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Note: this diary contains numerous inaccuracies about the author’s relationship to FDL. He is not nor has he ever been an employee of FDL, and his views are his own. He says on his profile that he is an “Assistant Editor” at FDL. This is not true. He has been asked to remove these inaccuracies. — Ed
(To clarify – When The Seminal merged into FDL in 2009, I was one of several writers who were actively part of the editorial team. At the time, we had access to the site beyond the normal members, and one of my roles was to review and promote reader diaries. I rarely did this, but was a member of the team that formulated strategy and shared editorial function.
My status changed to regular member, without me being notified in any way, once The Seminal became My FDL. I also managed the “Watercooler” segment on a nightly basis for almost a full year. So to be technical, I have never been a paid employee of FDL. But I have certainly functioned on the site at an editorial level. Nice try with the ad hominem attack, though. - Jim Moss)
Last January, I decided to take a break from political blogging. Spooked by the Arizona shootings and frustrated by the hopeless liberal-conservative dogfight, I determined that my message of “let’s start a new movement that appeals to the disaffected from both sides” was falling on mostly deaf ears.
I sensed that the leadership at FDL was not in tune with my new post-partisan outlook. Once I began my “campaign” to primary Obama and then to abandon the Democrats altogether, I suddenly stopped appearing on the FDL front page (which may or may not be a coincidence – I’m honestly not sure.)
Now please allow me to qualify that last statement. I was in no way ostracized or chased off by anyone at FDL. But something started to feel a bit funny to me, something I’m still trying to sort through after six months away from the daily grind of the blogosphere.
On the surface, FDL appears to be a fiercely independent progressive outlet – ready to challenge Republicans and Democrats alike – to challenge the status quo system as a whole. Obama is regularly criticized on these pages for his plethora of betrayals. One finds here some of the most intelligent and passionate articulations of progressivism that run the gamut of social and political issues.
But after writing for the site and managing the “Watercooler” segment for a year, something began to bother me. It wasn’t that people here are all talk and no action. That accusation has been made by others, but it is patently false. Many of the folks here are heavily involved in direct activism. What concerns me has to do with the continued support, implicitly and explicitly, for the two-party system that is slowly grinding our economy and our culture into oblivion.
Progressives have always detested the Republican Party. That’s a given. But more and more of us feel the same antipathy for the Democratic Party – especially since “The Revolution” of 2008 has proved to be such a hollow victory. Our enemy is not just the GOP, but the entire two-party structure. Not surprisingly, many on the other side of the aisle are feeling the same way about their traditional party.
How many times, on these pages, have the failings of the Democrats been recounted – only to be shouted down by cries of “the Republicans are worse”? How many times have we progressives had to swallow the bitter pills of compromise, delay, and defeat – even when the Democrats held the White House and historic majorities in Congress in their hands?
Think back to the day Obama was elected. I remember sitting on my couch, pounding my pillow and crying tears of joy when the results were confirmed. I thought the world was going to change. But think how many times since then we’ve had to make excuses for another broken promise and another shattered expectation. Ask yourself what has changed.
No action on climate change. Health care mandates. No public option. No action on climate change. Tax cuts for the wealthy extended. Bailouts to save big corporations, but no real financial reform and very little help for the struggling people. No action on climate change. Continued militarism and empire building. No action on climate change. A weak stimulus that is constantly underfunded. No action on climate change. Social security and Medicare on the ropes. No action on climate change. The desperate need for jobs downplayed in favor of “debt reduction.” No action on climate change. Corporate power completely unchallenged. And did I mention, no action on climate change?
It’s the same old shit in a different bag. My bag finally burst when Obama gave a speech on Afghanistan, and his talking points could have been lifted directly off an old George Bush speech. Virtually nothing has changed, except “Don’t ask, don’t tell” – and that’s not even close to enough to justify re-election.
What I realized, over time, is that FDL – despite all the good it does – is a part of the very system that it so often speaks against. In implicit and explicit ways, it condones the Democratic Party structure that has proven to be so ineffective to progressive aims. FDL, on the whole, is not willing to tear down the system, because in many ways, it and many of the people who write for it benefit from the system. When the chips are down, most of the people here will run back to the Democrats and will not support a true reform movement. FDL, on the whole, is not interested in discarding the old two-party system and building something new and better.
Which is what became clear to me in the weeks after the November election. With the Democrat vs. Republican hate fest in full bloom, I began a series called “UnCommon Ground.” It outlined reasons why progressives and certain conservative should align against the two-party system, and even sought to redefine the old paradigm of liberal vs. conservative with new categories.
The series generated a lot of discussion. After two months, however, I realized that discussion was all it would ever be. FDL was not to become a launching site for a new type of movement. Not a single installment of “UnCommon Ground” was promoted to the front page, and the boss herself expressed skepticism at the idea of a third-party movement the one time I succeeded in receiving a comment from her.
So why am I back? I’m not really sure. I’m starting some other endeavors within my church circles, but I want to maintain a conversation with FDL. I believe that as time goes by, and as the Democrats continue to disappoint, this argument will gain more traction. And then, maybe we can start something…
145 Comments
I spent some time here and at the Daily Bell talking to folks about common ground between Progressives and Libertarians. My conclusion was that both camps would rather be right than in power.
Austerity will give rise to a populist movement outside the Fascist Uniparty system. I hope. Leadership will come from the people and not our corrupt political class. Only a movement that inspires and enlists the working class will have the muscle to oust the Fascists. The Progressives and Libertarians will bring up the rear.
Burnout is absolutely understandable, Jim – we have been thoughtfully involved I believe, most of us who post, since the 2000 election (many long before that). The mental strain is ferocious because the smidgeon of power in each of us faces a battery of entrenched insistencies – they were dug in long before we even realized they were there.
It’s not for nothing that most of the important idealistic wars are waged by the young. They still have the energy to do it, and they do it beautifully. The most recent presidential election is the best example of it, the crowds out in freezing temperatures for the inauguration. The happiness we all felt, that finally we had overcome.
Very like the Egyptian uprising, that was a crowning moment for the democratic energies of our national will. We spoke with one voice against the ills our leadership had been engaged in.
We were betrayed. But I think our expression of will was a beautiful thing.
It may be that there are subterfuges even on this forum. You might know better than me. But as an expression of national will, I’m finding it one of the most informative sites, and I encourage you to continue to post. The Egyptians are hanging in there; we’d best do so as well. The alternative is rather grim.
“FDL was not to become a launching site for a new type of movement”
I get what you’re saying, but I would say that FDL is the site that it would most likely come from.
I agree. We who can already see the extreme austerity (we’re already dealing with austerity) coming should be reaching out to populists, libertarians and authentic tea party people, and trying to come up with a common platform for ousting the two corporate-owned parties.
That would be more practical than, for example, making up a ‘united progressive’ platform. Been done, didn’t work, got 1% of the vote in the last two elections.
Jim thanks for your diary and bringing to light something which I suspect many here have been pondering after taking into consideration those diaries which do or do not see the light of day and those which miraculously seem to sprint from oblivion to recommended.
However, the reason is understandable. This is a for-profit privately, owned business and is expected to earn its owners a profit, and I am sure they would appreciate a larger than smaller one.
No evil design just a capitalistic venture.
Or the short answer: Don’t fuck with their rice bowl.
You have a really distorted idea about our level of income if you think we are making money on this venture. Sorry to disabuse you of a good meme.
” Once I began my “campaign” to primary Obama and then to abandon the Democrats altogether, I suddenly stopped appearing on the FDL front page (which may or may not be a coincidence – I’m honestly not sure.)”
Well, this is interesting, even if dismaying. I personally don’t agree with abandoning the Democrats altogether. Certainly not from the get-go. But that sentiment is quite popular, and in fact the New Progressive Alliance, which was birthed here at FDL, embodies that notion. (NPA will run candidates in Democratic primaries at the federal level, but with the expectation that such candidates will lose, but then throw their supporters to an NPA candidate in the general election.)
I think you have 2 good options. One is to abandon the transpartisan effort, at least for now, and look to make progressive forces that haven’t given up on the Democrats both more effective, as well as more aggressive. A lot of my diaries have this in mind. If you read them, you will come across a lot of unimplemented suggestions.
For the transpartisan option, there are far fewer options, but maybe one way to go about it is to contact ProgressiveRadioNetwork.com(PRN), and offer to get involved in, first of all, creating a transpartisan place (forum or blog), in cyberspace, where fans of the various ‘constituencies’ of PRN could congregate. Or else, you might even want to do a show on that theme for their network.
