By blogging on a certain website, we help to legitimize its viewpoint. We generate advertising revenue for the site through our own hits and through hits that are a result of responses to our posts from others. We contribute to any reputation the site may have for being especially renowned and important. We contribute to the personal reputation of its editors and founders and help their voice extend further and sound louder than it might if we stayed away. In exchange, we get a place to share our views and learn about others.
I’ve reluctantly come to the conclusion that the views being presented right now on health care at Daily Kos are, at least at this time, doing more harm than good in the fight for reform. First among my concerns is the total failure by the editors to promote any kind of national health care system, which could but does not necessarily have to be Medicare for All. Given public opinion polling showing that a majority of the public probably would favor Medicare for All given the choice, the current monotone focus on the public option is simply a red herring that does more to hurt the fight for real reform than to help it. Secondly, even this focus is not what it claims to be. As Kip Sullivan has said, it’s a “bait and switch.”
The fundamental question is: why is a blog that claims to be “from a liberal perspective” not strongly promoting a national health care system given public opinion statistics like those currently in America? Isn’t liberalism supposed to be defined with respect to public opinion? If not, then who should define it? The word statistics I wrote about a few months ago are unchanged at best, with stories by the editors mentioning “public option” outnumbering those mentioning “single payer” or “Medicare for All” by over ten to one.
There are all sorts of arguments that can be made to defend this. For example, take editor DemFromCT, who in the comments to my above post said:
But what of it? Health reform is a rich, complex tapestry and you want to reduce it to a single thread of “liberal vs right”.
It is true that health reform is complex. I for one have become increasingly aware that health insurance reform by itself is not all of health care reform, because there’s also reform on the provider side. And Medicare for All is not the only way to implement national health care. But none of this is relevant here, because the Daily Kos editors are not focusing on any other way to do it. They’re just focusing on the public option, and that is not anything even remotely close to a viable alternative.
My assessment of Daily Kos is that, while it is certainly a Democratic blog, it has no claim to being a liberal or progressive blog on health care. In fact, don’t take my word for it. Take its founder’s:
This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we’re all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN’s Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we’re around here and we’re proud. But it’s not a liberal blog.
Most Congressional Democrats do not favor a national health care system, including everyone from the “conservatives” to the “liberals” that Markos Moulitsas names above. But most of the public probably does, so when push comes to shove, one has to choose between being more Democratic and being more progressive. You can’t be both on this issue. Daily Kos is firmly Democratic.
And I can see the utility of that. Thinking independently doesn’t win you many friends. If Daily Kos did embrace national health care and strongly criticized Congressional Democrats on health care policy, as would then become logical, then its status as being the biggest political blog on the net would likely be over. Does anyone think that Countdown would really have Markos Moulitsas on as much, or maybe even at all, if he started focusing on national health insurance? Would the corporate media, and also Democratic establishment groups like Campaign for America’s Future and the rest of the HCAN/Herndon Alliance crowd cite the blog as much? Perhaps even more pressing, would national Democratic politicians like John Kerry, Howard Dean, Barack Obama, or Chuck Schumer ever post there? Of course not! They would run for the hills. That would be it! Daily Kos has every reason to align with elected Democrats on issues. It would make absolutely zero sense, from a narrow self-interested perspective, to make a serious break with them on the huge issue that health care is right now.
Also worth noting is editor BarbinMD’s reply to a sharply critical post of mine about their coverage:
First, this is a Democratic blog and we’re dealing with the reality of what’s currently happening in Washington.
You seem to be missing what this place is about – the editors aren’t the leaders, everyone who participates here is. If you have an issue that you care about, you write about it, you don’t tell other people what they should be writing about.
She’s right in her first judgment. It’s a Democratic blog and will therefore not stray too far from whatever the Democratic consensus in Washington is. Ever expecting wholesale criticism of that consensus was indeed naive of me.
But where she’s wrong is to say that everyone who participates in the blog are leaders. The FAQ should disabuse us of that:
No. Daily Kos is owned by Kos. The servers are his. He pays the bandwidth charges. He makes the rules; we are here as his guests. If he decides tomorrow that anyone not posting in iambic pentameter will be banned, your options are either to brush up on your poetry skills or find/start another forum.
More specifically, Kos is the leader. He has set up Daily Kos with a certain purpose, and given the editors a prominent voice through the front page. So I was imprecise in saying that the editors are the leaders; in reality Kos is the leader. And it was indeed foolish and naive of me to ever think that talking to the editors would make any difference in the blog’s agenda, because they don’t make the rules. I apologize for that naivete.
To see how unflinching Daily Kos is at sticking to the elected Democratic consensus, also consider that the whole public option idea is not even remotely close to what its defenders and most elected Democrats make it out to be. To understand why, check out Kip Sullivan’s bait and switch piece from a few months ago. Because this is so important, I’ll quote a few paragraphs:
The people who brought us the “public option” began their campaign promising one thing but now promote something entirely different. To make matters worse, they have not told the public they have backpedalled. The campaign for the “public option” resembles the classic bait-and-switch scam: tell your customers you’ve got one thing for sale when in fact you’re selling something very different.
When the “public option” campaign began, its leaders promoted a huge “Medicare-like” program that would enroll about 130 million people. Such a program would dwarf even Medicare, which, with its 45 million enrollees, is the nation’s largest health insurer, public or private. But today “public option” advocates sing the praises of tiny “public options” contained in congressional legislation sponsored by leading Democrats that bear no resemblance to the original model.
