… and build a viable independent alternative. Over the past few months, I’ve put out various comments stressing the critical need for organization, that the growing cries for action post Egypt/Wisconsin (we must take to the streets, general strike!, vote them out) remain at a level of abstraction, or calls to individuals, calls for morality, calls for courage.
But the masses are not rising up. The Obama/Boehner onslaught continues. The only ones to pretend the left is more than a disorganized rabble are those hardcore Dems who pump this up to make it seem that THEIR fantasy of taking over the Democratic Party is the only game in town. The strongest resistance to Obama/Boehner has been led by the unions in Wisconsin and neighboring states, and that is — at least for the time being — contained in the shelter of the Democratic Party. Repeal, recall, roll the clock back to a couple years ago. But the obvious fact that this resistance comes from organized forces seems to have had little impact on people’s need to address organizational issues.
I could say that the lack of response to my comments shows a lack of understanding on the part of the masses. But while that may be comforting late at night, it might be better to develop the idea further and render it at least a little bit less abstract.
The Trap
Democrats and independents, and Democrats getting religion and newly proclaiming their independence, continue to act out an oft-repeated ritual. Democratic loyalists point out that they can influence policy from within and, more importantly, that’s where the working class can be reached, for better or worse. Independents point out the utterly craven sellout by the Democratic Party where corporate America holds the high ground and has abandoned any pretext of progressivism.
Both are correct. Both perform their rituals of beating their heads against a brick wall until their heads bleed, Dems begging for crumbs, independents settling for their sub-1% of the national presidential vote.
In the past, I have argued for a progressive* Democratic/progressive independent alliance. Still a good idea — Dump Obama has been its tactical embodiment. But Dump Obama is dependent on a challenger entering the Democratic primaries. So what we need is a plan that goes beyond 2012, and is not dependent on the whims of even most progressive Democratic politicians. So we need a better look at what we are up against.
The Target
When people talk about the Democratic Party, pro and con, it tends to be very ideologically defined, policy positions, legislative accomplishments. Or non-accomplishments. This position is a sellout, this is an abomination, this is the best deal possible. Whatever. All very important, of course. But this form of what comes down to quasi-moral analysis leads to the fiery rhetoric about how the two parties are identical. Or different. Good rhetoric but goes nowhere tactically.
So let’s go back to, say, 1970. The Republicans operated directly through their money. Their organizational base was corporate America, various chambers of commerce, and the media. They could outright buy campaigns.
The Democrats, on the other hand, campaigned through a working class base, the unions and the big city machines, organized down to the precinct level. But the power of the unions was in the early stages of a big fadeout, while the new constituency organizations born of the ferment of the 60’s — women, civil rights, militant Blacks, anti-war, gay, etc. — were in the process of taking over the party. Though one might question who was taking over who. This culminated in the 1972 McGovern nomination.
There have been changes since. The Dems have come to resemble the Republicans more and more, giving fewer and fewer crumbs to their base AND their base organizations, relying more on internet groups such as Kos and MoveOn. The Republicans have, in the meantime, developed a more organized mass base, first through the evangelicals, more recently through the tea party movement. But the basic pattern still holds, and the Democratic base organizations are still its greatest point of vulnerability.
As for the independents, they remain as baseless as ever. 40% of the American electorate is not registered Dem or Republican. While all independents are not progressives, the millions of independents who are progressive are not organizationally represented. No 3rd party is speaking to how this will change, except for putting out the same old battle cries that they cannot even make heard.
So what?
Fair question. “So what” is that defining the Democratic Party as a functioning organization — rather than ideologically, or by the official party apparatus, or some org chart — focusing on the organized force they can bring to bear on a sustained basis, an activity-based definition, highlights our best point of attack. The base organizations. This is where they get a good chunk of their money, through these they present a facade of progressivism, through these they drum up the volunteers for their precinct operations.
At the same time, the base of these base organizations can provide an organized foundation for the independent movement.
One of my main arguments for the viability of a Dump Obama movement is the huge chasm between Obama (and the rest of the Democratic leadership), and the Democratic base. But that mainly plays out on election day. But that chasm also exists WITHIN these base organizations? Because there the fight can become quite concrete every day of the week and twice on Sundays. There the fight can play out. But will it? And if so, how?
