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Did the US torture children by placing ants on their bodies? (photo: wizardhat on Flickr)
In the midst of the ongoing orgy of adulation for Seal Team Six killing Osama Bin Laden and the former Vice President appearing on television to advocate a return to waterboarding as official US torture policy, there has been little attention to the fact that Pakistan took several wives and children of Bin Laden into custody after the US raid of the compound. The US now seeks access to these family members. Did the US intend to torture these children with insects as they did Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s children, if the helicopter on which they would have flown had not been destroyed?
Here is Reuters reporting on the children in the immediate aftermath of the raid:
A senior Pakistani intelligence official said one of Osama bin Laden’s daughters had seen her father being shot dead by U.S. forces, and was one of about 10 relatives of the al Qaeda leader in custody pending interrogation.
The official, who declined to be identified, said the daughter, aged 12 or 13, was one of the people who had confirmed that the mastermind of the September 11, 2001 attacks had been killed by U.S. commandos in a raid early on Monday.
The relatives — one of bin Laden’s wives and up to eight children — will be interrogated and then probably turned over to their countries of origin, and not the United States, in accordance with Pakistani law, he said.
The article notes that these family members were left behind because the US had to destroy one of the helicopters used in the raid. The US now wants these family members (note that now more than one wife is mentioned, although there is only one in the initial Reuters report):
National security adviser Thomas E. Donilon said Pakistan remains a critical partner in battling al-Qaeda, despite new strains in the relationship a week after the raid in Abbottabad. But he acknowledged that Pakistani officials have not granted Americans access to important information gathered since the raid or allowed interviews with bin Laden family members now in Pakistan’s custody.
“We’ve asked for access, obviously, to those folks,” Donilon said on ABC’s “This Week,” one of four television news shows he visited Sunday.
A Pakistani intelligence official said Sunday that his government needed permission from the wives’ home countries before Pakistan could allow U.S. officials to question them. One of the wives is from Yemen; the official said he did not know the other wives’ nationalities.
Note how the US handled KSM’s sons:
Two young sons of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the September 11 attacks, are being used by the CIA to force their father to talk.
Yousef al-Khalid, nine, and his brother, Abed al-Khalid, seven, were taken into custody in Pakistan last September when intelligence officers raided a flat in Karachi where their father had been hiding.
/snip/
“His sons are important to him. The promise of their release and their return to Pakistan may be the psychological lever we need to break him.”
Yup, trying to “break” KSM consisted of, in addition to waterboarding him 183 times and telling him that if the US were attacked, “We’re going to kill your children“.
In addition, the US may have used insects to torture KSM’s children and other children:
At a military tribunal in 2007, the father of a Guantanamo detainee alleged that Pakistani guards had confessed that American interrogators used ants to coerce the children of alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed into revealing their father’s whereabouts.
The statement was made by Ali Khan, the father of detainee Majid Khan, who gave a detailed account of his son’s interrogation at the hands of American guards in Pakistan. In his statement, Khan asserted that one of his sons was held at the same place as the young children of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.
“The Pakistani guards told my son that the boys were kept in a separate area upstairs and were denied food and water by other guards,” the statement read. “They were also mentally tortured by having ants or other creatures put on their legs to scare them and get them to say where their father was hiding.
Also lost somewhere in the maze of being held by Pakistan or the US are one or more of Aafia Siddiqui’s children.
No matter the crimes of the parents, detaining and torturing children is a crime that can only hasten the decline of our country into complete lawlessness. Where is the outcry against such base behavior? What does the US plan to do with Bin Laden’s children if access is granted? What would the US have done with these children if the helicopter on which they would have flown had not been destroyed?
99 Comments
You Americans target children.
This is not news.
It is contemptible — yes.
It is barbaric — yes.
It is cowardly — yes.
It is evil — yes.
It is the all American way of doing things — assuredly.
News — no.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
“Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehen, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird.”
Targeting children? Torture? Disgusting. As I said in a comment to Siun, I don’t know how we breathe the same air as some of these hideous people who pass themselves off as human beings.
Recommended.
“We’re going to kill your children“.
And since no one has seen or heard from them since then odds are they’re dead have no further usefulness to the Fatherland.
terrist evil us good.
@ hotdog May 9th, 2011 at 5:55 am
Die amerikanische Nation ist seit mindestens zwei Generationen ungeheuerlich.
Vielleicht waren die Amerikaner die Guten einmal. Vielleicht.
Aber das war vor Generationen und nur, wenn Sie waren weiß.
Die amerikanische Nation sind nicht die Gutmenschen sind sie verdorben, das korrupte, das Böse, das Kind Mörder, Folterer des Kindes.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
Not to mention the Willy Pete and cluster bombs..
Yup.
Oilbummer and Bush love them some blood. Nuff said.
Was er hat gesagt.
@ lsls May 9th, 2011 at 6:17 am
When the American cowards bombarded Fallujah with incendiary shells having first turned back children far beneath the age of carrying arms. They said:
I myself heard them say it. I remember because my elder brother, may his memory be blessed, asked our father what it meant.
I learned afterwards that the cowards bombarding Fallujah, bombarding the place with so many incendiary shells that the acid in the air from it was enough to burn skin, those cowards joked about what they were doing. They called it:
Know your enemy is always good advice so my brothers and I researched it. It is a product that is put on meat, unclean meat at that, before baking it in an oven.
Then Americans wonder why we Irakis despise America its people and its so-called “values”. Those are your soldiers, brought up in your homes with your values, they are educated to your standards, in your schools and indoctrinated their with the American ideology that simply by virtue of being American they are inherently better and more moral than anyone else. From this it follows that anyone who opposes them must be evil and deserves everything that is done to them – or to their children.
My grandchildren’s grandchildren will teach their grandchildren of the evil that is America.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
President Obama signed an executive order banning the use of torture on January 22, 2009. Mr Jim White, do you have any indication whatsoever that the US government still uses torture as a tool in the interogation of detainees?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Consider this proposition: by frivously alledgeing torture on flimsy evidence one is in fact enabling future acts of torture by eroding the gravitas and credibility of the accusation.
Beat that drum firebaggers!
