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Afghanistan image used by Creative Commons license from Cecilia
Back in my early days of graduate school, a cartoon by Sidney Harris seemed to be on almost every laboratory or office billboard I passed. In the cartoon, two scientists are standing in front of a chalkboard filled with complex mathematical expressions except for the very center, where it says "Then a miracle occurs". [Since my email asking permission to reproduce the cartoon for a post has gone unanswered for more than two days, I must resort to a link.] The caption for the cartoon has one scientist saying to the other "I think you should be more explicit here in step two."
That cartoon is a perfect summary of the US strategy in Afghanistan. As we await the start of the assault on Marjeh (and pray that massive civilian casualties do not occur) we are told by virtually every article in the media that this assault is part of the strategy of eliminating insurgents and their violence so that the Afghan government can then provide services. For example, the latest article from AFP notes:
The US-led counter-insurgency strategy for ending the war is based on the military taking control of areas, then holding them to allow Afghan civilian authorities to build good governance so the Taliban do not return.
The assumption that Afghan authorities can build good governance seems to me to be the the equivalent of "Then a miracle occurs". Sadly the "I think you should be more explicit here in step two" is a responsibility that should fall to Congress but which they are abdicating.
The folly of this belief in miracles is driven home by the example of Iraq, where the same counterinsurgency strategy has been claimed to have been so successful. How well has the miracle of government worked out there, now that violence is down? Here is a Reuters article from today:
Seven years after the U.S.-led invasion ushered in democracy, Iraqis making do with a few hours of power a day and living amid mounds of rubbish and pools of sewage wonder if they should vote in a March election.
"We don’t trust the election or the candidates," Samir Salahuddin, a mechanic in the northern city of Kirkuk, said.
"I am now searching for kerosene to warm my family during the night, yet we live in a country rich with oil."
Could someone please explain to me how this strategy is supposed to work this time when it clearly isn’t working in the last place we applied it?
177 Comments
The assumption that we can gain friends and not multiply our enemies is with guns and bullets is the “Then a miracle occurs” moment.
If we spent one tenth the amount we are spending on the military effort to build schools, clean water, sewage systems, and clinics we’d achieve one hundred times the results.
The same is true of the majority of pentagon budget. Spending One Tenth on schools and clinics abroad and roads and rail at home, would do much more for our security.
And sadly, much of the money we “spend” in such efforts is lost to corruption. In “The Shock Doctrine” Klein describes in great detail how the Bush administration put out contracts to cronies who refused to use Iraqi labor or materials. Iraqis were shut of the meager rebuilding that was allowed.
Synoia,
Are you sure it is time to build schools ? Right now they cannot keep teachers alive… not long ago a man chopped the toes off one of his wives feet because he said it looked like a mans. Don’t get me wrong education is good but let us be clear about what we are dealing with here.
Unfortunately, it takes guns and bullets to clear and secure a place for schools and humanitarian aid to take place. Where Jim raises a question aimed at undermining the first real significant move to secure this particular part of Helmand Province, I can tell you that it is a great piece of propaganda.
This bold move by our own US Marines is effectively draining the swamp, as opposed to swatting each fly.
Based on my experience, Nad-ali a nearby township of Marjeh, you will see not foreign fighters, as the tribal clans have effectively kept them out, but still just as violent. The British has suffered far too many casualties, and are yet to find a workable strategy there to date.
Try to imagine the ordinary peasant farmers frustration of trying to grow a variety of legitimate crops, with no place to market the goods? They just want to get on with making money and their lives. The peasant farmers grow poppy because of corrupt officials / Taliban, confront them and make it impossible to do otherwise on one hand; and hope the government does not eradicate the poppy on the other.
This particular “war on terror” is the worst kind of war, it is a partisan war, a counter insurgency, with no real legitimacy behind our enemies other that they want to rule over a group of people, on a piece of dirt where no one really cares about what happens….It is still a War and as in all war there is uncertainty, unlike a conventional war where one can have actual decisive battles, instead, all you see is “a shift in strategy” what works, and does not work is measured very slowly, against a very determined and deliberate enemy.
I do not know what this “strategy” is…. I can tell you what is not… an “assumption”, perhaps a hope is a better term to describe it.
Take the time to read up on your history, or better yet go visit Afghanistan, to get a better view of the reality before offering a solution.
Finding a quick and easy solution to this war is unfortunately out of reach, the media knows this, and has not missed an opportunity to raise questions, and cast doubt, create uncertainty in our government and policy. This is as old as war itself. Nice try Jim….
Dayam… Contradictions, piled atop contradictions, dood…!
1) Unfortunately, it takes guns and bullets to clear and secure a place for schools and humanitarian aid to take place.
No, Mortenson has proven that is a fallacy…
2) Based on my experience, Nad-ali a nearby township of Marjeh, you will see not foreign fighters, as the tribal clans have effectively kept them out, but still just as violent. The British has suffered far too many casualties, and are yet to find a workable strategy there to date.
‘Yet to find a workable strategy’… So the answer would be to go in ‘Hard, big and fast’…? Hello…?
Good job responding to that. “We just need to kill more people” is getting so old and has so many advocates who insist that they are the “serious” ones. Sigh.
Your response is like a child trying to describe a black hole.
Forgive me, I am clearly in over my head with all the experts on military strategy in this group.
The only real fallacy is the idea that Afghanistan, can establish & run a central government, or collect taxes to support a force of 300,000 to defend its boarders.
Hello?
Goodbye.
Actually, they’d be a lot better off getting rid of their boarders (NATO troops and foreign al Qaeda fighters), kiddo.
