Good morning firedogs, and happy Tuesday.
Yesterday I was up against a wall. Suffering from a bit of writer’s block, even. I could not come up with a topic for today’s post that stirred my passion as an activist, a person, a parent… anything. My only semi-solid thought was a post about gun control, but it seems like such a large and complex issue. I wasn’t sure I wanted to try tackling it here at Over Easy.
So I did what I always do when I’m at a loss for ideas. I opened Twitter and began aimlessly scrolling through my timeline, chasing links and reading the first paragraph or two of each article. It wasn’t long before I happened upon this piece (h/t our very own Kit O’Connell for the RT that caught my eye).
My very own Texas Legislature, those bicameral blowhards who only work 140 days every 2 years, are currently contemplating legislation that would
… exempt firearms, firearm accessories and ammunition manufactured in Texas from federal regulation. Under the bill, as long as those items stayed within the state and were manufactured in Texas except for the import of basic materials from other states, they would not be subject to any federal regulations, including registration.
The utter idiocy and staggering tribalism of this move sparked my fury. Exempt from registration, even? Are you kidding me? Surely you jest. The article goes on to quote this sterling scholar, Elizabeth Saunders
Taking guns away from the people that are responsible is not going to help,” Saunders said. “There are other areas that need to be regulated…controlling the mental illness that is so high in this country, the drugs and the bullying. It is just not like when I grew up.
Now, Elizabeth goes on to make a couple of valid points, and I won’t pick her apart here. She’s a small business owner, and I’ve learned from every Republican that has drawn a breath over the last 30 years that she is to be respected and even worshiped as a lesser God, because she is a job creator.
So moving on. All of this is to say, dear reader, that my fire was lit. Gun control was squarely in my sights. Pun intended, of course.
I started writing an outline, quickly realizing that my word count would greatly exceed what even I would consider readable. I decided to break this out into a series of posts over the coming few weeks. Hopefully I’ll still have friends among you when I’m done.
Enough about me. Let’s talk about you.
You are likely outnumbered, as a US Citizen, by guns. According to the Congressional Research Service in a report from November 2012 (big .pdf, figures on page 8), there are approximately 310 million guns owned by private citizens in the United States. Here’s the money quote:
Per capita, the civilian gun stock has roughly doubled since 1968, from one gun per every two
persons to one gun per person.
These figures do not factor in guns possessed by domestic military installations, nor guns possessed and housed by domestic law enforcement agencies. That figure is estimated at 4 million firearms.
The 2012 estimated population of the United States is 313,914,040.
This means that you are outnumbered. There are more guns in America than there are people.
You are more likely to die at the end of a gun if you own a gun, or if you live in a home where a gun is kept.
A study published in 1992 by the New England Journal of Medicine, conducted by researchers in the Department of Medicine at the University of Tennessee in Memphis, found that you are almost 5 times more likely to commit suicide if there is a gun in the home.
A similar study by researchers of the same department, published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1993, found that you are almost 3 times more likely to be murdered if there is a gun in the home. From the study:
Rather than confer protection, guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.
A study at the University of Pennsylvania in 2009 concluded that you are 4.5 times more likely to be shot and 4.2 times more likely to be killed if you carry a gun.
Here’s another gem:
For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
Looks like gun ownership actually increases the risk of death by firearm. Odd, because 67% of gun owners cite protection against crime as their reason for owning a gun.
Have we dispensed of any notions that any of us may have once had about guns making us safer? Good. Onward and upward.
You live in a nation with one of the highest numbers of gun death in the developed world. A list of homicides by firearm, sorted by country, shows the United States in 4th place behind only South Africa, Colombia, and Thailand. This list is based on total number of deaths, not proportional representation based on population. Gee whiz! Some of that American Exceptionalism at work.
Here’s a list based on number of deaths by firearm per 100,000 population. Thanks Wiki. It shows the United States with a total of 10.2 deaths by firearm, including homicides, suicides, accidents, and undetermined deaths. Take a look at the other developed nations on the list. Get a good look at how we stack up against our peers. It’s not pretty, is it, dear reader?
Hopefully the above links and figures clearly illustrate your relationship with guns in society. When a gun is present, there is a huge increase in your risk of bodily harm. With guns so rampant in our country, we outpace our peers in the number of homicides by firearm. Exponentially outpace them in most cases.
The simple conclusion that I draw from this information is that guns are a major part of the problem. As I examine the subject of gun control in the coming weeks please try to keep the above facts and figures in mind. Next week’s post will examine accessibility to firearms and the regulations currently in place that restrict accessibility in different states and countries.
Alas, I have reached what I consider to be a reasonable word count for a single post. I’ve passed one thousand, so it’s time to turn it over to you.
This is Over Easy. As always, off topic is safe and welcome. I’d like to hear today, though, about your personal experience with firearms. What are your reactions to the information above? Have you ever lost someone to a gun? Do you own a firearm or firearms? If so, what type? What is your level of training and experience with those guns? Why do you own them? What do you use them for?
I’ll see you in the comments.




229 Comments

Good morning firedogs.
Thanks a lot, Kris. I am looking forward to your series!
I am way out on the end of the spectrum on this issue. Except for law enforcement and the military (and I have some reservations even there) I see no reason for anyone to have guns.
Yes, people cite hunting for sport, but why is killing a defenseless animal “sport”? If you must hunt for food to live, there are other ways (fishing, trapping, bow-and-arrow), but I suspect there aren’t a lot of those 3 million Americans who must hunt their own food to live.
So color me anti-gun for any reason.
Thanks, Kris, and as I see your statistical analysis, it’s time for advocates of looser gun laws to break in to more armed households so the statistics will balance in favor of arming the homefront.
Nice post Kris.
Good morning firedogs.
No guns in this house. :)
ROTFLMAO
I get a not found error on this link to “The Horn”
Hey Kris,
Though the subject it tough, you kept my following, nice piece, no pun meant.
In the day after the Newtown, I posted two thoughts, the shooting would drive prices and demand for guns up, and that a possible solution to help out of control gun sales would be a heavy liability insurance requirement on owners of certain kinds of weapons, partnered with an extraordinarily fair, time limited gun buy-back.
I’ve seen these ideas floated elsewhere almost two months later and hope what I wrote was read and realized.
No way of knowing for sure on that though.
Weird. Opens right up for me.
I’ll reserve my personal opinions for the conclusion, I think.
