Check out this short piece from NBC on an Afghan orphanage:
Note that Afghanistan is referred to as a "dangerous" place with children "orphaned by war." But that’s OK, the subject of the piece is running a "happy place." Not only that, but she’s graciously being honored with some kind of award by the Washington establishment. Everybody gets to contribute to helping those poor, orphaned Afghans. Yay! And that’s it. 46 seconds. When originally broadcast, that snippet was followed up by several minutes of reporting on President Obama’s Nobel Prize donation to charity, because …he’s such a great guy and clearly more important?
But why is Afghanistan so dangerous? Why are all those children orphaned by war? What war? Didn’t the Washington establishment start that war? They’re giving awards to people who manage to round up all the surviving children from their bombing campaigns? If they had taken slightly longer than 46 seconds and provided the context to answer these questions, the whole affair would seem much more sickening and depraved, not something we should be happy about. Although it’s a lot more subtle than 2002, the media is still holding us back from having an honest debate on the wars we’re fighting.
This headline from the New York Times is instructive:
White House Weighs Talks With Taliban After Afghan Successes
It’s taken as fact that there have been "successes" in Afghanistan, and this story is just speculation on what might happen after those successes. There’s no discussion on whether or not you can count slaughtering more Afghan civilians than the Taliban as successfully protecting the population, or if installing a German expat who hasn’t been to Helmand in years is successful local governance, or even if capturing the moderate Taliban and radicalizing the remaining leadership will be successful at negotiating a withdrawal. Nope, just straight out "Afghan Successes" and what those successful war makers plan to do next.
We are forced into a position here of being for or against a successful war in Afghanistan. It’s never a good thing to be against something successful, so clearly the only rational choice is to be for the aggressive military violence against Afghanistan. How can you make a reasonable argument against the war when you’re trapped in the box of being against success? That’s not an honest debate.
Let’s look at another example, this time from an opinion piece by Michael O’Hanlon and Hassina Sherjon in the Washington Post. The only thing really honest in this piece is the headline, "Five myths about the war in Afghanistan," although technically O’Hanlon manages to propagate way more than just five myths.
1. Afghans always hate and defeat their invaders.
The Afghans drove the British Empire out of their country in the 19th century and did the same to the Soviet Union in the 20th century. They do fight fiercely; many American troops who have been deployed both in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years have asserted that the Afghans are stronger natural fighters.
Yet, the people of Afghanistan do not despise foreigners. Despite downward trends in recent years, Afghans are far more accepting of an international presence in their country than are Iraqis, for example, who typically gave the U.S. presence approval ratings of 15 to 30 percent in the early years of the war in that country. Average U.S. favorability ratings in recent surveys in Afghanistan are around 50 percent, and according to polls from ABC, the BBC and the International Republican Institute, about two-thirds of Afghans recognize that they still need foreign help.
So they debunk the racist myth that Afghans are xenophobic murder-machines (think "Graveyard of Empires") by immediately affirming its validity; American troops say Afghans are "stronger natural fighters" than Iraqis. Great, so not all Afghans are genetically pre-disposed to killing all foreigners, just more so than Iraqis. Even so, they continue, "the people of Afghanistan do not despise foreigners." Except for when they do. Got it.
But that last fragment there is probably the best example of how the American war debate operates. "About two-thirds of Afghans recognize that they still need foreign help," they write, which would seem to mean that we should continue on with our mission. But there’s a difference between "foreign help" and a massive influx of foreign combat troops, secret prisons, robotic airstrikes, vast base complexes, and scores and scores of dead civilians.
So either you’re for the aggressive war against Afghanistan and Pakistan, or you’re against those poor, America-loving Afghans who need foreign assistance, a full two thirds of the population by their count. Golly, I don’t want to be against two-thirds of Afghanistan, so I guess we have to support the war!
Why are we stuck in these binary choices? Surely the anti-war movement is offering more nuanced, reasonable arguments to the debate? Sadly, we’re not. As we discussed on Friday, the biggest policy move so far has been H.Con.Res. 248, a bill which simply called for the immediate removal of troops from Afghanistan. Your choice is to be completely against any involvement in Afghanistan, or being for the current war strategy.
There are legitimate concerns over Afghanistan that Americans want to address with policy; human rights, counter-terrorism, narco-trafficking, good governance, development and reconstruction. The proponents of the war say we ought to use aggressive military power to deal with that, and opponents have no better solutions to offer, so they fail. Unlike the war makers, who benefit greatly from confusing and deceptive arguments, the anti-war movement is actually harmed by putting forth such irrational, binary choices.
As we talked about last week, we have to do more than just be against the war. We have to expand the debate and allow for other solutions to be discussed besides just removing the troops. Obviously, the media is not going to be any help at all, so we’re going to have to pick up the slack ourselves and help craft an honest, open debate on what to do about the Afghanistan war.
How do we deal with counter-terrorism without foreign occupation? Perhaps we could expand FBI resources and enhance domestic security measures. How do we provide development and reconstruction aid to Afghans without military aggression? I can’t seem to Google up any stories about the Red Cross or the World Food Program accidentally blowing up 14 civilians with rockets. Maybe we could use more of them than our military?
