Absent a substantial change in direction by Congressional Leadership and the President, I think it’s time to do whatever progressives can to kill the health care reform legislation currently moving through Congress, and then to immediately reset to Medicare for All, single payer.
As HR 3962 bill sits now, it’s worse than no bill at all, and the Senate and Conference versions are likely to make a final bill still worse. If so, that bill will destroy progressive and Democrat credibility by associating us once again with reforms that don’t solve problems, and corporate interests, in opposition to the American people.
Very few evaluations of the emerging reform bill talked about what it is likely to do in the interim “band-aid period” between now and 2013, probably 3.5 long years until the exchange is ready, as if that didn’t matter in evaluating the bill. Many have said that the bill as written would cover 36 million additional people, and cite CBO for that figure. But, that won’t happen for years, and I don’t think CBO’s estimate takes into account the inflation we’ll see in insurance premium costs during the band-aid period and thereafter. By 2013 alone, we can expect a 40-50% increase in those costs. In the years following that, the increase should be similar, and what will these increases do to CBO’s forecast of the number of additional people who will take insurance? 36 million covered seems very unlikely to me without a complete revision of the income/subsidy table.
Even before the fully operational date in 2013 however, how many additional people are likely to be covered? I’ve estimated here, that over the band-aid period perhaps 16,000,000 of the currently uninsured would sign up for the high risk pool. In rough terms, that still leaves us with 31,000,000 uncovered. and roughly an estimate of 31,000 annual fatalities due to lack of insurance, or roughly 108,000 fatalities between now and then. This doesn’t count the toll from the millions of bankruptcies and huge numbers of foreclosures still to be expected because this bill doesn’t solve those problems either.
Pure and simple, given the above expected outcomes for the band-aid period, this is an immoral bill, and it is so because it is inadequate to end the fatality, bankruptcy, and foreclosure problems resulting from the health insurance non-system. This issue is beyond pragmatism. It is beyond expediency. It is beyond cleverness. It is a clear moral issue. The Democrats have had the opportunity to solve these problems with Medicare for All, their response with this laughable bill that they call “a historic achievement,” signals the moral bankruptcy of the Democratic Party.
Some people have acknowledged that what is shaping up is a bad bill, but that it’s not realistic to try to defeat it in the Senate. One of these people is Jane Hamsher. I’ll consider a few of Jane’s arguments culled from recent exchanges occurring in the context of one of her diaries.
Jane says:
“Here in the real world, your choice is between a) this bill with a public plan, or b) this bill without a public plan, or public plan with triggers, or a public plan with an opt-out.”
This is not strictly true. I can’t choose any of these things. What I can do, is to do what I can to support one of these alternatives, or others Jane didn’t list just above including the option of killing this bill. Now, my influence, even in joining with others is pretty small. So why ought I to support any of these three options, since I think they are all bad choices?
Of course, Jane thinks that these are the only options with any chance of being realized, and so it makes the most sense to choose the least of evils. But I don’t agree with this, because I don’t think that killing this bill is impossible — not with 40 Republicans in the Senate willing to kill it, and Harry Reid seemingly unwilling to use either reconciliation, or the nuclear option to pass a bill with less than 60 votes. In particular, If Bernie Sanders filibusters this bill it’s gone. If Jay Rockefeller joins him, it’s gone. If Al Franken decides he’s had enough, it’s gone. If Roland Burris goes through with his stated opposition to a bill without a robust PO, it’s gone.
There are a number of possible votes in the Senate that could kill this, and a number of pressure points we can use to try to kill it. Even if we fail in the Senate, we can go back to the House again, and see if we can pick up those 14 – 20 votes that would kill it in the final floor vote. We may fail in both those things, but right now I don’t think that even with our support, the probability of getting a PO in the Senate that is even as as good as the House’s, is any better, and it may be lower than the probability that we can help to kill this bill.
So my choice, in answer to Jane’s question, is to do the best I can to get progressives to deny Democrats the votes in the House and Senate they will need to finally pass this bill, and to try and get a few progressives in the Senate to filibuster it in hopes that they and the Republicans can defeat it. This is worth doing because, for reasons stated above, this is a very bad bill that I don’t want the Democrats and the progressives to be tagged with responsibility for.
I’d rather that Democrats be blamed for failure to pass any health care reform right now. Obama and the blue dogs will then be faced with defeat in 2010. Then next year, progressives can try again to push health care reform in the right way, by advocating for HR 676, and threatening to vote against any deviations from it. Then let’s see what Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and the blue dogs do, when their backs are against the wall.
And in another reply Jane says:
“1) Do Democrats have a majority in the House & Senate and control of the White House?
2) Do you think this bill would be better without a public option?”
