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This is the 3rd post in an ongoing series. Click for Part 1 and Part 2.
Good morning firedogs, and happy Tuesday!
A match revolver, used in competition shooting.
What follows are a number of our ‘peer’ Nations and their legal procedures for obtaining a firearm. For some of these nations I’ve included a bit of background for context.
The UK
In Hungerford, Berkshire, England on August 19th, 1987, Michael Robert Ryan shot 31 people, killing 16 of them. He then turned the weapon on himself and ended his life. He was 27 years old. Michael was the legal, registered owner of the two semi-automatic rifles and the semi-automatic pistol used in the shootings.
In response to what came to be known as the Hungerford Massacre the UK government passed the amended Firearms Act of 1988. This sweeping reform outlawed burst-fire weapons, semi-automatic or pump-action rifles (excepting those chambered for .22 rimfire), rifles with a barrel length shorter than 24 inches or overall length shorter than 40 inches, many revolvers, and some pistols. The Act also gave the Home Secretary the power to ban any firearm deemed “specially dangerous” or designed to evade a metal detector, provided that the weapon hadn’t been widely sold in Britain before the passage of the act. This law remained in place and unamended until 1997.
On March 13th, 1996, Thomas Hamilton entered the Dunblane Primary School in Dunbane, Scotland. He was armed with 4 semi-automatic handguns. Hamilton shot and killed 16 children and one adult before taking his own life.
The Dunblane School Massacre led to the Amended Firearms Act of 1997, which made private ownership of handguns (excepting .22 rimfire) illegal in the UK.
Most weapons are thus prohibited in the UK. There are some exceptions. Muzzle-loading handguns are permitted, as are some black-powder weapons. Some historic or antique firearms are still allowed as collectibles, and some sporting rifles and shotguns are still permitted.
The licensing process is rigorous, involving an official inquiry into the individual applying. The inquiry consists of a home visit to check safety measures and storage facilities for the firearm, interviews with references provided by the applicant, a rigorous background check, mental health screening by way of needed approval from the applicant’s family doctor, and more.
To obtain a firearm in the UK, the applicant must have “good reason” to possess the firearm. Each firearm is individually licensed, with the application process repeated for each gun a person requests to own.
Self-defense has not been an accepted reason to own a gun in the UK since 1968.
Japan
Japanese gun laws have always been incredibly rigid. Very strict governmental regulations have been in place for centuries. Japan’s gun statute begins -
No-one shall possess a fire-arm or fire-arms or a sword or swords…
Only certain rifles and shotguns are permitted in Japan, after a lengthy licensing process, and only for sporting reasons. A Japanese citizen cannot legally hold a firearm unless they have a license.
Self-defense is not a valid reason to own a firearm according to Japanese law.
Australia
From Wikipedia -
Australia today has arguably some of the most restrictive firearms legislation in the world
Following the Port Arthur Massacre of 1996, which left 35 dead and 21 wounded, Australia enacted tough gun control measures.
Firearms are categorized with a letter designation (A, B, C, etc.), with the safest type of firearm, Category A, requiring government licensing to own. Category A includes airsoft rifles that are available in any WalMart or Target in the US, and can be purchased here by children. In Australia you need a license to own a plastic pellet gun. Most common firearms are not permissible to anyone outside Government in Australia.
Handguns and most rifles and shotguns are only permitted to competition shooters who maintain active membership in a shooting club, and these active members must participate in a specified number of competitions each year to maintain their licensing status.
From Wiki again -
Before someone can buy a firearm, he or she must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28-day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g., Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a “Genuine Reason” must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defense is not accepted as a reason for issuing a license, even though it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defense.
Each firearm in Australia must be registered to the owner by serial number. Some states allow an owner to store or borrow another person’s registered firearm of the same category. (My bold.)
I’m seeing a trend here…
Well dear reader. We are again rapidly approaching my word count restriction. Seems to be another trend with these posts.
A number of our peer Nations have similar restrictions. Private citizens are not allowed to possess guns in China. Pump-action shotguns and semi-automatic rifles are banned in Austria. In France, one needs a hunting license or a sport shooting license to possess a firearm. Germany has some of the strictest gun laws in the world.
Even in Canada, where gun restrictions are considered fairly lax, handgun possession is heavily restricted. Handguns with a barrel length under 4.1 inches are prohibited altogether.
In short, dear reader, the rest of the modern world seems to be either smarter than the United States of America, or these other nations have much smaller gun lobbies. Which brings me to the close of this post, and the introduction of next week’s topic – Next Tuesday we will examine the NRA and other gun lobbies in the United States.
This is Over Easy. Off topic is safe and always welcome. I’ve genuinely enjoyed the discussions in our last two posts, and I greatly look forward to seeing you all in the comments today.
Image By Simon Bigot [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons.
174 Comments
Good morning firedogs.
Good morning, Kris. Another good one! Up to read!
Thanks, Kris, I’m curious about the existence of constitutional gun laws in other lands, it’s been the basis for so much nonsense in our debate, as long as the gun regulations opponents ignore the part about a well-regulated militia. Simple law seems to be a lot harder to handle if you want to avoid people shooting each other as a general practice.
In the 1980′s, I read that there were only 12 guns legally in private hands in Japan. They were owned by members of their Olympic shooting teams.
Me, I’d just like to see people with access to guns required to take a regular mental health checkup. This would include soldiers, cops, FBI, and congresscritters. And a ban on ridiculous guns and clip sizes.
Okay, a fully automatic machine gun is fun to shoot. So is a howitzer. I’d surrender that cheerfully just to see if removing those would reduce the carnage.
Boxturtle (If it doesn’t, the heck with it and I’m buying me a mini-gun)
I had no idea the laws in other countries were so tough and restrictive. Somehow when I read about the lower rates of shootings it’s always been attributed to differences in culture. Apparently not entirely. There seems to be no “cold dead hand” mentality that keeps us from passing good firearms laws.
Australia’s central government (federal) was not permitted to change gun laws, so had to force all of the states on board to pass their current restrictions. It was a tough, tough process, but gun deaths are down drastically since the new laws went into effect.
I thought pretty much the same thing. When I started reading about this last week I was a bit shocked to find that many of our peers and neighbors, including Mexico, have tougher gun restrictions than we do.
There are some nations that have enforcement issue, like Brazil and Mexico, but at least their governments were able to put laws in place.
Thanks. That’s sounding like marriage equality here, to me. Of course, if we just instituted a well regulated militia and replaced our military establishment with it – requirihg everyone to maintain a good record and reasonable gun, and serve a term on security duty – it might increase our viability as a country too.