These are just random suggestions, but it’s still more than offering the unfair choice of being against the war or being for it. We can answer the war makers’ arguments with better solutions than military violence, we just haven’t tried yet.
So drop me a line in the comments, and head over to Rethink Afghanistan’s Facebook page and join the debate there. Help us develop a reasonable alternative policy for dealing with Afghanistan so that we don’t have to be trapped in a dishonest, closed debate. Ending the war is a given, but how do we address the remaining issues in Afghanistan?
I am the Afghanistan Blogging Fellow for The Seminal and Brave New Foundation. You can read my work on The Seminal or at Rethink Afghanistan.



132 Comments




Nice post. It really shouldn’t be all in or all out on the war.
I do not agree with your analysis because we violated international law when we attacked and invaded Afghanistan. Arguments regarding how we should be conducting our unlawful occupation are irrelevant. The only legitimate subject for discussion is: What is the quickest, most efficient, and effective method to withdraw all US troops from Afghanistan?
After we answer that question, we should discuss reparations.
The discussions you suggest would be a waste of time and deflect attention from holding our government accountable from its unlawful behavior.
“Although it’s a lot more subtle than 2002, the media is still holding us back from having an honest debate on the wars we’re fighting.” ; one large reason that the public turned against the Vietnam war was the images coming from it.
Since the Pentagon is now in charge of reporting re the war, most American’s don’t see the horrific-ness of it and therefore aren’t mobilized against it.
We tried that method, and it got 65 votes in a 435-member body that is dominated by the progressive/liberal political party. The all in or all out strategy is a failure. Yes, ending the military aggression is part of the plan, but that doesn’t satisfy any of the other concerns Americans might have with Afghanistan, including human rights and international law. The in-or-out strategy is simply not politically viable, period.
We can be against the war in Afghanistan as passionately and blindly as we want, but that means nothing if we can’t actually end it.
Yes, great piece. It’s like the discussion that happens often around women and Afghanistan. Pro-war says we should stay because women need our protection. But folks on the ground say the best thing that could happen to women would be to, you know, not be living in a war zone.
we’ve been in Afghanistan for how long now?
I didn’t even get a t-shirt.
what a gyp.
In TX where the death penalty rules, there is a bumper sticker that says something like “Loving one’s neighbors doesn’t mean killing them.” Could we get that same message out on a larger canvas….I heard the vicious Laura Ingraham supporting the troops today rebutting the idea that there is any wanton killing…I guess she forgot about the contractors. Where is the speak up?
I’d be apprecitive if someone could provide info about how that ever worked, because I haven’t found it yet. Marshall Plan doesn’t count, as Afghanistan is not in the same stage of civil development as Germany.
Will firedoglake’s center-right “Afghanistan blogger” ever get anything right?
And even assuming that the answer is “no,” he could at least refrain from shooting off his mouth about monstrous problems which he hasn’t bothered to think about for a second.
Josh Mull’s fantastic ignorance is really an insult to the abominable suffering of the Afghan people.
“All the surviving children!”
In a story about an orphanage with 150 orphans in it!
There are more than 2,000,000 orphans in Afghanistan!
Surprised?
You won’t read about them in the mainstream media, or in a blog by firedoglakle’s designated center-right “Afghanistan blogger.”
“The Herald of Scotland, however, may have credible proof that a US-led attack on Iran approaches and could be just days away. The newspaper has procured proof of an arms shipment to Diego Garcia, which consists of “of 195 smart, guided, Blu-110 bombs and 192 massive 2000lb Blu-117 bombs…put in place for an assault on Iran’s controversial nuclear facilities.” Additional insight comes from Dan Plesch, director of the Centre for International Studies and Diplomacy at the University of London: “They are gearing up totally for the destruction of Iran. US bombers are ready today to destroy 10,000 targets in Iran in a few hours.”
Here’s the thing. Late last fall Obama forced the military brass to sign off on something we don’t yet know, but protects him against military blackmail in the likely event we are defeated in Afghanistan. We may not be out by 2012, but the writing will be clear on the wall by then. The political trick is to make the American people think that we have achieved honorable ends, which is how Obama has managed the end-game of the fiasco in Iraq. The key was always boxing in the military so they would not do a Hindenburg manoeuver on him.
One reason we are where we are with respect to our foreign policy is that we have not had a good popular military history of the Vietnam War, where we were beat on the ground fair and square. To be sure, we could have bombed the Red river dams in the north and drowned several million people, but it would have seemed like cheating, just like dropping a nuclear weapon on defenseless people.
Link?
No, no no and just… no.
I’ve had enough of our “solutions.” And our hubris, expressed as “national security.”
No.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/final-destination-iran-1.1013151
Bull puckey, I disagree with your message.
All out on the war.
As far as to how to help others develop and improve their lots in life?
You pay the local bosses enough money to let the people develop.
