A few months ago, Kip Sullivan wrote a terrific piece in which he called out the leaders of the public option community for not informing the public that the public option provisions appearing in the HR 3200 and Senate HELP bills were vastly different from Jacob Hacker’s public option proposal that PO leadership had been advocating for. Kip’s view, with which I agree, is that PO partisans should have been vigorous in clarifying the distinctions between the PO they were advocating for initially, and the quite different PO provisions they were now describing as “robust,” and were beginning to support. Kip believes that failure to make these distinctions is disingenuous, and that it has been contributing to the confusion about the public option many people have expressed in polls.
In a more recent follow-up, Kip raises the questions of whether:
” . . . (a) pollsters had allowed themselves to be fooled by the bait-and-switch campaign for the “option” and (b), to the extent that they hadn’t been fooled, what did they find out about how badly the average American had been fooled?”
Kip examined the results of 52 polls taken since mid-June of 2009 to answer these questions. In general he found that pollsters were asking people about their opinion of a Hacker-type PO, “the bait,” rather than the POs in bills actually “on the table” — “the switch.” Twenty-three of the 52 polls he examined had questions about the PO. Kip draws the following conclusions from his analysis:
”Of the 23 polls that posed a question about the “option,” only the ABC/Washington Post poll . . . could be said to be accurate, and even that is a questionable statement. To put this the other way around, at least 22 of the 23 polls I examined failed to convey accurate information about the actual “option” under consideration by Congress. It is impossible, therefore, to reach any conclusions about how the public feels about that “option.” Because 21 of the 22 polls that conveyed some information about the “option” asked questions exclusively about a version of the “option” that resembles the one Jacob Hacker originally proposed, we can only draw conclusions about that version. The one tentative conclusion we can draw is that the public appears to support the original Hacker version of the “option” – the large, Medicare-like public program. We must consider this conclusion tentative because the campaign for the “option” has been so deceptive and vague, and because the polls made no effort to undo the deception or compensate for the vagueness.”
The September Washington Post/ABC poll was different from the others. It asked two related questions about the PO. The first: “Would you support or oppose having the government create a new health insurance plan to compete with private health insurance plans?” provides no information about PO eligibility and in the context of the public debate about the PO could easily be taken as referring to a nation-wide PO plan of the Hacker-type, that any American can choose as their insurance provider. The second question, however, was: “If oppose/unsure: “What if this government-sponsored plan was available only to people who cannot get health insurance from a private insurer? In that case, would you support or oppose it?”” As Kip points out, asking this question confirms that the first question was asking about a PO plan that everyone would be eligible for, while the second one asked about restricted eligibility plans such as the kind found in HR 3200 and Senate HELP.
So, of all the polls, only one can be said to have begun to measure the support or opposition of people to the POs currently being considered in Congress, while all the rest only provide data about whether or not people support “the bait” — the Hacker type of PO. But how much information does the WaPo/ABC poll really provide about support for current bills (“the switch”)?
Shockingly, from my point of view, the second question was only asked of the 45% of respondents who did not support the unrestricted eligibility PO implied in the first question. 47% of this group, or 21% of respondents supported a restricted eligibility PO. And the survey provided no way to know how many of the 55% who support a generalized PO would also have supported a restricted eligibility PO if they had been asked the question. Since it’s quite possible, even probable, that many respondents would have opposed legislation with a restricted eligibility PO, it cannot be inferred from the data that 76% of respondents support a restricted eligibility PO of the kind being considered in Congress. Yet that’s exactly the conclusion drawn by WaPo and ABC: “Support for a public option swells to 76 percent if it were available only to people who can’t get coverage from a private insurer.”
Yesterday, Jon Walker found much the same problem in the latest WaPo/ABC poll. In that poll the first question asked was the same as in the September poll, but the second question asked above was replaced with:
“9. (IF OPPOSE/NO OPINION FOR GOVERNMENT PLAN) What if this government-sponsored plan was run by state governments and was available only to people who did not have a choice of affordable private insurance? In that case would you support or oppose this idea?”
The results were 57% support for the PO in response to the first general question, with 40% opposed and 3% undecided. The second question was again asked only of the 43% who were not in support of the general PO. The results were that 45% of the 43%, or 19% of the total, supported a PO run by State Governments.
