I am the Afghanistan Blogging Fellow for Brave New Foundation. You can read my work on Firedoglake or at Rethink Afghanistan. The views expressed below are my own.
Wikileaks is under attack!
Journalists and politicians are calling for the criminalization of Wikileaks, or worse, the assassination of its members. The US government is coercing companies into blocking access to Wikileaks, and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who is normally very strong on internet freedom, has been forced to “evolve” her positions.
If you’re a supporter of Wikileaks, or even a relatively dispassionate observer, you likely find these actions to be offensive, or even downright criminal. How dare the US move so arrogantly, so aggressively, against Wikileaks for what seems to be nothing more than the second coming of the Pentagon Papers? We believe in free speech, in transparency and accountability for our government. It’s outrageous that Washington would move so decisively to crush a project like Wikileaks.
But are Wikileaks’ supporters actually feeding this response from the government? In our rush to rationalize and defend Wikileaks and their actions, have we inadvertently opened the door to attacks by the US government?
The answer can be found in how we’ve chosen to frame the debate so far.
My friend Bob Morris has been studying the writings of Julian Assange closely, and he writes this of Assange’s motives:
I also think there are whole levels here we aren’t seeing, including what Assange is doing. It is however, a classic example of asymmetrical warfare, where a tiny player has huge impact against a state power. [...]
[Assange's] writings clearly show he thinks all governments are corrupt which by most any criteria makes him an anarchist, and the digital equivalent of a bomb-thrower.
Why is Wikileaks only publishing a mere sixteen cables a day when they have 250,000+? Who is choosing them and what criteria is used? Why did Assange announce in advance he has info that could take down major banks? Because that’s just begging for retaliation both from banks and the federal government. Why not just publish all the data at once? He may be lobbing digital bombs at governments, but his methods seem unfocused and he a bit megomaniacal. The cables have already had a profound effect, and this indeed is the first real infowar, but I’m guessing he will be smoking rubble soon, even as the leaks continue. [emphasis added]
This is all rhetorical, just metaphors. But the implication is there: Wikileaks is attacking the United States.
And naturally, if the United States is under attack, it absolutely has the right to defend itself. Just as we target Al-Qa’eda, the US should move immediately to arrest those involved, shut down their web operations, and block their financing.
But only if it really is an attack. I don’t think that’s what we have with the Wikileaks case.
Asymmetrical warfare, anarchist bomb-throwing, and “digital vandalism” are all forms of attack. But dissent is not an attack. Activism is not an attack. And most importantly, journalism is not an attack.
Let’s be clear about exactly what happened. Pfc Bradley Manning allegedly leaked the cables to hackers involved with Wikileaks. Wikileaks then elected to share them with various news agencies, the Guardian, Der Spiegel, and others. Those media outlets then chose which documents they would report on, and Wikileaks followed by publishing those specific cables. That’s why there have only been around a thousand, out of some quarter million, cables made available to the public.
If anyone committed a crime or did anything wrong, and again that’s not yet been proven, then it would be Bradley Manning, no one else. Wikileaks, along with newspapers and blogs who report on and link to them, are simply engaging in journalism, in free – protected – speech.
I understand the desire of Assange and others to portray themselves as freedom fighters battling the evil state. I am constantly having to criticize my fellow liberals for calling themselves “insurgents”, it’s almost second nature for some of them. I get it, though. It’s neat to imagine yourself as heroically slaying the dragon of the empire. It’s neat to be a warrior for a cause, laying your life on the line and throwing your body into the gears of the machines of aggression and oppression.
But the problem is that war is real. Terrorists don’t leak cables, they murder people. Insurgents don’t campaign for legislation, they kill the foreign soldiers occupying their lands and the puppet governments working for them. It’s not cool to be in their shoes, it’s terrible, the worst thing you can imagine.