When Obama banned secret prisons from the CIA in that executive order you mention, he specifically exempted JSOC secret prisons. And it is in JSOC secret prisons where much of the worst torture has occurred, because Cheney and his minions realized early on that JSOC actions are much less subject to Congressional oversight. Obama has made a big production of eliminating CIA torture while still allowing JSOC to continue its worst practices of night raids and torture. Just click on my name and then on diaries to read. There is much evidence on this for those who don’t accept government pronouncements blindly. Do you wish to erode the gravitas of torture accusations that are backed by evidence in claiming it has ended?
Raven!
PS: To answer the author’s question of:
Almost certainly “Yes”.
Mohammed Ibn Laith.
Thanks, Mohammed. What our country has brought on itself from these barbarous actions will be costing us for generations, as you note.
The stink of wet decomposing blood from innocent children blown into chunks of unidentifiable ragged flesh cloaks Bush, Cheney, and Obama’s dark and twisted souls.
He did not need to outlaw torture, it already was .
His job was to look back and to claw back our civility through trials.
He failed completely.
Missed you, Raven.
Welcome back.
The incident at Waco was a test case and very few got the message. We need to properly prosecute these war criminals rather than giving Kissinger, Cheney and their banksta-provided figurehead another term in office.
John Yoo thinks that the President can order the testicles of a child crushed (assuming it is for national security):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt1-eWU2Ii0
http://tortureaccountability.org/john_yoo
This United States you guys talk about sounds like a god awful place. I can’t imagine why half the world is beating down the doors trying to get in….
Lets try for a little perspective once in awhile please.
To paraphrase Frank Zappa (Mothers of Invevtion c. 196)’
‘I’m glad I’m not black, but there’s been a lot of times I wish I could say I wasn’t [a member of the human race.]”
Frank actually said,[white.]
Yeah, let’s all just sing “God Bless America” and wave our flags while not asking about what is being done in our names. You are entirely right.
Not.
@ HeadedWest May 9th, 2011 at 7:13 am
It turns other peoples’ homes into awful hellish places, and does awful hellish things to people whose resources it covets. Stop trying to pretend you didn’t know that that is what is being discussed.
Money.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
can’t blame MIL.
his words are true.
we have become monsters.
and the stain of greed and war now contaminate all of us.
they hate us and with good reason.
Emptywheel has a fresh cross-post up: Alberto Gonzales Explains Why Torture Didn’t Work Even While Defending It
I’m not suggesting that the county should be without criticism. But I think you made a giant leap here just to unnecessarily crap on the U.S. government.
There is absolutely nothing factual to back up the claim that the U.S. is out to torture OBL’s children. You didn’t even attempt to do anything more than say something as outlandish as possible as if in some way it ups your credibility with other preogressives.
If you wonder why progressive voices are ignored in this country its because writings like this cheapen and make look foolish everyone involved.
USA! USA! USA!
(Now do I get my merit badge?)
This is not true. All Americans I know would be appalled to learn of the torture of any child and would want justice against anyone who did this. If this is done it is done in secret by evil people and is not representative of America. Obviously, you have a deep-seated hatred against America that is based on misconceptions and lies. Just because one or a few evil people commit atrosities does not mean that all the people or even a majority of that nation support that behavior. I am for protecting the safety of our nation, but do not think we should have invaded Iraq, or approve of any form of torture or denial of human rights. Every American I have ever met in my lifetime have had good moral values and believed in helping those less fortunate, taking care of our children and instilling in them good values. I think putting anyone in uniform and telling them to kill causes a break from the values they were taught as a child. It is a defense mechanism to protect them from feeling anything, and may come out in offensive sayings and dehumanizing behavior. It does not mean that that person wasn’t raised with good morals and taught honor and decency. I don’t see the decency in those that hate America attacking us and find it hypocritical to say that we brought this on ourselves when they plot to INTENTIONALLY kill innocent people and openly take great pride and joy in doing so. Mohammed Ibn Laith – stop seeking news that makes you hate America – most news is written to get ratings and so the more awful and terrible a story the more it is in the news. Meanwhile, the millions of kind acts and gracious deeds of Americas people are often overlooked. Seek the bad news about American a you will find it – seek the good and you will find that also. But, stop dehumanizing Americans and grouping them all together in your posts. We are a nation made up of individuals, and most of us are good, honorable, hard-working people. That is the “American way of doing things” – not the way you try to portray Americans. Anyone that listens to your dribble is an mindless puppet who cannot think for themselves.
Uhm, you missed a major point. Mohammed is reporting on his direct experience in Iraq. He has a long history of commenting here at Firedoglake, so to start your comment with “This is not true” puts you at odds with the truth. You can do all you want to sugarcoat American actions, but Mohammed is speaking of direct experience with a number of Americans. You can’t just make that go away by saying every American you have met is good.
Obama didn’t ban the use of torture:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jan2009/guan-j23.shtml
And secret prisons are still in business:
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2011/04/hbc-90008048
It looks like he’s on the left of Obama, who feels that he as President is an absolutist monarch who can be judge, jury and executioner. Monarch Obama even feels that he can lie to the judicial branch since he’s got absolute power:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/05/05/obamas-doj-advocated-lying-to-judges-in-june-2009/
I second Jim White’s statement… we’re in it up to our ears.
I grew up in a military family where I was indoctrinated to think this was the best country in the world.
As an adult, I know that is not true.
“There is absolutely nothing factual to back up the claim that the U.S. is out to torture OBL’s children”
Actually having done it in the past, that is a factual reason to believe we would do it in the future – that’s called inductive reasoning AKA the scientific method.
“You didn’t even attempt to do anything more than say something as outlandish as possible as if in some way it ups your credibility with other preogressives.”
It is actually you who are making outlandish claims by saying Jim posted “absolutely nothing factual,” which is false. I’m not saying that I think we categorically we’re going to do to OBL’s kids what we did to KSM’s kids, but to say that Jim presented no factual evidence for that possibility is just plain wrong and makes you look silly.
I weep for what my country has become. We were never as great as we believed we were, but we were not what we have now become.
It has been known for a long time that at Abu Ghraib the Americans were torturing the wives and children of people they thought could get them close to Saddam Hussein. And yes, it is the American way of doing things. Now, go back and look up some new talking points that might just have some relation to the fact. Otherwise, go home, collect your pay from your troll-masters. The charges are true whether the person making them ‘hates’America or not. Hate has nothing to do with it. American imperialism has everything to do with it. Go read or re-read Hannah Arendt’s On Totalitarism for a refresher course on the relation between imperialism and torture.