Of course, the Democrats have a majority. They have 58 votes, in fact. But that doesn’t mean that they can surely pass this bill, because unless they can get both Lieberman and Sanders, two Senators diametrically opposed on the PO, they won’t have the super-majority they need for cloture. They can pass it without a super-majority. They can use reconciliation or the nuclear option. I think that progressive Senators who feel strongly about the PO and, perhaps, in a few cases, even Medicare for All, should make the Democrats do that, if only to weaken the filibuster and blue dog control over liberal legislation more generally.
Moving to the second question, I think the bill would be better with no PO, than it would be with a lousy PO. Why?
Simply because the absence of a PO, provides a much better basis for future political action supporting Medicare for All, than a bill that has a clearly inadequate PO, because the opponents of reform will just tell everyone looking for further reform and Medicare for All, that everyone should wait and see how this wonderful PO, that progressives and Democrats fought so hard for, will work.
We have to remember that the idea of the PO has been oversold from the beginning, and since the “bait-and-switch” tactics of Democrats, HCAN, and other "veal pen" organizations have accelerated, more and more outrageous claims have been made for the version of the PO in bills “on the table,” until lately Alan Grayson has been saying that Nancy Pelosi’s wonderful House bill is going to end the fatalities due to lack of insurance. After all the claims they’ve made to get this PO passed, if they succeed, the Democrats are not about to back off those claims and admit that the bill with the PO is one that needs to be greatly strengthened before 2013, because it won’t end the deaths, bankruptcies and foreclosures, as they promised in 2009.
No, passing a bill with a terribly weak PO now, will set the Democrats, and the American people, up perfectly for waiting until roughly 2015 to get anything better. And if the Democrats try to come back again next year to improve the bill, the Republicans and the blue dogs will remind them of their lies and will tell them “give the bill a chance to work. No health care reform again until at least 2015 when we’ll know a little more about how things are working.”
On the other hand, if we succeed in killing this bill because it’s lousy, or even if we weaken the Democrats enough that they can’t get the weak PO in the bill, then progressives can immediately come back with a vengeance and run against the bill that passes, saying that it won’t do the job and advocating again for Medicare for All, single-payer.
In yet another reply Jane offered:
“Here’s the world of options:
1) Try to kill the bill entirely. Which I do not believe will be successful, but anybody who wants to is welcome to try. If I thought we could do it, we would. And if there’s a movement in the House to do that, we’ll support it.
2) Try to make sure a public option stays in the Senate bill.
3) Give up and let Lieberman strip a public option out of the bill.
Which of these do you support? I really should put up a poll.”
I’d say try 1), and if that doesn’t work, then throw our weight behind both 3) and also stripping the mandates and the exchange out of the bill too, leaving only the other elements in. That would be a victory for the Democrats, since it would improve the situation, save some lives, bankruptcies, and foreclosures, in the short run, without compromising future attempts, as early as 2010, to move the system toward Medicare for All, single payer.
And in yet another reply Jane also says:
“Do you think the bill will be stronger with it out? That’s the only question before us. Yes or no.”
The answer is above. It would be better without the lousy PO we have a chance of passing now, and even better if we can use the lack of a PO to strip out the mandates.
This has been a long diary, and I apologize for it. But I think the discussion merited it, and I also think that Jane’s arguments need a very direct response that confronts both her logic and her assessment of the chances of getting certain things done. Again, I think progressives should now support defeating the bills that have emerged from the House and are likely to emerge from the Senate, and after that is done, I think we should immediately switch to Medicare for All, single-payer advocacy and only that, and follow the pattern that libbyliberal has called for.
Let’s make this a a human rights movement and let’s confront the “murder by spreadsheet,” the annual fatalities, the bankruptcies, the foreclosures, and the fundamental inhumanity of the insurance non-system as a moral issue that we will not compromise on. If the Administration and the Democrats will come along with us on this, well and good; but if they insist on continuing to follow their business as usual, bail-out the insurance companies course, then let us fight them, and end both this morally corrupt administration and the existence of the morally bankrupt political party that spawned it, and that now does its bidding.



260 Comments

Like I have said before untill the people are willing to clean hosue in the congress, things will only get worse.
We keep hoping switching parties and people will fix things, and get more of the same.
Our Governemnt no longer works, our two parties no longer work for us, and we have lost control of our government to the big money interests.
We should be out to replace both parties, and the sooner the better.
But as I also have said the American people believe they have the best even though what they have is division that keeps things from getting done. Yet they support it fully, and aren’t willing to put the effort out to fix it.
I don’t comment often, but I feel compelled to now because I so strongly agree with this diary.
It seems to me that the bill that is likely to be hatched–one with a very weak public option, along with mandates–will decimate the progressive cause because it’s going to anger so many and satisfy so few. It is a dangerous, dangerous gamble at this point.
