly Obamabots. Brown is a bigot.
You mean the site with the giant DON’T ASK, DON’T GIVE link on their front page?
http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/6006/t/5410/petition.jsp?petition_KEY=727
That one?
I’ll do one better:
I won’t vote for those who don’t call out Obama on his bullshit.
That would include Coakley.
I read his blog. Almost every day Aravosis encourages his readers to vote for Coakley. Am I suprissed that “progressive” teabaggers lie to get their point across? No.
What part of @372 where I said…
did you not understand?
Aravosis is withholding his money for his reasons.
I’m withholding my money/support/vote for my reasons.
Call me all the slurs you want… just shows how desperate you are.
Amusingly enough, Lieberman started a third party!
Amusingly enough, Obama, Reid & the Clintons are still kissing his ass.
Yet I don’t see Jason Rosenbaum calling them out for being traitors to the Democratic Party.
Hilarious, isn’t it?
What’s hilarious is that you seem to think that you can jump on a guy who works tirelessly so that you have a place to type that comment.
There’s nothing to say you can’t say anything you want to here.
What’s funny is the fact you feel the need to defend him.
Is he really that thin-skinned?
Apparently so, given his post.
And your comment.
Poor babies.
Excellent question in need of an answer:
Never. They have never worked for progressives. They have, on the other hand, done wonders for Republicans and right-wing Democrats.
Jason’s policies worked for the millions of children who can now go on S-Chip. But you could care less about them. You deluded know nothing know it all.
I could care less about our nation’s children, but I don’t and I won’t. Nor couldn’t I care less about them. What you meant to write was, “you couldn’t care less.” By saying that I could, you imply that my care can actually be a lot less than it really is (in fact, it’s more than you choose to delude yourself into believing). Democrats helped Bush gut S-CHIP and other programs designed to assist the least of society. I as a progressive did not, but you knew that already.
Spot on, Michael. Let the Democratic party earn the support of the left. Boycott them, let them lose and learn.
Democratic Party political class = entitled to your vote.
Cowardly, unprincipled Democrats = Republicans’ little helpers. Try learning that.
Republicans-little-helper because we don’t vote the party line?! Are you paid to say stuff like that? Seriously.
I’d tell you what to go do with yourself, but you’ve already fucked yourself by throwing your vote away to a party that takes you for granted.
Congratulations for a completely worthless diary that reflects shamefully on your status as a thinking human being.
This debate really only has two positions. The first position is one which most people on this site seem to have adopted – that the lesser of two evils is still evil, that there is no meaningful difference between the republicans and the democrats, and that a republican re-take of the presidency and the congress is necessary to punish the democrats for not living up to progressive ideals.
The other view is that the lesser of two evils is actually lesser – that it does less harm even if it might not do more good, that a congress and a presidency controlled by the democrats are still to be preferrred to the republicans control becaase they would do less evil.
Put me in the second camp. For I do believe that had Nader not run for the Presidency, Al Gore would have won – and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis would be alive today who are now dead, that hundreds of billions of dollars spent on an unprovoked war would never have been spent, and that the consequences of George Bush’ presidency would be with us for a very long time. I also believe that had John McCain won the presidency, he would never had mobilized the US government on behalf of the Haitian people in the manner Obama has ordered. I beleive too that by now, we would have opened a third battle front in Iran.
Progressives have every reason to be unhappy with Obama and the Democrats. But to believe that a republican congress and a democratic congress are a dime without a distinction and that John McCain in control of the White house would not have consequences hugely different from what we are seeing with Obama, this does not accord with recent history.
Because the millions of Iraqis who saw the bombs fall, or heard the bombs fall, or alas, were the ones on whom the boms fall, for these Iraqis, Americans who rationalize and strategize attempts to return contorl of the government to the republican, such Americans are equally complicit in the mass murder that has been visited upon Iraq. For however similar the democrats and the republicans might be, there are fundamental issues of life and death on which a chasm exist between the parties. Iraqis know this all too well.
Put me in a third camp. The lesser of two evils is an unavoidable choice on election day only if you haven’t worked your butts off to get a candidate of your own selected, filed, and haven’t persuaded and delivered enough voters to the polls to vote for that candidate. That is, if you are a passive bystander.
Like the millions of Iraq children killed by Clinton’s sanctions?
What was Saddam’s crime again?
Oh, right…
He went from being “our” hired thug using WMD we sold him (via helicopters we sold him) against his own people to being a free-agent thug willing to lie about his capabilities to keep Iran from attacking Iraq.
Your Kool-Aid is sweetened with Donald Rumsfeld’s NutraSweet.
Let’s take your position on its face value: that Clinton aupported sacntions which killed millions of Ieraqi children. How does this lead you to support Republicans who would enable more killings of let’s say, Iranian children? It’s folly to place a trigger ready martial unjust philosophy supported by the republicans with an Obama doctrine which is based on the principle of just war. It’s fair to say that Obama is an opponent of preemptive war. More innocent people will live because Obama is the US president than would othersiwe be the case if you give the keys of power to the republicans. Your position is as deeply callous as Clinton because you seem not to care aboutthe ramifications of placing power inthe the hands of those who will wage war at the drop of a hat. And I say this fully aware that Obama has ramped up the war in Afghanistan and is winding down the war in Iraq. But there is a case to be made that the Afghan war is a just war. The same cannot be said about Iraq. And that why Obam’s decison fall in the manner they do. A republican controlled government would produce a very different reality and hundreds of thousand are likely to die – who otherwise would live. That is the reality of the position you so blandly espouse.
Obama is not an opponent of preemption. What about Yemen? Pakistan? Truth be told, and many may disagree with this, all US presidents are for preemption. I believe Barry outlined his pro-preemption views in his Nobel speech or the Afghan escalation speech. Maybe someone can elucidate.
Look carefully at this link, especially the part where it says:
Yep, our Dems. They’re
all sweetness and lightbetter than the Repubsgood enough for us.With all respect, where were you in 2000? I dare you to tell me that the presidency of George W Bush would have been the exact same as the Al Gore presidency that Naderites thought was just the same? I hope that your frustration over the lack of change in the last year is blinding you, and not that you are being wilfully stupid. Like you, I demand progressive change, but since you don’t like history, can you just look at current affairs? On the right, despite being absurdly pro-corporate, GWB promised them Scalia and Thomas like justices, and he gave them exactly that. He promised restrictions on abortion, and he gave them exactly that, he promised them abstinence only sex ed, and he gave them exactly that. Politics is compromise, and when progressives fight within our system to make the Democrats as progressive as possible, when we keep contacting our representatives, when we volunteer in elections, when we donate and when we write, call and shout to our democratic representatives then over time we can build a better country. Please read some of our country’s history and please grow up.
Yes, the presidency of Gore would have been functionally equivalent to that of Bush had Gore not fumbled his win to Bush or won his home state.
Gavin Newsom came to the rescue to give the GOP a nice juicy wedge issue in 2004, which tipped the balance in Ohio against a hapless Kerry and gave Bush II another term. Ditto with Phil Angelides, Gray Davis and the raft of California real estate Democrabs.
The ruling elites of the US have an insatiable appetite for the corpses of toddlers. It does not matter where they come from. Viet nam, Haiti, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iraq. Bill Clinton delivered hundreds of thousands of dead infants to Iraq during his sanction and overfly regimes. Are you trying to tell me that Gore at his most conservative would have broken from Clinton on that?
And given Obama’s adherence to Bush’s approach, his refusal to challenge executive privileges that are probably criminal, preferring to keep them as useful tools, I see a straight line between Clinton and Obama which would not have been perturbed especially differently had the occupant of 1600 PA Ave between 2001 and 2009 been Gore or Bush.
Yes, one of the sacred texts has just been burned, that George W. Bush was the worst president ever, when he was just doing what the permanent government told him to do, just providing a steady stream of bleeding, dying kids to pad their accounts, just like Obama is.
Democrats lied to us again when they demonized the Green Party, and progressives suffer for this because it is difficult to build parties and the damage done by the Dems to the Greens is significant. When will we learn that the Democrats readily spent resources defending their left flank where they scrimp against the GOP or adopt the GOP’s policy platform, just like Obama has continued Bush II’s love affair with Wall Street.
Looks like we are getting that right now. Right to choice? Only if you can pay cash.
nothing is exactly the same.
that said, clinton, imo, was a horrible president for a whole bunch of reasons. for example, do you know how many people were killed by the clinton administration’s policies?
btw, i voted for gore in 2000. but i also see those who voted for nader in 2000 as my allies. disagreement and arguments among allies over tactics is natural. so long as the tactics don’t include anything we find morally objectionable (for example, like violent acts aimed at hurting someone) what’s the big deal? no need for personal attacks.
i personally find dishonesty in all it’s manifestations (misinformation, non disclosure, out right lying, etc) morally objectionable. also elitism. but who a person thoughtfully votes for? no way.
Have fun with the Democratic party and don’t forget to stock up on some really good hand lotion for all those jerk-off sessions waiting for something that benefits us, the people who are continually fucked over by the Democrats.
You act as if nothing can be done to change Democrats, when that’s entirely untrue.
And what incentive do you have for forcing Democrats to change? You make it clear that you and the other sycophants will never deprive them of votes in elections. Democrats have everything to gain and nothing to lose by snubbing the left. That’s why they laugh at you for being such a good little partisan poodle. Make them fear the left, and watch Democrats move back there.
Get it right, Jason. The way to change Democrats is to not vote for the ones who take non-progressive positions. Let the Democratic party learn who their constituents are. That’s how the radical right does it and they are successful to the point that their positions don’t even have to make sense. Imagine how far the left could go with logical policies.
Maybe, just maybe, Obama will begin to realize that neither he nor anyone running can campaign as a Progressive and vote as a corporatist anymore. If I lived in MA, I’d vote for Kennedy. This health insurance giveaway should be voted down and if it takes Coakley’s loss to accomplish that…well….
We have to make Obama realize this, yes. Voting in a Republican for Ted Kennedy’s seat isn’t the way to go about it.
How is voting in Coakley, who has taken a ton of money from health insurance and PhRMA lobbyists going to send any kind of message or further a progressive agenda? After all that was pointed out to you about Coakley and the health insurance bill, this post seems really deceptive. You have taken the points like that you want the health insurance bill passed as is out of the discussion and tried to make it look like you want Coakley because she is a progressive. You want Coakley not because you want the health insurance reform bill that is regressive and NOT what Harkin et al. wanted passed. So you are saying that the Nelsons and Liebermans who were bought off by insurance companies and did their masters’ bidding are the problem, not the Harkins who have principles and yet you are advocating voting in another bought and paid for health industry shill who will outvote progressives.
If we hadn’t had the whole discussion over the past couple days, I’d say you just didn’t realize this. But as it is, this just smells bad. I also notice that after all the discussion yesterday about conflict of interest, you still have not put a note on your post about your employment with HCAN. Again, it might be excusable if you didn’t know, but you don’t have that excuse. You must be deliberately concealing your conflict of interest in general as well as your ulterior motives in this particular election.
Thanks to you and the other commenters for noting Jason’s HCAN linkage. I had no idea.
And yes, it should have been noted at the top of the post.
Shorter Jason: Shut up and like it or else the Democratic leadership won’t listen to you!
The “converse” is also true — shut up and like it and the Democratic leadership won’t listen to you.
It isn’t, then what is? Telling him he can do as he pleases and he still can count on us for support? Politicians understand money and votes, that’s it, period. If you aren’t will to deny them both of those things then you will get nothing in return, ever. You can complain and cry all you like, but if a politician can count on your support where it counts, money and votes, they will continue to do as they see fit.
Agreed. Americans across the country feel bamboozled and unempowered. This MA election venue is the best way to register a protest against HCR that is just an insurance/pharma bailout. Let the results of this election speak loud and clearly to Obama, Rhama and the other corporate crooks.
Well, we’re certainly not going to change them by voting for them no matter what policies they espouse.
And speaking of Congressional failures, we are endlessly told about how all the Senate rules are inviolate, tradition and comity must be upheld. Yet when push came to shove, the rules got chucked out the window so that Baucus and his gang of 6 could write the WH’s dream health care bill. Where was Harry Reid then? He certainly wasn’t carrying on about Senate rules or procedure or comity. And where were the progressives? Sitting on their hands or too distracted by cocktail weenies to notice?
FWIW despite your condescending and dismissive characterization, I am not trying to take my ball and go home. What I am desperately trying to do is to get the Dem leadership to stop ignoring me. They can ignore my emails. They can ignore my phone calls. They can ignore every petition I sign. They can ignore my closed checkbook, since it only ever amounted to a drop in their ocean of money. But, they cannot ignore my vote. It is the only place where the public can exert any real influence. I fully intend to use the only bit of leverage that is truly in my posession.
So why don’t we figure out how to campaign to change Senate rules. It’s definitely possible, but it’ll take work, not tantrums.
Folks I will tell you what it looks like from the inside when people try to send this kind of message. Anyone in office says, fine, group X is holding out support, we will go find support somewhere else. Since most of the “with-hold” support is on the left, that moves the debate to the right.
But they can’t get support from the right. The teapartiers won’t have them. Good luck with that. The independents are abandoning them as they move right and don’t stand on principle, so that’s not going to help either. If they are too stupid to figure out what’s going on and instead just assume they need to veer right, they are too stupid to be in office anyway and we need to find new people to run the country.
Hey Folks, for a really great diary and thread concerning this topic, please check out Real world’s diary. Adios.
The establishment has always hated the progressives. However, I think it would be rather silly of them to forget that “Republicans always vote for the real thing” Unfortunately, I think this is what could be happening in MA.
Crockley, the republican-lite candidate has already had a meeting with Health care industry (I’m sure Brown has too) — so, maybe many democratic voters are wondering if she’s had a meeting with the DLC/Military Industrial Complex as well — maybe to hand over that next war vote too?
What about the women of MA — she says she will vote for the Health care bill, this being before any of the Democratic leadership have said that the Stupak or Nelson amendment will be removed. So basically she is a candidate that is happy to hold women ransom to the anti-choicers of the party making health care insurance even worse for women.
And you think we have a message problem? Nah.
Granted a change from our voting system to a runoff voting system would be ideal. Ireland and Australia have these and it allows people to vote their conscience without ever having to even grapple with the idea of “throwing their votes away.”
Problem is, I don’t see the voting system ever changing here. It would be virtually impossible to expect politicians (members of the two major parties) who all clearly benefit personally from this two party system to legislate their own political demise. It would be like asking them to legislate a pay cut for themselves.
So seeing how we’re confined to this corrupted two party system which allows politicians to undermine the electorate at every turn while remaining for the most part immune from voter outrage (since even a Blue Dog will still be the lesser of two evils), you’re essentially suggesting we just accept the status quo.
What about the idea “sometimes it has to get worse, before it can get better”? That seems to apply to this discussion.
By voting for a third party candidate, and allowing the lesser of two evils to lose, you essentially are telling the Democratic Party that the only way they’re going to be able to prevent this from happening in future elections is get a guy further to the Left — someone who would discourage a more populist third party candidate from running, or at least would siphon off his would-be votes.
It’s all about instilling fear in the party — making them feel accountable to the needs of the electorate. Your method actually rewards them regardless of what they do. So essentially, they stop fearing you, stop taking your pleas seriously, and so entrenched interest groups all of a sudden are the only threats they see to their political fortunes.
So they bow to entrenched interests, and they are financially rewarded there, status quo is maintained, and you vote for them anyway. A perpetual cycle that ensures status quo …
Right, and my argument is the shock doctrine for parties – creating a crisis to benefit from it – doesn’t work.
Rather, you can work from the inside, or you can change the system.
I disagree that voting reform is impossible, but it will take years, perhaps a generation. You’d have to start local, and indeed, some localities offer other kinds of voting systems for local elections. Prove it works, prove it’s fair, get people accustomed to it, and move up to the next level.
heh heh. That’s pretty accurate now that you mentioned it. It is sort of a shock doctrine.
I think most economists would disagree with you. People (politicians) ultimately respond in kind to what they perceive to be rewards and punishments.
If past failures prove to Democrats that they can no longer get elected, because of all those damned ‘Ralph Nader’s’ out there, then they have to reevaluate the voters they need to appeal to to win an election, and ask themselves “How can we make these populist independent parties redundant?” Naturally, they would need to move to more populist positions.
By removing the punishment incentive (as you are advocating for) you are essentially assuring they will vote against your interests every time.
So you are willing to have another decade or so of complete Republican misrule to teach the Dems to be better?!? Think about that for a minute. In 8 years of Republican rule we went from a quater trillion dollar surplus, with a 5.8 trillion ten year projection to a 1.5 trillion dollar deficite and an 8 trillion dollar ten year projection. Are you really saying we should endure that much pain? Really?
Pass.
Obviously you aren’t talking about civil liberties issues here , the bailout or a mandate to force millions of Americans to buy health insurance from crooks ( a radical new idea) .
Obama is expanding many of the legal rationales used by Bushes march toward fascism. Your giving him a free pass .
I understand what you’re saying. If fact the idea of a neo-con back in office gives me the shutters.
I’m sure the American Colonists asked themselves the following question “Do we really want to take on THE WORLD POWER — England — in what will ultimately be a bloody war we’ll likely lose, in order to get the kind of government we’d prefer?”
Revolutions are fought to rid governments of corruption. We’re just talking about voting for a third party candidate, if necessary.
I wouldn’t vote against a liberal politician to send a message to the party. But if Bill Nelson or Joe Lieberman were both running and I lived in either of their states, I would most certainly support a third party candidate. No question about that.
But why not be proactive an run a primary challenger, instead of guaranteeing you will not have the representation you want?
I agree with you. A primary challenger would be the absolute best route. But if that for some reason wasn’t an option (no takers) and Ben Nelson (a Democrat in name only) was running against a Republican, and there happened to be a populist independent running, … well, I’d obviously vote for the independent.
At some point you realize that the system pretty much stays the same regardless of who’s in power. “Change” is nothing more than a campaign slogan. It’s time to try something new.
What makes you think we’re not going the primary challenge route? You have to have more than just primary challenges from the left to force establishment Democrats in that direction. If they know that all they have to do is win a primary election and that they’ll keep the votes of the lay voters no matter what come November, then all they will do is talk a few good games, go back to business as usual after the primaries, laughing at us all the way. We cannot continue to surrender to the far right. We have to make the Democrats fear the left. They don’t now, and they never will as long as we continue to shut up and waffle under to them.
American Colonists? WTF kind of example is that? I am on your side in terms of fighting against horrible arguments such as this “vote-the-less-evil” people into office, but you might want to re-read some American History:
The American Revolution was a fight for, and amongst, the elites-Colonial elites and the shitty british empire–it was actually fought by poor fucks everywhere, who deserted in record numbers.
So, SOME revolutions are fought for what you say-not all
That’s not inconsistent with what I originally said:
Yes, the educated Colonist elites put it all together, envisioned a Democracy, and had mostly the poor fight it for them. But you have to remember, many of the American elites sided with England.
The revolutionaries wanted a new government (a democracy) and they were willing to stand up to a world power to get it. There’s nothing factually incorrect about that.
I did — and my thought was, “we have elections every decade or so?”
And Obama is upping base defense budget in addition to huge additions for escalating wars and is refusing to raise taxes on the wealthiest to pay for anything. So where is the deficit going to go? The middle class only has so much to give. There’s a reason there’s talk of commissions to figure out how to “reform” entitlements. I’d rather have war and tax cut deficits and some security in my old age than war and tax cut deficits and no security either, plus having to pay insurance companies so their CEO’s can have enough to buy a yacht and finance a few dozen campaigns. There is no advantage here to the Dems we’ve got and Coakley is another one of them. She is already beholden to lobbyists and chose to ignore her constituents in order to fly to a fundraiser on the Hill with lobbyists when her campaign was in trouble. That tells you exactly where she sees her bread being buttered. Don’t talk about needing more progressives when the choice is another corporatist who might as well be a Republican for all the progress she will give us.
I would like to have an honest elections system.The electronic voting machines are owned for the most part by republicans.When the exit polls don’t match up to the results of the election in the US, we are given lame excuses.
Don Seigleman questioned Alabama’s elections and he was put in jail.Sends a message. If it were not for caucuses in dem. primaries, hillary would be our president. She and Bill have both tried to do away with caucuses.
Remember when Tweetie was calling hillary the inevitable next president in the primaries.She was going around to diners and Obama was drawing thousands to his rallies? NH had major voting irregularities. Hand counts went for Obama …machine votes were for Hillary.2000 pound elephant in the room in our so called democracy.
Exactly. It’s not principled progressives who enable Republicans in the halls of power, but sellout Democrats. Likewise, it’s not principled progressives who hand Republicans victories in elections, but sellout Democrats. Voters are not as stupid as the two major parties seem to think.
The two-party system is set in stone once and forever, and that’s why the next election will be decided between…
Whigs and Federalists!
Just because the system always has two parties does not mean the names of those parties don’t change. Go Whigs!
Oh! That is it! I am sooo done with you Jason, everyone knows the Federalists have it all going on over the Whigs! ;~)
well we need to replace the dems then.
With who? Republicans? Because that helps how?
the greens
Right, mustn’t allow a party that does not take corporate contributions to participate because they might get people to vote for them.
Ha! Yep! Conversation over. You should probably read the above post before talking about third parties…
I read it and responded with my own diary!
If the conversations over, than why address naderites. You are being silly!
We need more ‘Independent’ candidates like Bernie Sanders.
To chances of changing the system as it currently stands is not good. The DLC wing in the party (who I never believed were not in charge) will continue to spit on us. This piece from Salon in 2006 regarding the Lieberman race (remembering how that’s worked out for us!)
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/24/clinton_lieberman/
After awhile it gets a little tiresome being the doormat.
BTW over @ PDA Woolsey (Co-Chair of the Progressives) looks like she’s lost her creditability.
PDA’s reply to Woolsey joke of a reply.
http://pdamerica.org/articles/news/2010-01-15-08-16-47-news.php
Jason , sounds like your philospohy is we vote democratic regardless of the size of the abuse and whine during the primaries.Thats the same type of enabling a battered wife does when making excuses for her bruises .
Oh and what ever happened to the whigs as a political party ?
No, it’s to change the party from the inside. Please read.
A worthwhile goal , by all means .
But if you fail to get a real progressive on the ticket , why not vote third party or stay home ?
Doing anything else is to ignore the lessons learned in the last two cycles and send the Dem’s the message that they can take your vote for granted , obviously .
Because it’s a politically juvenile response, and it’s counterproductive.
Your living in denial Jason. Haven’t you seen the polls ? The democrats are in the process of doing themselves in .
Maybe we could stack the party with superdelegates of our own liking?
I’m really glad this discussion has started because there has been lots of talk around the edges of it but it needs a good solid airing.
What seems to get lost in some of the arguments for supporting the current Dem’s is the question of the long term impact of supporting or not supporting them. As a tactic, it is easy to argue against.
However, this is not a tactic, it is a strategy. Dems are better than rethugs. True. But are the Dems of today better than the rethugs of ten, twenty, or thirty years ago? That is not so clear. They talk a better game from our perspective. But what legislation do they pass? What laws do they enforce? What judges do they move forward? Would the Dems to 30 years ago recognize the Dem’s of today. Perhaps as the right wing of the party at best.
The Dem’s continue to move right and a large part of this today is because we use the boogie man of Ralph Nader as the way of allowing them to ignore any pressure to move left. If we vote for them no matter how far they move right, when will the stop moving that way.
Stopping our support for Dems now is a clear way of saying: No More Moves to the Right.
This is not about 59 vs 60 seats. This is about the historical direction of our party and we need to take a stand.
THis is about you being a child, mostly. You think Republicans are moving back to their historical roots? Have you seen where Republicans are headed lately?
Jason, back in August I predicted that the end game would be a PO versus an IM. When I recommended that folks adopt that posture then to take control of the debate according to where it seemed headed, I was flambeaued on this site for leaving the reservation and not assuming that we’d win on the PO.
It is time to end plantation politics, to leave the reservation for good.
Let’s take our balls and go home! WAAAAAAAAAAA!
No, let’s keep the ball away from Lucy until we can figure out how to set it up for a field goal.
That might involve allowing the other side to punt and taking the ball further down field for a longer drive.
But since progressive values and policies are ascendant, while GOP economic sharia is revealed as a ruse, we’ll have the wind at our backs.
Right, political shock doctrine. I’m arguing it doesn’t work.
How do you know it wouldn’t work Jason ? It hasn’t been tried in more than half a century .
Are you trying to say that the current health bill is NOT political shock doctrine?
No, it’s incremental change.
There is a thin line between incremental and excremental change.
Incremental change can involved distasteful compromises, but this starts off from the “very bad” and only includes as much “not so bad” as to buy off just as few powerful whining constituencies as is needed to get it over the top.
Fair notice: I’ll be borrowing that one.
Good God, man. Are you losing your grip?
Look, I know it must be frustrating,- to be a paid political hack who just knows every fucking thing there is to know about politics. Then to be flanked by a phalanx of non-lemmings who, with incisive and well considered argument, dissect your hackneyed Party line with such surgical skill . . . it must really stick in your craw.
But please. Try to hang on to a semblance of personal dignity. Calling your opponents political idiots tells me you’ve run out of ammunition. And by the way, I’m noticing that commenters against you are about 5 or 6 to 1. Many decades- long active Democrats. I do not believe we are all deluded or naive.
Ironically, I am not without experience in the nuts and bolts of practical politics in the local scene, albeit not strictly partisan, have seen the art of inserting gonads into vises and taking risks. Sometimes you get the dildo, but sometimes you get to give it as well.
But you never, ever lead with your compromise. And you’ve got to know when to walk away from a shitty deal, no matter how much you have invested in cutting a deal.
Realworld isn’t being a child, boy. You are. When you begin to behave like an adult, then you might have a sliver of credibility when you lecture others on how they behave.
The democrats are merely throwing the ball back to the republicans this election cycle because the corporate agenda is more important than either party .
This is the simple truth. Thank you freeman.
get a room. you too rf and eCAHN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE
Oh and also the deficit if I’m not mistaken is expanding at a record pace presently .
From the washington times as posted on Huffpo:
The Congressional Budget Office said the deficit for fiscal 2010, which began Oct. 1, is building at a record pace, reaching $389 billion for those first three months.
The lesser of two evils strategy has proven completely bankrupt , time to start thinking out of the box !The democrats have been handed two election cycles and we can clearly see the results .
How does the saying go ? Fool me once shame on you .Fool me twice shame on me !
Bernie Sanders is a better democrat than the democrats are !Why not support only democrats worth the name ?
Vote on principle and support independents or third party candidates in every other race.
Tell that to the Democrats.
Right, the Democrats and organized labor, those with the resources power on the allegedly liberal and progressive side are not to be held accountable.
Let’s offload the responsibility for the failure of the Democrats and labor to volunteers who took up the constitution on its offer and participated in the political system.
Because Obama has proven that we do get different, progressive and liberal policies when we elect Democrats over Republicans, right?
When will you realize that you are Charlie Brown and the Democrats are Lucy with a football?
The health bill is absolute crap and in a nation with limited venues for democratic participation to shape policy, each and every one needs to be exercised in cases like this.
If the GOP had put forth a regressive individual mandate and proposed a tax on health plans, both the most regressive and conservative way to fund programs, the Democrats and their apologists would be shitting purple twinkies around the Capitol 24/7, the airwaves would be hot and heavy, laden with partisan Democrat blamethrowers.
But as it stands, the blame gets thrown on working class Americans, first for not shutting up and taking the turd being given us by the Democrats and then for not liking that and translating our political disgust into voting as we’re supposed to do in this arrangement.
With same sex marriage, queers get to be free so long as we act like hets, and with health care, progressives can only win so long as we support the Democrats and their pro-corporate solutions.
Uh, no. One, two, many more Naders!
W/ regards to Che…
The whigs were once the “other party”.
The populist party of the 1890′s . Approximately forty-five members of the party served in the U.S. Congress between 1891 and 1902. These included six United States Senators
The abolitionist Free Soil Party helped women’s suffrage,
Teddy Roosevelt’s progressives helped fair wages, regulation of child labor.
A coalition of greens, naderites,progressives, libertarians ,independents and disaffected republican and democratic voters could well amount to a successful anti insider party and serve as a general wake up call to both parties.
Progressives can only win so long as we lose.
If you’re arguing that there’s never been political change from the inside, you didn’t read the article too well.
How much longer do we need to wait, Jason?
We need to network with the other disaffected American voters on all sides of the political spectrum and elect new congress people who will stand up to big business and defend civil liberties .
The democrats are , if the polls are any indication on their way to historic defeats in November.
Sorry buddy but voting for corporatist democtrats is starting to look like a zero sum game. We pull out all the stops for them and we get to eat a crap sandwich. Time after time.
The lucy / charlie brown analogy is appropriate.
I am disgusted beyond belief. I am looking at the country going down the tubes and the dems are at least partially responsible. What in the world have we come to? Obama is the biggest dissapointment ever. I really wish I could go back in time and vote for the first woman president instead of Obama.
Thanks for the crap sandwich Obama/Rahm/Reid/Pelosi. Thanks ever so much.
Oh and Dems will keep voting for the lot of them because the Talibangelicals have taken over the Republican party. Nice.
But we are not supposed to go third party…yeah we will see how this works out for the Democrats. Nothing lasts forever including a majority in both houses and including a two party system.
The “two party system” was created by the “two parties” now in power. The two party system is not enshrined in our constitution. If we all vote third party…the third party wins. Take that corporatist Dems and Rethugs. We the people don’t have to vote for you.
We do however have to take back the voting counting from the electronic voting companies. Curious how neither of the two parties is concerned that vote counting now takes place in secret and is unverifiable? Maybe because they are all in cahoots. This is a charade to keep power in the hands of corporations and away from actual population that votes.
The difference between the Dems and the GOP is that their policy narrative is exhausted and proven wrong.
The Dems ran on progressive platforms, liberal not radical, and won two elections on those policies. Public opinion supports the more progressive aspects to proposals on the table today, health care, financial reform, wars, etc.
Democrats’ stars fall when they abandon their platform and continue serving corporations.
Wow, I think we’ve just proved how uninformed you are.
If Coakley is defeated, the only thing that Congress can do to pass health care reform is ratify the Senate bill with no changes. Otherwise, if anything changes, it would have to be sent back to the Senate for 60 votes, which they don’t have.