As Jon points out, WaPo and ABC added the amount of support for the general PO to the support for the State-run PO, emerging with 76% support for the PO, the same as it found in the September’s survey, and went beyond its data in doing so, since there is no way of knowing whether all of the 57% who supported the general PO would also support the State PO. Jon also correctly points out:
”The other problem with the poll is that question 9 should have been divided into two separate parts. It combines two different ideas (state-based public plans and restricting eligibility) in a single question. It is impossible to know if both changes increase support, only one, or one makes people more supportive while the other makes them generally less supportive.”
However, he neglects to point to the error in the September survey of adding support for the General PO to support for the restricted eligibility PO, and emerging with a PO support level of 76%. So, he also neglects to conclude that the earlier survey was also in error, and that there was no basis for its conclusion that a restricted PO raised support for it from 55% to 76%.
So, this leads us back once again to Kip’s contention that most of the polling has focused on the “bait” of the general PO and not on the “switch” of the current bills. The WaPo/ABC surveys are the only ones to focus on the current bills at all, and their focus is limited to only that sub-set of their samples which expressed opposition or being undecided about the general PO.
Polling organizations such as WaPo/ABC have accepted a misleading frame for the public option story by focusing mainly on asking the public what its opinion is of an idea very similar to the original PO. It has not asked everyone in any of its samples about restricted eligibility PO plans, or about State-run plans. It has not asked anyone about single-payer, Medicare for All since June, playing into the Administration’s view that it should be taken off the table even though millions of people favor it, even though there are two current single-payer bills in Congress, and even though it would have required only an extra question in any of these surveys to ask about. What a miserable failure in serving the public this record of polling is. What accounts for it? Are the people at these polling organizations so politically biased that they deliberately slanted their supposedly scientific activities to create a frame that would be favorable to Administration proclivities? Or are they simply so immersed in the Washington insider world that they are no longer competent to create reasonably objective polling efforts that represent shades of opinion across the political spectrum on health insurance reform. I’m sure the answer is more like a combination of both bias and incompetence. But based on WaPo’s errors in adding general PO to support to restricted eligibility PO support in its surveys, I’m starting to incline a bit toward the incompetence explanation.
The errors committed by polling organizations in both framing their polls, and also in manipulating their data to draw conclusions from them, have very important implications. Just today, Jon Walker blogged about blue dog Senator Ben Nelson’s immediate attempt to use the WaPo error to support his own views, and quotes Nelson, via TPM, claiming that the WaPo poll results showed that the PO with a State opt-out/opt-in choice rose to 76% of the sample. This statement of Nelson’s is an exaggeration of WaPo/ABC’s own error since their poll said nothing about opt-out/op-in, and only talked about State-run POs. But had WaPo/ABC not made its error, then Nelson’s opportunity to exaggerate even more would not have been there. It’s the jungle telegraph effect. Once you make an error, the political jungle just magnifies it and before you know it, all sorts of stories are circulating as facts, especially when politicians have a political motive to believe them.
(Also posted at the Alllifeisproblemsolving blog where there may be more comments)



40 Comments







Thanks, lets; recc’d. Sullivan’s latest article is another must-read. The ongoing practice of citing polling data based on aspirational PO proposals as evidence of support for current legislative proposals remains inexcusable and perilous to future efforts toward real reform.
Glad you liked it Ralph. The practice is inexcusable, but even worse from my point is the incompetence in interpreting their own data. It’s just unbelievable.
Lets, love your use of bait and switch, especially with something like one size fits all “public option” illusions. The exploitation and spin of ingenuous politicians of the polls, and the incompetence in collecting data and interpreting it with the polls. Glad you have the scope of thinking to embrace this stuff and get it. Great to hear you call them on it.
Sorry I dropped out of frame for a bit. Thanks for your good fighting.
I saw Frontline about that woman Born who was so right about regulation and got piled on by Greenspan, Rubin and Summers, in the 90s to shut her up when she was having nightmares literally about the upcoming meltdown and her department was in charge of derivatives. The financial cronyism was just so thick and pummelled her down even when she feistily went to Congress to assert regulations.
And still, the banks are still playing risk games and the Congress is still cowed by the lobbies, and look who is around still, Summers and those involved who iced out Born.
I feel like SP Medicare for All is the healthy and affordable and renewing and sustaining plan which you know, but in the class war, someone said to Bill Moyers, the class war is over. We lost. I feel like the bribed Congress are like addicts who are not willing to end denial and acknowledge they have hit bottom, which means they haven’t, which means they are going to drag the country down ever further.
Gotta stay focused on the prize and keep our voices going, though.
