As I wrote in Part One of this series, “deficit hawkism” is the ideology that prioritizes bringing tax revenues and Government expenditures into balance ahead of other far more essential national needs and priorities. Right now, deficit hawkism is becoming increasingly prevalent, and its expressions very strident. It’s not limited to Republicans, but is bipartisan. It is not limited to blue dog Democrats, but is also espoused by some, like Senator Russ Feingold, who have unquestioned, and well-earned, progressive credentials. Despite all the politicians, policy makers, and pundits, who propound it, deficit hawkism is a false ideology, and following it now is something we ought not do. In fact, taking any serious action to reduce Federal Budget deficits in the foreseeable future, barring the return of inflation, is a form of slow national suicide, and is entirely inappropriate for Democrats, the party of the people, to even be contemplating, much less agitating for. In this diary, I will lay out the reasons why, by analyzing the assertions, reviewed in Part One, of both Evan Bayh and his Senate compatriots, and David Broder, and showing that they are arrant nonsense.
Bayh: CBO forecasts $10 trillion in additional deficits over the next 10 years.
First, that figure is exaggerated. CBO now forecasts about $7.1 Trillion in additional deficits, or about 30% less than Bayh claims. Second and more importantly, however, CBO’s deficit estimates are very sensitive to forecast errors in revenues, which, in turn, are themselves sensitive to forecast errors in economic recovery and growth. CBO’s accuracy in these forecasts is not very great over a period of a decade, and it also doesn’t claim accuracy for them. Historically, there is great variation in change in GDP over a decade, and projections ae difficult based on past history.
For example, during the period between 1930 -1940, GDP remained nearly constant and was very slightly lower in 1940. During, the period between 1940 and 1950 GDP increased by a multiplier of 2.82, and in other decades up to the present ranged from a high of 2.69 between 1970 and 1980, to a low of 1.49 between 2000 and 2010 (estimated).
CBO’s forecast of economic growth during the next 10 years is clearly based on the immediate past history of the Bush Administration economy primarily. But the mean decade-long multiplier since 1930 is 1.96, while its standard deviation is 0.60. This makes the past decade an atypical decade in the economic history of the United States. Of course, the CBO forecast can be defended by saying that it flows from the current structure of the economy, which still hasn’t changed much from the Bush economy. That’s true. But CBO has no way of taking account of the structural changes that are bound to take place in the next few years, in part spurred by the new programs and legislation causing the very large deficits the Government is running right now, and by other programs it has yet to implement. So, the CBO forecast of economic growth, revenue growth, and therefore the deficits over the decade have to be in error. The only real question is whether the multiplier will collapse as it did in the 1930s, or whether it will rebound to a number closer to the historical average multiplier of 1.96. If that were to happen, then there would be no deficit at all to speak of at the end of 2019. In short, Bayh’s panic over “the $10 Trillion deficit” is without foundation because 1) it’s only $7 Trillion, and 2) there’s every reason to believe that even this forecast is in error, and even some reason to believe that there may be no deficit at all.
Bayh: The baby boomers are retiring.
CBO forecasts take account of that on the expenditure side, where the long-term forecasts are much better than they are on the revenue side. The more interesting question is what the impact of these retirements will be on the revenue or economic growth side of the economy. The CBO and Bayh, both see Boomer retirements as an expenditure drain. But Boomers will both spend more and work more than previous age cohorts, and their potentially greater economic activity than we have seen before may produce unexpected revenue that CBO and Bayh and his colleagues overlook in their forecasts.
Bayh: The American taxpayer (actually the Federal Government) made interest payments of $250 billion in 2008 to creditors.
Bayh, of course, is suggesting that this interest burden will get so great over the next decade that Federal Government efforts to pay the interest on the national debt will necessitate increased borrowing from creditors in private markets. The only problem with this assumption is that the Federal Government doesn’t have to borrow money. It can just “print” what it needs to, in order to pay off either interest on the debt, or the debt itself. This brings us to an important general point. The Federal Government controls the currency, which means it is very different from any family, Company, private or non-profit organization, or State and local Government. Other entities cannot credit themselves with more money than they take in from others. But the Federal Government can.
Bayh: “Long-term deficits will drive up interest rates for consumers, raise prices of goods and services, and weaken America’s financial competitiveness and security.”
My reply to the statement just before this one, suggests that long-term deficits, if necessary to get the economy going, don’t have to drive up interest rates, for the simple reason that the Federal Government has no need to be out there borrowing money to repay its debts. However, apart from that, one really has to wonder what world Bayh and his colleagues have been living in that they would subscribe to a statement that is so contrary to recent facts that Bayh and his colleagues have lived through. Really, do they read the newspapers, or just live in their own little dream worlds which no facts can penetrate?
Every year from 1970 through 1997, the Federal Government ran a deficit. Throughout that period, we saw interest rates vary all over the lot, and the only relation between running a deficit and interest rate levels readily observable was caused by Paul Volcker’s decision to wring inflation out of the economy by raising interest rates out of sight, and bringing economic activity to a standstill. Of course, Volcker lowered interest rates during the early 1980s, just in time for Reagan to run his deficits, which were often twice as large as Jimmy Carter’s, but which, nevertheless, never seemed to bother Volcker. During the Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, and Bush 43 Administrations, we saw a downward trend in interest rates over the long term, regardless of whether the Administration ran deficits or not. Of course, the largest deficits as a percent of GDP are those we have right now, and the prime rate is close to zero.