(Spoiler Alert)
I pretty much agree with you.
Good morning Ruth. I think if more gun advocates broke into homes, they would quickly become either a) dead, or b) anti-gun.
It’s odd because I went directly to the site and entered the title from the URL in the search box and got nothing.
Good morning JC.
I suppose I should put a disclaimer on each of these posts as the series progresses. I own guns. 3 of them.
Hey other firedogs – is that first link working for you?
I Googled it, and the piece is the first thing to come up in the list, but when I click on it there, I get exactly the same error message. Really ODD!
Statistics often can be applied to similar results, it’s a ‘dead science’ sometimes, but infinite possibilities.
OK I tried a different browser. Same result. Oh, well…
Good morning nonq, and thanks.
I like the result of insurance for firearm ownership, but have two major concerns. The first is that you could well price lower- or middle-class people out of owning a firearm. If people are going to be able to own guns, I don’t think you should price that right beyond a certain class.
Second, I fucking hate insurance companies of all types. It is a parasitic, soulless industry whose only aim is to leach profits from the masses. I can’t get behind any idea that would mandate a person to give more money to those thieves.
Very sound thought. Liability for keeping your own guns from doing harm would help.
I don’t think taking away guns is going to help for the following reasons:
1) You’re going to start an ugly fight that you might not win, and in fact could lose big time. You think an amendment to basically order the government hands off on all private firearms wouldn’t currently pass?
2) Even assuming you get a law, think about this: We have been trying to stop heroin for about 100 years. It’s used by less than .2% of the population and despised by the rest. We’ve been spectacularly unsuccessful. Now tell me we can stop something that supported (sometimes fanatically) by a minimum of 100x that.
3) Just the thought of gun control has resulted in massive gun purchases and ammo purchases. More guns in circulation. And that’s what happens every time. Heck, WalMart is limiting ammo sales and police are having trouble getting ammo!
4) I’m not aware of any of the proposed laws that would have prevented the shooters from obtaining the guns. Some of those guns are legal, others were obtained from family members.
IMO the only way to deal with this is a functioning mental health system. What a gun? Get an okay from a shrink…along with everyone else who would have access to those guns. And regular appointments as long as you own it. For the entire family. And give the shrink the authority to order the guns secured if there’s an issue.
And we finance it via a tax on guns and ammo.
This will work if the goal is to reduce gun violence, but not if the goal is a total ban.
Boxturtle (And the fools using 3d printing to make guns will render the point moot, anyway)
In 1980,I had an altercation in Libya where an AK-47 was pushed into my face over an air conditioner my company owned.
That incident confirmed my description of myself as a Pacifist as well as a Humanist.
I’ve never owned or fired a gun. There weren’t even toy guns in my home when my kids were growing up. Sure, they had an occasional squirt gun, but the object of their play was getting someone wet, not pretending to kill.
A delay between the shooter attempting to purchase, and the accomplishing of a purchase, would have put off, if not stopped, Gabby Giffords’ shooting, and probably others, but I am not familiar with all details of all shootings.
Hmm, hadn’t thought of this. require $1M or so liability insurance. I doubt there’ll be many insurance companies willing to offer a deal on something like that no matter how pro-gun they are, so they’d charge what the traffic would bear. Wonder what that would be. Likely in the range of $1000-$3000/yr.
Boxturtle (And the NRA can’t say we’re being vindictive, we require the same from drivers)
Heavy liability on assault type weapons, nothing on regular, sporting rifles, a hunting type shotgun. Buy-back of existing assault weapons for a limited time before one would be required to get the insurance. Gun owners weigh their costs. Not concerned about economic class fairness in assault weapon ownership.
You’re jumping the gun BT :) I didn’t propose a gun ban.
Sends me to the Horn.
Boxturtle (Was really more interested in your opinions and thoughts than the links)
Good post. Looking at other developed countries it seems we tolerate ten times the gun death rate then most other developed countries.
Compare how we treat to murder weapons, the gun and the car. With the car it’s licensed yearly by the state, you need another license to operate the car ,after passing a test to show competency to operate such vehicle and you need insurance to operate the vehicle.
With a gun you pass a background check then you’re own your own, strange indeed !
Assault weapon is a shaky term nonq. (Playing Devil’s advocate here…)
I can accurately fire 15 rounds from a handgun in a span of about 4 seconds, and reload that handgun with another 15 rounds in less than 1.5 seconds.
In the space of 10 seconds I can accurately (within 10 yards or so) fire 30 rounds on target from a semi-automatic handheld platform.
So are all handguns assault weapons?
Yup, sends me to The Horn too, where it says,
Probably not worth bothering more with it…
My opinions and thoughts are coming. My intent with this post was to begin showing folks how I arrived at my opinions.
Proceeds from, ‘government,’ collected insurance/annual registration like autos, (or lose your weapon) directly into a fund to police the law and defray expenses for shooting victims and families.
Good morning tjbs. It does seem that we tolerate a lot more than other countries. I wonder what the reason is behind this? Is it because the people who love guns hold such powerful sway with our media and politicians?
This is a great topic, thank you. I owned a Colt Python years ago, and took it to the shooting range to practice. When I had my son and after my divorce, I gave it to my son’s father, because I didn’t want to have a great big loaded sidearm in the home, with a baby/toddler/young child.
Today, since I am an ex-convict, I cannot ever own a gun again, even though the conviction was for a non-violent crime (and even though the conviction was bogus) and even though I am a pacifist.
My nephew and his girlfriend were murdered (shot) as they sat in a car in a park, in 1985. He was 16 and she was 15. No one was ever caught, and there was no possible motive or reason, that any investigation uncovered.
I don’t have any desire to own a gun.
Also with cars we limit the horsepower and speed , even unlimited horsepower must obey. Money also limits horsepower when you get to those $100 fill ups.
I favor a tax on bullets equal to the cost of the last years gun carnage.
I thought I recalled he had those guns for awhile, but I could be mistaken. Would it have stopped him, or just delayed him a week? Dunno.
I look at waiting period laws for guns the same way I look at waiting period laws for abortion. They serve no purpose other than to make a lawful activity more difficult for a law abiding citizen.
The only wait should be to confirm the person is legally allowed to own the weapon in question. And that should take as long as is needed.