I didn’t come across a hard number yesterday, but 12 seems about right.
Japan’s gun laws are part of their culture. They stem from the 17th century, IIRC. People just don’t feel the need to own guns in Japan. Nobody wants one.
Airsoft is very, very big over there. Airsoft weapons aren’t heavily regulated, unlike in Australia.
Any restrictions we attempt will likely result in something like this.
I worry if we get restrictions if we won’t start putting otherwise lawabiding people in jail for possession. Right beside the otherwise lawabiding locked up for possession.
I still think a solution for America is going to have to accept private ownership of guns and we need to find a workable solution to the violence within that. otherwise, we’ll create more problems than we’ll solve.
Boxturtle (Tell me you want to be the fellow who confiscates AR15′s in Georgia)
Thanks for the postnhost, Kris.
Your series is a good example of getting to the real facts as opposed to misconceptions. It struck me that many of us thought the issue was cultural rather than legislative.
As a humanities teacher, the end result of student enquiry for me
is to have an “habitually open mind”, a willingness to change one’s opinion in the face of new evidence.(which is the opposite of McCarthyism I see today.)
America has accepted private ownership of guns since its establishment. Look where that’s gotten us.
Confiscation isn’t even vaguely on the horizon, but keeps making the conversation into a right wing rant. We don’t confiscate unregistered cars, they can sit forever in the yard if your neighbors are okay with the scenery. When you use them, though, you get into that area of law that prevents one person from harming others.
Good thoughtful post on guns.
I think the trip wire is any regulation that reduces instantaneous response be it a locked cabinet or a trigger lock. The loonies in government won’t solve this problem until we solve the brought and paid for government loonies problem.
Lisa Graves and John Nichols on Democracy Now discussing the latest on Pete Peterson/Simpson/Bowles, “Fix the Debt,” Austerity agenda.
Lies and more lies, written background from PR Watch headlines.
Morning People, limited time this morning from this node.
buyback programs work. in this economy, esp.
and it is a cultural issue. and a racial one. the swiss are armed and don’t seem to have lots of problems with massacres. but they are culturally much more similar than we are.
here, we’ve got the mighty wurlitzer going on 24/7 depicting Die Hard style fantasies and news reports and plenty of discourse designed to make white people feel Very Afraid.
good morning. cat got me up nice and early this morning. fud was needed, and my role as fud serving slave was affirmed, loudly.
Yeah, but we’ve stupidly insisted upon almost no controls on them. And anything goes.
We let the NRA flog the issue with falsehoods and contgesscritters back them. There’s no pushback at all from the top about the level of BS being thrown about. A state passes a law to criminalize enforcing fenderal regulations. The DoJ does nothing. A sheriff refuses to obey the law. the DoJ does nothing. What are those folks, bankers?!?
A group of crazies is forming a city in Idaho. Their first act is to get the paperwork to manufacture firearms. Which is cheerfully provided.
Boxturtle (We really need a mental health system in this country)
Anybody find it interesting that the UK and Australia were both able to pass sweeping reforms in response to Massacres like Sandy Hook or Aurora, but the US has done nothing since Columbine?
The UK had Hungerford, passed a huge law, and then had Dunblane, and passed an even stricter law. They’ve only had once mass shooting since.
Not to derail the excellent conversation which I hope continues for awhile, but please bookmark this Time article for later reading:
Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us
Yes, I know. Nothing remotely resembling confisgation, everybody is making a point that current guns will be grandfathered. If anything, I see a loosening of regulations on guns coming from this.
I was using that example to make the point that there are people who value their guns more than they value the law and they’ll shoot.
Boxturtle (The government knows this, yet nothing is done)
Good morning all and thanks for the postnhost Kris. Another post well done.
Absolutely and combined with hefty liability insurance and registration requirements needing to be renewed at a regular basis would make a dent in the amount of guns out there. A dent is helpful here.
I’ve heard that such programs work where they’ve been offered. That might get rid of some guns.
I followed a battered pickup truck yesterday that had the back plastered (like edge to edge) with anti-Obama stickers, including “Obama is not my President” and a “take from the workers and give to the non-workers” and a couple of racist ones. It occurred to me as a quick unavoidable stereotyping based on nothing except the condition of the truck, that I hoped he didn’t have a gun in there.
one aspect of the MIC is the gun manufacturing part. sure, they sell lots and lots to the gummint so our forces have shiny new weapons. but they also make a great deal of money selling gunz to “hobbyists” and paranoid types.
i have been doing some thrift and pawn shop store shopping here in TX. gunz are everywhere. and pretty cheap, all things being equal. any mentally unstable person with $20 can get a handgun.
i blame american white men for our inability to have sensible weapons laws. imho Michael Moore put it best, in one of his films. remember that little cartoon part, where he explained why white people need so many guns? because deep down, a lot of white folks are deeply afraid that non-white people are going to rise up and take revenge for the racism they’ve experienced from white people. for the smaller minded white folks, i can believe that.
but as usual, i also say, “follow the money.” weapons dealing is a big business.
The UK requires licensing renewal every 5 years. If you don’t renew your license, they come looking for you.
Good Morning Kris and Firedogs -
myth busting abounds – just a wiki type read of what Australia did blew my mind – they confiscated, um, bought back – it CAN be done
and I hadn’t even thought about the legislative restrictions on the Central Govt. – damn, the will of the People, what a concept
chicago dyke – the Swiss have on demand mental health care and their’s is a culture that treats mental health as it would any other health issue – without the backward,medieval stigma we have in this country
this is another excellent read Kris, am so proud of you
Good morning Dad.
And good morning to you :)
OT,
A little good-natured humor directed toward our less than esteemed “governor,” Walker, from one of WI’s best and brightest, the Siren.
Feel free to be creative, I’m sure.
AJE piece on Australian gun control, and their take on whether similar laws could work in the US.
When smart policies that the rest of the western world have adopted elude us, a significant factor in our political disfunction is, as here, the rancid residue of our nation’s original sin.
possible and striking parallels between us and South Africa are emerging in the wake of the Pistorius tragedy -
(don’t get me started on the dad AND the brother- geez)
a SA tweep ‘splaining when Oscar expresses concern about ‘intruders’, it’s not coming from a celebrity rightfully concerned about a stalker, but a South African white male worried about the post apartheid dark hordes – apparently a common (and oh so lucrative for some) meme
AJE tells me that gun control legislation came only 12 days after the Port Arthur Massacre.
Has it been 12 days since Sandy Hook yet?
oooh, thankee
Nonq, did you see this?