In any fight, the leadership of such groups have some serious advantages. They get paid (which is one reason the label “sellout” applies quite literally). They have staff and offices, they control the internal communications, they control the press contacts, they are blessed with the legitimacy of the party. They are simply better organized than an angry rank-and-file. They will fight for their positions to the bitter end.
The ranks are less organized, tend to have less staying power. An all-too-common dynamic in rank-and-file rebellions is that the rebellious leadership is cruelly abused and quits in disgust mid-fight, leaving the survivors exposed and holding the bag. Nothing gets created and the entrenched leadership is even more entrenched.
But suppose …
Suppose the leaders of a given insurgency weren’t operating in a vacuum, saw the fight extending beyond the boundaries of their particular local or organization. Suppose similar fights were going on within several organizations, such as the NAACP, NOW, HRC, etc., and the insurgent leaders had an insurgent network. That would transform the terms of the struggle.
As it now stands, the terms of such a fight would be whether the ranks could take over their organization, or could win a set of policy changes. By those terms, if you can’t win, why bother. This is consistent with the numbers-obsessed, majoritarian-fetishizing, winner-take-all American way. Here it’s worth another look at the Republican model. The very foundation of their party is minority-based, yet they can use their compact minority to force policy and even win elections by out-organizing the more numerous Democrats. The tea party has raised this to a high art so, while liberals snicker at the tea party polling results, the tea partiers are handing the liberals their heads.
The key concept is critical mass. What numbers short, far short, of a majority are required to carry out any given action? Fewer than most people think. Look at what’s happening at the Republican Town Hall meetings lately, with protesters against the Ryan Medicare butchery virtually shutting them down. The numbers involved are miniscule compared to their impact.
I have noted the strengths of the leadership of these organizations. They also have serious weaknesses. Since one of their key roles is to maintain the Democratic Party’s facade of progressivism, they have to worry about that image being exposed to the light of day. And since another key role is fundraising, not just to directly fund the Democrats, but to fund their own campaign operations on behalf of the Democrats, they are quite vulnerable to attacks calling on people to withhold funding. But won’t that damage the good deeds they perform? some might ask. Like the good deeds NARAL and NOW did for women in supporting the Stupak-ridden healthcare bill? Gimme a break!
Anyway, if various insurgencies could link up, they would constitute a viable force.
Still Democrats?
I’m getting to that. Yes, I have said these base organizations not only SUPPORT the Democratic Party, but are PART of the Democratic Party. And these insurgents would be working under DP auspices. So how would they operate? Under what basis of unity? Fact is, the mere fact of opposition doesn’t create more than a short-term thrill. The demands are out there. U.S. out of Afghanistan and the Middle East. Protect and strengthen the social safety net. WPA-style jobs programs. Tax the rich. Defend abortion rights. Demand gay marriage. Reasonable enough, would have once been considered moderate. In fact, there are lots of good resolutions floating around. But where’s the tactical sting?
The Democratic Party is not an aggregation of individuals
Yet we treat them as such. Thus in the healthcare fight, individual Dems supported the public option and opposed Stupak, and that was good enough. No, it wasn’t good enough. The option died and Stupak carried. What was needed was for the Democratic Party as a party to strip the likes of Conrad and Baucus and Lieberman and Stupak of their congressional positions, chairmanships, seniority, all of it, make it toxic for anyone to work for or contribute to their campaigns. (The Republicans have a much better idea of how to operate like this.) Thus it wasn’t good enough for Kucinich and Sanders to vote for some good amendments. They needed to demand that these blue dogs be driven from the party. That must be our standard. Thus the stance of insurgents within base organizations wouldn’t just be to support Dems who supported the public option, for instance, but only those Democrats who called for the party to wage war on the traitors in their midst, the Stupaks and the Conrads, etc.
Another losing fight? Yeah. In traditional terms, perhaps. But if victory were measured in terms of determining the terms of political dialogue, it would be a huge step forward. With a goal of political independence, these fights would reinforce each other to create something new.
Please note that this stands the traditional radical approach on its head. Rather than issuing extreme demands, but having nothing to back them up with, it entails issuing relatively moderate demands, but treating them like DEMANDS! Much harder to dismiss.
3rd party revisited
As mentioned, our 3rd parties have remained pitifully weak for generations, arguably since they lost their roots in the trade union movement back when the trade union movement was a fighting movement. Unlike the Republicans, they aren’t rich. Unlike the Democrats, they lack mass-base organizations. Their message is buried and unheeded. That they aren’t even trying to make a splash for the 2012 presidential elections says it all — they’re not even trying.