Boxturtle (That said, if a waiting period is part of a overall control policy, I wouldn’t object)
Nope. But there are a lot voices calling for such. I think nationwide we could have a saner discussion if the gun nuts could be certain that a bad and confiscation was not the plan.
Boxturtle (Gun owners are listening to the NRA more than logic on that one)
I’m terribly sorry to hear about your nephew and his girlfriend CS.
Thanks for joining us this morning.
Good morning all and thanks for the postnhost Kris.
I had Anthony read your piece before I did. Will get back to you with what he thinks. (him being a cold, dead hand kinda guy and all)
Thanks Kris,
We have a little grass roots project going here trying to get our state legislative home district, county level government officials to issue specific resolutions against some draconian
WalkerALEC legislation coming down the pike.Likely to be nothing more than an educational opportunity, no force of law behind it, but can become a shaming/please explain yourself to your constituents moment, if we can get local press involved. Approaching county commission level meetings and suggesting they propose resolutions to entire county board. A few tongues wagging already. Later.
Interesting parallel with health care, we tolerate much more suffering than other countries, could it be the U.S. has lower respect for quality of life? Seems so.
I work in a hardware store where some customers cc and half of the crew I work with maybe packing. I live outside of Philly where the pa. alabama starts. I told some clown who left open the drawers where screws ect are stored “Hey, your Mom called and said she couldn’t clean up after you this morning , could you shut the drawer.” Well it was about 9;15 in the morning and this guy screams Fuck You, Fuck You comes backs and calls me a jerk repeats the fu s then storms out. The manager told me later he’s always packing to watch what you say here.
Guns un-nerve me.
Like you, I could not see having guns in a household with small children, there is no such thing as childproof in my experience.
That’s the American rugged Individualism! Bootstraps! It’s all about me!
Most Americans don’t care about suffering that they can’t see.
Yikes, makes me see the necessity felt by a nutcase to have some violent means of backing up his own outbursts, since they lack any basis in rational behavior.
bad=ban.
I hate not having edit.
Boxturtle (*grump*)
There were some really startling numbers that I didn’t include in the piece, like a report that showed people who have a gun in their car are 4 times more likely to commit an act of road rage.
The BJS report that I link to above has a real breakdown of homicide trends, and the amount of homicides that happen among ‘nonstrangers’ is staggering.
I suppose this all follows logically, though – Access to gun > More likely to use gun > More people die.
But…but…but…we’re all so Pro-Life here. Ask any GOP legislator!
I think we just have a lower respect for life than other countries. Especially if it gets in our way.
Boxturtle (that’s the sort of thing a shrink could address)
Keep us posted on that, nonquixote. Sounds very interesting.
I’m still shaping my final conclusions and opinions, and strengthening them every day with more research.
I think that the only true solution to our problem is a total firearms ban, but I know that this is not politically or socially possible. My hope is to explore solutions outside the gun industry.
I stumbled across a study yesterday that showed a 10% increase in homicides in states that have passed Stand Your Ground laws.
Spot on, BT.
Which is why a majority polled support Obama’s drones.
That didn’t use to be legal, but a lot of those carry guns anywhere seemed to me to be backlash against Clinton’s entirely reasonable control measures.
Boxturtle (A gun is not a watch. You shouldn’t need it at work)
I would love to see all these statistics broken down between rural and urban. Thank you.
Good Morning, Such an important topic. The fact of all the current buy-up hoarding of more guns is very disturbing. How many guns does a “gun nut” need? Obviously, something is terribly wrong
in our country that so many people die by gun shots….who is paying attention?
The BJS survey linked to above has homicide trends broken down by gender, race, age, and even rural/suburban/urban setting.
Interesting indeed. Very much in line with the role that arms play in national tendencies to negotiate, or not.
I read yesterday that the average male gun owner in the US owns something like 7.2 guns.
I own 3. I guess it’s just another area where I’m below average :(
Definitions can be simple, any firearm, not bolt action or pump, capable of holding more than 5 rounds. I’ll let others fight over the definition. Adding the annual registration fee to keep track of who is in possession, and to update out-of-date registration of collectors of antiques.
(Not saying it would be easy or make anyone happy about any new gun restrictions)
Or reasonable. I just cannot get the gun obsession/adoration, like
Heston. I have some favorite things, but nothing that I worship. Guns are idols to the folks who are so committed.
My reaction is exactly the opposite. If I feel the need to have a gun in my car, the last thing I want is to attract attention. I’m probably carrying something valuable and I simply want to get it where it’s going.
I haven’t had a gun in my car except when I’m traveling to or from a coin show.
Boxturtle (maybe I’m weird for an American, but just don’t feel the need to pack everywhere)
An annual registration fee, including inspection requiring the ownership of at least a trigger lock and properly maintained and cleaned firearm, seems like a good idea to me.
Maybe every 2 years would make more sense logistically, given then amount of guns in the country.
I personally cannot see a personal need to own anything that fires more than 1 round without reloading.
I forget what the national criminal registration is called. But that said, systems for records and tracking can be amazingly effective. Guess that’s what the nuts are afraid of, plus the general horror of Gov. interference.
In Texas the law says that if you own a registered firearm you can carry it in your vehicle, concealed or in plain sight, at any time. It can be loaded.
I do not understand the logic behind the law at all. Who needs to carry a loaded gun in their car on public roads?
Since my wife is studying psychology let me throw this out:
Males since the 1970s have lost their dominance over jobs, wages,
and family life as women have threatened their hierarchy.
Is owning 7.2 guns a way of showing what men we still are?
A massive inferiority complex?
Reasonable is good :)
There are a few other guns I’d be interested in owning, and even want to own, but I don’t feel any need or compulsion to do so. There are far better things to spend my money on.
My impression: You can never have too many guns. I have a neighbor who would qualify as a gun nut. He has 5 display cases filled with long guns, a black powder musket over his fireplace and at least a dozen handguns.
He looks forward to his next gun purchase like I look forward to my next coin.
Boxturtle (I look forward to his filling his deer tags. Ah, venison!)
I own two. But I’d sell one of them in a heartbeat, I won it in a shooting contest and it’s just not my style.
Boxturtle (Tempted to buy an AR15 just because the government doesn’t want me to have it)
No No No you miss the point. These guys want a chance to be the hero, being North of Philly there are random store robberies but these guys talk in a future tense where they always come out on top when the gunsmoke clears. Gun talk is as common in the store as sex talk is in other settings.