The Continuing Adventures of Wisconsin, Onetime State
how is the huffer thing goin’ ?
Watch it. I’m 7 minutes in, pretty good piece.
Going great. I smoked a cigarette yesterday. Smoked 2 on Sunday. Haven’t smoked one today.
Name: You Areadick
Email: pleaseresign@aol.com
LOL! What a hoot!
Are these the e-cigs, Kris?
i got into a little trouble recently blogging in favor of weapons education for youth. i had it growing up. it made me realize that weapons are loud, dangerous, and scary, not to mention that they hurt things, living things. i think someone here said it, “when i was young, i went hunting w/dad and killed a deer. and then i was all like ‘well that sucked.’” cause it was dead.
there’s probably nothing we can do for the old white guys who grew up in the scary days when black people were demonstrating and demanding equal rights. but i do believe that educating children about guns (not necessarily putting guns in their hands, but giving them an education about them, based on science) could help raise a new generation of more responsible people.
not to blame the video gaming industry, but perhaps a little less time on the xbox for the 5-15 set would be good too. kids need to learn that life is not a video game, when it comes to guns.
Heh. Former Aussie PM who passed their gun control in the late 90′s.
When I say I smoked a cigarette yesterday and 2 on Sunday, I’m referring to real cigarettes.
I’ve been using the e-cig since Saturday morning.
No, but that was common knowledge to most of us in the state.
Your link to the Esquire piece is a link to your own FDL comment. Anyway, I’ll copy and paste, when I get a chance, thanks for the heads up.
Another OT, did you catch the link at the end of the weekend sourdough discussion? Nothing left to the imagination about how to do it, even with a bread machine that can be set for getting your starter going successfully.
We talked a bit about this on last week’s thread. The consensus among us seemed to be the same. What guns actually do to people is a great mystery in the United States, and never portrayed accurately in movies or tv shows. If people had a better idea of what a gunshot really does to some one, I can’t help but think that idea would act as a natural deterrent in some cases.
Not all, but some is a start.
That happens sometimes, not sure why but WordPress puts the comment number at the front of the URL and I didn’t scroll all the way back to see it.
Try again.
No, I haven’t been back to the sourdough discussion. I will read. I just need to get busy on it with the dried culture I bought from Sourdough, Inc. I have everything I need, just have to get at it.
Ive been hearing alot about the upcoming hearing on the Trayvon Martin case and the validity of the Stand your Ground claim by the
defendant. Of course, SYG will be important, but does not address the issue of a neighborhood watch volunteer having a gun.
Just stupid.
going completely off topic, did yall see this? it’s very kewl: sports, not killing, saves the world
it’s great to hear the one dood in the crowd at the end say in english “I love you.” heartwarming.
‘well that sucked.’” cause it was dead. came up several times with convicted rampage killers and former gang bangers in last week’s PBS coverage – (and I recall it being pointed out in FDL threads)
how do we teach ‘consequences’ ? in my outrage, I’ve suggested we see that open coffin of the Newtown six year old with half his head blown off – but worry we would become inured to it’s horror
and we have to tread lightly on the subject of video games – it’s the arms manufacturers fave red herring . . . kids around the planet play the same games without our murderous results
OT – Pretty awesome video of a guy demonstrating rights of refusal at DHS and Border Patrol checkpoints on the road.
Even the defense is saying SYG doesn’t apply. They’re calling it a simple self defense case.
When I did neighborhood watch, weapons were forbidden, not even mace. You could walk your dog with you when you were on patrol and a lot of us had big dogs. But that was it. Our job was to observe and call the police.
Boxturtle (Dog got walked a lot, but I never had cause to call the police)
some state commission released it’s SYG findings (yesterday ?) and basically said ‘fine but with greater scrutiny and controls’
y’all know SYG has spread via joint effort by ALEC/NRA, right ?
Perlstein has been writing about it since 07
Makes me weep; talk about license to kill. Im thinking even if there is not a criminal conviction, there could still be a civil
suit, such as OJ. But this kid is probably without assets, not that it = much comfort, but at least would be something.
I guess a Fla jury worries me, but not based on anything really.
Just such a tragedy and the police did not even arrest.
Went to the link. Wish I’d known about it before I ordered the San Francisco sourdough culture (IIRC $14.95). But I have what I need, I just have to get around to it before the weather warms up and I’m not in the mood to bake.
Making some of my vegetable soup today. Supposed to have freezing rain and then snow today, good day to stay in and make soup!
Part of my research for these posts led me to a statistic that showed a 7-10% increase in homicide rates in states that pass stand your ground laws.
I’m having trouble finding it now. I guess I should take notes on my links…
Not a fan of SYG laws. If a crook enters my home to rob me, he should expect to get shot. If that same crook finds me on the street, he should expect to get outrun.
Boxturtle (Adrenalin is wonderful stuff)
yes, jury selection will weigh heavily here
too lazy to fish for link, but recall significant ballistic results, showing Zimmerman lied about the specifics of the confrontation – he put the gun to that child’s chest and pulled the trigger – 2nd degree conviction at a bare minimum. god I hope the prosecutors are up for this
same with Conceal Carry on College Campuses (which just passed AR Senate yesterday) = ALEC/NRA
In short, dear reader, the rest of the modern world seems to be either smarter than the United States…IMO.
Fixed your typo. FYT.
thanks for that, Kris. that was totally awesome.
This is interesting, yes, and reminds me of a shocking experience I had two years ago with a new acquaintance. I thought he must be just ranting when he started saying that the immigrants’ whole plan is to come “here” and take over. “That’s what they do.” He wasn’t joking. Turned out to be a very scary, very undesirable acquaintance. In the US, this proudly ex-mercenary would probably have guns, perhaps in concealed -or, gasp, open- carry. Scares the shit out of me. And the attitude and intellect is beyond stupid. Oh, and I was also, informed that, ALL dark people, EVEN those who have been absolved, are terrorists. Hell, this guy probably thinks UN Secretary Generals are part of the conspiracy.
Okay, that’s enough: I’m scaring myself! I never expected to run into such dangerous nonsense in person. In a workplace that has a high proportion of non-whites, who must be able to sense this stuff just under the surface. I feel for all of us.
Totally, Kris! Out of the park, AGAIN!
Great video. Great resistance!
Off on a couple of errands before the freezing rain arrives. BBL, prolly.
Thanks for a great post, Kris!
I don’t add caveats to facts.
Oh, they are. They’ve got Zimmerman and they know it. The only way he walks is with a crap jury or a crap judge.
Were I him, I’d be trying for a deal. But his lawyer trying the case in the newspapers has annoyed (at least!) the judge so the judge may be disinclined to accept a bargain.