Jim,
Maybe you would be better off writing about hand made pots from the islamic republic of Afghanistan …;Kiddo
See my comment at 12
“mounds of rubbish and pools of sewage”……..can’t get electricity and and can’t even heat their houses. From my point of view it is the big lie to obfuscate the casualties, the orphans, the refugees, the detainees, the private contractors’ criminal behaviors, the Predator drones, the lawlessness of a destroyed nation. Building good governance is done by building not destroying, not killing, not widowing, not tearing apart families and destroying farms and businesses and flattening schools.
We have been betrayed by politicians, Republican, Democrats and others. We need to bring the troops home, close the bases overseas.
All we need to know about the value of destruction is told by the expression on the face of the center child in the photo. Never should a child so young be able to display such hurt and distrust as are seen in his eyes. That image is going to haunt me for a long time.
“Could someone please explain to me how this strategy is supposed to work this time when it clearly isn’t working in the last place we applied it?”
It’s a lie. The strategy is to perpetuate chaos, profit, and radicalism.
Pretending to believe in a patently unworkable strategy is just PR for the domestic American audience. Every significant media outlet has been infiltrated and co-opted for decades, so it doesn’t matter how blatantly ridiculous the “strategy” is.
People get home from a hard day’s work, and they are bombarded with the same lies over and over every day. And if people don’t believe what they hear, which is surprisingly rare, there is nothing they can do about it anyway.
It’s all a big joke, but there’s nothing obvious that can be done. Who wants to even admit we are helpless when life entails so many other challenges? Plus, thinking of our government as just stupid gives us a twisted sense of self-satisfaction.
“You’re manipulated like children, but there’s nothing you can do anyway.” Try spreading that message and see if it catches on.
“You are smart, and your government leaders are stupid” plays so much better, and probably always will.
!
Exactly right.
Saying that the imperial strategy doesn’t work presupposes that the destruction of Iraq and seizure of its oil reserves was, in reality, supposed to help the writer. It was not. The Iraq plan is working perfectly. The resources of that nation now belong to multi-national corporations that are reaping huge profits.
Mission accomplished.
Name calling is tempting but reading Dexter Wilkins NYT article “The population is the Prize” about the supposed strategy to not harm civilians calls forth names like, propagandist!, military journalist whore!. I guess they think that they must lie to numb the public away from the truth that a massacre is just about to be deliberately perpetrated upon defenseless civilians. Who said this recently, “The only way to win is not to play?” They were right.
A few years ago I spoke with a Dutch person whose sibling was in Afghanistan building schools and clinics and roads. They called ahead to ask for the Taliban to clear out, and then went to work. They had very few conflicts. The Peace Corps model works for me.
wasn’t a school for girls, was it?
We in Afghanistan have the same people running the show, that messed up Iraq and caused us to have to fight the insurgancy there.
We never learn and keep putting faith in the Military to not just fight, but make policy in areas where they know about as much as an ameba.
They think force combind with kissing ass can win any situation and are proven wrong tim e after time.
People don’t like to be told what to do by foreigners, but their smart enoungh to take tha ass kissing and do shit for it.
It all boils down to the fact that we have very dumb people running our whole Country and our Military.
“It all boils down to the fact that we have very dumb people running our whole Country and our Military.”
Not dumb at all, it’s how it’s meant to be, when corporate power buys and dictates government power.
It’s the ‘F’ word, hoss . . .
It might be working (for now) for one person who claimed a lot of credit for “success” in Iraq that he was not responsible for but his Right Wing War Hawk supporters proclaim he has earned so that they can keep the war machine humming in Afghanistan.
Pondering David Petraeus’ Future: Running for VP?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-clemons/pondering-david-petraeus_b_458724.html
You’re trying to ruin my day, aren’t you? I won’t read a Petraeus as political candidate article, I just won’t. *g*
Great post, Jim…!
Check out this blockbuster from Gareth Porter…
Wow, that’s a story that won’t be accepted in right wing circles. Thanks for the link and keep up the great work.
Yeah, CT’s on top of a handfull of writers/reporters who are actually in the ME, Asia, the AFPak.
One of my favs aside from Gareth Porter is Dahr Jamail.
Actually, the whole lineup at AW.com on their contributors list is a who’s who of credible inside sourcing and reporting you’ll NEVER see in the US media (for the most part, although Amy Goodman WILL interview Dahr at times).
I appreciate what CT’s been offering, as there’s so much domestic shit to worry about, I have neglected my foreign policy readings and such . . . FDL, bringing it all back home, thanks.
Yea, actually, iirc (could be misremembering though) they offered to give him up to the US
Edit: Link
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn11012004.html
Document 4 – Islama 06433
“The Taliban reportedly believed the U.S. strikes on Khost were appalling, since the Taliban had repeatedly promised to take action against bin Laden if evidence was presented linking him to terrorism. In the wake of this U.S. missile strike, the Taliban hardened its stance on extraditing bin Laden. Taliban religious leaders Mullah Zakiri and Mullah Shinwari issued a fatwa, an Islamic legal ruling, requiring Muslims to protect bin Laden.”
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB134/index.htm
Because Afghan/Islamic tradition dictates that they’ll protect you at all costs once they’ve invited you in to their hearth and home…!
Sad that we lost out, even sadder that the net result was some bombed empty training sites…! 8-(
We didn’t lose out of anything, Afghan was about Talibani payback for booting Hallybutt out of the pipelineistan deals of ’98, wherin they told Cheney and Hallybutt to go Cheney Theyselves!!!
*G*
You know that. ;-)
Your #18 and #19 are spot on . . .
LONG long ago, as we invaded and bombed Afghanistan in supposed response to 911, it was already well documented in the internets that Cheney as former CEO of Hallybutt was basically booted out of Afghan Pipeline Deals due to Hallybutt’s excessive demands.
The Taliban then gave kudo’s to French, German, Russian and Chinese efforts to talk pipelineistan deals.