Yes. Welcome back Raven.
Obama’s remarks at Cairo University:
“That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments that reflect the will of the people. Each nation gives life to this principle in its own way, grounded in the traditions of its own people. America does not presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not presume to pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn’t steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. These are not just American ideas; they are human rights. And that is why we will support them everywhere.” (Applause.)
…so what Obama was really saying was “we’ll bomb to bits any f*cking ayrab that says otherwise?
really? That’s what you got from his speech. Wow…that is quite a stretch.
News flash, Obama didn’t support Iraq and would have never invaded Iraq – that was the previous president who deceived the American people with his propaganda of fear after 9/11.
The Bush administration and especially Dick Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Donald Rumsfeld ignored reliable information regarding Iraq and went in there and made a mess of your country. I know that and admit it – but don’t blame the American people. We were deceived and lied to in the lead-up to the Iraq war and most of us sincerely regret and wish we could take back the actions of the Bush administration.
You said Sadaam was a monster, does that make the Iraqi people monsters? No, it doesn’t. Neither do the actions of the previous administration reflect on the character of America.
(Edited by moderator: here’s a warning: you are not to try to instigate hostilities with other commenters. Doing so will get you edited and mod noted. A word to the wise.)
It is a rumor–yes
Your links are not proof of anything they are full of speculations.
That on top of your broad portrayal of Americans, discredits your assertions.
“My grandchildren’s grandchildren will teach their grandchildren of the evil that is America.”
You try to teach us about Islam and how its not how we think it is.
Then you turn around and condemn all Americans and teach your children that we are evil. Your views are no different then those of Tea Party members just with a different slant. No wonder Muslims And Christians fight so much. All that rivalry and war mongering makes me proud to be an Atheist.
Why do you think these Rightwingers enjoy being prejudice against people in your region? Do you think like the Socialist’s its all about Oil? It has very little to do with oil. its all about religion. Christians hate Muslims and Muslims hate Christians its what all the fighting is about. Look at recent activity in Egypt.
Even in an echo chamber of America hating posters your still calling us evil. Good job at discrediting the Gorillas guide to Islam. Not that i thought that there was any good religions in the first place.
I wish you well in your earthly endeavors, I hope you experience a speedy path to peace. May your children break the circle of hate that you are teaching them..
LibertyBell, certainly many Americans as individuals do “kind acts and gracious deeds,” but as a country, we are an inhuman monster, as evidenced by our history: ethnic cleansing and genocide against the native Americans; slavery; economic exploitation around the world; support of oppressive governments; and the ultimate evil defined at Nuremberg: wars of aggression.
Doesn’t our faith teach us that we will be judged not by how we treat our own people (not that we have done so well on that score–have you noticed all the homeless, jobless, hungry, sick people in our own country?), but how we treat other people?
The “American way of doing things” is to grab resources from around the world, no holds barred. We are about 6% of the world’s population, and we consume more than 25% of the world’s resources. Then we like to brag about how kind and generous we are.
You advise Mohammed Ibn Laith to “stop seeking news that makes you hate America.” It would make more sense for the U.S. to stop acting in ways that make people all over the world hate America. We could turn ourselves around, we could try to live up to the ideals we pretend to hold dear, we could apologize and try to make sincere amends (though we can’t bring back all those whose deaths we have caused), we could, in a word, repent. That would make a lot more sense, and be a lot more effective, than telling our victims not to notice that we are destroying them and the people they love.
“Mohammed is reporting on his direct experience in Iraq”
How is that any different then: “This is not true. All Americans I know would be appalled to learn of the torture of any child and would want justice against anyone who did this.”?
Is that not the same communication of personal experience?
Hello? Have you missed the ongoing saga of the torture of Pvc. Bradley Manning? We don’t even have to mention the JSOC secret prisons, which Obama exempted from his fake “end” to torture, we can just watch the destruction of this young man’s mind. His crime? Whistleblowing about war crimes that his superiors insisted on ignoring.
Luckily a rich woman spent $74,000 to embarrass Obama about Bradley Manning’s torture, and his treatment has supposedly been changed for the better. But he still languishes in prison, with no charges laid, and no trial (as if he’ll even get a fair trial) in sight.
@LibertyBell
“We were deceived and lied to in the lead-up to the Iraq war and most of us sincerely regret and wish we could take back the actions of the Bush administration.”
Oh, so that means he shouldn’t blame the American People? Newsflash, some of us were against the war from day 1, and were smart enough not to trust our government’s hokey and phony line of BS regarding why we should go in there. That means it should have been possible for you to see through it as well, but I guess you were too busy yelling “USA USA USA” to open your eyes and see the truth.
On the other hand, the mindset you display shows you’ll once again be “wishing you could take back” whatever we are doing to innocents in lord knows where, when those stories inevitably come out, because once again, you blindly accepted the lies that the gov’t is peddling.
I think Mr. Ibn Laith is right to question the character of American when people like yourself so blindly and willingly believe whatever the government tells you about its foreign escapes, many accounts of which have already been proven to be a sack of lies thanks to Wikileaks and hopefully more revelations down the road.
Someone once said that Obama should have been elected to be U.S. Toastmaster, not president. He sure makes nice speeches. But his actions speak a lot louder than his lying words.
In every way that increases death, destruction, and violation of human rights, he has continued and amplified the policies of the Bush administration. Obama is Bush on steroids.
Very good point on Manning. Thanks for bringing it up.
Not my values and not the values of “most” of the people I personally know…but it is out there for sure. I hope you teach your children that there are millions of us who categorically abhor what has happened and continues to happen. There must be a new way in this world….
Replying to LibertyBell May 9th, 2011 at 8:09 am
Take your worthless snivelling filthy American lies and whore them out at somebody else.
The difference between me and you is that I know what I am talking about from direct personal experience – unlike you. I know from direct personal experience what you Americans do after you have concocted a pack of lies so that you can wage aggressive war against the peoples of other countries:
My grandfather.
Both my parents.