Of interest as background is that virtually the entire battery of polling data on this, in a truly stunning display of mass media conformity, has been about a real public option as opposed to the tiny option actually being proposed in Congress. The whole US corporate media has ignored the fact that the “option” in HR 3200 would not be an option to anyone outside of the Exchange, which is limited to around 10% of the public. And the version in HR 3200 is the strongest in any of the bills.
So the “robust public option” trumpeted by mcjoan (1,2,3), slinkerwink (1,2,3), Jed Lewison (1,2,3) and others is anything but robust. The whole notion has essentially been a huge lie, and these people have proved remarkably adept at believing in it, to the point where it seems to me that they could care less about the truth as long as most elected Democrats agree and their own popularity with readers remains high. All three of them are full time political writers, and ought to have enough exposure to the facts to understand that what the Democrats are selling isn’t what the public thinks it’s buying.
To cite an example, when I wrote a blog post about the tiny size of this public “option” a few months ago, slinkerwink was very adamant about telling me the opposite. She has also done the same to her readers, for one by quoting mcjoan’s comments on the Commonwealth study about a huge public option, and even moreso just through omitting the essential facts. Events since then (like Obama’s speech) have made it more clear that the public option is tiny, but I’m not aware of any big statements by slinkerwink or mcjoan apologizing to their readers for grossly misleading them about its size. I’m also disturbed that slinkerwink is being paid to write diaries (which are normally written by unpaid writers) on a daily basis, because this makes it impossible for other views to compete. I would have less of a problem if the diaries were more reasonable, but given that they systematically ignore the most important parts of the situation, the whole arrangement seems to me a kind of dangerous propaganda mill.
On Daily Kos, though, doublethink is a matter of routine. So when mcjoan did her online interview of T.R. Reid about his important new book, The Healing of America, his final and most concrete point about the American health care debate was that all the proposals so far were just “tinkering at the margins” of our health care system. mcjoan even acknowledged that a true “unified system” like the one he favored wasn’t on the table. But despite this acknowledgment, she then turned right around and, of course, pushed the usual public option proposals the very next day. The message is that while it’s fine to call T.R. Reid’s book “required reading” for all US leaders, it’s quite beyond the pale to actually advocate what it says yourself.
The result of all this is a whole mythology of how vital it is to stop the public option from being “triggered,” from being subject to a state opt-out, or from being replaced by co-ops. In reality, all of these results will be completely invisible to about 90% of the population, whether they come out favorably or unfavorably. The bottom line of this health care bill, as people like Ezra Klein have noted, is that it doesn’t alter the structure of the system much for anyone except the uninsured or sick. Yes, it does institute community rating and bans on rescission and discrimination on pre-existing conditions. But for those who already have insurance and are not seriously ill, the system remains the same, even though it’s that very system that is making health insurance unaffordable. And for reasons that I pointed out above, any establishment Democratic organization like Daily Kos fundamentally cannot deal with that, because most Congressional Democrats are currently against changing it.
Daily Kos’s situation is hardly unique, though it is probably the biggest and worst example of public option fixation in the blogosphere. Firedoglake apparently has a similar stance, though it’s also decidedly less controlled and rigid. Still, the recent move by founder Jane Hamsher and nyceve to create a permanent nonprofit organization called Public Option Please, to exist even after the current legislative battles are over, is really depressing to me. This is the very same nyceve that wrote this awesome piece as recently as last year calling out MoveOn.org and HCAN for rejecting single payer as a position. Apparently she herself has now fallen into the very same trap. I hope that she’ll return to her previous well thought out stance.
I will still post on Firedoglake and TPMCafe, because though I may have my differences with the editors on these blogs, there is a large and vibrant single payer community on Firedoglake. These blogs also lack one feature of the Daily Kos setup that pretty much eliminates the possibility of free debate, namely the hide rate system, in which users can remove the posts of other users if they find them to be too upsetting. Whatever the official justification for this system on Daily Kos, in effect it’s little more than a subtle tool for promoting conformity. (For example, when I wrote several angry posts about John Kerry’s and Howard Dean’s failure to support Medicare for All, the posts were consistently hide rated.) If a person really is a troll, they should just be banned, and that should be the end of it.
In the longer run, I hope that more people will move to blogs such as ZBlogs where the official editorial stance of the blog is, instead of being pro-Democratic, pro-progressive and pro-leftist. (The link must be clicked twice.) I for one don’t feel able to post only on ZBlogs right now because, well, there aren’t many people there, and also the software is still pretty rickety. Nevertheless, I will be doing a lot of “exclusive content” posts where I crosspost one version of a post on other blogs and a more extensive version on blogs like ZBlogs. That way every post is in effect a marketing effort for a more progressive media.
My central message to those in the blogosphere and media right now who seem to think, as I once did, that Daily Kos is somehow a liberal blog on health care is: it’s not. It has zero legitimacy as speaking for the left on this issue, and like most elected Democrats right now, is actually more on the reactionary, elitist, neoliberal, and pro-industry side of public opinion. (About four out of almost sixty Democrats have endorsed Medicare for All in the Senate.) So when you see Kos on Countdown talking to Keith Olbermann, don’t have any illusions about who he represents. He represents Democrats, and right now, I’m sorry to say, on this issue Democrats mostly represent the health care lobbies.
For those media figures interested in having a balanced health care debate, pick an actual leftist to represent the left. And for those bloggers who want to support conscientious blogs, don’t make Daily Kos your forum of choice.