War, whether asymmetrical or not, is not something you want to be a part of, not something you want to support like transparency and accountability. It is instead the complete destruction of society and basic human decency. As Ursula K. LeGuin once wrote, war is the opposite of civilization.
The act of publishing information is not warfare. Wikileaks is not warfare. Just because Julian Assange thinks of himself as a freedom fighter, and just because Wikileaks’ supporters like to imagine themselves fighting an “Infowar”, doesn’t make it true.
If we allow our definitions of war and conflict to blur, then we bring the government’s aggressive response on ourselves. How easy is it for the authorities to claim that Wikileaks is an enemy of the state when even Assange’s most strident supporters refer to him as a bomb thrower waging asymmetrical warfare against the American empire?
Look at the misery and disasters wrought by our other rhetorical wars – the War on Crime, the War on Poverty, the War on Terror. They lead to oppression, violation of rights, and in some cases, horrific violence. We should think twice before choosing to define Wikileaks – and transparency and accountability – as some kind of War on State Secrecy. That’s not what free speech is, and that’s not what journalism is either.
If you support Wikileaks, if you support transparency, accountability, or even just basic free speech, you should not be playing into the government’s semantic game that presents itself as a victim, and Wikileaks as an attacker. As someone who engages in journalism, as someone who engages in activism and dissent, I don’t want these things re-defined as an attack on the state.
I am not an insurgent, and neither are you. Until we realize that, until we understand the difference between journalism and war, then the government will continue to claim it’s acting in self defense.
Stop giving the government an excuse for repression. Stop calling Wikileaks “warfare”.



81 Comments

I don’t like Wikileaks because the natural response is for governments to become even more secretive with their information.
I think Assange is a gasbag, a narcissist, and engaging in a game of chicken with a lot of governments that are a whole lot less queasy about doing wetwork than we are.
Has he committed a crime? No. It’s protected speech. I just think his tactics leave something to be desired.
I find it interesting that we find out the true colors of politicians as they “evolve their postions”. Today’s SCOTUS is not the one which allowed the publication of the Pentagon Papers; and today’s republicans will never see that their Fearless Leaders committed crimes because there is no accoutability… strangely Wikileaks provided an attempt at that accountability, and they are uncomfortable at best knowing that the window to their collective souls has no shutters anymore.
I agree. For all the hype around Wikileaks, we seemed to have missed huge victories for transparency (Fed audit, CA execution drugs) that were accomplished through activism, organizing, and political pressure.
In that same vein, I think Wikileaks’ radical transparency is misplaced. The USG has plenty of levers for transparency and accountability, FOIA and so forth. Whereas authoritarian countries like China or Iran, or private non-state actors like Blackwater and BP, have zero obligation to be transparent or accountable.
It seems to me they should be adjusting their priorities.
The problem with Wikileaks is that it is not the Pentagon Papers or Watergate. Really, a lot of this stuff we already pretty much knew and none of it really made a splash. Some of it is stuff that is secret for a very good reason- and that is because it is not embarrassing or covering criminality, but dangerous if that information is known.
There is a difference between exposing lies and exposing the important strategic locations that could cripple the world’s economy if they were attacked.
That said- calling for the assassination of these people is wrong, as is trying to shut them down in this manner.
At this point, the wrongs are just piling up.
Nobody defined as “normal” would be willing to take on most of the combined military and intel assets of NATO.
All the normal people are complying like good little sheep with their government’s demands to “be afraid” and “go shopping.”
Are you frackin’ kidding me, Josh?
You really believe “the US Federal Government has plenty of levers for transparency and accountability?”
Oh really?
Who in the sitting in the White House meeting for the Cheney Energy task force just before Dubya got sworn in?
“Dissent is not an attack. Activism is not an attack. And most importantly, journalism is not an attack.”
Whatever you think of Wikileaks and Assange, you have to admit that it’s sad that Americans and their government so quickly forget the importance of our core principles in a free and democratic society.
People, please, please, please read Glenn Greenwald at Salon.com on this.