I would do what I can to promote the position taken here: Kill the “health care reform” aspects of the bill (public option, mandates, the exchange, etc.) and retain the “insurance reform” aspects that many have argued would be hard for those in congress to vote against: an end to 1) pre-existing condition exclusions, 2) the termination of policy holders who become ill, and 3) lifetime maximums on insurance payouts.
The education of the American people on this issue has begun, and I believe that single payer can be the ultimate prize if Democrats and progressives use what has already been done as a springboard to what is next. Beat the Medicare-for-All drum long and hard in every future campaign, starting in 2010. Do everything possible to exploit the natural antagonism between health care consumers and the insurance industry. Little has been done in this area to date; it is incredibly fertile ground.
At the same time, target senior citizens and educate them to the idea that Medicare as they know it will be undermined unless it is expanded to include everyone.
I believe it would be much easier to sell the idea of Medicare for All than it has been to promote the bastardized health reform proposal that is now limping towards passage.
Yeah, we can do better. We pretty much have to.
“Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.) pledged on Tuesday that he would kill health care reform legislation if his anti-abortion amendment is taken out.
“They’re not going to take it out,” Stupak said on Fox News. “If they do, health care will not move forward … We won fair and square.” ”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/17/stupak-ill-kill-bill-if-a_n_361309.html
Agree. Let Stupak kill it.
thanks lets. i appreciate seeing your careful thinking laid out so clearly.
Seems to me you’re not disagreeing all that strongly. LGID mentioned the option you describe above as his second best choice after killing the bill.
My preference in the first instance is to agitate in favor of Ron Wyden’s efforts to open up the Exchange to all Americans (no deal, though, if the Exchange lacks a PO), along with other provisions listed at the end of this diary. The dealbreaker, though, is universal Exchange/PO accessibility. Short of that, I’d opt for stripping the PO, Exchange, and mandates and passing the rest. Short of which, maybe, killing the bill outright.
I’m still leery of killing the bill; I think powerful forces will align to prevent progressives from seizing the moment.
I don’t get the killing the bill idea. You’re right to bring up the uninsured and underinsured between now and 2013 as a moral issue. I have no idea how killing a bill fixes that problem.
I hope they’re beginning to realize that they need to put in that effort. If Obama keeps going along the same path he’ll be reaching Bush levels of unpopularity within a year.
Thanks OutWest, I strongly agree with your comment. On Medicare for All and messaging you may be interested in these:
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/6833
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/6912
And on splitting up the “reform” into separate bills and following an enhanced “Medicare for All” strategy see this one.
I hope you don’t mind the additional references to my own previous diaries.
Yep, letting people with pre-existing conditions die will be a great victory for progressives?
Please. There’s refusal to compromise and then there’s blind ideological purity. People’s lives are at stake; we don’t have time for this kind of academic gamesmanship. We need to fight to get whatever we can done and not just take our ball and go home because we can’t get more.
He’s dreaming. They’re going to wordsmith language to narrow its application. He can then say: “they didn’t take it,” and the progressives can say “we took it out.”
My personal view is that I shouldn’t be forced to pay for the War in Afghanistan, so the Federal Government shouldn’t be allowed to fund that war, just like they can’t fund abortions. The conservatives who like it so much can form a neo-con association to fund it.
Barack Oboover will be a one term president. Just my opinion, but I’m guessing this shitty bill will pass, people will be shocked from their slumber by skyrocketing premiums, litigation will ensue over the mandates and the Democrats will be blamed for making the problem worse.
I think progressives ought to make clear that even though Stupak is terrible, they’re killing it because even without Stupak it’s a terrible bill. They need to oppose it on grounds that it’s Medicare for All and will continue to allow 31,000 fatalities, numerous bankruptcies, and numerous foreclosures annually, and then they ought to say that it is unpatriotic to say that “the richest country in the world,” can afford health care that is as good as the citizens of France and Canada get.
Thanks selise, This is a bit of a reworking of a comment I made on Jane’s recent Kucinich post. I just cleaned up the language a bit.
Hi Ralph, I’m talking about killing the bill as is. If people want to get something like the kind of regulatory bill mentioned by OutWest and myself, I’m certainly for passing that. However, to get that, progressives may have to show that they will vote no on the monstrosity first. If that happened I suspect the leadership and the Administration, Clintonite as they are, will be back within a matter of days with a minimalist bill that they can claim is at least a small victory.
It doesn’t fix that problem. The only thing killing this bill fixes is our continued ability to try to solve the problem of leaving 31,000 annual fatalities, the bankruptcies, and the continued foreclosures on the table for early next year. On the other hand, if we pass this bill, we’re finished for a few years at least, and maybe until 2015. That’s where the immorality comes in. After this exhausting fight for an hcr bill and the celebration of victory and what it means by the Democrats if the bill passes. It won’t be credible to push the need for further reform until we can show that this one is failing. And the Democrats will fight us every step of the way on that, since they will have voted for it.