Our invasion of Afghan was NEVER about doing in Al Queda/Bin Laden, it was all about breaking the Taliban’s grip on the country as paybacks for shutting out HallyButt and US Oil Interests. Not to mention all that lucrative drug trade cash and carry that our secret services so delight in so they can funnel it all for arms deals and more around the world (Ollie North/Iran/Contra style).
Nice recap of history, Blue, thanks . . .
You’re welcome. The attack on Afghanistan not only wasn’t about Osama, it was illegal.
Thanks John, for bringing that one back . . . been a long time, before I began bookmarking stuff I was reading.
Cockburn and St. Clair being two more great reporters and analysts still dishing it up, and on the AW.com list of great writers.
Yea, Cockburn and St. Clair and Counterpunch are treasures who I don’t read often enough
In 1998, the US was pretending to negotiate for the turnover of Osama. I say pretending because the US was lying to Omar and the Taliban and they knew it. For example, the US denied knowing and supporting Osama. Guess those pictures of Osama and Brzezinski in Afghanistan were faked? If the US wanted Osama, Clinton should not have bombed in Afghanistan because that made sure that he would not be turned over. Bush contacted the Taliban only 3 times before 911. Osama obviously was not a priority to the US at that time because their priority was negotiating with the Taliban over the cost of the pipeline.
*****************
“An October 1998 cable from the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad documenting statements made by the Taliban Foreign Minister, Maulawi Wakil Ahmed, that the Taliban “do not support terrorism,” and that bin Laden was moved to Kandahar “to keep a better watch on him.” In a November 1998 cable from the State Department, a low-level Taliban official assures the American ambassador that bin Laden is “now under full Taliban control and in no position to commit terrorist acts.” Taliban reassurances on terrorism also include claims that they “have always and will condemn terrorism, including hijacking,” according to a February 2000 State Department cable.”
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB134/index.htm
Tuttle, did Porter actually offer any evidence of that isolation in the article beyond the assertions from a jihadist website?
Porter continues the practice of accepting third-hand and unbuttressed assertions and labeling it “proof”.
Google Vahid Brown and Leah Farrall and then tell me he’s ‘accepting third-hand and unbuttressed assertions and labeling it ‘proof’.”
Here’s the Brown piece, Tuttle. Show me where he backs up the claim of Porter’s that you quoted.
Show me imposed strict isolation.
http://www.ctc.usma.edu/sentinel/CTCSentinel-Vol3Iss1.pdf
Brown does not say what Porter is using him to say and he also explicitly says that the claims of Abdul-Walid are not to be trusted. You’ll find a rather full statement to that effect atop the second page of Brown’s report.
“Too close for missles CT, switching to guns!”
*G*
Nice retort.
And I love the Mac man . . . so Mac don’t get me tooooo wrong . . . I just disagree on your point about someone I consider a respected journalist and writer. Someone who HAS posted sources and more, in his career.
*G*
and fear not that I’ll be offended. Porter was a hero of mine when I was a teen.
and Tuttle’s retort was fine, but when he does the reading through the source document instead of relying on the GP interpretation, he’s not going to be impressed with the story.
And funny, as time has proven, he’s almost always right!!!
Funny about that.
Larue, old buddy, that just isn’t so. Porter hasn’t been right since his great early days in Viet-Nam.
He went and disgraced himself in Cambodia.
Little more than a year ago Porter was claiming to have sources listening in to a meeting between Obama and Petraeus where Petraeus threatened the president and got Obama to agree not to pull the troops from Iraq.
There was quite a bit written about that on FDL. You;ll find it all if you link to FDL posts from then.
Hi CT! Wow, that’s a bombshell . . . Gareth is a hoss, along with a handful of others who are either on site or have people on site in the dangerous parts of our world. Thanks for that link, I’ll get to it later on tonight as I catch up.
*waves*
Thanks for that link
A young man from Afghanistan was studying in Ohio on a Fulbright for several years. We had hundreds of hours of discussions about his family, his culture, Religion and of course politics. His father is a retired Brigadier General in the Afghani army. He fought with the Mujahadeen against the Russians. I was able to ask his father questions through their weekly conversations.
Both Haroon and his father stated that the government of Afghanistan (2001) asked for hard evidence that OBL was directly involved with 9/11. The Bush administration never provided any “hard evidence.”
They both also said that when the 2000 or more Taliban soldiers who surrendered in 2001 and were allowed to suffocate during their transportation (Convoy of Death Amy Goodman the only one to report about this in the states). That this massacre and alleged U.S. involvement fueled the growth of the Taliban.
Can you imagine you have surrendered and then allowed to be massacred and the crime is swept under the rug except in the international press corp. That would just piss the Taliban off just a bit
It’s a reprise of the failed Simla Manifesto
http://library.iit.edu/govdocs/afghanistan/FirstAnglo-AfghanWar.html
We just keep repeating history, don’t we?
What did Einstein say about doing the the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?
(Bangs head on keyboard)
Yes.
We are going to do “it” until we do “it” perfectly …
(Oddly enough, there is a term for this, Jim, it is called, and this is the truth, “palination” …)
Perhaps it is our nation’s deepest destiny?
(If not its future …)
DW
Okay, now, are you funning me? ‘Cause I just googled and could only see chaff thrown up by the fans of Caribou Barbie. If you are correct, that’s possibly the worst omen I can imagine…
one doubts DW’s vocabulary at great peril.
That’s what scares me so much. Words have power…
Heh, heh, heh.
How be ya, macaquerman?
DW
I’m always better when you’re around, DW.
today’s vocabulary word is a pip.
why not ask the class to use it in a sentence. that might be more fun than fudge.
And if they’re incorrect, well, they’ll just have to try again. And again.
Naw, lets turn it into a verb and conjugate.