Crossposted on ZBlogs, Daily Kos and TPMCafe



77 Comments







Despite finding dKos a bit too party loyal, militaristic at times, and centrist for my taste, I did blog there from 2005 to March 2008. But then I gladly left in search of grown ups to talk to. I felt more comfortable at the cafe or by the lake, so here I be.
T.R. Reid’s book is wonderful. It is clear and concise and filled with fun stories.
Reduce an arguments complexity and more people can understand it people won’t support things they don’t understand Politics 101.
This is a Left vs Right argument we want a plan that costs less money the GOP, Blue Dogs want something that will protect insurance company profits.
What is best for the American people is our priority. Not what is best for Corporations. I think Koz is wrong on this I still like his site but yes we need a plan and we should define the argument by what is the best and cheapest way to get everyone insured now.
Not how best to protect insurance and drug company profits.
Koz has eaten the poison Washington Cocktail Weenie!
First yes write what you want I agree however the editors are leaders they made the choice to accept the reality of what’s currently happening in Washington.
What happened to Change we can believe in? We are the ones we were waiting for? The polls say we want everyone to have Healthcare we want to pay the same for drugs that Mexico and Canada do.
Its Washington that is out of step with the Main Stream and apparently so is Koz.
It’s true, the editors are in some sense leaders, although Kos is the guy who sets the rules. There is a lot of phony denial of that over there. I actually had someone argue with me once that the editors didn’t “officially represent” the blog. The guy apparently didn’t understand the definition of “official.”
Markos Moulitsas also took the stand that there isn’t any problems with touchscreen voting machines; end of story is that kos IS a Democratic Party mouthpiece, NOT a ‘liberal/progressive’ website.
All good ‘tell me what to think’ Democrats live there.
No problem with touch screen voting machines? Thats not a Dem view point thats a Republican view point Karl could have said that and he probably has.
Brad Blog the place to go about touch screen voting.
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5238
Should not the Editors push for what I’m sure a majority of Koz readers want rather than sell them on second best? Isn’t that the Main Stream Media’s job?
Isn’t that why the Main Stream Media is losing readers, viewers etc? Sure it might take time but if the popular blogs go down this path it will kill them.
Money Quote
Interesting scary but interesting.
Democraticunderground went to a recommend for/against system recently. Not sure what it was meant to accomplish. Giving people the power to unrecommend an author’s work for any reason is not such a great idea. To tell Democrats they cannot reason for themselves and have their own opinions and questions is an even worse idea. Herd mentality at its worst when any ‘leader’ tries to control thought and opinion.
Lets hope this trend does not spread to other Lefty Blogs. The Mods here keep the trolls from getting to disruptive. And a good troll smack down does spur debate.
It is not just trolls that are censored, though. It is anyone who has an opinion that is not in sync with the site’s agenda. That is suppression of free speech and the exchange of ideas. To be forced to be a clone of the site’s owner is good for the owner’s ego, but not for anything else.
This site has an agenda too. It’s just a different one that we happen to identify with and that’s why we’re here.
This is an example of what happens at DU. The topic was the protesters who crashed the banker’s convention. I think that many Democrats would agree with what they did and DU is 100% a Democratic site. These are a few of the comments that appeared when the article was unrecommended.
************
“I was pretty surprised that it was almost IMMEDIATELY “unrecommended”…
…I’m trying to understand if we have offended bankers here or what…
You have to understand..
a lot of different lobbying groups use specialized web software to automatically un-recommend posts and comments they deem unfriendly to the industries they represent. This is why I don’t get DUs decision to even add an unrec feature. It largely caters to a very specific set of political interests.
I totally agree with your statement
…the unrec feature is a gift to corporatist dogs who want to come here and control and make invisible–threads that shine the spotlight on their sickening antics.
Unrec needs to go. It only helps non-Progressives minimize Progressive ideals. ”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×6857392
The Lake could go more Left on this issue I agree we are letting them define what is possible its like fighting with one hand behind your back.
Obama has his mailing list of volunteers the blogs have us we could easily have created rallies to dwarf any Tea Bagger Protest early on but Obama chose to compromise with the 20% of people who will never like him.
Still no Healthcare for everyone then Obama Damm well better not ask for more troops to fight wars Bush could not win in even though we won WW2 in less time.
Does Daily Kos let you say: 9-11 Inside Job!
oh yah and with about the same results as mentioning Palestine and Israel if Israel is spoke of as the alleged aggressor..’g’.
How much more of a sellout is opt-out than the public option on its best days?
I have to laugh at Dkos.
Every once in awhile, just to be rascally, I’ll make this sort of comment over there: We must stand with Obama and hold our tongues if necessary,
Such a commment will be roundly recc’ed.
Har dee har, har, har.
Is it not pretty much the same here though? And at OpenLeft. At first there was a lot of concern to say “robust” public option. Now they still say it but the fact is there’s zero chance of any final bill having a robust PO and we’d be better off trying to make the health care reform bill FAIL.
But everywhere it is the same — the PO is seen as god and we must support it. This is a complete capitulation to the right. A rout.
A PO that is only available to a few million people is a FAIL. Worse than that it is going to be used to sell this industry hand-out. This legislation is going to be very unpopular because it is a huge regressive taxation — a huge new tax on the poor. And it won’t do a damn thing for health care.
Agreed
Just posted a new diary taking a similar position is here.