Bayh: Long-term deficits rob us of resources we need to invest “in energy, education, health care, and tax relief for small businesses and middle-class families.“
This notion seems to be based on the idea that long-term deficits take money away from the rest of us, which we cannot use to invest in the economy. But this idea is precisely the opposite of the truth. Federal deficits actually add resources to the economy, because, as Warren Mosler says:
”Any $US government deficit exactly EQUALS the total net increase in the holdings $US financial assets of the rest of us- businesses and households, residents and non residents- what’s called the ‘non government’ sector.”
That is: the amount of the deficit exactly equals the amount of increased savings for the rest of us. So the greater the Government deficit is, the more resources are provided by the Government to the rest of us. This simple fact of economics has been known since at least the 1930s. Why don’t Bayh and his colleagues know it.
Bayh: The bigger our deficits, the more we will have to borrow from foreign creditors to finance our massive debt.
Again this notion is based on the idea that the Government is like other organizations or like families, or individuals. But the Government is not. It can generate its own currency and its own ability to pay. If the Government chooses to for policy reasons, or because its leaders don’t understand economics, it can choose to borrow from foreign creditors. Alternatively, it can finance all of its debt by “monetizing” it, by issuing itself credits to pay its creditors with. These creditors must accept payment in this currency because the debts involved were incurred in dollars.
Broder: "people understand that we’re stealing from future generations," by passing on our debt to our children and grandchildren.
Broder has been one of our biggest deficit hawks since the 1970s. He continually worries about the huge debts we are passing on to our descendants. That’s because he assumes that our descendants will have to pay it back. He never asks, however, who will make them pay it back, or who they will pay it back to? But, still, he has this idea, that if they have to pay it back, it will be a terrible hardship for them and will make them poor.
Now, when I contemplate Broder, or the very many politicians who continuously warn the public of the burden that we are passing on to our children and grandchildren in the form of the national debt, I have to wonder whether, given the amount of time they’ve been hanging around Washington, they’ve never heard an economist explain some simple facts about the national debt; or alternatively whether this whole business of concern trolling about the national debt is just lying to the public to manufacture an excuse not to do things that need doing. First, most of the debt is held by the American public. So, who will our children and grandchildren pay it back to if not themselves? Second, if the Government wished to pay back all of the national debt held by the public tomorrow, it could do so, just by issuing credits to the bank accounts of all the people holding the debt. Everyone would have to accept that repayment, because it was repayment in dollars that the Government promised. This applies, equally well, by the way to foreign countries and investors as well as to US entities. In all cases the debt may be repaid in dollars, and the Government has an unlimited amount of those it can credit to other accounts. Some of the debt, of course, is owed from one Government agency to another, but, of course, it is no problem to repay this at any time. It’s just shifting money from one pocket to another.
The really essential thing to keep in mind about the “national debt burden” on our children and grandchildren, is that however large the national debt becomes, its size will not stop our children from consuming or owning everything they are clever and diligent enough to produce during their lives. They will never have to send any of their real wealth back in time to us or to the creditors who lend us money today. And as for the descendants of those creditors, they can pay them back using US currency that their Government will control.
To understand this, it’s useful to know that the Government repays debts by changing values in its accounting spreadsheets. Mosler puts it this way:
”. . . paying off the national debt is but a matter of subtracting the value of the maturing securities from one account at the Fed, and entering [sic] adding that value to a bank account at the Fed.”
And since that’s all that there is to it, Broder and Bayh and his colleagues, ought to know that there is no burden on our children and grandchildren from the national debt. And they should be very ashamed that they evidently don’t know that, and that they think this is a serious issue that has a more important priority than any other except, of course, the need to fight wars and avoid full-blown depressions.
What’s really behind all this angst about deficits is the mistaken idea that the Government can have a problem of solvency. It can run out of money and so go broke. But the fact is that this fear is due to a misunderstanding,a throwback to the days when the currency had to be backed by some finite resources such as gold. We live in a different time. The currency or credits issued by the Government are backed by nothing except the full faith and credit of the United States of America, and that means that our Government can always pay its previous debts at any point in time. There’s no solvency issue and no solvency risk. America can’t go broke, as Robert Samuelson suggested this past Monday. The Government doesn’t need either taxes, or borrowing, to finance its expenditures. All it needs is continuing economic activity in the United States. And its job is to keep that economic activity going whenever it begins to decline due to glitches in the economic system.
Is there anything to the idea that we shouldn’t run deficits? Actually, there is, but it has nothing to do with the issues most often raised by the deficit hawks. There is a problem with running deficits when economic activity is so great that demand begins to exceed supply. When, as economists have been saying for ages, there’s too much money, chasing too few goods and services. When that happens, taxes are necessary to withdraw money from the economy so that demand doesn’t exceed supply. In the United States today however, we have no such problem. Instead we have greatly weakened demand and idle productive capacity. In that kind of situation the Government needs to get people working again and to increase demand so that real wealth continues to be produced and so that the capacity to produce it is not destroyed.