I guarantee he will completely convince you on the absolute urgent necessity of Wikileaks.
The mechanisms for transparency really do exist; it’s just that they’re nailed down in one direction; opacity.
Really? Which stuff, specifically? You have inside knowledge?
This is precisely the argument made against Daniel Ellsburg. How can you justify this totalitarianism?
THEY ARE ENGAGED IN JOURNALISM.
Is that illegal now? Sig heil, mein Herr.
http://www.salon.com/news/wikileaks/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2010/12/08/wikileaks
“Stop giving the government an excuse for repression.”
Our Fascist government needs no excuse for repression. Repression is what they do.
I wonder why Bush did not try to shut down FDL, for the same reasons Hillary is now. Political hypocrisy. Nothing new here. Free speech via Wikileaks is OK with me.
Releasing these cables is basically, as the Pentagon Papers were, work toward publicizing a conspiracy. The cables also contain a lot of dirty laundry.
The US federal government knew what Wikileaks had and, for months, refused to say any of it should be withheld. The feds did keep bleating “state security”, but they always do!
Senator Clinton’s hubby signed the bill which allowed the World Trade Organization leech to attach itself to the United States. This, in turn, allowed the filthy-rich—who were behind it—to export our jobs, our production, and our technologies.
Hilary Clinton has good reason to pretend Wikileaks is a terror organization, because some of those cables likely shed more light on Bill Clinton’s support-the-rich behaviors than she finds comfortable.
Just because it’s urgently necessary means that I have to agree with the way it’s being done.
Just like I don’t have to like PETA’s methods for raising awareness of animal abuse issues – at some point, your message loses effectiveness when it’s bundled with sensationalism.
Wait. What? Do you have links? Hillary is trying to shut down FDL?
I’ve got to get out more.
The cables are only reporting to us what our media should have already reported. That is the problem, the corporate media is at a loss to say why they have not followed up all these years on the real stories.
How recently have YOU successfully accessed needed or longed-for information throught the FOIA? Try getting adverse event reports (for any drug) from the FDA and see how quickly your request is completed . . . or even acknowledged.
So either you support Wikileaks or you’re a sheep?
Awfully narrow world-view you have there.
Note that the pentagon papers case was about prior restraint, not after-the-fact punishment. Several of the justices noted in their concurrences that they could imagine circumstances in which publication must be permitted and and could be subsequently punished.
Nice post Josh – the semantics of the discussion frame the entire debate, I totally agree with your take on the words of warfare.
Still, Wikileaks is a major threat to the US Gov’t ability to lie through their teeth, it’s the accountability they don’t want. who would? They’ve got it pretty good right now and a change to a more open and truthful system of journalism is not in the interest of the PBT.
Me, I’m making popcorn waiting for the next show to drop.
Seems I remember that our last POTUS made a habit of classifying just about everything. Or am I mis-remembering the secretive nature of the previous administration (not to say secrecy hasn’t blemished the current admin as well). Do we need to know what was discussed by Cheney et al regarding energy policy and the pre-planning for invasion of Iraq? Do we have the right or need to know about AHIP and Pharma meetings before the nightmare of a healthcare bill was born?
Assange, though, frames his project as one of attack:
From wikipedia:
Clinton faced his first defeat on trade legislation during his second term. In November 1997, the Republican-controlled Congress delayed voting on a bill to restore a presidential trade authority that had expired in 1994. The bill would have given the president the authority to negotiate trade agreements which the Congress was not authorized to modify–known as “fast-track negotiating” because it streamlines the treaty process. Clinton was unable to generate sufficient support for the legislation, even among the Democratic Party.
The Clinton administration negotiated a total of about 300 trade agreements with other countries.[65] Clinton’s last treasury secretary, Lawrence Summers, stated that the lowered tariffs that resulted from Clinton’s trade policies, which reduced prices to consumers and kept inflation low, were technically “the largest tax cut in the history of the world.”[66]
My, how times have changed. Outsourcing jobs was a tax break. Democrats and Republicans opposed fast-track legislation.