With extra points for “imaginative conceptualization”.
Always enjoy your company, mocker.
DW
me a mocker?
your last comment was probably illegal in three blessed states.
Look in the OED, Jim.
There it’ll be.
DW
The base form is “palinoia”.
A noun which describes the compulsive repetition of an act, over and over again, until it is performed perfectly.
DW
There’s also Palingenetic ultranationalism (not making it up)
Just wow. And from none other than Dave Neiwert. This is really getting interesting.
Thank you, John.
(Palingenesis, ultranationalism and populism – the underpinnings of fascism)
Palingenesis – the mythical rising from the ashes … like the phoenix, the mythical bird of the Arabian desert said to live for hundreds of years and then burn itself on a funeral pyre, rising from its ashes young again to live for another cycle … again and again … forever.
Chilling stuff.
DW
Heh. I don’t have access to OED right now (always coveted it, though), but my unabridged Webster’s does mention two meanings for the Greek root palin: 1) backwards and 2) again. Clearly, if we elect Palin, we go backwards again.
Ain’t etymology interestin’, Jim?
Backwards … again.
DW
I did look in the OED on an academic site where I had to sign in. I first tried several different online dictionaries, then the entire online reference site. No dice.
It was not there, under any of the categories.
I was expecting to find some relation to “palliative,” but nothing. Zip.
Nor did I find palingenesis.
Maybe if you try the base “palinoia”.
I did. I’ve a large old thing at home, over a hundred years old.
palingenesis is listed on page 1551 and is defined as
1) a new birth, regeneration
2) the doctrine of continued rebirths, metempsychosis
(and a good bit more over three paragraphs including Shopenhauser’s theory.
3)Biol the reproduction of ancesteral characters without change.
Unfortunately, I don’t happen to have a hard copy of the OED just lying around.
It’s very odd, because I have often found old, ancient or esoteric usages in the online version. But not these. Perhaps the online versions are now abridged.
I may have to resort to google books.
* * *
No previews there. Will have to wait until I get back to work on Monday.
Sweet.
As Empires Fail.
History effin counts, huh.
*G* Thanks for sharing John . . .
Update: Reuters is now saying that the offensive has started, Saturday morning, Afghanistan time.
Aaargh! I had resisted reading the NYTimes story on “The Population is the Prize” until now. It really looks like McChrystal is just not very smart:
We are seriously fucked. If it weren’t so tragic I’d liken his reference to the old “Prince Albert in a can” joke, but it just doesn’t seem appropriate with so many lives at stake over the next few days.
Could someone please explain to me how this strategy is supposed to work this time when it clearly isn’t working in the last place we applied it?
1) I think a General or two thinks that this strategy will make them President.
2) At best it gives us a chance to declare victory and leave which I’m ok with.
3) At worse it will be an excuse to keep the war going after the *cough* strategy fails.
I’m sure 2) is a given but the odds on 1) and 3) I don’t know.
Sigh, here I go again.
The ‘strategies’ are all kabuki, drummed up time and time again to further and continue the corporate stranglehold on the MIC as part of the facist entanglement our country is suffering from as corporate control has bought and paid for our government top to bottom, be it politically or milatarily, or domestically or any lly you want to consider.
The ‘strategies’ are not designed to do much of anything, but fool the public and distract from the reality while the profits flow top to bottom. Never mind any thoughts of dead and dying, that’s just a fuckin by product of doing business.
It’s Milo MInderbender, serving the corporate feudalists.
Thanks for understandin.
Smile…! We’re on the front page…! ;-)
Btw, here’s the AP’s latest report…
Joshua Foust has penned another awesome diatribe…
Ah but the plan is working perfectly. The end scenario is exactly what is planned. Death and chaos means less organized resistance. The fact is, the US military don’t care who gets killed, or how innocent they are, as long as they can go on pretending to “git terrists” to justify the billions upon billions that are needed to feed the MIC machine. They’ve learned that demanding new and improved weapons, without ever having to use them, stops funding. Besides, unemployment is high right now. People will join up for a paycheque. And the media LUVS to help them, so they have something to report on how great we are in the US. Wave the flag, and kill dem terrists! Look how awesome our new killing toys are!
As disjointed that is yer on the same page as I am . . . welcome to the club.
The purpose of having our military in the middle-east is not to actually bring democracy and peace but to protect our interests in the oil rich region with a military presence. I know this seems trite to point this out as so many others have done but if the oil dried up tomorrow we’d be pulling our troops and equipment out the next day. Everything else is just theater to placate the taxpayers and feed the military-industrial complex.
Welcome to the IRON TRIANGLE.
The Military Industrial Complex learned a lot from VIETNAM.
First get rid of the Draft. (no more rich kids, no more rich parents, complaining)
Keep Fighting Wars. (the USA has more vetrans than any other nation on the planet)
The MSM is now owned by Corporations. No more Walter Cronkites
Never Define the War. (What in the Hell is a WAR ON TERROR? when does it end? no body knows.)
Like Rome the USA will die from within, the stupid never really win
“Like Rome the USA will die from within, the stupid never really win.”
As history has shown, empires fall because of these patterns, over and over again.
Thanks for laying it out simply. It IS simple, if one accepts we are an empire in a facist regime.
“as long as they can go on pretending to “git terrists” to justify the billions upon billions that are needed to feed the MIC machine.”
Exactly. They hope to turn the 3 little boys in the photo above into terrorists.
“We’ve got a government in a box, ready to roll in,” said Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, the top American commander here.
The government in a box is well known to be grotesquely corrupt, prone to raping, extorting, robbing, and killing these tribal people. McChrystal isn’t stupid by any means. He was running Cheney’s illegal assassination ring, and was appointed by Obama despite that, and despite knowingly spinning Pat Tillman’s death for the P.R. it brought. Hell, he might have had Tillman killed himself, because Tillman was going to come home and rip on the intentionally incompetent war effort.
