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With Joe Lieberman’s premature call yesterday for Homeland Security Committee hearings on the motives of Nidal Hasan in the Fort Hood shootings, it is clear that anti-Muslim hysteria is being fanned. Here are some phrases [for context watch the video above] taken from the transcript:
he had turned to Islamist extremism….the most destructive terrorist act to be committed on American soil since 9/11…this is not the first attempt by Islamist extremists to strike at American military bases…the statements that he was making which really could lead people to believe that Dr. Hasan had become an Islamist extremist…there’s concern from what we know now about Hasan that, in fact, that’s exactly what he was, a self-radicalized home-grown terrorist…the U.S. Army has to have zero tolerance
Had this horrible tragedy occurred while George W. Bush and Dick Cheney were still in office, I have no doubt that Cheney would have pushed very hard for Bush to declare Hasan an illegal enemy combatant so that he could be held without charges and subjected to torture. This torture would, in time, produce a confession of an al Qaeda connection by Hasan and he likely would implicate many other people with additional plots. Because they were produced under torture, however, such statements would forever be tainted by the known tendency of torture victims to make false confessions in an attempt to stop the torture.
The outcome of such a course of action would be catastrophic. The use of torture would destroy the chances of understanding whether Hasan truly had terrorist motivations or came to carry out the shootings through mental instability induced by many years of counseling military personnel struggling with PTSD. Further, torturing Hasan would serve as a catalyzing event to radicalize many new "home-grown terrorists" as well as new terrorists abroad who would see Hasan’s torture as yet another act in what they perceive as the US war on Islam.
I think that it is urgent that the government take several immediate steps to prevent the appearance of torture or a coerced confession from Hasan.
First, as soon as Hasan is healthy enough to interact with people beyond those involved in medical care of his wounds, he needs to undergo a thorough mental health evaluation by a team of mental health professionals who are completely independent of the government and the military. Blood samples should be drawn regularly so that a record of any pyschoactive medications in his system will be documented. The object of the evaluation should be to determine whether Hasan’s acts were calculated or a result of mental illness.
Second, any charges to be filed against Hasan should be in the federal criminal justice system rather than through the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Because this case has very high visibility and extreme importance both in the US and internationally, prosecution under UCMJ could create the appearance of a conflict of interest where the military would be seen as carrying out a simple act of revenge. Citizens of the US and international observers understand the criminal justice system and would place a much higher level of trust in any verdict rendered in federal court.
Consider for a moment the well-known Miranda warning, which was ridiculed by the neocons when they implemented torture of detainees in the war on terror. A key sentence in the warning is "You have the right to speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning." If we are to avoid the appearance of a coerced confession, this is a key right that must be retained by Hasan. The presence of an attorney during all questioning is the best method of assuring that Hasan is not tortured or coerced. The history of our government in its recent treatment of Muslim prisoners accused of terrorist acts is horrific and this simple step would be of huge significance in Hasan’s case.
If Hasan is sane and did carry out his attack deliberately, putting these safeguards of due process into place will not prevent him being convicted and sentenced. However, if the safeguards are ignored and Hasan is tortured and then convicted in front of a military commission or UCMJ court proceeding, there always will be questions of whether the process arrived at the truth. Those questions will fuel an increased level of terror activity both inside the United States and in the countries where our troops are stationed.
The world is watching. Will Hasan receive due process or will he be tortured?
Update: See this post from Marcy on how "Lieberman will use this case to advocate for expanded authorities under the PATRIOT Act".
90 Comments
One would think having to witness and counsel hundreds maybe thousands of soldiers returning from unnecessary wars without limbs, minds, sanity would have been torture enough. Christ all Mighty how do we think this man came to this point in his life.
The death, destruction, insanity that this man had to witness at Walter Reed had to be torture enough.
No excuses at all for what he did. But when will we look at the root causes of this kind of violent action.
When will Liarman go spend a couple of years at Walter Reed to witness the consequences of his war pushing decisions.
You know the more I think about that that would be the punishment that I would sentence Lieberman, Bush, Cheney, Feith, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Rice, (all of the people who pushed those bloody unnecessary wars )is sentence them to life working at Walter Reed or some other hospital dealing with our returning Vets who have basically had their lives destroyed.
Although this would not be fair to the soldiers
there are a lot of people who might match the definition of “home grown, radical extremists”, Joe.
All he has to do is turn that finger pointed at Hasan, and our military “did they miss something”
turn his finger around and point it at himself. No he has not pulled the trigger but sure has been part of the team to send other people’s family members off to a war based on his and others “pack of lies”
All the while Liarman got a deferment during Vietnam
“A spokesperson told The Hartford Courant in 1994 that Lieberman received an educational deferment from the Vietnam War draft when he was an undergraduate and law student from 1960 to 1967. Upon graduating from law school at age 25, Lieberman qualified for a family deferment because he was already married and had one child, Matt.[12]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Lieberman
Shades of Dick Cheney.
The following excerpt is from Lieberman’s wiki (Leen’s link @ 3):
Lieberman should recuse himself from any hearing concerning Maj. Hasan on the basis of his own very strong ties to Israel and anti-Islamic stand.
[I am Scotch-Irish and have no Jewish or Arabic ancestry that I know of; do not consider myself biased one way or the other.]