Hi lib, Thanks. As it happens my Ph.D. is in Political Science, and one of my strong areas was “methodology,” which included doing some survey research and much more analysis of survey literature. I’ve also done some market research and statistical analysis in that field. So I can read and evaluate polling instruments and know their weaknesses very well.
Thanks for calling attention to Brooksley Born and cronyism in the clique running the economy. It was a very bad sign when Barack appointed this clique, so close to Robert Rubin to run things. It, as much as the appointment of Rahm, marked the return to Clintonism. From time-to-time, I’ve called attention to Obama’s being closed to advice from many great economists. Here’s an early blog that talks about this in connection with the stimulus. It’s also interesting because it talks about the cost of the filibuster, as well.
As it happens, I’m not a big Paul Volcker fan. I applaud his going public on the need for regulation, and, more generally, what he’s been doing lately. But I think his actions and advice during the Carter Administration were very damaging to the middle class and the Administration then, and also set the table for Reagan in 1980 and for the Reagan recovery in 1983 that led to the go-go economy, the mal-distribution of wealth we see today, and the return of the laissez-faire religion.
We need to recognize how the game is being played. The propaganda washing over us sedeuctively. Can’t believe the number of health care commercials now cooing their good will to the consumer. Right. Almost as many as Bloomberg commercials on NY tv. Big money involved. Sublminal and seductive.
Someone on Bill Moyers said the class warfare is over. We lost. Sigh.
Lib, It’s been a one-sided war. Every time the Democrats made noises as if they would start fighting it on behalf of the “have-nots,” btw, the traditional mission of the Democratic Party, some Republican would shout: That’s class warfare” and the Democrat would immediately run the other way. Me, I’d answer by putting a chart showing the increasing inequality in America for the past 40 years, and remind folks that they’ve been losing that war and that now is the time to start fighting it again and winning.
Today, there are reports that the Administration is going to cut salaries of high-level executives at the firms receiving the most bail-out money by an average of 90%, which will cut their total compensation by an average of 50%. That’s a start. But back when the compensation boom started CEO compensation averaged about a 40 – 60 to one ratio to ordinary workers in a firm. Today that ratio is somewhere around 440 – 1. If compensation is cut in half, that will still be around a 400 percent gain over where they were back in the 70s. Seems to me we also need to bring those marginal tax rates back up to 90%.
Thanks, lets. Yeah, the compensation cutting is a start … maybe. The same day it was announced about just how massive the bonuses for Goldman et al. would be this year, of all years, talk about rock salt in the critical wounds, there is an announcement that Colorado has lowered the minimum wage. God has a cruel and sadistic sense of humor sometimes.
I am so cynical, that if they are cutting those bonuses it is kabuki or a red herring to distract from even more vile ripping off, that there is a back room deal in the crony magic show that there is something beyond the public’s knowledge to sweeten the deal, to coax the economic rapists.
The addiction and status quo to greed. You don’t coax addicts to stop hurting you. You play interventive hardball.
I think of that saying about when you wrestle with pigs, you get dirty and they have fun. After all, the corporate sociopaths have LYING as a tool in their arsenal whereas people with integrity don’t.
Good thing I am not bitter, eh? :)
You and Lets are right. The compensation isn’t the biggie. It’s that these banks/institutions have no money. What we should be doing is regulating them. They should not be allowed to be crazy leaveraged. They should have money in order to gamble. Not gamble with Other People’s Money aka taxpayers money. If they were forced to put up a lot of capital what would happen? We’d find out how broke they are. We would have lots of shareholder lawsuits. Better to loan them money. Our money.
So we loaned money to private firms $13 trillion,says Nomi Prins in her new book “It Takes a Pillage”. “With that money the government could have bought every residential mortgage in the country–there were about $11.9 trillion at the end of December, 2008–and still have had a trillion left over to buy homes for every single American who couldn’t afford them and pay their health care to boot”.
mm, we should have taken them into receivership, cleaned up the toxic assets, and spun them off again with a whole new set of regulations, once we’d lent a bunch of money to small business to stoke the economy and help job creation. If we’d done that we’d now have declining unemployment and also a healthy and regulated financial sector. Obama blew it! But he can still recover, if he forces the big banks to recognize the toxic assets on their books. That will render them worthless and allow the Government to take them into receivership and implement the above program.
As long as we’re talking dishonesty, the banks are currently benefiting from accounting rules that allow them to ignore their worthless mortgages. Recognize these and most of them are not worth anything.
Thank you for this very clear explanation of the misuse of the second ABC/WashPO poll question. It’s a point I thought about making in my article on the polls but decided not to to cut down on the length of my article.