A coin collector. The fellow who services the ATM’s. Any farmer carrying a load of fertilizer.
Just not all the time.
Boxturtle (Wallet, phone, car keys…Glock?!?)
I don’t live anywhere near you.
Geez…now i feel the need to carry to protect me from THEM.
Boxturtle (Perhaps the solution is to give everyone a gun and let fools shoot each other)
You work at the Dairy Queen?
Good Morning Kris and Firedogs,
but only when citizens and Law Enforcement have access to them -
Tiahrt Amendments
In other words, cops in Austin can’t get trace info from cops in Sacramento
when Durbin was holding forth on the current carnage in Chicago resulting from guns sold in Alabama, I foolishly believed he was going to (gasp) broach the subject – silly cbl
this is something they could fix RIGHT NOW
Exactly what I am talking about. A “Real Man” packs and wants to be a hero?
But statistics show that you’re 4.2 times more likely to be killed if you’re carrying…
So maybe you stop a robbery, or maybe you get shot. Is any coin worth your life? Any load of fertilizer? Any cash bag?
One of the issues brought up in the first link above. How the hell do we know when guns leave the state? If the next person doesn’t register them, or if the current owner leaves and doesn’t change their address with the ATF, who the hell knows where the gun is?
Truly a crazy system to be ineffective…Thanks. My point, of course, is that such a system can work…Oooo Dear. Gives me a headache.
Thanks, good info. Facts are the enemy to the wingnuts.
A former colleague went and bought a gun just exactly for that reason. He fancies himself a Federalist. I think he’s just a contrarian.
Well, thank you, and it must be a small world, because I also get writer’s block, especially with the awful news, which makes me want to jam a pen into my eyeballs.
A coin is not worth my life. A coin is worth more to me than the thief’s life. Some insurance policies will not pay if you didn’t reasonable and prudent precautions.
A load of fertilizer stolen is likely intended for a bomb. yeah, I’d risk my life over that.
A bag of my employers cash? Here, take it. We’ll file a police report and an insurance claim.
Boxturtle (But that’s me)
My dear friend, Please do not do that; we need you here and
in one piece.
BTW that wasn’t aimed at you. Just an observation about my former colleague. He has a lot of other contrarian views. Nice guy, but kinda hard to deal with sometimes.
Fun gun story . While building cabinets a while back I got to work for someone who had sold their company for $120 million Joe. With that kinda money Joe tends to collect things that cost a bit of money like cars , jade carvings and guns . He’s a big stand out type of guy. Like he collects cars but only 1928 thru 1934 sport cars owned by movie stars. he called me to make a couple of gun cases for a German Mauser (?) with a holster made of walnut which would attach to the hand gun to create a rifle. Because he stood out at high end auctions for guns and auto he hired agents to bid for him giving them , basically a lifetime of commissions . Wel, greed reared its ugly head, and his buyers colluded with sellers to rip him off for quite a bit. He sued them in federal court and they now are serving jail time for their greed.
Federalist was the name of the faction that sympathized with the authoritarian government, that had no sympathy with gun ownership by the public.
I am DEFINITELY a contrarian. My favorite collection is my collection of banned book and magazines.
Boxturtle (Kitchen Chemistry used to frighten the government, now it’s all on the web)
a little background -
soon after Columbine, some congress critter, (can’t remember whether it was Maxine Waters or Yvonne Braithwaite) was handing out fact sheets on gun crime – showing a surprising number of weapons used in crimes were coming from a surprisingly small number of sources. The Milwaukee case was stunning – a full 60% of the guns used in crimes were coming from the one dealer: Badger Guns
equally stunning, was there was an unmistakable distribution pattern – showing a handful of manufacturers and dealers were behind the tsunami of weapons being used in urban crime
gasp ! citizens began to use said stats and facts in civil trials
hence the Tiahrt Amendments
although again, this is something they could fix today
Well, maybe he’s not a Federalist then. He quotes the papers often, though, in defense of his views. Interesting discussions on Facebook. I try to mostly stay out of them.
He worked for me for 7 years, and is a very bright and knowledgeable guy, but I had to counsel him many times over the years that he was more effective if he toned it down some. Has a sort of deep booming voice and when he’d get riled his voice would go up in volume and you could see people recoil. When he tried to use a softer tone he was very effective.
But he sorta likes to seem belligerent.
One of the studies I ran across yesterday was an ATF effort in California to purchase firearms illegally from licensed dealers. They found that 1 in 5 dealers was willing to sell them a gun without going through the proper legal channels.
Glad to know justice prevailed. Guns can be very nice collectibles, as seen at antique shows where the workmanship can be stunning.
I’ll bet that every one of those 1 in 5 is still open, still under the same management, and if they tested again they’d be able to buy again.
Boxturtle (Gun dealers get the same justice system bankers get)
I am very proud of you wading in to this subject – equally proud of the evolution in your thinking
You’re probably correct. I didn’t read through the entire paper because it wasn’t what I was looking for, but I’m sure the dealers just paid a fine and promised not to do it anymore.
o/t
how did the lemon cake turn out ?
not looking for strokes, just hoping it worked out for you
Morning, Kris!
You’re most optimistic than I. I’ll bet the dealers got nothing more than a sternly worded letter.
Boxturtle (And I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that an apology cleared things up)
The Birthday is Valentine’s Day, so it gets made tomorrow, and I will let you know how it does turn out. Thanks!
And wouldn’t that be a great place to start with huge penalties.
Thanks for an important topic….work calls. Have a good one,All.
:)
Something about the dead children in Connecticut really fucked me up. Made me think clearer, though.
Good morning Jane! Hope all is well with you and yours.
You could be right, sadly.
Pretty screwed up, considering if ATF ran the same sting with alcohol, a convenience store would lose their liquor license for a month or more.
I think illegally selling a gun should put a dealer right out of business. Gone for good, with no hope of ever getting a firearms dealer license again.
That would be a great place to start.
And the clerk who made the sale would be charged criminally.
Boxturtle (that’s what they do here)
I’ve never seen criminal charges, but have seen fines and loss of license. And termination for the clerk.
Idol No More. ;^)
That picture of me above is from an Airsoft tournament. I competed at the national level for a few years, even winning a national championship.
The sport revolves around military simulation, or MilSim for short. A lot of current or prior military and law enforcement types involved. A serious focus on realism and tactical execution.