AP tells us that Hasan is now awake and able to communicate. Will he have an attorney present for this communication?
Jim, in following this story I read that Hasan was thought to be in intensive care at one of our huge local hospitals. Next day I read that he had been transferred to Brooke Army Medical Center, was on the ventilator but still in a coma. [I thought, they moved him in a comatose state??]
Brooke AMC has a very good reputation and has a wide variety of special units. I did a simple search using BAMC and found this article by a SERE psychologist (about a different case) who was sent to BAMC with his team to debrief and reintegrate some captives who had been rescued from FARC.
I think there’s a good chance that Maj. Hasan is in the hands of the SERE psychologists and whatever is done to him will be in the name of ‘healing’.
I find it very peculiar that a person of Arab Muslim/Islamic faith would have his education and training financed by the Army for him to become a psychiatrist to counsel soldiers with PTSD caused by having to kill or be killed by people of that same ethnicity. hmmmmm.
He received his medical degree from Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences. Tuition is free in exchange for a commitment to serve afterwards. He joined before 2001 according to articles quoting his family in Pakistan. There are presently approximately 1500 Muslim forces at Ft. Hood.
He was moved for his own safety was the bizarre excuse given on CNN. Not much is clear as to what actually happened. At first, there were three gunmen, then two, then one. The female cop was shot at the same time she was shooting him..except when she wasn’t. He yelled God is Great..except when he didn’t. Soldiers tore their uniforms to make tourniquets for the wounded. One article said that the EMT was kept away for an hour because there was thought to be a second shooter. A senior officer told CNN that a shooter was arrested at a golf course.
Strange that the FBI was watching him for 6 months because of internet postings. You’d almost think they were hoping he’d turn violent. It seems to be the way they’ve operated in every case of set up Muslim homegrown ‘terrorists’ over the past two years.
What might be the key is this program; the Warrior Combat Reset Program. What does it consist of? There have been bits and pieces in the news about experiments concerning the erasure of memory of traumatic events. Apparently, soldiers are ‘fixed’ during this program and are ready for return to combat in two weeks? Was he forced to deny PTSD claims?
He’d hired a lawyer because he wanted out. They said no. Tragic are the results of that denial.
blue, here is a bit I found on the Warrior Reset Program:
snip>
snip> [emphasis mine] There are many links given at the site of link here.
Sounds like human robots to me. No wonder he went berserk.
I’ll see what more I can learn from other sources.
Human experimentation is what it is. Work has been done on new drugs to make a soldier stronger, too. I guess one could call it human robotics. Honestly, the stories have changed so quickly that I think we are seeing a cover up of a mutiny in the ranks. A hundred shots over a ten minute time period? Bullshit. There is no way that soldiers would not rush this guy if he was shooting. Did you see the two so called extremist Muslims who were interviewed on CNN? They are actually Israeli Jews who ‘converted’ to Islam. Mossad operating on US soil in order to incite hatred against Muslims, I think. Governor Perry was told by someone at the base that there were three shooters; one dead and two in custody. If his source was not official, I doubt he would have been on TV saying what he said.
http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/terrorism/83163-fort-hood-rick-perry-says-three-shooters-map-shows-two-separate-locations.html
Have to wonder if the training committee knew Hasan had problems and declared him fit because of the lack of psychiatrists.
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“Major Hasan was one of a thin line of military therapists trying to hold off a rising tide of need. So far this year, 117 soldiers on active duty were reported to have committed suicide. The Army has only 408 psychiatrists — military, civilian and contractors — serving about 553,000 active-duty troops around the world. As a result, some soldiers home from war, suffering from nightmares and panic attacks, say they have waited almost a year to see a psychiatrist.
At Walter Reed, where Major Hasan was in training until recently, Lt. Col. Brett Schneider, a psychiatrist, described a complicated system of checks and balances, including a training committee with superiors and civilians who evaluate residents and mental health staff members.
“There is a lot more built into the processes to keep tabs on each other,” said Colonel Schneider, who spoke on the condition that he not be asked any questions about Major Hasan. “If somebody is starting to get to the point where these things are a problem, there are a number of ways we can intervene.”
“Once training is over, you’re basically on your own,” Dr. Paulus said. ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/us/08stress.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th
blue, those numbers are tragic indeed. That’s over 11 suicides per month in the active duty group and doesn’t count those who have been discharged who also committed suicide. It doesn’t speak well for the commanding officers who don’t speak out against their troops being sent back into these stupid wars time and again. Some COs are doing that by demanding the soldiers have a full 12 months back in the states before being redeployed. I wonder if that is the real delay in Obama’s giving McChrystal his 40,000 + additional troops – they’re simply not available to send?
As our reading about the psyops programs has shown, hospitals are dangerous places for people who know too much…
No..they are not available. Those who went AWOL are now being offered a clean slate if they go back to fight. No place more dangerous, unless it is places like Fort Hood where those with PTSD and other disorders are drugged up and sent back to active duty. One diary I’m not sure you made it back to had a few comments from me. Have you read about the ‘flu’ problem in the Ukraine? The video at the link gives a take on it that you will not hear in the MSM.
http://original.antiwar.com/engelhardt/2009/11/08/who-will-be-sent-to-afghanistan/
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/12853#Respond
http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=8239
The National Association of Muslim American Women (NAMAW) sent a request to the ICC in regards to the Goldstone Report. It has been received; now we wait to see what happens.
http://namaw.org/NAMAW_News.html
You might like the letters to the editor.
http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/11/06/alan-hart-how-zionist-lobby-stooges-in-congress-brought-shame-to-their-institution/
In answer to question awhile ago that I just saw..yes, they showed Karzai how to win..but, he got caught..hahaha.