And funding subsidies for the ‘losers’ who can’t afford insurance on their own . . . The bill(s) would set up the usual ‘anti-welfare’ right-wing rallying cry that Dems will capitulate to, especially with the ‘new era of fiscal responsibility’ upon us just after we gave away everything to the financial king pins. Bet on subsidies declining, steadily increasing the tax on the working poor.
I’d basically agree. The main reason I am still going to blog here is, not because of Jane, who unfortunately appears to be just as strongly tied to the PO as Kos is, but because the community here is definitely more focused on national health care.
My view is that the problem comes from an unwillingness by blog leaders to distance themselves from Democrats. Because most elected Democrats don’t like national health care, if you’re going to advocate it, you’ve got to go after them.
I think khin raises some very good points long term they need to be addressed.
One cannot obtain justice or good legislation from a corrupt system.
That’s why I think all attempts to get HCR from congress are, at best, fools’ errands.
As I understand iremember54′s positions, I’m in alignment with him or her.
Energy should be spent not working within the system but earnestly to overthrow it.
Hey Art45. iremember54 here.
They just keep hoping that things will get better. You know Politicans will change their spots.
Everytime we vote we think there will be change, and usually it gets worse.
Like even like your first car that you loved so well, there comes a time to trade it in.
With our Government if one really takes an objective look at it, what it does, how it doesn’t work, and how fiscally irresponsible it is, there is only one conclusion to be made.
Fix and replace it.
P.S. Guy! Author of, “Why we have so many American Problems and what we can do about them,” availabe at all online bookstores, published by Authorhouse.
right on
I never was a kossack. We have had the debate of Democrat vs. progressive off and on here at fdl going back several years now. I think we all know that Kos and his site are predominately Democratic in their orientation. I have always seen this as a weakness. I adhere strongly to the view that the left side of the blogosphere should be fact-based and that we should let the facts and not party affiliation guide us and our arguments. I expect party ideology would have more of a point if we were discussing different solutions all of which worked. Unfortunately, most of those sponsored by Obama and the Democrats won’t work. So such debate loses its purpose as does the possibility for compromise.
The other point is about accountability and consistency. Many of us went to great lengths to dissect and chronicle the excesses and failures of Bush. Now although we see Obama continuing many of those same policies, sometimes reining them in at the margins, sometimes expanding them, for reasons of honesty and consistency we need to hold him to account as well.
Along these lines, Obama ran not on a platform of a status quo we can believe in but change. He has not honored this pledge. No one forced him to choose the platform on which he ran but it is disheartening to see Democrats failing to confront him over this. Indeed Obama’s own actions are creating the widening fissure in the Democratic-progressive coalition. Before we used to disagree on specific issues, with Obama the problem has become systemic. Progressives can not expect Democrats to demonstrate leadership. We can not believe that what they say is what they will do or even try to do. Obama and the Democrats have all but shown progressives the door. They have made it impossible to partner with them. I think, as I have said since even before the November 2008 election, it is time for progressives to run their own candidates and build their own party. The Democrats are not our friends. We should stop pretending that they are, or that what we see happening now with Obama is an aberration.
Well said, Hugh! Many knew Obama was not as presented when he voted the wrong way on FISA.
As for DailyKos – I wrote on here years ago that the site was not a liberal one. It is a Dem site – and over the years has gotten drunk on the DC kool-aid.
I’d agree, based on the comments here anyway, that at Firedoglake they pretty much understand that Kos is more Democratic than liberal. However, I will say I think Jane’s stance on health care has been pretty similar to Kos’s one, although Firedoglake in general is definitely less dogmatic and rigid than DK.
I agree we should be ideas based, not party based. However, I’m skeptical that we should devote any effort to creating a third party right now, what with the winner takes all voting system that exists in the US. Our best bet, given the realities of the system, is probably to try to take over the Democratic Party by fielding primaries against the shills and sellouts.
I’m sure there are good folks over there if one wants to wade through that orange ocean, but I don’t like kos, quit going there unless a post is highly recommended and linked elsewhere by someone I admire.
They have contempt for progressives… and I mean that in comments most of all. When folks refuse to argue on merit and demonstrate contempt for those who do try.. I leave.
A contempt for progressives? People still are pushing single-payer there and making a case for opening medicare for all. It’s not like they’ve completely given up.
I sense contempt for both progressives and reasoned debate, with generous spirit even for the side you happen to disagree with. There’s a neanderthal sports rally quality — why aren’t you on the bandwagon, loser? — to the comment zeitgeist.
I’m not talking about bringing passion and even anger to your words, if that’s what the issue calls for. I love that. But passion for your position doesn’t mean anger or contempt toward those you disagree with. Admittedly sometimes this can be a little hard to make the right distinctions on.
NO I don’t think we should form a separate party. We need to take over the Democratic party and make THEM form some half-assed party or join the Republicans if they don’t want to act like Democrats.
What a lot of folks forget is that the progressives and liberals ARE the majority of the Democratic party. True we are not the majority in Congress–especially the Senate. BUT WE ARE THE MAJORITY OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. If the Centrists and Blue Dogs were the majority,Hillary would be President and not Obama. We need to continue to muscle within the party. AND we need to hold true on finding good candidates to challenge the Blue Dogs in their primaries.
I SAY LET’S RUN THEM OUT. WE SHOULDN’T LEAVE. WE ARE THE MAJORITY!