Boxturtle (His odds would be better if he had shut up early on)
From Mother Jones – The Trayvon Martin Killing, One Year Later.
caveat, a warning. Are you using it in this manner? I disagree with the statement and it is your opinion, no.
Thanks Kris
I wonder how this approach would work with a sobriety check point on a national holiday weekend on a county or state patrol level. Will need to do some checking, although I do not drink any amount of alcohol and drive.
Just a note…on my way out.
for Kris, the Drink Liberally is again
at the Dog & Duck near the drag. I think
this is probably the most central location.
One topic = the sequestration…..No idea if
I will try to go….Thanks for the post,
I really almost blew off my feet yesterday;)
Not so much an opinion as documented truth. Other countries are smarter than us. But you can call it an opinion if you’d like.
I don’t think I’ll make it to a Drinking Liberally anytime soon (weeknights are shitty for me right now), but we should certainly start working on putting together an Austin-area firedog meetup. I know GW and Kit have expressed interest, and there are others in the area as well.
I’m not sure how it applies to local police. I’ve seen in the past that you should always question whether or not you are being detained. If the officer answers that you are not being detained, you should then ask if you are free to go. Keep repeating until they tell you you’re being detained or until they let you leave :)
DUI checkpoints at holidays sometimes feature a suspension of some rules and restrictions (read RIGHTS), so I’m not sure how this would fly with locals or Staties on a holiday weekend.
You can take it to the source Kris, it will still be an opinion. And it will still be an opinion I disagree with. Free country and all that shit.
funny how so many of those Top 10′s treat their teachers differently than us, innit ? :D
How are compiled statistics opinions?
And socialized medicine, and higher living wages, and better standard of living…
If you were to try that at a DUI checkpoint here, they’d tell you that you have a right to refuse the test. Which is an automatic 6 month license suspension. Doesn’t matter if it’s a holiday or not, if a driver refuses a DUI check they’ll lift your license on the spot and tow it if you don’t have a driver.
Local lawyers advise that if you think you’ll fail, it’s better to refuse it. There’s no fine or jail time or points for refusal.
Boxturtle (I’d like to be angry at the checkpoints, but they seem to actually work)
Good morning, cbl and pupses. Thank you, Kris, for your excellent series.
cbl, to your point, here is a quote by Canadian physician Gabor Mate, from an excellent article recommended by nonqui.
From Democracy Now!
Just another way our unregulated, predatory capitalism is destroying the fabric of our society.
i don’t think DUI checkpoints are any more Constitutional than the immigration status ones. i do not drink and drive, ever. i do, however, believe that it’s unconstitutional for the cops or DHS or whomever to stop americans driving in america who have not committed an observable offense.
i hate drunk drivers. they make good drunks who don’t look bad and they kill people. but there are better ways than stop-checks.
how about more public transportation? we could make more of that in the form of trains and late night buses and trolleys, and create jerbs in the process. win-win!
Well the D.E.A.’s got a drone in the air
They can see me shooting targets when I’m scared
I learned a thing or two from ol’ Charlie don’t you know
but I can’t stop a hellfire from thumping Copperhead Road
(stir-it-up is my middle name)
Not in fact the case and I speak as somebody licensed when in the UK to carry a pistol — granted I’m rarely in the UK these days as:
• My holdings pretty there are looked after by a good agent and anyway pretty much run themselves.
• My English relatives with one exception upped sticks and moved either to Ireland or to sunnier climes.
My BGs are also licensed carriers. I will grant you that it’s extraordinarily difficult verging on the impossible to get such a license. I expect at next renewal (58 months from now) that as the threat level is now substantially reduced that I will be told my license will not be renewed. Speaking as somebody who has used guns and other weapons “in anger” all my adult life this is as it should be.
These remarks apply also to Ireland although as I’m commissioned the basis for my holding arms there is different.
I will note that there is also a cultural factor. Americans in my experience never consider either withdrawal or negotiation they always escalate and that’s assuming there was a causam discordiae in the first place.
mfi
Note to self: Use the blasted preview thingy
• My holdings there are looked after by a good agent and anyway pretty much run themselves.
mfi
Self-defense is accepted only in cases for people who are in a sensitive position, like cash couriers, bankers who make large deposits, people who have reason to fear for their lives because of an explicit threat, etc.
I should note that Northern Ireland is excepted from the entire scope of UK gun laws.
good job Kris ! excellent discussion Firedogs
headed out for a day in cookie world – y’all have a good day
All my children got rigorous firearms training and my grandchildren are getting the same. Said training is just part of teaching them how to use any dangerous tool. I’ve had the pleasure this weekend of being helped prepare lunch by my five years old twins in the kitchen. They handled and used some very sharp knives confidently and competently without danger to themselves or others.
mfi
i would like to have a TX meetup. i can’t afford to drive to austin right now, but keep me informed of others that happen in the future.
Yup to both, which is why I carry I’m considered to be in a sensitive position.
mfi
We should check out the article to which msmolly links @19. Saw the writer interviewed last evening on PBS and his remarks seemed to strongly support lowering the age of Medicare eligibility.
In Ohio, the reasoning goes like this: Your drivers license is a privilege, not a right. At any time the state can check to make sure you meet the requirements for license and remove it if you don’t.
It’s NOT a search under law, it’s a bureaucratic exercise. Some people have won cases where they were charged because of something the cop saw at a DUI checkpoint. Courts do not seem to be entirely consistent on admissible evidence obtained via DUI checkpoint.
If there’s a better way than stop checks other than deputizing every bartender, I’m open minded.
Boxturtle (Bartenders in Ohio have been convicted of providing one too many drinks)
Thanks for the insight mfi. In my post I was addressing most private citizens, and from my research most private citizens in the UK can’t provide a valid reason of ‘defense’ for firearms ownership. There has to be something to defend, if you get my meaning. You cited your interests and holdings.
Actually driving licenses even under American law are a privilege not a right – there is an exception and that is where you are dependent upon your license for your livelihood but that’s a side-effect of “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness” rather than anything to do with driving per se. Given that its a right not a privilege how about upping the ante and introducing the Swedish (exceptionally severe) or Danish (not as tough as the Swedes but still very very rigorous) drink drive laws. You’d see the carnage caused by drunk drivers drop dramatically.