I read the FBI reports that this article is based on. A lot of redacted sections as per usual. I forgot to bookmark them..grrr. I could look through my history if you want to read them yourself.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/how-bobby-betrayed-marilyn/2007/03/16/1173722744316.html
“As of this summer, of those veterans who sought healthcare at the VA, 45 percent were diagnosed with a mental health condition, according to VA statistics. Twenty-seven percent of these had post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
Based on available resources from the DOD and research by the RAND Corporation, VCS estimates that an estimated 370,000 (or 19.5 percent of) veterans have a traumatic brain injury (TBI) thanks to the high rate of accidents, roadside bombs, and other battlefield explosions and events – plus repeated deployments – in the war. VCS also estimates that some 18.5 percent of veterans come home with PTSD.
“This is very, very serious. The numbers are… bad, OK?” said Paul Sullivan, the bulldog director of VCS. “The good news is veterans are asking for care, and it’s good care. The bad news is there is 454,000 of them.” ”
http://original.antiwar.com/vlahos/2009/11/09/90000-casualties-but-whos-counting/
Blue, I just returned to this thread, so have lots to read per your links. I wonder if it is really good care the vets are receiving? My thoughts keep going back to the persons that Maj. Hasan targeted…weren’t most of them running the program that patched up the soldiers so they could go back into battle? New para: The presence of Venom Mouth on the current thread we both have commented on prevents my further participation there. You notice that his style has shifted from blatant belligerence to oily smooth inclusion of himself in the “we” here. I’m considering removing myself; am near a decision.
I ignore him, usually. I make an occasional comment only for the enjoyment of creating frustration because I don’t return to keep him engaged. Can you not imagine the agony it creates when he cannot indulge his usual name calling towards me? I can and am sadistic enough to enjoy it..’g’. Definitely the three most seen are the same creature. He cannot control himself and more and more the ‘off message’ attack is coming through under all of his alias names. At many threads he is being told off and mods are now holding back his comments..hahaha. Guess that’s why he now writes diaries? Perhaps Jane has caught on because in the long thread over health care..she said to him..”let me be grumpy for awhile”. Might have have been a co incide or a coincidence according to popular usage. I refuse to be driven away by a hasbara agent. Nope, not going to give him what he wants. Mostly I read comments from others and snicker a lot. That, or jump past his comment to make a comment to others. All the while picturing steam pouring out of his ears. All snake oil salesmen are oily just like their product is..’g’.
Not good health care. I’ve been reading articles by psychiatrists and basically, the enlisted are drugged up and sent back to war. There isn’t any counseling. Also, the psychiatrists themselves are drugged up and/or quitting because of the stress of dealing with the horrors that they are told about. Their job is to send these men and women back to fight and many just cannot do that anymore.
blue, he is just the main irritant and disappointment. It’s just not the same well-rounded site as the old Oxdown, plus the negatives (IMHO) associated with the other sites here (too much attacking the messenger when the message is “different”. I think I just don’t belong here – maybe never did… I’ll just stay off for a week or two, then decide.
As for AIPAC: that goes much deeper than anyone seems to realize. The last chance we had to really be fair with the Arabs and Israel was JFK, and that is one of the main things that got him killed (plus he was in a bitter battle with Ben Gurion over “no nukes for Israel”. LBJ reversed JFK’s position on all that immediately – for a reason. When the USS Liberty attack happened, LBJ was all hot to go after those A-rabs until he learned it was Isreal, then he ordered the rescue planes to return and leave the ship and sailors to hang out there for 2 days. That “special relationship” Israel keeps dragging up is really a reminder (and threat) of what they know about those assassinations and 9/11.
blue, I’ve probably got 10 – maybe 12 years yet to live. I don’t want to waste it on know-nothings who lack real life experiences yet profess to know all and possess all wisdom. [sorry to dump; too often truth is not pretty.]
I know what you are saying for sure. If you won’t be around, I’m off into the sunset, too. Things changed for the worst when Oxdown was done away with. There are a few good people left and I’ve mostly ignored the bad ones. I look at the list and don’t bother reading the diaries of known no minds..’g’. Needless to say, you and I connected in a profound way. Few and far between are those that we meet in our lifetimes that are on the same psychic level of understanding. The offer still stands, if ever you need me, get my e-mail from FDL..or even just to say hello so that I know you are ok. Hugs hugs and more hugs; you are loved. It’s been fun; I’ll check in a week or so to see if you come back to the zoo here..’g’. Take care of yourself.
And yes, you are 100% correct; it is the USS Liberty blackmail.
Example of a poster has who had enough.