My team’s training came at the hands of a 21-year Airborne Ranger, retired E8 from the US Army. He was a Ranger instructor for 5 years. Pretty crazy and scary dude. He is know a consulting trainer for one of the largest SWAT teams in California.
We spent 100s of hours learning how to clear rooms, enter doors, work stairwells, travel roads and traverse intersections, etc. Very intensive stuff.
My team was small and tight-knit, no more than 8 of us at any given time, and we were all very close friends.
I’ve deleted most of my old teammates from my phone and facebook over the last couple months. They’re all gun nuts, and the stuff they’ve posted in the wake of the Newtown Massacre has just made me sick.
No. Because anybody can make a mistake.
However, if it can be shown that the dealer KNEW it was a bad sale that should be felony charges and the end of his association with firearms. Period.
Boxturtle (I think most dealers know a bad sale right from the start)
Where I was in N.TX. had a lot of survivalism on its fringes, that mentality seems to go beyond civilized behavior when it comes to the gun ownership issue.
Even that mentality is being glorified now, though. Shows like Preppers highlight that type of person. And shows like The Walking Dead give gun nuts apocalypse fantasies.
Similar restrictions are already imposed on tavern owners and their bartenders for over-serving any patron that leads to a traffic accident. I suggested over-serving leading to spousal abuse should carry penalties, but my representatives never even replied to that one.
There’s a lot of that in the military/spy sort of movie, imho. Glorifying killers just isn’t good for any society.
Thanks for the interesting observations, pups.
Have a great day.BBL
thank you non !!!
here in Texas, (as I was in Cali) I am not only liable for dui related injuries and deaths, I have to take a class and pass a 30 question test($25 thankyewverymuch !) every two years
fyi – I grew up in bars and taverns and saw the pain and misery wrought by alcohol consumption and alcoholism – I have ZERO interest in over serving anyone – I’ll card and/or ’86 anyone
I admired and applauded the Newtown parents who insisted on an open casket for their six year old son who had half his head blown off
(boy that looks tone deaf in print – hope y’all get my sentiment)
thanks, somehow thought it was last thursday :D
I get it completely, and feel the same way.
Just looked at the post and realized my picture caption had gotten cut off. It said ‘Yeah, that’s me. No, it’s not’. Kind of confusing.
It now reads what I originally wrote. ‘Yeah, that’s me. No, it’s not real’.
We have an arsonist running around here. Strikes about ever two months. MO is to set a barn on fire and repeat same miles away while all the fire departments are at the first fire.
My barn is not an easy target. You get near it and the lights come on. My dog goes off just before this occurs. I would not shoot this useless fuck . However, while my dog is prepping him for the ER, I would take the time from my busy day to chop their car in half. YOMV
Walking Dead shows me the major deficiency of guns: They need ammo. I’m gonna go crossbow when the zombies show up at my door.
Boxturtle (oh wait. Not zombies just parents selling Girl Scout cookies)
Heh, I knew this/what you meant.
I <3 The Walking Dead, but I think there is a delusional faction of our society that basically plays with themselves while fantasizing about the Zombie Apocalypse. Those people = scary.
I get it and i agree. It’s about time we stopped sugar coating things. “Pronounced dead at the scene” just doesn’t cover the impact.
If you wanted a parking pass for prom, you had to watch a drunk driving video. This showed uncensored some really messy DWI accidents. I was one of the few who didn’t get sick.
Boxturtle (“thrown through the windshield” also lacks realistic impact)
It is said that the best protection is not a gun, but a large, evil tempered dog.
There is certainly support for that position.
Boxturtle (What’s better, a 12guage autoloader or two bull mastiffs?)
Hey I resemble that remark*g*(I just delivered 6 packages of GS cookies to my neighbor).
Yes.
spuds’ dog wouldn’t let me in until she got to know me, either.
My golden retriever weighs 100 lbs and sounds mean IF she barks.
(She would probably invite them in. I call her the local Walmart greeter since she walks in the street to greet everyone in the neighborhood)
I agree. The purpose of a gun is to kill. It is not a tool that was designed to use for anything but dealing death.
I’m happy to suggest repeal of the second amendment. The second amendment defies common sense and modern sensibilities. Is it more a natural right to own a gun or to live free from the fear of getting shot by someone who owns a gun?
GS Families rock !
full disclosure: I am the parent of a Gold Award scout . . . . and used to have pallets of Thin Mints stacked to the ceiling in the garage every 12 months :D
love, love, love handing over our $$$ for cookies – yo, Boy Scouts, are ya listenin’ ??
A WI state Rep (husband of our Lt. Gov) has introduced legislation to permit hunting with cross-bows and archery significantly closer to schools and public parks, buildings than is now allowed. Nothing can possibly go wrong there. /s
Probably not, selling cookies might not appear, “manly,” enough for the leadership.
I don’t think Boy Scout popcorn has caught on.
Last time I was in Krogers, the GS’s mugged me, took all my money and filled my pockets with cookies.
Boxturtle (I’d have reported it, but the evidence got eaten)
Have to see the details, but the range on arrows is typically much less than guns. I think 75yd is about the max for a xbow shot.
Boxturtle (no real bow experience, so just guessing)
Someone on a blog I was reading called them “gun fondlers.”
Mugged you, eh? LOL.
What is strangely counterintuitive about the gun debate is that the anti-gun nuts, those calling for a total ban even for hunting, are the main obstacle to rational gun control.
So long as this loud Liberal minority try to dictate what everyone else needs and calls hunters bloodthirsty savages the extreme Right will have plenty of ammo to oppose any rational gun controls.
I understand why moderate and conservative people are offended when Paternalistic Liberals try to dictate what is best for them. This is especially hypocritical when Liberal celebrities condemn gun owners and then hire armed guards to keep them secure.
There is no simple solution to violence in a sick violence worshiping country. The blowback we experience often is just a reflection of the pain others suffer around the world at the bloody end of our terror policies.
Calling what they fondle a ‘gun’ might be a tad generous.
Yeah. Vicious little beasts. Don’t let the cute uniforms fool you, it’s protective coloration.
Boxturtle (ever try to pet a wild raccoon? They’re cute, too…)
A little insight from the farm. I hunt, and I hunt with an atlatl and spear. Also a member of the World Atlatl Association.
http://www.worldatlatl.org
What do you hunt spud?