Because the local bosses, regional bosses, they WANT the people undeveloped, it’s easier to control!!
So, changing shit in other countries is really hard . . . unfortunately, the US has BOUGHT off the bosses in ways that are NOT beneficial to the people the bosses own and control.
So, bad policy on our part, and major fails since WW2 and Marshall Plan, eh?
But the good policy costs more, and there’s less profiteering for ‘The Beast’ that needs to be fed, the corporate oligarchy, the 1%, the MIC, etc.
To change all that?
Huge, and major shift in the being of this country.
Not in MY lifetime, I don’t think.
However, our utter and complete collapse due to bad policy, foreign and domestic?
Very likely in the 20-30 years I have left on this rock.
I’m not sure I’ll weep, even if my passing is hastened by those bad policies (I’m pretty sure it will be, heatlhcare wise).
And that’s MY bitter satisfaction, to know it will likely fail. One way or another.
It will surely fail YOUR way, of that I’ve no doubt . . . *G*
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/us-preparing-total-destruction-iran
Mr. Mull, btw, great post, ideas and thoughts to kick around.
To change any of what you discuss would be to radically change and alter this country in ways that just aren’t possible at this time without great disruption in the social, political and financial fabric.
And that may be coming BECAUSE of the policies you discuss.
Would love to chat with you about post WW2 world politics/policies and especially history of SE Asia and European Influences and how USA got entangled chasing rubber plantations and trading routes off shore post Dien Bien Phu.
*G*
Please do yourself a favor and re-watch all the available video out there from the day of 11th September, 2001. No, not the mainstream-media soft-peddled make-nice censored clips, with all the blood taken out. I want you to see people jumping out of buildings, from 100 floors. See their bodies fall and smash on cars, arms, legs, feet, broken off and laying in the street.
I heard secondhand only, from someone I knew was there, that they saw smashed bodies without heads on the ground, and when the buildings were coming down in the thick black ash that whooshed all around them, the leg and part of the mid-section of a man fly through the air. They knew it was a man’s leg because….
you might want to crank of the volume and hear the screams, and the flames. The people in the towers that survived, saw the floor where one of the planes hit- and the bodies of all the passengers, luggage, and everything pieces of airplane smashed all crammed into the floor of an office building. Imagine what that looks like. And sounds. And smells. Imagine the gasps, groans, and desperate screams as people protested with shrieks as their broken bodies gave out on them. This was the worst day in the history of the world. Worse than Pearl Harbor.
So, when some liberal, “weak” politician like Barack Obama tries to sell you some orphan story, or hero story, or any story on why we should be there; think about WHY WE’RE REALLY THERE. They attacked us. So in light of what has happend, I think what we’re doing in Afghanistan is quite humane. Take a look at the last two countries who attacked us, back in the 1940s, to see what it could have been. Look at some pictures of Dresden, Berlin, Tokyo, Nagasaki, and Hiroshima, and see what we were justified in doing then. And consider now. I don’t support most wars. But this one is important. Stop this pathetic whining. Think of the thousands who have died.
Funny how those who turn death around and around, looking at it like a pretty jewel, are so into avenging it.
Oh yeah – more death.
Hmmmm . . . well, there IS that awful truth to deal with also, I agree . . . . boldly and factually spoken.
I’d like to add Halliburton, Cheney, oil, gas, pipelines, drugs, distribution routes, Reagan/BinLaden/Mujahadeen/Bush Family (Reagan’s VP), MIC, corporate oligarchy, corporate ownership of our elected officials (facism) and more, though.
But your’s is a good start . . . *G*
That’s the entire purpose of corporate media – to control thought in support of the existing power structure.
I like “horse hockey”, so we’ll disagree on that also.
We’re not getting out of the area right away, and the world isn’t going to be transformed this year, Larue.
Might be nice if we woke up and it was all different, but till then it’s gonna haveta be incrementalism, unsatisfying and sad as it is.
Thanks.
Thanks. My money manager is developing a strategy for reacting to same. It’s all abuzz in the oil investing sphere.
Just what did the governments, much less the people, of Afghanistan, Iraq or Iran have to do with the suicide crashes of airplanes into these buildings in the US?? Nada!!
None of the perpetrators were even citizens of any of those countries, much less representatives of their governments.
What makes you think that incrementalism is a winning strategy?
Mr. Mull, you combine two things that are not alike.
What the people want is different from what the corporate oligarchy forces on us, or dictates to our elected officials.
The political votes are NEVER going to be there for anything that does not benefit the corporate oligarchy.
The political votes are NEVER going to be there for we the people unless there are bodies in the streets, I believe the 50′s/60′s/70′s struggles for civil and women’s rights and antiwar issues are proof enough of that.
So you really should separate political votes in the elected halls from what’s really the WILL OF THE PEOPLE, or the unfullfilled will of the people.
So, let’s talk about the unfullfilled will of the people who are antiwar and don’t stand a chance of seeing our will enacted? How do we engage in the issues YOU raise, if our will is crushed already, thru the political system?
Conundrum, eh?