I don’t know of any political blog that is stellar in terms of organizing, FDL included. PRN is also very poor in that regard. In the case of blogs, I think part of the problem is the mindset of the principals and communities. They mostly are really interested in intellectual and emotional stimulation, and their primary cognitive mode is that of verbal communication. They don’t think like organizers. Two stellar exceptions are jeffroby and Anthony Noel (themalcontent), but the exception proves the rule. Note that Noel and jeffroby are not principals at FDL….
PRN is even worse than the blogs, in terms of it’s capacity or even interest in organizing it’s explosively growing community. What’s really weird about that is that it’s founder, Gary Null, is an uber activist, bashes both the Democratic and Republican parties pretty regularly, has tried to get Ron Paul and Ralph Nader, I believe it was, “together” to create a transpartisan political force, and hosts shows that feature advocates of Greens, progressive Democrats, Tea Party, Constitutionalists, Libertarians, etc. Null has often expressed the idea that these various factions need to unite around the best that each has to offer.
Perhaps Null is doing something behind the scenes to bring that about (aside from the obvious act of including all these groups under one network). But in terms of what’s visible to the public, like I said, PRN is worse then the political blogs. I mean, there’s not even a forum or blog associated with PRN, where fans of the various shows could interact, get to know each others’ thoughts, and maybe start organizing ‘off the grid’, as both jeffroby (Full Court Press) and Anthony Noel (NPA) have done on politial blogs!
There have been significant efforts at transpartisan policy proposal making. Perhaps you should first survey the participants I list in my diary References from “Voice of the People: The Transpartisan Imperative in American Life”, to see if there’s even a pulse at creating a transpartisan political movement.
You are always free to invite friends to read and recommend diaries, and some of us actually have communities in addition to this one, at other blogs.
I am not referring to the level of compensation of the employees or the annual net income of the corporation (S or C) or LLC.
I am suggesting that the owners of FDL have a political point of view to shall we say guide through the reefs and shoals of politically treacherous waters.
No one ever said herding cats was easy.
I highly recommend FDL to many people I meet.
But to believe that a legal entity does not have a political point of view and a somewhat finely focued one would be to suggest naivete on someone’s part and I would hate to believe that anyone is that naïve.
Of course, if the intent of your comment is ‘love it or leave it’, well I heard that a lot during the Vietname War, and didn’t think much of it then or now.
But then again, I could be wrong.
Typical preacher; Ass.
Believe what you want to believe instead of actually reading what the blog has been doing and writing about.
Only a jerk would call someone an ass.
Seems to fit seamlessly.
In order to start a third party, it is going to be necessary to siphon off some of the people who are already elected. The reason is that many will continue to be elected and will always be. Although I am a lifelong Democrat I will not vote for Obama in 2012 but would like to see some Progressives elected to the Congress. If we could make a difference there, we could possibly take over the Dem party from within. I have no problem with a third party but it seems to be in the far distant future and we need something now….or at least the beginning of something. I wish the third party effort well and hope for good things to happen.
One of the serious problems faced by Americans is the choice between two political parties, each with its list of “beliefs.”
For the GOP, anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-gay, pro-Israel,etc.
For the Dems, the opposite, etc.
If you oppose any of the tenets of either party, you are not a believer. I see this in the vast majority of comments that are totally one sided, both in GOP and Democratic blogs.
The middle ground promoted by the politicians after they are elected is some corporate-controlled swamp of ideas related to cutting taxes, ruining unions, praising Bill Clinton and kissing Pete Peterson.
For the Democratic Party to succeed, it needs to not lose the blue collar vote again and again, imply because it presents itself as an exclusive club of social issue maniacs, instead of a party that accepts gun lovers, who are against most abortions, but who also belong to unions, who also support equal rights, and want to retire in dignity and think universal healthcare is a good idea.
The tent is growing smaller for both parties, because too many conditions lead to too few members. Polticial parties should not be “religions,” which excommunicate anyone who do not follow the “edicts” of its leaders.
Huh? What has FDL done to primary Obama*, or else “become a launching site for a new type of movement”. I must have missed this, also. Since you haven’t, please spell it out.
BTW, FDL still doesn’t even have a “tell a friend” feature, even a simple one where I have to keep re-entering my friends’ and family’s email addresses to send them a copy of any particularly interesting posting. A more sophisticated one would allow me to enter my email list once, and never have to do it, again. An even more sophisticated one would allow me to enter more than one email list, so I could tailor my recipient list, easily. (And not create blog sharing fatigue in my recipients.)
I.e., FDL is not even promoting itself very well, much less organizing a new kind of movement. Insofar as a tell-a-friend feature would go, promoting itself would be a piece of cake, compared to organizing a new kind of movement.
* Aside from benignly tolerating the development of NPA.
Both parties are pro Israel.
FDL hasn’t stifled anything, nor is it some structural “part of the problem.” Structural problems would equal “veal pen” which this place definitely ain’t.
The fact that FDL isn’t performing some function some people want it to, doesn’t make that so.
Reporting and activism re: issues, is what it does, and does well.
And people who can’t read, comprehend and understand that are indeed asses.
Actually, it was about promoting a post you want to see move up on the list.
One of the big problems you are going to have in the US with creating a third party is cash. Politics is expensive. To gain cash you need credibility. To gain credibility you need cash.
In Canada we had a third party (New Democratic Party) that most people saw as “socialists”. They supported unions, public insurance, and expanding social programs.
It took a long time, but now they are the official opposition, having unseated the “liberals”.
A third party isn’t going to happen overnight, but the sooner you plant it the sooner it can grow.
How many times, on these pages, have the failings of the Democrats been recounted – only to be shouted down by cries of “the Republicans are worse”?
The GOP is worse I say that all the time I have no problem pointing that out. On the other hand choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil and I don’t settle maybe I don’t say that enough.
I don’t think that the Obamabots have much traction here anymore.
Jim, I noticed that you had not been around and I’m happy that you’re back. Missed your writing.
I’m confused, wasn’t the point of the “primary Obama” movement to take back the Democratic Party for progressives. I think the vast majority of FDL members would be in favor of discarding the two-party system, but that is an even harder challenge than primarying Obama (and frankly, we haven’t even gotten the latter off the ground yet).
Many people here, including myself, do agree with what you’ve been saying. To stop saying it here entirely would only serve to let less people see those ideas. I hope you do come back. I like your posts.
For progressives to take back the the democratic party, we need to ally ourselves with the blue collar vote. I supported Trumka in the “primary Obama” campaign here, because I thought allying with labor would give us the blue collar vote. The popular uprising in wisc, ohio, etc. i think show that i was onto something.
“The series generated a lot of discussion. After two months, however, I realized that discussion was all it would ever be. FDL was not to become a launching site for a new type of movement.”
IMHO the exact nature of the solution to the problems related to our corporate-captured government will remain frustratingly vague until we reach a tipping point which gets people up off the couch and into the streets.
Once people are willing to accept the fact that they must take action, the game changes, until then, this is how things are.
It has to do with the fact that it has been so long since we’ve been in such bad shape that we have forgotten that democracy requires more than voting for president.
In the meantime, all the king’s horses and all the king’s men are busy wasting time trying to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again.
I believe Jane is a brilliant political hacker, and the people who populate this site will be some of the first to understand how things are going to go because we have the advantage of her clear-eyed analysis of how things are actually going right now.
I think it’s premature to expect the eminent launch of a new type of movement, and the proof is in the situation surrounding the T-Party. Whatever true populist roots that might have been present at it’s birth were smothered by the MOTU who still have a nearly insurmountable ability to sway public opinion.
What ever new type of movement comes to be, it must be strong enough from the git-go to resist being co-optedd by the enemy, and we’re not that mature yet.
Laying a parliamentary system of multiple parties on a winner takes all US system is not easy.
I don’t believe it can work as distinct parties, but if redesigned as caucuses within a party the idea of joining with other caucuses to get the right direct of a party makes a lot of sense.
But that means joining with Tea Party libertarian on ending war – as logical as that sounds – is not possible unless the progressive and the Tea Party libertarian both get elected to something. You are not going to get both into a new party that wins power against the GOP or the Dems.
I have had the same discussions at church that you appear to be having, and at church diverse folks can agree – but they agree on say ending the war, and then disagree in the voting booth because there are more than one issue when you enter the voting booth.
It wasn’t that people here are all talk and no action. That accusation has been made by others, but it is patently false.
I think that accusation is made by Trolls and reflects their hopes they are scared of us: and don’t want to believe we are real, have passion, facts and are politically active.