It’s not that taking half-a-loaf on something is wrong, or necessarily “selling out.” It’s that if you take half-a-loaf in such a way that you can’t ask for the rest of it any time soon, you will have forgone the immediate future. If this bill fails you can come back screaming at the insurance companies and the blue dogs on Day 1, and as the pressure build from the insurance companies’ own bad behavior the case for real reform becomes even more compelling. But if you pass this thing, if you acquiesce with celebration, rather than being dragged kicking and screaming to a vote that you keep on insisting is only the first step in a long and continuing quest for health insurance, and just the lesser of evils, then you give up your leverage to come back next year and, I think in any year prior to 2013. People will just say to you, “you voted for 2013, now shut up at least until this is operative in 2013.”
Thanks, lets. I’ve been saying variations on, and pieces of this for some time, but never as eloquently.
Additionally:
And, if you pass this Frankenstein, you/we [Democrats/progressives] also get the anvil of its many bad features hung around your/our neck for decades to come: mandates, no cost controls, no Medicare bargaining with drug companies, extending drug company patents.
The mandates + no costs controls in particular are going to bite working families, if not in the ass, at least in the paycheck, and every time they glance at the “deductions” portion of their check and see a huge hunk of $$$ going for continuingly worthless “insurance,” they are going to be pissed AT DEMOCRATS who brought them this.
So, after some soul-searching, I have to agree with this.
LGID and selise and crew have done a good job in showing why the PO is far from perfect. They make the case, however, that it is worse than nothing, and on that point I think I have to disagree.
All the analysis you guys have done has shown how weak and anemic the PO will be, how few it will cover, etc. But the point is that *some* people will get much-needed health care as a result. *Some* people will not go bankrupt, and *some* people will not die.
The counter-argument in this article is that it will be *politically costly* to pass this bill. In other words, people might not like the bill, and will remember that progressives were pushing so hard for it. Worse, this bill might be used to sour folks to true single payer in the future. All true statements, and all irrelevant.
The bottom line is that you simply cannot weigh lives against political victory. Even if you consider the lives that single payer would save (and I don’t doubt that a true, robust Medicare-for-all plan would be a huge boon), it’s simply *not on the table*, nor will it be any time soon.
So arguing that we should kill this bill because it will be politically inconvenient to the progressive cause, because it might cause problems for SP in the future, IS, in fact, just a form of forcing ideological purity at any cost. And the cost, at this point, is lives. Maybe not so many, maybe just a few hundred lives a year would be saved by the current weak-sauce PO. But I cannot, in good conscience, militate for killing the bill just because it would hurt future chances for single payer, if it will result in lives lost today.
So, much as it pains me, much as I will have to hold my nose to support it, I agree with kyeo’s sentiment; we need to get the best bill we can manage right now and stop the hemorrhaging, and not waste time quibbling about the color of the bandages.
Guys, I want single payer too, but let’s be brutally honest: it is not going to happen, at a federal level, at any time within the next 10-20 years. And during that time, if we do nothing and the statistics are correct, somewhere between a half million and almost a million people might *die* due to the current broken system we have. That’s simply too high of a cost for me to seriously consider doing nothing (which is what killing this bill in favor of single payer, on a progressive front is likely to do).
Now that we’ve discussed what we (progressives) likely CAN’T do (get single payer at the federal level), let’s discuss what we CAN do. I think that there’s real potential behind a STATE level single payer plan; IE, the amendment that got shot down (forget who sponsored it, Kucinich maybe?) to allow states to “opt out” of private insurance. This is a sneaky, sneaky, clever idea — let individual states enact single payer. Add one more item to the mix — exempt them from any laws that would prevent multiple states from *pooling* their single payer systems — and you have the makings of “backdoor single payer.” We progressives simply don’t (and likely won’t) have the political clout to get single payer in through the front door. But maybe we could twist enough arms and call enough favors to open the back door…?
kyeo, We agree that people’s lives are at stake. Specifically, there are 45,000 lives at stake per year. You want to pass a bill that will save roughly 14,000 of those lives and leave 31,000 per year to die. And to do this while bleating that “the perfect is the enemy of the good” or a similar platitude. I want to keep fighting to get all 45,000 saved annually. You think I’m being ideologically pure and practicing academic gamesmanship by wanting to continue to fight. I think you’re being immoral by accepting this bill, and with it the prospects of saving those other 31,000 any time soon.