Every single one of my brothers, one of them my youngest brother shot to death in my arms as I ran with him to try to get him to a doctor.
Every single one of my uncles on both sides of my family.
All but two aunts again both sides of my family.
Three out of my four sisters.
The difference between me and you is that I am telling the truth about the cowardly barbarism with which you Americans behave outside of America.
You can tell yourself as many comforting lies as you want to. That you have to do so demonstrates plainly that you lack the courage and the honesty to even consider looking at the truth.
But they are still lies and you are telling lies. And you and I and everyone reading this, knows them for what they are – lies.
And you and I everyone reading this knows you for what you are.
Tell your lies to somebody else. It takes a lot more than:
To see to it that 500,000 children die and then say that On the 60 Minutes program that it was “worth it”.
It takes a lot more than:
To create a society with more than 5 million refugees, one million widows, and 4½-5 million orphans.
It takes a lot more than
to do all that.
As for the remainder of your excuses and special pleading I am not interested, not even a little bit, in how you Americans behave in America, or how you treat one another. I am interested in the fact that once you get into what you call “third world” countries that the mask slips revealing the amoral predator beneath.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
Regarding the torture of children, for a well-documented instance of this, see my article at Truthout, “Guantanamo Psychologist Led Rendition and Imprisonment of Afghan Boys, Complaint Charges.”
Um, since I wrote it, my extensive quote is certainly going to be “fair use”:
Disgust. I’m ashamed to be American.
For decades now traveling Americans have had to hide their Nationality. I’m now ashamed to admit it within my own borders. No punishment is too great. Unfortuantely that is exactly what they will recieve; no punishment. Disgust and revulsion.
The truth is that evil is everywhere – it is no more an American monopoly than it is an Islamic franchise. Anyone who tries to claim the purity banner and foist the evil solely on the “other” is more a part of, than apart from, the evil.
America has done evil and needs to address its own house. Hopefully we will, although I don’t have as much belief in that as once I did.
Criticism that comes from those who won’t see the evil on the other side of the divide as well, though, is weak water. America owns it’s torture and its decimation and Americans who won’t denounce that evil own the consequences. But just as surely, those who support honor killing of even children, support selling off 10 year old girls as “brides” and refuse education (threatening and exacting the ultimate in consequences); those who engage in plots to send planes with children into buildings with children or who *merely* rejoice in the streets over that evil; those who refuse to as vigorously denounce the suicide bombers at home as the drone bombs from over the border, are also going to own the consequence of their tunnel vision.
Absolutely, as Americans, we are responsible for what is done in our name, but anyone who sells evil as being an American aberration – something that they can incite their grandchildren to hatred over, while never owning any evil of their own – well, there’s not much credibiltiy there.
“I think Mr. Ibn Laith is right to question the character of American when people like yourself so blindly and willingly believe whatever the government tells you about its foreign escapes, many accounts of which have already been proven to be a sack of lies thanks to Wikileaks and hopefully more revelations down the road.”
That’s exactly it. I am NEVER offended by anything Mohammed Ibn Laith writes here -indeed I am very grateful for his participation- because I agree with him. And I am ashamed of my country. And I despair that all this evil madness will never end.
Truth. Thanks, Mary.
So, move on. Torture the little buggers!
Say what you will about Pakistan, but my first thought on reading that the country refused to turn Bin Laden’s wives over: good for them.
Because my suspicion of torture interrogation was also in that first thought.
We may not be in the Bush Regime any longer, but Bradly Manning is living proof that the Obama administration may not stop at torture, either.
Replying to LibertyBell May 9th, 2011 at 8:46 am
I judge people based on what they do not on what they say.
The American electorate voted for them twice. Even after it was clear that they were waging war on the basis of a pack of lies that they knew to be a pack of lies.
Even after it was clear that American forces were deliberately, cynically, viciously, with malice and with forethought, targeting unarmed civilians as a tactic the American electorate voted for them. All the while repeating:
Your blather about blamelessness is just that – blather and you know it.
You need to make your mind up about what sort of government you have. Either you have representative democracy in which the citizenry are responsible for their government or you have some form of serfdom.
News Flash: LibertyBell Obama is carrying out the same policies as his predecessor. He is doing it more efficiently. That is the only difference.
Yes I said Saddam was a monster. The man was evil so evil that the word "vile" does not adequately describe him. Tell me, LibertineBell, American civilian sitting in comfort and safety in America, tell me what you would do faced with the mukhabarat and the torture chamber. We rose – to be stabbed in the back by you Americans. Will I tell you about the man who taught me English? He was wounded in the uprising against the tyrant – the one your government urged our people to take part in and support. Some people hid him and smuggled him out of the country. When ad-Diwaniyah fell to Saddam’s soldiers the the mukhabarat took his wife and children they recorded their screams and pleas for mercy as they slowly and agonisly died. They kept those tapes and drove round the city playing them in a loudspeaker truck. Years later they expended a lot of effort to track my Englsih teacher down. A copy of the tapes of his wife and children shrieking in agony was pushed through his door. We do not know where they are buried.
That is one, just one, relatively mild expample of the tyrant who one American government after another gave weapons to and the intstruments of torture to. He was your ally until he got "uppity" and attacked Kuwait. And you, sitting in comnfort and safety in America try to use his monstrousness as an argument against me. Saddam was bad, he was evil, what he did was mostrous – ask the Kurds. What you Americans have done here is worse.
Shame on you LibertyBell – you should hang your head for shame that you Americans have succeeded in treating my people worse than Saddam and the Ba’ath did.
Nor was he alone, look at the Saudis, look at Mubarak, look at what is happening in Bahrain and Gaza. Whereever your country your hirelings go in this region, death and evil and misery follow.
You are worse than Saddam. In one respect he better than you – he never lied about it. Quite the reverse in fact.
Mohammed Ibn Laith
No. Not the same at all. Not even close.
Your personal experiences with other Americans in peacetime America have nothing to do with the experiences that foreigners have with Americans in other countries — especially countries invaded and occupied by America’s blundering military and mercenary forces. When I got to Vietnam after undergoing several years of military indoctrination in America, I knew that “winning their hearts and minds” really meant “grab ‘em by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow.” It took me a little while in country to start seeing myself as the Vietnamese saw me: just another bigoted and ignorant white man easily separated from his money.