They don’t want to believe that the Left has been right about their predictions about everything on the war and the economy for the last ten years.
They don’t want to believe that we not them won the message war with the majority of voters on ending both wars and raising taxes on the rich instead of cutting SS and Medicare despite no MSM coverage.
Yes Jane or Marcy get on TV once in a while but not as often as Righty Bloggers with much smaller blogs.
The GOP trolls do not want to believe that if anything the comments and the diaries by us are if anything driving the front pagers more Left.
We are a real Grass Roots movement lead by the little people we don’t take orders from the front pagers and often argue with them.
The GOP blogs read talking points that every other GOPer blog and MSM talking head says the same day. The GOPer blogs don’t allow dissent freedom to try and set the agenda it may take months to get even FDLfront pagers to cover a story on a topic we like but sometimes we do. It may take longer to get the MSM to cover a story but sometimes we do.
The result we get a bigger audience as
According to the May Nielson ratings, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart beat the entire Fox News network in terms of total viewers. Stewart averaged 2.3 million viewers, while the Fox News prime time and day time line up averaged 1.85 million viewers.
Just how big is the disparity between Jon Stewart and Fox News?
Only The O’Reilly Factor (2.8 million) drew more total viewers than The Daily Show (2.3 million). Jon Stewart beat everything else on Fox News. Stewart beat Sean Hannity by 246,000 viewers. He topped Bret Baier by 399,000 viewers. Jon Stewart beat Glenn Beck by almost 500,000 viewers
Jon Stewart is on the non-prime time hour of 11 PM, yet he outdraws 2/3 of the Fox News prime time line up, and he has more viewers the entire FNC prime time and daytime lineups combined. Only Bill O’Reilly is preventing Stewart from being more popular than every single program on Fox News.
http://www.politicususa.com/en/jon-stewart-fox-ratings
If the Daily Show ever moves to prime time imagine how many viewers they would get:) Notice Glen’s numbers were worse maybe their is a link between hate and less viewers as the economy gets worse this is a hopeful sign.
Finding out just which Fox Shows have the most hate and lies to see if this is a trend would be very interesting.
I am not sure where to look for those numbers any tips?
I won’t watch Fox News to do that research though unless Jane pays me though paid Front Pagers have to earn their cash.
FDL, on the whole, is not interested in discarding the old two-party system and building something new and better.
I disagree read the diaries and comments the grassroots is leading the front pagers on this but thats how it should be in a real grass roots movement.
“I’m confused, wasn’t the point of the ‘primary Obama’ movement to take back the Democratic Party for progressives.”
That is still within the old two-party system and not building something new.
I do on a regular basis.
As always thank you for your comment and interest.
Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion. It’s funny, though, how many other “progressives, liberals, democrats” whatever label you choose, think FDL is thoroughly anti-Obama and anti-Democrat and determined to start a doomed-to-fail third party.
Both things can’t be true.
I find a pretty wide range of political opinion here. If some point of view is being suppressed, as some claim(not referring to Jim here), it sure isn’t obvious.
Two months isn’t much time to expect to see a third-party imovement rise up in a system 2-centuries-plus old. Ah, youth and its impatience…I remember it well. (withdrawn if that’s an old photo up there at the top, but you look very young.)
Recommended.
Good to see your here and you make some very interesting points.
I enjoy reading a diversity of opinions. Don’t want to get all goose-steppy.
Thanks for having the courage to write this.
“And people who can’t read, comprehend and understand that are indeed asses.”
Good boy, good boy.
Now that you have done your master’s bidding you can put your collar back on and wait for the next time they call upon your manifold talents.
Be true to yourself and please keep posting. I know I’ll never get a FDL Front Page, and I expect to be banned some day. So what.
I’ve gone past you, I openly advocate voting for Republicans because I honestly believe without a strong Progressive Leader, Democratic programs and issues are safer with a Republican President (Republican Triangulation for Independents).
I disagree with the 3rd Party ideal because I don’t think it will ever work but I no longer blame Independents for Bush-Gore2000. I believe Progressive must take back the Democratic Party from Clinton/Obama DLC Manchurian Republicans. We must start by removing Barack Obama or letting him lose, and we must be publicly recognized as the cause of his defeat.
Rec’d
Not a single installment of “UnCommon Ground” was promoted to the front page, and the boss herself expressed skepticism at the idea of a third-party movement the one time I succeeded in receiving a comment from her.
Jane is great I love that we do get a voice here. We were probably the first Lefty blog to go anti Obama and it was the commetors that drove that position.
Even Jesus had to die before he got real change to happen in his society.
First the Jews 40 years later had to be scattered by the destruction of Jerusalem for his message to spread.
With luck we stop the destruction of America or America turning into a wage slave plantation and a 2nd rate power and we all go home in a few years after effecting minor changes like creating jobs, fixing the economy, National Healthcare, reform of Wallstreet, ending both wars and avoiding new wars for a generation.
Then America can carry on its way being a first rate power. We want to go home we don’t want to feel we have to be here fighting all the time because things are bad and getting worse.
We don’t want to have to try and take over. Given Fox News ratings trend we very well might win but who wants the hassle of revolution to effect needed change.
Other Western Countries have National Healthcare. China is beating us economically because their government is spending tons to create jobs. 10 years of war is enough cutting my SS and Medicare to keep fighting these wars is to much the majority of voters agree with us.
We are really not asking for much just for America to move forward like Europe and China have.
If we don’t move forward we move backwards and as our economy shrinks because of the effect of no jobs on a consumer economy, the expense of private healthcare vs National Healthare on that economy, the less consumer demand we can expect from SS and Medicare effecting the economy.
Never mind the cost of 2 wars.
well yeah, that’s why it is a smaller goal than redesigning the whole system.
Don’t get me wrong, i am in favor getting rid of the two party system, i was just arguing pragmatism, do the smaller goals first, then move onto the bigger ones. I thought that was the point of the “primary Obama” movement, to do the more reachable goal first.
I won’t have much to do with either legacy party. They both suck and their candidates nearly always suck. I post here because the site as a whole 1) supports some — most or all — of the movements I support and 2) it does lean towards rebuilding the leftwing of the Democratic Party. This slant, assuming it exists, might be the right one to have, although I doubt it very much. But, that point aside, I have chosen to converse with the people who sit near to the inner-outer divide. My reason: It makes no sense to talk with an audience composed of true believers.
i disagree too, but:
There now i agree with it, but would add: Don’t give up.
Personally I feel issue reform should be where the real focus is. End the wars and U.S. imperialism, change campaign financing, abolish the central bank, things that would take down the oligarchy. A third party effort seems like it would just take toolong.
You know you’ll never get banned around here for your opinion, no one ever has. The only way to get banned is to be such an disruptive ass that there is no other choice.
Bin you and I don’t agree on much but you are welcome to write here and to agree or disagree with any of the members of the community.
Um there are a ton of diaries that never see the FDL FP. But UnCommon ground got the FP of MyFDL a lot and that is more than many posters get
Jim,
Welcome back to FDL, I hope you stay and contribute.
WRT starting a NATIONAL third party, your post failed imho to address the basic electoral issues, such as getting a candidate on a ballot. Until you understand the inherent problems and costs associated with getting a candidate on a ballot in a GENERAL election, I’m going to take you as well-meaning, but not serious.
What I’m trying to do here is elevate the level of discourse about starting a third-party. I listed some of the immediate obstacles I see in the post below.
http://my.firedoglake.com/booradley/2011/07/08/piss-off-obama-join-fdl-for-45year/
I look forward to your response.
The implication is that you were an employee of FDL with management responsibilties. You never were, Jim.
Jason Rosenbaum, Rayne and Bill Egnor all put your posts on the front page of MyFDL (not the main page) until you left. I don’t recall your posts ever being on the main page of FDL, though one of the editors may have promoted one at sone time or another. But you never had front page posting privileges. There is no conspiracy.
The “about me” section of your profile page says:
http://my.firedoglake.com/members/justjim73/profile/
You are not an assistant editor of MyFDL, Jim. You need to take that down.
While I’m glad to see you back, appreciate your efforts like those of all MyFDL diarists and hope you continue, you need to correct the inaccuracies both in this post and on your bio page about your relationship to the site or we will have to remove it and revoke your posting privileges.
If you refuse to admit that FDL still doesn’t even have a “tell-a-friend” feature, does that make you an ass? Oh, excuse me, I meant to write, does that make you an ass? Although FDL shines in the reporting area, it doesn’t even do easy stuff to expand it’s readership.