So a Coakley loss makes the health care bill worse, not better.
This is about more than health care, this is about corporate rule of government and the position of the Democrat Party as a counterbalance to that.
If Coakley loses, The Health Insurer Corporate Welfare Act of 2010 goes down and the American people win.
I hope they’re scared as fucking shitless about a Coakley loss as most of us are about the passage of the corporate welfare health act.
I love it . Defeats this misguided bill and sends the democrats an early warning for their self inflicted defeats in November ! Sometimes you have to restrain someone so they don’t hurt themselves.
Passing this legislation will screw the democrats chances in the next two election cycles .
Wouldn’t be the first time that the Democrats signed a suicide pact with themselves. You would think that folks would have seen the pattern where the Democrats invariably snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, spending more resources attacking progressives and liberals than the right wing.
Well, they put their money where their hearts are…
If Coakley loses, The Health Insurer Corporate Welfare Act of 2010 goes down and the American people win.
May I suggest a little hard ball ?
What do the American people win?
Freedom from being made indentured servants of for profit health insurers?
Liberals would tax businesses to pay for health care, not individuals.
No, if the bill fails, we are back to the status quo… in which we ARE
identured servants of for profit insurers (I would not use those words but you get my drift)
ding ding ding ding!
I think ding-a-ling might suit that comment better. If this bill fails we are no worse off, and health care is still an issue that needs to be addressed immediately. It cannot be put off for a generation, or even seven years. We have to have a system at least as affordable as our trading partners or we’re up a creek. This bill still let’s the parasitic insurance and pharmaceutical industries bleed us of money we need for healthy communities. This bill is written by these industries for the benefit of these industries. Passing it will lock us in for generations with no chance of parole.
Come on, that’s what was said in 94. We can’t put it off. It’ll crush us. 20 years later…
Well, I typed this before I saw you left. I’ll post it anyway. Thanks for the discussion.
—————————
Honestly, i think the whole push for reform right now is in the interest of the health care industry. I have to think they love the idea of this bill. Millions of customers with the premiums for many paid by the government. No painful cuts in their rates. We’ll still be paying ridiculous prices for drugs. I recently saw a list of 22 “health care” executives who collectively pocketed close to $15bn over a recent 5 yr period — that will continue, and get worse. This bill is a raid on the treasury as blatant as the bank bailout, but because some people are so excited about providing health care for the uninsured, they refuse to see it. Insurance companies are laughing all the way to the bank, why do you think they’re turning out for Cloakley?
The difference now are the projections we see for increases for a family’s insurance premium over the next few years. In legislating this bill more moves have been made to protect corporate earnings than to help lower costs. Doesn’t that alone speak volumes about who it was written to benefit? Even with all the ads against reform, and the town hall disruptions, people still thought the PO was a good idea by a good margin.Pass this and we’ll never see it. Reining in costs after this passes will look like regulating banks does now, only with less chance of success.
A voice and escape from corporate slavery in the form of a mandate to buy a flawed product from private enterprise , which is a very radical idea and a horrible precedent .
See my comment at 129.
Evidence please.
And what reason can you give us, other than your magical thinking, that Coakley will work to improve this disastrous bill once elected? I see no indication that she will do anything other than vote for its passage. Your arguments are those of a child trying to bully adults into craven submission. Judging by the massive response to your condescending tripe, most readers are not buying it one iota — and we shouldn’t.
Since comfortable middle class white folks aren’t suffering, we have the power to tell everyone else who is, both here and elsewhere, (Haiti, Af-Pak, Iraq) to sit tight and suck it up because we’re too chicken to confront power here.
Who has worked their whole careers to mandate individuals purchase crappy insurance w/o cost controls? Who ran on that position? Who ran against that position? What Americans, aside from the Democrat hack parade, are rallying in the streets in order to demand an IM?
I believe that the permanent government encouraged racism against Obama in order to cast all opposition to this exercise in disaster capitalism as racist when it is just really, really bad policy from a variety of perspectives not those of insurer or pharma or DSCC/DCCC.
Some of them have worked their entire careers just to expand Medicaid to more low income folks, which this bill does.
It does no such thing because it does not provide funding for Medicare, just “kicks the can down the road” to the states with temporary bribery in some instances.
And, no, it is not okay to put the middle classes into bonded servitude to the insurers, to put women in the position of having to pay a premium and then some to control their fertility, just to give the poor the illusion of coverage.
Given the fiscal climate prevalent in states with the highest populations, are you seriously expecting that devolution of responsibility by decree is a good idea?
You don’t understand the policy. It expands Medicaid at current matching rates. Medicaid is a program which is paid for both by the federal government and states. The health care bill increases federal funding for Medicaid. Fact.
The policy is a moving target. My understanding is that the states are still on the hook to finance Medicaid to the extent that Senators folded early and did not secure bribes.
California is just swimming in spare cash, what with our 78c on the federal tax $ in federal services. SECEDE!
Yes, they’re on the hook to finance their share of the expansion. Federal and state governments split Medicaid funding, and that split would include the new folks who would get Medicaid.
So, the states, which are generally going down the tubes financially have to either defund (schools, bridges, public transportaion, etc, you choose) or further reduce medicaid levels, or perhaps start issuing IOU’s.
No, not quite. There’s lots of ways to pay for Medicare, and we’ve been doing it for 40 years. I’m not sure why expanding it would be bad.
Perhaps if the Democrats cut the military budget instead of inflating it to a record of more than $700b, they might have some spare change left over to pay for Medicare? Expansions are great if they’re paid for sustainably. If they are not paid for, then they are not expansions.
Don’t like that? Use your congressional majorities to change that math.
California is already having to cut Medicaid. Because we were more generous than the minimum in the past, we will be hosed in what the feds help us pay for when the new expansion comes into play. Basically, the feds will say that you have to expand medicaid to cover various people you didn’t have to cover before and the feds will configure their new financial share by how many newly eligible people you are covering after that goes into effect. California won’t be covering many new people because they made them eligible long ago, before they had to, because we’re just not as heartless as your average state, and they won’t count as newly eligible for the federal aid. We already pay more in federal taxes than we get back and now we’ll be hosed again. When we ask for a short term loan, we get told no way because it’s a bad precedent. When Wall Street asks for a huge bailout, they get told they can not only have that but can have unlimited taxpayer guarantees through the fed and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and don’t have to bother paying any of that back ever. But maybe if they don’t whine loudly enough they might have to kick in a miniscule fraction of what we’ve lost on them over a ten year period.
You either have no idea how this all works or you are deliberately acting clueless.
That’s one of the problems with the expansion – many states already have made the threshold higher. Some are higher than 133% of FPL. I think it’s great that the bills do this, but they should do it for every state. They could have, of course, by simply covering the expenses for everyone between the old federally-mandated threshold and the new one.
Yet another case of shitting on those you feel you have in the bag and rewarding those who are assholes. California, New York and the other states liberal enough to have already been generous in Medicaid can eat shit sandwiches because they won’t go anywhere. Now how about some prime rib and champagne for Nebraska?
When my daughter was barely walking and talking she loved to go see the turtles at the pet store. But she would throw a huge tantrum when I tried to leave the pet store. So I told her that if she did that, it just taught me not to take her to the pet store at all or I’d get one of the tantrums I didn’t like. On the other hand, if she were nice to me when I took her to the pet store and left when we needed to go, I would want to take her more often because I would think about how much fun it had been the last time I took her. We also discussed how if she ignored me when I asked her nicely to come with me but did as I wanted when I yelled or punished her, she was teaching me to never ask nicely and always to yell and punish.
Now, of course I think my kids are absolute geniuses, but I still have to say that if a bunch of frikkin’ adults with education and high paying jobs in Congress and their voters can’t understand what a frikkin’ three year old got in no time, I have to believe they just aren’t trying that hard. When they then tell me that I’m the idiot for figuring out how I should act based on understanding these basics of how the world works, I want to put them in a time out until they’re 80.
Back when we still had live radio DJs in the morning, I remember one talking about his experience as a used car salesman. He said he got out of the business, because it was always the nice people who got shafted. The jerks would huff and puff, and either leave or threaten to. The nice people would just stay there and discuss the deal. Guess who got the better deal.
That’s where I finally learned that it really is the people who are willing to walk who have all the power in a negotiation. There are folks here who clearly don’t get that, and probably never will.
Members of Congress can figure people out just fine. That’s why they’re where they are. In some cases, that’s their only talent, but it’s what they do. Ditto the guys in the White House. Any one of them who happened to read this thread would know that the Democrats are going to get away with whatever they do, as long as it’s us who they’re screwing.
What I learned from being a nice person who was a trial attorney is that you don’t have to be a jerk, but you do have to be strong. You definitely have to prove that you are ready, willing and able to throw down and kick ass when someone insists on trying to roll you. When I buy a car, I tell the salesperson straight up what I am and am not willing to do and that I don’t like bullshitters and will pay more for the same car elsewhere rather than buy it from a bullshitter. I’ve settled some cases where I didn’t have the time or energy to dance around and started with a compromise, but only with people who knew from past experience that if I said that was my bottom line and they could take it or start getting their trial exhibits ready, that was exactly what I meant. And I didn’t say it if I didn’t mean it.
I am a nice, easygoing, generous person, which is what attracts me to the left and repels me from the right politically. But that doesn’t mean I have to be a patsy. I now work with teens on probation. I tell them that in greater society, when they act dangerous, they put a target on themselves because people want them away from their loved ones and property so that’s a stupid way to try to get what you want from society. On the other hand, I freely admit that if I were to go into some neighborhoods or into the prison system and be my nice “let’s talk this out nicely and not be threatening” self, I’d get my wallet stolen and my ass kicked and that would be just as stupid. The smart thing is to figure out what system you are working in and do what works in that system. The political system is not a place to play let me show you how generous I can be first and then you reciprocate. And if you don’t, I’ll try even harder to show you how worthy I am of generosity by giving everything I have to you.
PaulaT, You brought me out of lurk mode with your post.
Great anecdote, and it frames your point wonderfully.
How can you claim that telling the democrats that you will vote for them what ever they do is any thing other than enabling them ? That proposition defies logic .
Isn’t that a direct quote from “Politics for Suckers?”
That’s a childish reading of the position. We should vote against them in primaries, and if we lose, well, we’ll try harder next time.
Be sure to stand precisely between the two rails while you hold your hands to your ears and screw your eyes closed and say “THIS IS NOT HAPPENING, THIS IS NOT HAPPENING” as the freight train bears down on you at speed.
Again.
Jason how about the second half of my question , the part where you advocate voting for the democrats anyway ? That is your position ,isn’t it ?
If you show me an option that doesn’t help Republicans and involves not voting for Democrats, I’m all ears.
Show me an option that represents the Democratic platform that Obama ran on and doesn’t screw Americans in favor of the insurers or pharma…
Doesn’t mitigate the fact that by voting for Brown or not voting for Coakley you’re helping Republicans. You don’t have to like the facts, but you don’t get to dispute them.
So the Democrats and labor play their hand using the resources they’ve got, not allowing anyone else to participate in their game, and end up with this result.
Instead of questioning why those who got us into this mess, who played a winning hand like crap, should expect us to sit by and let them play this hand for shit as well.
Democrats expect average folks to limit political participation to just voting in an election, to only support the Democrats when they tell us to, and to never oppose them when they are fucking up like they always do.
Are you suggesting that organizing against Viet Nam was wrong because it cost Johnson his presidency and diminished Democratic prestige?
I’m still pretty sure you didn’t read the above article. I’m pretty sure I advocated clearly for primary challenges and for the building of our own infrastructure. Miss that part?
All of this was sorted out in Democrat primaries in 2006 and 2008, the problem was that the candidates said one thing and than did another once elected.
These candidates need to be held accountable to their promises, and one way to do that is to scare the fuck out of them and to possibly cost them their 60 vote majority, a threshold which the Democrats have proven they have no intention to use in order to implement their platform.
So, fuck ‘em.
That’s right. Getting the said part meant a ton of people in America now believe in progressive things, and are angry that they’re not seeing them come to fruition. That can be used to run and win progressives in coming elections.
No, they cannot, Jason, not by the Democrats. Once bit, twice shy. The Democrats cannot escape their record of deception and failure to deliver. By raising hopes of a progressive or even liberal regime and then governing to the right of Bill Clinton, that has consequences on people’s willingness to buy a similar product from the same manufacturer again.
You all don’t realize that political actions change their environment in all sorts of ways, see same sex marriage and how its impacted the LGBT struggles.
The Democrats need to earn our votes by following through on their promises. If they cannot do that, then they need to be fired. Anything less is tantamount to staying with an abusive spouse, about par for the course for the Party of Stupak.
I wouldn’t disagree that Democrats, especially Obama, has bought himself a huge problem. But that doesn’t contradict my point that even running as a progressive is a good thing, as it changes a lot of minds.
But actually we can and we do. Our vote is not about helping Democrats or Republicans. It is about voting for a candidate that represents our interests. We. do. not. owe. anyone. our. vote.
And by voting for a third party, or not voting, you are helping the candidate that you are most against. That’s how the system is designed to work. It’s a fact of politics in this country.
Wrong. At the moment, I see no operational difference between corporatist Democrats and corporatist Republicans. I am against both, and I will vote for neither. If a progressive runs against a Democrat in a Democratic primary and wins, then I would vote for him/her in the general. But I would vote for them as a progressive, not as a Democrat. If they showed any allegiance to the Democrats, I would drop them.
Sure, but what’s your definition? Is Coakley as bad as Lieberman? Is Brown better than Nelson?
The question you should be asking is why the Democratic party can’t come up with candidates worth voting for. If they come up with crap corporatist candidates they deserve to lose.
No, not really. Our system is designed to offer up the lesser of two evils. Not sure why we’re surprised when it does.
That is a cop out. Your argument is then that we should all get motivated and stay politically involved because all candidates are crap. So why didn’t Obama run on that platform: “Crap you can believe in!”?
The fact that Obama ran as a progressive is a win for our side. It’s a recognition that our ideas are popular and can win elections.
That is just nuts. Who cares if progressive ideas can win elections if the politicians who spout them promptly dump them once they are in office? How does that become an argument for working to elect such people?
Especially when they don’t think they should even have to work to elect themselves.
The era of the Democrat hack parade blaming the Greens and other progressives for the failures of the Democrat Party to deliver for working Americans is over.
The only reason why they get so worked up about it, spending as many resources to challenge us as they do the GOP, is because we’re on the right track and they’re scared.
Part of the way you get progressive change is by convincing people progressive change is good. The campaign is a great way to do that. A lot of minds were changed in 2008. That’s a good thing.
And just how many minds are going to stay changed when the Dems fail and prgressives get the blame?
Democrats winning elections on a progressive platform and then governing as conservatives isn’t a win, it’s a disaster. The general public will view resulting policies as being “progressive” policies and will decide that the progressive movement isn’t a viable path forward for our country.
I tend to actively support “the lesser of two evils” but there are limits to this logic. If you believe that “the lesser of two evils” has no limits then your going to find corporate America leading you around by your nose. And in fact, thanks to men such as Rahm/Summers/Geithner, that’s exactly what we’ve been getting.
Right on. It’s a huge disaster. But I don’t think the general public views what the Dems have been doing since Jan 2009 as “progressive.” The general public voted for a better direction in ’06 and ’08, and now 63% are saying that the country is going in the wrong direction. The American people voted for change we can believe in, and they know that we’re not getting it. 45% of the base of the Democratic Party say they will not even bother to vote in Nov. From enthused to turned off in less than a year. Great job, Obama. Not.
Right on! For years, I did what Jason is suggesting that we do now in 2010. Now that I see the bullshit I was supporting by voting for candidates like Kerry and contributing to the DNC, the DSCC, and the DCCC and, having seen since Jan 2009 what the corporatist a$$holes who dominate the Democratic Party will do once they have power, I will not be contributing to or voting for such assholish candidates again.
I would say that if the planks he ran on were progressive but he implements none of them instead centrist or right-leaning policy then it is not win, it is lip service. And if we don;t make him feel some pain as a direct response to his disingenuous campaign pledges. It will be done again and again.
What’s more, Obama did NOT campaign as a progressive. He campaigned as Bill Clinton campaigned — on a right-wing platform that had the stupid luck of a bad economy to benefit from. If you notice the polling data throughout 2008, up until the economy officially began its collapse Obama was within the margin of theft for McCain. But then the meltdown started, and McCain demonstrated sheer incompetence in response. Although he had the good sense to suspend his campaign in order to go to D.C. to help resolve the situation to his liking, his actual participation was virtually nonexistent. It was Obama who was seen to be taking action — albeit horrible — to do something about the crisis. Had the economy not officially begun its collapse (some pundits, such as Smirking Chimp’s Michael Fox, date the start of the Second Great Depression to November 2007), McCain would’ve been able to steal the election and we would be no worse off than we are now under Obama.
But Hugh, you are not voting in Massachusetts, that’s my point
No, I am not. But if I were, I probably would not be voting for Coakley. Voting against the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. I feel no allegiance to a party that has shown again and again it has no allegiance to me, or people like me.
I am sorry you feel that way…
My experience is different. Maybe I’m just Irish lucky.
The Dems have also been good to me and mean well.
Massachusetts has always been a progressive state and if we elect
Brown, well I’ll hang my head in shame.
So why do you insist on disputing the facts? By pressuring the left to support a right-wing Democrat, you ensure a Republican victory. This is because given the choice between Brand A and brand B, where Brand B is just a crappy and pale imitation of brand A, the public will go with Brand A. Brand B has to be better than brand A, or it will never be chosen in a legitimate contest.
Live by the politics of cooties, die by the politics of cooties. For all the cooties the Dems have attributed to the Reps, it turns out that there are many honest conservatives who find common ground with many honest progressives that both the Dems and Reps are the purveyors of cooties, and that average folks have much more in common than with the political and financial elites that play us against one another for power and profit.
The Democrats need some Tough Love right about now.
Like I said the democrats can take your vote for granted .
I am far more concerned with principles than party .We disagree, which is what adults do when they are bold enough to have their own opinions. That isn’t being childish or adolescent, it’s called thinking for oneself.
If the house progressives fail to take a stand on this legislation immediately perhaps it’s time to lend a little support in Massachusetts .
I have no problem with primarying Democrats with progressives. But the idea is not to elect more and better Democrats but more and better progressives. I am all for co-opting the Democratic access to the ballot (a major hurdle for third parties), just not for their benefit but ours.
Then the best way is to start a Progressive Party?
No, as Hugh said, third parties are at a disadvantage. It’s to take over the Democratic party.
Yes a party based on priciples, voting for democrats when appropriate or running progressives as independents against them when there is no progressive democratic candidate on the ticket ! A different slant on the third party principle .
Exactly principles rather the practicality. It’s your choice, but I
opt for political reality. And whattabout the law of unintended consequences… Be careful what you wish for…
At least the democrats elected to office would be progressive as opposed to corporate lackeys and it would introduce a new force into politics outside the con game. And your strategy has unintended consequences as well , which have been clearly on display .
Your “practicality” is also a matter of opinion and he majority of the posters on this thread disagree with your assessment of it .
As I said, third parties have problems getting on the ballot or being recognized even if they do get there. My opinion is to run progressives as Democrats for easier access to the ballot and improve their chances of election. But these would be Democrats in name only, except on the left. Their allegiance would be to progressives not Democrats.
As it happens, a Progressive Party already exists.
http://www.progressiveparty.org
That’s the Vermont chapter. A Washington State chapter also exists:
http://www.waprogparty.org
Unless they run as a Green and the Democrat can’t close the deal. Progressives will not allow the Democrat Party to own and then to debase the progressive political terrain.
you and hcan are at the top of my list.
Wow, thanks, didn’t know I was that powerful.
just my opinion, but i think anyone helped move the progressive discussion on healthcare reform away from progressive polices to the right in favor of neoliberal ones ought to be ashamed. not proud.
anyone who calls themselves progressive anyway.
they’re at the top of my list too.
The model had been that people voted for conservative executives while disagreeing with their policies. In American politics, both parties appeal to the extreme bases during primaries and then shun those bases for the center. The right wing base changed the GOP because they felt excluded, yet GOP policies were sufficiently right that they alienated most Americans from that to the extent that they voted liberal for president this time.
What did the Dems do, implement a wishy washy liberal agenda (relative to base), equal and opposite of the Bush II regime? Hell no, they went for something between Bush and Clinton without even appearing to appeal to the base, a base which has been more progressive than the center of politics for 30 years now.
You can’t escape when equilibrium is punctuated, and the longer you hold it off, the more painful it is going to be when it snaps.
I’d agree with this analysis, but I’d like to point out that the right wing base didn’t hijack the GOB by threatening to vote for Pat Buchanan.
Because the GOP did not fuck their base repeatedly while implementing liberal policies.
In San Francisco, I thought the issue was just that gay male bottoms were predominant in politics, but we’ve got a real masochistic streak amongst liberals and progressives, gay and straight alike.
You won’t get an argument from me that the Republicans know how to treat their base. They do and it’s to their credit.
So its up to us to use the very limited political tools at our disposal to change that.
Right. The question is how. As I said, the Republican base didn’t get respect by threatening to vote for Buchanan. I don’t understand why people here think we’ll get respect by threatening to vote for Nader, or, say, make Coakley lose.
Jason, the right wing base did not HAVE to demand the GOP cater to them, that is what political parties do to keep their coalitions nurtured. The fundies in that coalition HAVE formed the tea party movement and ARE going outside the GOP.
We are not fundies. Our policies enjoy broad support, and there is room for honest difference in how to provide publicly financed health care, or how do do progressive climate or tax legislation. Yet we are patently excluded from the table and our organizations neutralized into a helpless veal pen by the Democrats. The Dems kick us in the teeth like we’re some sort of poor Appalachian woman trapped in her trailer by an abusive husband.
We’ve fought for DECADES on this and gotten NOWHERE except in campaign pitches, they cater to us when its free. The best advice to an abused spouse is that you cannot change him, that you’ve got to remove yourself from the dangerous situation and seek mediation AS PEERS from a position of safety and power.
No mas, no mas.
The tea parties are trying to figure out whether to stay inside the party or not. If they don’t, they’ll lose. See NY-23. If they do, they can win. See here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/us/politics/15party.html?ref=politics
The equivalence is just not valid and is really typical of trying to impose some sort of equal and opposite dualism that naturally flows from the two party system and fucks up everything from discourse to policy making.
Tea baggers are fundamentalists who bolted because the GOP did not cater to them enough and precisely. Progressives are mainstream as measured by the polls and are getting no consideration from Obama or the Democrats despite being their essential electoral coalition partner.
Do you think that if the Obama scuttled health reform now as unpopular, that Coakley would win the election in a landslide?
It would be great if the Dems lost the Lion of the Liberals Senate seat because of a corporate welfare health bill.
Wanna wager if the Democrats would cast the progs as racists if they were to kill it?
Where there is no progressive democrat in a race after a primary we should organise a behind a third party challenger ( green) or put up our own ! Democrats will get the message pretty quickly if their base votes against them .We wouldn’t be a traditional third party and that would be a asymmetrical attack on the status quo !
So the Democrats gained those extra votes to win an election by appealing to progressive values in 06 and 08, but are laughing in our faces as we are irrelevant to the debate now, this after spending the 2000s capitulating to Bush II and blaming progressives who voted for Nader for everything that Bush II did, even as the daylight between Obama and Bush II is embarrassingly little.
What political psychology class produced that gem?
Jason you make an excellent lightning rod .
Has Obama renegotiated NAFTA yet for enviro and labor protections?
It’s on his agenda right after passing EFCA.
We can begin our debut by helping to defeat the democrats in Massachusetts over the next few days unless the house sends this bill to the trash bin by tonight and sell it as a vote by the people against the “reform”.
Any takers ?
Conversely, if the dems trashed the Health Insurer Corporate Welfare Act of 2010, Coakley would win in a landslide.
What that means is that the Dems have calculated that it is more important for them to serve the insurers and pharma, even if it risks their 60 vote majority, then to take feedback from the public and produce something that has broad popular support and achieves the policy goals unlike this turd.
BINGO !!!
Jason, I think you’re wrong because you’re looking too short term. You want to make sure that we always vote in a steady number of Democrats so they can pass the kind of middling irrelevant crap that constitutes the business of the Senate in any given year.
I have a longer term perspective. I think significant legislative achievements happen once a decade or two. I count this HCR bill as a significant achievement compared to anything that’s happened in 40 years, although in the same breath I think it’s woefully insufficient – but still better than nothing. And why are we getting this rather than nothing? Why do Ben Nelson and Blance Lincoln think they have a better shot of keeping their seat if they stick with the Democrats and pass something? Because of 1994. When the party failed on health care and fucked their base with NAFTA, Democratic base voters stayed home. 16 years later, those voters’ actions still resonate and because of them, we will get this bill. If enough people stay home and don’t vote, they won’t be ignored – their silence will be DEAFENING.
I guess I don’t understand how a repeat of ’94 will make the Democrats more progressive. Seems to me that ’94 kicked off 14 years of rightward movement in the Democratic party that we’re only beginning to reverse.
They only repeat 94 if they fold and don’t come back with something OR if they pass a NAFTA corporate welfare equivalent of health reform.
If the dems take public opinion that the process has produced a poor product, that reform is necessary but this configuration does more harm than good, then that would be seen as a healthy political feedback cycle and if their product is politically popular, they can take a win.
They will not do this, because Obama is calling the shots and this is what he wants. Fair enough, but he must be punished politically for that at each and every opportunity until he changes his conduct to conform with his electoral platform.
Ah, now we’re getting somewhere. I agree Obama should feel pressure and anger for his lack of leadership. So how do we do that in a way that helps us towards our overall goal?
I believe that we have sufficient data points to indicate that a prudent planer would consider options in addition to working within the Democrat Party, if our overall goal is progressive change.
Each decision should be made on a case-by-case basis, but if no members of the progressive caucus are willing to take a stand against a suicidal health bill, then that really lowers the bar from all comers.
Those with power cannot hold those with less power to the highest standards as we try to figure out how to not get fucked by power. And, to quote Lenin (I’m an anarchist not a communist) in order to make an omelet you’ve got to break some eggs.
Yeah, political shock doctrine. I’m yet to be convinced it would work.
We’re getting shock doctrine now, no?
Not really, at least not like Bush practiced.
Yes, really, just like Bush practiced.
Nah, the Obama shock doctrine is completely different. It has sparkles and progressive rhetoric on it.
Indeed we are.
That is actually from a French proverb and has also been attributed to George Sand: On ne fait pas d’omelette sans casser des oeufs.
If they had passed the Senate bill – which thankfully looks like it won’t exactly be the case, let’s look at the alternatives: If the base came out anyway, the establishment would have said we can do anything to these people (mandate, excise tax, no public option), and these suckers will still come back to the ballot for more! If instead the base sat home, and 10 of the most Conservative Democrats lost their jobs, the remaining 50 Senators would be distributing papers detailing their long-standing support for the public option, and they would loudly proclaim their support for using reconciliation to get a public option. That’s how sitting out a vote can give you power.
I would have been all for your strategy if we had really strong leaders (we only have one, Pelosi) who could twist the arms of whoever we put in office and make them do the right thing. But that’s not the case, the outliers like Lieberman have all the control and they’re not unified with the Democratic direction. So we have to give up the vote anyone in, 60-vote strategy, and switch to a 50-vote strategy where we only reward people willing to take a strong stand.
I’ve got no problem with that strategy, actually. I’m fairly convinced that Democrats won’t keep 60 seats in 2010 in the Senate anyway. So yes, let’s take out the real moderates. I’m pretty sure that doesn’t mean flipping Ted Kennedy’s seat.
Perhaps the symbolic value of that seat is more important than the seat itself ?
I’m saying there’s a difference between losing a seat in, say, Arkansas, where that Democrat probably doesn’t do us much good anyway, and losing one in MA.
You never seem to address the issue of the Democratic Party’s responsibility in coming up with a crap corporatist candidate like Coakley. If MA is such a hotbed of liberalism, is this really the best they could do?
Bow before the hack parade!
See, I don’t think she’s that bad. A bit dry and a bad campaigner, but I’d put her squarely in heart of the Democratic party, maybe on par with Kerry.
Besides, MA isn’t quite the hotbed you think it is. They did elect Romney, for instance.
And that worked out splendidly, didn’t it?
Another martini, Lovee?
We’re talking your usual social liberal economic conservative democrat hack.
I’m not saying Kerry is great, but if you think everyone in the Democratic caucus deserves to lose their seat except maybe a select few, you definitely want to turn the Senate over the Republicans…
The same Kerry that campaigned on drug reimportation from Canada in 2004, and then voted against it just now to preserve the backroom deal with Pharma, right? That Kerry?
Well shoot. With a soundly beating “heart” of the Democratic party like that, we’ll get America on track in no time. Why do anything? Just don’t rock the boat and keep empowering ‘em with the only thing that matters to them, folks – voting for them to keep their jobs – and they’ll be super-motivated to give you a seat at the table.
Yeah, we’ll be at the table alright. We’re the main course!
With the symbolic value of the loss of Kennedy’s seat as a wake up call as well as the likely defeat of the HCR as now offered we would be offering an ultimatum, which we could actually deliver on, to the status quo.
They can still do the right thing and insist on a strong public option which house progressives promised to do .
It is not out of the question that if Obama agreed to this, Coakley would win as a result.
We have a golden opportunity here as citizens to offer up an ultimatum and we need someone like Jane Hamsler to deliver it !
Good. I don’t know enough about Coakley to offer a good opinion but I’d guess you’re right. We can’t get too trigger-happy lest we kill off all our own. These are the ones I think as of now it makes good sense not to vote for: Lieberman, Nelson, Lincoln, Landrieu, Bayh. Maybe a few more but we need most of the rest.
I’m thinking actually a better analogy would be that of cutting out a cancer in order to save the rest of the body .
That’s a good one, actually. And defeating Coakley is like cutting out the healthy kidney instead of the diseased one to save the body.
Coakley is a progressive ?
She’s not Bernie Sanders, but she’s not Joe Lieberman.
Jason you lost the argument when you advanced the idea that the democrats are assured your votes in any situation . Are you reassessing that position ?
That’s a misreading of what I said. Please read the article again, then come back when you’ve got something informed to say.