‘Paternalistic Liberals try to dictate what is best for them’
the public opinion is not so much liberal, as it is sensible, that regulations for protection of the public, such as background checks, are in everyone’s interest.
As a girl I was informed fellas driving supercharged expensive hot cars were probably compensating for something physically lacking, but not usually referred to as a ‘gun’.
And children don’t play beyond the typical school boundaries.
Just relating how the stupid seems to know no bounds. This guy wanted sandhill crane hunting (rib-eye in the sky), dove hunting, leasing state owned lands to private contractors to charge hunters to hunt there (could eliminate the DNR from managing lands that way).
We’ve got more than our share of crazy in, “leadership,” around here.
Ted fuckin Nugent comes to mind. :<)
Buck deer only.
Being in the position of, “celebrity,” is a special case onto itself. I would not necessarily put personal motives there as hypocritical. Might be there, “celebrity,” handlers and investors requiring protection of the valued human property.
Otherwise I see your points, but opposition from gun advocates is largely based on promulgation of fear (on several levels) among gun owners/aficionados.
fyi – Girl Scout Thin Mints make the bestest cheesecake crust evah !
oh, and they freeze well, so stock up :D
Fast cars, zero to 60 in four seconds, or in the vernacular of shooting sports, a hair trigger. I understand this might lead to less pleasure and overall satisfaction in most instances. ;-)
hmmmmmm
Hmmmmm.
Hmmmmm.
There may be more research required in establishing girlhood lore as worthy of merit.
I’ve missed demi and oldnslow this morning. Wonder what they’re up to?
I am actually getting some work finished here, along with attempting to inject some humor. The printer is humming away at the moment. Another meeting to attend early afternoon.
Thanks again Kris, looking forward to the series.
Glad you’re killing two birds with one stone. Oooops, bad metaphor.
Thanks, Kris; you have a good diary here. I would designate all guns as assault weapons, and those that fire rapidly weapons of mass destruction.
Just busy busy. Worked on painting and moving stuff around yesterday and didn’t do any regular housework, so I was playing catch up this early am. More painting and moving around today.
Great post, Kris. You really have turned your attitude around it sounds like.
Thanks for the hard work.
“What is strangely counterintuitive about the gun debate is that the anti-gun nuts, those calling for a total ban even for hunting, are the main obstacle to rational gun control.”
Yes, that is counterintuitive, and it doesn’t make sense. Not that those idealistic people don’t make sense, but that this should even be considered the ‘main obstacle’ to rational gun control. There will always be people that hate guns; I do. And there will always be idealists – I am one. We are not obstacles. We, in the weapons parlance, aim high. You don’t have to go that far. We will be very happy to see rational gun control. We are not standing in the way of that.
People who want there to be obstacles say that we are obstacles. We are not.
Nobody is going to take your guns away. Look at what Australia did. They still have marksmen and hunters. And they have had no massacres since their laws were instituted twelve days after their last one.
We haven’t had a last one yet.
I have a box in my freezer just for that purpose. Someone (you?) long ago posted a recipe for cheesecake with GS cookie thin mints crust. I hope it isn’t long gone.
I said good morning and thanked you for the post @38. VERY busy today.
Would LOVE to see wayoutwest back up his/her patheticaly transparent bullshit claim about liberals being the problem with some fucking facts.
those calling for a total ban even for hunting, are the main obstacle to rational gun control.”
And, to wayoutwest,
I probably agree with you if I understand your comments in the way you meant them. :)
I don’t have any numbers, but I’m willing to venture a guess that the number of folks who are calling for a total ban even for hunting is probably much too small a number to be considered any real threat or beliefs.
(I probably should keep my mouth shut and keep on painting.)
Show me the
moneynumbahs!I have a hard time understanding the All or Nothing folks.
I choose still kinda hungry over nothing and dead.
Oh, wait, that’s maybe me today, not I think that’s pretty much how I always feel.
What did Dragon consistently remind?
It’s a marathon, not a sprint.
I missed you @38! My bad.
As usual, late to the discussion.
Very thoughtful post, Kris,and comments (with one exception, from a well-known troll who pops up now and then, lobs his troll-bomb, and disappears. Please.do.not.feed)
I’d have to say my thoughts have been expressed already by various people. I know I have moved on from being impressed by knowing someone who married into the Colt family, sort of reflexive glamor, left over from a childhood of watching Westerns all the time, I guess.
Today I do fear that any sensible regulation both can’t be passed, and can’t be enforced because of the huge number of guns already out there.
Kris, thanks for the heads up about the TX proposed legislation; again, my thought has already been mentioned..how can you possibly ensure any gun stays in TX? Just another thumb-your-nose-at-the-federal-government move.
Did you know there were 500 people at the opening of the Lege demonstrating in favor of secession? All of them seem to have shown up in the comments at the Texas Observer article about the first day.
They object to being called secessionists, something like “Texas Nationalist patriots” or some fool name is their preference.
I begin to wonder if I need to get the hell outta Texas before the secessionists succeed. Off-topic, I guess, but actually, related, if only in the subconscious roots of these crazy ideas.
Ooo! I want to know what Anthony thinks.
Good afternoon to you!
The secessionist nuts will not get their way. At least not in this century. No need to worry about them.
Thanks demi, happy painting.
I see that I have stirred the pot somewhat here. We are not really discussing facts here but are looking at what people perceive others agendas are.
When someone who owns guns or hunts, and has never threatened anyone with violence, being blamed for our violence problem they should be wary.
Whenever there is a discussion about guns a number of people always seem to dismiss people’s right to own guns and say disparaging things about hunters. This is a fact and i understand why many people see this agenda as threatning.
The people who honestly believe that we would be better people if we didn’t have guns are patronizing and actually fueling the reaction from the Right. The NRA uses this fear and loathing as one of their main talking points.
There is considerable arrogance in the way Liberals think they know what’s best and think they are smarter than the rest of society.
Awwwww. Don’t do that.
;o)
Every place has their own brand of youknowwhat.
LA’s been taking a beating recently and still.
If you like where you live, your job (which you created) and your friends, meh.
Still fact free. Please stop with the “Liberals think” and the “The people who honestly believe that we would be better people if we didn’t have guns are patronizing and actually fueling the reaction from the Right.” Prove it!
I read this entire comment thread and don’t see ONE instance of what you’re claiming to be “Liberals” always doing.
Put up or STFU.
I will give you a fact; When guns are absent so are gun deaths.