Even though the military of both Japan and Germany did attack and declare war on the US the indiscriminate bombing of their cities including with nuclear weapons were war crimes. The US was not charged simply because we won.
We can’t impose our ‘we the people’s will’ on Afghan or Pakistan or Muslim countries to empower women much more than we the people can impose our antiwar will on the corporate oligarchy.
As you point out, THEIR will is quite different from what our corporate oligarchy wants, or what we the people would like to see . . . . it’s not our issue, it’s not our fight, it’s not for us to decide any of that shit.
We either intrude with money and development based on THEIR rules, or we stay out.
Simple.
We can’t save the planet. Hell, we can’t even save this country at this point, because of the corporate oligarchy, because of imperialism and ethnocentrism on the part of our corporate oligarchy and a greatly ignorant citizenry.
Just sayin. Love your comment, though, really. You get it . . . I know you do . . . not bad for a young kid. *G*
Since the 80′s, if not earlier.
Shockin, no?
Get a life. I was in Manhattan on 9/11. What the U.S. has done to destroy the world is completely disproportionate to the 3,000 lives lost on 9/11.
Yep.
I didn’t want to respond to that foo’, but “Get a life?” That works for me.
We’ve GOT to stop agreeing about things lately, E . . . I get too optimistic thinking there’s a LOT of us!!! *G* ;-)
I read something about you writing about The Fed . . . did I miss something? If so, can you point me the way?
So, you think we should have made a series amphibious landings on the islands of Japan?
My experience as a Manhattanite, within spitting distance of 4 or 5 terrorist targets, is that the farther you get from real danger, the more paranoid you get. Really. Crossing the street in Manhattan is objectively more dangerous than terrorism.
LInky? Dates of publishing?
Something besides your comment, which is pure doom and gloom light fantastic?
You using shock shit on Pups? Why?
Here.
Proof? Linky’s?
I don’t doubt it much, but . . . . . this IS The Lake, and Reasoned Discourse.
Man, those bombs were a message to the nascent Soviet. Don’t buy the distractions.
You weren’t there but you’ve got all the images and sounds hard wired into your brain.
Oh, by the way, Afghanistan didn’t attack us, some thugs that hung out there did. Some good police work and special forces ops could have avoided all this.
How many Afghans have to die to quench your thirst for blood? I’ll bet that imagination gives you some humdinger dreams.
Fuck Nato. Get out of there and stop the killing. The control over the gas pipeline and the geo strategic location for a potential attack on Iran is all that our presence there is about. USG doesn’t even care about it’s own citizens, let alone some brown skinned infidels.
Or negotiate a settlement. FDR claimed no compromise, total victory. But instead (intelligently) allowed the emperor of Japan to retain power. If the U.S. had agreed to that in advance of nuking Japan … instead of afterwards, fewer innocent lives would have been lost and the U.S. might have retained its moral authority.
I furnished one upstairs, Here again:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/final-destination-iran-1.1013151
I didn’t realize ending WW II was a distraction.
FDR? He was dead before we nuked Japan.
The a-bomb was the distraction, which had little to do with the end of WWII.
Thanks.
I can’t believe anyone is really seriously considering bombing Iran.
Blowback will send the planet into the middle ages, if it don’t kill us all when China/Russia let loose.
I have to differ – it had everything to do with ending the war.
This don’t deserve my response, but hell, I’m aggravated today in general so here goes.
Your message is absurd, insane and misleading.
Given this event was likely a part of PNAC planning and strategy and enabling, WITH the aid and abetting of the Israeli’s Mossad/Likud, your message about the gore and all becomes even MORE misaligned and misinforming.
Your message sucks.
Allow a less truncated explanation. FDR policy was total victory, which seems to have prolonged the war, since negotiation might have ended it sooner. WRT Japan, the issue of U.S. total victory was the position of the emperor. Not sure who in the D administration, Truman or a minion, was responsible for foregoing the FDR total victory meme, and allowed the emporer to retain power. Had something to do with with Ruth Benedict’s work for the USG. Had the USG paid attention to that before the nuking, …
What eCAHNomics said @48. Though what I meant was, the popular cover story that we would have had to “[make] a series [of] amphibious landings on the islands of Japan,” if we didn’t “drop the big one,” was a distraction.
(In the hopes that we are not just having a me vs. you kind of conversation, and also not interested in re-gaming WWII here. We have some contemporary fish to fry, and there are a bunch of war-porn docu’s out there for those who are so inclined.)
Dammit Petro, took me a whole paragraph to say that . . . ;-)
Nagasaki was bombed August 9th. The Japanese surrendered August 14th.
Probably just a coincidence. Anyway, who would want to believe a damn word that old BS’er HST had to say.
eCahn is quite correct. The atrocity was merely a message to the USSR.
Your version is the one in U.S. textbooks. But you might investigate other versions before being so doctinaire. Or if you already have, plz provide links that refute the alternate versions. Thanks.
Your last line is spot on, but I’m talking about what I want, not what is.
I likely have MUCH less hope for any change than I comment about.’