You knew it was all just so much bullshit when they advertised this assault a week in advance to the entire world, just like Fallujah. This is about public relations for the American audience, 57% of whom approve of Obama’s handling of Afghanistan.
Bush’s Afghan policy was intentionally bad for 7 years. Obama’s Afghan policy, run by most of the same people, is also intentionally bad, but it needs a jazzy p.r. face-lift to separate it from Bush’s identical policy.
A big assault on some Taliban town? At least Obama’s trying hard to win!
It will get Obama public support for the bullshit war for another 2-3 years. Expect another big telegraphed and televised mass murder during the general election in 2012. Nothing wins the hearts and minds of Americans like a blood bath.
it won’t be in Afghanistan in 2012, unless of course that you’re not implying that the US will be perpetuating the bloodbath.
Come again? You really think we’re leaving Afghanistan? The oil and natural gas pipelines are too important, the poppies are too important, it’s proximity to Iran is too important, it’s proximity to Pakistan is too important, and the continued depletion of American trillions are too important.
The U.S. will certainly engage in a high profile bloodbath in 2012. The looming election in Israel was the primary reason for the Gaza bloodbath last year. And it was a big hit at the box office, I might add.
Will it be in Afghanistan at that time? Who knows? What’s your preferred choice? They might focus group that question in 2011.
Add this to your list of reasons why the US doesn’t plan on leaving.
*************
““I have very good news for Afghans,” Karzai said. “The initial figures we have obtained show that our mineral deposits are worth a thousand billion dollars — not a thousand million dollars but a thousand billion,” he said.
He based his assertion, he said, on a survey being carried out by the United States Geological Survey (USGS), due to be completed in “a couple of months”. The USGS, the US government’s scientific agency, has been working on the 17-million dollar survey for a number of years, Karzai said. While Afghanistan is not renowned as a resource-rich country, it has a wide range of deposits, including copper, iron ore, gold and chromite, as well as natural gas, oil and precious and semi-precious stones. Little has been exploited because the country has been mired in conflict for 30 years, and is embroiled in a vicious insurgency by Islamist rebels led by the Taliban.”
http://www.daily.pk/afghanistans-geological-reserves-worth-a-trillion-dollars-15492/comment-page-1/#comment-2018
Speaking of which… Aynak Copper Project is a Chinese led effort guarded by US troops…! WTF is wrong with that picture…? 8-(
My guess would be..absolutely everything.
Understated as usual…! 8-P
Dang, the better party is down here…! ;-)
Figured that was faster than trying to make a list..’g’.
And add this to the reasons why Operation Moshtarak is going to expand … to the South, from Marjah which is just north of Nimroz, aka The Afghan Balochistan. Then into …
Pepe Escobar
I could be wrong, but we’ll see
The Taliban have a new IED. They called it Omar. Guess we’ll find out soon whether this is true.
************
““It’s a very effective bomb, it can’t be detected by mine-sweeping vehicles and it causes more deaths,” he said.
He refused to provide more details, saying “it’s our military secret” but added that each Omar cost around 100 dollars to make.
“With a 100-dollar mine we are able to destroy the enemy’s multi-million-dollar anti-mine vehicles,” he claimed, referring to heavily armoured vehicles used in Afghanistan by US and other NATO troops.”
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/07-taliban-develop-new-bomb-called-omar-ha-06
read what I wrote, Walker, not what I didn’t say
Do you think we’ll be out of Afghanistan in 2012, or just move the campaign fireworks?
BB, good links. Once free from the shackles of a conscience, there is profit to be had anywhere and everywhere, especially if you just play dumb. People with a conscience will defend you, and even feel superior to you.
I can think of 4 causes for the complete loss of conscience, but maybe there are more:
1. The Lucifer Effect, on a micro or macro scale. Total control over a person or population can turn people into demons.
2. Immunity From Accountability
3. Socio-economic supremacism
4. Ethnic supremacism/racism
Usually it’s some combination, but all of them are deadly on a limitless scale if unchecked. The future of the planet could be rule from a group of people with all 4, or at least the first 3.
If your asking if we’ll have people in Afghanistan in 2012, I would say that we almost certainly will.
Who they will be, how many they will be, and what they’ll be doing, I wouldn’t even try to guess at now.
I’m just praying this Iraq withdrawal goes through, but I honestly and sadly doubt it will.
Somebody will be hired to destabilize things just before the combat troops come home.
Hopefully not.
You might be right about the Iranians doing something to attempt to keep our troops there, but I think they’re leaving.
Domestically and economically leaving Iraq is one of our only saving graces left.
we’re pretty resilient, Larue. we’ve gone through some pretty dark patches before. maybe we’re on the way out of a long bad one.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever. George Orwell.
And good old fashioned greed.
I knew my list was incomplete.
There are probably more, too.
Here’s one:
“Psychopaths lack empathy and guilt, are egocentric and impulsive, and do not conform to social, moral and legal norms. Instead, psychopaths often follow a distinct set of rules which they have created for themselves.”
c’mon Walker, you’re making it too easy.
If we stop somewhat short of psycho-pathy, macaquerman, at its close cousin, socio-pathy, then we find a most interesting thing, the approximate percentage of the haves and have-mores, correlates quite well with the percentage of “operant” sociopaths one would expect to find in any social “group”.
Purely coincidence, no doubt.
;~DW
This list is from “Profile of a Sociopath”.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_know_if_someone_is_a_sociopath
I heard a while ago that intelligence agencies sometimes seek out sociopaths/psychopaths. It almost seems like a pre-requisite for a lot of operative work.
I dare say, even Blackwater may look for these qualities.
Leo Strauss comes to mind, Bill.