You can label what I say as much as you want, but, really, the morality here is determined by an issue of fact, not by ideology and not by academic gamesmanship. If the bill is killed, is that the end of hcr for the foreseeable future, or can we come back very soon even stronger? I think we can come back stronger in the next few months, and get something that will be operational long before 2013, and also save the 45,000 annually, because the leadership and the Administration will be scared shitless if they lose on hcr. And since they believe so strongly that “the perfect is the enemy of the good,” they will offer progressives a much better deal next time. And the deal will get better, the closer we get to the elections of 2010.
If I’m right about that, then passing a bill that won’t be fully operative until 2013, that can’t be changed again for some years, and that will leave us with 31,000 fatalities annually until then, and 11,000 per year afterwards is clearly immoral, since we can have a much better outcome if we’re willing to be tougher.
Finally, I have to say that I don’t understand where ideological purity or academic gamesmanship is in all this. What’s “ideological” about insisting on ending health insurance fatalities, bankruptcies, and foreclosures? Or is it that you think that “insisting” on anything is “Ideological.”
I think the ideology stuff is on your side. Specifically, your view reflects the ideology of short-run (Clintonite?) pragmatism which basically says “in any conflict, take whatever you can get. Don’t worry about what this means for the future. Don’t worry about the morality of what your doing. Just do something, anything, and then get on to the next (mindless?) compromise (so they can roll you again?).”
Don’t you see how “ideological” this is, especially in the hands of Rahm, and Obama? It is the ideology they use to cow and defeat the progressives, who, evidently, are afraid of nothing so much as being called “ideological” and “impractical,” by those great masters of the “practical,” who have taken most of this year to get a health care bill to a vote in Congress, Rahm and Obama.
I think so too. Most people don’t understand what’s in the present bill and Deomocrats like Alan Grayson (here and here) have been overselling HR 3962. So when people find out what it really does and doesn’t do, they’re going to get awfully angry. Then the Democrats will hem and haw and say that they couldn’t do more because the Republicans were completely opposed to the bill. That excuse will go over like the proverbial lead balloon.
Yes, Mauimom, if the Dems pass this they’re toast in 2010. On really ironic thing about this whole process, is how little argument there was from progressives about Obama’s insistence that the bill ought to come with a CBO score of deficit neutrality, along with total expenditures under a trillion dollars or an average of $100 per year over 10 years. This bias toward deficit hawkism in the health care area when we didn’t demand that for re-inflating the financial system balloon, for the wars, or for the tax cuts in past years, showed both his priorities and where he stood on a more progressive and comprehensive bill. The fact that progressives in Congress accepted that limitation without protest, is one of the fatal pre-compromises they made in this process; the other was letting “Medicare for All” be taken off the table.
That’s the thing. Killing this bill, given the legislative process, means you won’t see another version coming up for a vote at least until 2012.
Democrats have been working on this specific bill for at least two years, if not since health care was defeated in 1994. To get another bill worked up, groups to back it, through committees, passed, and signed is another two years at the very very least, probably longer by at least a few years. And that’s even if single payer were able to get 50+1 votes in the Senate, not to mention 60.
So, I respect the issue you’re raising, but your solution makes no headway to solving it.
amen. i completely agree with you on this.
just to be clear, because maybe it’s not, this is most definitely NOT my position (or as far as i can tell, is it anyone’s position here). i think we are all agreed on this point — if there is anything i’ve written, or write in the future, to give you the impression i think otherwise, please let me know.
maybe it comes from my perspective that the fight for universal healthcare is a long term social movement (and not just a short term legislative battle)? so i do see the benefit of trying to think multiple steps ahead – but never ever to put the political games ahead of lives. just the opposite.
…..
anyway, i will argue that if you think the bill does more harm than good, we should call for it’s defeat (regardless of our chances for success). but if you think the bill does more good than bad, and it’s not because we disagree on any of the details/facts or have different goals — but rather just honestly come to different conclusions, i’m going to support your activism for the bill, even if i disagree with you.
imo, there is a benefit to arguing out all the details, tactics and strategy because i learn a lot from that process. and in the end, even though we may come to different conclusions, if we are working as i think we are, for the same goal, universal healthcare, then imo we are on the same side.
here’s to solidarity in difference and to success in our shared goals.
if the bill is a bad one, if it does more harm than good, if it entrenches and empowers the corporate interests that we are going to have to really take on to get to universal healthcare, it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference how long the dems have worked on the current bill.
Hi ourobourous, You said:
I think you misunderstand. Of course, I don’t like the fact that the bill will result in Democratic defeats, but I would never set avoiding a political defeat as more important than saving lives that would not otherwise be saved.
My main point was not that it would be politically costly for progressives, but that it would involve foregoing any chance in the near future of getting further hcr.
If this bill made the reform operative by the fall of next year, I’d say it was worth passing because we could be back by 2011 talking to people about its shortcomings and about what more we have to do to end the remaining fatalities, bankruptcies, and foreclosures. Of course, that possibility was negated by the Administration’s insistence, accepted by the progressives that the bill be deficit neutral and not exceed $1 trillion in cost over ten years. This another place where “deficit hawkism” on vital issues is killing people.