As for organizing activists into any sort of potent, electoral force, I don’t see that, at all. Feel free to provide us with links that show otherwise. And please don’t forget to give us a headcount and URL of this FDL-inspired movement.
FDL tried – to it’s credit – to at least send $$ the way of progressive Democratic candidates, via Accountability Now. However, FDL doesn’t push this, on a regular basis. Why isn’t there a prominent link to Accountability Now showing on every page?
I recently suggested the FDL partner with PDA, in A PDA Success Story (FDL bigwigs, take note). If FDL was a dynamo of political activism, I’d feel confident that they’d give serious thought to my suggestion.
Alas, I feel no such confidence. I’m not picking on FDL – I really don’t see the sort of activism I would have hoped for, from any major political blog, anywhere.
Seconded disagree with the ideas bring facts if you think someone is wrong prove it.
I think FDL should go more Left I agree with that point. I think Jim is wrong about us not supporting a third party and supporting Obama because the GOp is worse.
Everyone I talk to here seems to favor not voting Dem voting third party unless they got a real Lefty to support next election.
Nobody seems to say yes I will vote Obama next election. Nobody wants to say I will choose the lesser of 2 evils.
We used to say the more extreme the GOP becomes the stronger the Dems get.
The Dems think they are the only game in town and we will support them because the GOP is so scary.
The Dems lost Ted Kennedy’s seat thinking that.
The Dems only hope is that the Tea Baggers are getting betrayed on the debt limit something their guys are pushing and that the cuts in SS and Medicare effect their Tea Bagger supporters personally and are not popular.
This election seems to me a race to see which side can piss off their supporters the most and get their side to stay home on election day.
Its not logical and we very well might see both the Dems and GOP explode I predict the Tea Baggers will form a third party before we do if Michelle or Sarah don’t get at least the VP slot.
If Obama agrees to SS and Medicare cuts then we will form a third party first.
doremus, for the last few years, I’ve kicked in $20/month to FDL.
How much do you contribute?
I have to say, Kelly, that I find you one of the most consistently cranky people here. The site seems to appreciate you, but I find your pit-bull behavior annoying as all giddy-up.
not true. please don’t rewrite history.
“But that means joining with Tea Party libertarian on ending war – as logical as that sounds – is not possible unless the progressive and the Tea Party libertarian both get elected to something. You are not going to get both into a new party that wins power against the GOP or the Dems.”
That’s not really true. First of all, as our Tea Party friends have shown, showing up during primaries, in force, can give an otherwise insulated incumbent much to think about, and in fact, alter their behavior. And that’s even without even winning the primary.
So, you could have odd-bedfellows coalitions agreeing to, e.g, put real pressure on warmongering incumbents, in both D and R dominated districts. In D dominated districts, the R-leaning members of the coalition register as Democrats. In R dominated districts, the D-leaning members of the coaltion register as Republicans.
If you lean progressive/Democrat, and live in a strongly Republican district, nothing you do is going to make much of a difference on the Democratic side of the primary street, anyway. See Wanted: Republicans who plan to sell off CA and NY, to pay the national debt
The “overnight” thing is important. Americans have gotten used to everything happening “right now,” “yesterday,” etc but for the most part are not willing to engage in the tedious work necessary to bring something like a 3rd party to fruition. The Greens are a great example. Once Nader took his interests elsewhere the Greens have languished.
Look no further than the buildup to the 2010 elections and, to a lesser degree, the elections in 2008. The calls for a 3rd party were all over FDL but afik nothing ever came of all that rhetoric.
I’d certainly welcome a 3rd party, but it must be a real alternative to the neoliberal/neoconservative ideals of our current 2-party system.
One thing people must not only realize but accept is that building a viable 3rd party that can compete nationally isn’t going to happen in time for the 2012 elections, or 2014 and probably 2016. Movements in individual states may see some success in the next 4 or 5 years but it’s going to take money, lots of money, and effort, lots of that too.
Damn editing. Only the word “real” at the beginning of the italicized text was meant to be italicized.
Tell a friend would be helped if with the tell a friend your comments were a different color so your friends can read your stuff without combing the entire thread.
Numbered comments in the diaries would be cool too FDL works on stuff and improves all the time keep mentioning your idea so the powers that be notice it.
I don’t see Jim as attacking FDL he wants more change we all feel slighted when our ideas don’t get more front page time but given the number of topics we can’t all get front paged.
Jane might disagree with pushing a third party now openly but she is letting us talk about it the Righty Blogs would ban him in a second.
Given enough time and if we win over enough people on the issue I am confident we will get front paged coverage on forming a third party particularly if the Dems blow the next election which they seem intent on doing.
I disagree with Jim that FDL might have been trying to stop this issue’s coverage every commentor initiated issue starts as lone voices in the diaries.
I disagree with Kelly about FDL there are some issues we should be covering more especially ones like forming a third party which seems to have a bunch of support here among readers.
I am confident that if we keep complaining and covering the issues we support that if we can change enough readers minds and get front page coverage.
I am glad Jim decided to come back and keep trying. I can understand the frustration of seeing well argued, well sourced posts on issues that have lots of reader support not frontpaged in favor of well lets face it not every front page post is better than the diaries on the same day by commentors that don’t get front paged.
Still I choose to work in the system because I have confidence in the system that it can change.
Nothing ever changes if you stop complaining invention happens as long as people can complain and think they can change things.
Saying things are all right as they are kills invention hard work and idea on how to change things are needed for invention.
The Righty Blogs and MSM lose readers/viewers because they stop change FDL grows because Jane lets us talk about most anything even though our bitching about evertyhing I’m sure brings her down.
But from bitching, hard work and new ideas we create change.
A third party is change and increasingly it seems to be more needed.
Gotta go
Boo, I’m not sure what your question is about, but I would like to volunteer this:
There seem to be a considerable amount of people here who seriously can’t afford to contribute money. I’m one, and feel glad to be able to keep my Internet alive. I like to think that my posts, and cross-posting them have plenty of ‘in-kind contribution’ value.
So to me, it’s the wrong challenge if we really have any belief that we are all in this together, trying to fight our ways out of a metaphorical wet paper bag about to get hit with a sledge-hammer.
This business does not make a profit. We pay almost everything we bring in out in salaries to the people who work here, and if we brought in more, we’d pay them more. The rest goes to keeping the site going. I don’t receive a salary. We’ve written about it many times, and you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Welcome back my brother in Christ. I know that when we put faith in men will always lose.I was a fanatic for Perot and was suicidal when he dropped out in August only to drop back in thereby assuring the degenerate`s election and more war mongering. We have had 18 constant years of having to kill people for some real good reason or some real bad reason. Not to scare you to death but you are fast becoming my clone. You refuse to accept the lesser of two evils when the result is always evil. As Victor Laslo said to Rick Blaine , ” Welcome back to the fight.”Zenostoa
“How much do you contribute?”
Might I inquire as to what would possibly prompt you to go down the above pecuniary road?
Is this a mine is bigger than yours contest?
Or perhaps you are equating pecuniary generosity with loyalty, and patriotism, and the American progressive way.
Maybe you feel that he/she who contributes more has earned the divine right to sit closer to the ear of ‘god’.
FWIW: I sure hope you are not expensing your contributions to FDL on 1040 Sch. A.
szielinski,
Your comment lacks credibility at the state and local levels. Among other issues, I invite you to evaluate Dems in heavy D+ districts/states differently than Dems who are in swing districts/states.
Russ Feingold, the only member of either party to vote against the initial passage of the Patriot Act, lost in Wisconsin to a guy whose only success in life was marrying the daughter of a billionaire.
Hey Jim,
I understand your sentiments. It’s very frustrating. I think most here including myself are done with the lesser of 2 evils choice.
That said, why not work on supporting exixting liberal 3rd parties like Green, Peace & Freedom, or Socialist. I’m a registered Green. I realized that the dems are far too corrupt to even consider they will ever change what they are.
FDL is one of the few sites that IMO is locked into the dem or bust mindset. Believe me I see and hear plenty of that at DailyKos, Thom Hartmann, etc. Hope you stick around.
The DLC took over the Dems with cold, hard, cash – then welded the door shut behind them. I’d love to be wrong about this, but I just don’t think it will ever be possible for progressives to take it back, while cash is king.
Quit trying to move Jim over to the dark side of the force. He needs and so do you to join me with the Pauls, America`s holy warriors for peace.Zenostoa
dore,
What would be the point of 501c3 for an organization that does political advocacy. Only wingnuts and Churches get non-profit status for political action.