This brings us to the national suicide part of my title. The point of “deficit hawkism” is to say to people and to Democrats, in particular, because they’re the party who wants government to spend money to do things, “hey, you need to go slow. You can’t do everything you want. You can’t educate America’s children, or have national health insurance, or recreate the energy sector and create a green economy, or modernize our infrastructure, or modernize rail transportation, or create an entirely new industrial economy based on 21st century technology, or spend money cleaning up the environment, and fighting global warming, or creating jobs for people so that the unemployment rate is cut back down to 4% or less, or invest in scientific and medical research, or in the Arts, or give people more leisure for their families and for private pursuits. And you can’t do all these things, because money for them is limited. The Government can raise only a limited amount of money through taxes and borrowing, so we just can’t afford all these good things progressives and Democrats want to do.”
Well, there are two replies to this. The first is that it’s false to say that the Government has limited money. It does not have to raise money through taxes and borrowing. It can issue whatever credits it wants to in order to facilitate the private sector doing the things that America needs, and it can even do some things itself, if the private sector isn’t interested in doing them. And second, most of the items I’ve listed above are things we have to do for the well-being of the United States and our democracy. There’s no question now, that the well-being of the American middle and working classes in the the United States has been declining since the early 1970s. Sure, there have been local variations in long-term trends, but middle and working class income has become stagnant and it is an old story that economic gains have been going to a smaller and smaller percentage of the population. Our infrastructure and many of our industries have been aging and failing. Our public education system is very much inferior to the systems in other industrial nations, which educate people better, and at far lower cost. The same is true in health care. Apart from reforming health insurance, the quality of our health care and its processes must be improved to the standard set by world health care leaders such as France and Japan. Our energy dependency on other nations and their fossil fuels, is a continuing and increasing threat to our national security that leads us into foreign interventions. Environmental, climate, and sustainability problems must be seriously addressed, whatever the cost in money, because they threaten the very existence of modern society. Most of these problems are long-standing, and we have not solved them. They must be solved soon, or life in the United States will rapidly become “nasty, brutish, and short," and our democracy will evolve into a plutocracy that will not easily be overthrown.”
If we intend to address these problems with the urgency and sense of purpose they deserve, we cannot afford to be fighting rear guard actions over a false issue like the deficit. Wealth is created by a society when its members are free to do what needs to be done to create real value. When we say that we can’t afford to create value, because we have to worry about the deficit, we are not being economical by saving money we can’t afford to spend. What we are doing instead is refusing to use the unlimited money we can issue to create real wealth, because we believe in “the deficit lie,” in the myth that is the old-time religion. We have to stop believing in the myth that the Government can’t do things because its money is limited, and start believing in the idea that the Government is us acting together to solve serious American problems that can’t wait. The Government belongs to all of us. It is ours, and we shouldn’t let Bayh, or Broder, or Samuleson, or Pete Peterson, or Russ Feingold, or anybody else, talk us into the idea that we shouldn’t use its unlimited authority to issue credits to help us to act together to solve our serious and long-standing problems. That way lies the decline and fall of the United States. It is national suicide.
(Also posted at the Alllifeisproblemsolving blog where there may be more comments)



50 Comments







I simply reject deficit arguments out of hand because those espousing them clearly don’t really believe them and only use them where it’s a matter of arguing against expenditure for things they really oppose on ideological grounds.
Just yesterday I asked myself, “Is there even a single example of a true deficit hawk, who therefore did not support the bailouts, wars, Pentagon budgets, Bush tax cuts?” I couldn’t come up with one. (I didn’t know about Feingold. Did he vote against all those things?)
(It’s the same with interpreting the Constitution: strict, loose, “originalist”. Or with accepting the results of democracy itself. Almost no one who proclaims exalted ideals regarding these really lives up to them. On the contrary, almost everyone in action is an ends-justify-the-means relativist tactician. The ideologically correct outcome dictates whether or not one lives up to his “principle” in a given case.)
Hi Russ, Just because many people who advocate deficit hawkism don’t really believe it doesn’t mean, by itself, that the tenets of DH are false. So it’s still necessary to confront and refute its arguments.
In addition, there are people who are consistent in their deficit hawkism and appear to believe it, though everyone makes exceptions, usually for “the troops.” Russ Feingold is among those who have been consistent over the years. I suspect Claire McCaskill is another who believes the BS. Amy Klobuchar is another, I think. Ron Paul appears quite sincere. Even though he’s involved in a lot of exceptions, I think Judd Gregg is really religious about it, and that that is why he didn’t join the Administration.
I’m not opposed to deficits per se.
But the current deficit spending for war and bailouts and inadequate and stupid stimulus is terrible, IMO.
I hate cheapening of the dollar.
Hi Art45, The dollar is already cheap. It’s not even paper, anymore, it’s electrons in spreadsheets now. -:)
However, let’s ask what’s wrong with the dollar getting cheaper. If that happens, the price of imports will go up. Is that bad for us? If the dollar gets cheap enough won’t it pay to make our own stuff again instead of having it made in China? Is this bad for us as nation? Has globalization benefited the American middle class or working class?
Cheapening the dollar wouldn’t be so bad if wages were rising.
When wages are stagnant or falling, cheapening the dollar is awful, IMO.