I would just like to point out in my short time here I have suggested that perhaps progressives should look into forming a Progressive Party instead of continuing to support Democrats, only to be told that was a bad idea.
I assume that’s because the Conventional Wisdom is that 3rd parties will never go anywhere, entrenched interests, blah blah blah.
But to be told outright “No we just need better Democrats”…I found that more than a little disconcerting.
I do not believe the author in question had anything to do with it, but I just want to point out that it does cut both ways, so I think anyone who would slam Kos for being “Democratic” versus “Progressive” while thinking “Boy forming a real Progressive Party is a bad idea, we should find better Democrats” is a good idea should really think about the hypocrisy in that statement.
That is all.
Very good piece, khin. It was worth waiting for.
You will probably get sick of the opinions floating around FDL eventually too, but there is no comment censorship here Believe me i would have been banned long ago for my keyboard – tourettes syndrome if there was. Free speech is good, even trolls, who give me a target to get really rotten on when i want to vent.
khin,
Look, I made you famous:
http://pffugeecamp.com/diary/423/zhin-quits-daily-kos-just-got-tired-of-247-public-option-hype
That was a great Clinton message. Possibly, in fact, the most awesome comment I have ever yet seen on Daily Kos or, certainly now, ever will see!
Thanks for your support, fairleft.
today we have a gap in the Democratic Party.
There are a few good progressives/liberals in the Senate and many more in the House BUT still the Corporate Centrists and Blue Dogs are the majority.
HOWEVER, the Beltway is NOT reflective of the PARTY. Liberals and progressives out number the Centrists and Blue Dogs. THAT IS THE TRUE REALITY: WE OUTNUMBER THEM IN OUR PARTY. As proof: if the Centrists and Blue Dogs were in the majority, Hillary Clinton would be president and not Barack Obama.
BUT as obvious from the Clinton administration in the White House, they still control the Party machinery. I think it’s easy for them seriously to forget that they are not the majority of the PARTY because they are in their own insulated world. We need to keep reminding them that they are not.
My strategy for 2010 is that I’m not giving a dime to the Democratic Party. I’m giving my money only to individual progressive candidates that I support.
AND there are 13 Republican Senators who voted against Franken’s amendment and then Grassley who told all those outright lies about death panels
14 Republican Senate seats. I want a progressive Democrat in everyone of them. Then there is Blanche Lincoln’s seat. We’ll see if she votes for a bill with a public option. if not that makes 16 senate seats.
I have a Republican 2011 pasture and a Blue Dog 2011 Pasture on my site.
We can put them there in 2010.
FDL is liberal and its readers and posters are supportive of HR676. However at the top, they like the PO because they feel its politically possible, even if its overall a shitty bill and is likely to have a strong scent of “shit” even if the triggers and opt-in/outs are added or removed, whatever.
The fight is not over, but it looks like the Liberals have lost the war. We might get HR676 onto the House floor but I have a feeling the votes are not there and I believe they think a half-ass bill will past both houses and they’ll claim victory.
Now with a delay until 2013, we can blow up their idea of “Victory” and remove a few key “Blue Dogs” and Corporate Protectors inside the party.
Clearly this is a chess match on all levels. We are watching the self-destruction of the Republicans/Conservative Movement and largely battling within our own party on health reform. It looks like on all major issues we are largely fighting with ourselves.
So the entire focus for blogs is to POINT FINGERS and pick apart legislation as it starts off as Pig and makes it way into being Sausage Links…
It seems to me that the “chess match” is very much on all levels, as you say. In fact, in my view there’s a third level that’s right now a more immediate problem than the level of inside the Democratic Party and the level of Democrats vs. Republicans. This third level is the activist organizations themselves. Right now, a lot of people who consider themselves activists on health reform are being channeled into organizations like HCAN and OFA. (OFA is basically the Obama political machine.) Not a lot is going to change while those organizations are the biggest progressive activist ones. We’ve got to replace them with independent organizations like Healthcare-NOW!
Yes, I think that’s very important. Our organizations have been co-opted and are now arms of the Administration. We need to start new ones. FDL is not yet part of the “veal pen.” Hopefully, it never will be.
Just thought I would drop this on you:
I hope that isn’t too long a quote. It came from Glen Greenwald’s NYT condemns what it calls “Obama’s cover-up”
I settled into this read with no small amount of smug satisfaction since I have an analogous situtation on the state-blogger level. The biggest Delaware liberal blog generally follows the Kossack model of embracing elected DEMs in what can only be seen as a calculated trade-off for favor and access. They typically employ a ‘wait and see’ attitude when it comes to White House or State House policy and have recently ‘voted off’ the one contributing writer who regularly challenged the status quo.
Interesting that Moulitsas characterized Obama as a liberal and Dean as a centrist. Wait and See indeed.
I think he wrote that when Obama was a senator. Still, it shows his frame of reference. Relative to the Democratic Party as a whole, Obama probably was a liberal then and Dean, for all I know, could have been a centrist. But the problem is that this framing is all off, because the Democratic Party, at least on economic issues, is more elitist than the general public.
With respect to the public, none of these people are or were leftist on economic issues.
Khin, a really thorough and well-expressed post; thanks. I personally don’t get worked up over what goes on at DKos. The community there, and even the technology, is a bit of a cipher to me. (I still don’t understand the difference between recommending and tipping, and please no one explain it to me, because I so don’t give a fuck.)