However, if the independent political movement could connect with insurgents who had roots in existing base organizations, that could foreshadow an independent party that had muscle. And teeth.
If you’re so smart …
… why ain’t you rich? Yes, this runs up against my own incessant complaint about how to get from here — an alienated, atomized blogosphere — to there. More specifically, what organizational vehicle(s) can advance the cause. So here are a few scenarios to consider:
(1) A group of progressives could come together around this plan or something like it, begin working in constituency organizations, forming a cross-constituency group from the start.
(2) One of the 3rd parties could adopt this plan, building their electoral base at the same time.
(3) Insurgents within one constituency organization could adopt such a plan, beginning in place and extending outward from there.
This all may raise more questions than it answers. There is no clear path to any of the 3 options above. But even as individuals with all the accompanying limitations, we could still organize within whatever milieu we find ourselves while looking for others of similar ilk. How many of us are members of groups like MoveOn, NOW, PDA (I’m AARP) even now? Can we start trying to work this out?
As Archimedes said, “give me a place to stand and I can move the world!”
—————————-
*I admittedly throw the term progressive around a bit loosely. By progressive I mean first those on the left of the mainstream political spectrum, pro-jobs programs, anti-war, pro-abortion and social safety net. AND I include all to the left of that (socialists, radicals, revolutionaries, syndicalists, etc.), provided they are willing to work with more moderate elements rather than treat them as the enemy.




59 Comments

Great post Hoss! Thanks!
Though one nit, the Stupak amendment did not carry. He caved for a Exec Order that did not do what the amendment did but acted like it might.
You’re most welcome! Many would have us on opposite ends of the spectrum, but I think we both have an appreciation of fighting in the trenches.
Quite correct, per the nit.
Recc’d.
Agree with about everything in “But Suppose…” on down. Particularly your asterisked bit.
“Push Overton Left” is a motto to which I totally subscribe. What I see happening a lot is that when I put up a link and a diary like this, people think I’m defending the status quo, which I am not, in any way shape or form.
It’s so odd to me. Colorado is a caucus state which means there’s no secret vote in any primary. One physically moves, amongst a group of people, to “get behind” a candidate, and I have broken the rules so many times, by having a whistle and being rude and such.
Last year I was backing the primary challenger against Bennet in my weed T-shirt, and I get accused of being a right winger and status quo supporter. It mystifies me.
I’m just banging my drum doing my thing, and to those who want push it leftier, I say “do it.”
Moralizing creates enemies among those who should not be enemies. Organization creates allies.
No kidding. Prophets anoint themselves. Activists achieve goals.
um, just for solidarity’s sake, could the “willing to work with” and “rather than treat them as the enemy” bit go both ways?
thanks!
p.s. what’s the pro jobs plan? and if there isn’t one, can i help?
God save me Selise, my freakin head is about to explode.
It certainly should. I phrased it as I did because I wanted an inclusive definition. Progressives who refuse to work with anyone to their left are assholes, but they remain progressives.
I don’t have a jobs program, unfortunately. But I continue to insist that a WPA-style jobs program should be at the top of any list of demands. When I talk about base organizations, there is a shocking lack of base organizations of the unemployed. I consider their creation essential, and calling for a WPA-style jobs program is I think essential to their creation.
yikes!
i’m sorry, what’d i do?
want some advil? i try to keep a stock on hand.
The Logic of Collective Action ???
Understanding Modern Money: The Key to Full Employment and Price Stability !!!
“But if victory were measured in TERMS of determining the TERMS of political dialogue….”
Unfortunately…..for all of us…..particularly you….., semantics doesn’t have much at all to do with “it”.
This portion of American history, is not going to end well. Regardless of which becomes the prevalent ideology. In fact, it is going to end badly. Very badly.
“give me a place to stand…..”
I’m really sorry pard, but where you’re standin’ right now, well, that’s as good as it gets. In fact, its gettin’ worse by the minute.
What was it, in fact, that you actually wanted to do? I’m sorry, I missed it. I’m a slow learner. You’ve got the patois down, but what was it you wanted to do?
It is time to stand up. Voting ain’t gonna git it.
The system has been corrupted by money. Completely, to its very core. And the greed that welcomed the original corruption, is salivating now for more and more and more money.