Two words: SOUTH KOREA
I sure didn’t know a lot of what WikiLeaks has made public, such as illegally spying on U.N. diplomats, the U.S. bombing Yemen and having the Yemeni government claim that Yemen was doing the bombing, the U.S. pressuring foreign governments to cover up investigations and crimes by U.S. citizens. I could go on, but you get the idea. As for the list of “strategic locations”, if they were so strategic they should have been marked “Top Secret” rather than “Secret”, which allowed about 3 million U.S. citizens to have access to that information–including, presumably, Brad Manning.
WikiLeaks is just investigative journalism with a difference: we’re getting to see the actual documents and not some watered-down interpretation.
BINGO! Perhaps the most revealing aspect of the Wikileaks documents is just how low our current “journalists” have sunk. Journalism WAS a profession; it now (sorry, broad brush here) is little more than clerical–repackaging advertising, lobbying views, corporate-driven press releases, all disguised as “news”.
Larry Flynnt, the person we hate to love.
If you don’t set the line for information freedom far far away from the normal, and in a situation that is far far removed from what most peeps would do, there is not freedom of communication.
The alternative is let the PTB constrain what is acceptable to publish more & more.
So, if you don’t like Assange, think about him as 2010′s Larry Flynnt.
Besides, if he weren’t doing great work, the govts of the world wouldn’t be squealing like stuck pigs.
“Journalism is the practice of investigation and reporting of events, issues, and trends to a broad audience.”
Assange is engaged in journalism.
Seriously? What purpose are you trying to serve with this other than to intimidate and harass?
Exactly. Had the media been doing their job, then these cables being sent out enmass would not come as a shock. We would already have had the information via daily news broadcasts.
Just like we witnessed with the Bush presidencies, and now the Obama, they want to censure the news and coerce the pundits to speak out in favor of their agenda. It has nothing whatsoever to do with representing the citizens of this country or taking care of our own business.
I agree. Like I said above, had the media being doing their job and reporting daily on the real news this dump a week thing would not be such a big deal.
Wikileaks will be the excuse for the plutocracy to exert total control over internet content, in the same way it used 9/11 as an excuse to curtail so many other civil liberties.
Exactly.
The actions against Assange balanced against the extremely mild nature of the cables released suggests to me that the documents he still possesses are so volatile the governments of the world, and the bankers they slavishly work for, will be damaged.
High crimes and treason are ongoing. The man must have the dirt on MAJOR players.
This is a turning point.
What is Julian Assange doing, and why? Read about it:
http://zunguzungu.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/julian-assange-and-the-computer-conspiracy-%e2%80%9cto-destroy-this-invisible-government%e2%80%9d/
This is rather interesting.
You are fucking out of your mind….
Your rational for disliking wikileaks is that you fear the government will become more secretive than it already is BECAUSE of wikileaks?
Jesus fucking god.
Sure. But he frames it in terms of attack. Accordingly, it’s not unreasonable for people to take him at his word.
Essentially….Yes.
Why are you afraid of knowing what your government does? We aren’t talking nuclear launch codes here.
It is amazing to what extent people will think they are righteous and correct just for following the will of their government.
Very true, the language is indeed the definer here. And we might not appreciate the impact of seemingly subtle rhetorical artifacts.
Yet for most that language and definition is supplied in single-serve juice boxes by the corporate MSM. Already they (MSNBC, CNN) are aggressively conflating Anonymous with Wikileaks. In another couple of days they will have always been one and the same. By the time your wingnut brother-in-law gets the news all he will hear is “Terrorists are stealing your credit cards and other Secret Stuff: CYBERWAR!”.
And as you say, it’s the war part that’s problematic.