Sadly, my final bitter smugness comes from knowing the present sitch is unsustainable and will likely collapse upon itself MUCH sooner than any positive changes come about, unless the entire planet reverses course immediately.
OUR nation is gonna collapse, end of story, and likely before my final 20-30 years are done (I’d be 87 in 30 years).
And by doing Iran, we are likely to see a HUGE collapse globally, in many ways, the minute the first one drops there.
AF/PAK and our corporate oligarchy will surely doom us as well, even if it takes a bit longer.
Why, thank you.
I am hardly being rude or anything. I stated an opinion. You and fuckno seem to think you are the absolutely authority on the subject so have at it. I don’t care. I remember the entire thing very well.
Shit, that ain’t good.
The financial markets are paying attention to this?
Damn . . . or is it yet another false flag to manipulate trading and pricings?
With phantom stock, and short and naked selling to bust some company(s) and generate HUGE returns for investors? A privileged few investors?
Because, from what we’ve all read over the past few years, bombing Iran is insane!!!!!!
The q is not when the Japanese surrendered, but whether there was an alternative path to Japanese surrender which was credible. And there was an alternative path. Since we’re talking about counterfactuals, we’ll never know. But you can’t dismiss the alternative scenario as garbage, since the eventual outcome, Japanese emperor retains power, is exactly what would have resulted in a negotiated compromise before the U.S. nuked Japan.
you think you remember the entire thing very well, what you in fact remember is standard State propaganda.
I was alive at the time. Didn’t get anything from books or in school.
Talking Points, always refuted by Pups, thanks TS for another refutation of the insane, absurd, and incoherent.
Since I asked you for references, that hardly seems evidence that I think I’m an authority.
Wish I had said that . . . yet another dismemberment of bs talking points and misinformed insights.
ah, but for wikipedia…
“The 1946 United States Strategic Bombing Survey, written by Paul Nitze, concluded that the atomic bombs had been unnecessary to the winning of the war. After reviewing numerous documents, and interviewing hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, Nitze reported:
Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.[…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
What power did the emperor really maintain?
so where do you think you got it from, – the news if the penultimate crime against humanity?
“Other U.S. military officers who disagreed with the necessity of the bombings include General of the Army Douglas MacArthur,[75][76] Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy (the Chief of Staff to the President), Brigadier General Carter Clarke (the military intelligence officer who prepared intercepted Japanese cables for U.S. officials),[74] and Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet.[77]
“The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.” Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet.[67]
“The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons… The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.” Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.[78]“
You watch too much War History Channel.
We could have waited, laid back and done nothing and Hirahito would have surrendered quickly.
He held out for things and the USA wanted to desperately try out it’s new weapon to teach Russia a lesson about post war alignments.
Tactic to keep in mind: don’t state opinions; ask qs.
Excellent blog. Thanks.
Will you please read what I wrote? I didn’t say it was necessary. I said it had everything to do with ending the war. There was no more fight left in the Japanese after the bombing. They were simply defeated.
Wow. The warmonger Nitze wrote that? Simply amazing.
Thanks, yeah, saw mac and other’s with the links, sorry FNo . . . that’s just a horrid story, portends horrible outcomes.
I gotta question why it was written, how it was leaked (cuz we KNOW there’s no real journalism anymore, the real one’s die in pursuit of stories like this).
Stories like this are just not allowed to be publishes/aired without a reason for propaganda purpose or manipulation purpose.
I’m reminded quickly of Minot AFB missing nukes, the Israeli strike on a supposed Syrian nuke site, and all that came and went along those two stories a few years ago. Lots of behind the scenes shit we never really found out as to WHY it happened, if it happened, or who was to blame for the event, much LESS who’s to blame or praise for the info leaking out into the MSM, for what short story lives they had.
Hope you read the Benefict link. As I understand it, the U.S. coopted the emperor’s authoritarian position to overtake the Japanese society. Emperor was regarded as divine, and had the U.S. not allowed that myth to stand, who knows what would have happened in Japan.
Heh, I owe ya some 20 year old scotch, hoss, you EPU’d me! Or me you, but I’m the ower, yer the oweee!!!!
Damn, I owe you too, and your version is shorter and quicker to the point than mine was.
Ummmm . . . . Glenlivich, 25 Yr Barrel?
Yeah, I guess I owe YOU a drink to . . . my bad . . . brutal read though, is it real, ya think? Any of it?
Oh, puleese. An’ thank u very much.
Do not threaten me with scotch. Stop. Don’t. Stop. Don’t Stop. ;)
watertiger is upstairs!
Late Night: Yes, Virginia, There is a Sanity Clause
I . . . ahhh never mind . . . have a nice life.
Some day in the land of where-ever-the-Hell-we-land-after-we-get-the-fuck-outa-this-rathole, someone will call Bush 43 the Bestest Preznit evah.
And you guys will reply, ‘Balderdash, ass-wipe! I was alive, lived through it.”
That’s the US Purity line, hoss . . . we cold have ended the war without the nukes, and hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dead Japanese civiies, and those who died in the decades following from radiation.