Let’s stand up together Brother.
Sorry,
What I meant to say was that I need need an emergency re-primer on inclusiveness.
lol!
the advil helps with that too. :)
p.s. if information is power, i wanna share.
Thanks Selise,
Not often that I am forced to learn a new word. Syndicalist. Very cool.
And Thank you Bill for killing the reply.
And thank you jeffroby for not engaging, I’m sure you’re right, no good could possibly come from a lefty like me and a centrist like you trying to find common ground.
my experience from the few times i’ve worked with anarchists is that they’ve been the nicest, most inclusive, most accepting people.
here’s my thinking on common ground: full employment.
… personally i’m not so jazzed about electoral politics. but the only one hope i do have is that citizen dems will start taking a hard look at the economics and how we’ve been lied to about that. by dems. for decades.
Full employment at this point would require an actual miracle. We are moving further from that goal as we speak. Yet more “Free Trade Agreements are about to be put in place to further subjegate the American middle class.
Selise,
No one has ever labeled me an anarchist before. But if POTUS Obama is a Democrat, then why not? Yeah I guess that given our present circumstances, that label is probably accurate. Wow, God help us.
Oooh, am I allowed to call on God as an anarchist?
You are. You’re just not allowed to expect Her to return your calls.
Personally, I restrict myself to brief poetic voice mails and cryptic blog posts, on the assumption that anything more might be construed as stalkerish.
Seduction of the Divine is a long game; makes party reform seem easy.
“What was needed was for the Democratic Party as a party to strip the likes of Conrad and Baucus and Lieberman and Stupak of their congressional positions, chairmanships, seniority, all of it, make it toxic for anyone to work for or contribute to their campaigns. (The Republicans have a much better idea of how to operate like this.) Thus it wasn’t good enough for Kucinich and Sanders to vote for some good amendments.”
Excellent point. That was just one of several options the democrats had — and didn’t utilize. Perfect retort for the democratic party loyalists who insist “all the democrats wanted to see the public option, but Lieberman ruined EVERYTHING! They were all powerless to stop him!”
It’s odd you post this on the day the class war has been decisively won by the American plutocracy, by the simple act of activating many American’s inner idiot in their joyful reaction to the killing of an irrelevant terrorist. Now the plutes can do what they want, and the serfs will just lap it up … “because Osama bin Laden is dead” .. duh!
Look at the salivating morons in front of the WH chanting USA! USA! It takes so little to make them come to heel.
So I repeat. Today, the class war was won decisively by America’s authoritarian, oligarchal class. There is no way back now. It’s over, because a majority are sated by this.
The reaction suggested reintroducing public executions for “bad folks” would also be a hit in the land of the free. Don’t bet against it in your relatively near future. Things will get much worse. Much more “Iranian/Afghan/Taliban” even, in a bitterly ironic way.
Hence, there is no hope whatsoever for a third party now. You are in a tiny minority. You may become the next in line for scapegoating (and the American security state needs a constant supply of those). So my advice reverts to what it used to be. Get the hell out of there whilst you still can. You have no idea how much more ugly this will get.
not that i’d ever say otherwise, but there catholic workers who have paved that road for you.
Very nice diary, Jeff. Recommended.
Thanks for doggedly continuing to raise consciousness about the need for organization. You are 100 percent correct, and it’s telling indeed how many of those who are saying, “We must get into the streets!” remain at their keyboards. I wonder why? Could it be lack of an organization for advancing street protests?!?
“Yeeeeeeah,” as Bugs Bunny so eloquently put it, “coooould be!”
Those who invoke Madison as “spontaneous” are without clue. An organization – the Wisconsin legislature – was responsible for starting the protests there.
As you know, the New Progressive Alliance is being built to unite Progressives in electoral activism, and I think this development, which the NPA is and will continue actively promoting, bodes well for 2012.
Our website will go live here this Thursday.
(Ugh. Mod, as Bugs also said: “Haaaaaeeeeeeeellllp!!” Thanks.)
Tony, thanks! It’s going to be a long fight and yes, if we want to talk streets, as you say, it will require organization.
Boy have you nailed it.
I am liberal I don’t like the term “Progressive” as I think it is merely running from the label of the dreaded “liberal” and I refuse to give in to years of Right Wing assault on the term.
The Dems have relied, and continue to rely, on the “lesser of two evils” meme. They know we will never vote GOP and they hope we will be so afraid of the GOP that we will vote Dem.