The band-aid period between now and 2103 will cost 108,000 more lives and I think that’s a generous estimate on my part. Sure, some would be saved compared to doing nothing at all. But I don’t think for a minute that if this bill fails now that reform is dead. I’m saying that the fight will go on and that we can get rid of the band-aid period and that expectation of losing the 108,000 lives. Killing the bill, and postponing passing it by say six months will cost 7,000 lives. But if we could pass a better bill that would face and solve the fatalities problem, we could save 101,000 lives, over an alternative scenario of passing something like HR 3962 now.
I don’t share your view on how long Medicare for All will take to enact, and I also think that the period until we get it or some other solution that extracts the profit and exorbitant overhead out of the insurance industry depends very much on what we do now. Again, one of the reasons why I don’t want to pass this bill, as it is is that I think it probably will delay further debate on Medicare for All until 2015. This is not an academic difference. It is a difference that will cost many lives.
I do agree that the present bill will be improved by removing some of the barriers to State Level medicare for All. However, I also think that we should not exaggerate what that would mean. If any State wants to pass Medicare for All in the context of a bill like HR 3962, would the citizens of that State be exempted from taxes needed to support HR 3962? Would those States get Federal payments to underwrite their Medicare for All programs in lieu of the subsidies their citizens would otherwise have gotten from the exchange-based program? I think the answer to both those questions is no. So, I wonder what kind of stomach a revenue-starved State will have to enact, and have its citizens pay the cost of, “Medicare for All,” when they’re already paying their fair share of the costs of the national exchange and its PO that is not covered by premium payments?
I said “$100,” of course I meant $100 billion per year.
I don’t agree at all Jason.
Congress can move much, much faster, if it thinks it needs to. If this bill fails it will need to do a new one. Thinking through variations has now occurred. If the progressives tank this bill, everyone will know that it’s because of the constrained eligibility PO, the band-aid period, inadequate subsidies, the Stupak language, the negotiated rather than medicare- based rates, along with the inability to use Medicare providers if the providers decide to “opt-out.”
I think a bill that fixed these things could be written by Pelosi and Reid using the previous committee results inside of two weeks. And with reconciliation, one could be passed in a very short time. The problem is that Reid won’t use either reconciliation or the nuclear option. But if the Dems are up against the wall he will do things like that.
I agree with very much on this way of putting it.
ding, ding, and a ding.
the ‘pragmatism’ excuse can be trotted out for any occasion. There may be some who advocate it with honesty, but in the hands of corrupt, corporatized (D) Leaders, it is simply a honed, deceptive PR strategy, used as cover to implement pre-conceived policies that are inimical to the long-suffering ‘Base.’
Like keeping the U.S. military occupying foreign lands to fight ‘instability’ – this sort of Washington D.C. conventional wisdom is not held in high regard by most at FDL.
Because, the counterargument goes, the U.S. military is the cause of the instability, and the stated goals are not being furthered after 8 years, many Progressives can comfortably advocate for some major strategic revision. So, why not in the Health Care debate, Veal Pen message discipline notwithstanding?
Well, almost 30 years of pragmatist pre-compromising is a major factor in allowing our dire, deadly, costly, wasteful, distorted health care system get as bad as it is, so those with a sense of history and a sense of how terrible the current bill is are correct to argue to kill the bill, and then come back and ask for what we really want.
Moral causes do not have to resort to deception and obfuscation, censorship and avoidance, all very much in evidence in (D) reform salesmanship. Its refreshing! Some of the salaried policy wonks should try it sometime.
sorta related: lets, i put a bunch of info from the latest cms report on the decrease in medicare (house bill) in the comments of another thread. thought you might be interested:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/17/health-care-bill-to-drop-tomorrow/#comment-4697
Christ on a bike. Seriously, what Congress do you guys think you’re dealing with? We practically have to bust a collective hernia to get them to include a weak-ass public option. What makes you think this particular group of politicians is going to come back and pass the far more radical idea of single-payer in a year or two? I’m all for ignoring conventional wisdom, but ignoring the reality on the ground is something else altogether.
Oh yeah, and fuck you for saying I’m “immoral” because I want health care passed. You want to disagree with me about the bill, fine. But how dare you fling insults and slurs at me because I’m working towards the same goal you are and just happen to disagree with your approach to it. Kiss my ass, you fucking high-handed demagogue.
Yeah, couldn’t disagree more. I think this line of reasoning shows a severe deficit of understanding of how the process works. I’ll concede that the process isn’t always done this way, but you’ve offered no thinking on why after tanking this bill Congress would take up something *more* progressive, or why those who voted against this bill in the House, for example, would be inclined to vote for something better. We only won by two votes, remember. That doesn’t look like a lot of wiggle room to me…
Thanks spork. You know I agree in spades.