He and his followers …
I’ve seen coincidences that might more be purely than that of the poorly being minded by the always morely.
Indubitably so.
(blushes)
Point taken, Gandhi.
hey, if you can blush, I can go Gandhi. or somewhat.
Psychopath is a label that could appropriately be applied to the terrorists in the White House.
careful handling the glue on those labels while you’re slapping them around.
They are self-sticking, mocker.
I been a paste-eater all my days. helps keep fur on my ribs.
That stuff in Kindergarten was the best.
;~)
yes, those campus mashed potatoes never were their equal.
Tuttle mentioned something about day-old poi…
Poi?
I’ll try it if you will, macaguer.
To hell with politics, let’s eat!
:~)
;-)
Yeah, sometimes he goes to fur …
But the hairballs, they are rough, I know.
How be the man from paradise?
;~DW
*heh* I’m the only holdout…! ;-)
Humph!
Exceptionalism, huh?
I forgive you ONLY because I know that you KNOW what snow is.
;~DW
yeah, Tuttle, it’s all the rage amongst the newly rich sociopathic macaque crowd.
surgical procedures to line the insides with a second helping of fur.
way beyond and beneath conspicuous consumption
Conspicuous resumption, you say?
Hmmm…
there’s more entailed but you’ve the hang.
That tail ain’t “bobbed” is it.
It is an intact tail, right?
No snip! snip!?
Be honest, now, macaquer …
You got me worried.
I always imagined you as proper wholesome …
DW
my tail was made proper and wouldn’t be any other than as should be fitting and all like
So then, said tail is long enough to reach from one end to the other?
And follows you faithfully?
A good tale is always such a comfort, especially when you can wrap it around yourself, I find.
I have discovered that defeat always goes over defense before detail.
Does your experience confirm this?
DW
Easy, M’dear… It’s no longer Darth/Rummy/Perle/Feith, ad nauseum, running the show…! ;-)
Also, Hillary is a marked improvement over Rice…! *g*
How about all of the Bush appointees who became Obama appointees? Hillary is better than Rice, but the new Rice isn’t any better than the old Rice. Who in or appointed by the White House is actually working towards peace? New faces did not create new policy. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have expanded. Pakistan is being bombed more now than under Bush. How’s the US bombing Yemen working out? What about McChrystal? He was appointed by the White House. Legal black ops slaughter sanctioned by the White House that is the same as under Bush’s reign of terror. Change you can believe in..where?
*****************
“Like many of her cohorts in the Obama administration, U.N. Permanent Representative Susan Rice seems to spend more time gallivanting around the Washington D.C. social scene than doing any actual productive work. A report from Richard Grennel, who served as official spokesman for the U.N. Ambassador during the entire 8 years of George Bush’s term in the White House, suggests that Dr. Rice spends more time channeling her inner Desiree Rogers than forcing direction at the U.N. Security Council.
“Rice has been more active ‘in the social scene of Washington and the White House’ than at the U.N., as suggested by a Security Council Report study that notes a marked decrease in activity at the Security Council over the past year.””
http://romanticpoet.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/un-ambassador-susan-rice-another-do-little-obama-appointee/
Dangnabbit, I just knew you’d call me on it…! Obama has not lived up to the Nobel Peace Prize billing in any rational individual’s mind to date, however, there’s always ‘Hope’…! ;-)
I thought it was “hope you can believe in for a change …”
There is just no mention (ever) of when ‘it’ is gonna start.
Kind of like Obama’s most-excellent one-term Presidency …
Okay. I’m ready. Let.’er.rip!………………………………………..
………………………..?
Let’s try that again. Ready. set…………………………………… go! ……………………………………………………………………………………….?
(Maybe they forgot to turn ‘it’ on? tap!tap! …….?)
:~o
I retract my Clinton comment. She appears to be allergic to peace. She sees no problem with Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, or Sudan continuing to have its civilians killed by the US. How’s that Gaza blockaid/genocide thingie going for her? Quite ok, apparently. Pushing for more sanctions on Iran and threatening China. Encircling Iran and Russia with missiles. She is worse than Rice. About hope, please don’t hold your breath..’g’.
Don’t be too sure that Darth, Kristol, baby Darth, Feith, Wolfowitz, Ledeen are not leading the team. We’re still headed towards Iran and the pace is accelerating.
Pnac plan full steam ahead
Yeah, I’d love to get my hands on the CIA personality profile on Obama and his goonies.
Definitely Sociopaths anyway:
Glibness/Superficial Charm
Grandiose Sense of Self
Pathological Lying
Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Secretive
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim’s affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
(Gulp)
It’s almost the stereotype of the red blooded Ivy League legacy graduate.
US troops fight the Taliban to keep them away from the Aynak copper field that the Chinese are developing. From March 2009…
*************
“U.S. troops set up bases last month along a dirt track that a Chinese firm is paving as part of a $3 billion project to gain access to the Aynak copper reserves. Some troops made camp outside a compound built for the Chinese road crews, who are about to return from winter break. U.S. forces also have expanded their presence in neighboring Logar province, where the Aynak deposit is.
The main challenge to MCC is the Taliban, who moved into Kabul’s southern fringes after China clinched the deal, prompting the January deployment in Logar and Wardak of more than 2,000 troops from the Army’s 10th Mountain Division from Fort Drum, N.Y. Last Tuesday, a roadside bomb injured three policemen protecting a crew building an access road to Aynak.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008833710_copper10.html?syndication=rss
‘Evening, bb;
Great to see you.
Checkin’ your link.
DW
Hi to you. Nice to see you.
*heh* You’re good M’dear…! *g*
Blue, yer on fire tonight. Thanks.