I am completely unsympathetic to the argument advanced above that there is such a thing as a “good” drunk driver. Anyone who puts their drunken pleasure over the right of their fellow citizen not to be injured, maimed, or killed by an incompetently handled dangerous machine deserves all the retribution that can be dished out to them.
mfi
i feared that, when i was a bartender, BT. it’s totally unfair. your job is to serve drinks. you are not a medical professional or police officer and you’ll often get fired if you “just say no” to the regular sot whose purchases keep the bar in the black.
public transportation. chicago has a totally awesome summer trolley that does a pub crawl for suburban drinkers coming in to the city for an event or something. it takes them to all the famous bars and then drops them off at their hotels. it is hilarious to behold. it’s like a rolling mardi gras.
This was in fatsters roundup. Posted here because it’s on topic.
http://www.alternet.org/most-mass-shootings-target-women-and-families-study-finds-men-legal-guns-are-blame
Boxturtle (Confession: I believed that most of the shootings were by illegal guns)
If I may, I believe her intention was to say
i hate drunk drivers. they make good drunks who don’t (drive) look bad and they kill people.
i have been a bartender, as i said, and i do NOT drive if i have consumed ANY amount of alcohol. if i have to drive home, i’m not drinking at an event. i miss chicago a lot in this respect; it was easy to get a cab or take a train home from the bars. so i went out a lot, got tits up drunk while dancing in the clubs, and responsibly paid another person to take me home. like you, i have little sympathy for drunk drivers.
however, here in places like rural TX, there are no buses. there are no trains. and they like them some liquor down here. in a civilized nation, there would be a stimulus bill to create massive public transportation networks so that people could easily choose the responsible option.
but instead we spend it on wars and bailouts for banksters. sigh.
Actually it’s my being a “felix” that’s the cause. Any bomb disposal officer is a target and that is what I started out as. My work in Irak (going nicely thank you – I’ll be there from tomorrow and will have the great pleasure of seeing the kids in two of our orphanages move into their completely renovated living quarters and go to class in two completely renovated schools) has also made me a target which is why I have bgs wherever I go.
mfi
Almost ALL mass shootings are with legally registered firearms. Aurora and Sandy Hook, for example, were perpetrated with perfectly legal guns. So were the mass shootings I mention in the above post. So was the shooting of Gabby Giffords.
Thank you for elaborating. That serves to illustrate how seriously the UK takes private ownership and carrying of guns. You have an extremely sensitive and fairly unique position.
Drunk driving is the norm here in Texas. People do it constantly. I’m shocked that there aren’t more fatalities.
Yes I know she was I supporting her position. Both Sweden and Denmark – especially Denmark have very vigorous social lives involving alcohol. They also have very tough laws about drinking and driving.
mfi
Sliding back by.. I didn’t disagree with any compiled statistics. No no, I disagree with the modern world being a little smarter than the the US. I pretty sure that’s an opinion. And yes our schools suck. Gotta run.
Have lived in Sweden and am in complete agreement with their strict driving and gun laws.
Thanks again for the good discussion. Hats off, Kris.
Ohmmmm
Well, it’s not TOTALLY unfair, imo. There are times when a bartender knows or should know that his customer has had enough. At least one bartender has won in civil court against an owner who fired him for refusing service.
What annoys me is when they go after the bartender because of an accident and there’s no way the bartender could have reasonably noticed. I behave normally at .1, a lot of folks do, and the standard is .08 .
Our public transportation is barely there in this area. But taxis come with a phone call.
Boxturtle (Thinks drivers should have to pass test to retrieve car keys from bartender)
When you can conclusively demonstrate that other nations are better educated, the product of that education is a more educated populous.
Now, if you’d like to pick apart my prose and get down to the base of the statement, I suppose it is an opinion that those nations have a higher level of intelligence. The spirit of my statement, however, was based on evidence. It may not be scientifically proven that other modern nations are more intelligent, but all evidence suggests that they are.
See, for example, socialized healthcare, modernized infrastructure, stricter gun control, better education… all programs and laws that serve the good of the people, which seems to me to be evidence of greater intelligence.
Either greater intelligence, or far less ego and pride. Maybe a bit of both?
Thanks for dropping in Om :)
I can see how the rural TX situation could be problematic – even if you manage to organise a circle of “nominated drivers” the logistics could be tricky.
I agree with you about public transport. One initiative that has saved a LOT of lives is that on those four weekends when most places hold their Christmas party ALL public transport runs for 24 hours and is free.
Drink driving injuries and deaths on those weekends dropped by something in the order of 80% the first year it was introduced.
mfi
Stop breaking my preconceived notions!!!
Boxturtle (Next you’ll be telling me that all Moslems aren’t terrorists!)
having a degree in Science, i know that there is little difference between humans, in terms of intelligence, mostly everywhere.
having worked in admissions and education, i know that Science also can help us understand why there are differences, and why tests are useful… to a point.
food. pre-K education. keeping religion out of the classroom. allowing girls to get an education. birth control. well paid and well educated teachers. health care.
these are things they do in Finland, but not in Texass. this is why Finland (my father’s father’s father’s homeland, whoo hoo!) does better than the US.
but i will warn yall that the usefulness of standardized testing is limited and does not tell the whole story of intelligence.
One major difference is that teaching in Finland is a very very very high status well-paid and difficult-to-get-into profession. Competition to even get into teacher training is intense as is the training itself. Here in Denmark they’re starting to debate moving to the Finnish model and the Danish educational system is superb to start of with I hope they do move to the Finnish model. The Finnish education system is just brilliant and produces kids who are superbly educated young adults before they even go into third level
mfi
On the issue of intelligence, I would introduce the US general population’s selections in television, music, politicians, consumer goods, and damn near anything else you can think of.
We are far behind most of the developed world in many, many areas. Our gun control policies are just one example.
Krista – something to make you smile – Dario, one of my grandchildren, was asked this weekend what a lawyer does “somebody who gets money for saying nice things about bad people”.
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings … … …
mfi
i don’t mean to brag, mark, but every Finn i’m related to or ever met are wonderful, brilliant people who ooze compassion and who care about so many of the right things, deeply. i would love to live among such a peaceful, sensible people.
the sucky thing is i’m half African-American, and so while i might be able to get immigration status in Finland, i’m not sure i want to live in the land of snoe. i like warm weather and as i get older, i like it even more. but dad was 100% Finnish, and i wonder what that could do, as an advantage to my immigration there.
Highly recommend Gabor Mate for intelligence and humanity! Interesting fellow and his comment you cite is so totally on it’s epic.
My 113 was actually for KrisAinTX don’t know what happened there probably one of the back room hamsters that keep FDL’s server has been imbibing too much fermented hazelnut juice.
Anyway I’m out of here – it’s my last evening before I go on my travels again and I plan on spending it transferring a lot of music to my lappy and assorted storage devices.
mfi
I’ve no idea – but the Finnish embassy would be able to tell you.