Thanks selise. Of course, I am.
Let’s not charge each other with severe deficits of understanding of how things work, since arguably the whole HCAN/PO strategy is an object lesson of lack of understanding of how things work in the real world.
On offering thinking about why people would move to a more progressive bill after defeat of this one, I certainly did offer views on this. First, they’d do it because they MUST have a bill. And second, they’d do it because the only way to get one would be to give the progressives more of what they want.
Stupak got what he wanted because he bluffed Pelosi. But he was bluffing. If Pelosi had made him go through with it, the storm that would have rained down on him and the others would have quickly switched them around, and allowed pelosi to take another vote a week later. Put simply, she blinked.
On the other hand, if the progs hold fast and defeat the bill, their constituencies would view them in a favorable light and would support their efforts to get a better bill.
Look, Reid and Pelosi are despised by many Democrats as spineless compromisers, and the blue dogs are viewed as not being Dems at all. That’s the context of this. And it means that if we back them against the wall, we win and they lose. That’s the real world, according to me. Your realist strategy of compromising until there’s nothing left worth fighting for is just a fantasy for people who have bought into “the perfect is the enemy of the good” ideology.
Well kyeo,
Among other things I said:
And you replied:
I certainly didn’t curse at you, or use slurs or demagoguery. I didn’t even say you were “immoral,” I said that was my judgment. I don’t assert that it’s necessarily right, only that it’s what I think. You had no hesitation in labeling what I think as “academic gamesmanship” and “ideological purity.” How come you get to label me, but I don’t get to label you? At least my labeling was based on my previous analysis which said that the bill, as it stands, is immoral because of the band-aid period in it and its consequences in allowing so many fatalities, bankruptcies, and foreclosures to continue. I’m sorry you resent that moral judgment, but I think I’m quite within my rights to make it without exceeding the bounds of civility.
Finally, if you wish to avoid name-calling matches in the future, perhaps you ought to be more circumspect in trying to marginalize people by labeling their views “ideologically pure,” and “academic gamesmanship.” I’m not one who takes kindly to turning the other cheek.
some guy named Jason, 2008:
Stick a fork in it, buddy. Nothing I said to you lays people’s deaths at your feet, and your half-assed qualifications don’t make your smears any less palatable. You’re much more interested in denying reality, demonizing people who disagree with you, and clutching your pearls every time someone uses some four-letter words than having a serious conversation on how to affect change. When you get off that hangup, then we’ll talk. Until then, I’m done.
You’re still not answering the question. Why, after a bill dies, would anyone take up a more progressive version? I understand that your argument is, well, progressives killed it, so they’re the ones who’ll get to call the shots. This is not the way it would work.
Even *if* progressives kill the bill in the House, you still have no plan to get something more progressive in the Senate. Given that the plan we’re moving right now will likely just barely pass the Senate, what incentive do centrist Senators have to pass a more progressive bill, and not pass something even more watered down in their body?
As for what we’ve got going now, we’ve got a bill that will make health care affordable, cover a vast number of uninsured, and give us a public option. It’s a bill that’s popular with America, and one that can pass. I’m not sure why it’s so bad, but no matter.
Fact is, there is no political incentive to pick up something more progressive just because progressives killed something. Blue Dogs kill bills because they want them to stay dead, and when they can’t kill something, they’ll take a deal that makes it weaker. If progressives want the same power, they need to kill bills they’d like to see dead, and health care, given your argument, isn’t one of them, because, as you and I both agree, progressives want health care reform.
So, what’s the strategy? How do you get the votes for single payer? Or the most robust PO you can think of? How do you get 50+1 Senators? Or 218 House members? What are your vote counts? Where are the pressure points? Is leadership on board?