I see the abject failure of the pollsters to ask the right question as one aspect of a larger problem — the incredible groupthink that has dominated the “option” movement, congressional Democrats, the media, and bloggers. Even Republicans talk about the puny little POs in the Democrats’ bills as if they were the original butt-kicking Hacker version of the PO.
Within a year, we will see the first of many books and articles about the shrivelled health care reform debate of 2009. I hope some of those books and articles will attempt to offer a good explanation of how the groupthink about the “option” materialized.
A good explanation of such a complex phenomenon will examine several factors. High on my list of factors that should be examined is the role of the founders of the Herndon Alliance, a coalition of left-of-center groups founded in 2005 for the explicit purpose of promoting an alternative to single-payer and dreaming up code words to sell it. (Bill Clinton pollster Celinda Lake was hired by the Alliance to develop the code words, such as “quality affordable health care” instead of “universal coverage.”)
As far as I can tell, it was the Herndon Alliance that first decided to popularize Jacob Hacker’s original version of the PO. If the Herndon Alliance had not existed, Jacob Hacker would not be anywhere near as well known as he is today. The Alliance didn’t call Hacker’s idea a PO prior to 2009; they called it “guaranteed affordable choice.” It appears to me that the Herndon Alliance was organized primarily by groups who had put a lot of time and money into Bill Clinton’s failed Health Security Act of 1993. This includes Families USA, AFSCME and USAction (the successor organization to Citizen Action). SEIU was not that prominent a defender of Clinton’s awful 1993 bill, but SEIU appears to have played a key role in creating or at least promoting the Herndon Alliance.
The early planning by the Herndon Alliance, its large size, and its large budget allowed it to function like the equivalent of a Special Ops force in a foreign country –they operated way below the media’s radar for a long time, and yet they operated effectively. By the time the Herndon Alliance’s political arm — Health Care for America Now (HCAN included many of the leading individuals and groups in the Allance) — announced its existence in July 2008, much of the groundwork that would create “option” groupthink had been laid. Obama and other presidential candidates had been talked to, union leaders had been evangelized, foundation money had been lined up, and much of that money was already flowing to organizations with very progressive outlooks on every issue except health care.
Kip Sullivan
Kip, greetings again! Your latest piece really laid out, with high rigor, points a few of us have been hammering repeatedly and often thanklessly on this blog. (For example, you may want to have a glance at 63% of Americans Can’t Pick the Public Option Out of a Three-Suspect Lineup.)
Regarding the origins of HCAN, the Herndon Alliance, the generation of all those cardboard-flavored buzzwords, and the weird fetish around the virtues of private-insurance “choice and competition”…
I recently came across this November 2008 piece, in which the indispensable Trudy Lieberman interviews Yale professor Theodore Marmor. I especially liked this exchange:
One sees Marmor’s observations embodied in this talk Jacob Hacker gave on July 21, 2008, to the Tides Foundation.
At around 18:20 in the video, he shows a chart from the Lewin Group estimating a steady migration from employer-based private insurance to a Medicare-like public plan, populated at its creation with about 130 million beneficiaries. He says:
We see here, in a pitch to progressives for the nascent HCAN, both the promise that a public option (or at least, full-frontal Hacker) will morph into Medicare for All and the underlying pollster-garbled notion, highlighted by Marmor, that placating people’s supposed fear of losing their employer health plans requires so roundabout an approach to genuine reform.
Hi Ralph, There the pollsters go, going beyond their data again. My theory about the Clinton plan is that it was far too complex for anyone to understand it. That’s a problem it shares with the current bills that are “on the table.” In contrast, the Conyers/Kucinich bill, HR 676 is only 30 pages in length. You can invent horror stories about complex bills that you can’t invent about simple ones. Combine these stories with the high degree of mistrust ordinary Americans have for their Government and you have a recipe for political failure.
Hi Kip, Thanks for your lengthy and very informative comment. I’d gained some knowledge about the Herndon Alliance and HCAN from some of your previous writing. Their role in this health care debate is of great interest if one cares about how a group can gain influence and successfully push its point of view out of all proportion to its merit. Their role in the health care debate is a tragic one, I think, because this was Medicare for All, single-payer’s time. The country is ready for it. If the same money and political force had been placed behind it as has been placed in back of the PO notion, I think we would have won this one by now and single-payer would be the law of the land.