If so might be a good idea to get a Finnish passport given the way things are going …
mfi
Thanks for the bartender’s perspective. Blaming the bartender is another symptom of American society -it’s always someone else’s fault … like “that guy! the one OVER THERE …”
Kinda funny for a culture that argues for personal responsibility (for the 99%, of course).
I have recently heard that the Finns prize a later start to formal schooling thus allowing the natural social development to proceed without (too?) early institutionalizational influences. I like this … but part of my heritage is Scandinavian too so I notice an influence in my attitudes that way anyway. I think Scandinavians are *quite* intelligent all around. :-)
Nice to see you visiting, markfromireland ~ have a good trip to Irak and take care.
My wife worked on a research paper last year that focused on how our public education structure effects males and females differently. Turns out our public education system is structured beyond the development of most male students, who have far shorter attention spans and require more personal attention, where most female students are fairly self-sufficient and have longer attention spans.
I have a friend who was a prosecutor in South Africa. Translated from his native tongue, his job title is “one who asks inconvenient questions”.
Boxturtle (Best description of a prosecutor I’ve seen)
In case anyone missed it, WI is currently going through their multi-year adoption of the CCSS and it is expensive and it requires continual evaluation of teachers and students being reported into a national data base. Colleges are only now beginning to incorporate the requirements for teaching under this CCSS regime, into teacher education training. In a presentation last night, the HS principle will be required to conduct nearly full time teacher and student evals, instantaneously updating data, to the exclusive inability to perform any currently required tasks associated with the job.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/115180205/Common-Core-State-Standards-Primer
The national testing and evaluation data base will certainly condemn any “slow,” to grasp the program child, into a menial job or to be set directly to jail. None of these standards are in any way being applied to voucher schools receiving public tax money.
*reader’s brain just exploded*
So, true, huh, but just mind-blowing that someone has ‘proved’ it. And that explains so much. I’d love to see a diary about that based on her research. It would be a great addition here … would she share?
You know you have a great family, don’t you?!
I can’t help thinking that this stuff is all based on the opinions of people who know NOTHING about learning OR teaching. And have delusions about being ‘big brother’ incarnate. Disastrous state of affairs.
I tend to agree, reader, and there is also the push by large corporations to foist higher percentages of worker training costs onto the taxpayer, the push to allow fewer restrictions on for profit voucher schools (and retention/promotion of Xtian orthodoxy there in many schools on the taxpayer’s dime) and if I could remember my talking points a couple other reasons I would through into the statement. Science is being added next, to the CC standards along with ELA and Math. That’ll likely go a long way toward climate change denial and Jesus riding by on a dinosaur.
Thanks Bill and Melinda. Profits, did I mention private profits?
throw not through, sorry.
As someone with a teacher daughter, I’m going to share this and ask her opinion. Thanks for posting that.
Aargh! Maybe the hamsters are having trouble – my post disappeared when submit brought up the “cannot display the page” screen.
Well anyway, hello all. Nice to see you, Mark from Ireland. And Chicago Dyke – I much appreciate your comments on the lack of public transportation’s effect on drunk driving. So very true.
These days, I’m usually driving and so I turn down the offer even of a small glass of wine at someone else’s home. Not taking the chance.
But the two places/times when I’ve drunk the most were Boston (taking the T home from parties…boy, that last trolley was like the one CD mentioned in Chicago – loud singing at the least) and rural Oklahoma.
Sometimes we designated a driver; more often we simply drove home very carefully; little traffic, even on the interestate. Even so, I didn’t drink a lot; might have passed the less strict standard 30 years ago. Fortunate not to have to.
OTOH, my experiences there with a drunk or two refusing to hand over keys when obviously incapable of driving influenced my decision to drink little in the years since.
Wait, how’d we get on to drunk driving from guns? Of course, drunks are also more likely to commit violence (usually on their partners, or fellow drinkers in public places) and to grab a gun when they’re drunk and mad.
Here’s a story just to annoy you and any other bartenders.
Note that the bar OWNER is being publicly ripped. The bartender has several job offers. Shelby police have increased patrols near that bar and business is off.
Boxturtle (I hope the owner loses his liquor license)
Not mentioned is that in the UK, the Citizens wholeheartedly support the very restrictive laws on gun ownership.
There is no gun lobby.
If a crime is committed with a gun, the sentence for the crime is, I believe, tripled.
Did you see the coverage that reports there has been an uptick in releasing detainees? Wondered if any of your clients would be released.
It *is* cultural, though, isn’t it? Our laws include a fundamental right to own a gun. No other country seems to see guns as a right as we do here in America.
Late to the party, sorry, but thank you for a great post and host. I’m sure this has been said in the thread, but in legal circles, one does not have the option of creating a self-defense situation either. I recently read a hilarious but at the same time not funny case in Kentucky, with some really colorful language, ending with 12 seconds of shooting and a dead person. Anyway, self-defense was not a defense. Turns out the two men had had issues in the past, and someone tape recorded the whole event; the shooter, claiming self-defense, approached the property owner, who was saying something like, “Don’t come any closer, or I’ll shoot you.”
yes, several comments on my immigration lawyers listserv. It’s mostly happening along the border. At the moment I don’t have any clients in those detention centers.
Butif sequestration happens, I’d say all bets are off.
Some imm lawyer commenters suspect this is mostly P.r. to get people to pressure the Repubs to avoid sequester. Which could mean it will go on a while, then stop.
Who knows, at this point?
I’ve also seen, just today, that there’s an increse in turning folks who’ve been removed and return over to US Marshals for criminal prosecution, illegal re-entry. Presumably they are kept elsewhere than with the “ordinary” detainees without criminal charges; not sure about that yet.
Speaking of law…Supreme Court today issued a decision on FISA denying standing to sue over surveillance because the plaintiffs cannot prove that they have been harmed by surveillance.
Decision 5-4–what a surprise. Dissenting opinons protest the requirement that plaintiffs “prove” rather than show harm “rasonably likely”. (have only skimmed briefly, don’t hold me to precise details of decision)
Coming tomorrow, the very important
oral argument.
That’s the one challenging Sec. 5 of the Voting Rights Act, where the plaintiffs are arguing they are no longer racists, don’t try to keep blacks from voting anymore, so we don’t need no stinkin’ Voting Rights Act Sec. 5 anymore.
Sec. 5 of course, is where the Justice Dept gets to review lots of states and counties’ actions that do, have done, or may adversely affect voting rights.