The WL crew have stated that previous releases have shown that a bulk dump is less effective than incremental releases. This strategy has now shown it’s possible to break through the news-cycle barrier and considering how many “documents” remain in the dump we could be seeing WL in the news for some time to come.
Which, in the war and fear-driven contexts brandished by camera-seek politicians, means that that “TERRORIST!” designations for WL may be the next escalation point in this amazing chunk of history. Next week?
Wait…
So you are arguing for nobody ever to challenge the government on the premises that they will further subjugate the populace?
Never forget this:
– http://www.collateralmurder.com
The New Baghdad office of Reuters got hit from our chop.
Two dead.
High fives and megalying by the ton.
I agree with ricecakes. Either you defy the PTB, or you self-censor. No middle ground. So if you do the latter, you are doing the criminal conspiracy that is the USG the favor of being able to continue without doing any work.
Alternatively, if you bring it out into the open, you have a chance of winning, even though you’ll probably lose.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Well, they’ll need to move some drones out of Afghanistan so they can assassinate him in Sweden. It might take an extra week.
Maybe they’ll just use a hellfire missile to take him out in a wheelchair as he crosses the street after attending Mass.
I still think he should invoke the ultimate defense to the trumped-up sex charges:
“I am a practicing Catholic as I explain to all of my sexual partners.”
Subpoena the Pope.
Not only that, but how many Americans have been involved in the crimes of these neo-Nazis? Congressmen, members of the military, mercenaries and even banks and ISP’s have aided and abetted this criminal conspiracy. What happens to them when this comes crashing down, as it ultimately will?
“I was just following orders” didn’t work for Nazi criminals. It won’t work now, either.
Get off the damn bus or you’re destined to go over the embankment with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26Pm4ricn9I
patrickhenrypress,
If you self-censor, you automatically lose but no one notices. If you do a wikileaks & lose, you go down in flames, so at least there’s a flicker for future historians to pick up.
I think the outlook is really dismal either way, but admire greatly Assange’s attempts to change it (the future).
And yes, the criminal conspiracy of players is broad and deep. Which is why the attacks on Assange are so strong. It’s basically him against the world, and I think that framing is not exaggerated.
I doubt Assange would be so targeted, just hidden away somewhere. Anyway those drones will be needed for Great Firewall of America operations.
BTW, “Subpoena the Pope” would be a great name for a goth-folk band.
oops, for some reason my reply appears a couple blocks down in the main thread, SRY :(
Wonder what CIA hookers charge the government when they take one for the team?
Agreed. This is also why I wish Anonymous would STFU fairly soon. Their actions may be intended to be “helpful” but in the present political and media climate they won’t be portrayed as anything but “Enemies”.
Their continued participation in this event may well distract from the critical issues of laws, censorship and governmental thuggery.
One of the fascinating things is how the public narrative of this whole ball of wax has changed over the past months from a story where WikiLeaks and Assange were acting responsibly with other reputable news agencies to one where Assange has become a sexually deranged terrorist. I heard Bob Woodward on NPR last week (?) telling us all how the NYT acted in a thoroughly responsible fashion while Assange was at best feckless.
Thanks for another great post, Mull. However, my experience in the US leads me to believe that practically speaking there are quite a few folks who do consider dissent, activism and journalism acts of war. Hearts and minds, baby.
I am a journalist. I also have ethical standards. Assange does not. He published and does not care about whether or not what he is publishing is alright to publish.
Your attempt to portray me as some supporter of totalitarianism or Naziism is juvenile and not deserving of debate. Assange published without caring what he published and did not care if it hurt people or not. That is irresponsible. It is as reprehensible as Robert Novak publishing Valarie Plame’s name. If Novak had had any ethics at that juncture, he would have said ‘no’.
I am not saying that everything that Assange is doing is wrong. I am not saying that leaking some of these is wrong. I am saying that leaking some of them is, though.
Leaking things like the fact that US contractors in Afghanistan were hiring child prostitutes is certainly admirable.