You want to take up FDL real estate, to insult FDL, “….FDL is no exception…..,”
There a lot of terrific people at FDL, who can’t afford to contribute.
Given your background in teaching English Literature, my guess is that you can afford $45/year to fund your own jabs.
If you can’t, try posting some diaries at MYFDL. Traffic matters. You’re a terrific writer.
Always nice to see you shattering the self-fulfilling illusions some individuals have constructed to give their existence meaning and relevance.
I think all progresives have one critical desire in common:
To bring comfort to the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. (credit: Stanley Kramer’s ‘Inherit the Wind’)
Oh, hi wendy. It is a good day when I have had the pleasure of indulging in your thoughts.
The issue of a third party has lots of support I don’t disagree with Jane not front paging the issue I do think this issue will get more attention and support if Obama cuts SS and Medicare or if we lose big next election.
I trust we will get front page coverage then.
I see no problem with pushing an issue Bill and everyone wonders why they don’t get front paged for some diary they wrote yes we can’t all be front pagers but then again some complaints are to be expected that goes with the territory.
Jane’s comments downthread about Jim not being an FDL employee are valid but side step the issue Jim is pushing.
It is a big issue I can’t off hand think of a single person here happy with Obama now.
If we are not happy a third party becomes an option.
We did the work despite the Media ignoring us the majority of voters support our position on higher taxes for the rich rather than cutting SS and Medicare and ending both wars.
But we can’t get Obama to change his mind do we give him more time? Form a third party? Just what are our other options Bill? I can’t think of any but wait more for Obama to change his mind or form a third party.
List the options the pros and cons and lets debate this on a front page thread so we get more reader feed back. Maybe someone can think of other options to pressure Obama I am out of ideas.
Am I asking to much? for FDL to have a debate?
Gotta go serious running out of power:)
Jane, the ‘assistant editor’ privilege was at MyFDL, not capitalized, and like Jim, I could promote and edit there, although very seldom did unless asked to. I think he meant not to assume any position, but had a somewhat undefined role. Jim was not meaning to make himself out to be anything except a minor player, I am sure.
The Pauls “holy warriors for peace”? Really? Man you need to share what you are smoking
Cash is king. It’s a huge obstacle we face. That, and the huge corporate megaphone (FOXNews and the rest of the corporate media).
But that obstacle is there whether we try to run progressive Dems, or run progressives in another party. Having another party is not a solution to that particular problem. (we have several “third parties” that have not gotten past that obstacle).
What we need is progressive candidates that speak sane ideas to power (over the corporate money, and corporate media). I personally think having a credible primary challenger would be good place to do that, because Obama will be hard pressed not to have debates.
Wendy: See my comment at 8:45 am.
Are you sure we are not siblings of different parents?
The Democratic and Republican Parties both combine to make the two-party trap set for working people; Wall Street assigns each a slightly different role to accomplish its goals and objectives but as we can see the goals and objectives are the same when it comes to these dirty wars and financing them through austerity measures.
History has proven the only time people begin to break free from this two-party trap is when people are in motion defending their rights and their livelihoods and the left brings forward an agenda both liberals and progressives are willing to come together around in support and in the process convince significant numbers of conservatives that they have been wrong in their thinking— thus bringing them to support a People’s Front agenda which often initiates the kind of discussion and dialog required to create an alternative political party capable of challenging Wall Street for power.
Let’s be realistic here; we aren’t simply talking about another party in addition to the Democrats and Republicans— we are talking about finding a way to challenge Wall Street for power.
We need to look at what Canadian working people have accomplished through their socialist New Democratic Party which is the official party of the Canadian labour movement including the Canadian Labour Congress including all of its affiliated unions… including those “international” unions based here in the United States.
We also need to look very closely at the most successful third party initiative that has ever developed here in the United States: The socialist Minnesota Farmer-Labor Party that elected two socialist governors, members of of the U.S. House and Senate a majority in the Minnesota State House and almost won a majority in the Minnesota State Senate as well as majorities on dozens of county commissions and city councils across the state. We have been robbed of this history for a reason— it sends shivers down the spines of the Wall Street coupon clippers.
If anyone wants a good book to read about what, and how, the New Democratic Party of Manitoba has done to improve the lives of working people I would highly suggest reading the new book, “Keep True, a life in politics” by Howard Pawley who had to deal with many of the issues we here in the United States are trying to grapple with. Find out what a working class based people’s party can accomplish.
Major correction. I meant to say, FDL is one of the few sites that IMO is NOT locked into the dem or bust mindset.
oopsie
If you only knew the power, of the dark side!
Three questions that aren’t being addressed enough:
1. How do you create an alternative to the current “two” party system, so that there is an acceptable choice that functions in the public interest? (e.g., try to transform one of the parties? create a third? function outside that system in an independent movement?)
2. What role can/should progressive blogs play to help decide that and then bring this about?
3. Does FDL have a unique role in that? What should be it’s mission statement?
Anyone who thinks the “regulars” have not been focused on trying to answer those question has not been paying attention.
Jane Hamsher:
I wish you and the site no ill will whatsoever.
I was stating a fact of business, and considering the 20+ years I have been a consultant for those wishing to form a business entity, I was merely stating what many would consider the reality of business.
But when new facts or circumstances are presented by reliable sources, I am always ready to amend or augment my opinions.
As always, your input and feedback are valued and appreciated.
Stan
Those “conditions” have increased because both parties represent the same special interests of corporations and the powerful elite. Social issues are fought or lost depending upon whether there is a profit to be made or lost (or a particular politician can remain in office by promoting that social issue – i.e. used for political purposes). On occasion it’s because a particular religious group decides to impose their authoritarian judgements on everyone else in our society. Bottom line, our system has two parties representing one interest. That certainly does not make a democracy. Far too many people believe that being allowed to “vote” for our politicians in government proves that we are a democracy. But, the choice between two candidates which represents the same special interests does NOT make a democracy.
You know it! I am resurrecting my dog with it as we speak! Padmae is next!
There is constant beating of the corporate mass media drum that political debate outside the boundaries of the carefully maintained “red vs. blue” is not allowed. Any discussions of topics of subjects outside those boundaries is instantly shouted down as “crazy talk” and “conspiracy theories.”
I’m convinced something about that constant drumbeat works against individuals who have reasonable questions the wish to ask. Something recent research about brain function shows makes it especially difficult to individuals to challenge peer pressure.
Why would a discussion about vaccine safety, for example, be so off limits? Seems reasonable to want to ensure something all our kids take would be safe. Right? That discussion is not allowed in the United States today. “Crazy talk!”
I think some of the burnout some of us feel sometimes is that mass media drumbeat against individuals straying against peer pressure outside the lines of marked path where discussions are allowed to take place.
I submit that this site is where one comes to expose the gimcrack or gewgaw of the injustice so-called modern day Templar’s.
I tried to address points 1 and 2 above here.
To reiterate, we technically have multiple parties. The problem isn’t with the number of parties per say, but with the huge cash advantage of the main two. And with the corporate media that reinforces a pro-corporate narrative.
To transform “the system” (rather than the number of parties), we need to speak a more sane narrative to power (over the corporate money, and the corporate media’s narrative). The internet, and the blogs are our best resource to do that. (i also personally think, if we can get a major primary challenger to Obama, he would be forced to debate, and that would be a platform to get our voice heard).
I think that addresses the first two points. Onto the third, FDL seems to be one of the few places that recognizes that Obama continually reinforces pro-corporate propaganda (and makes pro-corporate policy!). We need to keep pointing that out, and speaking truth to power.
If Ron Paul were president today, would we be in Iraq, Affghanistan,Liyba,Germany, Korea,Diego Garcia,the Balkans and about 100 other assorted dung heaps where we send our soldiers? We might be broke and in a God-awful depression,but at least we wouldn`t be apologing nightly for the kids we have burned up by errant drones. Zenostoa
His profile says he’s an “assistant editor” at FDL. He is not. By his own admission he hasn’t been here for six months.
He refers to “FDL” in the diary again and again, so I’m less concerned with intuiting what he “meant” than what he said.
MyFDL is a reader forum and we allow a lot of different views to be expressed here and when someone take issue with any of them, we can honestly say that they do not represent any FDL editorial position. If someone is saying they have a role here when they do not, then we will be held responsible for what they say, and the whole concept of MyFDL (and the freedom we allow people to speak what is on their mind) is in jeopardy.
Jim needs to correct his post and his bio as soon as possible, or we will be forced to remove his account.