If you all pray, whether to a Judeo-Christian god, the Goddess, or the orixas, etc., please do request the court uphold Sec 5. I hate to think what would happen to our country if it’s overturned.
All right, I’m back to work for awhile. Take care, everyone.
Sheesh. Sorry to be such a bad host folks. Work was very demanding today. Good thing, job security and all.
Thank you all for another great thread and a lot of wonderful insight. I look forward to next week’s conversation :) The NRA makes for colorful opinions.
Ultimate hypocrisy, you can’t prove you’ve been harmed because you can’t confirm if you have been illegally wire-tapped or intercepted by the DHS/FBI spies.
Jesus, fucking Christ on a Crutch, as Richard would say. So freaking absurd it is beyond absurdity.
Hi tejana
Thanks again Kris.
OT of all OTs from PUYC
The little black cat just got a name, Johnny (Joanie) Jihad. Saw it in the eyes as it found the food I set out. Hilarious.
Peace and Resolve
Does that mean you are keeping him/her :)
Johnny or Joanie when you can get close enough to determine the sex? I echo OmAli, are you planning to adopt? Whatever will Mcat have to say about THAT??
Finishing the simmer on the beef vegetable with barley soup. Just stirred in the 1/2 bag of mixed vegetables I add to the recipe, since vegetable soup should have LOTS of vegetables. I probably can have a big bowl for dinner in about 20 minutes, I think.
Then out into the snow to look for a birthday gift for grandson turning 10. I was going to take him shopping, but the weekend plans are getting toooo hectic, I think. Birthday party Sunday with a “video game truck.” Grandma is gonna stay out of the way of THAT, with a dozen little boys!
I believe Jahit is the popular name that means One who does Jihad. Johnny or Joanie Jihad will do well, though. Sounds like you have been selected by a new feline overlord. Congratulations.
Lolol! We live to serve :)
Yum. Really yum.
So you are ‘Grandma’ to the children of children? I’m Nana. Grandma is tradition in my family, but I am happy to go with the DILs’ wishes.
What else can you do when you cohabit with a cat? Gracie is now habitually asking to be let outside between 2 and 4 a.m. Whattareyagonnado?
Wonder if that is just so she can remind you that she is still pulling the strings, and rousting you from bed with the interloper??
You are sleeping with the enemy!
Hunh. Hadn’t thought of that. You just may be right.
Be really careful out there, ok? If it’s not until this weekend can’t you wait until tomorrow when it’s light?
Listen, thinking female but not sure. One or two more deliberate and witnessed (by me) visits to the food, and then I’ll attempt the live trap. The food discovery was in broad daylight so I will hopefully not trap a skunk or something more nocturnal of habit. I will only set the trap during daylight, when I am home. I have already informed my vet of my plans with this critter. M is aware something is afoot. Several extra trips to the window, happening.
LOL @146 and you are likely correct.
That is great :). Hopefully M won’t have too hard a time. ysd can speak to that…
Got to say goodnight, pupses dears :).
Sleep well, everyone, and thanks again Kris.
Ohmmmm
I am Grandma Molly to all of my grandkids. My son-in-law’s parents are Nana and Papa to his daughters. My DIL is Jewish and her dad is Zadie (which I think is Yiddish for “Grandfather”) to her kids. I’m not sure what they call his wife, Dana’s stepmother.
Our nation’s original sin? And what, pray tell, is that?
Thanks…I always am happy to hear from SD, and Im pretty sure he
would love to be quoted….Thank you. RIP. What a guy.
“Bomb disposal officer.” Well, on top of one of your very recent posts bragging about how much better off you are in comparison to your cadet school classmates, that explains a lot.
A lucky mercenary, you are. Nothing particularly wrong with that, and I can’t say that if I had ever been in your shoes I would not have done the same. I can’t even say I wouldn’t have the same self-important classist and self-righteous attitudes you do.
Still, you choose to live in the Middle East when you could live in Europe instead. To me, that’s just crazy.
And you think I’m a loser. I wouldn’t trade places with you. Better slightly above poverty near Cleveland than hundreds of thousands of dollars in assets(at least) and living or working in Iraq(which is the correct English spelling of the country, BTW).
IMHO.
Damn. I’m starting to feel sorry for you, mfi. Please say something to piss me off so I can stop that.
Frankly, I think you’ve wandered in here and made several unwarranted assumptions about MFI. What is your agenda with this comment, or are you just trying to be unpleasant and disruptive?
America’s Original Sin
Hear me now.
Mark is a straight conservative Catholic European, with whom I have more than one set of differences.
But in his total body of life work, I cannot but admire the man, since I have bothered to come to know him, who puts his life and values on the line every day he works in Irak. And elsehow.
Indeed I not only admire him, but I harbor a great affection for him, and others he works with, as he/they is/are there ministering to needs that are greater than my comprehension, under conditions that I cannot comprehend.
So judge away, dilletante.
Interesting post and thread. And not one person has hit upon the reality of guns in America. Amazing.
There are more guns than people here. The government couldn’t ban them by law and enforce said ban in fact if it really, REALLY tried. It no longer matters what shoulda woulda coulda been done almost a century ago, when a true gun ban might, and I emphasize MIGHT, have worked.
Comparisons to other countries’ gun control laws serve no useful purpose, as I see it. There’s something else in American culture that celebrates gun violence that must be addressed.
Look at Canada. If memory serves, there are more guns per capita in Canada than there are in the United States, yet Canada has far fewer gun deaths per capita than America does.
Why is that? Well, for some reason, Canadians are far less likely to settle disputes with violence than Americans are. Why is that?
Better social compact? More awareness of the Golden Rule? Less celebration of violence in the culture? Are Canadians THAT different from Americans? They seem pretty similar to me. Are these even the right questions?
I don’t know, but I’d like to know. What I do know is that a gun ban would not work here. It’s way too late for that.
I recommend this post for thought-provocation.
Dilletante, am I? You don’t know anything about me, or where I’ve been, or whom I’ve met, or whose lives I have impacted or vice-versa.
MFI has stated clearly and forthrightly that he is my class enemy, and the other way ’round on numerous occasions. He’s come right out and said he despises me and considers himself superior to me. It is his right to do so, freedom of speech and all that.
But, somehow, I don’t think he would fit in in an Irish pub more than I. In fact, I think I, a native Texan, would fit in such a place more than he these days.
As for you, Kelly Canfield, have you ever been in the Middle East? Ever been shot at there? Ever been the instrument of death for courageous native Middle Easterners who assaulted the the presence of the American Empire with woefully inadequate weapons?