Three well placed shots to Tillman’s forehead could suggest it…! 8-(
Yeah, just picture the image in the high powered scope, which sat upon a high powered, fully automatic rifle.
http://www.snipercountry.com/photogallery/Crosshairs.jpg
“I don’t believe it,” seethed Ann Coulter.
Her contempt was directed at a September 25 San Francisco Chronicle story reporting that former NFL star and Army Ranger war hero Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan last year, believed the US war on Iraq was “f***ing illegal” and counted Noam Chomsky among his favorite authors.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×1449169
Former CIA Case Officer and Marine John Stockwell
The CIA’s Operation Phoenix Program (1968-1972)
Afghanistan is our new Vietnam, and “we” are happy to have it.
Check out the other videos with Stockwell under “more from Film Archive” on the right.
As a child in the 50′s I was raised in SE Asia thru ’61.
I lived first hand American Diplomatic Intervention with the best of intent in policy and practice, under some State Department programs my father started, and ran.
Granted, even then they were fraught with spooks and inside dealings . . but they were doing good, and working.
And then the decision was made, guns not butter, and ‘advisors’ became military not civilian, to oppose the rise of the North’s VC, etc. So the civvie State Programs were shut down, one way or another.
Ever since then, USA has used guns for policy, instead of butter. But I was alive and on scene, for the time they actually worked. Even as a child, I saw the differences they made for the rural peoples in the delta’s, along the Mekong, and up in the hills of Vietnam and Laos.
Early Vietnam, late 50′s/early 60′s is where it all went wrong and the MIC took control of our foreign policy. Utterly. Been 50 years or more now, like that.
Sigh.
Something that Ike tried to warn JFK about in his Farewell speech…! 8-(
Must have been an interesting childhood, Larue.
The CIA just had to get up on it’s feet, fully penetrate every agency including State, and then it was all over for butter.
Nice story though.
The childhood, bouncing around SE Asia and with time for home leave to see the US for the first few times, was incredibly ‘busy’ . . . and of course, formative.
Foods, languages, cultures all to be experienced as a child, and later, as a teen with a growing awareness of the world, to be reflected upon in contrast to the lies we were all told.
My dad, primarily, kept the lib/prog burn in my heart alive albeit quietly and cautiously, as my mom disapproved of the politics that destroyed the life she thought she’d invested in.
We were burned (my pops and his job) in ’61, by the State Department my father served.
Sent home without money, a future and blackballed for government work. He bounced back yet again, a few years later. He was a hoss. End of story.
I’m a progressive, always have been as a child, and believe history proves that unless one seeks it, most info offered is usually distorted and not worthy.
Great post Jim, once again thanks for all you do to keep us informed.
BTW Jim White,
Thanks for all your recent posts on Afghanistan. You’re doing an excellent job of bringing us stuff I probably wouldn’t come across otherwise.
I look forward to your posts every day.
Thanks. Tonight’s thread has really been a blast. I thank everyone for taking part, and especially thank people who usually don’t get along with each other for actually listening to one another and keeping the conversation centered on ideas rather than personalities.
Jim, I happily second Bill Walker @ 86.
And ’tis not only your posts, your comments, especially at EW’s place are always much appreciated.
You are one of the heavy hitters at FDL … and more influential than you imagine.
DW
“You are one of the heavy hitters at FDL … and more influential than you imagine.”
I hope FDL throws him a Christmas bonus at the very least:)
Salon too.
I swear nsa has my wifi provider pegged…! ;-)
The banter has been great when I can retort quicker…! *g*
Heading upstairs…
you might also like “palinode”
“palinoia” appears both here and here with DW’s definition and “palingenesis” is also at the first, matching Niewert’s use.
No previews via google. Will have to wait until I get back to work on Monday and can go in person. [sigh...]
It’s been that kind of day. Transit might as well have been on strike, for all the good they did getting us to and from work today.
relax and enjoy.
relax and enjoy.
relax and enjoy, you betcha.
relax you, enjoy the relax.
a new start to relax and enjoy.
relax and enjoy.
relax and enjoy a maverick.
team of relax and enjoy.
it’s got to be about relax and enjoy
and the wee ones who need us to
relax and enjoy their heritage
and not tax and spend it
Thanks… and I did. But, then errands, and I hate eating late…
Eventually, I was headed away from the station to find a bus, but was offered a ride home by a train buddy whose husband was driving in to pick her up. Two others joined us. We all had a delighful ride home.
I wondered aloud if her husband would be willing to drive us around like that once a month or so, so we could continue with our book discussion.
If you can start your week-end with a carpool book discussion, that ain’t bad at all.
just keep the wine and cheese away from the driver. ;->
Karen, wondrous as the net might be, those musty olde OED’s are a true treasure.
-from the Greek: Pali-n; back, again
Thus; Pali-n (back) + noia (thought)
Palin-drone (ex. MADAM IM ADAM)
Palilalia (repeating a phrase, faster and faster)
Palingenesis (defined earlier)
Palimset (“scrapped again” – a parchment that has been scrapped of one text so that it can be used again)
Palinode (a retraction in verse)
I’m sorry you had such a vexing time (over and over, again) with this admitedly arcane word, Karen, but sometimes lesser known words are so precisely (if appallingly) appropriate …
DW
and wonderful for firming and toning those upper arms.
Oh aye, macaquerman, all around, good.
Good for the mind and good for the body.
Exercises both.
;~DW
Do you know that it’s still another half hour to the opening ceremonies here in the Isles…! Aargh.. I want to see live, Canada’s Curling Team say “not in my house” this year…! ;-)
Looks like an old Afghanistani ‘hand’ is aboard.
Full of “It is ever thus” insight.
Gravitas has arrived, kiddies.
Show the proper respect, now.
DW
….It is ever what???
This will be shifting and moving for decades to come…
There is no clear cut solution, but rest assured it the outcome will be determined by others, not the likes of you.