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” Dearie November 11th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
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In response to DavidByron @ 9 (show text)
My son-in-law looked out for his fellow soldiers….most of whom went to that war because they were drafted, not because they understood it. And you? Do you have any biographical information you are willing to share? You strike me as similar to an 8 year old who likes to fling stink bombs just for the fun of it. I’m not sure why else you post at FDL. You’ve been banned by other sites (I googled) and yet you are welcomed here despite your incivility. “
Any idea why the fact that Pelosi let the Catholic Church dictate the ant-abortion provision in the health care bill is being ignored? Between AIPAC and the Catholic Church, the average person is spitting in the wind when trying to get the White House to change its ways and listen to the people it pretends to represent.
Fast forward to 2003; the same crapo, just a different century. Tony Blair sounded a lot like this general. The only difference is all the unjust men was substituted with Saddam. All these years later and the Turks still won’t listen to the UK and the other great nations. I think the Turks know those great nations are jihadists in uniform..’g’. In honor of the veterans, we need to stop all wars.
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“1917 / Baghdad
Lt-Gen. Sir Stanley Maude Presents the Gift of Freedom to the People of Iraq
Our military operations have as their object the defeat of the enemy, and the driving of him from these territories. In order to complete this task, I am charged with absolute and supreme control of all regions in which British troops operate; but our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies but as liberators. Since the days of Halaka, your city and your lands have been subject to the tyranny of strangers, your palaces have fallen into ruins, your gardens have sunk in desolation, and your forefathers and yourselves have groaned in bondage. Your sons have been carried off to wars not of your seeking, your wealth has been stripped from you by unjust men and squandered in distant places.
Since the days of Midhat, the Turks have talked of reforms, yet do not the ruins and wastes of today testify to the vanity of those promises?
It is the wish not only of my king and his peoples, but it is also the wish of the great nations with whom he is in alliance, that you should prosper even as in the past, when your lands were fertile, when your ancestors gave to the world literature, science, and art, and when Baghdad city was one of the wonders of the world. ”
http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/voices-in-time/lt-gen-sir-stanley-maude-presents-the-gift-of-freedom-to-the-people-of-iraq.php?page=1
It was a sad day for the Middle East when the first white man set foot there. For that matter, anywhere else that foot has been put down, including America (educate the ignorant Indians; the few left, that is). Will go to your link here now.
Yeah..those ignorant Indians in America who were far more advanced in all areas than the average European was. Whenever I hear Obama say “God bless America”, I think he should be saying “God forgive America”. The Middle East was blessed with oil and cursed by the greed of those who want to steal it.
Great speeches, grand rhetoric, deceit.
In 1954 I was 20 years old, newly married, believed all this crap. There were no investigative reporters that I knew of; all we had was this propaganda.
If you watch this documentary, you will understand why the US/CIA/UK/Mossad were condemning the release of the framed ‘bomber’ of Pan Am Flight 103.
http://www.archive.org/details/The-Maltese-Double-Cross?start=5039.5
From my recent reading I’ve got a pretty good idea why those specific entities were bent out of shape. “The Suits” showed up really fast and gathered up evidence (allegedly dope) plus the fact that there were several CIA guys on the passenger list. I’ll go to your link now.
Ollie North…GHWB was VP…made a fortune in the drug traffic (as did BC). Yet they still hold themselves up in the world as someone others should listen to. All those innocent people. CIA, DIA, DEA, those types should not be allowed to travel with ordinary people and put them at such risks that they could have no knowledge of.
I know..it does boggle the brain that all of them keep walking free endangering the whole world. The video was banned in the US; we can see why..’g’. They all should have a one way ticket to the Hague. GHWB has been making money in drugs since Vietnam. He’s correct in his statement about what would happen if the American people knew what he has done. We should be watching a glorious funeral for him soon enough. America is proficient at white washing the lives of high up criminals who are responsible for the death of millions. Practice makes perfect..’g’.
It’s hard to imagine Mr. Obama foregoing the use of the UCMJ and a court martial in favor of a civilian federal court. Prosecutors want convictions; they are more likely to get one in the controlled environment of a court martial. On the other hand, I forgot that this is Texas. Even federal courts sitting in Texas have Texans as jurors. Their reputation is that they love death penalty cases as much as they disdain for Yankees and other immigrants (however many generations have passed since immigration) and non-Christians, Catholics included, let alone Muslims.
You may be right, this case may end up in federal court, but not for the prudential reasons you cite. Whatever the psychiatrist Dr. Hasan’s motivations and mental state, this case is now all about the optics. It is inescapably a circus. It will involve the public playing out of our cherished myths, the reinstatement of civilian and military order, the restoration of discipline, and the exacting biblical punishment for criminal acts.
One black Ivy League professor, who might have been tasered to death in an unlawful arrest, but who was merely inconvenienced by a local official allegedly abusing his police powers, received national, indeed, presidential attention. This case involves an Army officer, a doctor and a psychiatrist bound for deployment in Afghanistan, a practicing Muslim, who killed his workmates for as yet unknown reasons. This case will be milked for every electoral vote Rahm and Lieberman can get out of it.
A finding in a civilian court that Dr. Hasan was “guilty but insane” would be deemed by “centrists”, “moderates” and the right as soft, weak, pussyfooting, the placating of criminals by liberals and other Commies. Regardless of the facts supporting that conclusion, it would be deemed insufficiently mindful of the needs of victims and their families. And it would be ill-suited to the political needs of Mr. Emanuel, who needs to show the right in November 2010, that his Mr. Obama is a tough, law & order, war president.