I call them courageous for, if their guns had been aimed a little lower, I wouldn’t be typing this now. But .50 cals vs. 5 inch radar-directed guns have little chance of victory.
I have seen that. Heard it. Smelt it. I’ve seen the blood and entrails in the water afterwards.
And you call ME “dilletante?” Perhaps you don’t have the right to criticize mfi. I do. I’ve been there. And the place sucks, and Americans just don’t belong there.
mfi states he is licensed to carry a gun in England? Really?
He’d enjoy no company I know there, ever. Completely unacceptable, irrespective of his claimed wealth (which by English standards his very statement of his is vulgar).
His have a commission in Ireland may entitle him to carry a gun, I have no knowledge of their customs. A commission in the British Army entitles no such privilege, and in that matter I’m immersed in the culture.
mfi states he is licensed to carry a gun in England? Really?
He’d enjoy no company I know there, ever. Completely unacceptable, irrespective of his claimed wealth (which by English standards his very statement of his is vulgar).
His having a commission in Ireland may entitle him to carry a gun, I have no knowledge of their customs. A commission in the British Army entitles no such privilege, and in that matter I’m immersed in the culture.
Well, he does say he’s Irish. Northern Irish, maybe? But wait, Canfield says he’s Catholic. You’re English, Synoia, so I’ll take your word for it on who can lawfully carry a gun in the UK.
“A commission in the British Army entitles no such privilege.”
Interesting. Does that apply to the SAS as well? Or are they one and the same? What are Ireland’s gun laws like? I don’t know. Reckon I can find out, though. Food for thought. Thanks for this, but I’ve got to go to bed now.
Maybe you missed the first two posts in this series? Some of what you cite that was missed was covered there.
And why is mfi suddenly under attack? He’s been at FDL a long time, many of us know some of his background, he is a trusted commenter and I’m at a loss to understand this unwarranted hostility, hours after he’s left the thread.
Thanks to Kelly for #158. What’s going on here?
I wish I was a mod.
Why? Because your command of Gaelic is perfect? I don’t think so – and mfi’s is.
No. But I’ve been shot at HERE. In Phoenix, actually, in the ’80s. Not too proud to say that I pissed my pants one of the times.
Exactly when? I see you claim to be 57 years old. So exactly what blood and entrails are you talking about?
10 years ago, when you were 47, was the AfPak/Irak war.
20 years ago, when you where 37 is the Gulf war.
Tell. Seriously.
Oy, this thread is going to be the poster child of why America needs to not only talk about gun control, but TALK about the anger we all feel at being betrayed and robbed of our futures.
What we’ve been sorely missing around here is a good, witty Fuck Thread.
pollyana
Thank you, Kris. I’m coming back in the morning to read the links. And the comments with brighter eyes.
Happiness is a warm gun
Well, addressing that would be nice but I doubt it’s going to happen while so many people are drawn in by the seductive allure of trying to prove correlation implies causation. Which gets conveniently ignored, of course, when people want to collectively restrict millions of firearms owners for the acts of a dozen or so.
Actually not true. Canada isn’t even close to the US for guns per capita, they’re at about 20 for every 100 people, we’re at almost 90 for every 100 people. Although the US’ ratio has probably gone up with all the panic buying.
They’re the questions that almost no one is asking. Why? Who knows. I will say that most people who talk about this issue in terms of what to ban and what to restrict seem to be very circumspect about referring to “gun violence”. It’s never “crime” or “violence”. So yes, if that’s the narrow focus, removing guns cuts down on gun violence. Just not any other kind of violence. It’s like giving Vitamin C drops to a person with pneumonia; looks like you’re doing something about the problem, doesn’t cause any visible additional problems, but doesn’t actually fix the bigger problem.
Now I did notice something interesting in the original post. Self-defense not accepted as a reason for firearms ownership in many countries and yes there is a trend. The only exceptions made to that rule are mainly for the wealthy and those they value most, government officials and agents of the State. If I were a cynical man, I might see that as two sets of rules depending on class.
Oh and the section on the UK, while including Hungerford and Dunblane, curiously misses Cumbria. 12 dead and 11 wounded. No semi-auto pistols, no “assault weapons”, just a 12-gauge double-barrel shotgun and a .22 LR bolt-action rifle. Both fully licensed. I guess he didn’t get the memo about how only certain guns are good for killing large numbers of people.
It’d be great if people actually read the entire series before commenting and making themselves look ignorant.
This series of posts is in its third week, and will go at least 3 more weeks.
Thanks for second guessing my intellect, my abilities as an author, my logical reasoning skills, and my intentions though. Really appreciate it.
While I continue to blog about something meaningful in this little corner of the internet, why don’t you sensationalist morons keep prancing about trying to tear people down. Seems like good work, truly. Your parents must be proud :)
To OhioBarbarian – I respect your comments and opinions in most cases, but assaulting MFI here? Really? Thanks for shitting on my thread and insulting a fundamentally decent man.
To Kelly – thank you for being rational and respectful. I always appreciate your comments, even when they’re pointed at me and I deserve a thrashing :)
To MertvayaRuka – I didn’t ‘miss Cumbria’. I chose to leave certain shootings out because of word count. Cumbria did not shape legislation in the UK the way Hungerford and Dunblane did, so I chose to highlight those mass shootings, since the topic of the post is LEGISLATION and GUN CONTROL, not MASSACRES. I also left out the two incidents in Australia since Port Arthur. I also left out, in my comments, the Sikh Temple shooting in Wisconsin that happened last year. I also left out my hair color or what kind of jeans I’m wearing. Do you know why? Because the information wasn’t necessary to convey the ideas of the post.
To everyone else who had snooty comments late in the day – Read the entire series. Kthx.
Kris, Thanks. I came back in too late and not interested enough to read the jabs. I appreciate your taking the time to give some explanation and create a reasonable tone. The other sort of “you mother wears army boots” is really not worth one’s time.
You’ve done thoughtful work on an important topic. Thanks (Whether folks agree does not lessen the importance of the topic and your work.)
1988. My destroyer was in something called Operation Preying Mantis. We escorted oil tankers in the Persian Gulf because they were being “attacked,” really just harassed, by Iranians on speedboats with .50 cal machine guns mounted on them.
They DID shoot at us. There’s not much left of a speedboat, or its occupants, after it’s been hit by a 5 inch shell.
I’m sure mfi can verify that operation. Or you can google it.
Well, at least I didn’t call him a white trash redneck like he did me awhile back. I disagree with your assessment of him, but that’s just my personal opinion.
I in no way intended to “shit” upon your thread. I will apologize to you, but not to either of the other hims.
Thank you OB. I appreciate that.