Until that time I suggest you and CTuttle continue on playing your call to duty video games and making clever remarks.
Dood, I served twenty years in the US Army… You might want to rethink your trite remarks…!
I do agree with this remark…
that one wasn’t very good, either. During the time that the need for the 300,000 troops exists, it won’t be funded from Afghan taxes.
And the need isn’t a permanent one
nosirree bob, when I’m flailing before defeat and dolefully eying disaster, I reach back and rewind from the failure winch away and fast remaster
Escape claws?
upkeep too hard without the right pair of codicil scissors, Chico.
Damn straight!
At about 12 hours into the operation, I’m not seeing reports of civilian casualties. AP is reporting about 20 insurgents killed and Reuters just reported the first US casualty.
You can be sure that just like in Iraq we will never know the numbers of people dead. Americans do not value the lives of others even when it is their troops and special forces in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan. Those lives not as valuable as ours. Our Reps, the media, the majority of American people could give a rats ass about the hundreds of thousands dead and injured in Iraq the millions displaced, the women who have turned to prostitution due to being displaced. Remember those young Afghani boys who were cuffed and taken out and shot in the middle of the night a while back. Reading anything about that anywhere?
I have more than ever in my life come to realize why so many folks around the world hate our country. They have very solid reasons.
We will never know the numbers because we don’t count or ultimately care about their dead. Tough to swallow. But basically the truth.
When have you seen Rachel Maddow, Keith Olberman, Chris Matthews, Diane Rehm , Terri Gross report for more than a minute about the dead, injured or displaced in Iraq?
“The only real fallacy is the idea that Afghanistan, can establish & run a central government, or collect taxes to support a force of 300,000 to defend its boarders.”
Isn’t the country an artificial construct anyway? Isn’t the U.S. central to it’s revitalized poppy business? Isn’t Karzai just a Unocal/Cheney oil puppet?
Isn’t America just choosing sides in a civil war that has been going on for decades?
Shouldn’t the U.S. be supporting autonomy for the tribal areas, which they’ve always had?
Isn’t Karzai totally fucking corrupt, and his brother a drug lord?
Shouldn’t we just get the fuck out of there and worry about our own bo(a)rders?
All honest questions if you have any well informed answers.
Look Jim this is your story….
What do you really want to know ? Do writers even do research any more? I mean, do you find it fulfilling to hoist the red flag and raise questions to an already festered, & desperate struggle all pointed at gloom and failure? Well thank you captain obvious for your deep and meaningful contributions.
Sure there is corruption, and yes there needs to be adjustments made in all forums, particularly government.
Should we (the US) get out of there and bail on our allies and allow the Taliban to continue their Jihad on the US and the rest of the western world (infidels).
What do you think Jim?
For what it is worth, we live in a world with some very serious issues, War, Famine, Economic failures, Failed States, natural disasters, ecological issues, Pick a subject Jim, and contribute to it with good old fashioned work ethics. Get the facts, raise awareness, and offer hope, Or not, propaganda seems to suite you well too.
Either way no one really cares, and you do not make any difference.
Have you actually read this post or any of my other writing? I bring in support for the positions I take and I link to primary sources. I’ve clearly touched a nerve for you to stick around here so long and keep trying to lecture me, but your rants are so disjointed that I really don’t know what has upset you so much.
The fact is, I see our efforts in Afghanistan as just another version of the longstanding imperialism of the US and the attitude that we always know what is right for a region. In the case of Afghanistan, this is particularly ludicrous, since Afghanistan has led to the demise of so many imperial efforts over the centuries.
I’m guessing that with your cajoling for me to do “research” on “adjustments” and elimination of corruption you really want me to find a way to suggest minor changes to the efforts in Afghanistan so that I can be all gung-ho about going on to kill lots more people.
The bottom line is that the attitude that we can “fix” Afghanistan is completely flawed from the start. The threat from the Taliban to the US is virtually nonexistent. It certainly doesn’t warrant spending billions a month to track down each batch of 100 while at the same time winning another 200 followers for them by our actions.
So yes, I say withdraw our troops and invest a portion of what we had been spending on them to bring in neutral NGO’s to help the Afghans decide how they want to move forward.
If we treat terrorists like the common criminals they are instead of pretending they are great warriors with super powers we will be in a much better position to go about fixing the domestic problems that have festered while such a huge portion of the GDP has gone to fight the wars.
Please tell me exactly how the Taliban in Afghanistan is a threat to anyone inside the US.
And also please spend a minute or two editing your screeds. I know of nothing that can “suite” me.
One would think that Grant, who is the E-Learning coordinator at The Centre for Teaching, Learning and Technology at UNBC, would be capable of researching facts in the real world such as you do..apparently not. UNBC is the University of Northern Canada.
http://knowschools.ca/course/info.php?id=108
http://elearning.unbc.ca/doku.php?id=unbc_educational_technologies
Maybe you should write a diary and enlighten us with your omniscience
I’d love for you to
Because, from your responses I don’t see any of this, other than trite simplistic radio show talking points. You mentioned Nad-ali, maybe you can expand on this and tell us of your personal knowledge
But you seem to at least offer this
I honestly don’t see where your personal vendetta against Jim is going to convince anyone that this is a “good” war
what does this mean? what kind of battle is going on there if Marine commanders can be expected to hold meetings with local leaders?
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-fg-afghan-meeting14-2010feb14,0,3089484.story
That is a very strange occurrence. I guess the warning to people to stay in their houses was lifted for the meeting. I wonder how they got word out?
Besides the leaflets, there were reports that there were frequent radio broadcasts prior to the fight. Maybe they’re still using radio, but the way this report sounds, they might simply be driving door-to-door and handing out invitations.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070620075747AAcD3W9