Most Americans never reach that level of self-awareness because they have — by deliberate design of their government and military — almost no direct dealings with war and its attendant dehumanization of all concerned. Many Americans who do have to serve in our endless, pointless wars of aggression come to realize that all the moral values they had learned at home mean nothing at all when forced by their own military superiors to violate those values in almost every dealing with the local “little brown brothers” or “gooks.” The schizophrenia induced by this blatant hypocrisy has led record numbers of American servicemen to commit either murder or suicide in recent years.
When Americans forcibly deprive their governing class of its endless wars of aggression and self-aggrandizement, then America and the world will realize a much better integration and sharing of peaceful values. End our wars. Imprison our malefactors: civilian and military. Then lead by example not intimidate through “full spectrum dominance.”
Could you share some thoughts on Nick Berg? His cousin, whose father is Iraki by the way, is a friend of mine. What happened?
Also, please, with respect…refrain from the blanket “you” and “your”..We hate what has happened and is happening. We have to speak in peaceful terms between the peoples of all countries. Anger, fear, resentment….all lead to sorrow. One cannot build communication within those emotions..even though they are there.
My experiences serving eighteen months in the now-defunct Republic of South Vietnam dispose me to understand and sympathize with your outrage. The vast destruction that we Americans visited upon the Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians — none of whom ever attacked or threatened America — remains to this day unacknowledged by the American public. My own witnessing of so much of it — and my inability to communicate that to my fellow citizens — has made me an alien in my own land for most of my adult life. Fortunately, I finally managed to escape that blighted, imploding land for a more civilized life abroad. I only wish I could have done so sooner.
I know something of what you feel. Not anywhere near as much, of course, but enough to appreciate your comments. I find that they ring clear and true. I appreciate them. As Noam Chomsky writes in his book “Failed States” (meaning America, among others): “The scale of the catastrophe in Iraq is so extreme that it can barely be reported.” Thank you for sharing your reports with us. We need them because our own government and corporate sycophant media will do everything in their considerable power to keep us in the dark about what the American government does abroad in our names.
I will not vote again for the Nobel Peace Prize warmonger, Barack Obama. I find him as cruel and mindless as Deputy Dubya Bush and Bubba Bill Clinton before him. No likely un-militarized alternatives appear on the horizon, however, as in America the ruling oligarchy will not permit any. However, if the Iraqi and Afghan peoples — like the Vietnamese — finally manage to eject America, kicking and screaming, from their lands and lives, I will celebrate along with them at the liberation of all our countries.
I like to think I’m pretty well informed on the torture issue, but:
We tortured KSM’s children? Really? Major uggh.
Could I have link, so I can scope this out at my convenience?
You are making what is frankly a very typical and very foolish and very Western assumption. I’ve literally known Mohammed from when he was born he doesn’t believe in revenge – he does however believe very firmly indeed in retribution.
Mohammed is not a Christian or a westerner he isn’t even remotely influenced by the systems of thought and belief that you take for granted. Why would he be? Name me one good thing that America has done for his people or for him, just one.
As he truthfully points out America has managed to be worse than Saddam.
du
Now this:
Really that’s pretty low don’t you think? Mohammed and the people he works with and for put their lives on the line every day opposing what you’ve given examples of. Their are plenty of team members who’ve died doing it too.
As to Mohammed himself this is what he was doing 4 years ago:
Gorilla’s Guides » Blog Archive » What will we talk about today you and I?
Later on in that he describes going into buildings just after a bombing knowing full well that the bombers often rigged a second or a third bomb to kill the rescuers. The brother he mentions in the piece I’ve linked to died in just such a cascade bombing.
You can read about his activiities more recently in this posting on on this very site: MyFDL
What was that about credibility? Nowhere has Mohammed ever pretended that America holds the monopoly on evil. He does rightly point out that he and people like him cannot hope to succeed in putting theior house in order while your troops are busy wrecking it and leaving it wide open to the fanatics and the haters.
It’s not Mohammed who lacks credibility here.
du
You’ve phrased it as a question which is sensible. However given past and present American activities and performance that’s a very reasonable assumption to make.
du
@ Mohammed Ibn Laith May 9th, 2011 at 6:10 am
Wann hast du angefangen, Deutsch zu lernen?
du
See http://warisacrime.org/node/41812 and the links in it.
Ich hoffe, Sie nicht davon ausgehen, wir alle sprechen Deutsch oder?
Könnten Sie einige Gedanken über Nick Berg? Sein Cousin, dessen Vater Iraki übrigens ein Freund von mir. Was ist passiert?
Auch, bitte, mit Respekt … Refrain von der Decke “Sie” und “Ihr” .. Wir hassen, was geschehen ist und geschieht. Wir müssen in friedlichen Bedingungen zwischen den Völkern aller Länder zu sprechen. Wut, Angst, Ärger …. Alle führen zu Leid. Man kann nicht bauen Kommunikation innerhalb dieser Emotionen .. obwohl sie da sind.
As a progressive/liberal I find some of the comments on this site just as odious as those on the rightwingnut side of the equation. It is easy for anyone to “say” these things were done by Americans and have no proof. I don’t doubt horrors take place in war sitations and Iraq was not a just war. For any and all these tragedies, I for one am very sorry. I truly do not believe, however, that we are targeting children nor that we are still using the torture techniques of early Bush years. There are people who would know if they were; none of them are here.
Don’t forget the second half of that Nietzsche quote:
No, as a “progressive liberal” what you are really disturbed about is that we are actually the progressive liberals. WE do not defend or excuse torture in anyway just because there is a “democrat” in office. Up above there are links by spanish inquisition if you cared enough as a progressive liberal to actually read them:
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2011/04/hbc-90008048
Recall that when Barack Obama was inaugurated, he issued an executive order designed to shut down secret prisons. When the order was finally released, initially expansive language had been narrowed to cover only secret prisons run by the CIA. Journalists and human rights groups then began to document the existence of detention operations involving the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC), including the “Tor” or “Black Prison” at Bagram.
Obama learned so well from Bush-just give it a different name and pretend the problem is solved. Clear skies for torture.