To Jason Rosenbaum: Don’t be a douche.
Your writing makes you sound like a condescending prick, which really takes away from your argument, such as it is.
I’d still like to hear how you reconcile political campaigning — which involves motivating volunteers, motivating donors, and getting voters to the polls — with your view that progressives disillusioned with a right-trending democratic party must hold their nose and vote for anyone with a D after their name.
It’s as if all the action in your model of the world is on the part of the individual voter while the politician and their platform is fixed. Which, quite frankly, is the opposite of the situational dynamics.
Just as you argue that the US system functionally mandates a 2 party system (which I agree is fact), the math for a triangulating politician or party is similar: Try to capture as much of the voters in the center as possible, without losing your wing/base.
What’s happening here is that Obama and the D leadership have gone far enough that they are losing their base. You are asking that people on the wing take a logical look at the structure of our political system and say it doesn’t make sense but to back the lesser evil… In a one-off transaction the logic is indisputable. And you may get a couple with that argument, but meanwhile, “you” are losing multiples of that number to disillusionment and/or frustration.
Sure, agreed.
I’d love to repeat ’94 — especially the economy of ’94. History doesn’t repeat itself.
The race in Masachusetts is a goldfen opportunity to send the democrats up for re election in Nov. a wake up call NOW before they damage themselves any further.
A brown win could kill healthcare
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/15/a-brown-win-could-kill-he_n_424910.html
No. My opinion is Coakley is losing because of the way she’s run her campaign much more than health care.
Didn’t ask you why she’s losing. The race is close, anything could change it. Do you think that if Obama and the Dems were to buckle under to public pressure and reconfigure this bill accordingly, that such a move would shift votes for or against Coakley or not at all?
I don’t think it would make much of a difference, no, especially not at this late a date. Besides, Brown would oppose whatever Obama did, so it doesn’t much change his “I’ll be the 41st vote” dynamic.
This is why Democrats continue to fuck up, that they don’t realize that in a statistically even race, that they can use their power in government to influence the outcome. If they wanted to, that is.
Imagine, w/o that 60th vote, we get to hear more of “we just need that critical 60th vote in the Senate to overcome Republican intransigence.”
Obama probably WANTS Brown to win so he has cover for not performing.
Jason, do you teach politics at a community college or something. Your article is pure sheee-ite!
Come on, I was able to see past the “lesser-evilism” argument when I was still a political infant (and I’m kinda thick in the head).
Either you are completely lost or you are a shill…I am hoping you are a shill, because being lost sucks
So how exactly does helping Brown defeat Coakley get us what we want? Love to hear an answer from the master.
How does a Coakley win get us what we want?
How’s that the standard? A Senator Brown will surely make things worse. I’m pretty sure that’s the judgment that needs to be made.
How? Cooties?
What do you mean how? He’ll work against choice. He’ll work against marriage equality (which you might not have a problem with, I guess). He’ll work against accountability for banks. Says so, right on his website.
Yeah, thank heavens the Democrats kept all of that anti-choice rigamarole out of the healthcare bill. Special kudos to Stupak for that. And hasn’t Obama already repealed the Defense of Marriage Act? And talk about a trustbuster, Teddy Roosevelt couldn’t lay a glove on Obama. I mean the differences between Democrats and Republicans are really, really major. You would see this if you had a better microscope.
I’m not arguing that they’re huge, only that they’re there.
The Democrats worked against choice, my representative, the Speaker, she’s a pro-choice woman you might have heard, from the most pro choice district in
the country, banged the damn gavel on that shit.
Obama opposes same sex marriage. You know that I support same sex marriage, I’m just concerned that the campaign not do harm elsewhere.
Obama has taken no steps to impose accountability on banks. Indeed, much of the GOP base supports accountability for banks, esp in MA.
The spell is broken, dude.
Pelosi banged the gavel on health care, sure, but has worked and passed pro-choice initiatives her entire career. This is about more than one bill.
That gavel was a knife in the heart of the Democrat coalition.
Seriously, Jason, is there no level too low for you to bow?
Could you ever imagine a GOP speaker banging the gavel on an expansion of federal coverage for abortion?
Not sure about abortion, but Reagan expanded Medicare more than any other President…
Abortion is the totem. So things are not necessarily that bad under Republicans, not all the time, not on everything, at least?
The point is Republicans and Democrats sometimes do things at odds with their base. It’s not a Democratic-only feature.
The Democrats exclusively fuck their base and occasionally toss us a crumb. The Republicans exclusively fuck the Democrats’ base and occasionally toss us a crumb.
What part of this asymmetrical dynamic are you missing? OK, its symmetrical in that we get fucked in both cases.
I don’t disagree, but your strategy for changing that dynamic won’t work.
I note you ducked the question: How does a Coakley win get us what we want?
There is no logic to your position. It would seem to be a fundamental that a voter should expect a candidate they voted for to fight for what that voter wanted, but with you this is apparently not the case. From what I have gleaned from your responses so far is that at best we should only expect a choice between a lesser of two evils, that it is sufficient that they use progressive rhetoric even if they never deliver on any of it, and that these are the reasons we should support Democrats. Real Alice in Wonderland stuff there.
Come on Hugh, it’s not hard. A Coakley win might not move us forward too much, but a Brown win most definitely will move us backwards. It’s not a hard decision, though it probably doesn’t make anyone feel good.
cadence, cadence, cadence
Cadence, Cadence, Cadence
CADENCE, CADENCE, CADENCE
RESOLUTION, RESOLUTION, RESOLUTION
Resolution, Resolution, Resolution
resolution, resolution, resolution
This is probably the best opportunity the progressives have ever been offered !
A symbolic loss or win , a symbolic ultimatum and the president’s health bill in the cross hairs !
That I might believe, actually, though he’s be fooling himself if he thinks that’ll work.
The mistake the Democrats made was educating people.
It all depends on what meaning of “works” works for you.
This thread has been an interesting debate. 236 comments! Clearly this will be the popular subject matter for the new year:
The best way to ensure real change:
1. Blindly vote Democratic regardless what they do?
2. Reward or punish individual Democrats with your votes based on how they governed?
That’s a pretty bad false choice, and not anything like what I’ve presented here. Come on.
jason,
That’s exactly how I see this. What’s the best way to actually bring meaningful change? You either continue to vote along party lines — which is what you’re advocating for — or you strategically punish/reward candidates based on how they governed.
Would you still vote for one of the obstructionist Blue Dogs if they were running in your state, and there was no primary contender, but there was a progressive independent running?
No, please read the article then try your comment again.
I expressly advocated for changing the party from the inside, which is not the same as voting along party lines. Specifically, it means having a fight with leadership in primaries.
And then voting for any democrat on the ticket .
I did read the entire article. I got that part about focusing on primary challenges and I agree with you on that. I’m just throwing out a hypothetical. Let’s say you couldn’t get a decent primary challenger to do it. Which brings you back to my following question:
A simple yes or no would do here .
Depends. There are some select circumstances where an independent to the left can win a seat. See, say, Bernie Sanders in VT. If they’ve got a real shot, as in money, momentum, a good message, a good campaign, then sure, I could vote for them. But I’d never vote for them just to send a message.
I think that you and I are mostly in agreement in that primary challenges should be the priority here.
But in that hypothetical I presented, I couldn’t vote for a Joe Lieberman or a Ben Nelson. To vote for a third party candidate that might result in the defeat of Republicans masquerading as Democrats with actual Republicans wouldn’t do much damage.
But the message it would send would be significant: “Don’t obstruct progressive initiatives or you risk losing your next election.”
Well, you wouldn’t have to vote for a Lieberman because you’d have a viable Democrat to vote for instead. As for Nelson, move to Nebraska and then let me know how you feel. Not that I’d feel too bad if Nelson lost his seat. I’d see him lose much sooner than Coakley, that’s for sure.
Anything we can to do stop the Health Insurance Corporate Welfare Act of 2010 should be on the table for discussion.
It is bad enough that the Democrats use their political monopoly to control the terrain left of right, but they cannot control our imaginations or our political actions.
How do we deliver the message ? Can we get firedoglake to give us an up or down as a potential spokes person ?
Letters to the editor with calls for contributions to the campaign in Mass in all 50 states, blog posts with same and letters to representatives are all good .
Someone like jane hamsler making the appeal on TV would be a coup de gras .
ect…
You wouldn’t support non progressive democrats in an election ? Your playing a word game . I also said I would vote for progressives in the primaries and support progressive democratic candidates in the elections.
Oh and in case you hadn’t noticed, the majority of the posters are disagreeing with you.
I agreed with you right up to the last part .
Why vote in a blue dog when they will be voting against the progressive agenda like the republicans will ? Why not offer the threat of voting for third party candidates or staying home unless democrats throw up more progressive candidates ?
This contains som toxic rhetoric.
Turn that on its head. The people that didnt vote for Nader 2000, but instead enabled another round of the usual, phony Democrat vs Republican political theatre, are the ones that should be held accountable for sending the country backwards. Especially the ones that sort of get the big picture but still allows themselves to be used as political cannon fodder.
Few third parties just spring into existence out of nowhere and celebrates sweeping victories instantly. Its all about establishing trust and a steady buzz, long term. And when the current ruling class demonstrates its inability to rule and its corruption, as the Republicans AND Democrats have done these last years, thats when a third party can become of real significance. Imagine if there had been a nationwide, well established third party to take political advantage of the Wall Street crash and bailout and the health care debacle? The US political elite would confront a real challenge then. A challenge internal criticism from within their own parties, that they effectively control, just cannot compare to.
The only thing that’s going to work is to bring a credible threat on the Democrats that will feed them a shit sandwich on election day.
Ah, so there are cases when the Democrat losing won’t risk “everything” and make “everything” worse? Just not this time, just not now, and just not here?
I’m not sure that it’s hard to understand there’s a difference between losing a seat in AR and losing a seat in MA.
Prestige?
I’m not sure you’re thinking very clearly.
A Dem in Arkansas is much more likely to be a Conservadem given the political demographics of the state. Therefore, I’m much less worried about losing them, as they were much less help anyway.
You mean like Dianne Feinstein?
I mean like Blanche Lincoln.
I’m here in CA and we’re a pretty progressive state, almost 2/3 dems in the legislature, mostly dem in the house,mostly dem at the state level, all dem in the senate. It rarely gets bluer than here, yet Dianne Feinstein?
CA isn’t nearly as Blue as you think. Look at your governor.
How did our governor get elected again? Do you want to plumb the story of Gray Davis as precursor to Barack Obama?
If Feinstein is as good as the Dems can do for California, then that really speaks to the disconnect.
Just wanted to say that I enjoyed the discussion but that I have to go.
Thanks Hugh, see you round soon!
And on fighting for electoral reform, do you really expect any assistance from a Democrat Party which has bent over backwards to use election law to exclude contenders from the ballot?
Instead of taking the football and going elsewhere on our terms, you’d send us with a fake football, somewhere, over there, to find you all a shrubbery and get back to you. It!
Electoral reform would be a hard slog through entrenched interests, but if you start local, you can do it. In fact, some localities already use alternate voting systems.
Way ahead of you, we’ve had IRV here for 6 years, I’m not impressed, just trades off one set of cost/benefits for another.
In partisan races, qualification is more of a barrier than electoral system. Building qualifications tends to happen at lower, nonpartisan levels. And that is where the local Democrat parties gatekeep. You don’t make it to the partisan races with experience, that is, remotely qualified, unless you have the party blessing.
Add in something like Fusion Voting in New York, and you have the beginnings of a workable system, no?
I think those Democrats who obstructed health care HAVE GOT to be punished. Primary challenges would be best. But if they aren’t possible, then you just have to vote independent. It’s so important that the Democratic Party is sent that message.
I want real, meaningful change, and that’s the only way to make it happen.
Those two things are at odds. One helps you win your goals, one doesn’t.
That’s not true. They both certainly help you to win your goals.
A primary challenger threatens the obstructionist’s reelection. If he loses, the rest in the party learned a lesson. If he squeaks by the challenger, he and the rest in the party still learn a lesson — they risk losing their otherwise shoe-in re-election when they obstruct progressive principles.
In the event there’s no primary challenger, then voting for a third party candidate sends the very same messages as above to both that Senator and to the rest of the party, that there’s a price to pay for obstructing progressive principles — that being they risk losing their otherwise shoe-in reelection.
Without a primary challenger, your voting for the obstructionist sends no message. He’ll still obstruct and vote largely with the Republicans.
Your primary assumption is that Bush WON because of Nader. The facts are that he stole it through a partisan SC decision. Even a Third World country would have redone the Florida election for its irregularities and its importance in determining the presidency. But the lawyers on the Republican side trumped the lawyers of the Dems in this case. Old Jewish ladies who mistakenly voted for Buchanan (not Nader) in Miami would have liked to retake their vote without the chads this time. Don’t blame Nader and people who vote with a conscience for that one.
First of all, I voted for Nader in 2000. Given those choices, it was the right one. Gore was nearly as much a captive of corporations as Bush, at least if one parsed his pronouncements and his legislative record at the time. Anyone who blames Nader for Gore’s defeat is not talking about reality. Gore started the campaign with a commanding lead, and lost it. Al Gore is to blame for Al Gore’s defeat. Since then, Gore has become his own man, at least on the issue of ecology. That’s great, and maybe if he ran in the future I’d vote for him.
So, I don’t find the labeling persuasive, any more than labeling anything that controls the market “socialist”, or anything that calls people “weak on defense” because they’re against ridiculous wars.
Nevertheless, what we’re living now is proof that Nader was right; corporations call the tune in DC. The rest of us are just along for the ride. Continuing to vote for people, and worse yet support them, when they are captive to those interests is not going to fix this.
Only by taking away the power of at least some of the people who have not been doing what we need them to do will anyone in Washington learn that they have to respect us and do what is in our best interests. As long as we continue to be captive to this notion that things will be worse if we vote against the people who are screwing us, we will never be treated any better than we are now.
The only power you have in a negotiation is the power to walk away. If you won’t use it, you have no power. Until progressives start embracing that notion, they’re not serious, and few DC politicians will take us seriously, if any.
(BTW, I’ve been arguing about this in another thread, and am about to walk away from the computer. I suggest you check here for things I’ve probably already written in answer to what you’d write if I were still here.)
Exactly.
Nader being right and it being a good idea to vote for him are two very different things.
Good post, Jason. I’m rethinking my “ill wind” comment from another thread.
You can change that abusive spouse, it is your fault for being abused because you did not work hard enough to change that abusive spouse.
More political advice from Jason Rosenbaum, eh?
Mmmm. I guess George Carlin is a Naderite. Not bad company.
BTW, how is that Public Option strategy working out?
Public option, oh please, oh please, oh please, oh please, oh nevermind.
Jason, you’re urging us to throw it all behind strategies that at best nibble around the margins to dance around the problems.
I guess the fundamental contradiction in Jason’s argument is, what happens when the Democrat IS your opponent?
It’s really all about conditioning our elected officials to legislate in a way that will surely piss off entrenched interests, by giving them real demonstrative incentive to do so.
Got evidence that this has ever worked, even once?
Connecticut, kinda. These are blunt instruments that can only be played so often because the time, place and manner of engagement are not predictable.
Marcos! I’m sorry about my comment way up yonder. It was intended for Jason. I apologize if you thought it was for you.
No on this issue, you represent the voice of serious political organizing exprience and I was actually supporting you. Doh!
CT played out how it should have, I think. There was a primary challenge. We won. We didn’t come up in the election, but it was close. Later marcos!
Evidence being that if someone is punished, or is made to feel threatened politically, for having behaved a certain way, they tend to change their behavior.
Most economic theories are based on these very kinds of incentives. It’s more or less a given that people behave in ways that reward them, and don’t behave in ways that punish them.
A good example would be when I drive my car I know that if I drive 55 in a 25, I’ll probably get a ticket, have to pay a big fine, will probably have to go to court for reckless driving, and my insurance premiums will rise.
So I drive the speed limit.
Give me an example. This dynamic has been going on since this country was founded. Surely there must be one from political history?
I don’t have an example from political history for you. Whether one exists or not, I don’t know, but I think that’s irrelevant.
It’s not. I have many examples of this dynamic hurting progressives. You have not one that says it helps. On the balance, the evidence says I’m right.
A primary challenger and a third party candidate are serving the same purpose. If behavior is affected by one, then there’s no reason it shouldn’t be affected by the other.
Sure, child. In fact, there are multiple instances of when this has worked — on both the right and left sides of the political spectrum.
In 1912, voting third party caused the Democrat, Woodrow Wilson, to beat Republican incumbent William Howard Taft. Progressive Party candidate Theodore Roosevelt also came in ahead of Taft. More recently, in 1992, third party candidate H. Ross Perot split the right-wing vote and caused Democrat Bill Clinton to win against Republican incumbent George H.W. Bush. The effect would continue the trend of pushing Democrats further to the political right, as the growing right-wing movement used its considerable power to force the major political parties to the right — which is exactly what movement politics is all about, and why it’s a proven method.
By contrast, you’re advocating for no movement politics on the left side of the spectrum, thus ensuring that the far right will continue to maintain its stranglehold on America for generations to come. But then, you’re perfectly content with that. You love it when your fellow right-wingers win.
Thanks Michael, you just proved my point with those great examples. My point is voting for third party helps the people you least want to see in office. All those Perot voters who though GW Bush was too much of a wishy-washy fiscal conservative ended up electing (for them) liberal Clinton.
As for the long term movement of pushing the whole system to the right, I’m not sure I agree. Bush Jr. didn’t run as an arch conservative, and arguably wasn’t galvanized that way until 9/11, so I’m not sure you can say Perot’s people pushed Republicans to the right. It was more that the right united against Clinton and Gore, in my reading of history.
In fact, if anything has pushed Republicans to the right it’s the obsessive amount of infrastructure building within the party that wealthy right wingers have done. All those institutes and think tanks and religious organizations have an effect.
I disproved your point. You know this. But you’re too far gone into self-delusion to accept the truth. And the truth is this: subjugating progressives to the Democratic Party hasn’t gotten the necessary change this nation needs, nor will it ever. Progressives must reorganize the movement and make the Democrats (or some other political party) subservient to us. This is what’s happening right now in Vermont, Washington, and New York — in spite of your attempts to bully people into doing otherwise. You approached your argument from a position in which you required of yourself absolutely no facts, in which you felt no qualms about insulting readers at every opportunity, in which you decided to be contradictory, and in which you have been nothing but hostile. All you’ve managed to do, boy, is embarrass yourself.
Okay, wonderful discourse, gonna head bike up the hill to Bernal Heights to take care of a friends’ cat and visit other hill dwellers who just got engaged.
Progressives must offer an ultimatum NOW within the next few hours to the democratic establishment about the race in Massachusetts ! If Jane gets on board we have a spokesperson !!!
A show of power is what the progressive movement needs to make waves and the symbolic value of Kennedy’s seat popular discontent plus the democratic candidate trailing slightly are all made to order .
This is a one time opportunity !
Alright, it’s been fun, gotta run folks. Some good discussion here, some not so much, but glad folks are learning.
Oops. I posted before I refreshed. Nice debate, Jason.
A couple of comments for you on this, Jason.
First, this is probably the most condescending post I’ve seen at FDL.
Second, imo the Nader run of 2000 so traumatized movement Democrats that they have not learned anything from it.
The Gore defeat of 2000 was, to movement Democrats, much like 9/11 was to much of America. So much easier to demonize Nader, than to understand why folks voted for him, and to intelligently adapt the party to that reality.
And, the Democratic party may be preparing to go there all over again in 2010. Lesson unlearned.
Rather than condemning folks for voting their conscience (which you have not done here, but many movement Democrats do, when it comes to anything Nader)–or sermoninzing in the most condescending of ways–why doesn’t the Democratic party just improve its product?
Ding.
Besides nobody can tell me that anything I do in the political sphere is irrational or not well thought out. Almost enough to make me do the opposite of the writer out of spite, but I am not that irrational.
In essence this post is no different from the DK trolls and others who bash us for not being sufficiently deferential to Dear Leader and the rest of the Democratic establishment.
Yellow dog Democrat meant something else in the 1930s. Today it only refers to voters who are stained yellow from allowing the party to constantly piss all over them.
One reason I luv you is that you make me laugh. Another reason I luv you is that you make me try to be more clever than I am. (((ratfood)))
Thanks, I was feeling kind of cantankerous and then you went and warmed my little heart.
(((eCAHN)))
Warmin’ a ratfood’s heart. That’s mighty powerful stuff.
I consistently observe a split between progressives and Democrats when it comes to this issue. Look, Gore’s election in 2000 was his to lose. He was the incumbent and the economy was good, and he was up against an opponent with the IQ of a ham sandwich. If Gore could not win he did not deserve to. He decided to distance himself from Clinton, which arguably cost him the election, so why isn’t the persistent meme “Democrats Need to Stop Fearing Republican Voters”? Gore ran from Clinton because Clinton had been successfully smeared by the Right – so how is that Nader’s problem?
The fact is, the Democrats and the Republicans are too insular, too conservative, and too fucking wealthy to properly serve the nation or the public. Look what voting Democrat has gotten us this time around – DOMA is still in place, the bankers are laughing their asses off at the public, and the health care reform package is a joke. Yeah Obama is better than McCain would have been – that’s a big compliment. I’m better looking than Buddy Hackett, doesn’t mean I’m going to be a model, does it?
Don’t tell the VOTERS not to “go Nader” until you can get the fucking establishment Democrats to stop “going Reagan.”
Jason How is it then, Jesse Ventura won in MN? He took 34 of the 60% of MInnesotans who voted. that is 20% of Mn that were able to elect him. POP (Pissed of Progressives) Time to stand up and shake the fear and do it.
ps on that. people also need to be asking why it was that obama got 335,000 more votes in Mn than Al Franken got. That was progressives who did not vote for him and as this plays out and the nation gets to know Al the way the progressives of MN know him, you will all understand.
I fail to see how a schoolmarmish lecture is going to change anyone’s mind, rather than just spawn the kind of unproductive flame wars that have dominated this thread. “Losing” on health care might well be the best thing that could happen to the Democrats in November, but in the end, tea leaves are tea leaves. As Harry Truman once said, “Nobody likes a smarty.” And liberals have damn good reason to dislike smarties telling us what to do, at long last.
FDL commenters aren’t going to change the outcome of the MA Senate race, for Pete’s sake.
“NADERITE” = ONE WHO REFUSES TO KISS JOE LIEBERMAN’S ASS & REFUSES TO SUPPORT THOSE WHO DO
LIEBERITE = ONE WHO WILLINGLY KISSES JOE LIEBERMAN’S ASS & SUPPORTS THOSE WHO DO
NOTED LIEBERITES = AL GORE, BARACK OBAMA, HARRY REID, BILL & HILLARY CLINTON…
AND JASON ROSENBAUM.
FUCK YOU VERY MUCH, LIEBERITES!
Unfortunate when the title and first sentence of a post are based on a flawed premise.
Presumably the “Naderite” epithet is a reference to the mistaken belief that Floridians who cast their ballots for Ralph Nader in 2000 put Bush in office.
Wrong.
Gore won in 2000. Ineffective legal representation and a disgracefully partisan Supreme Court put Bush in office.
Jason, I believe you could have made your point without employing fallacious scapegoating.
Let’s not forget Joe Lieberman going on ‘Meet the Press’ and saying to count military ballot stuffing.
And yet the Lieberite Democratic Party continued to suck his Droopy Dog balls.
Good grief. Are we adult enough to have this conversation without the personal invectives?
Many of us are, some aren’t. Welcome to the human race.
The longer I do this, the less faith I have, but thanks for the support.
BTW, wasn’t that a great Book Salon today?
Considering I was the only commenter (almost) I thought it was great! Why do you think there were so few commenters?
I thought that one looked like it would be interesting. I would like just once to have actually read the book beforehand.
I voted for change in 2006 and 2008.
And all I see is more of the same.
So yes, I will vote third party if there is an option.
Or I’ll vote “Mickey Mouse” if there isn’t.
If you want to stay up on the stage and tap dance to the music like Mr. Bo Jangles in the hopes of getting some nickels and dimes tossed at your feet go right ahead. That’s not the kind of change I’m looking for.
Gesh Jason…. you act like politics is some sort of masturbatory behavior… I can assure you for me there has been NOTHING ever the least bit pleasant about the politics in this god forsaken country for at least the last 3 decades! We don’t have a two party system you MORON we have a two headed ONE Party system both vying to see who can screw the American public the WORST! I SAY FUCK THE GOD DAMN DEMOCRATS and the horse they rode in on. GIve me grid-lock over their terrorist SHIT antics any day. GO BROWN
you are all full of shit, all of you
Luvya let’s lunch. :)
who hoo!
Have to rethink. Noticed it’s on the Seminal, not the front page of Firedoglake.
For someone who’s only been around FDL for a few weeks, you sure do seem to know an awful lot about how things work around here.
1. Jason is not a troll. He is the manager of the Seminal and can say what he likes whenever he likes.
2. I replied to you earlier, but if you insist on continuing down this road, your time at FDL will probably end up about the same way your time has at the other blogs that you are so proud to admit have banned you.
It’s your choice.
I’ve been around Firedoglake for just over six months.
I had to change my alias because OFA-type assholes over at Daily Kos decided that the best way to silence me was to research who I am and publicly display personal information about me.
I have donated hundreds of dollars to Firedoglake and to Blue America candidates in the past six months alone.
Jason’s arguments are ridiculous. I’ll ignore them.
I voted for Bill Clinton. I voted for Al Gore. I voted for John Kerry.
Over the years, I donated money to the DNC, the DSCC, the DCCC, and to Hillary Clinton and Harold Ford, Jr.
In 2006, I not only contributed to Harold Ford, Jr., I voted for him. Not only that, I nearly got fired from my job for having a discussion about him and having that discussion reported to my boss (can’t give more details than that, but I seriously almost got fired for talking about Harold Ford, Jr. at work).
My point is that I’ve followed Jason’s lame advice my entire adult life. He’s totally fucking wrong. It’s not about one candidate winning one or another election. We have to think much bigger than that if we’re going to effect change.
My point is that I’m not a Naderite. Jason has no right to dismiss my views by labeling it “Naderite.”
My point is that I am pissed off. Jason has no right to dismiss my views with his lame efforts to whip out lame rhetorical nonsense like “you’re not voting for Coakley only because you’re pissed off.”
My point is that Jason being a moderator at the Seminal is something that Firedoglake needs to reconsider. Jane knew that he was paid by HCAN and that he is no better than an OFA-type, but until now it hasn’t been a big problem.
My point is that this is only the beginning of what we should expect to see throughout 2010. Jason should not be allowed to put this shit up on the front page of Firedoglake. If someone else decided to put this up on the frong page, then they seriously need to explain themselves.
Are you a Massachusetts voter? If not, your comments are just academic.
Is Jane an Arkansas voter (Ross, Lincoln), or a Nevada voter (Reid), or an Illinois voter (Eshoo), or a… because, if not, by your logic, all her powerful commentary about members of Congress would be just academic.
TarheelDem, I respect you. Please don’t lower yourself by talking nonsense.
Let’s presume for a moment that Jane is very aware of what various hats Jason may wear.
Let’s also agree that you didn’t like what he had to say a day or so ago.
So…are you going to continue to beat this same drum, or presume that Jane and her management team will resolve this issue?
Cuz frankly, calling the Seminal site owner a troll on his own dang site it going to result in the mods removing your comments.
It’s your choice.
Jason owns the Seminal? Not sure I understand what this means. Regardless, I’m objecting to this crap being on the front page of Firedoglake.
Frankly, removing my comments would only result in me very unhappily leaving Firedoglake and explaining to Jane exactly why I was reluctantly forced to do so.
Btw, let me provide you with a brief summary of what Jason did the other day. Brb.
Please spare me yet another diatribe.
I’ve already read all those comments and you made your point.
How long are you going to keep beating that drum?
Not even close to finished. I’ll fight Jason’s assholishness with all the energy I’ve been fighting any other enabler of sellouts who tells Americans that they’re stupid or idiotic for not voting for any and all candidates because they have a “D” after their names.
Unless Jane tells me that she’s happy with this crap on the front page of Firedoglake, this crap that is the opposite of everything that Jane works so hard for, I’ll fight it.
A URL is not a URI. A site is generally defined by the URI. If FDL is defined as it’s URI which is a combination of the protocol and the domain name then the site is not owned by Jason or any other poster. A site is never the URL unless the URL and the URI are the same. More importantly the software, whether PHP, Java, Ruby, Erlang or even Perl defines the actual interpretation of the URL and it’s output. Long story short – this URL is not a site. Feel free to look up the terms.
I am very familiar with the terms, and Jason manages the Seminal as part of the larger community of FDL blogs.
So what’s your point?
Simply that you used the term site incorrectly.
Well dang, that is totally my bad.
While I was trying to bring the “site” back up from some server issues, apparently some people decided that the “manager” of an FDL “partner blog” was the devil incarnate.
Is that a more accurate description of this moment in time?
Who said anything like “devil incarnate”?
No, Jason is just a Lieberite imp.
To the contrary, RBG, it is you who are out of line. Braying about someone’s credibility because they are in a position of authority does not trump their clear conflict of interest.
And as for this Jason character – not the brightest fellow if you ask me – his initial condescending post followed up by his nasty little personal attacks does not seem to indicate that he’s the manager of anything. Or that if he is, he should be removed forthwith. His behaviour on this score is simply unacceptable.
And quite frankly, he owes a bunch of people a personal apology for his very personal and unbecoming remarks. That’s not politics, that goes to his posting style.
Don’t defend his behaviour because of who he is.
Why does it matter? If it were my site and someone called me a troll, I’d figure either the readers could figure out for themselves that I’m not or they couldn’t, but it’s not something to ban someone for. The commenter just looks like an idiot if he’s wrong. I wouldn’t get all worked up about being called a political idiot, either, so I’m not outraged at Jason’s comments. I think anyone in a position to moderate should be more polite instead of less, but I don’t know if others get away with calling people idiots on the seminal or not. Why not just enforce the rules equally? Either both are being over the line or neither are, it looks like from here.
i agree. but have you noticed that when a front pager calls commenters names, the commenters are then given more leaway in responding? not as much as the person who started it, but still i do notice a change in what the mods permit. my take is that they are trying to do what they can to be fair. (((mods))). otoh, i’m still pissed off at whoever banned sisterkenny, but that wasn’t this thread. and thankfully it wasn’t typical.