I submit that this site is where one comes to expose the gimcrack or gewgaw and the injustice of so-called modern day Templar’s.
Jim
I hear ya. However here at least the voices of building an opposition to the corporate corrupted, pro-war two party system are allowed.
I have been kicked off of Common Dreams, Op Ed News, TruthOut and even TruthDig (till I created enough of a public stink to be allowed to comment again) for daring to discuss this as an issue. As for Daily KOS forget them and Huff Post forget them AND they have a cyber picket line that I will not cross.
On Air America, I called the Big Eddie show and stated that they were Obama/Dem apologists after putting my Trade Union and anti-war creds out there (which are extensive). The right wingers who called before me got 5 minutes to talk.. I got 5 seconds and was hung up in in mid sentence.
I recommend this site to any and all that will listen. As well as NPA.
Michael Cavlan RN
Candidate US Senate 2012
Minnesota
Minnesota Open Progressives
Running against a very Blue Dog Dem in a state with a very rich history of left wing third party successes.
I agree with all you said, but in response to the vaccine question, is that was a big topic of discussion 5 to 10 years ago, but it has since been learned that the one study that brought safety into question is not know to have been faulty at best, and probably fabricated. And many other studies have shown that that studies conclusions were wrong.
So the short answer is not that talking about vaccine safety is off-limits, its that it has now been mostly refuted.
But i do agree with your general point of the media dismissing any comment that is not in the red vs. blue narrative.
*now known*, not “not know”
Maybe the Obamabots don’t have as much traction here anymore because to be one indicates:
a. You are either a complete party loyalist above all else who chooses not to be informed on what is really happening.
OR
b. You agree with the neo-liberal policies of President Obama.
OR
c. While you may not agree with decisions made by Obama, you will defend them because you see no other choice than the “lesser of two evils”.
Option a would suggest you are lazy or have cognitive dissonance. Option b definitely says you are not a “progressive”. Option c indicates you want to maintain the status quo which continues this country with basically two parties – one interest.
Without some real movement to change the current system by citizens, whether a major third party results or a complete overhaul of our electoral system takes place, we can expect the current system to work against us. We are already seeing that our government (which is SUPPOSED to represent the citizens) ignores the majority of people on numerous issues from ending wars to cuts in the social safety net. This will only get worse as the years go by if the best we can do is decide every two to four years, “well who is the lesser of two evils this year”.
I haven’t seen that sort of thing much around here.
Jane Hamsher running this site to make money?
chuckle.
yeah, accurately and pointedly criticizing the powers that be, right to the very top, is a surefire way to make big coin in her neck of the woods.
Based on what I have seen, in her writing, and tv appearances, she is an eloquent defender of and spokesperson for the people that don’t have much, if any, money.
‘Allo, guvner!. Always a pleasure to ‘ave you indulge in me thoughts, as if they amounted to more than a hill ‘o beans!
And, may Oy say that I do soo admoire your take on the de facto Progressive Mission Statement. Oy like ta think o’ meself as ‘afflicting the com-fortable’; and ‘aving a good time doing it. ;o)
The grassroots Tea Party may have originated thinking they were representing “individuals”, but the bottom line is they reflect the same interests of the corporate and wealthy elite…namely, less government, less taxes, and privatization of public assets. They will be “allowed” to remain because they provide a visual group of citizens who promote corporate interests.
*heh* Boo, I want to see a Doremus I/P myFDL diary, extolling all of Israel’s shining virtues…! ;-)
Boo:
Thank you for your overly generous compliment.
I have no ax, per se, to grind with you.
I just felt that of the many questions you or anyone else might want to ask me, a discussion of money and generosity would not appear on anyone’s list.
And regarding your statement” “you want to take up FDL real estate, to insult FDL, “…FDL is no exception…”, the truth be told, unless we, the commenters, “…take up FDL real estate…” there is no FDL.
And what to some might be viewed as an insult, is to others merely the laughter of the ‘gods’.
If you cloned the horses in a race, would it still be a horse race?
And yes indeed, there are many very bright, accomplished individuals here at FDL and I usually find it a pleasure to be in their intellectual company: hell, in many ways you guys/gals are the only ones to and with whom it is worth listening and conversing.
Regarding the writing of a diary, I have given a lot of thought to doing so. I’m still thinking.
I would also direct you to wendsdavis’ heartfelt comment(s) for an honest evaluation of the way things really are for too many FDLers.
Obviously these comments speak for themselves regarding FDL and its full time employees: Who can say that this site does not allow for a diversity of opinion and still keep a straight face?
As for Democrat, progressive, liberal etc. There are many different opinions of these political approaches discussed on this site.
And as long as so many have thrown their two bits into the conversation here is mine regarding political party and 2012. I think that candidates who stand for change and representation of the majority would have a better chance at running and winning in 2012 if they ran as Independents.
If you call yourself a Democrat, progressive, liberal, democratic socialist, etc. you automatically have a lot of resistance to overcome from winning over people from the right and the middle who are as disgusted with what is happening in DC as you and I are.
I think that 2012 will be the year of the Independent AND as voters we will need to ask a lot of questions regarding the candidates. Just because someone says they are a Democrat, or a progressive or an Independent, it does not follow that they fit your definition of the term–just ask the folks in Wisconsin.
Enough of my two bits. FDL is a highly diversified community and a lot of great ideas are presented here. No we don’t all agree, but that is not the goal. The goal is to discuss and disagree until we work out great solutions. When people stop discussing things, it’s all over. As long as we are still talking AND walking there is hope.
Make that ‘wendydavis’.
Cheers.
Busted.
If I ever get burnt out and make an exit, I may try a similar tactic like Jim has tried here to announce my return. He alleges FDL isn’t a place for challenging the Democratic Party and showing independent politics. He suggests it is not the place for launching a new movement (to which I ask, what the hell is this?).
It doesn’t seem like any FDL editor did anything to stifle this organic development. And, I think the ability of this group to form speaks to what makes this site a great place to convene and discuss issues and deliberate over what actions to take to address key problems in society.
It’s well known that Democratic Party politics is free of cronyism, corruption and mendacity when practiced at that state and local levels.
Are we related progressives separated by a common language?
Hey kiddo! How are tricks?
And just think: take a mountain of beans and rice and maize and a little chocolate mixed with chili and you have the economic basis of Mesoamerica.
Never underestimate the power of beans!
Somehow that just didn’t come out right, and oops I did it again. :>)))))
If Ron Paul were president there’d be no department of Ed, no Social Security, no unemployment insurance,
So what if he is an isolationist? That does not automatically make him a better person to be president
I’ll say it again. No one has been banned for their views. The way they express their views, yes, but the views themselves? I stand by the fact that no on has been banned for that.
We’ve had Republican Party officials post the standard line here. They were not banned.
We don’t ban people for their views. Period.
Hey tut! Always nice to see you on the prowl. Kill anything interesting lately? (figuratively of course, like a glass of beer or a good joke).
Actually, I was considering a diary on astronomy or professional racing bicycles.
I leave all of the propagandizing on the I/P issue to those who specialize in such matters.
By the way, met any good trolls lately to spice up your preaching to the choir?
Kevin
Agreed. That is why I recommend firedoglake on the last few remaining “progressive” blogs that I am allowed to post at.
As well as NPA
Thank You FDL for being democratic enough for allowing this discussion.
Thanks for the link Kevin. I just joined NPA.
As a youth, I was involved with the Socialist Workers Party in Philadelphia: picketing George Lincoln Rcokwell and his Nazis at the opening of Exodus at the Boyd Theater (and then we were rounded up by mounted policemen), carrying signs in front of the WH to save the Rosenbergs, sitting through meetings where guys with Russian accents and beards explained the flaws of capitalism, and generally enjoying a small, European-style group that argued economics, history and philosophy as it related to the working class.
A third or fourth party may not “win” elections, but it can have lasting impact on the actions of the victors. If influence and winners were all that mattered in life, I would be reading the big sites, slurping the Third Way juice at Politico, or snickering with Drudge, not pondering at FDL.
Being someone who does not always agree with the comments on this site, if I am on the train 60% percent of the time, and those are for the important issues, then FDL has done a good job for me.
Making money from FDL? What the evil one, Pete Peterson, spends in one day on his vast empire of sites and organizations, would probably pay for everything at FDL for a decade or two.
That’s what happens when the uninformed get excited and decide to do something.
They never had a prayer, much less a clue.