That’s the point. The war was over, it could have been ended, the surrender was on the table, and FDR pushed it away (given, the Generals and Pentagon and War Machine wanted to drop them for leverage on Russia).
But the war was over.
Thanks (smiles)
Proven in such a large body of intellectual work and analysis since, aside from MSM movie/pseudo doc making, and doctored history books we grew up with in the 50′s and ever since.
Truth will NOT be forsaken! Not on my watch . . . lol
FDR was DEAD ! I’m not a hoss – I’m a hossette. And I was there. I remember it all ’cause I’m old.
No offense, you run the proscribed generic version down, FNo, E, and I and others run down what we’ve read as alternative histories writ and described by those there, who owe no allegiance to the MIC, the government treated fantasy that’s in the public education texts we were raised on in the 50′s and 60′s.
When I hit high school at 15 in ’68, I was already being introduced to sourced texts and sources that told a different story than we were fed in grade school.
And that LOAD of increased reality versions of WW2 and life in general increases daily now that we have the internets. It increased for me BEFORE the internets, in junior college in college, in the library.
Where there were more sources than the MSM our USA Flag Waving Corporate Fucks shoved at us.
No offense. Thought you were more progressive than your point on this issue.
However, I don’t agree that war can ever have a positive effect. War is religion by other means. (No, I’m not quoting Carl von Clausewitz.)
You were alive in ’45? How old were you? What were your sources of information that shaped your beliefs at WHAT age then?????
This message to the Soviets is a bunch of revisionist hooey.
It is damn funny that the guy who actually made the decison, Harry Truman, reknowned as a straight talker, never mentioned this at the time or at any time thereafter.
Apparently you didn’t read what I said either. I said the bombing had everything to do with ending the war. It did. I didn’t say that it was a good thing or necessary. I can assure you that I am about as liberal as anyone you know. There are times when I feel as if it would be easier to just not comment at this place because people read what they want to into it and take your head off. I’m really sick of it.
Geebuz, ok, I’ll bite . .
The effin power to rule his people, lead them, and get them to fall in line with the Marshall Plan that lifted them out of hell as best as possible, as opposed to continuing to believe the previous Emporer Issued Doctrine that dying for The Empire was preferable to acceding to the will of the invading hordes.
That alone saved USA a complete and utter insurrection and house to house fight on the MAINLAND!!!!
And we could have had that, without the scarred flesh, atomized ashes and seared eyes and bodies of the dead and mortally afflicted of hundreds of thousands of humans.
But that’s hard, Master . . . . and I’m bit too old and set in my ways NOT to call shit for what it is, and state the reality as I see it.
I do think I’m better lately, though . . . . ;-)
Larue, will you take something on faith?
You are out of your depth here.
I am not kidding.
They were beat . . . aggggghhhhh never mind, this is Oldgold turf again . . . I got nuttin.
I am 76. Back then we did not have tv, of course, but people talked of nothing but the war. We had radio and newspapers and the news before every movie (called newsreels). And there was no coverup going on. The news organizations had people on the ground and you saw what they saw.
I disagree, but I wasn’t born until ’57, so I’ll let it rest (others might not :).
Ah, the “straight talker,” who created the greatest government lip-zip in all of modern history. That Truman.
No, that isn’t what happened.
http://asianhistory.about.com/od/governmentandlaw/a/JapaneseEmp.htm
I’m really tired of this. I don’t think I have ever agreed with OldGold on anything and I resent your remark.
Yes, that would be him. But, signing the national Security Act of 1947 that transformed the OSS into the CIA, hardly makes Truman responsible for the mistakes made by the CIA in the decades that followed.
Ha!
True (and it was a cheap shot anyway, my apologies.)
We respectfully disagree, I see, and that’s good enough for me. Peace to you and yours, sir.
i already know that you are prone to take State generated propaganda as gospel truth.
You have as much right to your opinion as I have to mine. That’s fine. I just resented the implication that my opinion belonged to someone else when I am perfectly capable of thinking to myself.
That is false. Before I was distracted by the revisionist hooey concerning the end of WWII, I was going to agree that Obama’s policy in Afghanisan is an abomination.
His Wiki, Nitze
~~~ModNote: link repaired.~~~
Um, not sure what you mean depth here . . . .
I know my history . . . I know what shaped generations information wise and media wise going back a long ways.
Bingo.
Ok, you and E are making life harder on me than I really want it to be.
Shut up and sip????
*G*
Sorry about the gender thing, my bad. Twain is Mark to me, male. Never knew.
So, you were um, 13. Ok, formative years, MINE certainly were.
At that time, there was precious little than US propaganda available about the doing’s of WW2 and our nuking of Japan. The ONE reporter I recall reading about (I forget his name) who took film of the aftermath had his film taken, and was sequestered, and lectured and told what he did not see or could not tell.
He was silenced.
To end this, I appreciate what you went thru, what you know, and how you share it with us.
My mother was born in ’23, my father in ’18. He served in South Africa, and Sicily. He saw our own US forces take out our own invading airborne force in the invasion of Sicily, some thing that’s not often talked about in texts, in schools.