Right, but wages would be rising if we were making things here again, and if we’d shorten the work week, as we should certainly do.
sorta related, a comment i made to dday recently:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/03/china-builds-turbines-for-american-wind-farm/#comment-2795
will try to find time to write more on this, it is my second priority to healthcare. but i am also trying to educate myself on these matters as i go, so there is lots of background reading for me to do (which takes time).
thanks letsgetitdone! this is such an important message. i’m really glad you’ve taken it on to write about. we have real economic problems and constraints, but right now the deficit is not one of them (other than it’s too small). we have to run a fed budget deficit if we want a growing economy without increasing private debt. what’s important is what we spend it on (and the magnitude of the deficit).
p.s. your link to warren mosler’s 7 Deadly Innocent Frauds is an earlier draft. the most recent version (still a draft) is at my link.
Thanks selise. Didn’t I link to the one updated on September 20? And isn’t that the latest.
BTW, thanks for going back and commenting on Scarecrow’s comment about Grayson’s Disingenuousness. The comment was very much in agreement with the views I expressed in my comment, just before Scarecrow’s.
You said:
I had said:
Very similar, sentiments, I think, but mine was perhaps a little more long-winded. -:)
absolutely.
and better written. :-)
p.s. you might take a look at the last three “daily health care news” posts from jason. i’ve asked thesame question on each of them, and if i don’t get a satisfactory response, there’s going to be a diary.
it’s the march version at your link. nicely formated, but not the most recent (i only read the most recent version, so don’t know if there are any/many changes).
I find his links on that page very confusing, especially the one that says updated September 20. I have a .pdf version which has a conclusion and a .doc version without a conclusion. At this point, I’m not clear on which is the later one. Also, I can no longer find the link to the .doc version.
“The financing would be on top of the $130 billion that Congress authorized for the wars just last month.
The military officer, Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, did not say how much additional money would be needed, but one figure in circulation within the Pentagon and among outside defense budget analysts is $50 billion.
Representative John Murtha, the Pennsylvania Democrat who is chairman of the House appropriations defense subcommittee, cited $40 billion last week as a hypothetical amount for the supplemental financing request. The number represented a standard calculation of $1 billion for every 1,000 troops deployed. ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/world/05military.html?_r=1&ref=world
Thanks, we need to end these wars and bring these troops home. Then maybe the deficit hawks won’t be so worried about spending money on the hcr bill and other needed reforms.
Just skimmed it so far but I agree with the big message: “the deficit” is being set up as a bogeyman for the public. It is not something people need worry about much. Not compared to employment, health care, war, civil rights etc. It’s part of the manipulation of people’s minds to serve the elites.
I often ask people,
It makes Saffron more expensive. In the past two years the price has risen about 450%. This is a real problem for those of us who like to cook Bouillibaisse, saffron Risotto, and Mussels Bili Bi (sp?). For those of us who are happy with Hamburger, however, it’s not such a big problem.
This has no bearing on the current economy because the dollar means something very different now than it did before, after abandoning gold and post Bretton Woods.
The dollar would all but cease to exist in its current form were this to happen, and we would probably see martial law imposed to deal with the social instability that economic instability would usher in.
If fiscal steps are taken that dilute the value of the dollar through the creation of debt through credit, as is happening now, then it won’t take much to shake confidence from enough purchasers of debt to send the dollar crashing. Indeed, the Fed has had to support the greenback debt machine through such contrivances as quantitative easing, the fed buying US debt, and who knows what other black box demand programs.
If that debt were taken on in order to actually invest in a productive economy, then that might spark confidence in the future and not discourage investment in debt. But debt to preserve a system in which faith is collapsing is a terrible idea.
This is the Peter Pan economy, where anything is possible so long as we crede, believe. Faith and credit in the US government is predicated upon confidence in the US economy relative to other options. Once that comparative advantage is squandered because the US economy does not offer as attractive a refuge for capital as alternatives, then the dollar as reserve currency, as debt sink for capital, evaporates.
If the US is relegated to paying for imports using hard currency, that is the sum total of hard currency that is generated through exports, debt, petroleum trading and the like, then the US will look much different.
Internal to the US, printing dollars would pose few problems other than inflation. But external to the US, the dollar as a commodity in and of itself, the one that finances the archipelago of military bases, for instance, such monetary irresponsibility would portend significant consequences.
Wealth is generated in a society when people create things that others value and purchase.
I’m not a deficit hawk. There is plenty of money, it is all just allocated according to a DLC/GOP consensus that is outsourcing manufacturing and middle class jobs while giving free reign to a financial sector that has inserted debt into each and every crack and crevice of one’s life. Very little can be had without going into hock.
What we need is a fundamental progressive reassessment of how debt and credit work in our economy relative to our currency as domestic means of exchange and international reserve currency, not some knee jerk reaction to the frame set up by the DLC and GOP.
In some cases, it will prove wise to avoid debt, in some cases, we should not fear it. The dollar serves two roles, and the fed is riding a knife’s edge trying to keep it all rigged together with baling wire.
The dollar does not play by the rules of any other currency but it might if steps are taken which knock it down from its lofty perch as reserve currency.