In 2008 we thought we had finally arrived when we elected Obama. Anyone following politics knew that he wasn’t exactly “liberal”, but god knows we didn’t expect a Reagan conservative. Obama’s actions over the past two years were a serious blow to the gut. I’ve been voting since the 60s and I have never, ever seen a politician turn out to be so different from what he seemed to be in the campaign. yeah, of course there are promises made they don’t intend to keep. And of course they will change their minds once elected; a trait I quite frankly hope a President has. But Obama is ht ultimate Trojan Horse.
We saw it early and that brought us to 2010. Nate Silver determined that 29 million 2008 Obama voters sat out 2010. It wasn’t that Indies flipped to the GOP, according to Nate Silver, it was a very different set of Independents. In fact, he concluded that had those 29 million showed, that the Dems would have kept the House and many of the state houses they lost.
I point this all out as a positive. We liberals (most of us, like myself, registering as Independent) are organized, passionate, and legion. We did what we were supposed to do in 2008. However, any group needs a leader. With Obama as President, we don’t have one on the National level.
In 2012 we must coalesce and, on a larger scale, do exactly what this article suggests. The biggest problem we face is our antiquated governmental system which is neigh unto impossible to change with long terms of office, filibusters, etc.
As for myself, I find those places to stand and there are MANY liberals there with me. Here in L.A., immigration rallies will pull 500,000 protesters who support a path to citizenship. Sure beats the typical TeaBag crowd of 200-300.
But there is one thing we MUST get behind more than anything else. This needs to be our top priority. This is #1. It is voting rights and who counts the votes. In OH they are moving to overturn draconian anti-voting legislation. Why we tolerate computer driven, hidden software, voting machines is utterly beyond me. There is much to be made of the fact that the most important part of any election is … who counts the votes.
All of these causes are meaningless if our people can’t have easy access to voting and if the ballot box is stuffed. You wanna change something? Change that. You change that and the rest will follow.
YOu are absolutely right that the movement must NOT just be about one election cycle.
One of the most striking things to notice is that the media routinely celebrate ORDERLY elections. There is virtually no concern whether or not elections are accurate, much less fair or meaningful. There is an assumption that if they are orderly, they are good.
Good post, great spirit, but it brings up a whole series of disturbing issues.
Tea Party Envy
The Tea Party has been incredibly effective at bending the agenda of the Republican Party – is it politically incorrect to say that? They define themselves as a right wing populist movement with a fundamental structure of small, permanent chapters – this is not just Astro turf (It wasn’t just Astro turf in Germany 1930 either). They provide a paranoid mythic solution for private economic catastrophes. They’re structure brings the full power of cult persuasion.
I am not sure that traditional liberal, identity focused organizations can provide a strong enough forum for … building an alternative private narrative confronting private economic catastrophe. Not that the proposal for cross-cutting alliances not worth trying, but historically, the Union movement was a keystone in private re-writing of personal narrative about hard times.
This needs more brainstorming – how about a Union of unemployed?
Much more brainstorming. First, my main point about the tea parties is that they demonstrate the effectiveness of well-organized compact minorities, as opposed to the majoritarian fetishism of most of the left.
Secondly, you mention the unions. I deliberately didn’t go into them. They are a breed apart. NOW represents no bargaining unit, certainly not all women. On the other hand, I can send in my dues and join now, while I can’t join UAW local whatever unless I work at the plant they’ve organized.
They are certainly a mixed bag. Leading role in Wisconsin, yes. But recall that during the healthcare fight, they strongly opposed taxing Cadillac plans. Until the bill was amended to protect theirs. And only theirs. Others having such Cadillac plans such as seniors and those with serious medical problems were hung out to dry.
I would expect that labor would be part of the new independent base I am trying to outline. But their particularities demand a different and more thorough consideration than was within the scope of this piece.
Then there’s the matter you raised of a Union of the unemployed. fyi, I wrote some stuff on this last summer:
http://www.docudharma.com/diary/20749/organize-the-unorganized
http://www.docudharma.com/diary/20931/now-jobless-next-homeless-breaking-through
http://www.docudharma.com/diary/20609/boots-outside-the-box
In a comment thread elsewhere, I tried to lay out some brief steps in an organizing plan:
Again, this is a difficult matter, and needs separate discussion. But I believe it critical.