My father served our State Department, and I grew up overseas from ’53-’62, and learnt a LOT later about our efforts in SE Asia, as a country, as an empire.
My mom and dad raised us to question authority, although they were tempered about it. They questioned a LOT about our country, including the nuking of Japan. Twice.
So you can see, why I feel and believe the way I do, beyond what I’ve read, learned, since I was in high school.
Beyond the scope of what you grew up being told.
I hope you can see that.
Cuz I learned it from people who were older than you are.
One vote in the House and you call the demand for withdrawal a “failure”!? Huh?
The Afghanistan issue cannot be separated from a look at the nature of U.S. militarism and the place of the United States in a world community. The Afghanistan war is part of an empire-building policy by the United States, one that must lean, by necessity, very hard upon the military and intelligence apparatuses.
A real peace movement in the United States would stand for a roll-back of the U.S. military presence in the world, as it is destabilizing, and treads upon the national rights of a myriad of other people. Of course, this is a utopian demand, and one that will not begin to be implemented, until such time as the United States, tottering financially over its incapacity to truly run the world, and pinpricked to death by too many insurgencies, and rotten treaties with too many internecine enemies (watch the dance, for instance, between the Kurds, Turks, and Iraqis over Kirkuk), the entire edifice starts to fall.
But the fact that is not yet the time we live in (though possibly closer than we think), should not stop us for saying the truth, and demanding what is fair and appropriate. No real democracy will be brought to Afghanistan on the bayonets of the U.S. armed forces. The deals already made with warlords and mass murderers like Dostum assure us of that.
I don’t know what it is you really want to happen, or believe can happen in Afghanistan. Framing this as a counter-terrorism issue only plays into the hands of the CIA, Cheney, and the right-wing militarists. Bands of “terrorists” don’t hold out this long against major military and counterinsurgency operations. This is about a brutal military occupation, and the sooner the U.S. pulls out, the better. Even RAWA, a long-time women’s association in Afghanistan opposes the U.S. presence (and they are and always have been anti-Taliban, anti-fundamentalist).
would you also agree that the Pacific campaign was also at least in part based on a provocation? The US tends to be very good at that.
edit: by provocation I am not referring to Pearl.
Well, I’m sippin’, that’s for sure. Which is a good argument for shutting up, come to think of it. ;)
Time to watch a cheap thriller – “Firewall” w/Harrison Ford has been knocking around my hard drive for awhile…
The bombing was unnecessary, whether it ended the war one day or one month is not relevant to the morality of the bombing. And the war was over. It was over. We disagree on how it was over, and that’s a puny point to make given the hundreds of thousands of civilians who died from our own hands.
Hat off, Larue!
I wasn’t TOLD anything. Do you not understand that I lived it. I saw the pictures, read the newspapers, listened to the radio. You must think I’m an idiot but I assure you that I am not. Your attitude is insulting and childish because you can’t stand the idea that someone might actually have information.
Yes.
Ah, bless ya Lurkin Mid, I was just lookin back to see that, and fix it and apologize . . .
*bows*
I don’t enjoy it sometimes, I guess this one, with Twain, was not enjoyable.
I hope you read my #115, I’m MUCH more comfortable with that comment.
I’ve upset Twain, and she’s questioning why she comments here to get beat up . . . I have to consider that.
I’m not happy with being right, I guess, she’s not the enemy anymore than any Pup is.
Norske would not be happy I fired off in my own foxhole.
Twain, sorry I pounded my opinion over and over on ya . . .
I’ll try and live and let live a bit more in the future, as Petro so shows and does . . . he’s much better at it than I.
Twain, you have had such EXCELLENT comments since I’ve been reading FDL, that I do owe you an apology, regardless of POV, right or wrong . . . I’ll hope you’ll continue to share what you know and have lived thru with us all, and I’ll try and not be critical of your sharing of story . . .
And that’s why I feel so bad, I stepped on your sharing of story . . . I know better than to do that.
The sharing of story, especially from those older than I, is kinda sacred ground for me, it was what my pops and moms taught me and I violated my own screeds about this thing.
For that, I am truly regretful.
I wasn’t refering to the Twain spat, just to Larue’s humanism. “And the war was over. It was over.”
I was a teenager in 1945. My recollection is the young folks were pretty filled with blood lust and dehumanization of the Germans and Japanese. Look at some of the comic books and movie cartoons of the day. Even they were conducting war. My school yearbook was called Wings over Wilson and had a big bomber on the front cover. As far as I recall ordinary people only heard war propaganda, just the kind Reagan used to blather calling it history. Strangely we never heard any intimation of the Holocaust until VE Day or shortly before. On reflection and in subsequent years I became convinced my parents both opposed WWII but I never had a hint of it as a child and teenager.
When the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki we believed that they did end the war. The nature of the weapons was incomprehensible and I recall the government accusing the Japanese of lying about how horrid the injuries were and in particular lying about the danger of fallout..
I was glad the war ended and thought we were pure and virtuous.