-marc
I agree with a lot of what you say here, especially in the last part of your comment, but:
this:
Actually, Nixon abandoned the Gold Standard in 1971. The multiplier during the time of Nixon, Ford and Carter was 2.69, the highest multiplier we’ve seen execpt for the War and Post-war decade. Since then, The Reagan-Bush decade shows a multiplier of 2.10, the Bush-Clinton decade 1.69, and the Bush 43 – Obama decade 1.49. My own theory about this it is that it may be related to globalization, but not to international currency trends. I think it has to do with the increasing level of inequality in the US since the 70s, its relationship to global economic trends, the trend in this country towards abandoning the progressive income tax system, and the decline of the relative consumption power of the middle and working classes. I think it’s the interaction of these factors that has slowed the growth in GDP over time. If the Obama Administration were to make strong moves in the direction of increasing social justice and reducing inequality, and if it were to run larger deficits directed toward real investments in the future, then I think the growth multiplier in GDP would improve to more historic levels.
You also said:
I think you need more development to justify a theory like this. I’m not saying that there would be consequences in the global economic system. There’s all kinds of psychology involved and it might be necessary to do things gradually. But, in principle, the debt is an accounting phenomenon. That’s all. How people would react to such an act around the world is a complex matter. What’s there alternative? They could always raise the future prices of the goods we import. So Americans would experience hardships insofar as we need those goods, but whether these would be so severe that we would need to impose martial law is an entirely different question.
I agree with your statement about what the Fed is doing, but I’m not sure what you mean by “the dollar crashing.” I think we need some quantitative statements. Would it decline by 1/3, 1/2, 3/4, more? I think a sharp decline might well be good for us in terms of making some industries profitable again, domestically. I’m really not afraid of a dollar that is cheaper internationally. It is a danger if prices of domestically produced items go up here. But I’m not at all sure that would happen with slack demand on this end.
I agree to some extent with this. Debt to preserve economic arrangements that are unproductive is no good, because such debt doesn’t lead to producing anything of value. But debt for purposes of producing what we value is something we should never worry about.
Let’s not mistake capital for money. Capital is comprised of material things we use to produce other things. It’s not money. Money’s just a stand-in for it. If people from other countries want to send their money somewhere else because they think other countries have more attractive opportunities, why is that a problem for us when our own Government can generate whatever money we need to drive our economy? Paradoxically, also, if our Government takes steps to see that our economy remains dynamic, I’ll bet investors will still send their money over here. BTW, the term “Peter Pan” economy is not an argument. It’s just name-calling. And it carries with it the very assumption you’re trying to prove, namely that an economy needs a “hard foundation,” of some sort. It’s easy to prove an assumption, when you begin by assuming its truth.
Hard currency? Is there still any of that left? Everything is floating including the dollar. Do you think the US will have to pay for imports with gold? Somehow I doubt that. Look I think that issuing more currency to pay debts would certainly raise the price of imports and I agree that that would make the US look very different. But that’s what I want. I want a US that is producing many more things made here, and that is not exporting its industries. That will happen if the global value of US currency goes down.
You mean we wouldn’t be able to maintain our military bases abroad and would have to bring our troops home. Where do I sign up for that? Also, there’s another instance of labeling here. “Monetary Irresponsibility” is in the eye of the beholder. Can you define it in a way that doesn’t assume what you’re trying to prove in argument? I doubt it. But invite you to try.
You also said:
I still like mine better. But in reply to yours. What if people are not free to create things that others value and can purchase because deficit concerns are preventing the Government from providing a sufficient currency? Then, too little wealth will be created. Also, what if one of the things we want to create is “happiness.” People can create that, and value that, but they can’t generally “purchase” it.
I agree pretty much with the remainder of your post. Using public debt for non-productive things is not something we ought to do because there is the danger of inflation. But using it to produce things that have social value is something we should never avoid.
Yes…and it’s a lie! What a wonderful post once again, Joe, as you really seem to be unable to produce posts or diaries not worth reading (regardless of the number of comments). However -your post, one level up- means to me, that this US economic and social system is simply not sustainable (in the sense of keeping it up to a certain level, or avoiding decline). There are many ways to look at this. The use of too much resources or the lack of adaptive capacity. But this collective US system will eventually end; the same way as it’s individuals die, due to a lack of access to affordable, quality care. Personally I can’t wait for this evolutionary process to happen, and that this society is taken up to a next level of development. Do Americans really think that they can beat the lessons of history ? Do Americans really think that their empire in the world will last for three thousand years ? No way !!! Just look at the Romans, the Germans, etcetc. This system will fall soon, if it doesn’t adapt. Sure, Deficit Hawkism isn’t going to save our ecological and social system’s health (and that of our future generations). But what we really need are politicians who understand the rise and fall of systems: plain General Systems Theory ! Forget conservation; think “creative destruction” !
Thank you Henk, for bringing the sustainability and General Systems perspective to this. It is indispensable. I think you’ll see in some of my other comments that these views on deficit hawkism have quite radical implications when it comes to abandoning the course of international imperialism that we seem to be set on.
Sic !
I just saw in the right corner of my screen, McDonnalds promoting a Hamburger from Arizona. When does FiredogLake start to take our health matters seriously ! Are you bought and paid for by this industry ? Stop this !
US Government debt is an investment in dollar futures. Since the dollar is backed by the “full faith and credit of the USG,” investing in dollar futures means taking a bullish position on the US economy, that you believe that it will succeed.