I poke my head in now and then, typically making critical points in accord with the substance of this post, and have never been hide-rated. I may check to see if DrSteveB, ChicoDave, or National Nurses Movement have posted anything of interest lately. I don’t think they’re marginalized by anyone in charge, just by obnoxious commenters.
Anyone so into his or her bloglife at Kos as to consider him- or herself a Kossack pretty much depresses me by definition. (For that matter, despite my long presence at FDL, I don’t especially consider myself a firepup, much less, through my activity on the Seminal, a cumstain.)
LOL
Circular firing squad much?
khin, you are welcome to join the HR 676 choir at Corrente!
This is all very helpful to me (and really, what else matters?!) *g*
Sometimes I feel like a motherless child. Possibly because my mom is a deceased Republican. Be that as it may, I take my politics as I take religion, i.e., bag the rigid dogma. Especially the rigid blue dogma.
Those who speak with absolute certainty of their lefty rightness are on wobbly ground with me (and really, what . . . ?!) Most of the people here are light years beyond me in learned-ness. But that doesn’t mean I must become a sheeple, which tends to annoy folks.
And so, mostly, I lurk . . . .
Thanks, khin. What a great read.
We had 80 million people ready, willing and able to work for change. And we ended up with a personality not “person” leader who wants to aim low, and whose ego wants him to go down in history as being about biparitsanship. And since that is not happening thanks to the insane backlash of the immature Repubs who lost their power lollipop, our new Prez is addicted to his dream and willing to let his supporters drown as he focuses on his ego goal.
And without our leader, our sub-leaders AIM WAY TOO LOW, ALSO, who like us were slow to recognize Obama’s feet of clay unlike the true and honorable far lefties who absolutely got it and who have been disenfranchised for a long time in the wilderness and who, many, have stuck their necks out in true courageous civil disobedient or minority exercises of protest, ignored by the progressives let alone the citizenry.
To not fight whole hog for Single Payer Medicare for All as a human and civil right, is losing before launching the battle. It is passing the real reformist buck to the future generations. Pragmatism and feasibility is the rationale not to rally all the troops. And the real and the honest is NOT complicated and does not have bells and whistles. How long is HR 676, 38 or less pages? I need to check.
Robert F. Kennedy preached the importance of asking, “Why not?’ “Why not universal health care as a human right?” What is the insanity here. The rest of the world is so far ahead of us on this morality. We are too smarty pants exceptional to have empathy as a country? Our government spends trillions to kill innocents abroad and the bankrupting and health care fiasco here allows thousands and thousands a year to die premature deaths because health care is not a right?
Charlie Rose had the former prime minister of Singapore on the other day, and he was bemused. He said re health care, in effect, your government did not begin to settle the problem. At all. He acknowledged the kabuki of non-solving in Congress and with the Pres.
The only fiscally sane recourse was to dump the gratuitous, insane overhead and obscene exec compensatory Rube Goldberg health care system, and expand medicare for all and/or vet care models. But instead Congress and Prez throws money we don’t have at it, promises the world in that walkless talking they do. Corruption prevails. INSURANCE for their present and future campaign finance needs totally trumps insurance for the common good. Not even a contest there.
I wrote on lets post the marriage between citizens and insurance corporations should be over not rescued to keep the misery going. The marriages between citizenry and obama and citizenry and Congress are about a partner that cheats so awesomely and that is so awesomely neglectful and uses cronyism to spin its betrayal. In terms of Obama, we never got a real honeymoon. He cheated from the get go.
As for citizens and media marriage, media is the slickest betrayer of all. But it is the prostitute, too, of the corporations. So there you go.
I am glad I have the freedom to post like this here. But I was gravely disappointed and profoundly confused by official FDL not backing the Single Payer platform. Together we can make it, but when the left divides up itself, we have done so much toxic work already for the oligarchs and the patriarchal power addicts.
Lucy and the football Obama and bait and switch game playing, the public option was the football icon, and will it touch down or not for the left, it will be in pretty pathetic shape by the end of this game. And why was it a game at all.
Human rights should be about statesmanship, not gamesmanship.
My two cents, FWIW.
I’ve always known that Kos is a party loyalist blog, not an opinion or issues blog. So what? It is what it is.
The party and its electees–not Kos–own the responsibility for delivering on the nation’s healthcare expectations at this point. If bait-and-switch is the plan–and I very much fear that it is–then the party will face the consequences.
I’m no political genius, but I think I can see a change in this country’s mood. We may have reached the time Lincoln spoke of, when a policy based on fooling some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time comes unstuck at last. How long has it been since we saw the polling numbers for an idea remain so consistently high in the face of monolithic opposition from corporatist news media, deep-pocketed advertisers, the President, the majority of both hhouses of Congress, and the leadership of both parties? All of the Rovian, Madison-Avenue opinion manipulation has been for nought. AHIP’s paid “research study” actually hurt the corporate cause. Insider deals with the White House have fallen apart as they become public. Thirty-year-old formulas for political success just aren’t working with healthcare.
If the party delivers on its healthcare promises, as it has not, thus far, delivered on its promises to end the wars and reform the banks, then it can look forward to 20 or 30 years in power–maybe more, if it goes back and makes good on some of the promises it has conveniently fogotten.
But if the party pulls the bait-and-switch yet again, on healthcare, at this moment in our history, it may face an outpouring of public anger unprecedented in recent memory. As the novelty of Democrats in control of the White House and Congress fades, the party may find that the old tricks do not work for other things besides healthcare either. The public may suddenly decide to re-examine what they were sold with the wars, the spying, the banks, bankruptcy, NAFTA, and tax policy. And if that happens, the Democratic Party may well follow the Republicans down the drain, leaving us with two minority, rump parties and a whole lot of independent voters.