This goes for all three of you who responded to what I wrote. Assange took a shotgun and let it off in a crowd to kill a fly. You may not like it, but there it is. This is not black and white, but a very broad shade of grey.
It does not make what those attacking Assange are doing as being right either. I noticed that you assumed that I supported the efforts to shut him down. I do not.
Wow- amazing is it not- that I can hold two different views that conflict with each other. Amazing.
IIRC NYT got (get?) their “cablegate” documents via the Guardian, and spun them in careful ways.
Just the sort of responsibility I’ve come to expect from the corporate MSM.
“practically speaking there are quite a few folks who do consider dissent, activism and journalism acts of war.”
Nothing new about that, though orders of magnitude differ from time-to-time.
Think of McCarthy & HUAC. Don’t know the polls at the time, but would guess for awhile they strongly favored McCarthy.
At least back then, the defenders of the criminal USG had an excuse, in that it was reasonable to believe that the U.S. had a real enemy.
Now, not at all. AQ? Surely you jest.
He can’t help it. He’s suffering from Stockholm’s syndrome.
That is NOT what Assange did. He offered the files up to our government so they could be redacted. He didn’t just let them out in the goneishpere for all the universe to see.
Cute, just like you’ve associated Wikileaks with PETA by bundling it with sensationalism.
If you don’t agree with the way it’s being done, tell us how you would release the documents?
Currently they are carefully redacted by working with multiple press orgs including the Guardian who is taking Brit Government D notices into account.
Wikileaks asked the State Department in advance if there was some way they could work together to decide on a method to do that correctly, for which they were rebuffed.
Obviously they are willing to negotiote with Republican Terrorists holding unemployed people hostage. Why not WL?
So please, share your ideas.
Sorry for the fear… She is only trying to shut down Wiki..
Like any good journalist, I take statements about personal motivations with a grain of salt. Wikileaks’ actions have released a treasure trove of valuable documents. Those who wish to censor these and to keep world opinion on their side have chosen to attack Wikileaks’ founder, its funding sources, its servers. Amazon computing, Visa, MasterCArd, and Paypal have agreed to withdraw their services. Supporters of Wikileaks can choose to respond to this suppression of Wikileaks by remaining silent, or by finding a way to protest. I suggest that they politely advise PayPal, Visa, Mastercard, Amazon and so on, that they no longer will be using their services or buying their products as long as they continue to boycott Wikileaks. That seems like common sense to me and a rational use of the power of the purse. No one is harmed and this is completely nonviolent. Choosing not to buy a product or to use a credit card has much more in common with exercising one’s freedom, than with aggressive behaviors.
Assange doesn’t exhibit Narcissistic behaviors.
He lives and austere lifestyle, he want’s attention on the documents, not himself, he doesn’t spend money on nice suits (look at that JC Penney rag he had on during the CNN interview, and he doesn’t even have a good haircut.
Your attack is adhominem based on your own projections,, IMVHO.
I disagree. I find Assanges morals at a higher level than yours are, because he places the value on human life, and against a war mongering imperial power. Yours duty is to the wurlitzer or to a government.
If you are even a journalist then where exactly do you publish?
I support his goals. I don’t support his tactics. Smacks too much of “ends justifying the means”.
Excuse the hell out of me for having an opinion that differs from yours.
I don’t know of an alternative. I just don’t think this is the right way.
I think the government’s reaction to these leaks disproves that by itself. It has not done anything to improve the issues brought up by the leaks already. It hasn’t prosecuted people for war crimes, been more careful about making public pronouncements that are going to be contradicted by classified information when it’s released (either through legitimate or illegitimate means).
Meanwhile, the government has been very sure to track down whistle blowers and either fire or arrest them.
This government is already secretive well beyond what it should be. Let me just quote this bit of the EO covering classified information yet again:
How do you have any assurance that the system is being abused if there aren’t whistle blowers? If something is classified, which doesn’t take many of the right people to happen, it may not be released to the public for 25 years.