As you say, punishment and revenge will be the order of the day, unless the government goes to extraordinary lengths to make this case about justice, about restoring the social order according to the rule of law. I am not optimistic that a Barack Obama who chose Rahm Emanuel as his closest adviser – and who will be gearing up for mid-term elections about the time this case would go to trial – will make that effort.
I fear you are right. But I hope that we can at least get enough attention onto the issue of due process to slow down anti-Muslim outrage a bit.
I hope so, and thanks for helping that come to pass. Allowing this case to become a media circus and political witch hunt would be wrong for the victims of these shootings, wrong for their communities and families, wrong for Dr. Hasan, and wrong for our representative democracy and the rule of law.
The possible explanation that Dr. Hasan killed his workmates during a psychotic episode brought about, in part, by exhaustion, overwork and over-involvement with the pain of his soldier patients – if true – would implicate the Army and the government that sends these troops to war.
Once documented, they would have to respond politically to these consequences, or be seen to be willingly imposing them here at home. That doesn’t win too many votes. And once they admit the costs they are imposing here, it would reveal or lead to our empathizing with the costs they were imposing on families abroad, such as on the innocents killed in drone attacks. Such empathy does not win votes for war or the budgets that pay for them.
Those would be a hard truths to speak to power. Many, glaringly including Chickenhawk Joe Lieberman, would fight against revealing it. A simpler solution, possibly true, though there’s little evidence yet to support it, is that Dr. Hasan was another lone gunmen, bent on revenge or terror. Except that this time, it would be politically advantageous to the right for there to be connections with others, because it might allow the government, acting the part of the big, bad wolf, to treat our constitutional rights as if they were little Red Riding Hood.
I’m not sure why you think he can’t get a fair trial in a military court but would get one in a civilian court. If he’s alleged to be a terrorist, he won’t get a fair trial in either one. If, on the other hand, he’s tried for murder, either would be equally fair, wouldn’t it?
The point I’m trying to make is that there is at least a greater public understanding of the rules of evidence and procedure for civilian over military courts. As earlofhuntingdon points out above, a Texas jury isn’t exactly expected to be impartial, but my point is that it would be easier for the world to look at the transcript of the court proceedings to see if a fair trial was achieved. As you have pointed out very well, that process is not working in the prosecution of Aafia Siddiqui, so I don’t expect the level of consideration that Scooter Libby got in court, but I’m hoping that with more public pressure, the proceedings might actually be fair enough that everyone can get an accurate sense of what really transpired. Anything that conveys a sense of coercion will cause a lot of trouble for a very long time.
I agree that it will be difficult to get a fair trial, and the difficulty will get worse if the people who would like this to be a terrorist attack (so they can portray President Obama as incapable of rule) succeed in getting it portrayed that way. I guess I probably feel that there are enough extremely capable and by-the-book JAG officers around, and enough consciousness in the military that this could turn into a media circus, that I’d almost say he’d get a fairer trial there if he were to get a fair trial at all.
You’re probably right about that, it’s just that I thought the optics of a federal case are a bit better, especially for people outside the US.
this happened in Texas…. the state that consistently has the highest rate of wrongful imprisonment, and, under the current governor, probably wrongful execution as well. He would have a much better shot at fairness at the court martial, I would think.
I, for one, believe that if he is found guilty and there is no plausible mitigation, then he should be severely punished for his actions, but this is for a fair court to decide. Frankly, I can’t think of any justification or mitigation for mass murder of innocent people. At all. I’m just not sure how optimistic I would be that the state of Texas would organize such a fair hearing, which everybody deserves.
FWIW, even if Maj Hasan were not on active duty and subject to the UCMJ, he would still not be tried in Texas courts as Ft Hood, is federal land so he would be in Federal court.
Texas laws and propensity to execute has no bearing on any thing that happens to him.
Thanks for clarifying that. I had no idea how the laws work down there, or anywhere. I was just pointing out that I felt he would get a fairer trial under the UCMJ than in Texas civilian courtrooms where capital punishment decisions are made by quoting scripture. btw, the hapless Mr. Oliver, sentenced in such a theocratic manner, was duly executed on November 6. Rick Perry didn’t even give him a hearing over the whole theocracy issue.
Don’t worry this guy will be treated great and, all of His rights will be enforced. Just like with the rest of our justice system where the bad guys have rights but the victems have none.
If He doesn’t plead temorary insanity and get off, he will get a light sentence and we will pay to support Him for what ever He gets.
Anyone who still has faith in our laws and justice in this country is a real fool.
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth should be the law of the land.
Yeah. That damned “presumption of innocence” always keeps the cops from doing their jobs. We’d be SO much better off if the first person the cops ever think did a crime were just locked away and forgotten about.
I think in Saudi Arabia and a few other countries, eye for an eye IS the law of the land.
So when was it you were immigrating there?
yes, there aren’t nearly enough people in prison in the United States. (25% of the world’s total number of prisoners.)
nah. they’re not going to immigrate (who else would want them?). This brand of rethug won’t be happy until we have a religious police force on the model of the Saudi version, on our streets, making sure that women have appropriate skirt lengths and whipping them if they don’t. I’m sure there’ll be enough Regent U alumni lined up for that job. Why do reactionary politicos always support torture?