Then I read John Hersey’s book, with photos, Hiroshima and began to question. I have off and on throughout my life sought out the truths and though disillusioned;.because of the torture and abandonment of any pretense at preserving civil liberties, I now believe our nation is on the edge of becoming an evil rogue.state.
TalkingStick,
this is a little gem of a post, thanks!
Re. some more truths: here’s a takedown of a young conservative mind embodying the evil in which all of us participate, by Chomsky:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV7UYj-4mTE
Maybe, looking at the comments, you could start by a little history lesson, and the fact that the U.S. didn’t start the war there, there was a war there before September 2001, and that the refugees and orphans are not all from American bombing runs. Apparently, your readership is unaware of that.
The two organizations you mentioned, the ICRC and the UNWFP, have both been there since the 1970s. There’s a reason for that. Both (ICRC and U.N.) support a peace operation in Afghanistan. There’s a reason for that, too.
You are absolutely right we don’t need an all-military strategy, and we don’t need the secret prisons, vast military complexes, and dead civilians. But there is a security need there. The ANP is widely hated, as it should be, it’s the wrong thing to do anywhere. Do we have a national police force in this country? The U.N. elsewhere imports both peacekeeping troops and blue beret police, who do real local police training, not three week contractor paramilitary courses. Real development, run through local institutions is also necessary for peace. And a lot more.
I don’t sign on to any immediate withdrawal agendas, but I do sign on to a genuine effort to create peace in Afghanistan, and I do sign on to fulfilling our pledge of a Marshall Plan for the region. I do sign on to abandoning the vindictive terrorist hunt and the various versions of enforced disappearance and prison planet scenarios. I do sign on to a plan that isn’t contorted to fit an all military agenda, to the point that the U.N. issues warnings about development being co-opted.
Immediate withdrawal isn’t peace, so why would I support it? You are absolutely right. You need to broaden your base and talk reality. Thank you for doing so.
Has anyone in the US asked the Afghans what they want? I doubt it. We have absolutely no moral standing to decide anything other than to listen to the local population, and they want to be finally left alone.
We signed a document on December 5, 2001, along with other nations and Afghans. It was subsequently ratified by loya jirga in Afghanistan. It ended the Afghan Civil War, and put the U.N. in charge, through Afghan ministers in an interim government, of redevelopment, and established the ISAF as a peace keeping/peace enforcing force. There have been subsequent “donor’s conferences”, reaffirming the development plans and making changes to them, and raising money, held nearly every year since.
Have you asked the Afghans what they want? Does your decision, were we to take it, to just immediately withdraw and leave the area alone, leave the area in peace? Does it do anything about the 3.5 million refugees or the .8 million IDPs? How about the land mines? What about agricultural sufficiency, does it provide any food? Does it rebuild anything destroyed by the war? You have no moral standing for saying these things are unimportant.
First of all, can I just say that the way every war debate devolves into a WWII rehash is completely exhausting. People can’t discuss it rationally and it quickly slides into dueling counter-factual. Can we stop this, please? Can we please for just a few minutes spend time focused like a laser on the war we’re in at the moment that is not even analogous in a major way to a war fought half a century ago between several major powers? (and yes, I realize I’ve been guilty of this in the past)
I agree with Josh that we anti-Afghanistan-war folks have to regain some measure of control of the debate. Since Obama’s second decision to send more troops to Afghanistan in 2009, and certainly since the launch of the Marjah operation, the debate over the fundamental assumptions has largely ceased, as if the president’s decision in favor of a COIN strategy settled the matter. Now most coverage is just keeping score. But the three main questions have been pushed off stage, and need to be brought back on stage:
1) Is what we’re doing morally justified?
2) Can we afford it?
3) Is the current policy making us more or less safe?
Josh is also dead on that what matters in Congress is whether our allies have a plan within their legislative activity to end the war. If Kucinich’s bill was part of a thought-out plan to shut this war down, fine. Maybe they’re playing very close to the vest, but I don’t see that plan. I don’t see them talking about the plan. If the idea is to just “trigger debate,” well hell, he and his friends better start lining up those special order speeches and dominating C-SPAN like Dems did vs. the Iraq war. But you have to plan all the way to the end, not just repeatedly throw things against the wall just to see if some stuck.
Yes, we picked up several votes. Yes, that will be useful in whipping vs. the supplemental to an extent (though not hardly as useful as some think…there is a hair to be split between voting to change a policy and, cough, “voting against funding for the troops while they’re in harm’s way”). But none of these things touch on the large bloc of members that will have to be coerced through smart strategy. Our progressives have missed all sorts of opportunities to leverage things like Blue Dog ag bill needs, etc. Unless they get it together, this bill was a feel-good exercise that gets us only a few steps away from nowhere.
I haven’t really been specific about my political leanings, but just so we’re clear, the very best thing that could possibly happen with the Afghanistan war debate is if my position is considered “center-right.” That would be a massive victory for moving the political spectrum, and a clear indication that this country is moving away from its aggressive military policies. Thank you very much for the encouragement, Jacob.