A number of diaries at Firedog Lake today, frame the coming phase of the legislative process in terms of the need for 60 votes to get cloture and pass the PO. For example here’s a quote from one of today’s diaries by David Dayen:
“Left out of this story is the fact that any amendment to the bill on the Senate floor would in all likelihood need a cloture vote – in other words, 60 votes – in order to pass. Therefore the placement of the public option inside or outside of the merged bill is crucial, as there are probably not 60 votes to either insert it or remove it from the legislation. So allowing an amendment as a “compromise” is not really a compromise at all.”
Here’s another from a diary by nyceve:
“Progressives had been told by Reid that he couldn’t do anything without 60 votes. Now that he has his 60th, he is afraid to use it. It now appears that not only is it that Reid has failed in his arm-twisting to get the party to vote together on cloture, it’s that he’s afraid to even politely ask them to behave like a party and stick together.”
And yet another from montanamaven:
“He needs a victory”, sighed Dr. Paul Hochfeld at the very end of our 40 minute interview with him on our local talk radio show. After a feisty and informative discussion with us about health care reform, in the end, Paul, like us, kind of sighed. When Paul talked to the Doctors for Obama group that had flown in to support President Obama’s health care reform (whatever that was), they told him that “the president needs a victory”. Even though Paul is a single payer advocate and knows like many of us do that a national system is the only thing that will work, in the end does it boils down to giving the President something to sign? He was politely called delusional by his colleagues. Did he not see that the Congress was incapable of passing something meaningfully comprehensive? Did he not see that there were not 60 votes in the Senate?”
These diaries all assume that in the next phases of the legislative process, the existence of the filibuster in Senate procedure will determine what can be done to amend Harry Reid’s mark, “merging” the Senate HELP and Finance Committee bills. However, it only takes 50 votes + the VP to get rid of the filibuster through using the procedure known as “the nuclear option.”
Harry Reid can decide whether a PO will be in the bill or not. But if it’s not, then Schumer, Rockefeller, or any other individual Democrat can do the following:
1) Object to the proposed Unanimous Consent (UC) agreement that Amendments to the bill would require 60 votes to pass.
2) When the bill moves to the floor without such an agreement an Amendment putting in a PO will be filibustered, but, also, one of the Senators supporting it can make a point of order calling for a vote on the amendment being considered by the Senate.
3) The presiding officer of the Senate, most often the Vice President of the United States, can then make a parliamentary ruling upholding the point of order and citing the Constitution of the United States rather than previous Senate rules (which uphold the right of unlimited debate) as the precedent supporting the ruling.
4) A supporter of the filibuster can then “appeal from the chair” by asking whether the Chair’s decision will stand as the judgment of the Senate.
5) If one of them does, then an opponent of the filibuster can move to table the appeal.
6) Since motions to table are not debatable, the Senate immediately votes on the tabling and decides by simple majority vote.
7) If a majority decides to table the ruling of the Chair, that the filibuster is unconstitutional, and that a majority vote is enough to bring a bill to vote and to pass it, then the point of order, along with majority rule, is upheld.
8) By its action in upholding the Chair, the Senate will have established a new precedent, namely that filibusters are unconstitutional, and that all legislation thenceforth, may be passed by majority vote, following a point of order calling for a vote.
None of this requires Harry Reid’s cooperation or is up to him. The 52 supporters of the PO in the Senate would get a vote allowing them to overcome the filibuster, and pass the PO amendment attaching it to his bill. It does, however, require the cooperation of Joe Biden who would be the presiding officer and therefore probably the President as well.
This possibility is often dismissed by progressive bloggers, with the cursory remark that the “nuclear option” won’t be used by the Democrats, and the bloggers then go on to talk about scenarios involving 60 votes. But, I think this kind of approach is a mistake. We should not be writing only about what is likely to happen or what may happen, or whether progressives in Congress will oppose a UC agreement or not. We should also be writing about what it is possible for the Democrats and Harry Reid to do, and what they ought to be doing to pass health insurance reform. I think this last involves the issue of the Democrats’ decision to live with the filibuster both in the health care reform area, and also other legislative areas, and therefore to continue to live with the burden of always having to corral 60 votes before they can legislate something.
This decision is, in effect, a decision to overturn the results of the last election. It is a decision to empower the Republicans and the blue dogs to block reform. It is a decision to fail at reform and to break the promises the Democratic Party made to the American people.
Harry Reid’s and the Democrats’ failure to get rid of the filibuster, and to legislate effective reform is the big story about these last months of the health care reform effort, and perhaps even of President Obama’s first term. And it is a story that most of us progressive bloggers are ignoring, at least in its filibuster aspect, as previously we ignored the President’s taking single-payer off the table, and talked up the public option instead.
What we should be doing now is generating a deafening blog chorus about the Democrats having the power to remove the 60 vote requirement in favor of the constitutional 51 vote one, by getting rid of the filibuster once and for all. But we are not doing that. Instead we are accepting the legitimacy of the filibuster and discussing the arcana of navigating the PO through what may prove to be multiple 60-vote barriers, before even a very weakened PO can finally emerge. What kind of progressivism is this?