There is no need to presume innocence when fifty damn people saw you with the damn gun shooting people, and the cops had to shoot you to stop you.
You need to [Edited by Moderator. Please do not personally insult other commenters] maybe You should talk to your probation officer, about getting help.
“Everyone has the right to be presumed innocent, and treated as innocent, until and unless they are convicted according to law in the course of proceedings which meet at least the minimum prescribed requirements of fairness. Article 11 of the Universal Declaration, Article 14(2) of the ICCPR, Principle 36(1) of the Body of Principles, Article 7(1)(b) of the African Charter, Paragraph 2(D) of the African Commission Resolution, Article XXVI of the American Declaration, Article 8(2) of the American Convention, Article 6(2) of the European Convention, Article 21(3) of the Yugoslavia Statute, Article 20(3) of the Rwanda Statute, Article 66 of the ICC Statute; see also Rule 84(2) of the Standard Minimum Rules, Rule 91 of the European Prison Rules. ”
http://www.amnestyusa.org/international_justice/fair_trials/manual/15.html
You just proved My point, what good is law if it protects the guily. The dead have no rights and the law didn’t, won’t and can’t protect their rights.
Spouting law that doesn’t work, is like promoting no law.
Because the same law also protects the innocent. If we followed your path, I wonder how many innocents would have been executed just because someone like you KNEW that they were guilty.
Do you have any idea how many people have been freed off of death rows around the country, some after as many as 30 years, some coming within hours of being executed but were later shown to be conclusively innocent? But they were convicted originally because people like you just knew they were guilty.
Our justice system is in no way perfect. Nothing devised by humans can be perfect.
Your way puts us back to the tribal revenge and era of honor killings. Not quite what I’d call civilized. (and for the record? I’ve never been arrested for anything but I did have a smattering of law enforcement training plus classes in probation and parole).
( I do wonder what name you called me that the Mods edited out but since if you called me it again, I assume they would continue their fine work and do it again so don’t bother to try to tell me)
And the law often does not protect the innocent, either. The innocent are jailed and sometimes executed. Remove the right to be presumed innocent and one might as well declare anarchy world wide.
I realize that you hate the Constitution and its protections and requirements but that is exactly why it is in place. I wish I had your prescience and obvious ability to know exactly what Maj Hasan was thinking and doing.
It still does not obviate, that by law, within the United States, no matter how many people saw his actions, he is LEGALLY innocent until CONVICTED in court.
Or would you prefer to have some other justice system available to all of us? One that has a few people decide who is innocent and who is guilty just because they KNOW someone is guilty? If so, then you should be living in Cook County, IL or Dallas County, TX as that seems to be why so many people folks just KNEW were guilty wind up being released after DNA showed they were innocent.
I am not in any way condoning the actions of Maj Hasan. I am just stating that LEGALLY he has not yet been convicted.
If you want a system that presumes someone is guilty from the very beginning, then please do immigrate to somewher like Saudi Arabia and live happily ever after.
When was the last time you read the Constitution?
O J and hundreds of others presumed innocents walked free. So if He gets off, it’s fine with you heh?
Blackstone’s Formulation:
I never said that. I said he had not been convicted yet and was thus presumed innocent under our legal system and Constitution.
What of the reverse, where Texas justice is meted out and one or many innocents go to jail or death row, because the system was allowed to falter and fail to prove its claims? If imperfection must reign, then the onus should be on the government to prove its claim, not on the presumed innocent to prove theirs.
Mr. White, it seems you understand things in the USA very well. Here’s a post from something called Blog for Victory:
Thanks for finding that. Here’s the link. This guy was really fast to call for torture.
Pres. Obama and wife, Michelle, will attend Ft Hood memorial service on Tuesday (tomorrow). I hope his Secret Service crew are more loyal that those of one of his predecessors.
Dubya and Laura have already visited the wounded at Darnall Army Hospital.
They are..he’s still here.
btw.. a little timely article on the death penalty in TX:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/15/texas-bible-jury-death-sentence
US authorities urged to overturn death sentence after jury consulted BibleJurors read from scripture as they deliberated on whether Khristian Oliver should be sentenced to death
Chris McGreal in Washington guardian.co.uk, Thursday 15 October 2009 17.51
“A clutch of jurors huddled in the corner with one reading aloud from the Book of Numbers: ‘The murderer shall surely be put to death’ and ‘The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer.’”
“Another juror highlighted passages which she showed to a fellow juror: ‘And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, the murderer shall surely be put to death.’”
Where do the funds that are distributed by Homeland Security go?
Joe gets to distribute millions of dollars. Would like to see an investigation into just who and where these funds go
http://www.dhs.gov/xnews/releases/pr_1210954542145.shtm
HS Awards $844 Million to Secure Nation’s Critical Infrastructure
follow the money
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/fy2008_infrastructure_protection_activities.pdf
http://blogs.jta.org/philanthropy/article/2009/06/17/1005959/ujc-jewish-groups-to-get-9-million-in-homeland-security-money
UJC: Jewish groups to get $9 million in Homeland Security money
By Jacob Berkman · June 17, 2009
The United Jewish Communities is applauding the release of $15 million in Homeland security money that will go to 227 nonprofits to shore up their security.