Perhaps I’m wrong about this. But I don’t think so. What SP has going for it is its simplicity and the Medicare model. The Republicans and the industry would have found it hard to scare people about a Medicare extension and enhancement like HR 676, and all progressives could have put their shoulders to the wheel in getting this passed with a completely clear conscience and a sense of mission. You said:
I think I see the “groupthink” thing as a general pattern in this Administration. It seems to me that Obama looks at alternatives in deciding on policy alright. And he appears to be rational in his consideration. But when he begins to consider issues, he generally seems to have made a pre-decision on the franme he will use for decision making. Alternatives that are outside his frame are off the table. The limits of his frames seem to be determined by political judgments that come from his gut and that he does not arrive at through as rational a process as he uses after his pre-decision on a frame is made.
I think I see this pattern in his approach to fixing the financial system. I think he pre-decided that taking the big banks into receivership wasn’t on the table, even though many economists thought that he should have handled them that way. So all the other ideas for bringing the banks back were considered, but using resolution on them was never really compared on all fours with other alternatives.
The same thing happened with the stimulus package. Early on, He and Rahm appear to have decided that ideas such as those of Krugman, Stieglitz, Baker, Galbraith, Kuttner, Reich, and others couldn’t be sold to the Congress. So he never tried to make the sale to the American people, even though it was apparent then and it is even more so now that the stimulus being considered then and eventually passed was only half the size of what was needed to bring jobs back and also was targeted on the wrong things.
At the time there were stories about how Rahm and he thought that people like Krugman were probably right fron an economic point of view, but that they had never gotten a bill through Congress. Sounds similar to me to his views on single-payer. He admits it’s the best thing from a solution point of view, but he took it off the table as a decision alternative on political feasibility grounds.
In foreign policy, he appears to be taking a very careful rational approach to what comes next in Afghanistan, but one thing that’s not on the table, from all we hear, is the full withdrawal alternative. Another case of a decision alternative withdrawn from the process prematurely.
I see the point of not wanting to do things that are not politically feasible. But I think political feasibility is a very slippery thing which can vary from month to month, and that it is a great mistake to take the best solution to any problem off the table until you have actually proven by attempting to sell it that it is, indeed, politically feasible. I see this Administration taking “best solutions’ off the table all the time and then muttering about how “the perfect is the enemy of the good.” However, I think that “the timid is just as much the enemy of the good as the perfect is.” And I also think that this Administration’s embrace of the timid reflects outdated lessons learned in the Clinton Administration durng a center-right period in American History.
Now, however, we’re living in a period when the country does not yet know whether it’s still center-right or has moved to another position. Exactly where it moves will depend on who is successful at solving the nation’s problems, and on the nature of the solutions that appear to work. If these solutions involve Government, the Center-left orientation of American politics which was so successful from the 1930s to through the ’60s will again be the order of the day. What actually happens will depend very much on this Administration and whether it can formulate and implement real solutions to problems. The half-measures it always takes while bleating about political feasibility, will only lead to a right-wing reaction and another opportunity for the forces that came very close to bankrupting us so recently, will again get another chance to make themselves richer while putting the nation into an even deeper hole.
Coming back to health insurance reform and health care reform, the bill that comes out of this Congress, is now almost sure to be highly inadequate. We won’t even get the second best of a Hacker-type PO plan out of it. But those backing the Administration will trumpet what a great advance it is and also say that we can’t possible take up reform again until we at least give the new bill a chance to work. In other words, they’re going to tell people to shut up until at least 2015.
We’ve got to fight that, to immediately point out the shortcomings of this bill, and to get a national movement going to by-pass it with a version of HR 676. It’s going to be hard to make to make that case. But if we don’t, we’ll have a much worse mess in five years than we have now.
This is a great point. I’ve been puzzling over it for a while now. Your comments about the Herndon Alliance are really interesting and I will be looking into it in the future.
You absolutely echo my reaction to Lakoff, which is complete and total disgust, and I am glad to find a group of people who have independently come to the same conclusion. It is so gratifying to know that one is not crazy.
When I went through the list of Health Care for America Now’s steering committee, what I found is that the think tank type organizations such as Campaign for America’s Future and the Center for American Progress have the most clearly anti-single payer positions. The unions have at least endorsed HR 676, though of course that doesn’t mean they are devoting any actual resources into promoting it as opposed to behaving the same as the think tanks. But I haven’t known where to find that information, though I will look into Herndon.