Should the USG take monetary or fiscal steps which threaten the attractiveness of US futures, of the economy, of stability in investment, as an investment vehicle, or should another investment vehicle become more attractive than the dollar, then demand for US debt falls and the USG must take steps to make it more attractive to investment.
This could be accomplished by raising interest rates as has happened in a few economies which were not hit as bad as ours and are recovering to whatever extent. But raising interest rates puts the break on the economy by making capital more expensive and depresses the asset value of assets which require credit to purchase, namely housing. When the job market does not recover next summer, and other industrialized nations not exposed to the MBS debacle, then the US will have to raise rates to keep the game of musical chairs going and that will be disastrous.
Printing dollars or creating them with domestic credit is not compatible with a bullish position on the US economy, nor does it bode well for the value of those toxic assets, MBS, which are already holding the financial system hostage. We’d need to see some dual track domestic/reserve currency put into place to avoid that, but that exposes all sorts of other problems.
Used to be that the financal sector served as the lubricant for productive capitalism. Now finance has become domestic capitalism, because in a post-Glass Steagall world, the rates of leverage have outcompeted the productive economy for capital and outsourced productive capacity for higher returns.
That is what drives debt and until those fundamental power relationships change, we’re going to see the same priorities driving our concepts of debt and deficit.
The production of things of value is only converted to wealth when it is sold for more than it cost to make. The mere presence of a good that might be of value does not create wealth, value is a property of a transaction completed at a given time and that might actually decrease wealth.
Just like other nations use USD in order to settle international accounts, the US would need to ante up to the international settlements bar with something of value that is not scrip. And the value of that is determined by the relative attractiveness of each currency. In the instance sketched here, should the USD not be attractive to investors for a variety of reasons, then it would take many more USD, limited by the amount of reserve which can be exchanged with others for goods and services to buy further goods and services.
The hardness of a currency is the extent to which it is believed to be a reliable store of value. Once the dollar goes flaccid, it will take many more dollars to buy the same imported goods and services.
The deficit hawks would cut every possible social service before cutting loose the military. Hence the possibility of martial law. One reason why the rest of the industrial world buys into dollar hegemony is so that they don’t have to pay the military bill to stabilize capitalism, directly at least.
This is a discussion more suited to the world of Kucinichian economists. Didn’t he propose a Department of Peace? How about a Department of Happiness?
If money can take on the persona of capital, and vice versa, then money and capital are both subject to the forces that work on each other.
Because that would fuck with interest rates and choke off the domestic economy. If the USG goes ahead and creates money through credit for domestic spending, that would dilute foreign investment in the US debt and trigger a crisis of confidence on the dollar.
Right, the FIRE economy and outsourcers which spent the past three decades fucking us over are going to all of a sudden take steps to create a dynamic domestic economy?
It is not name calling. Credit = credere = to believe. When we all clap our hands and applaud the dollar and it has value. When we quit doing that, it loses value.
Economies all have hard domestic foundations, except for the US, where the dollar is a creature of global credit. It is no coincidence that rise of the Dollar as debt instrument took place simultaneously with the dismantling and outsourcing of the domestic manufacturing economy. The concept of a pure service economy or of a financial cannibalized economy seems to have been proven fallacious by eventualities. How does your systems theory square with this open-ended debt economy floating in free space, like Tinkerbell?
An economy needs to produce things of value which others purchase and hopefully turn around and use to produce more stuff for trade. It does not need to perpetually grow.
Marcos, This is a really good answer, but, in my view, it’s just going round and round in circles. Your bottom line is that you don’t want to risk the end of the dollar as the world’s reserve currency and you believe that there will be dire consequences for our economic system if that happens. But most of the consequences you sketch out in this reply simply assume what you’re trying to prove, i.e. that there would be dire consequences. Well, I too think these consequences would occur if we raised interest rates to strengthen the dollar or did any thing else in order to maintain our current position in the web of international trading relations at the expense, of building our domestic economy.
But, unlike you I think we ought to do literally nothing special to our domestic economy to maintain the international financial structure that has been created on the assumption that we would be at its center. Let the dollar float and let other nations decide what they want to do about keeping the dollar as a reserve currency or replacing it with a basket of currencies.
In regard to the financial system, I say that we cease trying to inflate the value of those toxic assets. Let them be recognized and with them the big banks as worthless. Then take the big banks into receivership, and reconstruct the banking system so that their primary function is to provide funds for local communities and businesses engaged in productive activity rather than in international finance. Taking the banks into receivership will change the power relationships you’re talking about, and create the opening we need to reinvent the economic system.
You say:
And that’s true. However, 1) we have no shortage of dollars, and 2) we need not import anywhere near as much as we do today, so this doesn’t much concern me. In fact, I’d like to see us import less and make more here. So this consquence of yours is not something I see as a problem.
You also say:
Again, I agree so far as this comment goes, but I think you’re not recognizing that this objection is inconsistent with the scenario we’re talking about because the deficit hawks would have to be politically defeated first in order to run the deficits and use the authority of the Government to generate money to do the things I want to do. In other words, overcoming the deficit hawks politically is the first step in implementing the scenario I’m talking about, so they won’t be able to support martial law in order to maintain the military.