The efforts in the links mentioned above ultimately failed. They got the term 99′ers into the national dialogue, but when the powers that be said no, the leadership couldn’t develop a longer strategy other than publicizing their plight.
The IAM’s Union of the Unemployed turned into a 2010 get-out-the-vote operation and was allowed to die. I’m sure there were fights within the IAM over whether to even launch their unemployed union, thus various left-right zigs and zags. But membership peaked at below 4,000 and went nowhere after the November election.
Just some food for thought about identifying as “liberal” rather than Progressive.
One, there has never been an era of American History called “The Liberal Era.” The Progressive Era, however, defined a distinct set of social imperatives – an ideology for governing – which lasts to this day.
As for the negative connotation assigned to “liberal,” it was around long before neocons began trashing the word, and with good reason. The late Phil Ochs explained it, around 1965, far better than I ever could:
I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I’d lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don’t talk about revolution
That’s going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I’m glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don’t move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can’t understand how their minds work
What’s the matter don’t they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
I read New republic and Nation
I’ve learned to take every view
You know, I’ve memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I’m almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There’s no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I’ll send all the money you ask for
But don’t ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I’ve grown older and wiser
And that’s why I’m turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I’m a liberal
I think you may have made a grammatical error. It should be ‘while not all independents are progressives.’ Saying all independents are not progressives means that there are no independents that are progressive.
But all that is neither here nor there. You say independent progressives have no 3rd party speaking for them. This is a false statement, for there are 3rd parties speaking for us, the Greens, the WFP, the Socialists, the Progressives. I do not know why you would say there is no 3rd party speaking for us when we have at least 4 of them.
There really is no support for Dem politicians that try to engage in this kind of party-purging. In fact, just the opposite is occurring: liberal Democrats like Kucinich are either marginalized or driven from the Party, like Cynthia McKinney, so it is the conservatives that carry the day. How do we reverse this? Your entry does not say.
This might work if there was a plan in the first place, but I see no plan in your writing. There are tactics, but no plan for the tactics to be used for. What is your plan?
Another thing I notice about your entries, jeffroby, is that you use alot of coulds and what ifs, but no real plan. Yes, many things could happen, but what is your plan for making them happen?
But without a moral core, what drives people to do things? Why should moralizing create enemies? Do you not know that moral suasion was used by abolitionists and suffragists to convince others as to the righteousness of their cause?
What are these goals of which you speak? From what I can see they look to be driving decent writers from FDL so the site can remain free of anyone who might persuade others of the moral bankruptcy of supporting Dems.
I would add the question, how can we work with people that are always working to undermine us? Does this not make them our enemies? And you raise a valid point, why does the part you quoted always have to run one way, in favor of these alleged moderates? When have the “moderates” ever made an attempt to work with “radicals,” which are never identified? Who are the “moderates” and who are the “radicals?” Who decides who is who?
Serious questions in need of honest answers.
Ah, but are they really progressives, these people of which you speak? Their records often say otherwise. This is the crux of our dilemma, what qualifies a person to be a progressive, and if someone who calls themselves a progressive acts against progressive interests, against progressive agenda and against progressive activists, then how can we call these people progressives and still maintain a straight face? There is no way someone like Howard Dean can seriously be considered a progressive. Same with Pelosi and Reid.
I notice that your idea of inclusiveness only runs one direction, with people dismissed as “radicals” forced to cooperate with “moderates” while getting nothing back in return.
Since you don’t support my goals, what the fuck do you care about whether I can make them happen?
I guess the issue is reading skills. I said, “the millions of independents who are progressive are not organizationally represented.”
You say, “I do not know why you would say there is no 3rd party speaking for us when we have at least 4 of them.” I guess you don’t understand the distinction between “spoken for” and “organizationally represented.”
Like,I walk into a non-union plant, and I can say, I speak for you. Big deal. I sign them up into a union, then folks are organizationally represented.
I cast my first vote for George McGovern. He carried my county, mostly a unversity campus, and lost the other 98. I STILL want a left of center movement but I am convinced that it can’t get sufficient traction if isn’t focused on kitchen table issues.
A reimagined labor party might be the place to start.
My first vote as well.
Labor Party? The unions threaten to create one at regular intervals, but only as a (very weak) bargaining chip. Creating a traditional labor party would entail taking over several unions.