Keep in mind that the people who wrote this EO, and at least the two previous, all had this language included. There’s at least some reason to believe it has happened, and certainly there’s reason to think it could happen.
OK, name a place where we knew that Apache helicopter crews were targeting people even though they didn’t know they were armed. Tell us where knew that the Army was deliberately ignoring torture being performed by the Iraqi law enforcement people they were training or cooperating with. And by that I mean specifically, where was that information published?
So far, your “ethics” look like nothing more than spouting spurious nonsense.
Incidentally, of the 250k diplomatic messages Wikileaks claims to have in its possession, they’ve only released a few hundred. That doesn’t strike me as a “shotgun” approach.
“Think of McCarthy & HUAC” probably would be better expressed as ‘Think of the Army-McCarthy Senate hearings or the HUAC [witch-hunting]‘.
Agreed, on all counts. What I’ve seen of what Wikileaks is doing suggests that hey have been careful to avoid the sort of destructive release of information their critics are accusing them of. Any protest should probably be in that same vein.
It’s been my feeling that the government has been getting more secretive for far longer. There’s been a tremendous increase in the amount of classified material in the last few decades, despite having fought no wars against major opponents, and despite procedures that are supposed to limit the amount of information kept secret.
I realize a “feeling” isn’t much to go on, but the GAO or CRS do studies every few years, and I doubt you’ll find one that says the amount of information is smaller than last time they looked at it.
I don’t know of an alternative either, and I worked with DoD for much of my career. This is about as responsible a process as I can imagine, outside of government.
In fact, this is why there was so much fuss for protection for whistle blowers once upon a time. The employer, or government, has all the cards. They can hire lots of lawyers and security people, and claim that all those documents you just published or took to the police are company property.
When you write things like you just did, you’re saying that you don’t want to know what you’re not supposed to know, because that’s how it’s going to be unless someone does something like this once in a while.
The blog hangs on some pretty weak premises and is rife with logical errors. I recommend you start over.
I guess you knew that the Saudis were bankrolling and arming Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Also that the Saudis were pushing us to invade Iran to complete their genecidal war against the Shi’a.
I did not know for sure until I read the documents.
As for the important strategic locations, the Saudis have probably passed that information on already.
I don’t agree with Ron Paul on much, but he is right on concerning Wikileaks.
Tsuki,
I knew that back around 2002. I thought EVERYONE by now knew that. It was even in the news a few times, or did that just get missed?
I’m just sitting here chuckling. I wish I could cite you the exact sources that I have read over the last decade. I’ve known all about this stuff, and heck, thought it was common knowledge by now.
I guess what was foolish of me was to think that people actually remember things for longer than a day and a half now.
I’ve known about the Iraqi police torturing civilians for years now. It was on the news several times- and that our people ignored it. But the stories died in short order.
I find it funny (odd) that the people in here are dismissing my points by claiming that I bow to some grand imperialistic machine or that I bend knee to money. That they choose to dismiss my points through diminishment rather than having an honest conversation about the fact that there is a lot of stupidity in what Assange is doing.
I am also amazed at how hostile so many of you are at the idea that there are no absolutes in this case. In fact, I don’t think any of you have really thought through any of this or what it means. I find it rather odd that you would be this hostile to the fact that this man has acted recklessly with a lot of these documents.
Yeah, he offered them to the government to redact- and do you expect them to cooperate? Instead, if Assange had any morals, he could have and should have acted on his own accord and redacted the pertinent information himself. He could have done it. He had the time. Instead, he published and said ‘so what.’
The man is a sociopath. Daniel Ellsburg was not.
I am not defending what the soldiers did or what happened with the soldiers. All I am doing is saying that both sides are wrong. If you cannot handle that concept. . .well, not much point in debating, is there?
Oh, I should add that anyone who has studied the Middle East even cursorily knows that the Saudis would want a war with Iran. They would also know that Al-Qaida is pushing to regain the caliphate, and need to get into Iraq, Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia to do so.