In reply to my:
What I want to happen and what I think is going to happen or is possible are two different things. Most of my comments are reality based and do not reflect my personal policy preferences, which is why I don’t get paid much to do much political science. I’m trying to leverage my gift to analyze the lay of the land and get a bead on where things are likely to go.
I’ve got no problems with the end of dollar hegemony, and I believe that it will bring dire consequences to the US. Entitled gas guzzling yahoos having to only get as much imported stuff as their labor really warrants is going to be quite a change. And the example of Soviet disintegration and the rise of Russia, the first shoes to drop at the end of the Cold War, is the only example we have to guide us as the second shoe finally drops. The fin de sicle took 20 years to play out this past sicle, but here we are.
That said, there are people who have problems with that transition and given that we have every indication that they will try to hold this system together as long as possible by any means necessary, we will end up with something like their cold dead fingers being pried from the levers of power after a lot of agony. That structural denial while upping the ante on preserving privilege means that when equilibrium finally does punctuate, it is not going to be pretty. Riled up gas guzzling yahoos shaking their fists into the air as the elites military helicopter takes off from the Fed roof to a secured location on an unidentified tropical island.
Did I ever say that I did not want to end dollar hegemony? My analysis was of what that would mean to power and how power would react concerning that. I just don’t want to see the US turn into a capitalist anarchy like Russia did. Socialist anarchy, yes, capitalist anarchy, no.
I’d prefer to see a mortgage and credit card debt jubilee, just like in The Bible. Eliminate or write down to 1/3 all primary residence and commercial mortgages. Resources freed up from mortgage/debt service could fund health care, retirement, college and some consumption.
I agree on this but see no viable path from here to there.
I do not see them as a problem so long as the transition is facilitated, not splat like Russia.
I do not see power as being particularly amenable to democratizing the financial sector even if the elections turn out that way. There will be an equivalent of the Zapruder film shown, with the officeholder-elect asked “any questions?”
I’m not sure that defeating the deficit hawks will be sufficient to get a democratic handle on the financial system. Deficit hawkism is shorthand for funneling as many public resources into the maw of private corporations and wealthy individuals.
And it will be very interesting, especially in a post-Citizens United world, whatever that looks like, to see if the libertarians can be kneecapped and the precedence of democracy over the economy and property can ever be secured. I am not optimistic. I don’t want to go splat.
Most of what you said here I agree with. The main difference I think is that, perhaps, I don’t see the future determined to quite the extent you’re indicating here. I think we can change things is we keep pushing, that the power of democratic movements is considerable and great enough to counter the trends toward plutocracy.
You said:
I think the viable path involves two things. First, a new collapse of the present bubble. Nouriel Roubini, George Soros and others are predicting that by 2011, perhaps even by late next year. And second, this time Obama listening to the Krugman, Galbraith, Dean Baker, Robert Kuttner, Reich, and Joe Stieglitz, rather than Geithner, Summers, and the Goldman people. Hopefully Obama will be pragmatic enough to see that he doesn’t survive if he doesn’t change.
Our economy is Mr. Burns. Inflation and deflation are fighting to a relative standstill, but they are still immensely strong economic forces. Just because they balance one another out now does not mean that balance will be preserved when conditions change.
Ooh, from a Peter Pan economy to a Peter Pan politics!
If we all clap our hands, then Tinkerobama will maybe become progressive on economics?
I agree that the upcoming commercial real estate crash will wipe out the effects most all fiscal stimulus, leaving us in the hole and crashing. That the toxic CDOs are still in place dragging it all down. And that the hollowing out of the real economy by finance will leave the US economy with few options to pull out gracefully.
I’d love to see a soft landing, but expect to see martial law.
Americans are too entitled and chickenshit to get off their sofas until they want to reach for their guns after the gas runs out for their SUVs.
Marcos, Guess what? You may be right. But whether you are or not, I think we have to proceed as if you’re not, because that’s the only way we even have a chance of getting away from this plutocracy. So thanks for the story, but I prefer my narrative to yours.
I hope I’m wrong, but there is a risk and we need to try to manage it as much as we can.
Are you saying that an economy based on credit does not need capital reserves to back the credit it issues? Are you suggesting either ending leveraging or having leverage ratios of infinity by requiring no reserves?
I’ll get to 22 later. But no, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the Government is different. It doesn’t need reserves, only the authority to issue more money and the good sense to take that money back when there’s inflation.
If, as you say, the Federal Government “can just ‘print’ what it needs to, in order to pay off either interest on the debt, or the debt itself” then why not do it right now? Fire up the presses, run off $9 trillion in crisp new hundreds and pay off the national debt: fantastic idea!
The Government has three ways of handling debt. It taxes. It borrows money, and it prints money or “monetizes the debt.” Which way of handling it chooses depends on its policy goals and on the good sense of its money managers. In the current crisis the Fed neither raised taxes, nor borrowed a bunch of money to bail out the banks. It printed money, and its still doing it today. The banks are using that money to gamble in the financial instruments casino.
The Fed can’t raise taxes, its province is monetary policy, taxes are fiscal policy, province of the House of Representatives.
The Fed “printed money.” expanded its balance sheet for quantative easing, where the fed bought treasury debt, and to take on MBS from troubled institutions. The only reason why this is not causing inflation, stagflation, is because the deflationary pressures are slightly stronger then they were in the mid 1970s because there was no asset bubble to pop, just the mid wave crashing from WWII.