Owning a gun ought not be a Constitutional right. As you know, a Constitutional right is the strongest right established in our laws. A Constitutional right trumps laws created by legislatures in modern times to regulate modern issues.
Now, suggesting that the Second Amendment be repealed does not mean that no one should ever own a gun anywhere at any time. People hunt for food. People hunt for sport. I get it. What repealing the Second Amendment *would* mean is that the right for kids to go to school, or folks to go down to the mall or sit in a movie theatre without getting shot would have a fighting chance to outweigh the “right” for a batshit crayzee fuck to access a gun.
Not to mention delivering newspapers.
guys, do no feed! This under-the-bridge dweller only shows up for hot-button issues like this. Just scroll right past without even reading..it’ll be easier on the blood pressure.
Kris, I hope you’re right. Lotsa things are happening that I once would have thought were not possible, or had been defeated. You’d think several decades of progress hadn’t happened, to see what issues we’re struggling with, yet again.
Oh well. Demi, thanks for your encouraging words, too.
And now, I gotta do some more of that actual work. BBL to take a peek.
That too. Militarized police armed to the teeth who have little respect for the citizens they are hired to “protect and serve” are an issue.
‘Cause those peace officers need guns to take down homeless people. Oh, wait, that’s right. They didn’t actually need guns. They just beat the life out of him.
…and I believe that scenario falls into the category of batshit crayzees having access to guns. Reforming corruption and weeding out arrogant sociopaths from serving in the police (and military) would be helpful.
Yeah. I’m feeding. Gun violence riles me up…
Since you insist on living up to your moniker here are a few examples. Kris@49, rev@54, rev@59, jc@64, yellow@129 and ms@135.
Your brilliant statement about no guns no gun deaths begs the question, how would you remove these evil tools from our citizens. Since it would require dictatorial powers and probably the military, is that part of your agenda to keep us safe?
Wow. You’re cute :)
When I started writing on this topic yesterday, I openly hoped we would get some pro-gun trolls.
This isn’t what I was hoping for. Your arguments are weak and poorly thought out, and you’re just not entertaining at all. You’re not even on topic.
Go back and reread the post. Chase the links and read those as well.
Then, come back next week and read Part 2 of this series, and the week after for Part 3, and the week after for Part 4, and the week after for the Conclusion. Chase the links in each of those posts and read those as well.
Maybe then you’ll be able to hold up your end of an intelligent discourse on the topic at hand, rather than spewing reactionary blather about ‘Liberals’.
On edit – let’s just forget that last part and end with a smiley face :)
cut off all fed funding of their porky air bases, etc, and let’s see how long their secessionist movement lasts.
The Second Ammendment is the least threatened of the Bill Of Rights but it is the one that creates the most heated reactions. Your simplistic solution to random violence is why so many people fear Liberal solutions to complex problems.
This is why rational gun control is easy to defeat, there is always the fear of the Liberal Agenda to remove all gun rights whether true or not.
Do you have any proposals for rational gun control?
Er, did you even read my comment? Might want to read it again. Just sayin’
You are way off base Kris, but this is typical reactionary name calling tripe I’ve come to expect here. Any time someone holds up a mirror to mean spirited Liberal behavior towards others it is taboo and must be attacked.
Even those so called gun worshiping nuts out there have some feelings. Since most of them have never threatened or injured anyone thay have a right to react to these attacks. Sadly they have to depend on the NRA and their reps who do listen to them on this subject.
I don’t think anyone has a right to own military weapons without strict controls and the gun show loophole should be closed but these things will not stop random gun violence.
Suggesting that the 2nd Amendment is antiquated or that private citizens should not be able to own assault weapons is mean-spirited? Or were you referring to calling crazy people crazy?
So typical. I never said anything about taking any guns from on single person. I have never advocated such a thing. But, still, don’t let facts get in your way.
While my statement may in fact be brilliant ( don’t think so) at no point does it suggest that all guns could disappear. It is however, a statement of fact.
Anybody see this yet? Hostage situation in Big Bear. Not sure if it is Dorner…
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/02/12/authorities-responding-to-big-bear-home-on-report-of-hostage-situation-unknown-if-connected-to-dorner/#.URqtemmda_0.twitter
Oi. There’s an interesting development.
It’s Dorner, then.
CNN doesn’t even have it yet.
Twitter rules.
http://ktla.com/live/#axzz2Khge841v
Local TeeVee
Since you own three weapons Kris I’m suprised no one has questioned your virility or called you a crazy gun-nut.
The real question here is, why have Liberals been so unsuccessful in enacting their gun control agenda? My opinion is that most people don’t trust them because a vocal minority of Liberals have a total gun ban agenda and demean anyone who disagrees with that agenda.
I love that you continue to pose questions without answering the ones asked of you. Seems like a great way to have a conversation.
People haven’t labeled me a gun nut because I’m not one. I would gladly give up my firearms if my government told me I had to. I don’t claim I need them to defend myself. I don’t carry them. I own them simply because I enjoy shooting them from time to time.
The real question here is not what you claim. The real question is why, in the face of overwhelming evidence that it is unsafe and unnecessary, do people such as yourself continue to rationalize widespread gun ownership?
Hunh. 2 officers down, LAPD sez.
I told oldnslow this past Saturday while we were having lunch that Dorner would not be captured. The LAPD, or whatever law enforcement agency ends up responding, will kill him.
I also told him that Dorner would kill multiple people in that confrontation.
I hope I’m not right.
Yeah, LAPD has an interest in killing him rather than capturing him, for sure.
Sounds like Dorner may be on foot after throwing some smoke granades.
Too many versions of what is happening to figure out what the truth is. Either he escaped in a truck and is being chased, or he’s holed up in a cabin.
Whatever. This will end badly.
Kris, do you realize how pathetic your statement about giving up your guns if the Gov tells you to sounds? It may be a futile gesture to cling to our guns but voluntarily submiting to our corrupt regime is beyond cowardice.
Can you at least see that some believe guns are a public health hazard? Government has a responsibility to “promote the general welfare”. Guns have become antithetical to that.
2 Helicopters and 40 swat team members on their way.
Reports say cope request media cut live feed. Typical.
Now I’m a pathetic coward? Because I don’t hold some delusion that my 2 handguns and my semi-automatic .22 rifle could possibly defend me from a corrupt government?