This isn’t actually a reply to me, but to bridgettepl. There is no reply link there.
Let’s see, I haven’t thought about this very much. Did you read what I wrote in a previous comment? I’ve thought about government secrecy quite a bit, having had to deal with it over the years. If we’re going to make claims we aren’t actually going to back up with anything but snotty comments, I’ll just do that one.
As for both sides being wrong, I can handle that concept when it’s relevant. It’s not here. When the government is deliberately covering up torture and other malfeasance, as I here not more than a page or so upthread, it has committed an illegal act. That means that anyone who is a party to that coverup is also guilty, even if they happened on that material by mistake. That’s how it works in white collar crime, and that’s how it works here.
You don’t seem to have ever thought about the potential implications of someone covering up a crime by classifying it – either how easy that would be or how difficult to detect if something like this Wikileaks dump hadn’t happened. Nor do you seem to have given a moment’s useful thought about what the implications of that are for how a government operates, or what obligations both government employees and journalists have in those situations.
As for Assange being a sociopath, do you know him? Or are you just going by what others write about him? How in the heck can you make any judgment on his character at this distance? Did Ellsberg redact the Pentagon Papers? What ass-backwards world do you live in? The government had its chance to suggest redactions. A reasonable government would have done so, and that may, in fact, be why the other 249k diplomatic cables haven’t been released yet. Just because the government says it hasn’t done something doesn’t mean it hasn’t, and Assange may have been keeping his word not to talk about anyone who showed up to look at them.
Do you check out anything before you write it?
He’s been caught in a honey pot operation, that much is pretty clear. He has an international arrest warrant out for him for something that only seems to be a crime in Sweden. What part of trumped up charges are you failing to understand?
So, frankly, I’m just as amused by your opinions as you are by mine. If you want to change that, then maybe you can go find a few things that back up your claims. Otherwise, it’s pretty clear that you’re nothing but a bullshit artist, and this conversation has reached its logical end.
I really do believe that we are only as sick as our secrets. I have never bought the idea that secrets are necessary. Do what you do in broad daylight…and allow the process of conflict to solve our problems. Not war, but process, the dialectic of debate. How can truth surface if we never allow the discussion or awareness? We cannot evolve in the face of secrets. But we can be led.
Cujo359,
The conversation reached a logical conclusion the moment you started saying things like “So far, your “ethics” look like nothing more than spouting spurious nonsense.”
Once you dismiss my point- and sorry, I do not keep every single story I read over decades because I also read things like newspapers and watch television news- by deminishment rather than facts, well, sorry.
I’ve known that the government was covering up torture, why did you not? It is not like Wikileaks was the only place that information was coming from. We have had citizens coming forward to make it clear that they were handed over to foreign nations to be tortured. We’ve had Iraqis coming forward and saying they were tortured.
It seems to me that those of you supporting Assange just have not looked at who this man is, nor at a lot of this information coming out. I can’t speak as to why you did not know the bulk of this by now, but I did. Asking for links is futile, I might add. Would like like the link to the manifesto to the Project for the New American Century? Sorry, you won’t find it any more, the scrubbed the site.
Jon Stewart made the best point in all of this. Maybe you should try looking it up sometime.
Despite what Ellsburg is saying, no Assange is not Ellsburg, and no, this is not the Pentagon Papers.
I wanted to leave one last message Cujo359,
Thank you for the discussion. While neither of us moved, it was nice to at least discuss things. I know that you and I have more important things to do now than continue to beat this horse into the dirt. You were quite civil.
Take care.
Bridgette
Excuse the hell out of you for having such a ridiculous opinion.
Define his “tactics”. Or are you just blowing smoke?
Where’s the cocksucker who used my secret name Cthulhu in vain?
What? Jane? Did you really think I was just some asshat commenter?
Anyway, I have a war to run.