The federation system’s umbrella organization estimates that some $9 million of that money will go to Jewish institutions. Since the this program started in 2005, more then $80 million have been distributed, nearly 69 percent of which has gone to Jewish organizations, according to the UJC.
Here is the press release with some more details (Note that the UJC is already trying to adapt to its as yet to be officially adopted new name and calls itself here “UJC/Jewish Federations of North America.”):
this is an interesting take on Hasan…makes sense
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/11/nidal-malik-hasan-suffer-compassion-fatigue-vicarious-traumatization.html
Did Nidal Malik Hasan suffer from compassion fatigue or vicarious traumatization?
There are many tragic questions emerging from today’s massacre at Fort Hood. The one I’m interested in is why a reportedly mild-mannered psychiatrist, a specialist in disaster and preventive psychiatry no less, would make the decision to open fire on his fellow soldiers.
Did Nidal Malik Hasan suffer from compassion fatigue or vicarious traumatization? One reason may be so-called compassion fatigue, also known as vicarious traumatization or secondary traumatization.
According to the Psychiatric Times, the condition is defined as “indirect exposure to trauma through a firsthand account or narrative of a traumatic event. The vivid recounting of trauma by the survivor and the clinician’s subsequent cognitive or emotional representation of that event may result in a set of symptoms and reactions that parallel PTSD (e.g., re-experiencing, avoidance and hyperarousal). Secondary
HAS ANYONE HEARD HOW MANY PEOPLE MAY HAVE BEEN KILLED BY “FRIENDLY FIRE” (really do not like that term)
We were hearing about this in the news and then not. They have to konw whose bullets killed who.
I want Obama to swear no more torture
1) it don’t work or else why didn’t Bush get Ossama?
2) Its WRONG! Either America stands for something or it doesn’t!
The best test of Morals is a Crisis can you keep your Morals when everything goes wrong? Bush Failed!
Hasan has a lawyer..AP.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FORT_HOOD_SHOOTING?SITE=DCSAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Thanks for finding that. Here’s a snippet from the article:
You’re welcome. In May/09, when four soldiers and a doctor were killed at Camp Liberty in Iraq, there was not one mention of the shooter’s religion. Those murders occurred at a stress center, also. The media did not speculate as to whether or not Sgt. John M. Russell was a Christian terrorist.
http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2009/05/army_shootingupdate3_051209w/
AP is reporting tonight that Hasan will be charged in military court:
“Second, any charges to be filed against Hasan should be in the federal criminal justice system rather than through the Uniform Code of Military Justice”
never happen
Today’s update on the attorney situation from AP:
Midnight here again, blue. I better go back and download that Lockerbie clip; it will probably be scrubbed soon.
You and most others on earth until recent times. The internet reveals more and more of what really happened as opposed to what the official stories were and are. Not to worry about videos from that site; the site exists to keep videos accessible. If something was scrubbed, up again it would go.
Your favorite brothers right at the beginning of the first video..lucky you! Howard Hunt was a nasty character, too. He told the truth at the end of his life, but he should have found a conscience many years before when it might have done some good.
This video from 2007 by Max Blumenthal is an eye opener. Leiberman and Delay are rapture ready..can we send them early as an advance team?..’g’. I was surprised to hear who the end timers think the anti Christ is.
“Rapture Ready: The Christians United for Israel Tour”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig
Roxana..the journalist that was jailed in Iran.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/A-Matter-of-Credibility-R-by-Amanda-Mueller-091103-909.html
Justice in America is on vacation. Can you hear the kangaroos hopping in anticipation?
http://rawstory.com/2009/11/bush-torture-architect-court/
“Recently, the Connell family has been dealt another blow — an anonymous memo penned by someone identifying themselves as “Mark Felt” (the name of the man who was ultimately revealed to be “Deep Throat”), cataloguing an order and mission to remotely intercept and rig the instrument panel of Mike Connell’s plane then “sanitize” the area.
Heather confirms receipt of this memo, which was cc’d to six unknown recipients.
Those close to the case believe the person behind the memo is a real informant with inside knowledge about Connell’s plane crash. There are a number of Intelligence officials looking into it, including the FBI. The FBI field agent in charge of the case, Jack Vickery, did not return my calls. But Cliff Arnebeck, the prosecuting attorney in the case and the one who deposed Mike Connell last November, issued the following statement:
We received copies of the “deep throat” letter and redacted report of a jackal that “is not supposed to exist.” We passed on to the FBI this and other information we have relevant to the matter. Our impression is that the FBI is doing its job of investigating specific allegations regarding the assassination of a vital witness in our federal election fraud case.
The “Jackal” that Arnebeck refers to is a hired assassin. Former CIA operative John Perkins wrote about such “jackals” in his book, Confessions of an Economic HitMan, and says while he doesn’t have any inside knowledge about Connell’s death, he would not be surprised if he was murdered.