What happened with sisterkenny?
I was a moderator on a religious discussion site that got pretty ugly at times so I have a lot of sympathy for mods. I don’t always agree with what they do, but I don’t assume they have bad motives. I remember many a time I was trying to do my best while posters were convinced I was either evil or incompetent. What are you gonna do but be the bigger person and the most willing to extend courtesy even where not reciprocated?
I kind of feel sorry for everyone when a situation like this one happens because Jason’s not a total jerk but what he’s doing is bound to cause problems and he doesn’t seem to want to back down even a little. It’s always easier when things are black and white.
it wasn’t just her. but as with my comment @654, i’ll leave it at that, other than the requests i’ve repeatedly made for a attempt to right that wrong (here, here, here)
As I responded earlier to one of your comments I will follow it a bit as well.
You are completely correct that a moderator has a responsibility to avoid attacking everyone else that presents a contrary position to his.
My take is that the argument positions right now are around some young people who think they have a plan based upon giving in just a little, just this one time and some older people, like me, that have seen that it doesn’t work. Giving in often just means that the people you conceded to expect you to keep doing it.
My take on this argument is that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results would make me the textbook definition of insane.
For the record Jason, the dems left me I didn’t leave them. I worked my ass off for them, I have protested, registered voters, wrote letters, gave money I didn’t have, knocked on doors…. I am done! I don’t owe my vote to anyone.
Doing the same thing over and over again is progressives waiting to get engaged after a filing deadline and then complaining about the list of candidates. For Congress, it is very clear what it takes: a candidate plus around 170,000 votes. If you can’t network and organize to persuade that many people to turn out, then you are stuck with voting for the lesser of two evils.
It’s about fielding candidates and turning out voters. Otherwise whether you vote or not, you will never see your policies become enacted. And continuing to complain about that is also doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
You expect folks not to complain about being lied to over and over… Not going to happen.
No. Folks are human.
I expect little. But I do know that there is a way to get political power and that is to get the votes. And folks are not setting up to field candidates and get the votes to change the Congress. They are waiting for the Democratic establishment to do it and hand it to them. And then when it doesn’t happen they go and allow a Republican to win as “punishment”. Now, that is insane.
Speaking as a former member of a dem central committee, that is much easier said than done. It is increasingly difficult to find people who are willing. And I think it’s unfair that you blame people for complaining about lying politicians. And then suggest they keep voting for the lessser of two liars.
If Obama would have been truthful about his real plans once in office, he would not be POTUS today. There is virtually no daylight between he and HRC.
Edit: The county I live in is blood red. It’s a bitch getting a dem elected around here.
If you can’t get good people to run and all you have on election day is two liars, you have three choices: vote for one liar, vote for the other liar, or not vote and have the winning liar win. It’s fine to complain. It lets off steam. But it doesn’t change policy.
Only getting good candidates filed, trained, equipped, and supported with a strong base can change policy.
If Obama was not in office today, either Hillary Clinton or John McCain would have been. Take your pick or don’t and settle for the winner even if it’s McCain. There are not other choices when you get to election day. And the party establishment is certainly not going to deliver your candidate for you nor are they likely to put an effort into delivering the votes for a challenging progressive candidate.
Yes, I know about disappointment. It’s name is Larry Kissell. A great populist campaign; lousy votes on healthcare and cap-and-trade. To his credit, he ducked Stupak-Pitts.
Jim Costa has voted more with the repubikans than with the dems. Like Orhama, he talked a good game during the election.
We did all the things you talked about to get this guy elected. He still screwed us over.
Did you pick him out of nowhere as a candidate? Did you vet him? Those are generally the steps that progressive don’t get to participate in. I’m suggesting that we find our own candidates, vet them, and run them. And if they lie to us, find someone else the next time. Create the progressive organization to run the candidate instead of having the candidate create his/her own organization. Too often progressives get involved too late in the process and are presented with a fait accompli. That is where the Hobson’s choice arises.
Also, are you working to change the political climate in the district to move candidates in a more progressive direction. Changing the political climate what Republicans did to the New Deal Democrats in the South. They converted them into populist Jessecrats. Candidate changed from running as “progressive” candidates to “conservative” candidates in about 8 years. It can work in reverse.
Of course we did. He’s been in Local politics for years. I have no idea what happened when he arrived in Washington .
I get what you are saying but in this area you can talk about creating all you want. It’s not easy.
The political climate in the district is not going to change anytime soon. You have very wealthy farmers that are not going to give a rats ass about anything progressive and you have the people who work for them and continualy vote against their own interests. If their way of life isn’t enough to convince them I don’t know what it will take. We have 13%+ unemployment and despite the fact that we knock on doors and conduct a year around registration drive it has done no good. We also have fire and police and corrections voting red. It’s very complicated, there is no one way to accomplish the task at hand.
Its about not alienating your base if you expect to be the first past the post.
This assumes the base to be passive observers. Now, that is the insane part of the process. The base has the power to pick candidates; most are just to busy with other things to do it.
He’s not only attacking people who disagree with him, he’s doing it in an extremely rude and condescending way.
Jason’s behaviour has been inappropriate, and his manager credentials notwhistanding, he deserves censure or at least a strike.
I won’t vote for some third-party loser who’s going to throw the election to the wingnuts.
If you don’t learn from the past, you get to make the same f*cking mistakes all over again.
Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of people who refuse to learn.
Yep, speaking of refusing to learn, many voted for Hopey Changey. What have they learned?
To bend over and take it without blubbering, apparently.
I don’t agree with your theory. I don’t see any substantive difference between Democrats and Republicans. Especially when it comes to someone like Obama or any of the so called progressive Democrats in the Senate. I feel it will take things getting much worse before we will see the emergence of viable candidates that actually represent the American people or the promise of our democracy. If that means sitting home or voting for third party candidates so be it.
Sorry its Ted’s Seat if we are worrying about Ted’s seat they don’t get much Bluer than that. The Dems are in trouble. We won the last election because we really were motivated we believed Obama has given us no reason to be motivated. We can’t fake enthusiasm.
Enthusiasm gets people to the voting booth in when they have the flu, in snow storms and Tornado weather. Don’t ask us to support Obama in many close races only a 3% or more drop in voter turnout from us can swing an election.
Face it unless unemployment drops to below 7% come election day I know lots of us will have better things to do on election day.
This is an off year election voter turnout does tend to drop even when President is popular. We were going to lose some seats anyway.
Obama’s only hope is Jobs or the GOP is hated worse than he is.
So you tell Obama start attacking the GOP if he wants to win! I have been doing my part for the cause a while now. Now its Obama’s turn to get on the stick.
The way I see it:
If you are in Massachusetts, your choices are vote for Coakley, vote for Brown, or accept the winner by sitting. Those are it. I would advocate voting for Coakley, because Brown winning Teddy Kennedy’s seat would create a difficult media narrative to overcome in 2010.
If you are not in Massachusetts and you want to vote for a real progressive, find a candidate you like, get them filed as a Democratic candidate, and turn out 60,000 votes for them in the primary and 175,000 votes for them in the general election. If you are looking for a candidate for Senate, check the past turnout, divide by half and add 10% for growth in population.
The question facing progressives is how much they really want to win.
You want to win? Take down a conservative, even Tea Bagger Republican, with a highly progressive Democrat or democratic socialist who will caucus with the Democrats. That changes the narrative and make fearful Democrats take notice.
Playing the third party spoiler. Not so much. The establishment, Republican and Democratic, can ignore you. However if you win, you can then negotiate who you caucus with; you have the power of Joe Lieberman.
Everything else is just posturing.
Jason’s been here a while.
He isn’t a troll, he’s correct about this, and I’m tired of
the newcomers (and some who have been here a while)
who are bitching and moaning because
we aren’t changing everything immediately so that
they can have sparkly ponies for their next Christmas.
That’s exactly the same as the wingnuts on the other side.
There’s some truth in this.
As delighted as we would all be to set ourselves on fire because we are pissed at how 2008 turned out, the end will not be satisfying.
Jason has more than proven that he’s a troll.
In the case of Firedoglake, a troll is someone who doesn’t read the posts on the front page well enough to realize how badly the establishment Democrats have screwed over the American people.
In the case of Firedoglake, a troll is someone who comes here to tell us we’re idiots (yes, Jason did exactly that yesterday).
Everyone, ignore him like you would any troll and he’ll just wither away.
Don’t feed the troll.
S
C
R
O
L
L
(or, in this case, move on to another thread.)
shoo
Are you going to reply to my comments or just continue to rant about stuff you know nothing about?
Thanks for your advice. I read the headline and intended to make an attempt at reasonable argument on the opposing side but it is clear scrolling up through the positions and Jason’s constant attacks on other people’s comments that his is not interested in a rational dialog nor does he care about other people’s concerns. The picture of a kid that imagines he knows it all. Trolls are a waste of time.
Yup Wah Wah Wah
I ‘m not getting my own way , so I’m gonna tip the board over and quit.
It would help if you could provide proof of your incipit adulthood before presenting a position.
But…but…isn’t there a pony in there somewhere?
No, just another pile of horseshit you can believe in…
if you’re a fool
Then consider me a fool, but I’d rather you not say it to my face.
Exactly.
And that’s your problem.
You’re more sensitive to words on your screen…
than you are the the raping that Lieberites repeatedly give you.
If I were sensitive to the words that appear on my screen, I would have given this up 4 years ago.
Then why are your knickers in a twist over someone telling you that either
(a) you got suckered by Obama & the other Lieberites
or
(b) you’re a masochist who enjoys being fucked over by Obama & the other Lieberites
?
So, take your pick…
you’re a fool or you’re a willing victim.
Which is it?
Guess I’m just an old fool…and so happy to be here so that someone who’s been commenting at the Lake for just a few short weeks can tell me that.
FWIW, the next time you call someone a fool in any FDL comment thread, the mods will remove that comment.
Of course they will.
That’s what thin-skinned hypocrites who dish out invectives like “Naderite” do when it’s explained to them that, by their own logic, they are a ‘Lieberite.”
I’d make a photoshop of Jason’s head on Clinton’s body on the Lieberman black-face pic, but it takes too much trouble.
Visualize it.
Even after admitting that I’m just an old fool, can we not agree to disagree like two adults or do we need to continue to fling insults at each other?
You’re not a fool.
Just admit you’re a Lieberite.
A reminder of the definition:
That’s pretty dang funny since I was actively involved with FDL when Jane moved to CT to help support Ned Lamont.
Sorry, but the old dang fool is forgetful, how long did you say you’ve been around these parts?
And after Lamont lost, did you continue to support those who kiss Lieberman’s ass?
Of course you did!
You may not be a leader of the Lieberite brigade, but you certainly do bring up the rear.
Actually, no. I wake up every morning and do what I can to create a “site” where commenters have a place to voice their opinion in some semblance of an adult manner.
Rather late on a Saturday night, it would appear that I have not succeeded in achieving that goal today.
If that were the case, where are your posts chastising Jason for his bad behaviour? Where are your demands that he make amends and apologize? I haven’t seen them, and until you produce them, I simply don’t believe you.
Who are you to demand an apology for someone’s opinion? If you disagree it’s fine to say so but you are being absurd.
In point of fact, I am not demanding an apology for someone’s expressed opinion on politics. I am demanding an apology for someone’s rude, condescending and uncivil manner of expressing an opinion – especially because he apparently is in some position of authority.
Are you clear on the difference now? Do you disagree?
Am I clear on the difference – and you don’t think that’s not condescending? We have lots of opinions around here and it’s interesting to really go at it sometimes. If you don’t like the attitude go some place else and maybe they won’t offend you.
Ah, you do take my point then ;-) So you understand why it’s appropriate for a person in a position of authority who behaves in this manner to come clean publicly.
Like I said – not about the politics. Jason didn’t have to act like a complete jerk yesterday. He did anyway, and to no good result. People like me are free to call him on it.
Or should I not point out what an ass he’s been because he’s on our side, and thus, the lesser of two evils? ;-)
I believe the comment wasn’t about the opinions as the language in which Jason delivers them. Jason’s posts are condescending and he seems to insult commenters with regularity.
When kids throw tantrums, they should be put to bed or they just keep yelling.
By the way, you do a great job.
Just for clarification: anyone who disagrees with you is, as you say, a “LIEBERITE”
and
Anyone who cools off a thread that is running hot is a “LIEBERITE”
Is that correct?
No.
Let me explain it again for the slow ones…
If you kiss Lieberman’s ass, or you kiss the ass of those who kiss Lieberman’s ass, you are a ‘Lieberite.’
I’ve never voted for Nader, but I think a vote for him is far more justifiable than a vote for Lieberman, Skull Kerry (thanks for Plan Colombia, john!) & Boner Edwards, or ObamaSachs/Joe bAIGden.
I appreciate that. Thank you.
An intelligent, rational, and well thought out post. I’m at Fire Dog Lake… Right?
Your substantive comment is …
Lessor evilism got us where we are today. Lessor evilism is for morons.
Really? Because I though Bush and not Gore was elected.
Obama is far from perfect, but if McCain was elected you would have gotten tax cuts and a spending freeze instead of an imperfect stimulus. What you “progressive” teabaggers don’t realize is that things could be worse… much worse.
And pseudo-liberals that stand for nothing except compromise fail to understand that the reason this country is such a mess is because Democrats fail to produce on their promises as they move farther and farther to the right. Useless weak complainers that would rather stand for nothing.
If you want to get to romo tell him his BFF Paul Krugman can’t figure out how to tip ten percent of a restaurant tab.
Pseudo-liberals? Unlike you guys who team up with Faux news and Grover Norquist and other teabaggers? Right…
And no this country is in a mess because people like you got Bush elected by voting for Nader. You are really that deluded you think people who voted for Gore are responsible for the actions of Bush and not you Naderites? Wow. Whatever you are smoking pass it down.
Lesser evilism is what happens when you don’t pick the candidate yourselves and go out and persuade the requisite number of people to vote for him/her.
Lesser evilism focuses on election day instead of the date of the filing deadline.
Enough of this bullshit. As empowered citizens we are supposed to discard the only leverage we have in this country and throw our vote away on a candidate who actively works against our best interests?
I’ve come to the conclusion that this behavior is unprincipled/amoral/abusive – in other words perfectly consistent reasoning for a corporate centrist.
I remember laughing at Anderson and Perot and Nader supporters. Now I get it. There is no way in hell anyone who voted for change should reward the democratic leadership with gratuitous votes.
On the other hand, if you are pleased with the moribund congress and executive branch then by all means keep pouring in money and votes.
I will find my spine, stop my 30 year spending and labor spree on democrats (I invested 30 years for a candidate who promised change).
We are being taken for chumps by dem leadership. Listen to Obama when he scolds “those on the left” in a false equivalence with “those on the right”. There is no left wing in America. Instead we are moving right at a more steady and measured pace instead of the neck acceleration under Bush.
The absence of any recognition by Obama of a solid core of voters on the left (excepting when he scolds us) says it all.
Once bit, twice, then you gotta be out of your fucking mind.
Centrist
–noun
1. (esp. in Obama Admin) a member of a political party who empathizes with the need for corporations to make profits without the encumbrance of principals, morals, ethics, civil law or criminal law;
2. a politician who holds a smug composition of academic purity; takes path of least political resistance; deferential to wealth and power; conservative; moderate; realist.
“I remember laughing at Anderson and Perot and Nader supporters. Now I get it.”
Excellent remarks. This beat up old Anderson/Perot/Nader supporter thanks you.
a new voice in the growing chorus of refusniks! welcome, scentopine!
on the one hand, (D) apologists like to hold up voting as some sacramental duty, yet on the other hand they counsel soiling the temple by going in and casting your sacred ballot for politicians guaranteed to legislate and rule against your interests, as the Democrats have been doing for decades.
confusing, indeed.
sneering about a ‘losing political strategy’ from advocates of ‘change from within, more and better Dems’ ?!?!? that been the Democrat guilt-trip refrain since the days of Jesse Jackson’s primary campaigns, in the 1980′s!
how has that worked out for you, fellas? You’ve got a new Herbert Hoover on your hands who is going to stain the bedraggled Donkey brand for another 50 years thanks to his trillion dollar bankster bailouts, botched HCR with detestable mandates, and heedless spending on continuing and expanding the discredited, unpopular wars of George W. Bush!
so you KNOW why tens of millions don’t bother voting – by the way, MORE skipped voting than voted for preppy fascist or gore the bore in 2000 – BUT, blame nadar!
why you don’t print your magic spreadsheet on charmin, and wipe your ass with it?
wow, another conventional wisdom clown on a blog.
yawn.
got anymore 30 year old stale bullshit to pass off as insight? the dirty fucking hippies are wrecking the country? we better be careful, or hte meany lying fascists will lie and then we’ll lose?
hopefully you have something to offer, other than HCAN cheerleading.
rmm.
I am having problems with FDL software this evening so nighty night. (Don’t know whether my computers has gremlins or site. But I’m hoping that going to bed and waking up in the morning will cure it.
I think the FDL server has been acting a tad hinky.
g’nite eCAHN
Me too.
Cass Sunstein’s plan must be going into full effect!
thers has late night up at the mothership
You want better candidates for the House and the Senate?
Pay attention to this: 2010 CONGRESSIONAL PRIMARY DATES
AND CANDIDATE FILING DEADLINES FOR BALLOT ACCESS
That, a candidate and 170,000 votes gets you a member of the House.
For the Senate. Do the math yourself from the last vote for Senate. Then add 10%. Turn out that many voters for the candidate of your choice and you have a Senate seat.
All this “lesser of two evil” BS is “too little, too late” excuses. Either you have the numbers to win or you are a spoiler, and being a spoiler doesn’t advance policy.
Right, so why do the Democrats diminish their coalition by kicking progressives to the curb every time? How does that advance policy?
Why do progressives wait passively to see who the Democrats are going to field as candidates?
May I respond? Because like Rethuglicans, there are many parties withing the party. Jason on here, is obviously a Democratic Party Progressive, meaning he supports them no matter what, and is now locking horns with independant progressives that the Dems have crapped on. That’s my take on FDL the past few days. Maybe I’m wrong but reading these comments I don’t think so.
I think you are correct, but whether you are within the Democratic Party or want to have a third party, the means are the same. To get a member of Congress elected you have to convince 170.000 or so people to vote for them. And progressives who step up to the plate and pull that off in a dark red Republican stronghold will change the national political narrative.
I think that perhaps too many folks here are from comfortable progressive Democratic districts and haven’t really had to work on delivering votes for a progressive candidate. And now those comfortable progressive Democrats are having to cave for the sake of passing legislation just because of the math in the Congress. Well the first step is to change the math. And putting more Republican in Congress doesn’t do that. Putting more Democrats in Congress does that if progressives start to hold the mathematical edge or if progressives can twist the arms of other Democrats.
I don’t, I’m a Green. My local prog dem friends have their hands full defending themselves from the corporate democrat wing which tends to control the money and nomination process. The Democrats spend more resources defending their left flank than they do going after the GOP.
I understand the complexities of running and winning local campaigns and do not run about willy nilly threatening primary challenges in the Democrat Party because that is where progressive ideas go to die.
That said, when Dems run on a progressive platform and abandon it entirely once elected, they have to be made to pay for going against their promises and public opinion. This is what democracy looks like and it is the Democrat Party which is threatening their viability, not progressives.
Not to mention it’s hard as hell to run when they don’t support you because as you say they control the money and could lock one candidate out. Which we see quite often.
Not sure why you keep wanting to do Lush Limpbaugh’s dirty work for him. It’s DemocratIC Party. Even William F. Buckly knew that:
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/08/07/060807ta_talk_hertzberg
But the party is not democratic, it is authoritarian and deceptive as the political program it runs on is not the one that it governs on and I don’t wish to mislead the reader by conflicting with the English word “democratic” which is an adjective.
Democratical Party, perhaps? Democratist Party?
Ok, why is it that Greens haven’t built a strong bench of candidates to run and win locally and then statewide before trying to capture national office? To have a viable third party, there must be viable candidates in every election. Why is it that Greens haven’t routinely beat lackluster Democrats in local elections? Beat them outright with a 50%+ majority. It takes convincing the same number of people (170,000 or so) to vote for a Green as to vote for a Democrat in order to win a Congressional seat. There is no shortcutting getting those numbers, either as Greens of progressive Democrats. And too often we cede elections to centrists because we can’t turn out that number of voters because they don’t believe we can win–a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The Democrats have made a priority out of cutting off advancement priorities to Greens we’ve elected. We got 4 Greens in office in SF, and combined with the successful framing of Nader as spoiling Gore, a concerted effort to Green bait qualified candidates through endorsement exclusions and misleading campaigns against Greens, our numbers have dwindled. Folks want to get reelected and the full power is at the disposal of the San Francisco Democrat Party to nail Greens.
Again, more energies expended defending Pelosi’s left flank than on going after the GOP. We played by the rules, we won and then the Democrats smashed us.
The issue for change is as much voting systems and no constitutional right to qualify for the ballot or have your vote counted as it is building a base of qualified independent candidates with experience in local government. People won’t give the keys to the state government to any schmo who shows up with good ideas.
Probably because 1) The Democrats have shut the Greens out in terms of money while fooling their voters into thinking the Greens are nonviable, and 2) the Greens are limited by unproductive ideas of internal “process.” But it depends on each state. What’s yours?
If my third party vote helps to bring down the Democrat party in the struggle to get my country back from the corporations, so be it. I’ll not be a lemming for any party.
The fact that the Tea Party failed in NY-23 does not make their effort wasted nor does it make people who are so called Naderites irrelevant. It means people who don’t pay attention to them, loses their vote, whether you like it or not. The reality is that if a party fails to listen to its base then the base will leave them. The party will try to get them back or it will cease to exist. This attitude of stick with us because, we talk like we are better than the other side is ridiculous. President Obama talked good to progressives to get him elected like President Bush talked good to his base but both abandoned them. People are simply tired of talking out of people speaking out of the side of their mouths. Unless a crisis is created then no change happens and quite frankly I happen to believe in a person being true to their principles and not holding a finger up to see which way the wind is blowing.
Wow. Just wow. I’ve not been on FDL very long, but I do have an opinion on this, if it’s ok to post it. Considering myself a progressive, I find the partisan argument has it’s merits. But also it’s complete and utter failures. Supporting the lesser of two evils in the last 30 years has done nothing to further progressive causes. To the contrary, it has mostly hurt them. To blindly support either party seems anal. I’ve listened for decades to people stating vote for this party and once elected, we’ll force them to listen. They rarely if ever do. If they don’t, vote them out. And they still don’t get it or they do and just don’t care. Either/or, thanks for the great read and food for thought gang!
Associate Justice John Paul Stevens – born April 20, 1920
Associate Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg – born March 15, 1933
Associate Justice Stephen Breyer – born August 15, 1938
I voted Nader in 2000 using many of the same arguments that the self-proclaimed true “progressives” are using today. After countless hours and many years of debating this with people, I still think that was a good vote at that time.
What’s happening today is NOT comparable to 2000.
We’ve had an incredible year, and I’d argue since 2006 when Dems took over Congress (sort of…considering all the Infiltrator Dems like Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln), we’ve enacted more Liberal legislation than ever in my adult life (I can start saying decades now), and that was with Shrub the Conquerer waving his teeny tiny veto pen around. Obama’s been following his plan almost to a “T” so far, where he wanted to first, stabilize the system, which has mostly happened on a number of fronts, and then start on institutional change, which is beginning now with big bank tax and closing so many of the off-shore loopholes (just read an article about several mega millionaires committing suicide as their off-shore activity becomes exposed).
That’s what’s been so odd to me about the incredible amount of discontent within so-called Liberal circles. So many of y’all didn’t didn’t bail during the Clinton years?!?! Shit, I was ready to leave the country then. This last year has been miles ahead of the entire Clinton Presidency in terms of Liberal policy enactment. So why now?
What’s especially weird is that this take-my-ball-and-go-home sentiment has been dominant here and many other places even BEFORE President Barack Hussein Obama was sworn in, fer chrissakes. Makes me wonder what’s really driving this discontent.
Anyway, just like during the election season, I’m expecting Obama to have moves ready for this outcome, and he’ll prove so many “Liberals” wrong when they were lamenting how he’d blown the election. These current comment threads should be funny to read through in a year, just as so many are from 2008.
Let’s get Coakley in the Senate by wide margin to send a message. Onward and upward, Liberal soldiers!
If you weren’t in Florida, your vote for Nader didn’t matter that much.
We were trying to get to 5% nationally, and almost did. Before 9/11, Shrub was tanking beyond belief, and most people I hung with in those days were saying, “See, it’s working! The Repubs are going down forever. They’re hanging themselves with the rope we gave them!”
(insert your own conspiracy theory about 9/11 here)
Repubs are still using 9/11 to this very day for political gain. These people are truly the scum of the Earth.
The preceding message was brought to you by the Democratic Party, the number 6 and the letter D. LOL.
Hilarious. I have several pissy letters addressed to me from the DNC HQ from 1992 when I was a local campaign manager for a Dem candidate not named Clinton. And I just said I voted for Nader in 2000, yet you’re suggesting I’m a Dem Party sychophant.
Classic.
ah the stimulus. please have a look at this infographic:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6QplrYSpY1U/SjzTgDzg7KI/AAAAAAAAFD8/Y-INIsfQeCw/s1600-h/bailout+12+vs206.jpg
more squandered on the Wall Street scum in 12 months than the country spent in 200 years!
yeah, that is sure something to be proud of.
So you don’t think he should’ve tried to save the current system, which he didn’t create, and let America tumble into another Great Depression of some sort, probably worse than the previous Depression. Fine. Can’t argue with that.
As a small business owner and parent, I’m really glad he did keep anarchy, which was (and still is) quite possible, from happening, and is now at this very moment turning the screws on the corrupt system more than any President has in many decades. For this, you want diminish Obama and hand over Congress to Repubs, and send the country into a tailspin? I disagree.
hey, sorry our posts are crossing.
saving the system at the moment means serious, major, corporate benefactor harming reform. Like for example, re-instating Glass-Steagal, and siccing the FBI on a bunch of Wall Street firms whose business models depended on pure fraud and grift.
instead, what Obama and his team on loan from Goldman Sachs have done is flush trillions of dollars down to play extend and pretend a little longer.
as a business owner and parent, read this guy, Karl Denninger, he can save you money and explain that we are still in extremely dire straits.
the Stimulus and the bailouts have done nothing to address the structural flaws that do imperil the system, and you are right to fear that peril. But, by heeding only those who wrecked the economy in the first place, Obama and the washington Dems are squandering a rare opportunity for vital, needed, authentic reform.
This is currently being worked on, with several things already implemented which has/is undoing the harms of the Clinton Admin and Repubs. Again, why be bailing on a Prez right at the exact moment he’s working on correcting the evils?
Sorry. LOL. I didn’t add a /snark at the end.
mm-hmmm.
like what?
Uhhh….how about one of the (perhaps the) largest single expenditure of taxpayer dollars in US history – The Stimulus? Not one single Repub vote.
How many things has he signed without a single Repub vote? How can President Barack Hussein Obama be a BigMoney/Repub appeaser, and at the same time not get a single Repub vote (almost) on any issue? Literally, any issue.
Then why does Obama keep using Rethuglican ideas and “reaching out” to them if they don’t matter or don’t support him? As for the stimulus, was that not already in the works while Bush was still pretending to be President?
No.
How do the Harlem Globetrotters win all their games?
How does the WWE survive all of its ‘rivalries’?
It’s a fucking spectacle, not a real contest.
2 Parties . . . 1 Cup.
but I thought you said:
nothing about enacting legislation that the rump minority Republicans didn’t vote for – get your terminology straight!
so, many would love to be enlightened about this legislation – that Stimulus was a load of pork and tax breaks, and nothing compared to what it could have, should have been, considering the dire straits the country is in.
Yep. I agree with you. See, I agree with you. Let’s review: I agree with you…the Stimulus should’ve been much bigger.
Still though, it’s the largest single Federal expenditure in many decades, and much of it has, and is currently still being expended on direct new job creation, again more jobs directly funded from the Treasury than has happened in decades (damn, I know formerly unemployed people now with jobs from it fer chrissakes!). I’ve posted my own, and linked to many more articles spelling out all the various Liberal reform the Obama Admin has been implementing. Again (how many times will I be typing that word tonight?), more than any President in my entire lifetime.
Where were you in the 1990s when Bill Clinton was off-the-charts more of a MegaCorporate stooge than Obama has ever been? Why bail now when the White House is moving more liberally than any point in decades?
I’d say they are even.
Now, when is Obama going to release the hounds regarding Bush/Cheney war crimes?
Oh, that’s right…
“Look forward, not backward.”
Unless it’s busting people for growing/selling/using marijuana.
Like he did.
Then it’s all, “Rule of Law!” bullshit.
Another reason PhRMA loves Obama the Lieberite.
I’d say the Clinton and Obama Admins are far from “even.” I’ve spelled out why in great detail here over the last several months, but being up with a sick child is keeping me from being too engaged here at the moment. Perhaps you could benefit from some additional inofrmatio sources, since there’s a lot of great stuff happening weekly. It’s all out there…you just won’t see it in the MegaMedia, and to my dismay, much of the Liberal blogosphere.
GIving financial arsonists more matches.
Check.
Sending more troops to an imperial clusterfuck.
Check.
Selling out on every major campaign issue (HCR, transparency, etc).
Check.
Letting war criminals get off scot free & re-upping on their anti-Constitutional precedents.
Check.
Does Obama the Lieberite drop a fetid crumb here and dirty spoon there?
Sure, but only Lieberites are foolish enough to call such scraps ‘progress.’
It’s a Visa commercial!
Financial bailout — $12.8 trillion.
Consolidating the owning class — priceless.
Or a signpost meme?
“Obama the Lieberite has a posse. Obey.”
I’ll go with you on only one those…the Afghan/Middle East stuff. Yet, I’ve seen several reports, from memory I think one was Seymour Hersh, saying that there’s a cabal in the highest levels of the U.S. Military working to undermine Obama (I can almost recite from memory Eisenhower’s MIC/Farewell speech and have read Smedley Butler’s “War is a Racket” several times). I believe that, and I think these same folks control much of our foreign policy, so considering that Obama in my opinion is following through on so many other issues, I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt on the foreign stuff so far. Won’t forever, but so far…
So you want to try to suggest that Obama will hold Bush/Cheney accountable to the Rule of Law?