These links may be of interest:
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2009062408/why-not-single-payer
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/hlthaff.w5.119v1
This whole discussion is invaluable. Thanks to everyone. You may also want to look at my small post about this year’s single payer polls. (You will need to click the link twice to get through the Emergency Funding Appeal.)
khin, Have you read Kip’s articles on SP. If not, I recommend them highly Links here.
Yes, every time I criticized Lakoff, I was met with shocked looks. How could I be so…well…dumb? For this White House it is all about messaging and “tone”. If you can just get the right tone, no one notices that curtain over there moving. People don’t like details and facts, don’t you know? Well tell that to my rancher husband. He’s interested in the user’s manual. People like facts if delivered with, as John Edwards always said, “With clarity and conviction”. Lake and Lakoff don’t quite get the conviction part. And they think “clarity” means catchy phrases and quoting the Bible.
mm, Just a suggestion. How about getting Lakoff on your show and asking him some tough questions?
these are not bugs, they are features.
Maybe so, spork. But never under-estimate the role of just plain old stupidity in politics.
Anyway, Hacker’s PO was hacked post haste from covering 129 million to 10 million.
“Robust” such a subjective and relative term. Robust in whose eyes? The bribed Congress? With a vengeful lobby that has zero tolerance for change since the money and fix has been in for so long re Congress and Adm. financial and medical industrial complex campaign financing.
Once again, I think of Capra’s Mr. Smith movie whereby the machines overturned the little red wagons that carried the real truth, and the lying pages of the corporate machine spit out fast and the thugs did their thuggery.
When was the last time on Charlie Rose or anywhere we heard any of the crony deciders and their know it all pundit cheerleaders in this country say anything about the down to earth plight of human beings? Any regret for the deaths, national or foreign, by the war game military or domestic policy strategizing. Any morality emanating from the tube? That would be vilified probably as “ideology” of the worst order. I know Bill Moyers is trying. Jon Stewart doing it his way for so long, too.
We need a humanist paradigm shift from the patriarchal, power and competition, we’re okay no one else is mind set to partnership and cooperation.
People over profits. People over nations.
Cronyism, the enemy. Codependency. Some people help you move. Codependent friends help you move bodies. And at some point will get other codependent friends to help them move YOURS. Too late. Should have kept your integrity.
And that level of toxic cronyism is what is destroying us as a country and helping us destroy the world.
Hi lib, It’s more than cronyism. We’ve had that before, and fought it successfully before. Now see a lot of alienation, mistrust, and loss of faith in American Democracy. So everyone puts their own self-interest ahead of others. They’re not afraid of the fall of the social order, because from their point of view, it’s already fallen and every person for themselves is all there is left.
Ralphbon, thank you for your kind words.
Your comment and Marmor’s call attention to the dilemma from hell that Hacker et al imposed upon themselves when they set out to induce progressives to support the PO instead of a single-payer bill. On the one hand, they had to persuade progressives, who since the 1990s have been huge single-payer supporters, that single-payer was not feasible and the PO was. On the other, they had to persuade the insurance industry and the right that the PO wouldn’t lead to a single-payer.
In the video you refer to, we see Hacker trying to resolve this dilemma by telling his (progressive) audience that his PO will lead to a single-payer but without upsetting the American public the way a single-payer allegedly would. That was July 2008. I would bet big dollars that was the last time Hacker tried to resolve the tension between trying to excite progressives and not infuriate the right by predicting the PO would lead to a single-payer.
Some time between the shooting of that video and approximately February 2009, Hacker decided he would be better off trying to resolve the dilemma from hell by throwing bones to the right, not the left, and concealing from the left what he was doing. Hacker and his colleagues in Congress and HCAN decided to let the Democrats write up legislation with a watered down PO in it and not warn the left (and the public) that the watering down had occurred.
We would have been far better off if Hacker et al. had figured out the truth from the beginning — the truth being, as Marmor put it in that interview, that if Congress could be persuaded to enact Hacker’s original version of the PO, it could also be persuaded to enact a single-payer.
Kip
That reminds me of a post I did a few months ago called “Disingenuousness and the Public Option.” One of the things that worries me now, is that PO advocacy will not be over even if a weak PO comes out of the current shenanigans. PO advocates seem to have little capacity to recognize that their whole strategy was in error. So, now that it’s on the point of failing, they fully intend to press on after the failure and to waste money, resources, people, and oxygen that might be used to get Medicare for All, single-payer passed. Just as the people in the Clinton Administration failed to learn the right lesson from their failure to pass reform, the PO people are learning the wrong lesson from their failure to get good reform.
ah, lets, you sure are preaching to me as choir when you say that about oxygen and resources fighting for the lesser, lessening ever faster, of two evils.
progressives got down with dogs, and the country gets up with fleas, re adm. and the public optioners. Hacker couldn’t even recognize his option.