The progressives at least have the advantage on that front, in that they’ve been paying a little better attention and once they decide what to do, they’re not as likely to be sidetracked again by the Democratic machine.
It’s the deciding what to do thing that has us stymied at the moment.
That’s not surprising considering the fact that we invested so much in the whole Hopey and Changey thing.
Yes, and the Tea Party was early on co-opted by Koch funding and Murdoch/Ailes Fox PR/marketing. Tea Partiers, themselves, may wish to believe that it’s a grass-roots movement, but it no longer is at all.
Too bad… co-opted & captured & effectively muzzled by the rich and powerful, who give Tea Partiers bread & circuses rather than real reform.
I can relate to some of the sentiment in this diary. When I initially came to FDL about 2 years ago, I thought that it was about organizing the grassroots. It is about organizing, sort of. It’s about grassroots efforts, sort of. The people who run this site sometimes claim that it’s both, but then they tell those who want to participate in the strategizing and planning that, no, this site provides a forum and that those who want to advance worth grassroots efforts are on their own. At first, it irked me. But that was quite a while ago.
The recent membership drive looks like it’s an effort to increase participation, but it appears to me to be nothing more than an overly managed extension of the discussions that we have openly every day at the site and not really much of an effort to increase participation.
I think the big difference between Jim Moss and me is that I accepted FDL long ago for what it is and find value in it. If I had held on to my earliest impressions, I’d have left long ago. As it is, I know what to expect when I come to FDL. I make suggestions from time to time and don’t worry too much about whether anyone at FDL is even listening to my suggestions or anyone else’s.
Me either. Thanks for bringing that up. I think it’s specious at best to claim that happens here at FDL much.
I do see comments to that effect, but those are people posting their individual opinions here. Some are definitely of the “Republicans are worse” ilk, and they are entitled to their opinions.
In the main, I have rarely to never seen a main page post here at FDL espousing that viewpoint.
Anymore, most of the commenters gave up on that, too.
Jane,
Removing someone’s account – especially someone who’s contributed a lot to FDL – over such little nonsense seems unnecessarily harsh. A lot of people do a lot of work that has created a lot of the vitality around here, all without being paid for their work.
You’ve got the power to do remove his account. You’ve got the law to do it on your side, too. But doing it imho would reflect poorly on your judgment.
I just noticed the note you added at the top of the diary. That’s all you ever needed to do. Can you please stop threatening to remove people’s accounts over such little nonsense? It makes you look a bit petty.
Good luck with Padmae. Can’t blame ya. She was lookin’ hot :)
Maybe the whole “hopey and changey thing” was intentional to distract real progressives for another 4 to 8 years while our government is run by politicians doing the bidding of lobbyists paid for by the corporate and wealthy elite.
I undeerstand your legal position, and of course, have had to make uncomfortable decisions to protect my own integrity, too. If there’s some way I can help, I will. Jim hasn’t represented himself as in a position of authority at FDL as I see, but I’ll leave that determination to those who have to, and have very well, protected us all from repression or legal complications.
“That is why I recommend firedoglake on the last few remaining “progressive” blogs that I am allowed to post at”
I know what you mean. Several months back they banned me from Hartmann for being critical of him.
At DKos, I can no longer post there for reasons I can only assume.
Back on topic, I generally don’t expect much from blogsites with regards to actual physical organization. I expect information. The real organization requires actually going to Green, Peace & Freedom, etc meetings and becoming real memebers of these organizations!
LOL! Dunno, though, doremus…you might wanna tell me about the I/P issues you’re being challenged about. ;o) I tend to be in the camp that thinks Israel’s policies and politics are barbaric, and I take some heavy heat at other sites about it.
But in the meantime, yeppers; I find Kelly mean. And ususally for no good reason, except as a reflexive Praetorian Guard. And I’ve had my fill of that sort of commenting at other sites and other times. In fact. I’m on leave from one now. ;o)
My brother in Christ, Your return is a triumph indeed! To all who feel as Brother Jim does rise and strike.I have heard of a man who started with just a baker`s dozen and shook the world; we have far more than that. We will have one platform, no more killing without a Declaration of War and a draft that exempts nobody. As we reap an incredible benefit that the Good Man Isiah prophesid 3000 years ago; you know that thing about beating M1 Tanks into wheat combines, we can tend to the inequities created by the unholy coalition of government and big business that has plagued us since 1789.WE will enjoy a new birth of freedom and we won`t learn war anymor. Welcome James the Greater. Zenostoa
So the Democratic-controlled Senate shares the same beliefs as Ron Paul and would vote to do all those things?
imo ..the main page of the site went to shit when it did the vulcan mind meld with the “seminal” bunch .. way back whenever ..
i still come here to read TBogg and marcy .. and the early morning swim ..
third parties .. meh .. good luck with that .. vote bullmoose 2012 .. eh ??
and .. for what it’s worth .. i’m simply put off by fundamentalists putting the brand of christianity on politics of any stripe .. imo .. the blending of religion and politics is repugnant regardless of its’ political orientation and .. further .. such entanglements corrupt and cheapen any religion … again .. just my opinion ..
having typed that .. to each their own ..and ..as tennessee ernie ford used to say: “bless your little pea-pickin’ hearts” .. eh ??
I do want to say that I’ve found your currently and previously expressed comments regarding people’s financial responsibility to FDL to be rather distasteful. We do what we can. If only those who could contribute visited the site, the FDL traffic you speak of would surely slow to a trickle.
There are liability issues for FDL here and if Jim doesn’t resolve the issue quickly, we will have to terminate his account.
Pathetic Jane. Grow up.
Also, it looks like some old grievances are being aired here, no? Let’s hope that’s a Good Thing. (Ay yi yi!)
“FDL was not to become a launching site for a new type of movement.”
Perhaps not, but it’s still a good forum for your “Uncommon Ground” message in terms of the readership you’re trying to reach, don’t you think?
At this point, I am going to accept that FDL is a website with very valuable information provided by journalists or bloggers who truly DO care about the citizens in this country. It is truly difficult to find journalists who are willing to sift through the “muck” these days for the truth. So, for that reason alone, FDL gets an A++ from me. It has also been a great place for discussions. Maybe if we want to change the system itself, we need to find a “larger than life” way to do it.
SouthernDragon@9:39, very well said.
@doremus35 July 13th, 2011 at 11:22 am
Ah; I’m good enough for who I am, I guess. Bit freaked by the madness of the nation, bit depressed off and on…not much incentive to write diaries; not many care much about the stuff I care most about…so…resting, I guess.
But Mesoamerican food: Ah! I am a kick-ass traditional Mexican cook, and keep meaning to post the recipe for the (it is said) oldest recorded recipe in the Americas: Pepita sauce. Might do it one day; it might lead to less separation of progressives by the language of…Food.
‘The Power of Beans’. Wasn’t that the name of a book written by some Cajun dude named Toot Alors? ;o)
Frankly, I haven’t been repressed here at FDL, and have even enjoyed Rayne’s efforts to make clear that my opinions are my own and not the official position of FDL when I was writing my Dump Obama pieces.
The problem isn’t repression. The problem is that we’re simply having a hard time getting our shit together. The NPA has been a great help, as there is now an organized core which people can relate to, or not. We need more of that kind of effort.
Good point we did do ” something ” to get the third party, anti Obama Reputation:)
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Um there are a ton of diaries that never see the FDL FP.
I know that but the topic of of what do we do next to effect real change is the question. We worked our buts off convinced a majority of the country that both wars should end and the rich should be taxed more rather than cut SS and Medicare, we got a majority who want the government to create jobs.
We did this despite MSM coverage against our ideas. If Obama refuses to lead on issues with a majority of voters backing him then what are our options?
Third party? Wait even longer for Obama to come around, stay home election day? feel free list more options the Lake should debate where do we go from here.
If Ron were President today shop keepers could refuse me service for the color of my skin. FDA regulations would be gone and fast food joints would be serving e coli 9 even more than they already do.
Ford would never worry about the next pinto exploding. Without seat belt laws the death rate would go up.
Government regulation like the minimum wage, child labor laws would be gone, government regulations on coal mines gone.
Women equal pay, gay rights, Minority rights gone.
No government regulations means free trade Outsources more of our jobs
We had a lack of communication when The Seminal merged into FDL. I was certainly led to believe I had editorial privileges, and at one point was asked to help select diaries for promotion. For a whole year, I decided what the “Watercooler” was going to be. So we can argue technicalities, but I had a status above that of a regular member writing diaries. I had some sort of editorial/leadership role, albeit as a non-paid volunteer.