Pardon me while I look for an emoticon that laughs until it pukes!
But, hey, it’s not a big deal. Right?
Just a million or so dead brown people.
Who has time to care about that?
Do you even try to at least understand my point before responding? It doesn’t seem like it, so I’ll stop bothering you.
The part where you give Obama the benefit of the doubt about sending more troops into an imperial clusterfuck?
Or the part where you excuse him for excusing Bush/Cheney for starting imperial clusterfucks?
The part where I clearly suggested there could be a cabal within the highest levels of the Military Industrial Complex trying to undermine (perhaps threatening) Obama.
Do you think this is possible?
Hmm. Interesting theory.
Kind of like when Kennedy shut down Operation Northwoods, a plan sent to him by the Joint Chiefs wherein they advocate for false-flag terrorism against US civilians (staged hijackings/faked downings of commercial planes with drones, mayhem and actual murder of civilians in US cities) in order to falsely justify aggression against Cuba…
and then — lo and behold — Kennedy gets assassinated.
By a TV spokesman for the ‘New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee’ no less.
Of course, only a conspiracy theorist would suggest one has anything to do with the other.
That kind of thing?
Next you’ll say 9/11 was an inside job!
lulz
hmmm, I thought conspiracy theories like the MIC is holding do-gooder President Obama hostage in the WH were frowned upon at FDL.
poor feeble little kitten, Commander-in-Chief yet, at the same time, innocent bystander, outfoxing them with his 11 dimensional chess. Appointing high-level staff from Goldman Sachs, in order to punish, Goldman Sachs! Running against McCain from the right on Af/Pak, in order to draw down Bush’s stupid, criminal wars, only to be informed by a cabal of Generals, or maybe Cigarette Smoking Man from the X-files, that he cannot do that.
talk about laughable self-contradiction!
Was he also on the ‘Lone Gunman’ pilot (air date 3/04/2001) where a shadow faction of the US Gov remote controls a Boeing into the WTC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6EWF3vulc
Of course, no one could have imagined they’d hit the Pentagon as well…
except for the military exercise held on Oct 24-26, 2000
quick with the links, Jack!
I was agreeing with you, and taking issue with boinkers.
Operation Northwoods notwithstanding, there is no indication Obama ever intended on altering Bush/Cheney/AIPAC’s plans for the wars in the Middle East. It is the most wishful of wishful thinking – and b is susceptible to it, not you.
Oh, I know you were!
Thanks for the opportunity to show what Obama’s leading contender for the next Supreme Court opening, Cass Sunstein, is trying to ban from the internet:
http://rawstory.com/2010/01/obama-staffer-infiltration-911-groups/
http://theragblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/got-fascism-obama-advisor-promotes.html
This is the kind of shitstain we should rally around Obama the Lieberite to put on the bench?
lulz
Sustein’s gonna be on the Supreme Court?!? You have some sort of secret decoder ring?
I do know his first choice questioned corporate “personhood” in her first writing on the court, which a Supreme hasn’t done in a very long time. Important since that’s one of the core problems in all the dysfunction of our current system. See, progress…it’s good.
He’s been advocated, if you hadn’t noticed:
Ten picks for Obama’s Supreme Court
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/11/19/supreme_court/
Obama’s Potential Supreme Court Nominees
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/SCOTUS/Story?id=7480719&page=3
Well, guess Obama took care of “diversity” with Sotomayor, huh?
Lovely. Sotomayor was a “diversity” pick then in your opinion?
Oh, and ABC articles with no author or sources? That’s your proof that Sunstein is gonna be a Supreme? You’re a true Liberal indeed, as opposed to a robotic Obamatron like me.
Except for all those times he’s seen on video shortly after 9/11 saying all the same things as Russ Feingold, such as not rushing into emotional decisions that undermine the Constitution and invading countries that had nothing to do with it.
Of course, as I’m sure you’ll say, he was just pandering to Liberals for votes, even though that was an unpopular sentiment at that time even amongst most Liberals. Ask Russ.
Yeah, yer right. Obama couldn’t single-handedly take down the over 200 years of built up corruption and graft in DeeCee in a year. What a loser!
How about sticking to a campaign promise that doesn’t involve the military like opposing an individual mandate?
How about significant Wall Street reform, some sort of Glass-Steagall approach?
How about ENDA? Repeal DOMA? End DADT?
None of this is rocket science, all of it is supported by majorities of Americans and overwhelmingly by the Democrat base.
Why do votes and public support not translate into a fierce advocate leveraging his intelligence and control of two branches of government for our benefit?
That would be “DemocratIC base.”
After all this, you’re coming now with the “how about just one campaign promise” schtick?!? Damn. I’ve spent countless hours here on that one and was happy it hadn’t happened here yet tonight, but now it’s clear this is going nowhere fast. Time to make like a tree and skeedaddle.
If McCain were proposing Obama’s policies you’d be shitting purple twinkies.
Please find me one time a President, or Congressperson for that matter, has been able to pass exactly what they said would while campaigning. Just one.
This not being a dictatorship, I suggest it’s virtually impossible to do, and since Obama has already gotten through many things he campaigned on and getting even more aggressive now for his agenda, I’d say his record is pretty good on that front.
His agenda sucks, and he’s an asshole. Sorry to break it to ya.
Please find me a president who ran as an antiwar candidate, in one year, managed to implement the opposite of his campaign promises EXCEPT for expanding the war in Af-Pak and maintaining in Iraq?
Imagine of G.W. Bush, had sweetened a deal with Democrat support to pay for abortions for poor women?
Well, his actions did cause a lot of Iraqi women to have spontaneous abortions.
And ‘Depleted Uranium’ will cause many more to spontaneously abortions, and want to get medical abortions (Google that term and try to look at the images, if you haven’t eaten recently).
Does that count?
And are we still using it under War Lord Obama’s watch?
thanks, its nice to agree. but now I’m thinking that
refers to the Stimulus bill? ok, thats a clarification, but if the amounts lavished on Wall Street were spread around Main Street, we would have to have called out guys with plows and shovels to clear the dollar bills away.
look again at the handy infographic, or also see this.
this represents one of the largest redistributions of wealth in world history, and it is going the wrong way, bonkers. They are paying themselves obscene bonuses out of taxpayers dollars – you should be wary of claiming this as a big liberal success story.
He doesn’t get a single R vote not because they don’t like the corporatism but because they don’t like him and want to co-opt the populist uprising. They’re just like the Dems, play to wherever the wind is blowing and do whatever it takes politically to get back in power even if it means trashing the country policy-wise and then do whatever your corporate masters pay you to do once you’ve got the power. Plus, the R’s are pissed that the D’s have been stealing their gravy trains.
sorry…this is rediculous:)!!! What great policies has he implemented? What great progressive wins?
Dis’ shit is “Bonkers”
Yawn. Although thanks for making me see I got comment #420 and #600 in one thread. It’s my lucky day! Anyone got a lighter? It’s 4:20 somewhere in the world right now…
well, I did notice that the point was 420 (and I am currently partaking, good sir)…however, I would like to here about all the Obama accomplishments…or do you just respond with “yawns?”
Love ya:)
From the essay:
And all of the reformers who voted for Gore were so helpless as a result that the party didn’t reform itself!
Jason -
Hope you enjoy being a doormat because that’s what you are and will always be.
If they, i.e. the Dem elites, can count on your vote no matter what piece of filth they cough up they don’t have to care what you think.
Sorry, I’ve played that game way too long. I’ve been there and done that and know how that movie ends. Just don’t think I’ll play anymore
So as they say you can sit on that doormat and rotate.
The other day, Jason jumped as quickly as possible on the thread of realworld’s diary entitled “Why I will not be voting for Martha Coakley Tuesday” to tell a diarist and Seminal readers that the diarist’s views were “a load of crap” (comment @ 8). He then ignored my request that he apologize for doing it (comment @ 66), called me and others with similar views “idiots” (comment @ 159) and then told me that I had to watch the name calling and warned everyone to be careful not to antagonize the guy who runs the site (comment @ 232). Seriously. I asked him what the hell is wrong with him and, according to him, came dangerously close to being banned (comment @ 239).
It is correct, that not giving active support to one party, the Dems,n gives passive support to the Repubs. The problem is that as long as we accept that paradigm, the conservadems and copratists will ignore the progressives until they need money or votes. That means they will say things like ” I will not sign any bill without the Public Option” during the campaign to get the progressives riled up and giving meney and time and votes. After the election all of our issues are cast to the back of the bus. Where are you progressives going to go, Nader? You will be helping the Repubs. The question I must ask is why is it Ok for the conservadems to hold the party up for ransom, to water down the bill until you start agreeing that maybe it shouldn’t get passed. That is OK. Conservadems can actively campaign for the Repubs with no repercussions. The progressives are hurting the party because we want the party to pass something that actually improves the status Quo.
This is probably moot. If the Dems pass the individual mandate it will probably kill the party outright. Once the insurance industry starts new predatory practices, the party will be blamed for every recind, claim denial, usurous premiums rates, restricted service all will be blamed on the Democrats. With that legacy, we will need to create a third party or we will never get elected again.
[FDL moderator has censored this?]
Not even close to finished. I’ll fight Jason’s assholishness with all the energy I’ve been fighting any other enabler of sellouts who tells Americans that they’re stupid or idiotic for not voting for any and all candidates because they have a “D” after their names.
Unless Jane tells me that she’s happy with this crap on the front page of Firedoglake, this crap that is the opposite of everything that Jane works so hard for, I’ll fight it.
[FDL moderator has censored this?]
The other day, Jason jumped as quickly as possible on the thread of realworld’s diary entitled “Why I will not be voting for Martha Coakley Tuesday” to tell a diarist and Seminal readers that the diarist’s views were “a load of crap” (comment @ 8). He then ignored my request that he apologize for doing it (comment @ 66), called me and others with similar views “idiots” (comment @ 159) and then told me that I had to watch the name calling and warned everyone to be careful not to antagonize the guy who runs the site (comment @ 232). Seriously. I asked him what the hell is wrong with him and, according to him, came dangerously close to being banned (comment @ 239).
Jason Rosenbaum, the master political strategist.
Heh.
Why does anyone here even read his posts?
So we don’t have to read your comments.
Your screen name is appropriate.
don’t bug bonkers right now – at this moment he is searching for links to show us how Obama and the (D)’s have recently
besides, of course, the obscene bonanza given to the Wall Street grifters who financed Obama’s campaign.
If I had a nickel for every time someone has used that one here…well, I’d be able to make a nice donation to my Dear Leaders at OFA.
I was just gonna go make myself a cup of weak tea, but now I don’t have to. Thanks.
Moderator: I am writing to Jane Hamsher right now to explain that I will have to leave Firedoglake if my comments are not approved by you immediately.
A few weeks ago, I wrote to her to explain why I changed my name at FDL. She knows who I am, she knows that I have signed every FDL petition, that I’ve written numerous diaries, and that I have contributed hundreds of dollars to Firedoglake and to Blue America candidates.
As I am explaining to Jane, if she wanted Jason’s post on the front page of Firedoglake, a post that represents the exactly what she works her ass off to oppose, then I’ll just leave FDL quietly.
But if you are going to silence me for fighting an enabler of sellouts who tells Americans that they’re stupid or idiotic for not voting for any and all candidates because they have a “D” after their names, then Firedoglake is not what I thought it was.
I’ll be explaining all this in my email to Jane and others at Firedoglake. In the meantime, approve my comments and take me off your moderation filter.
It strikes me that people like Jason want to believe that there’s some fringe “leftist” group, small in numbers(say, 5%), but able to tilt the balance in close election cycles. But in fact, that is not the case. I’m not particularly “leftist” or “progressive”, nor are large numbers of people who voted for this administration and who expected them to get the people’s business done. It is these people who will be sitting out elections, these people not voting for Democratic candidates that will cause the balance of power to tip. And posts chastising those “liberals” over on FDL just aren’t going to cut it with fed-up voters.
So Jason’s analysis is not bad and wrong-headed, it’s obdurately, willfully, wrong-headed. Notice that this sort of thinking is the prelude to the usual dolchstoss bit of mythology – what these types of people will take away from any electoral losses was that those DFH’s were to blame. Any sort of critical self-examination will be notably lacking.
If you have something useful to add to the discussion , please do so , if not, move along , you’re not needed here.
This is utter tripe. Dean was taken down by the party insiders before the Iowa caucuses. He built up the 50-state infrastructure, and then was ushered out of the DNC by the party insiders. In the end, even though that’s not at all what he was trying to do, he just made it easier for them to screw us.
When I wrote why I thought that Nader was right, and why, you responded by blowing that off with a one-liner.
You call the people who voted for third parties immature and other labels, and yet you have not come up with a single good reason for what you say. Your entire schtick here has been to insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you, and to be condescending when you’re not outright insulting. You’re no less an idiot than anyone in this thread or the other one whom you’ve labeled an idiot.
The only thing that you have taught me here is that you don’t have an opinion worth listening to.
It’s time for some tough love. I listened very carefully thru the campaign and now I realize I was sold a bill of goods thats not worth the paper bag it came in. Obama hit all the right notes and said all the right things,………..to get elected. Now that he got what he wanted, he seems to have forgotten all the campaign promises. Rham has the attitude that we have nowhere to go but vote Democrat. Guess he figured wrong.
“To the pissed off progressives:”
Yes?
“Don’t be Naderites”
Hmm. Let’s see here. I was a pissed-off progressive in 1999. I was in Seattle in November of that year, marching in the streets with everyone from libertarians to unionists to people wearing giant puppets. We were, collectively, tear-gassed, shot with rubber bullets, beaten with batons, put in jail, and removed of our civil rights. And many of us were Democratic party activists, and many of us ended up voting for Nader, because we saw the problem of corporatism as larger and more pernicious than our Democratic party brethren did.
I say all this not because I disagree with the strategic advice of this ‘blog entry. Most of the take-away is pretty good. I say it because NADERITES ARE YOUR ALLIES. Please do not piss them off. They are not the crazy stepchildren of the progressive cause; They Are Your Elders. They’ve been trying to tell you for at least a decade what’s really going on here. It turns out they were correct. They are not DFHs. They are YOU, ten years ago.
Please, try to think of some way to offer good advice in a good way, instead of offering good advice in a way that is needlessly divisive.
The problem with the Naderites you are speaking of, is their candidate. Ralph Nader.
Like him, love him, hate him – Ralph Nader is a nihilist and an egotist who never once brought a solution. Not once. Ever.
He knows how to blow things up. Blowing things up is his specialty, his calling.
He is the ultimate deconstructionist. He could not build a straight line on a piece of paper if you spotted him a pencil and a ruler.
Top Dems know how to make a straight line…
lining up to kiss Lieberman’s ass.
Ralph Nader — ultimate cause of dandruff!
Lieberites — ultimate flakes!
Count me as another proud “Naderite” or more accurately third-party voter. Don’t forget, the Republicans started out as a third party!
Someone on this site noted that Gore Vidal long ago said there is only one political party in this country, the Property Party, with two wings, a Democratic wing and a Republican wing. How true. It’s not realistic to think otherwise, however much you may wish it were so. I wish there were really a difference with a distinction, but, alas, that isn’t the world we currently live in. I will support and vote for candidates who behave as I believe. Only. Walk the talk or continue to clank around in special interest chains.
What’s the strategy after ditching the Dems?
I’m not in total disagreement with those who advocate that, but I never hear about what would happen afterwards.
Depends on how they react, doesn’t it?
If they take it as encouragement to move right, it shows that was their plan all along.
If they take it as an indication they need to actually do what they say they will in their campaign speeches and earnestly begin doing so…
that’s a horse of a different color, isn’t it?
I’ve had too much so I’ll retire with my book. I think we have some trolls among us.
Jason is off the mark in equating a Naderite with someone who would not vote or vote for a candidate that would actively work against their interest (when that is clear before the vote). A vote for Nader was a votefor something.
Immerse your emotions in the cold water of logic before you vote. A lot of this discussion is not about the actual the race and issues. These abstractions will not be interpreted in the way you want by those in power. Whipping yourselves into a frenzy will lead you to be frustrated by either outcome in the election.
Choose better ground on which to fight. when you do not have the high ground listen to Obi Wan. Don’t make Anakin’s mistake
It’s not a matter of being a “Naderite”; that shot is both cheap and illogical.
Nader wasn’t in office. He had not won a landslide victory based on disaffection with bush and the GOP’s wretched mistakes. There was no growing wellspring of anger and disappointment at Al Gore on the part of democrats and independents, that made a lot of people turn their backs on him.
At that time, the republicans and Bush had none of the stigma attached to them for dragging us into the miserable situation we’re in, for them to deal with and they capitalized on that fact by mainly running against Gore as Clinton’s vice-president.
Obama’s situation is entirely different. He came into office with the biggest mandate for real change since FDR. And his coattails were a mile long, which is why we got those big working margins in both houses of congress. If Obama and the dems had fought the good fight, he and the dems could have politically routed the republicans and the blueroaches even when they were temporarily “losing” on such issues as healthcare. (Which was a made-to-order fight for us, only it’s been one in which we’re seeing our “progressive” administration sell us out time and again.)
If he’d put his political capital on the “change you can believe in” number, even if he lost some early votes, he would have come off looking like Captain America working hard against the party of “NO YOU CAN’T!”, and most americans would have loved him for it, and the democratic congers, too.
Instead, he looks like the one thing that the voters won’t abide, and that is, a weak president. And the congress shares that slap of tar, and they are going to pay for it. I happen to feel that that’s appropriate.
Which brings us to the question of what should progressives do? I, personally, have no interest in giving O. and the congress any more carrot-support. It’s not working. I think it’s time for some political “stick”.
Martha Coakley is no progressive. The roster of health insurance robber barons and Big Pharma who held that fundraiser for her 3 nights ago, is like a who’s who of the bad guys. The short of it is, I can’t think of a better sacrificial goat to give Obama and the democrats in congress one hell of a heads-up that their “centrist” bullshit won’t fly any more, than for the Massachusetts democrats to stay home and to have a republican take Kennedy’s old seat.
If we lose that seat or are lucky enough to skate through with a shockingly close win ,it won’t be because Coakley and the dems are too liberal. It’s preposterous to claim that, in the state which has been the most loyal democratic stronghold in the country. In the overview, we are not at risk of losing one or perhaps both houses of congress in 2010 because voters perceive a rabid leftist political agenda on the part of the democrats.
Obama and the dems are tanking because a lot of americans who voted for them, and thought they would hit the ground running, on the policies and legislation that we so desperately need to salvage something from 8 years of bush and the GOP, are now changing their minds and beginning to make the call that Obama is just another political hack whose main interest is in protecting the status quo.
The democrats are already in trouble, and with Obama’s trickle-down policies leaving the economy still faltering and sputtering, and with Iraq set to come back to the front burner, as well as Obama’s foolishness in buying into the pentagon’s rancid, rosy, “light at the end of the tunnel” nonsense in Afghanistan, the shellacking that it looks like we’ll get in 2010 could be the harbinger of worse to come, in 2012.
~~~Link replace to preserve margins~~~
http://tinyurl.com/ylhnd7s
I’m not interested in hearing “It’s only been a year.” This past 12 months was THE year in which he could have defined his administration and himself, as a real fighter for the changes that we need. Instead, we’ve watched his political mojo rot and molder in the white house basement, as he’s practically done rehab on the people who are responsible for our predicament.
Things are going to start moving very quickly, and by summer, I will be surprised if his numbers aren’t tracking some of George Bush’s lowest ratings, only, with the all-important difference that HIS low-water-mark is coming midway through his first (and possibly only) term, instead of after 8 years of unspinnable fuckups.
I don’t know if it’s too late to alter this, but we are very close to some point of no return, in which it will be too late for him to implement any real change. In fact, given what’s happening in Afghanistan and Iraq now, it may already be. If, in 8 months or a year or so, if Iraq reverts to the chaos that we saw in Bush’s years in office, or if Obama’s “surge” in Iraq can only result in some kind of sporadically violent stasis, they will be Obama’s wars, and by then, it’s going to be tough to argue that they should be considered anything else.
As for losing the magic 60-vote filibuster-buster, I would just ask anyone who is so concerned about that to tell us what legislation Obama has put up that is so precious that we have to keep on supporting politicians of the same ilk who are giving us the trojan horse health-care reform bill with plenty of mandates and no public option. Or, they can tell us what genuinely progressive legislation he’s going to put up in future that will be shot down if we don’t have those 60 votes. That, I would really like to hear.
I’ve been a liberal democrat all of my life. I’ve always thought that third parties were a waste of time. Now, I’m not so sure, and if Howard Dean and Russ Feingold, just to name a couple of people who have described what is going on with Obama and the democrats in accurate terms, decide to bolt to run to the left of Obama, I will take a good, long, look at them. And, if Obama continues his slackass “bipartisanship”, I think a lot of other democrats will do the same thing. If this results in another Bush term, instead of the BushLite that we’re getting, at this point I just might be willing to take my chances with that, rather than we continue to get hoisted on our own petard.
great post – make it a diary!
and bonkers at 505 – please.
If he’d wanted to do the right thing vis a vis Wall Street he wouldn’t have staffed up with so many Goldman Sachs alums! (what a coincidence – Barack Obama’s largest private donor!)
Matt Taibbi from Rolling Stone, which employs fact checkers galore, in case your faith in Hope-n-Change inclines you to doubt the evidence presesnted.
That is one of the funniest anti-Obama arguments to me. So let’s see…wherever Obama gets the most money from, that means he’s most beholden to that the group, correct?
Considering that he could raise more in one email blast to his supporters than his entire take from Goldman (and the entire industry for that matter), then he’s beholden to the smaller donors. Thanks for pointing that out.
Perhaps you can explain why insurance company’s stock is up on word that HCR will pass?
Well, I have some theories on that. Stock prices are like the wind, for one thing.
But regardless, if we use the metric of how much Obama has raised from a certain quarter, then he’s much beholden to the small donor than he is to the Medical Industrial Complex, even though he got (I don’t agree with the methodology of a recent report, but will give that to you for the sake of argument) around $20 million. That’s peanuts compared to his small donor amount.
maybe he ought to be beholden to the smaller donors, but it is Goldman, Sachs who got the best ROI, as they so often do.
the notion that politicians owe fealty to and reward those who fund them is not exactly controversial, but if you find it funny, well I begrudge no one a little chuckle.
No, that’s not what I find funny. I want federally funded elections.
What I find funny is people making arguments that prove the exact opposite of what they’re trying to say.
You are making this vote into something it is not, just like the MSM. Who is the better candidate? Vote for that person. The rest of your thought are abstractions not realities. Fight the battle in front of you and not the one you’d like to fight.
So now we are arguing about the arguing.
Does anyone remember the topic?
Does anyone care more about the topic than the invective?
The “Topic” was invective:
To the pissed on Lieberites: Don’t shit on Progressives who vote their conscience and expect them not to return shit to sender.
Let a thread get long enough, and that will almost always happen. Whether it’s as inevitable as a reference to you know who is an interesting question that I’m sure someone with a good screen scraper and parser will explore one day.
“Folks should organize and takeover… ” We thought we did, but, it is looking more like a bait and switch.
True. See: Dean, Howard.
I’ve already written enough about the basic topic, but on this related point, I think it’s good to remind ourselves that progress isn’t going to happen quickly, nor is it going to be a constant progression. The argument here ought to be about how to get there.
The author of this thread suggests that we just keep voting for the lesser of two evils.
I’m aware of that. It’s what I said about 300 comments ago, yesterday. Roughly. I wrote a dozen or so longish comments in the thread JR was referring to. I’ve been writing about this topic for days, and all I see are the same arguments over and over.
For further readings, besides the earlier comments, go here, here, and here.
If I were to sum all that up in one sentence, it would be that if you progressives aren’t willing to demonstrate to Democratic leaders that they can’t count on their votes, they will have no power.
Anyway, the only interesting topics here are the peripheral ones.
This thread, itself, with it’s number of posts and it’s anger, should tell the people who don’t want to rock the Obama adminstration boat, just what is happening with a lot of rank-and-file democrats.
The strategy from the left at this point should be obvious since it has been seen to work. The left should make it clear to the Democrats that they can not count on our vote if they intend to pass the punative HCR Senate bill and other anti popular measures.
If they persist in doing so they will continue to be voted out of office since the Republican party is united in their oppostiton. We will continue to push for truly progressive candidates who are reliable and committed to abide by the preferneces of the majority of voters.
The Democrats will be in a true dilemma since ideologically they are more aligned with business intersts than with our own and they will need to choose which interests they will serve. We on the left will in essence need to assume the role of the opposition to business interest party since there currently is none.
We will need to exert the leverage we apparently possess and if the Democrats are willing to lay the blame for the hostility directed their way on the left then we should actually give them something to complain about.
Health care is important. As is the economy and monetary policy, and a couple of wars. And a whole lot of other things. But I think the Republic will stand.
What the Republic will not tolerate (should it NOT falter and crumble), are bad Supreme Court Justices. So say what you will about all the other issues, and I could say plenty. But do not argue that Obama SCOTUS nominees are just like McCain’s. Or Pawlenty’s. Or Thune’s. Or Giuliani’s. Or whatever cretin they put up.
And if I am wrong, and we go fully into the ditch – Joe Lieberman and his scummy ilk will be the least of our problems.
I love and hate the Democratic Party, and since the sporkovat party hasn’t completed their state of the art headquarters yet, I’m staying here and fighting for it.
What I am suggesting is that we on the left have aquired a strategically important position and we should make use of it.
The Democrats will lose seats to the extent that the left refrains from giving them their votes and they should have no illusions about that. Our vote for Democrats should be conditioned on their promoting policies that suit our interests, including substituting the current punative Senate HCR bill in favor of one with a PO, no mandate and removal of anti-truat exemption for insurers.
So long as Democrats abide by our interests they can count on our vote otherwise they will be voted out. The choice is theirs to make. We on the left in any event will continue to fight to place progressives in place of Democrats that are voted out. If Republicans are voted in it will be the result of Democrats’ conspiring with them.
And I am all for squeezing every drop of compliance out of them. The problem is, and has been forever, that if they do not fear you (us), then we are going to get rolled.
So how do we go about threatening their electoral certainty?
Edit: Pow Wow wrote a tremendous series of diaries a few weeks ago, about taking the party from the bottom up. However, that has nothing to say about what we do next November. Or in ’12.
I don’t think that we on the left beleived before that we held such a defining strategic advantage in determing the electoral fate of Democrats as recent events would suggest we have. That in itself is important and places Democrats in a bind.
Either they vote for a progressive agenda, which runs counter to their basic idology or they simply lose their seat. Keep in mind that by a progressive agenda we are talking of those objectives which the majority of the country has stated they want, universal health care covered by taxes and the like.
We have only to make maximal use of this leverage over the Democrats and they should be under no illusion that we will employ that leverage.
I have looked at a lot of polls.
Ask a huge swath of Americans what they think about this and that, and subtract any party or ideological bias – the country is Progressive. Explain 2006 and 2008 (the cowardly actions of Dem pols notwithstanding).
Playing cute or serene has gotten us nowhere. Voters see guts, they run like Hell towards it.
Agree completely!
I feel that the question as to the viablity of a third party movement has already been answered. I feel that such a party is us, the progressive movement. We only need to make clear distinctions from the Democratic party which has its own agenda based on the furtherance of business interests.
We should be free to follow our own agenda based on the wishes of the majority of voters.
nader was the only one for the people \
you that line up to vote for the demos are dumber than the repubs
at least the repubs dont lie about who controls them
they dont lie they are for sale to the highest bidder like the demos
the demos lie to you to get your votes
follow the money
naw keep voting for the demos
sign up independent and form a voting block like the blacks, latinos, religious right, etc.
dump the demos they are the biggest liars out there.
only a fool would believe them
any nation that makes mega profits off the sick and needy and has millions of americans without health care deserves the demos and repubs.
the greed of americans is beyond words. no other industrialized nation has such greed when it comes to the sick and needy.
truly we are an evil nation with our wars for profits and our mega profits off the sick and needy.
does any one really think most americans care about the afghans or the iraqis.
i have actually heard christian americans state we need to …… all of the muslims. we have so many of our wars for profits it is now just an accepted part of america life.
what we sow we reap few in america understanding that simple truth.
The stupid, it burns.
However, since apparently I’m a stupid, worthless putz because I don’t agree with the article’s author, thanks for showing me the truth behind FDL, I’ll be leaving you in the same bin as Daily Kos now.
And best of luck with that lesser-of-two-evils party. How’s that worked out in the past?
hey hey, not so fast.
at FDL they will joust with you – it is nothing like Kos here.
and, we got your back.
Don’t go! Jason’s position is actually a minority position on FDL. The good thing about FDL is that it doesn’t censor the stupid. It lets people duke it out and, as you have seen, there are plenty of people here to duke it out. Stick around, sign up for the action items that appeal to you and say what you really feel in comments whenever you like.
Speaking as one of the “idiots,” as one of the “infants,” as a “Naderite” who never voted for a third party candidate before in my life, but who will write in the name of a progressive Democrat if a progressive Democrat doesn’t appear on the ballot this Nov, I would leave FDL based on this post being on the front page (and the fact that my ability to post comments w/o having to have them approved by a moderator was taken away from me tonight after the comment I wrote @ 393) if it weren’t for the fact that I know that this post doesn’t represent the work of Jane Hamsher and Firedoglake at all and never should have appeared on the front page of Firedoglake.
Jane’s position, as I understand it, is not mine. What I got from her comment in her article this morning is that she’s not in favor of either voting third party or against someone like Coakley. That’s OK.
What I like about Jane, and her blog, is what Lincoln liked about Grant: “I like this one. He fights.” As long as they’re willing to do that, I can agree to disagree, until they either come around to my position or we don’t need to argue.
To what comment in which article by Jane are you referring? I just went through her post from this morning and all the comments and don’t see any reference to third parties or Coakley.
What comment was that? I’m thinking I missed it.
Apologies to you and Neoptolemos. It was Friday.
Thank you so much for finding the reference! I actually did see the exchange at the time.