I for one will not vote the lesser of two evils again. If the Democrats don’t stand and deliver, I’ll vote third party or abstain. I’ve already decided to hold back donations to all national and state party organizations until I see something in return.
I completely disagree with this. The responsibility for selling the “bait and switch” is very much a collective responsibility. It’s a responsibility that is shared by leaders in the media and by leaders in activist groups that refuse to tell the truth. And by political leaders who bow to pressure from big money.
As long as we collectively bow our heads and don’t speak out against what is happening, then we own a share of the blame. The failure of activist groups like HCAN and OFA to make national health care a goal is a big part of that, and so are people like Kos who, on health care, are basically just lapdogs to the elected Democratic consensus.
I said nothing about bowing heads.
I know people that know Kos. He is a political pro–a hack, if you will. It is not his calling to define what is right and best. He trusts the party to do that. Ultimately, that means that he trusts you and I to do it.
His trust is misplaced, in my view. The party is pulling the bait-and-switch because, for whatever reason, it thinks that this is the best way to maintain power. The party is switching to what the political pros think is “possible” or “realistic”–which means “what is possible within the corridors of power”.
Unfortunately, the perceptions of the political pros are out of synch with reality. The best plan that is possible in the corridors of power is well short of the minimum required in the real world and very, very far short of the expectations that the party’s bait has raised.
The Democratic Party has now made itself what it tried to avoid being: responsible. It owns the healthcare issue and is on the hook for the outcome and for all of its consequences. If it does the switch, the party will have prepared the nation for a turkey dinner with all the trimmings and will have delivered a road-killed mouse. I’m not a political professional, but I don’t think that is something that our politicians will be able to brush aside. They are likely to be held responsible for their promises as well as their actions.
What we have to do is to make reality clear to our leaders before it is too late. The pros are out of their depth–the conventional political wisdom does not apply. Tell them. We want adequate, civilized, modern healthcare. We expect it. And if we don’t get it, after so many years and so much support and loyalty, then we are through.
Actually–personally I’m not necessarily even that optimistic. I think they could be held responsible, but that is difficult to predict and depends on people at the bottom making a real drive to throw them out. But if the “Daily Kos mentality” continues, meaning a mentality that elevates party membership far above the actual results that the party produces, then that drive won’t happen.
I hope we can break through that mentality.
1. I hate it when progressives act like cultists.
2. I do enjoy a good “I will no longer comment on (insert blog name)” post. It never fails to bring a smile to my face to be reminded that no matter how big we get, we never ever leave high school. Usually, I read those kind of posts over at the wingnut sites, though. Well done, khin. Rest assured that somewhere there will always be a blog that will welcome you with open arms. It might have to be your own geocities blog (yes, I know they’re gone, but does he?) but there’s always a place to call home when you’re the one with the keys. When that day comes, let me know and I’ll come by and leave an encouraging comment.
3. Clearly, your decision to no longer post at Daily Kos will be the knockout blow that finally brings that site down. It’s been long in coming.
I don’t expect Kos and those like him to change from Democratic partisans to liberals or prgressives or whatever. They serve a purpose. They organize and do the down-to-earth political scutwork most of us don’t care so much for. But if Kos and other party-first loyalists really care about the Democratic Party as an institution, then they need to wake up and start worrying about whether any of the professional political class are going to be relevant to anyone but each other in a few years.
It’s time for political professionals to show that their political organizing is good for something beyond mere self-perpetuation. Let healthcare be the start. Call it single-payer, call it public option, call it a coop if you must. But make sure that it delivers European-/Medicare-style care at reasonable cost to anyone that wants it and pay for it by taxing the wealthy. Anything less and who needs you?
Agreed! I also agree that Obama was never a progressive. He was always too interested in bipartisanship, and even if you could get past that, the Democratic Party itself is a business party too. (Just not as extreme of one.)
It’s certainly a problem. I wish there was a blog as well functioning and advanced as FDL that actually endorsed national health care. ZBlogs is good but the software is rickety and nobody’s there. Maybe I should look into Corrente.
You might also be interested in Corrente — the blog everybody hates and nobody reads (and, I am told, a guilty pleasure for Dem staffers…)
This is an excellent diary, Khin. I’ve seen many of your comments and posts at DailyKos and have a great deal of respect for you so your comments here are very welcome. I too used to post a lot at Dailykos and have pretty much given that up because that site has become just a cheerleader website for the democratic party. Any criticism, especially progressive criticism, of the administration is usually hr’d by a hyenas pack of true believers who operate as the website’s thought police.
Funny too when one recalls the basis of Kos’s criticism of Dennis Kucinich a year or so ago: he was not handsome enough to be president. Yes, unbelievably enough, that was the approach of this guy (who isn’t Robert Redford himself) to the candidacy of the most progressive of the democratic candidates for the presidency. He expressed that silly attitude in numerous diaries and comments. He also touted the election of Tester for the Senate (and raised money through his website for him) and made him out as a progressive; Tester’s real record is more of a DLCer. There truly are lots of better website around for political analysis and this is one of the better ones.