“It wouldn’t surprise me a bit. They’ve certainly assassinated a lot of people in this country. The Kennedys were assassinated. Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. It’s entirely possible that Paul Wellstone was assassinated. ”
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7509
I wish the ‘deep throats’ in every Intel agency would send reams of memos revealing to us all the dirty deeds of the clandestine arms of each of the 16 or 17 intel agencies (an obscenity within itself). Many of us knew immediately that the Connell “accident” and Wellstone’s were assassinations, yet Pinetta tries to sell that none had been committed in many years.
blue, I’m having trouble downloading the Lockerbie film. I did not register at the site (figure that puts me on ‘the list’ immediately). Have you been able to download it?
Now to go see what new compartment of Pandora’s box all your links have opened up…
You have to log in. Set up an e-mail account just for downloads from around the web. Pick any pretend name that you want and use that e-mail just for downloads. For security reasons, do not use the same password as your original e-mail. It is a trusted site, so using it will not be a problem. Don’t worry about NASA checking a list of fake names..they already know who we are..hahaha. I’ll look around and see if anyone lets it be downloaded without signing in.
Craig Murray is tired of ignorant people, too. The world needs him to keep on keeping on. This is from August, so he found some strength from somewhere. Just found this while trying to find a site that hasn’t blocked that video.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/08/blogito_ergo_su.html
Been investigating Craig Murray’s blog. Very interesting. He did keep it going, BTW, and has an article today and others very recently. Some troll at dkos is after him. CM cut him to pieces with facts.
Guess I’ll check out today’s diaries, then return to the treasure chest.
Those that think they know everything are especially annoying to those of us that do..hahahaha..I will get to that chest soon. My grandson is here until Sunday and I only see him a few times a year. The non joys of living far apart. Without even looking at Kos, I can laugh. There is no little minion at Kos that would be able to put Murray down. Given what he has seen and done in his lifetime, any attacker from there had best be prepared to scrape egg off of their face; lots of egg. Kos has posters who are on the level of democraticunderground’s. Trust me, that is not a compliment..’g’. Sibel is a member of DU and used to post there under the name State Secrets’. In August, they turned on her like rattlesnakes. As soon as she implicated a democratic senator, she was deemed not credible by the dimwits there. She, too, like Murray, came close to quitting a few months ago. If she would not have gotten the opportunity to speak under oath, we’d have lost her, I think. So appropriate that she named her new blog Boiling Frogs.
Many will follow the herd, few will stand alone. She has given the answer to the corruption of your government and people are too afraid to listen and act. Too bad p gave up on us here. He did manage to provoke people enough to at least wake them up enough to attack him..’g’. I wonder, though, he did show up recently to recommend the Fall of the Republic a day or so after we discussed the good guys who are MIA around here….hmmm. Anyways, off I go. Gramma duty calls. See you later.
Hey, blue, look in here. VM has taken on the wrong one.
Try here. It is virus free. I can’t get it to open after downloading, but that has to do with my computer protection. Have to get my son to reteach me how to get videos like this to work. There is 3 or 4 steps I have to go through. He’s got me over protected because I go around the world so much. After that Russian bot destroyed my system once, I’m armed to the teeth..’g’. So, with luck, you can just download it with no problem and no signing in required. A treasure chest of interesting videos at the site.
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_intelligence.htm
Thanks, blue. I think I got all but the last 30 min downloaded. Lots of hoops to go through. I created an account there, did give my regular e-mail addr. Oh well… I, too, must wait for my son to come and get it all fixed for me I guess. I will try the new link you gave me.
Yes, we have Oxdown to thank for our meeting of the minds [??] hee,hee. weird clicks and blinks now, blue. I better post – they may be closing this thread.
WOW! Great link; got it downloaded and a CD burned. No hang-ups like at last link. Thanks so much, blue.
I think that blog should be renamed “Truth IS Stranger Than Fiction”..’g’. Definitely a treasure chest. Rare to find so much of interest in one spot.
From the document link at that blog. Los Alamos basically stating that lies should be told about the dangers of DU that was used in Iraq in 1991.
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/Scanned%20Documents/LOS%20ALAMOS_memo%20-%20Depleted%20Uranium.jpg
I agree, that is a treasure chest. I almost stopped at several on its menu before I got to my goal. May spend the rest of the week on it. (no joke). Got to check my mail and take a peek to see what Venom Mouth has spewed out today. There’s literally nothing he does not know and imposes upon all, as I’m sure you’ve noticed. (/s)
The Catholic Church should not keep their tax free status. Enough is enough.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/11/AR2009111116943.html?hpid=topnews
Love you, too, blue. I may hang around this place just cause you’re here. Lordy, I’ve learned a lot from you, and didn’t even get to all your links. Don’t worry ’bout me; been wingin’ it a long time. Para: blue, I owe you a great debt. You’ve helped me to hurry up and catch up enough to be able to reassure someone very near and dear to me (who had/has/continues to be punished as the messenger). quote: “you’re the only one who believes me…” I think you know who I’m speaking of. No need to respond to this part; just wanted you to know how much you have helped me and others. Maybe someday we won’t be so different, huh?
The power of one is never ever to be underestimated. Keep reminding her that she has it and to not let go. Few are those who can endure the pressure of others without caving and pretending to go along just to get along. She has a gift that will cause her pain, but never as much pain as giving up who she is and what she believes would cause her. Darned hard to remember that in a crisis..’g’. The world has a nasty habit of punishing the messengers, but their truths endure, anyways. Those closest to us have the sharpest knives and can inflict a world of hurt sometimes.