I doubt you’ll get a reply tonight it’s rather late in Irak and I expect he’s long gone.
du
Trauma and truth. These comments show so clearly the dynamic that occurs when truth and trauma go into action. In order for any violence to occur there has to first be “invalidation”. That is, the person using violence must first decide that those who will be victims of that violence are not as “valid” as the ones dishing out the violence.
The mechanism of invalidation is to minimize, deny or blame. Once we have been victimized, we have a strong reaction to invalidation. The brain reacts to trauma by getting more emotional. Bigger emotion as if to say, PAY ATTENTION. So the perpetrators of violence tend to minimize (it’s not that big a deal) or they deny (we didn’t do that) or they blame (it’s your fault, we had to bomb you). These two polar positions create conflict. This conflict is the source of almost all violence. It’s like the makings of a nuclear weapon in human terms. The more invalidated, the bigger the emotional reactions and interestingly the brain actually changes as a result. (perhaps a safety feature of the human brain that worked better before the advent of a larger frontal lobe).
People who have been victimized will often react to invalidation by being more expansive and emotional to make their point…to get the validation that all of humanity needs. (in order to make better decisions down the road). Imagine if you could abuse children and there were no consequences. Imagine if you could torture people and their were no consequences to the brain. Imagine if you could wage war and there were no emotional or psychological consequences to those involved??? (Oh, yah, that the distortion we have been living). So the answer to that, is first, violence factually damages human brains, cultures and society…to be on either side as victim or perpetrator and that there is a fine line between the invalidation of violence and how perpetrators are born. Secondly, the cognitive distortion we carry on either side (victim or perpetrator)…put us at odds with one another. We must find the kernal of truth and we must be willing to validate the human suffering that results from violence.
This is the key to finding peace. Buddhist monks experience compassion when they look at pictures of suffering humans. Buddism requires acceptance as a practice, instead of avoidance (minimize, deny and blame). Westerners when tested with the same pictures did not have the compassion center of the brain light up. (per MRI’s of the brain). Instead the westerner brain avoided, averted and tried to run from the images per mri results.
What I want to say to MIL is that I am deeply ashamed of the violence that my country as perpetrated. I spend my whole life working at healing trauma because I believe this is the only real path to peace. My heart goes out to you and your example only solidifies my committment to the truth. Thank you for sharing your perspective. You are always welcome in my heart to tell me your truth. I will listen and seek truth in what you say.
We cannot heal, we cannot find peace until we are capable of true compassion.
Ants may seem awkward, irritating, small things. They don’t need to be the size of those the Jameses Whitmore and Arness battled in the Cold War era thriller, Them! Several – or one tarantula – on a piece of angel-food cake are not just inconspicuous, but can appear unhealthy or frightening.
In some parts of the world, there are ants that are quite dangerous, even if you do not go into anaphylactic shock when bitten. That nice green spot in Dallas will seem less hospitable when your picnic attracts a swarm of fire ants.
Like spiders, snakes, heights, enclosed spaces, the issue is to use anything that invokes fear. Fear elicits panic, disorientation, a willingness to do anything to find a safe place. It can induce fear of death. Its use against adults in questionable. Its use on children is a crime, as is threatening to harm or kill them in order to induce an adult to reveal what he knows – or doesn’t know.
Genau.
This is, as far as I can tell, flat out false. Here’s the relevant part of Executive Order 13491:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/EnsuringLawfulInterrogations
Where’s the ‘specific exemption’ for JSOC? There isn’t any.
Now in order to see if what you claimed checked out I took the time to read through all of EO 13491 myself. That took some time and effort on my part, all on account of that you cant be bothered to exercise quality control and ensure that what you boldly assert checks out. Next time you’ll have to cite the specific evidence you think you have and not expect me to read through your collected conspiratorial rantings to find if there even one fact that is verifiable.
The law passed by congress to outlaw the Bush admins interogation practices was vetoed by Bush, and it thus never became law. The Bush admin did a (tortured) reading of domestic and international law that permited them to order citizens of the United States to commit torture.
Executive Order 13491 explicitly forbids all such practices under the Obama administration, including torturing children with insects. Torturing children is what the post I responded to accused the Obama admin of doing, which was completely unwarranted and dishonest.
I sympathize with your desire to see justice for what went down during the Bush years, but it’s irrelevant to the subject at hand. IOW you’re moving the goalposts.
Thanks du!
It’s because the streets are paved with gold, didn’t you know? That America has more jobs than Mexico, that it is more salubrious than Darfur, the Thai-Cambodian border, Pinochet’s Chile or the Argentina of Jorge Videla is not much of an aspiration or accomplishment.
Individual Americans and many churches and communities, like hawk-eyed Iowans, can sometimes give you the shirts off their back and the food off their table, even when they haven’t enough for themselves. New Orleans in 2005 and Memphis right now are proof of that.
American foreign policy is, however, made up of more than Fulbright scholars and the 1950′s Marshall Plan. It is often the ugly monster in the foreigner’s living room. We use raw power to prevent people from talking about the abuses we deliver to promote what Marine Gen. Smedley Butler called the American “racket”. Many living in the Middle East, SE Asia, and Latin America know exactly what he was talking about.
Here’s the relevant part of the EO again. Can you specify the part that permits torture:
From the Harper’s article:
The fact is, I have yet to hear of, or see it reported one (1) case of substantiated allegations of torture by a detainee during the Obama administration that suggests the continued used of Bush era “Enhanced Interogation” or worse. There’s a reason why the agents of faux outrage keep harping on about Bradley Manning getting woken up in the middle of the night and that’s because there isn’t anything of substance to complain about.
Bring evidence next time. Don’t just post links, quote the part that alledges and substantiates confirmed acts of torture. Anything else is lazy and makes me do your work.
You stopped too soon on citing the executive order you linked:
Obama made the order apply only to the CIA, as you see in the language I quoted. That is the exemption for JSOC and any other government agency running secret prisons. And it’s not just me who interprets the order this way. See Scott Horton: http://www.harpers.org/archive/2011/04/hbc-90008048
Got anything else? Next time you read through an Executive Order, please pay more attention.
The (alledged) mistreatment of Manning (solitary confinment, insufficient time out of the cell, being woken up and asked if he’s ok if his head is covered, excessively being asked if he is ok in daytime, his cell is unsufficiently large) is trivially on another scale of magnitude to having water poured down your lungs 183 times, being strung up by ropes for hours at an end, not being allowed to sleep at all for days at an end, being put in a freezer and so on.