-:)-:)-:)-:)-:) Thanks for the old saw.
I hadn’t seen your “Disingenuousness …” article. I agree with it completely.
Like you, I’m very concerned about what will happen if a scrawny PO is enacted. Activists who should otherwise be working for a single-payer system (or some other good cause) will be sucked into an endless battle with the insurance industry about how to balance the PO on the knife’s edge, as you put it — whether to open the exchanges to employers with 20 employees vs 45, whether to augment the loans available to start up “options” from $2 billion to $3 billion, whether to set premiums for the PO in Tulsa 2% vs 4% below the premiums of the insurance companies in Tulsa, whether insurers A and B in Phoenix are using marketing practices that push sicker patients into the “option” in Phoenix, etc.
I see the upcoming battle over a weak “option” as a lot like the fight over “patient protection” from managed-care insurers that many of us got sucked into in the latter half of the 1990s. We just had to do it, for both moral and organizing reasons. But it meant we were spending less time promoting single-payer legislation.
Kip
I thought you’d like it, since it was, after all, based on your own fine work. The persistence of support for the PO when its utility as a trojan horse for single-payer has been shown to be non-existent is really infuriating. A few weeks ago, Jane Hamsher, nyceve, and Marcy Wheeler, three very charismatic figures around here, formed a non-profit called Public Option Please.
When I read about it, I just couldn’t believe they would want to institutionalize the PO delusion. But there it was, concrete evidence that even if the PO loses, it won’t be the end of it. Its advocates won’t be returning to Medicare for All, single-payer. They just can’t admit that their smart-ass PO political move was bad strategy and that their support of the PO versus single-payer is just plain wrong. So, they will suck the oxygen out of single payer for years to come because they can’t recognize their own monumental error in supporting the PO in the first place. What a travesty!
Kip, you are dead on as usual about the pollster Celinda Lake. I have a half written essay called “Stop Lake and Lakoff Before It’s Too Late” or some such title. I was at a Montana Democratic meeting last week and could just hear the Lake phrases coming out of our state party officials. They were pleased that the Democrats had been oh so clever to use “public” instead of “government” option. I rolled my eyes and muttered “Curse you Celinda” who by the way is from Montana. Sorry..Again. Also at same meeting the ideas of Prof Lakoff got trotted out again in the same old simplistic way. “We are the party of family values. Issues divide. Values unite.” “Throw in Bible verses when you can.”
What drivel. (I also wrote an essay last year refuting the old “issues divide, values unite” nonsense. When issues are defined with clarity and conviction, we put aside some of the divisive stuff and unite around an issue like quality health care for everybody. And as Kip and Lets point out, if there is honest polling and not polling done to just give strength to a point of view, the issue is even less divisive.)
The dishonesty in Washington is staggering. Whether it is intentional (which I tend towards) or delusional, it is dangerous and has finally ruined this country.
You hit on another factor that I think needs to be discussed in any history of the PO and the cult-like support for it, and that is Lakoff’s influence on the Democrats. Lakoff misled many Democrats into thinking their problem wasn’t their stand on issues but their “messaging” about those issues — “messaging” that somehow conveyed to the unwashed masses that Democrats care about “values” just as much as Pat Robertson does. The Lakoff “messaging” fad took off immediately after the 2004 election. It played well to Democrats who were bummed by having two elections stolen from them. I perceived Lakoff as someone who encouraged Democrats to play word games rather than get serious about endorsing good policy.
The Lakoff craze took off just about the time the founders of the Herndon Alliance were connecting with each other and with Hacker. My hypothesis is that the Herndon Alliance, influenced by Lakoff, decided there was nothing wrong with a pro-insurance-industry health care policy that couldn’t be solved by some clever “messaging.” So they hired Celinda Lake. Lake, who never met a euphemism she didn’t like, eagerly reinforced the Lakoff theology about words trumping policy.
In the hands of Lake and the Herndon Alliance, Lakoff’s flabby “messaging” theology got turned into something that resembles a cult of lying. If this seems extreme, go to the Herndon Alliance’s website and read the stuff they produce these days. They encourage all politicians who care about universal coverage (e.g., Democrats) to say any damn thing that enters their minds about “health care reform.” They don’t link these claims to anything — to any particular bill, not even to a label. They just encourage pols to make stuff up.