In the comment I believe you’re referring to, Jane wrote:
What she was talking about, I think, is her preference to see establishment Democrats lose to progressive primary challengers.
She wasn’t talking about the MA special election on Tuesday in that comment at all.
The best way I can explain my understand of Jane’s view is to state my own:
I’m no happier than Jason about the fact that a Republican might well win on Tuesday.
The difference is that I blame the Democratic Party’s failed leadership and I refuse to support Coakley’s candidacy, while Jason doesn’t seem to get that the reason why he’s so afraid that she might actually lose is because the Democratic Party has turned off so many Americans.
He wants to support a failed leadership so they can continue to go on failing and turning off the American people, and I don’t.
I saw that but didn’t read it as an endorsement of Coakley or Jason’t point of view. I took it as saying that she would like to see conservadems or corporate dems or whatever you want to call them go down, but her preference is to have progressives as an option rather than their demise meaning giving a seat to Republicans. I think everyone here would agree to that. Nobody here wants more Republicans in power. If Marcy Winograd were running against Brown, we’d all be doing our best to send her to Washington to deliver our message and do us some good after the election messaging is over. I wish that were the choice here. I’m pissed off at Lynn Woolsey for trying to keep that from being the choice in CA in 2010 and have joined that fight for the primaries even though I don’t live in that district. But this is what it is and while I wouldn’t call people voting for Coakley in good faith bad Dems and don’t fault Jane for not doing so or for wishing it were a better set-up, I really hope Coakley goes down in flames and exit polls are full of pissed off Dems ranting about corporate sellouts.
I’m glad you are so sure about what Jane Hamsher thinks. I’ve worked with her for 4 years now and am constantly amazed with how she stays so far ahead of us on both the issues and strategies for achieving our goals.
What I find interesting is that just late last year you were writing in bold demanding that she explain her strategy to you.
I don’t know how you can keep track of everyone like that. I wish I could.
I asked another commenter for a reference. [UPDATE: Sorry, I thought you were responding to a different comment of mine, the one @ 612, though I don't get how you jumped to the conclusions you did in your comment @ 617 based on what I wrote @ 602]
I didn’t ask to get into another argument with you.
But since you started it…
Yes, I have challenged Jane when I disagree with where she appears to be going. What you’re referring to my inability to read her mind. The bold demanding you’re talking about was when she appeared to be starting down a path that I thought would be bad for FDL. Frankly, I still think she was. And I was happy when she backed off it.
Thank you for pointing out to others that I will challenge Jane when I don’t understand what she’s doing or simply disagree with her. That’s a good thing.
I didn’t respond to the key point in this comment.
You wrote:
Based on all of her work, I’d say that she would not agree at all with the style or substance of Jason’s post here. If I’m wrong about the substance, about her actually endorsing Coakley’s candidacy, I’d like a reference. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s pissed when she finds out that this post was put up on the front page of Firedoglake.
But as you think you know her work so much better, why don’t you make a case for her approving of the style or substance of this post.
rbg, if you’ve read all my comments (as i think you do everyone’s) over the past 18 months on hcr you must know what a red flag your comment is to me. it’s like you are daring me to respond in long and gory detail. what good could that possibly bring to anyone? seriously, my impulse control is not perfect. i wish it was. please don’t assume that it is.
I understand why you’re pissed. But I have to have some faith that if FDL were run by people too stupid to figure out what to do with someone like Jason, it wouldn’t be what it is. You give someone front page access and they might burn you. It’s up to them to figure out what they want to do about it. It’s stupid for mods to circle the wagons over someone who has offended a lot of people. It’s stupid for Jason not to just say he got worked up about the topic and should hold himself to the same standards he holds others to and apologize or whatever. But it seems to me you’re letting him divert you away from the bigger issues that are going to matter in this country by his own issues that are just diverting him from sounding like anything but a person who knows very little but thinks they know it all. He has hurt his own credibility more than you or Jane could ever do and he has passed up his chance to get it back. Why should you be the one with heart burn?
There’s a reason I didn’t get all pissed off at him for insinuating that I either can’t or don’t read the threads I am responding in and can’t see anything clearly even when it is explained to me repeatedly in terms a child should understand. Anyone with half a brain can see when I stick to the issues that he’s the one who can’t seem to follow simple logic and common sense. Here, have some rope and keep talking. I’m not going to be the one to silence him when he’s proving my points for me every time he opens his mouth.
Once again, I have to sincerely thank you for your insight and kindness.
This has caused more than heart burn. I’ve had a couple of disagreements in the past with Jason, but I’ve mostly avoided problems with him that others have had. Honestly, I’m sorry that this appears to have gotten personal.
On the other hand, this cannot continue going forward between now and Nov.
He repeatedly belittles people for not seeing what he incorrectly thinks to be correct and obvious, effectively hijacks threads after telling a diarist that his or her views are “a load of crap.”
In these days, he repeats and repeats and repeats and repeats his ranting mantra and I’m told that I’m ranting for responding to it.
He calls me an idiot and then tells me to watch the name calling.
I ask him what the hell is wrong with him, and he tells me I’m a step away from being banned.
I agree that he’s shot his credibility.
Had this post not appeared on the front page of Firedoglake, I would have ignored it.
Dude, I’m pretty much in your camp on the whole fiasco, but you have to realize, nobody owes you an explanation for anything here. You may want one, but you don’t have any reason to expect one. No one is accountable to you, you don’t make rules, and you don’t expect changes. Do you get it? You need to take a step back and get some perspective.
I honestly didn’t realize that I was making rules. I’m pointing out that Jason is creating problems that he shouldn’t be creating.
You might tell me that a guy who runs the site belittling others is fine. Maybe it is. But to go on and intimidate others by threatening to ban them for challenging him (he literally wrote that it’s not a good idea to antagonize the guy who runs the site after calling people who disagree with him idiots). It has a chilling effect on people who want to argue passionately about things they believe in.
There was more than an hour tonight when my comments were held for moderator approval. It started around the time I wrote my commment @ 393.
I’m not trying to make rules. I’m objecting loudly so that those who do make the rules well above Jason’s head know what he’s doing. How will they know what he’s doing if I don’t speak up about it?
You do realize that if Jason is going to continue like this, Firedoglake has a problem as we go forward into 2010?
All I’m saying is that a little charm goes a long way, these threads are public – everyone can see what goes on and who did/said what. At a certain point your influence ends because people have different views of what goes on, and you’re just going to have to live with what those people decide to do. I think you’re at that point. Lobbying about further it is not going to do your case any good, imo. But chilling out and trusting just might.
Fair enough. Thanks. Actually, I have learned to trust the judgment of Jane and others at fdl. That trust took a little while to build, but I have good reason to trust them and be infinitely impressed by them.
*g*
He’s dragging you into his insanity. Learn to deal with it now because there are a million more of him coming between now and 2012 and there will be no way to be free of those trying desperately to hijack every thread that threatens the status quo. Howard Dean is crazy, you’re ranting, Jane is a closet Republican and we’re all going to be the ruination of a party that is the greatest thing that ever screwed us over and demanded that we worship them for doing so, to our everlasting shame. This is only the beginning of the same narrative and the same tactics. Take it as an opportunity to let it slide off your back. Honestly, if people can’t see it for what it is, nothing you can do is going to change that. Appearing on the front page just makes his idiocy more public and shoots his credibility with a wide audience. Don’t get tripped up in the rope he’s hanging himself with. And don’t worry about defending those who are being told they are spouting crap. You may have noticed they weren’t cowering in the corner begging for someone to save them from Jason, they were kicking his ass and having a good time doing it. Sit back and enjoy it as a show or you’re not going to survive the big election seasons. The propagandist get yourself in line shit isn’t even near the fan yet and the stink is only a faint odor compared to what is coming.
There were a few commenters who seemed to think that this post represented FDL’s views. And other serious observers will scratch their heads when they see something as mindless as this on the front page. That’s what bothered me.
The sad thing for Jason’s position regarding the MA special election is that I think he’s already lost. Senate Democrats are clearly desparate. Obama is taking a huge risk by going there tomorrow. He’s desparate. Even if she pulls off a win, it’ll be by a narrow margin. No ringing endorsement for Obama’s agenda or for Democrats going into Nov.
I wish the Democrats hadn’t turned off so many Americans, too. I wish they had actually done what they said they were going to do rather than cozy up to Big Business. I’d be supporting Democratic candidates too had the Democratic Party leadership proven that they’re worthy of our support.
I came to Firedoglake after all the years I supported the Democratic Party because I’m sick of it. Since I’ve come here, I’ve learned that the problems are even worse than I thought.
I want a Democratic Party that actually stands for the core Democratic Party principles and values as stated in the platform.
And I’m no longer willing to support Democrats who won’t.
Does that make me an infant? Does it make me an idiot? Does it make me a Naderite?
Sorry, my point is that poor Jason is more frustrated than I am.
Check out the comments. The majority doesn’t think you’re a childish idiot. That’s why the stupidity doesn’t matter. It’s not working. Those who judge FDL based on one diary probably aren’t serious enough about the issues or activism to worry about. There are plenty of other titles on there that make it clear where the majority here stands.
Thanks again! I admit that seeing this post on the front page did set me off. I assumed – perhaps incorrectly – that Jason put it there. Not only did I see it as him deliberately making FDL look bad, but I also saw it as him deliberately trying to antagonize so many of us who argued with him at Seminal diaries for days.
Anyway, I’m fine now. *g*
I hope you’re right about the content on the front page. I’m new here, and if I’d seen some of this stuff Jason is producing a month ago and known he was a moderator, I’m not sure I’d be here at all. I came here because this site and its commentators seemed different. They really seemed to be thinking about issues and possible solutions. Jason is just the same old Democratic drivel.
I’d advise you not to assume that Jason’s is the only opinion here. As I wrote earlier, what he taught me was that he wasn’t worth listening to. That’s an important lesson. Embrace it.
I think that over time more people will come around to see that unqualified support isn’t going to work. I don’t know if I’ll live that long, but I’m hoping. (No, I plan on a normal lifespan.) Meanwhile, keep plugging away.
Sorry I missed this comment before.
She ran a truly awful campaign, that’s for sure.
I have a liberal friend who said that he thinks that Obama’s going up to Mass. to campaign for Coakley is an act of political courage.
I’m not a wicked man. I suppressed the hoots of derision welling up in my dissident breast. :o)
And, more or less quietly, told him that I didn’t think that Obama had a micron of choice in the matter. In fact, repeatedly, he’s shown himself to be so politically dull that I suspect Reid and Pelosi and some others in the democratic “leadership” told him, in no uncertain terms:
“You need to get your ass up there…just on the off-chance that you have an inch or two of coattail left.”
It’s kind of ironic. He’s caught in a Hobson’s Choice largely of his own making. If he doesn’t go and Coakley loses, he’s going to get hammered by the other dems.
Of course, if he does go, and she loses, that is going to be a political disaster of the very first magnitude.
In fact, if he goes and she even wins by a small margin (which I would guess is what will happen…) it should have the democrats shitting green nickels to have the safest Senate seat they “own”, turn out to be at such high risk in the first year of his term, for a president that won by a landslide in 2008.
it’s ridiculous to say that people shouldn’t waste time trying to form a third party. history demonstrates that it is possible to form a third party, just because the political parties we have now have been stable doesn’t mean that there won’t be an opportunity in the future. In fact, the Republicans who are pissed off and the Democrats who are pissed off probably have a lot more in common then people think, and would likely form more of a base than Nader was ever able to garner. People are just getting fed up with the government’s inability to come up with solutions to the nation’s problems, and the self-dealing and cronyism that continues to rear it’s ugly head regardless of party affiliation (does Tim Geithner really want us to believe he played no role in the AIG decision). The fact is that political motivation is driven by economic hardship. The nation is moving into an unprecedented period in its development. We are no longer a country on an upward arc (at the very best, it’s nowhere near as steep as it has been in history). Americans will feel economic suffering that they have never felt before, and therefore there will be a much more angry populace motivated to seek political change, if the current government continues to be incompetent at addressing the nation’s problems. This sounds like fertile ground for the development of a third political party. It may shift the balance of power for a while, but it could also be the flashpoint for real political change that the people are seeking.
See, I agree with your 3rd Party sentiment. I say let the people decide. After the Ron Brown-led DNC tried to stifle a campaign I was involved with years ago, I couldn’t believe that they weren’t letting DemocratIC voters pick who they wanted.
Thing is though, the 1990s were the time for all this, not now when we’re seeing so much improvement on so many levels. Just my opinion…
You should have that tiC looked at by a doctor.
Yeah, I wouldn’t want to get Whine Disease. Seems to be an epidemic around here…;)
There is nothing whiny about holding politicians accountable when they do the precise opposite of what they ran to do :)
I agree to a certain extent, I mean I’d hate to see what happened to Al Gore happen all over again, because I was supporting a third party candidate. But the fact is that neither party is really responding to the needs of the American people, so something has to be done. The difference between now and the 2000 election is that the economy is a lot worse, and the future in America looks a lot less bright. And like I said in my previous post, economic pain drives political passion, so we’re about to enter a whole new phase in American political history. If this doesn’t inspire politicians in DC to be more responsive to the needs of the average person in the country, then people will be looking for new leadership. A new political party that seeks less politically motivated (read: greed-inspired) legislation should be laying the groundwork now for future efforts.
If politics were classified as an economic sector, the Democrats and Republicans could be convicted of illegal restraint of trade through monopoly practices. It is as if you have to pay them rent in order to participate. Imagine treble damages on that shit.
It’s like the ads where the Coke Zero gets sued by Coke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-s_TAgM2_M
More Coke suing Coke Zero:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrJ9hrAAeIU
The perfect analogy of Dems v. Rethugs.
Dah-Dah da-da-da Dah!
What JackLint said at 513.
I believe depicting the people who are angry at Obama and the dems reprising of some of bush’s worst policies and mistakes, as: tilting at windmills, is worth a little “invective”. :o)
Sporko: thanks. :o)
TiwaTewa @ 524: “You are making this vote into something it’s not.”
With all due respect, I think you are whistling past the graveyard.
The fact that Obama has had to go up there in the effort to avoid the horrible political embarassment of the democrats losing Ted Kennedy’s old seat, and in so doing has had to expose himself to the even worse risk of having his personal prestige and clout be revealed as practically nil, should tell you all you need to know about the realities of the Massachusetts Senate race and it’s implications.
It’s why I’ve been saying that I think Coakley would make a fine sacrificial goat. If she loses, O. and the democrats will HAVE to ask themselves:
“What are we doing wrong?”
And they will have to decide if they need to be more conservative or more progressive, to avoid more of the same in 10 months.
I think forcing them to make that decision is a good idea. :o)
If, after watching all of the hope and promise and enthusiasm of the voters who gave them a big win in 2008 turn to cynicism and anger in a state that the democrats haven’t lost since Methusalah was a child, they cannot then divine the right answer, then I feel, very strongly, that a third party isn’t just a cattle prod to use on them, but is a viable alternative to a group of politicians who could fuck up an anvil.
Just wait til Coakley loses, we can send thank you notes to Obama and Emmanuel.
I’m sure that Rahm will just triangulate to fuck us over in any event.
These are the top donors to Obama, not little people.
University of California $1,591,395
Goldman Sachs $994,795
Harvard University $854,747
Microsoft Corp $833,617
Google Inc $803,436
Citigroup Inc $701,290
JPMorgan Chase & Co $695,132
Time Warner $590,084
Sidley Austin LLP $588,598
Stanford University $586,557
National Amusements Inc $551,683
UBS AG $543,219
Wilmerhale Llp $542,618
Skadden, Arps et al $530,839
IBM Corp $528,822
Columbia University $528,302
Morgan Stanley $514,881
General Electric $499,130
US Government $494,820
Latham & Watkins $493,835
So he’s most beholden to the University of California then, by far?
Well, of course Obama completely shattered every record from small and indivisual donors in history, so again, that total amount far surpasses what he raised from the specific industries/places. Obama is most beholden to the smaller, individual donor.
Notice how Open Secrets doesn’t even list the “under $200″ donor amounts? This is where Obama really shattered the records.
Should be interesting to watch them flail around in the news.
Ah… The penny drops.
THANK YOU Jason.
Wow, someone posted an article that’s entirely sensible, logical, and based in knowledge and effectiveness, instead of emotions and shouting! What’s going on around here? Are we losing our ability to form a “Progressive’s Circular Firing Squad”?
Any more articles like this and next thing you know, we might be getting organized and actually making a difference. Instead of, you know TALKING about making a difference but really just blowing off steam and arguing with each other.
Jason is 100% correct and we need more clear-thinking adults like him. Infants master Delayed Gratification somewhere around the age of 3. Some of us Progressives still don’t have the hang of it yet.
Best article I’ve seen on FDL in a long time.
p.s.: All the children (in mind if not age) out there saying “If the Republican wins, who cares? They’re both the same!” are either well-off white males who won’t be affected by their policies, or willfully blinded by ignorance. Or Ralph Nader.
I love these folks who talk about “the system crashing” and violent revolution like they don’t have a care in the world about the millions who would die if that happened. Some of these people need to actually spend some time in a country that’s had a revolution and learn an ounce of sense.
Don’t blame me, I voted for Jimmy Carter?
I have mastered political gratification in local politics. But WWII was won in 4.5 years. I votes for Carter 30 years ago this November, my first election. How much more must we delay gratification before making any demands? I’m not a Christian, when you die the lights go out, click. There is no reward in the afterlife, we’ve got to get what we can while we’re still here.
If Coakley loses, we might consider being kind to Rahm and instead of sending a dead fish, maybe we should send a change of underwear, because, I promise you, if Ted Kennedy’s seat goes republican one year after Obama’s big win, AND after Obama went up to lay it on the line…
Mr. Emmanuel will have shit himself. :o)
I’m really, really looking forward to that!
SgSg, can you tell us the differences in Obama’s policies and George Bush’s?
Just askin…:o)
He was also once quoted as supporting Single Payer. Ha!
what he said 8 years ago matters not at all.
what he does in office, does.
and he is adding to, consolidating, and entrenching in law and precedent the graft and corruption you claim to decry. Are you able to read Glenn Greenwald on these subjects, or do you avoid bearers of unpleasant news?
an authentic reformer could never have come in a millions miles of receiving the Democratic nomination – it was pure pony-wishing and self-delusion to think otherwise.
Completely disagree. Things have gotten substanitally better over this past year on almost every front. And with that, must run along and download my talking points from Obama HQ for tomorrow.
Well that explains everything…. “Bonkers” is a wall street banker. They’re the only ones “things” have gotten better for and its understandable why one of “them” would love the backstabbing pathalogically lying sack of dog poop of a POTUS we’re stuck with
that is true, and I was telling my “liberal/Democratic” friends this sad point…
I guess attending a socialist group allows the debate to be honest, instead of forcing all ideas inside this narrow field of what is considered “legitimate debate.”—thus, being able to see what Obama really was was 2+2=4, simple stuff…
Honest answers to real problems cannot, by definition, be solved by the democratic party—FACT. The reason is that the democratic party exists within a system designed to limit true democracy in this country (and unfortunately the world), leaving the real power in the hands of fewer and fewer rich and corporate hands.
We see Obama tap Bush and Clinton to watch over the Haiti relief money, and no media (nor Obama, obviously) point out that Clinton and Bush both had a direct role in taking democracy from the people of Haiti (shame on Obama-what an insult).
Nite, lakers.
And remember, when it comes to Lieberman:
Don’t support those who kiss ‘im where evolution splits ‘im.
I don’t think we should be bashing Jason. After all, he’s created one of the most provocative threads I’ve seen on here in a while. In fact, with what is happening politically, I’d say this is probably going to be the more-or-less opening salvo in the barrage that’s coming. What better place to have it than FDL? :o)
And, unlike the people doing all the pearl-clutching about the strength of feelings and/or “invective” on this subject, I think it’s great that we’re having this debate, and nemmind the passion. Same old/same old:
If you aren’t pissed off, you haven’t been paying attention.
I would add the old saying:
“Folks, you may not believe in reality, but reality sure believes in you.”
AKA: “You can’t chop your momma up in Massachusetts…”
But you can sure as hell get the attention of a bunch of slacker “centrists” up there. :o)
hear…
The issue I have with Jason is not his opinions or pov, that’s his prerogative, it’s the lame way he argues with people who disagree with him. He refuses to address what they say, and calls names, changes the subject, or brings up Nader or reps as boogiemen to imply that his opinion is the only correct one. He’s not debating in good faith, he’s flamewarring. It annoys me, so I do my best to ignore it.
That Coakley sure ran a lousy campaign.
Exactly, and this is a place where that stuff is pretty transparent. People here are thinkers and debaters. Arguments like that just make the person spouting them look like they can’t actually respond to the debate. On other sites, it would worry me more. I hate that stuff in the mainstream media, for example, because so many seeing it will fall for it. But even there, lots of people are catching on. I have so much more hope for my country after seeing the reaction in the polls to the summer of public option insanity. Good thing because when I see how little effect that whole experience had on what the Dems are trying to sell us as the legislation we should bow down to them for giving us for generations, I need all the hope I can get.
That Coakley really did run a lousy campaign. She should have run more to the right. Kind of makes me feel sorry for Obama trying to be all Republican and all with an FDL base instead of a Beck base. He should have tagged Palin for VP and run as a Republican and he’d never have to answer those annoying questions about how his actions compare to his campaign promises.
He should pick Leiberman as VP for 2012, and campaign on reinstating Glass-Steagal, Single Payer health care, and bringing the troops home. Good plan, huh? Oy, cripes, I don’t think I’d be surprised if he did.
Lieberman won’t go for it. Haven’t you noticed how much more power he has than Biden? Biden is hardly ever on the Sunday shows and being the 51st vote is so last century. The 60th vote is the place to be these days. Anyway, he can’t campaign on single payer and bringing the troops home because he’s all askeered of the right wingers and being called a lying socialist weakling who doesn’t have the guts to bomb several countries at once and check every Muslim who passes through for safe underwear. He’s not afraid of being called a lying campaign promise breaking corporatist too weak to tell his own party or even himself to take their minds off the benefits of corruption for five minutes to maybe spare a thought for those who gave them their jobs. I noticed you don’t see or hear as much from Michelle these days. Is she as disgusted with the man he has become as the rest of us are?
Dunno what Michelle thinks, Paula. Spoiler! It just occured to me, since I WANT Coakley to lose I’m what you call a Spoiler. I admit I like it better than Naderite, I ripped down a couple of his posters I saw last summer ’cause they irritated me. Too bad, Ralph. You really couldn’t come up with a more perfect opportunity to send a message to the dems in congress about what will happen if they cross us than Coakley losing, it’s a gift.
: )
I want her to lose, too. It would be closer if she hadn’t been off schmoozing and taking big bucks from the lobbyists we absolutely don’t need to have more power in Washington. That was a gift to me because it made my choice and conscience clear. I just don’t get how the same people who swear they want to get Lieberman and Nelson and Baucus’ bought butts out of the Senate are desperate to get her bought butt in. But denial is a strong thing and people only come out of it when they are ready to handle the truth, I suppose.
Nader has bugged the crap out of me since I was a child. It’s not that I haven’t agreed with much of what he has always said. It’s just that his personality and his style rub me the wrong way. I’d hate to have him as president because he’d be an embarrassment to me in a different way than Bush was as our face to the world, but still an embarrassing presentation. But then, a great presentation got us the mess we are in now, so why should anyone care what I think?
So, spoiler squad it is, I suppose. Here’s to future elections where there are real progressive options and we have nothing to spoil! But, yeah, I’m kinda thinking my prayers were answered as far as this candidate for this seat in this position at this time. No guarantees they won’t still mess everything up, but at least there’s an opportunity to try an intervention.
“Here’s to future elections where there are real progressive options and we have nothing to spoil!”
Cheers to that, PaulaT. And a good night to you, way past my bedtime…
: )
oh, and just because i haven’t mentioned it on this thread yet. anyone who thinks dems in MA should reflexively vote dem when that vote may significantly undermine healthcare in our state has, imo, a responsibility for honestly making the case why we should be expected do that. being called a naderite isn’t sufficient.
p.s. i don’t know what i’m going to on tuesday — the only thing i know is i’m not going to give anyone a hard time for their well considered vote, dem or otherwise, or nonvote.
A facebook friend posted today about how the Dems should ping pong the Senate bill and pass it on Monday for political strategy reasons. When I pointed out that if they passed the Senate bill, they’d be committing political suicide because left, right and center hate it, she said that as far as she knew uninsured people didn’t hate it. We had a long conversation about people theorizing their way to doing things that will hurt me and people like me substantially in real life in the name of helping people like me out in theory. A side rant was on people playing with my health and welfare for political gamesmanship.
It seemed to me that there was a big message in there that Mass, which has a similar plan, was not falling for the vote for Coakley so we can get this bill passed line. I wasn’t sure what it was, but even from my distance, it looked like there was something specific going on that would be very significant. Hearing that it will actually make what is working in your plan worse would explain how even higher numbers than those who just hate the plan completely are revolting. I am proud of myself for not ripping Jason a new one over his comments about the unmitigated positive of Medicaid expansion. Who hasn’t heard about the grumblings from states like CA over that one who is actually following the debate enough to be giving people advice?
Capuano told the House this was coming and now here it is. I really hope they get the message and I have some hope that at least Pelosi is. She’s not stupid and I don’t think she’s a Harry Reid who will risk her own career for Obama. Maybe we’ll get an independent legislature after all. Just in time to turn down war money requests, hopefully.
i don’t think people know this. and of course, we don’t know for sure exactly what the final obamacare bill will be like. although all signs so far are not good. romneycare is seriously flawed and has no way to control costs other than limiting care. still it’s almost uniformly better than either the house or senate bills (the ones we’ve seen).
but hope you are right. but have seen no evidence so far (just the opposite – remember fisa?). after the past year, hope is not enough for me. but still i hope.
Naderites? Spare us the ad hominem, please. Standing up for what is right is not something to try to insult people for. And it was Nader who revived the “Democratic wing” of the Democratic party from subservience to Clintonian triangulation (i.e. corporate sellout in cahoots with the GOP). So if you’re a real reformer, as opposed to the lip service kind, send him a thank you card.
This message to “Pissed off Progressives” proceeds from a false premise to make a case against voting for “third party” candidates. The reality is that, based on names alone, there are but two major parties. These both attempt to advance the saem corporatist, i.e., rich people’s, agenda. The author is confused because that single party has given itself two names to divide and conquer the more numerous voters who are not rich.
The advent of the openly “bipartisam” Obama administration has unmasked the two party charade by placing Republicans in policy making positions. Current political events have effectively demonstrated the unity of the Democratic and Republican parties concerning issues that are important to the owners of the large business corporations, and therefore, the United States government.
The result of having one party with two names is that those identifying with the “progressive” wing of the Democratic Party and the “conservative” wing of the Republican party have no ideological homes. They are the docked tails of the U.S. political system. Neither political view has a seat at the table under the banner of either major party.
Please trouble us no more with blather about “third party” candidates. If anything let’s work to create a second party to field populist candidates with a platform of “people before profits.” There might even be some “conservatives” that would want in becuase of issues like civil rights and individual freedoms.
Yes, I think there might be a few real conservatives who would be interested–I know one. Oddly enough, he’s having something of the same problem progressives are having in that he’s being lambasted for not wanting to vote Republican even though he maintains that the Republican party is no longer the party of true conservatives and doesn’t represent his views.
After reading this article, I didn’t realize April Fools Day was here already.
My, how time flies.
Can we just call this the lead balloon diary? There’s stuff happening and it isn’t merely among the Democratic base that the Democratic leadership uses for a foot wipe. Take a look at Obama’s approval rating among independents only. Hard to miss that, yes? How about Obama’s job approval on health care? Hard to miss that one too!
The problem is that people are having a hard time telling the Bush years apart from what we have now. People wanted change. They didn’t get it. What they got were more bailouts for Wall Street, double digit unemployment, more war and a push for a “health care” bill that stinks. Republicans are going populist in response…when it’s the Dems who should have seized the moment from the second the new administration was sworn in. But they didn’t. And now someone wants to come along and tell us that we should just go along with more of the same? Well…people don’t work that way.
Like FDR biographer Jean Smith said in the NY Times back in September, “the Democratic Party has forgotten how to govern and the White House has forgotten how to lead.”
Don’t insult me by telling me to not go “Naderite.” How about telling the Democratic Party to not go Republidemocratican? They came in with a mandate for progressive change. That’s what people thought they were voting for. That isn’t what they got. Why on earth would anyone reasonable expect people to turn out for that bait and switch tactic again?
One last thing…
I am sick, sick, sick of people trying to motivate me to vote Democrat based on how awful the Republicans are. It’s cartoonish and shallow. How about giving me a real reason (and not bait and switch) to vote for Democrats rather than merely against Republicans?
I am not a “party first” kind of guy. My priorities are family, principle and nation. The political interests of any particular person or party are way down the list.
I’ve been a loyal Democratic voter for years. I kept believing in the idea that as soon as we had control of the White House and both houses of congress that we’d finally see results that reflected what the Democratic Party says that it stands for. Well…fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice? Shame on me. The “what ya gonna do, vote Republican” stuff doesn’t work any more. I won’t vote Republican. I’ll vote for real progressives, or I won’t vote at all.
There’s a simpler term for that:
Lieberite
I proudly voted for Nader in 2000 (yes, in Ohio) and voted for green or other progressive third party candidates in the 1990s. I started my politics within the democratic party in the 1980s and learned a lot. I voted for Kerry and Obama in 04 and 08 respectively. I have no real commitment to parties but rather to issues.
On foreign policy, both major U.S. parties are imperialistic, largely driven by U.S. corporate agendas, have consistently f-ed up the Middle East, and love Israel in their military and economic policies. And they are perfectly fine with corrupt regimes that repress their people as long as it suits U.S. economic and geo-political interests. They have also done little to support poor and working class people in the U.S., keeping the “revolving door” between corporate, lobbying, and government sectors well-oiled. And certainly U.S. cities and inner ring suburbs have suffered a lot, especially in places like Ohio, where the corruption and elitism (always fed by racism)also infects state government policy. I would rather vote for a third party than not vote. That actually makes a difference and has the potential to impact the major candidates. Why else would Rosenbaum tell us not to “waste our vote?” Obviously run off voting is superior.