Only a person that have lost all sense of proportionality (case in point: Greenwald) would call both “torture” and try to equate the two.
Furthermore, Manning is detained and treated, within the established framework for detaining and treating suspects in the United States of America. There are laws and there remedies for the person being detained.
Manning’s got lawyers and if he is being mistreated they are free to go to the courts and have them determine if he was wronged. This is not true of any of the victims of Bush’s torture regime. Manning’s right to his day in court the system we have to ensure remedies if he was wronged, and justice for anyone who commited a crime against him.
Let him have his day in court.
Are you people capable of reading for comprehension?
“All” means all. “Not limited to” means exactly what it says.
Egg on your face, huh?
Point of order: I’m not interested in reading through endless pages of opinion by people who’s judgement I have no reason to trust. You are the person who is expected to exert quality control here. If you think Horton makes a good point, or has reported evidence that proves your case, it’s up to you to summarize it and write it down in the form of a coherent argument.
In addition, here’s what i wrote (myself, in the form of a coherent argument, supported by facts) in another comments thread here on FDL about the Manning case, in case you’re interested:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/05/08/the-msms-gift-to-moms-the-mushroom-cloud-brigade/#comment-285986
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/05/08/the-msms-gift-to-moms-the-mushroom-cloud-brigade/#comment-285997
Unfortunately, no one of the Manning-baggers were able to challenge any of my points there, but you’re free to jump in the fray and have a go if you like.
Hanging out here on FDL has been a sobering, yet dissapointing experience. I expect my fellow progressives to be more honest and fact-driven than the teabaggers and crazy christians, but much of what is published here conforms to a lower standard of proof than “death panels” and run of the mill conspiracy literature. Embarrassing.
Here’s an idea: Print out the nifty Executive Order, book the next flight to Afghanistan and present it to Vice Admiral Harward. Tell him he has to shut down all his private sites and bring his interrogation practices in line with your reading of the order. Then report back to us.
@Jim White
Time to summarize our little exchange then:
- You accused the Obama admin of planning to torture Bin Laden’s children with insects based on nothing whatsoever.
- When challenged, you boldly asserted that Obama’s executive order forbidding any use on torture in interogation “specifically exempted JSOC secret prisons”.
- When I showed you that that was wrong, you didnt apologize for saying things that aren’t true, and you had no comeback at all.
- I asked you to cite an instance of substantiated allegations of torture of detainees during the Obama administration, but you were not able to produce even one (1) instance.
- Instead of realizing that it’s wrong to fling baseless accusations at the president like poo, you implied that the US army practices unacceptable interogation practices in Afghanistan. And here we are.
Now, I can certainly entertain the thought that there have been one instance where interogation in Afghanistan did not conform to the EO. Maybe several. Maybe the Obama admin chose to look the other way. I have no idea, I’m not there and I haven’t witnessed what’s been going down.
But what reason do we have at this point to take your word for it?
You have proved your cluelessness and non-existing quality control on multiple occasions in the narrow context of this exchange between you and me. You show all the signs of being a fact-challenged hack and conspiracy-mongerer, frankly.
And now you are once again asserting things without bothering to do the work of researching, and clearly laying out your evidence – letting us judge if it is convincing – instead expecting us to once again do your homework.
You have zero credibility at this point. I’ll reject your accusations out of hand from now on, until you start making an effort at least.
“No. Not the same at all. Not even close.”
Yes I agree war is bad, but still it an American just saying that they and everyone that they know would be offended and pissed if anyone anywhere tortured children.
It was a pissing contest like your making it sound like. Its not about who can understand war, that wasnt even in the discussion.
We’ll let other readers decide if I’ve been untruthful. Several noted that I merely asked the question whether the US intended to torture OBL’s children like they did KSM’s.
Your lock-step defense of Obama is admirable, but is only based on the smoke and mirrors the Obama administration has used to define away all their problems. Make no mistake, the Obama Executive Order applies only to CIA secret sites and no handwaving or pointing to boilerplate language in other, irrelevant sections will make it apply as broadly as you wish. They did basically the same thing by redefining troops as noncombat to claim we got all combat troops out of Iraq.
It is not up to me to go back through my archive and find all the citations I have from numerous media sites including the NYTimes and Washington Post on mistreatment of prisoners in Afghanistan just because you insist I bring them out.
I’ve wasted far more time on you than you deserve, but it really gets me going when I see people falling for the lies that are being spread to say that the worst abuses of the Bush administration have been stopped under Obama’s. If they had really stopped the abuses, you’d be seeing lots of trials and lots of people going to jail. That’s not happening because they want to keep using a lot this stuff behind a veil of righteousness, and that makes me sick to my stomach.
Absolutely. It’s anyones prerogative to make up their own mind.
Sure. And now I’ll merely ask you this: “Can we expect you to molest your daugher tonight and will you in that case enjoy it?”
Because innocent questions do not need to be in any way justified – right? They’re just innocent questions.
“Lock-step defense of Obama” is supposed to function as a kind of ad-hominem here, right? I however consider it a virtue to defend the president – or any person – against the askers of “innocent” questions in the fine tradition of Glenn Beck and Alex Jones.
It’s trivially apparent that my long, well-researched, properly argued posts – high on logos and etos; low on patos – are anything but “smoke and mirrors”.
As noted, your credibility is already at zero. Let’s take note that you’re going right ahead and asserting what has been pointed out to you is in fact wrong.
Ignoring that, if you would pay attention, you would know that I have already quoted the relevant part of the Executive Order, here:
http://my.firedoglake.com/jimwhite/2011/05/09/did-the-us-intend-to-torture-bin-ladens-children/#comment-270493
It was in fact you who brought up the section that you are now calling “irrelevant” (although, in fairness, it really is quite relevant as well).
The language in the executive order have the full force of law so talking about “boilerplate” is wrong, and also – yet again – dishonest. Here are the relevant parts, yet again:
“All circumstances”, “whenever” and “all”, are – in stark contrast to being boilerplate – legal language, specifying inclusive categories to which the other language applies.