Also, I was FP’ed on the main page at least 8 to 10 times.
But that’s not my main point. My main point is that the topic of third-party/trans-partisan movement has not been put on the front page. And I want the leadership to be honest about why.
1) Encourage to not vote Republican or Democrat anymore. Hope that more and more people do it each election. Meanwhile, build alliances and structures that can eventually coalesce to field a legitimate candidate when the culture has reached the tipping point. It would help to have a billionaire or two join the cause.
2) Be more forthright about ending the two-party system – instead of trying to do the dance of criticizing the system but still benfitting from being a part of it.
3) I’m not heavily involved in this site anymore. I’m doing most of work in other places, now. I would like to see the great discussions on this topic that happen on MyFDL make it to the front.
“I think that 2012 will be the year of the Independent AND as voters we will need to ask a lot of questions regarding the candidates. Just because someone says they are a Democrat, or a progressive or an Independent, it does not follow that they fit your definition of the term–just ask the folks in Wisconsin.”
We need to be getting everything in writing from all candidates— where they are vague, get them to be more specific (in writing).
All the people in organizations of a liberal, progressive and left thinking who worked to sell Obama the first time around now seem to trying not only to re-package Obama this time around, but trying to re-package the reason for voting for him again by sucking people in by at the same time saying things like “we didn’t support Obama to do what he is doing” without telling us they intend to work for Obama’s re-election. They are pretty much running the same scam they did with single-payer health care— pretending to be for it while actually opposing it.
I think you are correct when you say “independent” will be the thing in 2012. But, how the heck do liberals, progressives and the left form any kind of electoral coalitions as “independents” when they have to stand for certain things like peace, tax-the-rich and some kind of real health care reform— either single-payer or a National Public Health Care System (preferably, in my opinion, call for single-payer universal health care as a step towards a National Public Health Care System).
I think the right-wing will probably use the claim to the hilt of being “independent;” but, independent of what? And how will voters distinguish right-wing “independents” from left-wing “independents?”
According to the polls most people in this country now consider themselves to be “independents” but this doesn’t tell us anything about what these “independent” voters are for and against while it is pretty safe to assume that a good portion of those identifying as independent” are anti-war and proponents of tax-the-rich and single-payer. By claiming to be “independent” how do you build movements around campaign themes like “tax-the-rich” which progressives are going to have to do.
Assuming you are correct, and I think you are, about this being the year of the “independent;” how do progressives take on the label of “independent” without our ideas being lost in what looks to me like a real confusing mess with “independents” for everything.
It will be very difficult for people to proclaim themselves “progressives for Obama” because he has shown himself to be so reactionary; but, it is very conceivable this time around these same people will be presenting themselves as “independents for Obama.” And Independents for the Birchite, Ron Paul, etc.
Maybe with all the “independents” there will be running around now is the time to reclaim “progressive” and restore “progressive” to its rightful place as being the meeting of the minds between liberals and the left?
I agree with you that the discussion about your status as a paid employee or non-paid volunteer with privileges or whatever is a bit of a sideshow.
But you’re drifting into nonsensical conspiracy theory territory when you start demanding to know why your third-party/trans-partisan movement stuff wasn’t FP’ed.
Other than the usual FDL Frontpagers, I don’t think there’s much grand designing over which diaries get promoted to FDL’s FP.
You are talking about your posts being put up as main posts at FDL and not about them just making it to the recommended diaries list, right?
Knox – I appreciate your comment. My context is that I was a regular writer fro The Seminal before it merged into FDL. And we definitely were, at that time, a group of people focused on building a grassroots movement, not just on having a forum for discussion of issues. My biggest frustration is the lack of communication once we moved into FDL.
For a while, the Seminal (as it was still called for the first year after the merger) maintained that same activist, movement-building flavor. But it slowly wore off over time, and when the switch to MyFDL was made (completely as a surprise to me), the old Seminal attitude was gone forever. I miss that.
Wasn’t The Seminal run by a guy named Jason who consistently shouted down anyone who didn’t get in line with the Democratic Party and who now works for the DSCC?
I just don’t remember this The Seminal flavor of which you speak.
I do admit that the changes with the switch to MyFDL, particularly to the format, have not been good.
Don’t think there’s a conspiracy – just that there’s certain topics that get a lot of backpage discussion and little or no promotion. Want to know why the editors don’t think they’re FP worthy? ANd not just my stuff – but the good writings on the topic from a lot of other folks, too.
So Kelly’s way is ok? Callin people an ass, more than once?
I began to realize my efforts were better spent in other places. My discussions here on the backpage seemed like a lot of preaching to the choir, and a lot of hoping for something to happen that wasn’t going to happen here.
So, I’m considering starting my own movement in a multi-faceted way, or perhaps searching for someone else with more means and influence whom I can join.
But I want to stay in mix here on occasion. I do seem to have a talent for generating discussion and pissing off those in charge. :)
My complaint used to be the opposite of yours.
I wasn’t so much concerned about why certain diaries didn’t get more visibility so much as I was bothered by the sense that there’s only occassional efforts to organize much of anything beyond the moment by those who make the decisions at FDL, i.e. that what they do organize tends to be limited in scope (a few notable exceptions, of course!), and the sense that those who make the decisions are a very tightly closed circle of people who can’t listen to the rest of us or just don’t want to.
I realized after a few months that FDL is what it is. You, on the other hand, seem to want it to be a force of radical change in this country, which is more than it can be.
From my perspective, what you’re complaining about is actually the result of disorganization and a lack of grander design, not a systematic effort to minimize your voice.
Vendetta? Did someone ask about a vendetta?
Naw, nothing of the kind.
But every once in a while it’s nice to see that which goes around also comes around, every once in a while.
And your statement was the comes around to a go around a while back that was unnecessary and pointless.
Otherwise it would appear that everyone around here, especially those responding to Jim’s post, are truly enamored with one another. Ain’t love grand?
You’re on lady. Someday when we are in our cups and bemoaning the fate of all mortals, we can work together to unravel that Gordian knot with a pair of tweezers.
As someone who frequently locked horns with Jason over healthcare politics, I categorically reject the characterization that he ever shouted anyone down. Despite the passions charging through this site, I found him to be consistently diplomatic and professional, albeit largely full of shit.
You categorically reject my characterization based on your experiences in dealing with him on one issue? Ok.
I recall instead his distain for and abuse of diarists and commenters who, during the Massachusetts special election to fill the seat held by Ted Kennedy, argued against supporting Coakley.
In other words, after all the arguing against sellout Democrats during the healthcare fiasco of 2009, Jason was arguing that anyone who didn’t support a sellout Democrat running for office was an idiot because, well, the alternative was worse.
Stop being angry Jim stop thinking your pissing off people in charge. This is the choir if you can’t sell the choir then who leads the choir.
Jesus is what without the 12?
Learn patience FDL is about as Left as you can go and get a big audience forget the insults look at your friends.
are you claiming to have read all the comments (including the ones promptly deleted) every time anyone has ever been banned in the entire history of fdl? unless a complete and accurate record has been kept and you have reviewed the whole thing, i don’t see how that is even possible. which would mean you know — or ought to know — that you don’t have the knowledge necessary to make the claim you are making.
i really don’t want to go down this road… and am perfectly willing to, as the saying goes, look forward and not back. but NOT if it means silent complicity while history is rewritten. if you insist, i can post evidence to contradict your claim. but please, do you really think that is the best we could do for either fdl or for the issues we both care about? i don’t.
I think the problem in general is the constantly transitory state of dialogue on a site like this. I sometimes wonder if the people who actually run the site are of one mind, and if that mind is no longer well-aligned with the majority of the members. This doesn’T matter, so long as no attempts are made to force the narrative from the top. I sometimes worry that FDL could one day in the future, reveal itself to be what I term a “sheep herding” operation, but I tend to doubt that. The debate remains open, which is the most important thing. And I think FDL will never be a place which will specifically advocate anything on the level of national political parties any more. If it sticks to pressuring on specific issues – Bradley Manning is the best example – and remains known as also being a place where debate is open and perhaps a majority of the people who read and comment favour forming a third party, then that’s okay. There’s probably no need and no point to FDL specifically advocating for and organising that third party in the end. The only other problem comes when single issue advocacy means “lying down with dogs (or better, Congresspigs) and catching fleas”. That’S nasty, and on the one hand you can argue, what else can one do, but on the other, you can equally argue, what’S the point? I think that may be where many of the tensions on the site come from.
Really? He abused diarists? He called them idiots? He attacked people, not just their views? Link?