Voted Democrat all my life until Obama came along (I wrote in Hillary’s name). And now that the Dems have majorities, how have they spent it? Being JUST LIKE BUSH — on war, spending, gay issues, FISA. And then there’s the whole “let’s try to shame the bankers” which worked about as well as denouncing Hitler back in the day. And what kind of President do we get? One that throws a party every night, plays golf during his days with the sexual deviant Tiger Woods, and accepts a bogus Nobel Prize he didn’t earn.
I won’t vote repub, but I PROUDLY won’t vote for Dems either. I’ll keep writing in names on every ballot until someone proves they’ll abide by the party platform. In the meantime, I’ll actively work in Missouri to make sure Obama is a one-termer in 2012.
Good grief; I bailed somewhere around @160.
ralphbon!
what can i say? i’m stubborn to a fault. probably some pathological personality trait.
Riiiight, because it’s not as though the Democrats haven’t spent the last three years since assuming nominal control of Congress CONTINUING to bend over backwards to appease the GOP by passing virtually everything the GOP demands. Nor is it as though Obama hasn’t spent every day since becoming Bush’s successor CONTINUING and, in some cases, EXPANDING Bush policies, right?
Voting for the Democrats, especially without lifting a finger to make them earn our votes, has done more harm to the progressive cause than anything else. Trying to bully us into voting against our interests, using the most flimsy of arguments, doesn’t cut it anymore. Those of us who will not be bullied will continue voting our principles. You claim it accomplishes nothing. If that were true, then neither does voting Democrat — but at least we can say we voted for the candidates who represent us, and we can still look at ourselves in the mirror (for those of us who shave our faces, this makes for fewer cuts and missed areas). And since it’s not true, because it sends the message to the establishment that we are not content with the status quo and we are working to change or abolish it, your argument effectively stands on nothing but an unearned sense of entitlement to votes from the public. You have no case for how or why Democrats have governed any differently than the Republicans, and therefore have no legitimate promises that we can expect better from having even more Democrats in power or keeping the ones we have.
Do us all a favor: save your baloney for people who enjoy the taste of it. More and more progressives want something with substance, and since you’re not offering it, we’ll go elsewhere.
wow, the HCAN shill – funny how blog-o-topia is the latest greatest gonna change the world !!! thing, and we end up with know it all follow me or shut up jackasses trying to be in charge, just like pre-blog-o-topia!
you been attending conferences with armando & bowers & geekesque and dhinmi ??
by the say – 1 of the great things about the blogs is exposing the slimeballs who aren’t upfront about who’s paying who … how come I had to google you to find out about the HCAN employment?
calling voters nadarites – face it, you’re MOST concerned with being a big shot and being invited to the RIGHT parties – are you a little luke with daddy pushing you through life, or, a wannabee little luke?
rmm.
HELL NO. Barring some kind of sudden about-face, Obama and the Democrats lost my vote, because THEY FAILED. The White House moved to the right and triangulated against progressives. I’m not going to suck it up and clean up their mess and I won’t be blackmailed by the asinine claim of being a Naderite. Nader didn’t cause Bush to be elected, a POOR CANDIDATE CALLED AL GORE FAILED TO WIN. And if Obama and the Democrats lose their power to the right, they have no one to blame but themselves and their neo-liberal policies–and people like YOU who attempt to enable them.
DanRockridge Quote:
Obama and the Democrats lost my vote, because THEY FAILED.
If that is your view then I agree that is your only real choice. That may very well be my judgment also, and like you – if I am going to vote I want my vote to count!
Voting for a candidate that failed you would normally imply that you accept something like a one party system! I believe the professional political class would describe such people as bought and paid for!
Candidates who support or accept, plurality voting systems, as well as single-member districts, obviously do not favor representative democracy. Any belief that such a candidate would represent you, if elected, must be very weak!
Note IMO, voters in the U.S. often confuse political labels with political parties.
SEE: Can You Define What a Political Party is?
boy is this post spot-on
system sucks, but it is what it is – it punishes purests, which in turn punishes all of us and continually sets humanity back.
I can’t stand vichy dems and obama, but I sure won’t not vote for them – the alternative is unthinkable (like getting christi in NJ). (unfortunately the dems govern knowing this full well)
I will never vote for either a Democrat or Republican ever again. They are both members of the same corporatist party, and they have both shown in abundance that regardless of what they campaign on or promise, in the end they will do what their corporate masters tell them.
The idea that one should vote for a Democrat to avoid the oh-so-terrible Republican is exactly they kind of media spin BS that keeps the same corrupt 2 parties (that are actually one party) system going.
Just watch the so-called progressive caucus in the House sell us out by going along with this joke of health reform. Progressives in name only shouldnt get progressive votes just because they throw around the label in their rhetoric. Their actions speak truth, and that truth is they serve their corporate masters at the expense of the American people.
If Dems and GOP are part of the same party then why is every single Republican voting against HCR? Why did the vast majority of Republicans vote against the Lilly Ledbetter act? Why did the vast majority of Republicans vote against S-CHIP expansion? I’m sure the millions of kids who were uninsured a year ago, but now can go on S-Chip, are glad I voted Democrat. You “progressive” teabaggers are nothing more than deluded know-nothing-know-it-all nihilists.
I am sick and tired of obama apologists trotting out the Lilly Ledbetter Act as some ordained proof that the Dems are the goodness in the world. One decent law does not a party make. I guess when the Bushies kept trotting out Bush’s Aids work in Africa, which was good, that made the overwhelming negativity of his presidency great right? Get real.
And the HCR reform is an perfect example of how these parties collude to reach the goals their corporate masters desire. Leiberman couldnt pull his “to get my vote you must make this a corporate giveaway” unless the Republicans where set to vote against it. Its based in the same Kabuki where what used to be necessary, a 50 seat majority, has not been conveniently pushed to needing 60.
The Kabuki feigns this intense need for “compromise”, but funny how “compromise” always seems to work in the favor of corporations.
More of the same?
-Ignoring War Criminals who conducted torture
-Refusing to comply with Freedom of Information Act requests even after the Judicial branch agrees with the lawsuit.
-Indefinite Detention
-Rendition, and farming out those kidnapped to third party countries for torture
-Extra-judicial Assassinations via Predator Drones
-Covert Wars conducted with no Authorization (Pakistan, Yemen)
-Bail out after bail out to Wallstreet, handing over taxpayer money to private corporations
-Dems didnt repeal tax cuts to rich as promised, claim plan to allow them to expire.
-Highest defense budget in history, and dems+ Obama continue to fund the wars with supplemental spending bills against their state promises.
-Over 100,000 troops still in Iraq
-Department of Justice that continues to serve the WH instead you know, Justice.
-Tiered and Unconstitutional system of trials for Guantanamo detainees which tries them in whichever court that they can convict in, unless all evidence is tainted, in which case we will look them up indefinitely.
-Guantanamo is still open
-Recent revelations of a black sight at Bagram airforce base in Afghanistan what we wont allow Red Cross into. Obama said he had closed all the black sites.
And the list goes on and on. Some of you want to close your eyes, repeat a few of the PR scams, and feel better about your government. Anyone actually paying attention to the actions that so often contradict the rhetoric, see how self-delusional you people are.
What about the millions of kids who now have healthcare?
Guantanamo will be closed but they have to figure out the logisitics first. Obama has been trying to close it but no one wants those people in their districts. Blaming that on Obama is both silly and ignorant.
You think it is just as easy as snapping one’s fingers. It’s not. Your expectations for this presidency were naive. Reality complicates things. I expect a lot of those things on your list to be done by the end of his first four years. But I was under no illusions Obama could wave his magic wand and make all that is wrong with the world right.
I’m dubious Obama will close Guantanamo–and if he does, he’ll most likely send the prisoners/detainees overseas to E. European gulags with the rest of the rendered souls. They always get around things.
BTW, I’m in my forties.
Ok here is a few keeping in mind that Republican presidents have dominated during your lifetime:
- Civil Rights Act
- Voting Rights Act
- Medicare
- Peace between Egypt, Jordan and Israel
- S-Chip
- Lilly Ledbetter Act
Okay, I wasn’t making myself clear…after LBJ what have the Dems done? Civil and Voting Rights, Medicare are all Johnson. I’ll give you the others. Not to pooh-pooh those–it ain’t a stellar record in 40 yrs.
Half of the things on the list are things Obama and the Dems are actively engaged in and escalating, not things he hasnt had time to do. So your argument of “its only been 1 year!” is very weak. Closing of Guantanamo is the ultimate example of Obama PR scams. He even tells you that in the reason for closing it by siting that its a blight on our image (a PR issue).
When we are still rendering folks to Bagram and other third party sites, and having them tortured (this is all public knowledge, go educate yourself), closing Guantanamo is meaningless other than just a PR ploy (which again, Obama even tells you is the point- it makes us look bad). If the same activities are going on just somewhere else, there was no change. To not see that is willful blindness.
What about Bagram? FISA? Afghanistan and the “surge?”
so, tell us – how is voting for ‘change’ and then getting what we’ve gotten
(upcoming MASSIVE giveaway to the the pharma and insurance corporatocracy; continued kowtowing to the financial lobby – no reform, no new regs, just perp walks and political theatre in the guise of ‘hearings’; no movement on labour reform (i.e., the so-called ‘card check’ unionization bill); no closing of gitmo; escalation rather than wind-down of afghanistan; continued MASSIVE defense spending (800 BILLION defense department (ONLY) approved for the coming fiscal year alone – not including the ‘supplemental’ spending bills already approved and the prospect of more in the coming year – all while being told we have no money for 10 YEARS of health care…); the list can go on, and we’re only one year into the administration of ‘change’… how can this be considered ‘change’ and that we should continue dancing to this tune?
stop telling people there are only two brands of shit we can eat… as long as we settle for merely two faces of the same corporatocracy, we’re not going to get ANY change…
I’ve read this same article (Jason’s) countless times on countless blogs in countless forms for the last 10 frickin’ years. It never changes. The same flawed strategy. Elect better Dems. Lesser evilism. Etc. Etc. Has it worked? I think we all know the answer.
I voted for Nader in 2008, and I don’t feel guilty. I knew Barry O would be a bust. Was my vote effective? No, of course not.
Not to be a downer–but there are NO real alternatives, unless people get out in the streets and demand change. Will this happen? Not in the near future. Middle class suburbanites like myself will have to feel mega, mega pain before anyone of us gets off our ass and screams truth to power. But we are on our way, folks. Marx was right. Capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction. The anarchists are right, as well. You cannot base a whole civilization on a corrupt, unequal class system which at the same time degrades human relations and society–and shits on the environment. It is unsupportable in the long run.
Who did you vote for in 2000?
Nader in 2000. Kerry in 2004.
You are responsible for at least the first 4 years of Bush’s presidency. You are responsible for him attacking Iraq and the hundreds of thousands of people who died in that pointless war. You are responsible for the horrible environmental policy of Bush that is destroying our planet as we speak. You are responsible for the backwards scientific policies of Bush, like banning federal funding for stem cell research and the millions of lives it could have saved. You should be ashamed.
It’s got to be Nader’s vote on the Supreme Court which makes him so evil…
No, but if Gore was elected then O’Connor and Rehnquist would have been replaced by liberals and we would have had a very liberal court. Think what that would do for gay rights. Not that you guys care about any of that. Your nihilistic pseudo-populism tactics is obviously the right path because it has helped so many people to date. [/sarcasm]
This is just conjecture. On the other hand, we know for a fact that Alito, Roberts, Thomas, Scalia, all had plenty of help from Democrats in being appointed.
Clinton, who considered himself at the time to be a moderate Democrat, appointed very liberal justices. If you honestly believe Gore appointing liberal justices is mere conjecture, then you are either very deluded or ignorant or both.
By your thinking, we should abolish democracy. Your voice sounds quite authoritarian. And that’s the problem with the US system. It’s very autocratic.
You can vote for whomever you like. But I’m still well within my right to point out the simple fact that you won’t get any of your goals accomplished by voting for unelectable purity trolls. In fact your actions will result in reactionary policies, and that has been the case thus far.
The purity epithet is well-worn. But it falls flat to me. If we were more like the French–demanding our rights in the streets–we wouldn’t be having this discussion about purity. People–and I include myself in this–are lazy. But we also lack organization. Electoral politics is really a sham in the US. Not in France or in Europe. Because the people have a little leverage there. Not perfect, but serviceable. Hint: that’s the model we should working toward.
In fact, all Nader voters (not just the ones in Florida, mind you) are PURELY EVIL!!! They’re responsible for eight years of Bush, eight years of Reagan, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the gout, the swine flu, and dandruff! They are INJUSTICE INCARNATE! They’re OPENLY in the pay of SATAN! They are the ULTIMATE and IMMEDIATE cause of racism, sexism, heterosexism, poverty, war, famine, mass murder, dictatorship, and BAD BREATH!
Damn, that was a funny post. Thanks.
If it helps you get up in the morning by painting my position with such silliness then go ahead, but you know what the facts are.
I can’t name one substantive thing the Dems have done for the American people in my lifetime. Maybe Family Leave and taxing the fat cats (very slightly) under Clinton. Since Johnson, it’s been a wash. Why vote for failure again and again?
Tell me how old you are then I’ll give it my best shot.
It’s no sillier than what you and Rosenbaum are talking. Kick ass, vegan, whyfaith, gnome, cassio et al.
Facts, facts.
It was 2000. Bush was running as a “moderate Republican.” Gore was running ineptly, and with studied indifference to the possibility of winning, like he’d rather lose. The day before the election, half the Nader voters switched to voting for Gore. The Florida voter lists had been pre-scrubbed, using an illegal method, by a Republican governor claiming to enforce a law against felon voters. This tactic excluded 94,000 voters overall. The election of Presidential electors in Florida was itself marked by widespread irregularities, Republican obstructionism, and Democratic indifference (the Republican machine kicked into high gear in Florida just after the vote, while Gore spent the whole time in DC asking his elite buddies what he should do). Gore actually won the Florida vote, but proving this would have been the outcome of a full recount, whereas Gore only had the guts to ask for a partial recount. The final result, as also the result of the 2000 election, was decided by a narrow, arbitrary, and capricious Supreme Court decision.
The manufactured Florida “vote total,” as it turned out, was so close that if you had added the votes of Socialist Party candidate David McReynolds to Gore’s totals, Gore would have been the proclaimed (i.e manufactured) “winner.” McReynolds, unfortunately, is not important enough to the Nader-haters to qualify as a successful pariah.
The reigning logic holds candidates responsible for the psychological states of their voters, but only selectively. Thus Ralph Nader is responsible for having swayed prospective Gore voters, but Al Gore is not to be held responsible for the 12% of Florida Democrats who voted for Bush.
Moreover, Ralph Nader is to be held responsible for all of the other things the Democratic Party didn’t do after Bush’s election. Nader is to be held responsible for Bush’s invasion of Iraq and the USA PATRIOT Act, even though the deciding votes for these measures were cast by Democrats.
Excellent post cassiodorus. Insightful and well-written.
Thanks!
Oh, come on, get a grip.
veganrevolution is responsible for a stolen election? Responsible for a packed Supreme Court? Responsible for the fact that the Gore campaign buckled under the Repug machine? Have you no shame?
I voted the same way, for the most part. With me it was Nader – 2000, Kerry – 2004, and Kucinich – 2008 as a write-in. I like Ralph Nader, I like his politics, but his strategies and tactics suck ass. He should have stayed in the Green Party and tried to build it up, or if he couldn’t get the personality politics-crippled Greens organized, built up a new organization. No candidate runs for office without an organization backing him up and has any chance of winning. Nader seems to have forgotten this lesson, and it’s a real shame, too. He’d have my vote again in a heartbeat if he’d only join in building an effective political movement.
I am personally fed up with continually rewarding bad behavior in this country. Electrocute and/or rape soldiers? Get another contract. Run your bank into the ground? Get a huge freaking bonus. Be wrong about everything that comes out of your mouth? Continue to get page space and airtime. Quit your job as governor? Be hailed as a hero and get rich selling books and being on Fox. Be a huge disappointment to people that voted for you because you lied about nearly every campaign promise? Have people vote for you simply because you’re not a Republican. Can’t we evolve enough in this country to develop more than two political parties? I’m tired of voting for the lesser of two evils and rewarding bad behavior.
The hippies and radicals of the Sixties had it right, though I was too young as a Gen Xer to experience that era, I still have fleeting recollections of what was going on. There has been a concerted effort by both liberals and conservatives to erase that era from memory. Why is that? Chomsky says it’s because there was too much democracy. I’d add there was a profound awakening. You can’t argue with that.
Imagination, folks. 40 years ago there was imagination. We are stuck now in a conformist culture, built on lies and corruption. The political paradigm of today is ossified.
So if Wall Street proclaimed its unanimous love of puppies you’d be the first to denounce them as evil?
At 637, PaulaT says:
“I just don’t get how the same people who swear they want to get Lieberman and Nelson and Buacus’s bought butts out of the Senate are desperate to get her (Coakley’s) bought butt in.”
I believe that’s the 8-ball in the side pocket. :o)
If we keep on supporting these faux progressives, we have no one to blame but ourselves for the “leadership” telling us to go shit in our hats when we want them to risk a little political capital by BEING leaders.
I am FIRED up by the possibility that THE dead-lock-in-the-blue-column state just may drop a stool sample in Obama’s “centrist” chiffon congeal.
There is nothing that would shake up the dems like losing that seat. Period. Exclamation point.
And I ask again, what precious progressive legislation is Obama contemplating that losing the filibuster-buster jellyfish seat would jeapordize? Is he going to come out next month for a real public option and then cut funding for the twin clusterfucks and start pulling out troops, to help pay for it?
Enquiring former Obama supporters want to know. :o)
Wow, congratulations, Jason. Sounds like a winning strategy. Contributors like you are perfect proof that everyone reading this site gets off on spinning their wheels. “Waaah, I’m so disappointed that the world isn’t liberal. Let’s read and post on a a moderate liberal blog website. That will ensure change is near! Obama is good because he ran on the democratic ticket. Mom bought me an ice kweem cone!” Maybe rename the site. “www.iwishdemocratswerenotpartofthebusinessparty.com” ? You people need to get serious. For example, don’t dedicate 50% of this website bemoaning attacks on gay rights. Instead, write something about how “God” sits in the oval office, both houses of congress, and the supreme court, and then go to church. It is Sunday, after all. If you truly want change, it’s time to A)start researching the difficulty of obtaining citizenship in other countries or B) get the hell off the blue bus and start from scratch.
Jason’s wrong about us being “Naderites”, and anyway, what cost us that election was the fact that the republicans were successful at dressing Al Gore in Monica’s cum-stained blue jumper.
Poor Al and the dems never got it that he needed so be pro-active about admitting that Clinton’s ‘hounding around in the oval office was both stupid and sleazy, but that we was NOT Clinton.
Oh. I also look at it this way: At least, we didn’t wind up with Joe Lieberman as the veep, from which platform he might then have won the presidency and promulgated a region-wide mid-east war. Of course, we’ve sorta got one now, but let’s not let the perfect become the enemy of the good. :o)
Romo@698:
Not so fast. Let’s see how electable a very IMPURE “progressive” from the safest democratic state in the Union is, next week. If she goes down, or really, if it’s even close, given what a peckerhead conservative Brown is, I’m going to interpret that as one hell of a lot of democratic voters staying home in disgust at the feckless sellout that Obama has done on us.
In fact, I’ll go you one better: If she loses or it’s even close (for me, preferably the former…) the democrats will have to ask themselves “What are we doing wrong?”
I think that would be an excellent idea. Does your mileage vary? :o)
One final note, I find it offensive to claim not voting for parties that are grossly amoral by being complicit in War Crimes by protecting those who committed them, which is in itself a War Crime, as being child like.
I suppose actually choosing ones actions based on ones professed beliefs must catch a lot of American Christians off guard.
romo,
You do understand that Coakley may very well lose on Tues. In MA, a Democrat may very well lose the seat that Ted Kennedy held for over three decades.
After the Democrats’ great electoral victories in ’06 and ’08, why do you think that is? How do you explain it?
How do you explain why so many Americans went from super-enthused to vote for Democrats to having so little interest in going out to vote for them in less than a year?
I actually don’t think Brown will win, he has never polled above 50%. He has a high floor, because of his large and energized base of support, but his ceiling is low. There are just not enough people to vote for him.
Anyhow if Coakley loses I would attribute it to an energized conservative movement and ignorant and naive ‘progressives’ who thought electing Obama would result in world peace. They didn’t elect him with the understanding that change would require a LONG HARD slog to quote Cheney. They want everything now and since they can’t have it they resort to nihilism.
The people at the DSCC are scared out their minds that she’s so close to losing. Obama is taking a huge political risk by running to MA today because he’s scared out his mind that she’s so close to losing.
Energized conservative movement and naive “progressives”?
This is about the fact that Americans – who voted enthusiastically for Democrats in ’06 and ’08 – saw what the Democrats actually do when they’re in power and dominated by corporatist sellouts and, in less than a year, are not at all interested in voting for Democrats.
Your blaming the base of the Democratic Party in MA for not having much interest in voting for Coakley on Tues to anything other than the huge failure of Democrats in ’09 is ridiculous.
The very fact that Obama is compelled to go up to Massachusetts to try to save Coakley (and his and the dems’) asses, is huge. I mean, the size of Mt. Everest…and if it turns out he couldn’t do it, the implications for all the “centrist” bullshit that O. and the dem “leadership” have been selling, will be just as large.
Does anyone on here seriously think that if they lose Kennedy’s made-of-granite seat in this flagship liberal-democrat state, they will interpret it as being because they weren’t conservative enough?
Please tell me you don’t believe that.
It will be up there pulsating and throbbing like it was a sexual-aids-device-Mt. Rushmore, that fucking over all of the democrats and independents who believed that they would bring real change, has a direct and politically lethal penalty.
If anyone on here has a better way to rub their noses in that than pulling our support for Coakley, then for God’s sake, post it.
By Jason’s logic in this post – a post that never should have been put up on the front page of Firedoglake -, had Jane been a CT voter in 2006 and Lieberman won the primary against Lamont, she should have voted for Lieberman in Nov 2006.
Otherwise: Pissed off progressive. Naderite. “I’m taking my toys and going home!” Political infant. And, my favorite, political idiot.
Jason, have I missed any of the bullshit labels you’ve thrown at us?
Dear Romo: May I point out that Massaschusetts has gone through all KINDS of “energized conservative movements” and hasn’t left the democratic column in a coon’s age?
Your post explaining why Coakley is at risk of losing is specious, and that’s putting it mildly.
She probably WILL win, but with nothing like the traditional democratic margins, and when you consider that she’s running with the large advantage of holding what is probably the second most powerful statewide office, that of attorney general, you really can’t spin this as being some conservative groundswell. Not in Ted Kennedy’s back yard. This election is about pissed off democrats, not conservatives, and the people who are ignoring that (and ignoring Coakley’s being in bed with some of our worst and most effective enemies) as you call for us to stay the course with Obama’s slack ass, are doing progressives and the country a big disservice.
And, just as with Obama’s surging another 30,000 troops into Afghanistan, you’re climbing on board a train that’s going to be increasingly hard to get off of…if you decide to join us, down the road. :o)
What an arrogant post. Just because people disagree with you Jason, doesn’t mean that their reasons are trite. You have the point of view that the more Democrats we have the better. Some of us don’t agree with that and view the Democratic establishment as the problem. You keep feeding the establishment, we keep wanting to take the food away. I’m not doing this because it makes me feel good, quite the contrary. I’m doing this because I feel that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is childish and is actually preventing people like me from enacting the change that we think is possible. Not only are you exacerbating the problem, you’re calling me irresponsible in the process. Get over yourself and open your mind to alternatives to what has already been tried.
And BTW, the 2000 vote was hardly a model on which to criticize the third party voting method. That’s like saying, well we tried to fix healthcare in 1994 and it didn’t work so we should just give up.
well said. i agree.
Sorry, Romo, I hadn’t seen this, or I would have responded sooner:
“Your nihilistic pseudo/populism tactics is obviously the right path because it has helped so many people to date.” (Sarcasm)
To which I’ll reply:
It helped elect Barak Obama. (not sarcasm…) :o)
BTW, any conservative resurgence can be traced to one fact: That Barak Obama has done rehab on them by allowing them to assume the holy mantle of “Loyal Opposition”, instead of hanging 8 years of bloody, expensive, fuckups around their necks, as he pushed for the real changes that we so desperately need.
Early on, any vote he and the dems “lost” while, for example, insisting on a strong public option, would have increased their political capital and clout, and it would certainly mean that the democrats up for election in 2010 (and next week) would have had a much better chance of winning.
Wow, 700+ comments. Clearly I’ve hit a nerve.
I’d agree with a lot of the commenters that the tone of this post was a bit over the top. It was written quickly. But I stand by the core content, and will probably elaborate on it in the future. So we’ll get to have this discussion again, I suppose.
well then i know to be prepared with some of your previous statements on political strategy.
The nerve that got hit was your own.
You don’t get it, do you(or should I say, you refuse to get it?)
Your behaviour was inexcusable. You should be apologizing for it, and apologizing profusely.
I’m guessing you won’t, which speaks volumes on your character.
Some Lieberites will never learn.
Looks like Jason Rosenbaum is among them.
Oh well, let him throw his vote away on his oppressors.
You’ve drawn the wrong conclusion.
You haven’t hit a nerve.
The failed Democratic Party leadership has hit a nerve, and the American people are clearly not going to embrace their bullshit.
Because of the corruption of too many Democrats, every candidate with a “D” after his or her name will have to try to spin his or her way out of the pathetic failures.
I realize that you’re just doing your part to enable establishment Democrats and the Big Government/Big Business collusion that has been ruining our health care industry, our financial services industry, and other industries, but we’re not really the audience for your efforts.
Tell it to the American people, who are not at all interested in voting to maintain the status quo in DC or in hearing your weak theories about electoral politics.
I disagree.
Jason did hit a nerve…
just like when Seymour from ‘Little Shop of Horrors’ pretended to be a dentist.
Thing is, Mr. Rosenbaum mistook the readership of FDL for the same kind of masochists as Jack Nicholson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAli9a8bbys
Keep huffing that nitrous oxide, Jason!
Believe me, I agree with you. Jason knows all about it.
You can see my comments on this thread above, as well as comments at other threads.
I just can’t write everything that’s been wrong with Jason in this matter in a single comment and so focused in my comment @ 794 on one of his errors.
If he thinks he’s hit a nerve regarding Coakley and the failures of the Democratic Party, he’s wrong.
But he has hit a nerve by totally failing to spin bullshit effectively. All he’s done is offended a lot of people who come to Firedoglake because they want to inform themselves and fight the sellouts in the Democratic Party.
Every time a faux Progressive screws up the image of the brand (democrats are the peoples party, repubs are the corporate party) we get these tired arguments for why the rest of us should tow the line and pretend like that’s what we wanted anyway. It has nothing to do with responsible government and every things to do with a complete abdication of personal responsibility. Yes Jason this is all your fault. If you are going to defend the Party, any party over the People your fellow citizens, then you have made yourself responsible for your actions and the actions of that Party. Its up to you to make sure that Party does what is best for the People. Generally this is done in primaries or at least different options are presented. Its the responsibility of the Democratic Party to give the People what they want, what they need. If they fail at that, then you fail. You fail because you choose to. You associate with the Dem Party and advise others to do the same. You do it with threats, empty promises, and ill formed rationalization when the Party doesn’t live up to its name. That you do it in this manner just shows how pitiful you truly are. If your answer was reforming the party then you might have a case with the People, but its obviously not. At the very least its not good enough, because otherwise we wouldn’t be here. Its time to man up and take responsibility for yourself. I will do what I think is best for the People (my family, my friends, my neighbors, my country). Threatening me with 8 more years of Bush only works if you did something constructive during that time. Personally, I vowed never to vote for any Party only for the People. Its up to you to give me the best offer. Up to this point, you fail.
Jason@741:
“So we’ll get to have this discussion again, I suppose.”
Given Obama and the democratic “leadership”‘s propensity for bending over and grabbing their cheeks, I would bet money on it. :o)
In fact, unless Coakley can somehow pull off a surprisingly comfortable winning margin, we’ll probably be having it next week.
Which I happen to think is all to the good. :o)
So if you don’t want to see Obama in office, STFU. Don’t try to turn a third party into a second party, don’t organize a movement for anything. Stay within the party, and when the superdelegates vote against your chosen candidate, just STFU.
Jason,
You don’t understand enough about game-theory and mathematics to be making the assertions that you’re making about electoral systems; evidenced by the fact that you draw far too specific conclusions from the probabilities.
Also, voting against Coakley is not mutually exclusive from changing the Democratic Party from within. It’s simply deferment. By saying, “We will grow the Democratic Party with liberals. Neoliberals need not apply.”
When Democrats win, the first thing their pollsters advise is for them to move their policy to the right; when Democrats lose, their inside people say it’s because they didn’t campaign for the “middle” (the right). This has been going on since midterms in the early 80s and this country has done nothing but move further and further toward a corporatist right wing model. We have a large enough sample size now to see what happens when people vote for rightward-leaning Democrats (which is nearly a redundancy) and “hope to change the party from within.” I think what most voters are doing by withholding their vote or voting third party is, at base, voting their conscience. I can disagree with people over the person they vote for, but I’m not so cynical as to tell them to vote against their conscience. But even if they aren’t voting their conscience I couldn’t blame them if it was tactical. Rahm Emanuel believes in one thing: growing the Democrat Party rightward–not focusing in improving turnout, not pushing popular policy, just beating the Right wing bushes hard enough to shake out a few more votes and create as many blue dogs as humanly possible. Starving the Democrat beast is every bit as sensible and Machiavellian as what Rahm is doing.
All of this energy needs to be redirected into what Dennis Kucinich said in a recent speech this country needs most…. A viable 3rd party. The good people in both failed parties will gladly jump ship and join us in saving, restoring even, this once vibrant democratic republic. The Corporacrats and the Republicans will never change as they are owned and operated by the same zionist corporate entity. Americans have been had, at least since president Kennedy was assassinated by them, an Americans are finally waking up to this sad fact… well not all Americans… are are still those pied piper shills like Jason who pretend to care.