My thesis is that we can achieve critical mass by capturing minorities of several organizations and their constituencies. The extent to which it would be a labor party would depend on the extent of labor participation. One important point, though. Some on the left argue against creating anything new UNTIL labor steps in. But I don’t think labor will step in until something is already on the ground.
Such a hostile response to a valid question. Do you have a plan or not, and if you do, what is it? Why is that so hard a question to answer? And why are you being so hostile?
At a May 1 protest here in NJ, I talked at length with 2 teachers who helped organize it, plus were also looking to take over the NTU teacher’s union. Their website is newarkteachersunitedforchange.com.
I was particularly interested in knowing whether and why not teachers pamphleted their students. It turns out the their upstart group had, but when I pinned them down as to specifics, it turned out that they had only done so for 2 week, for 2 or 3 mornings.
I had originally suggested afternoons, and targetting sudents (who would then propagate the messages to their parents, etc.). Turns out they went for mornings, and apparently beelined for parents who were dropping off their kids.
They didn’t know about the national firefighter’s union defunding Democratic candidates at the federal level, and were very interested to learn of that. Their brochure says that United for Change will “Actively SEEK ALLIANCES with the community to promote social justice, economic revitalization & school reform.”
They were clearly committed to persisting with some part of their agenda, but apparently felt somewhat intimidated by their current low level of support by other teachers to pamphlet, or engage in other organizational activity. (Apparently they’re just getting started with formal attempts to increase their ranks.)
I think they’re making 2 mistakes. One is to overestimate how much support they really need to make a persistent effort. (My guess is that they are simply in denial, because it allows them to avoid the psychological pain associated with having limited support and feeling alone.) And the other is to be too limited in their concerns. While it’s not terribly surprising that a group of unionized teachers would be focussed on education issues that affect them, at the end of the day, I’m pretty sure that they disempower themselves by doing so. See American Unions are a Compliant, Selfish Disgrace, Compared to European Unions and How teachers could make Rush Limbaugh’s head explode, but chronically fail to
So, riffing off of jeffroby’s notion of uniting so-far minority dissidents within established groups, a Dump Obama or NPA movement could reach out to existing dissident union groups and try to give them a wider framework that goes beyond narrow union concerns, and will simultaneously help groups like United for Change “SEEK ALLIANCES with the community to promote social justice, economic revitalization & school reform”.
My oh my. I’m coming late to this discussion, but it is topic that has my attention. As far as I’m concerned the leaders of the Democratic party sold out over 20 years ago when they formed the “Commission on Presidential Debates” with the leadership of the Republican Party. The Commission is a non-profit, 501(c)(3) corporation as defined by Federal US tax laws, whose debates are sponsored by private contributions from foundations and corporations.
In other words, the leaders of the Democratic Party and the leaders of the Republican Party get together and decide beforehand what will be the topic of their presidential debates–subject to the approval of Wall Street corporations, of course. This is why we never have any debates of substance regarding real issues such as job creation and poverty in the USA. Instead the Wall Street sponsored Side-Show-Bob pundits guide the candidates in discussions regarding the merits of flag pins and what their preachers sermons are about, or such stupid irrelevant things such as whether or not they believe in evolution.
Walter Cronkite called the formation of this commission the biggest fraud ever pulled on the American voters. He was right.
It’s not about Democrat/Republican. It’s about the upper 10% against the rest of us. A rich Democrat has the same stock portfolio as a rich Republican. They both have the same conflict of interest: their stock portfolios and the majority of Americans who live on Main Street.
The only difference is that the Republicans want to take the entire cake while the Democrats feel a little guilty and throw a few crumbs to us.
All right, here’s a more serious answer.
I can spin out plans easily enough. All perfectly feasible, if enough people would work to implement them. But that “if” is what’s at issue. Kwiatkowski, for instance, proposed that the coming May 12 demo needs 5 million people to storm the doors, occupy every single cubicle, shut DC down, send all the politicians to jail for life without parole. That’s a plan. So what?
At this stage, any plan is contingent on people wanting to carry it out, so the Kwiatkowski plan is dead in the water. Thus I list 3 plausible possibilities depending on support for them arising in different ways. And I state that this falls short of a clear path from here to there.
So you charge me with using a lot of “coulds and what ifs.” Guilty guilty guilty! I believe that, at this point of primitive left development, we need a process more than a concrete plan. So if you want, you could say that advancing such a process is my plan.