Compared to manipulation of reality that Lake and the Herndon Alliance engage in, the bait-and-switch tactics of Hacker and HCAN seem tame.
Kip
Well done again. “The cult of lying” is added to my list of Kipisms. My favorite of yours is Political Yes Buts
They are actually Political Yes Fat Butts. But I quibble.
Flabby is also a wonderful word for Lake and Lakoff. I met and listened to Lakoff at the “Take Back America” convention in DC in 2004. I was new to “party”politics and wanted to go to something called a “progressive’ convention. People followed the little rotund professor as if he were a rock star. I too was very interested because I love words (I’m in the movie business and was an actress/director in NYC theater). But I became suspicious right away. What was this “nurturing parent” bullshit? Dems are nurturing and Repugs are patriarchal. Doesn’t that make Dems sound soft even if a matriarchy is probably a good idea about now?
After two more conferences, I was sick of Lakoff. I was then not only sick of him, but began to see him as dangerous. But I felt like a lone voice until now.
Thank you for calling this hoax out.
By the way, I think Lakoff made his “reputation” by trying to be the anti Chomsky in linguistics. That should make your head spin.
BTW. folks I wrote something on Yes, but too, after reading Kip’s piece, here.
On Lakoff, I respect the work that he and other cognitive scientists have been doing and I think that we ignore it or reject it at our peril. However, having said that, I don’t view Lakoff as providing a rationalization for Democrats to take dishonest approaches to communication. I view it more as a matter of not saying single-payer in situations where we use “medicare for All.”
Why? Because people know what Medicare means. They don’t know what “single-payer” means. It’s a wonk’s term, and is not one that people immediately understand. If we want to both win and do what is right, we’ll need clear and friendly communication that is meaningful to people, and also good policy that fixes our common problems. And Butw, if the Herndon Alliance had really listened to Lakoff they would have supported “single-payer” under the label “enhanced Medicare for All.”
Last night, KO spoke approvingly of the House Democrats re-branding their version of the PO as “Medicare for Everybody.” He even said that even if this is not strictly accurate, it’s great to see it of it can increase our chances of getting a PO out of the Congress. Now generally I like KO. He has passion and he really seems to care about people. But, nevertheless, I hated to see this explicit endorsement of dishonesty, as long as it works. Open societies depend on honesty, without it they cannot function. KO was endorsing lying as long as it worked. I almost fell off my chair.
Hi mm, I hope it hasn’t yet ruined this country, or if it has, at least not yet beyond repair. We still retain the ability to throw the rascals out. We evidently made a mistake this time and just voted yet another rascal in. But we need to keep trying until we get a keeper. Alan Grayson anyone?
@20, thanks mm.
I am watching Newshour. The anti-trust exemption that medical industrial complex enjoys has encouraged price gouging to exponential degrees. Time to drop the faux indignation, insurance companies and cronies.
Also I meant to mention to lets, that the attitude of citizenry, cynical, when everyone cheats on insurance, they do it, govt. doesn’t care, we should play the fraud game ourselves. When you say no, people call you eccentric. No honor on either side much of the time. 11th commandment. Don’t get caught.
And thanks to George W thousands of fraud FBI had to turn to homeland security work as the foxes raped the hens and robbed the henhouses.
So much merging of insurance companies, now too big to fail themselves.
Insurance companies squawking that govt. wants to micromanage. Wow. If only. They, the medical industries, have zero tolerance for interference cuz they have compromised the crony government.
Helmsley of UnitedHealth going to make even more than $57,000 a day soon. So much disparity, so much abandonment of basic human right to affordable and humane health care.
Have we lost the class war? It would seem. 45,000 dying each year. The American killing fields, though it is covert and not in one flood of water like Katrina, but the same indifference on massive, heartbreaking levels.
We haven’t lost libby. As long as we can vote new people in, we’ve still got a chance.
great diary and thread! many thanks to letsgetitdone, kip and all commenters.
re the thread discussion: i heard david swanson say something in line with ralphbon’s comment @6. tomorrow, i’ll try to track down the podcast and transcribe the relevant bit to post here.
re the polls: you all might want to take a look at khin’s diary for comment:
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/10692
Thanks selise, glad you like the thread. On khin’s diary, will do.
I’ve made a reply to khin’s diary here.
Welcome to another decade and a half of Quality Affordable Euphemisms for All.
Ralph, No. Not this time. No more BS. Let’s build that movement and overwhelm this phony legislation.