Let’s spotlight the fact that the Democrats can get rid of it, and pass not only health insurance reform, but much else besides and get it spread throughout the left blogosphere. And let’s break through the MSM conspiracy of silence on this subject and get them to begin talking about it too. We need to get this idea out. It’s very important to have people look squarely at the fact that we can have much better health care reform, if not single-payer, enhanced Medicare for All, immediately, if Democrats are willing to give up the filibuster. So which is more important to them, and to Harry Reid, and Barack Obama, the filibuster, or a health insurance reform with a strong PO?
(Also posted at the Alllifeisproblemsolving where there may be more comments)



10 Comments







i’m sorry i can’t support you on this one letsgetitdone. at least not based on my current understanding.
firstly, because i don’t think the constitution is whatever the vice president says it is. what you are advocating is a complete upheaval in our current constitutional order (not that it doesn’t need changing imo) and the ramifications go far beyond this one issue which we both care about. there is a way i consider legitimate for the senate to change it’s rules: by 2/3 vote (i think that’s the right number) during the 111th congress, or by simple majority vote at the start of the 112th congress. our D congress could have done that at the start of the 111th, but they did not. which brings me to my second point:
i disagree with this statement. the dems we elected could have changed the senate rules at the beginning of the 111th congress. they did not. they did not run on the issue, they did not make campaign pledges on the issue.
that doesn’t mean i cut them any slack for their corruption. but imo the problem is one of corruption and the not overturning the results of the last election. unfortunately we elected corrupt representatives.
finally, although i think the current form of the filibuster needs to go, i do not support getting rid of the filibuster entirely. i’d like to see it fixed — so that it allows for the process (and vote) to be delayed (not blocked) by a determined minority and where the delay is designed to bring public attention to the issue and to give the public time to weigh in before final action is taken in the senate. this could be done in a number of ways and i’d like to see knowledgeable, thoughtful people give some thought to how this might best be done. an example of the kind of alternative i’m talking about is this suggestion by mark matson at OL:
just my 2 cents.
Hi selise, Thank you for the best reply you’ve given me yet on this point. But it still doesn’t do it for me. Let me give you my reasons which I suspect you may have already anticipated. You began with:
The constitution isn’t what the VP say it is. But it is a written constitution, and the written constitution plainly says that majority vote, or at least 50 + 1, in the current situation, is all one needs to pass legislation and make decisions about rules in Congress. The right to filibuster and the rules on cloture are Senate rules. They are not a part of any “constitutional order.” You can claim that they are, but this is just rhetoric, not legal reality.
The legal reality is that the filibuster is a practice of the Senate, which the Senate has the legal and completely constitutional right to abandon at will. The mechanism for abandoning the practice is the so-called “nuclear option,” a maneuver which is perfectly constitutional, and which the Senate had every right to enact without violating the constitution. In fact, I think that if it were to use the nuclear option, it would be restoring the constitutional arrangement of acting by majority vote that was written into the constitution by the framers, and never amended according to the procedures for amendment written into the constitution.
The filibuster is not only practice that goes against what the framers wrote into the constitution, but it is also one that maximizes the power of individual Senators and the Senate as a whole to block legislation or force compromises favored by a minority. It also minimizes the power of the individual Senators, and the Senate as a whole, to act along with the House to enact legislation that is likely to solve problems.
The compromise legislation that emerges as the result of the filibuster is invariably legislation that is a blunt instrument for solving the problems it is aimed at, and which also create side effects, because the many interests that are compromised have all sorts of unanticipated and often very harmful consequences that work against the supposed purpose of the legislation.
This helps create anger and alienation from the Congress, makes people think that it is always either ineffective, and even harmful in its activities, and so, in this way, one of the effects of the filibuster is to undermine the very legitimacy of our constitutional democracy.
Another way in which it undermines legitimacy and our constitution is that it makes the Senate more powerful than the House, in slowing down or killing legislation. The framers did view the Senate as an anti-democratic check on the House. But they did not write anything formal into the constitution that makes the Senate inherently more powerful. The filibuster has created that effect, and it is an unfair and unjust effect one when viewed from the House’s standpoint, and also the viewpoint of the American people who have never expressed or accepted the view that the Senate ought to be more powerful than the House. Nor have they institutionalized such an effect in the Constitution.
You go on to say:
I must ask you why you consider these ways of changing the rules as “legitimate” and the “nuclear option” as illegitimate?
There is no basis in the written constitution for asserting this. The nuclear option is within the authority of the Senate to implement and so are change by 2/3 vote and change by majority vote at the start of a session. All are equally justified by the constitution’s written stipulation that the Senate acts by majority vote. Your view of what is legitimate and what is not seems like just a personal opinion of yours, perhaps shared by others, but having no basis at all in our written constitution. Next you say:
I agree that a very serious problem is corruption in Congress. I have no doubt that Max Baucus, Blanche Lincoln, Mary Landrieu, other Democrats and a whole host of Republicans are bought and paid for. With 45,000 dying annually due to lack of insurance, I would say, If I believed in hell, that they are certainly going there.