Hey fflambeau. Good to see a familiar face. You’re absolutely right–the purpose of Daily Kos is simply to be a cheerleader site for the Democratic Party. The level of dishonesty is pretty off putting. I tolerated it for as long as I could and tried to raise awareness of what was going on, but in the end, the real world sunk in and I realized it was fatally flawed. And yes, Kos is a “hack,” as robspierre just put it above.
Daily Kos is silly.
I posted here briefly as Hoofin on the issues I wanted to talk about. But I wasn’t aware of that adolescent and nasty side there. So about 6 or 7 posts later, I got banned. I think it was particularly for pointing out the efforts of the late Senator Kennedy’s office in trying to water down one of the recent (2007) student loan reform bills—before the Republicans even got to it.
This Democratic caving-in before the front line even appears at the battlefield is (surprise! surprise!) the news of the hour in the U.S. Senate. But too controversial for Kos.
For the record, I think it was Barb Morrill (Barb of MD? Barb in MD) who hit the off switch, at the instigation of “Condoleaser” and “RenaRF”. “RenaRF” is also responsible for the Kos is Lord FAQ’s quoted some posts ago on this thread.
The Kos site is going nowhere, and Kos’ only claim to fame was to show that it could be done on a large scale.
He really has nothing else to offer.
That really doesn’t surprise me. Probably the only reason I did not get banned is because I spaced out my more controversial posts with a bunch of boring ones in between. But write anything that seriously criticizes Democratic leaders and you can bet they’ll flip their lids.
I would really like to agree with that, but can’t. Kos is the biggest political blog on the net right now–a behemoth.
I hope it goes nowhere, but their brand of intolerant party zealotry could still win out.
If you track Daily Kos compared to Jane, firedoglake is probably growing leaps and bounds. I remember doing that about three months ago when I started hitting this site regularly.
I had heard about here through Bob Wright’s Blogging Heads project. But only visited this year because I wanted to get an honest take about what is going on back home. (I am in Japan.)
Jane Hamsher goes on Rachel Maddow with a warm and intelligent bearing, and people get introduced to the site. Plus the content is really good. And most all of the posters are also really talented, so it never seems like a waste to visit.
Kos is like none of that. So that’s why I say, it hit its top.
khin,
Join the list, though, you know?
I remember the late David Weintraub (DavefromQueens) did an excellent piece on how Kos was more paper tiger than anything, and that the “smarter and better” Democrats leave it.
He had numbers and the analysis to show that Kos’ high ranking on the net comes from the same handful of people hitting the site all day. The Kos Community is big, but it has more to do with checking back at the site all day than with content.
I am very interested in what I call “web dispersion” and how sites build up and then break off into pieces that make new sites (social groups, etc). Like what happens when Facebook gets too big.
I believe that is what people will be talking about a lot in the next couple years.
I completely agree. I had a similar experience with Mike Lux. I engaged him on health reform and he tried to tell me Obamacare is a real public option. When I showed him I know my stuff and it’s not, he immediately backed down.
Yes, it seems that Open Left may not be much better than Daily Kos on this issue. Your experience seems to fit with what I’ve heard.
Could you provide a link to Mike’s comments? I’d be interested in seeing them.
I applaud your dedication and commitment. I became disenchanted with Daily Kos some time ago and only manage to read their posts when they appear on other blogs or websites. But I rarely use them as a resource.
I agree with your assessment of FDL. I rarely need to go very far to find an alternative viewpoint when on FDL, and their commentary is informed and insightful. They seem to take their work seriously. They work to verify their assertions and are not simply cheerleaders. The quality of the writing is excellent.
I have particularly enjoyed Jane Hamsher’s work on The Veal Pen. Illuminating.
As a Single Payer advocate for thirty plus years, I know how frustrating it can be to constantly be pushed to the back of the bus. I was encouraged to see you quote Kip Sullivan at PNHP. I quote here from Sullivan’s response to the “feasability” argument constantly plaguing universal healthcare:
“The “political feasibility” rationale for doing nothing to assist the single-payer movement was never a good one or, at minimum, after two decades of constant use, has become an embarrassment and must be discarded. It is foolish to argue that even the tiniest “public option” will constitute a victory that can be built on later. If the “yes buts” see these truths, then unity within the universal coverage movement should be possible. And if unity comes to the universal coverage movement for the first time in 40 years, single-payer can’t be far behind.”
So I’m registering here in hope that, from time to time, I will be able to lend my voice to yours in advance of universal healthcare, true comprehensive reform. And possibly help keep the focus on the real need for reform: Not some empty victory the politicians can put in their pockets, but the tens of thousands who die as a result of corporate greed and political corruption.
Thanks for that link. I should read Kip’s responses since I’m sure I’ll learn some things about how to respond myself.
Certainly I’ve also found that the quality of writing here far exceeds what one usually finds on DK. I wouldn’t necessarily blame DK for that, as different blogs have their own styles. But I do blame them for pandering.
It occurs to me that the media gatekeepers–and I mean by that in the “liberal” corporate outlets like MSNBC–will never tolerate consistent discussion of national health insurance. So to get on those shows and promote one’s blog, you have to acquiesce to that. That is definitely a reason why blog owners, I think, acquiesce so often.
Kos got sucked into the borg and has become a droid. Well, his site hasn’t gone quite that far, but it’s been clear for quite a while DK wants to be accepted by the Villagers and, therefore, energetically fends off all attempts to introduce progressive notions and other such commie ilk into the conversation in order to placate said village idiots.
Btw, cross-posting used to be frowned upon, in general. Whiny ones should be excluded, at least.
(Moved to below.)