The elected branches took us into hock for both TARP and the stimulus to the tune of greater than $1t, those were bonds sold to investors who are betting that the dollar will retain its value.
Yes, I did mis-write when I said the Fed could raise taxes. Only the Government can do that. On “quantitative easing,” I have the impression that the Fed has actually extended 24T for the banking system and AIG to use in the current crisis. So, that goes way beyond any stimulus or TARP funds emanating from Congress.
While the House originates money bills it can’t pass them by itself. They must go through the Senate and pass the threat of a veto.
It would be good if we didn’t clutter up this discussion with elementary stuff. As a Ph.D. political scientist I do know that money bills can only originate in the House, just as I trust you know that fiscal policy is not the sole province of the House.
Ill get back on both the comments you made requiring lengthier responses later.
Not everyone is so knowledgeable and this stuff is difficult enough for laypeople.
My degree is in political science too, only a B.A. with extensive practical experience in the local realm. Would you like some fries with that?
No just a trip on the New York subways. But seriously, people here are pretty sophisticated, and generally know the basics of how our government works, even if they may often differ on how it must work from a practical point of view. This is especially true of the active bloggers. So, what I’m saying is, it’s better to assume that people know the basics than it is to presume to teach those to them.
You didn’t answer my question, letsgetitdone. You very specifically said the government could “just print what it needs” in order to pay off the national debt. I asked, “why not do it right now?”
So — assuming you’re right — why not do it right now?
Oh, sorry Grumpy. Since we can, in principle, pay it off when we want to, why would we care about doing so? Is the debt intrinsically bad?
On the other hand, if people really became upset with it, we might start paying down substantial portions of it gradually, perhaps over 20 years, watching the international economic system for reactions as we go.
You are joking with me, right? The debt is meaningless because we can just print piles of money and hand it out to whoever we owe at face value?
What do you suppose a gallon of milk will cost the next day? $49.95?
Milk is a domestic product. Even much more substantial Government spending than we have now won’t drive up its price too much. Also, remember the context of my argument. If there’s inflation, then we back off the printing, and do some taxation of the wealthy to withdraw money from the system. But since demand is seriously slack right now, inflation is not something we have to worry about.
Yes, but political and economic constraints limit the ability of government to do this, whether to preserve the current system or to prevent a crash landing.
If the government printed the money or was known to prepare to print the money, or offer up $10t in credit out of thin air to pay off the debt, then the US would essentially be isolated from the international financial system until it put its house back into order and was viewed as a trustworthy party to an agreement.
The debate here is not so much about deficits and debt as about priorities. So long as the people who have priorities to orient the economy around the military industrial and FIRE economic sectors, then everything needed to tend to them is a necessity, and the things that the other 290,000,000 of us need are luxuries. The deficit debate is the proxy for that distinction.
The best way to change those priorities to reflect those of most Americans is to build sustained grass roots pressure to elect folks to office and hold them accountable. There is a broad populist case to be made to everyone left of the 25% of tea baggers that transcends left and right to move us past the brutality of the reverence for an unfettered free market economy towards one that invests in our people first. Here is an example from Kent Conrad and Byron Dorgan’s state of a Public Option for credit. If can work in Fargo, then it can work everywhere.
Once we change the political priorities, we might be able to coerce a change in the economic priorities. Confronted with that kind of organized pressure and a Wall Street further weakened by the commercial real estate implosion, Obama would be malleable.
I think this is a very good reply and I agree that the sort of movement you suggest is necessary. However, I also want to emphasize that for that movement to be successful in changing priorities, the ideology of deficit hawkism has to be exposed for the fallacy that it is.
For that to happen people have to see that Government deficits are not like the debts that they owe to other people, and that there is no danger of their Government becoming insolvent because it decides to spend a lot of money on re-inventing the economy, creating alternative energy industries, fixing our infrastructure, educating our people, and so on. For that to happen people have to see that the national debt is a matter of accounting and not a material condition that will impoverish their grandchildren.
YOU KNOW THE BEST WHY TO SOLVE THE DEBT AND DEFICIT PROBLEM?
PUT THE COUNTRY BACK TO WORK.
Right. But to put the country back to work one needs a jobs program, the size of which probably needs to be at least another $ One Trillion. Deficit Hawkism is in the way of that jobs program.
Also, the BND model of a public option for household, commercial and public finance is an important component to any progressive financial reform. Since it does come from the heartland, and it is quite successful, that could serve as a template.
I’d like to see this too.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agLkrj4ZwFTw&pos=4
Yes, I’ve been following what Roubini has to say about the coming collapse. His credibility is very high since he, among others, predicted the first one.
As you can see in the current G20 coverage, the US is the outlier on regulation and will need to be dragged kicking and screaming into it if at all.
Geithner, Brown Split on Tobin Tax at Group of 20 Meeting
FSB Says Some Big Banks Still Too Optimistic on Their Health
The sane capitalist nations will probably erect firewalls to insulate their economies from our casino, which I’m sure that our high priests of free market sharia will deride as protectionism.
If the posture of resistance and political support system for it that we see now does not change, then the chances for pulling back on the stick before controlled descent into terrain become smaller and smaller.
True.