But my simple point in saying that the decision to maintain the filibuster is a decision to overturn the results of the last election, is that those who ran made certain promises to their constituents. They also said or very strongly implied, that they would do all they could do to keep these promises. But the truth is that they, including many non-corrupt, progressive Democrats are not doing all they can, because they are maintaining the filibuster rather than attempting to overturn it, so they can pass health care reform as well as much additional legislation they have promised to the American people. In short, they are not doing everything they can do and they, including the progressives who are not trying to get rid of the filibuster, are breaking their promises to the American people by delivering power into the hands of those who lost the election.
There is no getting around it. That is what the filibuster does. It gives power to the minority (the losers) to thwart the will of the majority (the winners) in the last election. It is the primary reason why we never get anything done in Washington. It is at the center of the gordian knot that prevents us from acting collectively to break the interests and solve our problems. To cut that knot we will, sooner or later, need to get rid of the filibuster, or effectively neuter it.
Next you say:
I agree with the idea that it would be good to have a Senate rule which allows minorities to make their case and attract public attention to their point of view, and I do favor rules that would provide for this. I noted your quote of Mark Matson’s vote to sustain a filibuster. But I find his proposal too sketchy to visualize the dynamics it would create in the Senate. I don’t find it straightforward because it would seem to have the potential to create chains of filibuster votes to sustain filibusters for an hour. Instead of that sort of arrangement, I’d be for giving opponents of bills brought to the floor by the majority leader of the Senate some fixed time period, say three days to state their objections on the floor. The three day period could be dispensed with through unanimous consent agreements.
This last question of good rules for safeguarding a reasonable amount of time for debate on critical issues is a important one, but I don’t think it’s a critical issue right now. The existence of the filibuster and its constant tugging of legislative outcomes toward the status quo or safeguarding entrenched interests is. We just can’t afford that anymore. We can’t afford it with respect to health care reform, or energy, environmental, or climate issue, or job creation legislation, educational reform, or financial reform, or any one of a number of other areas.
At the end of my piece above: I said:
It seems to me that your reply isn’t that you prefer the filibuster as it is, but that you would modify the filibuster to severely constrain it and prevent undue delays due to debate, but would still guarantee Senators the right to debate. I can go for that, but I also think that the priority now, is to use the nuclear option to clear the legislative road. If this can be done at the same time that the filibuster, as it exists now, could be ended, I’d be in favor of that.
But, in the absence of a proposal outlining how that would be done right now, I think the choice is between decent, but not great, health care reform legislation (there are now 52 Senate votes for a version of the PO) and the filibuster. In the context of the 45,000 deaths and million bankruptcies annually, due to the present system, I choose getting rid of the filibuster and enacting the reform. Putting in a new rule that would restore the privilege of debate in a modified way is important, but I think it can wait until the beginning of the next session, and certainly shouldn’t be prioritized ahead of getting rid of the filibuster in this one.
Somethign else to note, the history of the nuclear option is instructive. Last time it was tried (it’s never been fully carried out, as we still have the filibuster in the Senate), it resulted in a deal lowering the votes needed for cloture from 67 to our current 60.
So there might be benefit without actually carrying the nuclear option out the whole way.
Also, the last time it was tried under Bill Frist, those favoring maintaining the filibuster backed off their blocking of judicial appointments, in order to safeguard it. This was particularly short-sighted, since if Frist had gotten rid of it, we might be living with a $1.2 – 1,6 trillion recovery package, a health care reform bill that was long since passed and contained at least a vigorous PO, and additional progressive legislation in the energy, climate, environmental, green jobs, regulatory, and education areas.
They know there is no accountability, so they don’t care what any of us think. What are we going to do vote for the Republicans.
Like I say we keep putting both these parties, and those people in office, and then complain about what they do.
Instead of worrying about sixty votes, we need to be inventing a politician removal tool. Like something that hooks in their butts, and can be attached to a European bound jumbo jet.
-:) -:) -:) Thanks for the image!
I say, get rid of the filibuster and pass as much progressive legislation as you can in the next few years. See how the American people like it. If they don’t, they’ll put the Republicans back in power, they can pass their regressive, repressive legislation and be out of power for a generation. That’s how a democracy is supposed to work, right?
Exactly. That’s what I say too. Democrats won the last election. The people think we’ve won. We need to act like we’ve won, do what we believe will make things better, and then take the responsibility for that.
I think now’s the time of Progressives to threaten to scuttle the bill:
No public option = No cloture
Get Harry Reid to put it in the bill now, otherwise, no legislation.
Of course, what I’ve outlined here is a procedure that does much more than threaten to maintain a Republican filibuster. If Biden goes along, there’ll be no need for cloture again, ever. Much better than threats that people will view as empty anyway.