Jason Rosenbaum is the one who is politically infantile and an idiot I might add. People need to get a brain and realize we have one political party that sets itself up into two apposing groups to fool the American people. Once people understand that reality their approach to changing things will be much different. Both components of the one party believe in a Finance based economy (where the creation of real wealth is impossible), fake wars, the right of Israel to steal its neighbors land, etc. etc.
Thats right… we’re dealing with denial… cognitive dissonance… Some democrats (like Jason) are mentally ill and naively believe continuing to do the same thing (vote for lying backstabbing bastards) will have a different result. Starting a viable third party does this: (though a 3rd party candidate may not out-right win right away) it will force the corporacrats and republicans form coalitions if they are to get ANYTHING done. Progressives and Libertarians need to STOP being their party’s bitch , set aside their (minor) differences and unite to stick it to the the corporations er Republicrats.
So we hand 2010 (and potentially 2012) on a silver platter to the Palin-Beck wing of the Republican Party because we want to “punish” ineffective Democrats?
Isn’t that a bit like trying to cure a cancer by killing the patient?
As TarheelDem said repeatedly, waiting until after the primaries are over to grouse about how candidates aren’t progressive enough for your taste is Monday Morning Quarterbacking of the worst stripe. Once the primary is over, you’re really at a binary choice: vote for person A or vote for person B. Choosing to vote for a third party (or to not to vote at all) is an illusory choice because you aren’t really “protest voting” – you’re just voting for the eventual winner regardless of who you actually support.
So apply the construct to 2010 and what happens? If you vote in the primary and your preferred progressive Democratic candidate doesn’t win, then by using a “protest vote” against the Democratic candidate you are actually voting for the Republican because you have taken your vote out of the pool that the Democratic candidate could draw from.
Maybe there isn’t that much of a difference between the Democratic and Republican Parties, but considering that the current leading brand of Republican is anti-choice, anti-woman’s rights, homophobic, racist, and wants to impose evangelical Christianity as the guiding law of the land…handing them the keys to the kingdom is negligent at best and utterly reckless at worst.
(I’m trying very hard not to pop off again, because I really don’t like myself when I do.)
What is killing the patient is Obama governing equivalently to G.W. Bush, to the right of Clinton, for most intents and purposes when he ran on a progressive/liberal platform.
I guarantee that the Senate and House losses incurred in Nov. 2010 will be blamed on lack of fiscal conservatism, the unions, and progressives. And the thing is, it won’t simply be a MSM meme–these jokers will really believe it in their hearts.
And then Obama will start eliminating the remaining scraps of social programs….to make nice. The Democrats will ignore what the numbers are *actually* telling them: disillusioned liberals, a dog shit economy permitted by not enough deficit spending, and an angry bunch of libertarians who see the Democrats sucking Wall Street’s cock; instead the DLC gang will choose to believe that the winning strategy is, I don’t know, cutting off funding for ACORN.
Yep, the same crowd who is clamoring for an individual mandate to purchase private health insurance with no cost controls is the same crowd that was clamoring for NAFTA. Just line in 1993, the Democrats are serving that constituency first, with predictable results in the next years’ mid term elections.
And yet they still blame the progressives for squirming while on the receiving end of major dildo action instead of just taking it like we’re not supposed to under Bush.
Speaking of NAFTA, didn’t Obama promise labor on the campaign trail that he’d revisit the labor and environmental provisions for NAFTA, and then, once in office, decide to not do that?
I just realized how much time I’m wasting reading all this, and I’m starting to think that’s just what Jason wants. He doesn’t want us discussing and thinking about substance, he wants us debating his tired, old Democratic talking points. He’s getting way more attention than his ideas warrant, and it’s a real shame. I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m on to other things.
Does anyone else find it amusing that when characters like Jason are in a position of powerlessness, they still make demands?
As one of those people who won’t vote for a Democrat if they don’t get with the program, I could care less about convincing Jason to change his views. He, otoh, apparently wants me to change mine. Iow, I’ve got the power to walk away, and he has nothing. I’d think he’d try to be more persuasive, stop calling people “infantile” and “idiots” if they won’t agree with him. What does he instead? Why, act like the DLC writ small.
If people want my vote, they better ask for it pretty please hat in hand, and they’d better be able to credibly demonstrate that they’ll work with my interests in mind. Calling people whose vote they’re soliciting “stupid and immature” has got to be the most tin-eared campaigning I’ve seen in a long time.
Tin-eared campaigning is not the exclusive provenance of “Lieberites”, as this long comment thread plainly shows.
I mean, I’m sorry that you don’t like being called mean names because of your progressive stance. But by the same token, why should anyone who doesn’t agree with your worldview (which is shared by many others) be called mean names? “He started it!” is not exactly a stirring defense to your side’s own tin-eared actions.
I mean, can we at least agree on that much?
Chuckle. That one blew right past you, didn’t it?
Listen up: I have the power; you don’t.
I’m not trying to convince you to do anything. You and yours, otoh, very much want to convince me and mine to do something. You damn well better say pretty please with sugar on it, and you damn well better follow through on your promises.
I’m sorry that this offends you, and that you’d much rather demand, call names, etc. But that’s simply not my problem, tuds.
Except I didn’t call you names. I didn’t threaten you. I just pointed out a flaw in your logic.
But if your response is to berate me for trying to be even-handed, well that’s YOUR problem.
Chuckle. Except, I didn’t call you names, and I didn’t threaten you. And you haven’t been even handed.
News Flash: Just because you want to own the high ground doesn’t mean that it’s so. I do.
The sooner you get used to the fact, the sooner you can man up and do the right thing. Then we can proceed like gentlemen.
So now you are demanding that everyone agree with you? I checked all your comments and you have said that Jason should be removed, that RBG is out of line, that Jason deserves censure and should make amends (whatever that means) and apologize. Another commenter demanded that his comments should not be moderated and that he was going to tattle to Jane. This is very open site and very progressive. You want it to be run to suit you and I suggest you get your own blog and then you can scream at everyone.
I didn’t say I owned the high ground. And plenty of other people are enjoying dogpiling on Jason, and that’s not really my style anyway.
And really, read your language in this thread – do you REALLY think you’re not being belittling and angry to anyone who shows even a sliver of daylight between themselves and you?
Not really your style, eh? Didn’t you just say this:
That’s just tellin’ it like it is, no doubt. Hey, don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
Chuckle. No, I’m not angry, and yes, I am being demeaning to people like you who insist the facts are otherwise, who refuse to acknowledge their mistakes, etc.
And all I’ve pointed out in my last series of posts is that you and yours want my vote, yet you seem curiously reluctant to work for it.
You’d much rather demand it, and call me names if I don’t comply.
So let’s start with the basics: Do you acknowledge that you don’t want me to withhold my vote from any eligible Democratic candidates come this November?
Yes or no?
See, now you’re changing the terms of the debate. You ignored the part where I reiterated that if you want progressive candidates on the ballot, GET THEM ON THE BALLOT. It’s not that hard. Otherwise, waiting until AFTER the primary is over to say that you’ll withhold your vote because no candidate is sufficiently progressive is CONCEDING the ground to the people who are even more regressive.
I don’t like Senator Harry Reid, but absent a more progressive candidate (because the filing deadline has passed without any attempt in Nevada to draft one) I will vote for him because Sue Lowden, Danny Tarkanian and Sharon Angle are more destructive to progressive interests than Reid at his worst.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
Now would you answer my question: do you concede that you want me to vote for any eligible Democrat come November? Yes or no?
If there are no progressive candidates on the ballot, and the choice is to vote for a conservaDem or a teabagger Republican, then yes. Because the teabagger will do his damndest to quickly and completely dismantle anything that is even remotely progressive. And you put enough of them in the Congress (which is entirely possible), they can carry that out even if the Democratic Party controls the White House.
Now answer mine – how is waiting until after the filing deadline to put candidates on the ballot to complain about the lack of progressives to choose from a sound electoral strategy?
Ah, progress. Of a sorts. Finally.
So do you then concede that you want something from me? Yes or no?
Ah, ah ah. Answer my question first.
Sorry, no. We’re going to nail down good and hard the fact that you do want something from me first. And you’re going to publicly acknowledge it.
Um, how about no?
I answered your question. You want to play fair and engage in constructive argument, answer mine. Otherwise this is not a debate but a diatribe.
I guess that makes me a “loser” to you.
Chuckle. Since the question I’ve been asking all along is whether or not you want something from me, and since you refuse to answer unless I break it up into tiny bite-sized questions, no, you haven’t answered my question. You have at best answered a part of it.
But you don’t want to acknowledge that you want something from me, do you? And – mark this – I have no problem with thinking of you as a lesser specimen because of these very obvious antics.
If you were at all honest, you would have admitted from the get-go with no strings attached that you wanted something from me, and we could have proceeded from there. But that’s not how you roll, is it? I think that’s been established for some time now. No, you don’t want to publicly, explicitly concede that you want something from me and mine because in your eyes that would be a “tactical mistake”. Even though everyone knows very well that you do want something.
Come back when want to act like a grownup.
That’s rich coming from someone who thinks that behaving like a second-grader (see your “I win” post upthread) and then demanding others to grow up is somehow NOT hypocritical.
The question I asked was in my first post, which YOU IGNORED completely to go off on your rant. But hey, whatever. I see how you roll.
And frankly, I really couldn’t care about how you see me.
Democrats have been running away from us for years. First, they ran away from the word “liberal” when Reagan transformed the word to mean “n*gg*r-lover” (then the democrats ran fast). Next democrats surrendered their values to corporate America (see Clinton presidency). For the record, I hate conservatives, would never vote for one, and am a proud liberal.
As an African-American, I can tell you based upon first-hand experience that being taken for granted and peed-on is not a good feeling. It’s just that now some of my liberal brothers and sisters are being treated like African-Americans, and I know that it’s not something that is easily accepted.
The reality of the situation is that our legislators, jurors, and chief executives are corrupted to the core by corporate America. They are not going to give up the meager payoffs, bribes and gifts bestowed upon them in exchange for servicing the real needs of the citizens. What the Congressional Black Caucus has become in search for corporate bribes is a shame.
Mike Malloy says that voting has become useless. Within the framework of the current two-party system, I wholeheartedly agree. We liberals have become the 2:00 a.m. booty-call for the democrats.
What we have to do is join the Green Party, and go out and promote our values on all levels – politically, economically and socially. Organize nationally and be active on all levels, especially economically and socially, on a local basis, and work on a state and national level (strength in numbers as in all 50 states).
And first and foremost, leave the democratic party.
The best example is the 1936 election, when the American Labor Party’s platform was adopted by Roosevelt, and Roosevelt ran as a democrat AND a ALP presidential candidate. If the democrats don’t want to adopt our platform, we don’t vote for them. If they do adopt, we give them our vote. If they screw us, then they pay a heavy price in the next elections. The primary goal should be to get public-funded elections some day to remove the corruption.
The other point, I don’t mind sneering, is that you haven’t said one word in chastisement towards this Jason character.
And until you start saying in no uncertain terms that he was a complete and total prat, and that he should man up and apologize for his asinine remarks, why, I don’t have the slightest compunction in playing that way. Especially since you give every indication that you richly deserve it.
If you really want to play nice, I think you had better roll over and show your belly. I really do.
Of course, that’s not going to happen, is it? To you, this is all just words, and you’re just playing a game.
The past tense of “shit” is “shat.” Easy mistake. And yes, I am being anal retentive about using proper grammar. Anyway, you’re right: Rahmbo will definitely be going apeshit once one of his chosen candidates gets his or her ass handed to him or her on a platter in what should have been a shoe-in election (at this point, I’m inclined to think Emanuel is perfectly content with either Coakley or Brown).
Not sure that Rahm will be upset either way. He picked some real losers the last election and almost all of them lost and the others went Blue Dog. As long as HE has the power he’s happy.
One thing we need to realize is the media (for which Jason is a blatant shill) is an arm a branch a tool of the one party two headed junta which is destroying this country. They will spin the empending losses’ lots of different way and parade pied pipers spouting mindless unsupportable BS every which way. It will of course be BULL SHITE. We need to anticipate it and not let it deter us in the least. This is class warfare and a fight for the very future of this once vital democratic republic.
The Democrats and organized labor are the 900# gorillas on the liberal/progressive side. They have the near monopoly on resources and with that power must come responsibility if progressive values are to mean anything.
This blaming of the least powerful for the failings of the most powerful leads to splintering of coalitions. The more powerful toss the less powerful some bones to keep them quiet, at least that happens on the right. On the left, we’re treated like pariahs even though our ideas win elections and are popular.
Democrats insist that the country is mostly conservative, 40% base + swing instead of insisting that the country is mostly liberal, 40% base + swing. So long as our own dominant “advocates” define us in terms favorable to our mutual opponents, we will continue to see progressive ideas marginalized. After so many decades, this is intentional behavior, lucy yanking the football at the last minute.
No mas.
Yes, please stop the personal attacks, argue the ideas.
Framing stentorian patronizing admonishments to “Naderites” to stay on reservation is not a personal attack, right?
99.9% of the time, people who use the term “Naderite” are Lieberites.
To all the whiners moaning about “How could you not vote for Gore/Lieberman?!?!…”
Let’s say Gore had become President in 2001, and re-elected in 2004.
By your logic you’d have yelled at us to vote for Lieberman for President in 2008.
Right?
Unless 9/11 in that alternate reality included the assassination of Gore…
in which case President Lieberman would have been in charge of the “War on Terror.”
Personally, I don’t know which is worse: the idea of President Bush, President Cheney, President McCain, President Palin or President Lieberman.
The wagons r circled; indians r all around us; from novaya zemya to maoristan, stans, pethagonia, china.
So, don’t be dumb! Don’t change the system in mid-war.Let’s first pacify planet or get rid of the ‘indians’.
Then we can afford healthcare, higher education for people who want it, right to be formed [70% now being deformed]and informed. Until that time, we can’t tell u everything.
It wld only help the ‘indians’! It’s ok to talk ab palin. U can beat bush and around bushes.
U can talk ab bailouts as long as u don’t touch the system.tnx, kids
Funny thing, that: you never admitted that Jason was way out of line with his tone. You never said that he should apologize for that tone. And you’re not going to do those things, are you?
Which in my book makes you nothing more than a partisan shill.
And you know what? If we can’t come to any sort of agreement, I win.
Deal with it.
Jason can think anything he likes – I don’t care. And what is this WIN crap? If I don’t agree with your tirades, I lose? I don’t think so. I think you are rude, aggressive and lacking in any sort of manners. It’s YOUR attitude that is terrible. This is not your blog – get over it. I have never seen your name before and you storm in and demand that things go your way. Tough.
You’re damn right I win: at the end of the day, if you can’t convince me otherwise, I’m going to withhold my vote as I see fit.
It’s not, “Gee, I couldn’t convince Twain and his ilk otherwise, so I guess I do have to vote for all of the eligible Democratic candidates.”
Iow, I win. You want me to do something else? You damn well better be sweet, and you damn well better say please, with sugar on it.
But you don’t want to be persuasive, do you? You want to make demands. You lose.
[1]What’s funny here is that I’m doing exactly the same thing as Jason here, and there you do care. Can we say “hypocrisy”? Can we say, “blatant partisan spear carrier”. Sure. I knew you could.
You are such a joke. You aren’t interested in anyone’s opinion but your own. For your information, just to be sure, if I lived in Ma I would not be voting for Martha. And unless there are some amazing changes between now and 2012, I will be writing in Howard Dean. It’s not your political stance I object to,
it’s your demanding “this” and demanding “that.” You are just rude.
For someone who wants something from me, you’ve got a very peculiar way of going about it.
I don’t want anything from you. Do whatever you like. Believe me, I am completely indifferent about you, your opinions, or your choices.
You’re lying, of course. You want me and mine to vote for your preferred candidates.
If you’re not lying, why are you even commenting here in the first place?
Geez, are you nuts? And don’t call me a liar.
I have always been a Democrat because I used to believe in the values of the party.
I don’t get what you mean when you ask “if you’re not lying, why are you even commenting here in the first place.” Are you saying that people only come here to lie?
My guess is that you are a troll and value nothing.
maybe a pause to go read glenn’s post, Be Like Me. Or Else., is in order (for me too).
When Jason plays like a Hackasauraus, then he should be treated like a reptile who thinks like a Republican, four legs good, two legs bad.
Politics is more complicated than the party hack can ever conceive, and to limit one’s mind to such a narrow frame kills one’s creativity, the ultimate in social control is the ability to keep people from imagining, and the party hack as instrument of social control is a foot soldier in the war against expanded possibilities.
Ah, a new twist on the condescending cliché “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”. Jason should be required to disclose his HCAN employment on top of each of his posts.
So long as we follow the advice of this diary, we deserve to be routinely screwed over by “our” party. This false dichotomy must end. Voting for a third party is as patriotic as apple pie.
Don’t give your vote away to people who don’t deserve it.
Rosenbaum says:
” But not voting or voting for a third party because you’re not getting what you want is politically infantile. ”
I couldn’t disagree more. There is a world of difference between not voting and voting for the alternative of the current ONE PARTY system. For example, Cynthia McKinney was my choice for President. I was assuredly not risking the state of Oregon in voting for her over Obama, but that is hardly the point: she was the better candidate. The Democrats have been complicit in every atrocity including and following the stolen 200o election.
Of which Rosenbaum says:
” The people who voted for Nader in 2000 sent the country backwards and didn’t help reform the Democratic party”
Gore was the VP of the Nation, and presided over the Senate. Not a single Senator stood up for an investigation into “the election.” Likewise, after Sept. 11, 2001, Democrats rolled over civil liberties along with the Bush regime, and let him reap political gain over allowing a massive attack on our sovereign soil.
It is hardly the duty of progressives, independants, and Green Party members to reform the Democratic Party!
In short, if the Democratic candidate can’t win Teddy’s seat, it is not to be blamed or credited on “Naderites,” the Democrats’ perennial boogeyman.
They can blame their basic operating premise of colluding with Republicans, acting the foil, aligning with Corporate Rule, and NOT protecting the environment, civil rights, human rights, or the Constitution in its most central tenets.
Writers like Scott Rosenbaum need to be reminded that populism of a region like Massachusetts, overwhelmingly liberal, demands a LIBERAL candidate, regardless of who fields that candidate.
Wake up and smell the victory of defeat.
Hey bloggod don’t you post at the washington post ?
hi stranger! thanks for the invite to the party.
If a person campaigns as a progressive, but then governs as a conservative, isn’t that person A CONSERVATIVE?
And I think it’s funny that a person who claims to uphold democracy can just go back to the tired old rhetoric of blaming people further to the left who ‘stole votes’. Not only does this characterize the American voters as stupid, gullible, and unable to be responsible for their own votes, but it undermines the democratic ideal in its basest imagining. The basic tenets of democracy are that voters are free to vote for the candidate of their choosing.
I wholeheartedly disagree with Mr. Rosenbaum’s assertions that voting for Conservadems or Moderates or DLCers advances the interests of progressivism OR liberalism when it only serves to entrench and legitimize a system that ignores progressive, liberal values as a matter of strategy. Republicans use this tactic to highlight how ‘extreme’ the ‘radical left’ is, and granted, there are radical leftists, but most of OUR group would be planted between said radical left and the real moderate center. The unfortunate thing is that Democrats and DLCers use this strategy, too. They highlight how much more ‘sensible’ they are by contrasting themselves against those that are ‘left’ from where they are.
Empowering these people with a vote does one thing and one thing only. It shows that you support them AND their actions. If you cave because you’re afraid of the Republican spectre, then you’re conceding any and all actions they choose, such as the current health care reform effort.
If progressives in the Congress expect to ever leverage power, they’ll have to stand up like Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman did. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, after all. And if we want a more progressive legislature, we’re going to have to understand that corporatists, DLCers, and moderates-in-name do not accomplish that goal. We should always vote for progressives who will govern as progressives when we can. But if there are none available, either by absence of candidate or by the machinations of a corrupt system, it does not advance progressive interests to vote for those whose stated political position has nothing to do with those interests.
ATTENTION FOLKS: Jason Rossenbaum’s “about me” page helpfully points out he works for “Health Care for America Now.” If you go look on the net you’ll see that “”Health Care for America Now” is a group promoting Obama’s sell-out-to-the-insurance-industry health care plan.
That’s right, this diarist, who is telling you to vote Democratic party because if you don’t you’re basically a Republican-fluffer, is in the pocket of the sell outs in the Democratic party. This diarist appears to be EXACTLY THE SORT OF PERSON we may consider to be an anti-progressive, and pro-establishment Democrat-in-name-only.
If you follow this diarists sell-out advice, you are a sell out yourself.
Why am I not surprised? An individual compromised by money is supporting a majority party compromised by money.
Pretty sad, Mr. Rosenbaum.
I don’t know whether they pay him, but he says he works for them. I agree he’s a sell out.
For Jason Rosenbaum to call himself a progressive while he works to support the Obama/Reid health care bill is all the evidence I need to conclude he is either a fool or a knave.
It’s entirely possible he writes opinion pieces and fights on their behalf as a matter of conscience or passion for their cause, but the more likely conclusion is that he is paid to provide rhetoric and footwork for them.
Either way, paid or not, his argument is skewed, defeatist, and purely wrong in the face of reality.
If you were to ask me how to advise and strategize for the Democrats, I’d say ‘you have a content problem, not a message problem.’ The country is far more liberal than analysts and polls say they are, even if they don’t realize it themselves. They may respond to a poll saying that they personally are conservative, but on specific issues and policies they’re quite liberal, and that’s the important part for Democrats.
Democrats always legislate to the right because they think that’s where the country is, but this is based on a false assumption. Single payer universal health care would be a far simpler sell than the current ‘health care reform’ we’re being pitched, and it would have incredible popular support than what we have now. It’s easier to explain the benefits of to a voter, and it’s easier to highlight how it’s good for both the individual and the nation. The groundswell of popular support for single payer could be translated into large long-term majorities for the Democrats, but they’re not willing to do this because they’d have to actively frustrate if not cut off the cash-flow blood tendril that corporate/special interests have jabbed into their side. It’s THIS reason that their policy is not more leftist, and this choice to prioritize that corporate cash flow is what is losing them voters and relegating them again to minority status.
In short, they’re going to lose because they’re not more liberal/progressive in action, and that’s ACTUALLY what the nation wants.
Yes, Jason does seem to think that calling you stupid will intimidate you into voting for more DLC nonsense.
What next? “They’ll appoint conservative judges!”
How about: “Where else are you going to go?”
I challenge someone to name the policy change in 2009 away from President Monkey-In-A-Man-Suit’s major policies from 2001-2008?
Thank you!
This was the point I tried to make last night in my comment @ 358 and in other places over the last couple of days.
The question remains:
How did this get onto the front page of Firedoglake?
Jane,
There was a commenter on a different thread yesterday morning who transferred his anger at Jason onto you, blaming you for his activities here, calling him Rahm to your Obama.
I strongly defended you, but it becomes harder to do that when things like this post are allowed to appear on the front page of Firedoglake.
The spotlighting “diary voting” system can be gamed by groups of shills.
I’m pretty sure it’s a perk of being a moderator. On a lot of soapblox blogs, for example, moderators on up get their entries front-paged automatically. Regular users don’t have that luxury, obviously, but many blog sites are set up thus. If [Edited by Moderator] were merely a plebeian, like the rest of us, his condescending little diatribe wouldn’t have even gotten a dozen comments, yet alone the 825-and-counting he’s received so far.
[Mod Note: Your argument loses strength when accompanied by insults]
Unfortunately Jane has decided to throw her weight behind Jason’s perspective . Both in her words and in putting jason’s post up again a second time on FDL’s front page.
Form yesterday…
Freeman
Save the democrats from themselves and help defeat Coakley in Mass .The party needs a wake up call before november !
Reply
Jane Hamsher January 16th, 2010 at 10:54 am 4In response to freeman @ 3 (show text)
There are plenty of ways to wake the party up that don’t require helping to defeat Democrats. We hope this is one of them
Actually, I agree with Jane. I don’t think it’s a good idea to help defeat Democrats, either.
My problem with Jason’s argument is that he’s belittling people who refuse to support Democrats, who refuse to help candidates win because they have a “D” after their names.
I refuse to help Coakley win, for example. I reject DSCC requests that I send money to help her win so that Obama can pass his bullshit agenda.
But I agree with Jane’s view that we don’t have to actively help Democrats lose.
In the Democrat propaganda regime it is worse to say that the Democrats can lose or should lose than it is to help them lose.
Voting for a Democrat is like swallowing a placebo one thinks is an antibiotic. It may make you feel better for a few minutes, then it is amputation time hours later.
Better to take the bitter pill of inevitable revolution now, and withdraw support for a corrupt system altogether.
If Coakley loses, The Health Insurer Corporate Welfare Act of 2010 goes down and the American people win.
May I suggest a little hard ball ?
A Coakley defeat would be a shot across the bow of the establishment .
It would eliminate the 60 vote super majority
It would kill the corporations bogus reform as it is now or force the democrats to do what they wouldn’t do to pass what the public wanted , the public option, by using only 51 votes in the senate.
It would send a wake up call to the party’s leadership and all those seeking re election that unless they move left their screwed in November .
The symbolic value of this being Kennedy’s vacated seat , the man who this reform is to be named after is priceless.Perhaps the symbolic value of that seat is more important than the seat itself ?
The downside ? the loss of a senate seat that will only be occupied for two years by a non progressive candidate
Hey when providence offers you a weapon to send a message the powerful you would be foolish to toss it away . Coakley isn’t looking too good anyway and in a state which democrats took for granted 48 hours ago .
Push progressives in the primaries and vote for progressive candidates in the elections when they exist but the fact that this takes away from those ignoring us what we worked so hard to provide for them ,a super majority in congress ,would be a very BIG wake up call that we are a force to be reckoned with and that we expect results …. OR ELSE !
This is a once in a lifetime chance to tell the establishment we aren’t pleased and may well HELP the democrats up for re election in November , in the house and in the senate like feingold and Murray .whose seats are going to be occupied for 6 years not 2 .
It’s your choice the loss of a 2 year stint by a not very progressive candidate in the Senate or a disaster for the democrats , as polls and the poor showing in Mass. indicate or a whole scale bloodbath in the next election cycle.
I have posted the above a half dozen times on 3 blogs
Sounds like a good plan…
The response from establishment Democrats if Coakley loses (or even if she wins by a narrow margin) will be: cut the deficit and bomb Yemen. It won’t be: shit, maybe we should deliver on, I don’t know, ONE of our campaign promises.
Jason, you should really take care to disclose your business relationship with HCAN whenever you make a post like this.
The problem with the “do-not-be-a-Naderite” argument is that we have heard it so often before. It always precedes the “hold-your-nose-and-vote-for-us-because-it-could-be-worse” argument. As a result, every Democratic candidate has been worse than the last, either more unelectable, more corrupt, or both. You called for “compromise” and “moderation”. You swore that they were the price of victory. We gave in. And what did we get? Reagan. Bush. Clinton. More Bush. Obama. And, of course, war, arbitrary imprisonment, domestic spying, a falling standard of living, and economic disaster.
The “do-not-be-a-Naderite” argument is a blackmail threat with nothig behind it. You are telling me that I have to let Democratic machine politicians do what they want, because they would rather throw an election to guys worse than they are if the alternative is to concede any of their sleazy backroom deals. But, at this point, how much worse IS the alternative? It’s not as pretty, I grant you. It’s not as well-mannered. But its policies are no different from those we have now.
So my answer is this: don’t be a Blue Dog. Dump Lieberman, Emmanuel, Nelson, Reid, and, apparently, Obama himself. Give us a true Liberal alternative to aristocratic conservatism. Otherwise, you won’t have a Democratic Party, the Republicans will carry the day with 25% of the electorate, and there won’t be any lobbying slots for the Democratic Party hacks. That’s not an empty threat. We in the rank and file can make it happen.
It’s your choice. Because this time, I’m not budging.
good points. Nobody is seriously arguing that the Democrats are about to nominate and run a slate of real Liberals or Progressives, and no one is saying the Republicans will stop nominate scary, frightening, eeevil hobgoblins and bogeymen.
therefore, the “hold-your-nose-and-vote-for-us-because-it-could-be-worse” argument can be used forever, right?
wrong. it’s time is up. It is a proud feeling to have stood for your principles – a feeling well worth a little nagging and guilt tripping from the diminishing ranks of the fervent (D) apologists, whether on salary or otherwise.
Yeah:
“To the pissed-pants-panicky Party apparatchniks: Don’t be Blue Dogs”
Rahmobama spewing lies on C-SPAN right now… What a pathetic POS he is. Now way In hell will I ever vote for him or anyone he endorses again. Looks you in the eye a calmly callously lies his heart out.
“Backed by some of the most powerful members of the Senate, a little-noticed provision in the healthcare overhaul bill would require insurers to consider covering Christian Science prayer treatments as medical expenses.
The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) with the support of Democratic Sens. John F. Kerry and the late Edward M. Kennedy, both of Massachusetts, home to the headquarters of the Church of Christ, Scientist.
The measure would put Christian Science prayer treatments — which substitute for or supplement medical treatments — on the same footing as clinical medicine. While not mentioning the church by name, it would prohibit discrimination against “religious and spiritual healthcare.”
The Internal Revenue Service allows the cost of the prayer sessions to be counted among itemized medical expenses for income tax purposes — one of the only religious treatments explicitly identified as deductible by the IRS. Some federal medical insurance programs, including those for military families, also reimburse for prayer treatment.”
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/nov/03/nation/na-health-religion3
_________
Just in case some thought Massachusetts was the bedrock of liberal proclivities—-paid prayer sessions, endorsed by Kerry, Kennedy, and Hatch.
When they make sausage there, it is expected that the fingerprints are part of the flavor. UM, delicious… AND spiritually uplifting.
response to jason rosenbaum
It appears this site is in some ones pocket just like the Democrats are, since this site edits and deletes responses that explain to much of the truth. Perhaps this response will be deleted as well.
Jason Rosenbaum is politically infantile. We have one political party that sets itself up into two apposing groups to fool the American people. When the American people come to this realization, they will be taking a different approach to bringing about change. Both groups making up the one political party believe in a Finance economy (true wealth can not be created in a Finance economy), fake wars, the right of Israel to steal its neighbors land, etc., etc.