Throw out a plausible approach, see what resonates. It’s gotten fair support on this thread. That tells me I’m on the right track. Now I need to develop this further, as I will do in various ways. If that’s not good enough for you, I lament but will not change my approach.
On Corrente, someone suggested that I needed to reduce the whole thing down to a few bullet points. Can’t do it. Won’t try. Guy wasn’t serious. This needs serious people.
And no, I don’t think you support my goals, at least mid-term. This entails a lot of dirty slogging with a lot of imperfect characters. Your previous paeans to morality suggest that you would find such slogging unpalatable. If I’m wrong, please correct me.
Actually, I delineate differences at some length. Now you can argue that the only SIGNIFICANT difference is … But that’s a different matter. I contend that the differences I note provide us with a tactical point of attack.
You may disagree with that tactical approach, but if so, please clarify.
p.s. The Democrats do not throw us crumbs out of guilt. You are actually being too soft on them. They play a different role than the Republicans play. Differently constituted. Channeling the working class is their job, and that requires crumbs.
If you can “spit out plans easily enough” then why don’t you? As for Mike’s 5 million, I think he was stating an outcome he would like to see. That is not the same as a plan. Do you know the difference?
I agree that plans can only be carried out if there are people to do it. What is your plan for getting people to carry out the larger strategy? How many times have I asked now only to get no answer from you other than snark?
You can not have a process without a concrete goal or a plan for obtaining what you want. Process is the third stage in a series, goal > plan > process. You appear to not know what the difference is among them. I am asking you, if I am wrong and you do know, what your plan is.
IIRC, isn’t your dump Obama and your full court press all about boiling everything down to a few points? How is that any different than this “unserious” person you speak of?
It is sad that you will not change your approach, because I think your approach leave alot to be desired. I give a F* about this because you are trying to do something on the left about the Democrats’ slide to the right, but from what I see your “method” would only leave us just as disorganized and without a plan for action as ever. And I want the American left to have a plan.
Regardless of whether you like it or not, no political movement can succeed unless it defines clearly its moral argument. Those who fail to define themselves will be defined by others. And you will not be able to convince anyone as to the rightness of your cause. There is such a thing as too many shades of gray.
Is it “reading skills,” or “writing skills?” My reading skills are just fine. But I do notice that you have a habit of writing something you either did not mean to write or did not understand yourself, but expect others to know what you mean. I just find your writing habits lazy, and that is a shame because I see alot of potential in you.
I am not responsible for your difficulty in distinguishing between “spoken for” and “organizationally represented.”
At issue, substantively, is that I do not think much of the prospects for 3rd parties in this country AS THEY NOW OPERATE. You think better of them.
It is easy to spit out bullshit plans. I’d rather not waste my time.
Your Kwiatkowskiesque assertion that “You can not have a process without a concrete goal or a plan for obtaining what you want” is just you making up shit. Your experience in these matters must be very limited.
Meanwhile, keep asking as long as you want. I’ve given a proper answer based on how things need to work to be effective, and I’m not going to just make up shit for your amusement.
So you admit then that you do not have a plan? That says alot about your inability to articulate a valid course of action. How can you have a process without the plan to apply them to? How can you have a plan when you can’t tell a goal from a plan, or a plan from a process?
I think it is you who are just making things up jeffroby. I see why Mike does not take you seriously.
I see no point in asking you questions you will not answer. Your attitude is condescending in thinking that you know so much more than anyone else. The more you post the more you show how little you really know.
You are responsible for your own words, which you can not convey properly.
A pity that Kwiatkowski can’t be here speaking for himself. Fortunately, you echo his line almost exactly.
I am not the only one echoing his line, cofunk and reddflagg at Mike’s blog are apparently seeing much the same flaws that I and Mike do. It is not just me and Mike that see this, and I agree that your responses to questions do not convince others of anything exept your own personal failings.
At least you identify your little gang: Kwiatkowski, Duderino, Reddflagg and cofunk.
All chattering to each other and slapping each other on the back about how revolutionary you are, even though the only common thread among you is your nastiness. Without me to attack, you wouldn’t know what to do with yourselves.
Especially since none of you have anything to say about the above diary. But trying to do that, the differences among you would be immediately revealed, between Marxist scholar reddflagg and Kwiatkowski who hasn’t read a word of Marx, and cofunk who just raves wildly, and you who knew nothing about the U.S. labor movement.