I would give up my guns as part of an action by our government to end gun violence, yes. Cowardice would be clinging to those guns with the delusion that they somehow protect me.
You’re still not answering questions. It’s fun to watch you dance, though.
Not saying … just saying
FWIW, back in the ancient times, when I grew up in a red rectangle state, there were all kinds of people with rifles in the gunracks of their pickups, especially during hunting season.
The first day of deer hunting season was like an undeclared state holiday, where, iirc, at least 40% of the boys were absent, hunting with their dads uncles or grandpas
Kris does not need me to defend his statements nor does he believe that any angency will come for his guns any time soon. However, Kris is a hobbyist as are millions of other Americans and enjoys having and shooting his guns.
Kris, to his ever lasting credit, is all but desperate to participate in, and provide a forum for, a rational, reasonable discussion about a very serious issue that troubles him deeply. A discussion that MUST include relevent facts. A discussion that can not be allowed to be hijacked by perpetual victims and talking point spewers like our visitor wayoutwest.
Just sittin’ here shakin’ ma head.
There’s just no accounting.
Me, too.
I feel like I am walking on eggs when guns are the topic.(Sorta like I feel when my PSTD Iraqi-Afghanistan buddy brings out his assault rifle and tell me how much fun they had getting drunk at a remote campsite and drawing deputies from two counties shooting them off):(
Can’t help but notice that I’m not your cupcake. What a surprise.
Irrespective the fact that you decided I’m both old and slow, which by the way exposes you as not very observant, I am actually neither. If you weren’t such a professional victim you might have taken the time to look at my profile to see just what you might be dealing with.
Hope to see more of you. Soon.
Striving to be in this world, but not of this world. Heh?
Surrounding ourselves with white light.
Singing a song.
{{{demi}}}
You are so wise. It is an honor to call you friend.
Oh, gosh. I just reread what I wrote and I thought a bunch a folks are going to read that and puke. :)
So, thanks.
You too, ((oldnslow)).
And, oldnslow, I’m surrounding myself with white light and singing and still shaking my head.
Kris did an extraordinary job here today.
JC, brother man, you get as much say as any other American, including our professional victim visitor, in the discussion. What we choose to say is the measure of the value of our contribution, now isn’t it?
I work in a manufaturing environment as many here know. Recently the subject of gun control came up at break time. (ALL of my coworkers are gun owners) I asked simply; “imagine what our response would be to someone that suggested our response to a recurring problem should be business as usual?” There, of course was only stunned silence.
By now, I expect you have a PHD in speaking sense to those guys you work with. Fun to read about. Thanks and please continue. It’s like a barometer for me. Do you know what I mean?
Yea, I was just commenting on my experience. Wasn’t taking sides
Got off the phone with him half hr ago. Told him so. The personification of courage.
To start a dialog you don’t really want to have. Courage.
To openly admit you may have been wrong. Courage.
To admit a willingness to abandon the things you enjoy for the greater good. Courage.
To stand an unpopular position because it is morally correct. Courage.
(to witness it has been an honor)
Sorry! It was not my intention to imply that you had said something wrong. Quite the contrary. It was just an opening for me to get something off my chest. Again, sorry if it came off as an attack.
I just love you two.
I have tears.
So, another different experience is when I went to a bachelors party
This was in the same red rectangular state, and my boss’s cousin was getting married. So, they were having a party in some bar, in some small town. Ok, their idea of a bachelors party and my idea, didn’t exactly mesh, because all it seemed to be was a bunch of people standing around a bar drinking beer. Boring.
Then the bar was closing, and they said to go to someone’s house. I thought it might get interesting – strippers or something. Uh, no. Just people standing around drinking, although I think somebody lit a joint. Big whoop. I was pretty bored and started looking for my boss so I could give him a ride home.
I walked through the kitchen, and, there were three guys standing around the table passing a big bottle of whiskey between them. They reminded me of Larry, Darrel, and Darrel from Newhart. I found out later two of them were brothers and one was a cousin of each other. I didn’t think much of it at the time other than, wow, there are actually people who look like that.
So, I found my boss and we were walking out to my Blazer and all of the sudden we hear
Larry, Darrel, and Darrel had rifles and were shooting at each other
Nobody got hit. But it could’ve been bad news
Again, my experience
Sorry I’ve been AFK most of the day. Our friend wayoutwest is a sockpuppet for backeast, who got banned awhile ago. Not sure how wayoutwest hasn’t been discovered and banned too. Pay him/her no mind.
Hiya, msmolly. I hadn’t thought of that connection; I’m sure you’re right. This sockpuppet only appears occasionally; waits for a hot button issue and then de-lurks.
I sympathize with the sentiments of those responding, but from my experience, there really is no point.
(not that I haven’t on occasion ignored my own advice)
So now you want me banned for having an inconvinent opinion, how Liberal of you. You do represent the groupthink and narrow minded Liberal backstabbing that i have despised since my radical youth.
I can see no reason why someone suicidal would be more inclined to get a gun then someone who isnt but looking for all the people who have guns because their wife or parents want them to, or all their bar friends have one and kidded him for not being part of the crowd would be a check to find out for sure.
However just like nervice people smoke more and people in danger are more likely to get guns make gun owners more likely to be shot a given even if for some reason such as bad hands would change the situation.
On the other side is a distortion in the NRA claim that Switzerland and Sweden have lots of guns but not gun crime. War, and war in ones lifetime make it more likely to die a civilian gun death.
One statistic makes gun ownership dangerous. If one has a lot of unsecured liquid assets such as cash, drugs, diamonds or guns or people suspect you do, your life is in danger.
People make this less dangerous with a sticker on the door house is alarmed hooked up to a alarm monetizing system. With a little education as to the danger of unsecured valuables. People would have stickers that the guns are in a secure fingerprint locking bag with a tracking device on it, hooked up to a alarm monitoring system even if the alarm call up was fake. People could also be instructed that waving a gun in someones face encourages any of the victims friends watching to shoot or try to steal their gun.
The elementary school kids at Sandy Hook would have been saved unless the police acted slow when the mother wasnt answering when the police called. Especially if the alarm was stopped without her getting on the phone to them.
The police could have finger pint-locking gun holsters when intervening in a crowded situation, and in a traffic stop the up close cop would be a lot safer if his gun holster was expected to be locked so no one would think to shoot first before they were shot
More at,
http://my.firedoglake.com/richardkanepa