So, to summarize your objection, you’re saying that you don’t care about the executive order or what it says or if you have any clue what you’re talking about whatsoever, you’ll just go right ahead and make up your own reality.
Perhaps they did, but the pullout of Iraq is completely irrelevant to the issue of the legal language of executive orders. You can’t escape being wrong by changing the subject.
Yes it indeed is up to you to show that you can substantiate the things which you flatly assert, when challenged. Do you expect it to be up to someone else to prove you right? Do you expect your opinions to have the weight of fact by no other authority than that you said so?
If you have facts, bring them. If you don’t have facts to bring, shut up.
You have, so far, been 100% unable to bring even one (1) single piece of substantiated piece of information in support of your allegations, during our whole exchange. If you think you have, please point out where. You have yet to show one (1) instance where anything I said was wrong or there were evidence to the contrary.
I must say that given those facts, I admire your balls in having the nerve to feign righteous indignation.
This is indicative of your poor judgement. A good indication of if abuses have stopped is if we continue to see evidence of abuse, or if we don’t. That’s trivially reasonable.
That’s why I asked you to please share with the rest of us what you’ve read or seen that makes you believe torture is continuing uninterupted into the Obama administration from the Bush administration.
You can of course wank away, but until you are able to bring one single case for us to consider in support of your wanking, your words carry no weight whatsoever.
Humoring your hijack we may note that Obama did indeed issue an executive order to close Guantanamo and bring the detainees to court in the US, but his hands were eventually tied when congress voted to deny him funding to implement the order. The senate voted 90-8 against.
But that’s hardly Obama’s fault – blame the republicans who took to the media scaring the sh-t out of middle america with stories of terrorists breaking out of jail and going on rampages in middle america.
In any case it’s irrelevant to proving, or merely supporting, continued abuse of detainees. Which you have so far failed to do.
Valid questions Jim
Thanks for staying on top of it
sherwood May 9th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
That’s the problem, Mr. aeolistic one
Manning is a U.S. citizen on american soil with counsel. Are you suggesting that there is anything keeping him from filing torture charges against the U.S. government or the individuals involved?
My taciturn friend, I don’t know how you see it, but in my view the “progressive/liberal” tradition is rooted in the enlightenment era and it’s values. Those values include e.g. being interested in what the facts are, and supporting your views openly and transparently when you spread them around.
Of course, maybe I’m wrong and maybe being a “kewl radical tru progressive” entails hanging out at FDL, spouting unsupported nonsense (be it convential knowledge among ones peers), dropping fact-free one-liners that no one can call you on, and hating on the prez. Maybe it entails being “no ones fool” and consistently hating all authority, disregarding whether any particular authority is right or wrong.
Opinions differ, such is life.
Mohammed, I would like to thank you for having the courage to speak on your personal experiences. I wish that you would publish your story.
“Why would he be? Name me one good thing that America has done for his people or for him, just one.”
I have long believed that if America’s intentions were good, we would send humanitarians and not killers. Maybe build schools with, I don’t know, sanitation…rather than a blood empire.
Freedom From All:
When men come to your home and blow your children apart with cluster bombs, or burn them alive in font of your eyes you as a reasonable man will truly consider them evil. Two countries (Iraq, Vietnam) that did not attack us have lost millions of children due to our actions. Are all American responsible of this, Yes!
Dubhaltach:
Mohammed does not have to say a word: call Mary out into a open field and stack the dead bodies of our children next to the bodies of theirs. The contrast would be break our hearts and sut our mouths!
“I weep for what my country has become. We were never as great as we believed we were, but we were not what we have now become.”
gesneri:
dry your tears, we have always been what we are. Remember 150 years of human Slavery; followed by another 100 of Jim Crow?
Then there was that almost completely wiping out the natives thing?
In all of human history, America is the only country that can say, We used an Atomic Bomb in a city full of men women and children, twice!
I do not know what America in what parallel Universe you are referring to?
IsIs:
Correct me if I am wrong, but Nick Berg was in Iraq to suck up some of the US government contract money. A young man trying to make a buck of the war. That being said, this was no way for any human being to die! take the rage we both must have felt and multiply it by a thousand, then you might come close to what the people of Iraq feel. Keep in mind, Berg and all the rest of us same to their home, not the other way around.
With respect, instead of trying to change Mil’s use of “you”. Why not instead regulate your emotional reaction to this use? Why not all of us, recognize his emotion and validate it, instead of attempting to control the “way” he expresses it. This may seem a simple point, but this dynamic speaks exactly to the nuclear bomb of human conflict. Instead of validation, we try to control one and other over the “message”. We want validation for our truths, our pain, our shame and our despair. Many times these will be at juxtaposition. But if we instead focus on regulating our very personal reactions to someone else’s truth, look for the kernals of truth in what they say, “recognize” the emotion for what it is, validate the emotion, regulate our own feelings in regard to his truth…we might be able to find peace. This tiny example is full of nuance. I don’t mean to pick on Isis here, we all do this behavior. We try to “change” the other, instead of changing ourselves in reaction. This is the essence of conflict. It may seem small but the consequences are big, the emotions when invalidated grow and the very bottom line is that the truth will set us all free. None of us, have to fear the truth, it is uncomfortable to face, it’s painful, but if we regulate our response to it, instead of trying to control each other…we can be free.
Peace everyone.
No, not when ‘All Americans’ didnt have a choice in it.
You cant cry one day that these wars are ILLEGAL then blame ALL Americans for the ILLEGAL wars. I and many Americans OPPOSED these wars from the start and STILL oppose these ILLEGAL wars.
So put your blame in the correct place instead trying to make innocent people feel bad to psychologically get them on your side isnt going to bring anybody back to life. Maybe 2 or 3 people that I know think that Iraq and Afghanistan was the correct thing to do. And they are lowlifes at best. That means that about 99% of the people that I know want the US out of those countries.
Dont you fucking realize that your not alone? Or do you need to feel like your the only ones that fucking care? Thats what 90% of the people in this thread are doing acting like they are the only ones with compassion. Acting like if your not in their Anti-America corner then you are an evil fucking bastard.
This propaganda and these unproven stories are not going to make me hate my neighbors. So give it up.
Peace is never achieved by pointing fingers at your neighbors; peace instead is achieved by loving your neighbors.
Dont poke out an eye…