So, how many lives do we save in 2010 and 2011 if this bill is passed? The answer is, not many at all because the PO insurance part doesn’t kick in until 2013. There is really no reason that we should wait at all, except that 2013 is (1) after the presidential election and (2) this delay reduces the “price” of medical costs to make it “revenue neutral.” The way I see it, we ought to support a bill with prohibitions on recision and pre-existing conditions clauses now, but without a PO that doesn’t kick-in in earnest until 2015 anyway. In the interim then, we no longer are subject to the criticism that somehow we are costing lives by delaying reform, and Obama-Rahma gets credit for passing an HCR bill. Then, immediately after passing the bill, the house should move to clamp significant price controls on the insurance industry because they have protection under Anti-trust exemption. The former is justified by the latter. Admittedly, this is the weakest part of the scheme, because we all know that the congress is in the tank to the health care industry. But, there is certainly an argument to be made with regard to the implications of anti-trust protection. Then, we start-up a huge campaign to pressure the BlueDogs and conservative Democratic Senators to pass a real PO program at the time of the actual elections. They think they can ford this whole mess by passing a bill now and then never turning back to it as an issue. And passing a bill now in its current form exceeds the wildest dreams of the insurance industry. Many conservative Democrats won’t get re-elected unless they support a PO because the base will leave them, leaving just enough room for their defeat. The BlueDogs will be driven to support a PO by the polls. The current PO program in the house and the even weaker one that will arise from conference is really not worth passing. The reason we haven’t gotten even further with a strong PO is that the elections are still too far off to measure the real impacts of opposing a PO by individual members of the Democratic Party. In fact, passing the bill now with a Bait-and-swithc PO creates a stumbling block to reform by generating the illusion that significant HCR has already occurred, obviating any need for additional legislation. If liberals ever expect to get real reform in this country they will have to be serious about walking away from the deal, otherwise we will ride in the back of the bus like we have been doing since 1976. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m going to pick myself up and walk up to the front of the bus and demand a seat.
That’s the way it looks according to every analysis I’ve seen. Obama and the dogs need “a bill, any bill” more than the progressives do.
If they could only for once find a backbone, kill this thing, and then sytematically turn the “purity” argument around: “Why are you against real reform? It has to be anti-public ideology. Unless you’re just corrupt.”
As for the alleged law of physics that everything has to move oh so very slowly, that’s simply a self-fulfilling ideological fiction propagated by status quo ideologues. Congress at any time moves exactly as fast as it wants to or needs to. Only ideological purity claims otherwise.
Jason, how does the House Bill make health care cheaper when the PO is not based on some multiplier of Medicare rates?
Or, it just might be that you are the one demonizing people by claiming that killing the bill will cost peoples lives. The battle is not over, even though many of you are beginning to accept the loss. There is a huge amount of time before much of the health care bill will kick in, by design. We have a lot of time to fight this, but many of you are caving, just as is typical of a certain part of the liberal base of the Democratic Party, I think they are called Progressives. Go on, go back to end of the bus where all liberals in the Democratic Party belong when important legislation must be passed. Will progressives ever get tired of this scenario?
For one, the PO isn’t the only thing that lowers costs. However, take a look at the VA system. 8 million people in it, close to the number that would be in the public option. Its rates aren’t tied to anything. It pays some of the lowest drug prices in the country, lower than even Medicare in some instances. And it negotiates for those rates.
So how much money does the PO save in 2010 and 2011 and 2012? And, how much would the puny PO save in 10 years and why would we allow so many people to remain uninsured with this compromise? Also, since the bait-and-switch PO will likely be the repository for the sickest people and the pool of people will be miniscule compared to the large insurer plans, what negotiating power do you think it will actually have? My guess is, its rates will be even higher than the larger plans and I believe a number of people have made that observation. Drug prices, of course, are a different matter than overall health care insurance costs. Now, the VA has its own medical care system, right? That is a far different matter than an insurance exchange.
according to the independent cms report the po is expect to save something like $2 billion a year (that’s less than 1/1000th of our total national health expenditures — iow, bfd). on the other hand, the one thing the bill does do to “save” money is to decrease funding for medicare by over $100 billion / year or %10 (some of it makes sense — but there is a very large amount that does not). see my link @30.
no cost controls and the biggest “savings” looks bogus. this does not look like a good bill to me. this does not even look like an honest bill to me.
ymmv, would love to know what you think.
the vote counts in the house are 2 for the people and the rest for corporate interests. under current circumstances, i don’t think there is a winning strategy for savvy insider compromises and business as usual politics that get us a commitment to universal healthcare. i wish there was, but wishes don’t make things so.
every single major campaign for human rights in this country has depended on a grass roots social movement. and it’s really a shame that the democratic party elite and wannabes hate populism they can’t control. as john emerson says, “republican populism is fake, but democratic elitism is real.”
Your link @30 is several mouthfuls. I think I’ll take my time before I let you know what I think because I can read about 4 lines of government jargon before I gloss over. I do know that the current House Bill makes no sense in terms of cost savings. Unless we break out of the Democrat VS Republican superbowl game, we will have to wait for a system collapse before any positive change occurs. At least a few of us like a fight.
Nothing during 2010-2013, it isn’t set up yet. As for how much will it save, CBO says $25 billion, but, given the VA example – an entity that must negotiate rates and that has just about as many people in it as the CBO says the PO would have – those estimates seem very conservative.
That seems like a decent reading of history, though eventually you also have to pass a bill. Still, how are you going to build your movement? Who’s your leaders? What’s the message? Where do you start? How do you get a good amount of the country on board and activated?
Only a very few, and that will never be enough.
I’d love to believe that was true. Other than Seminal diaries, how else have you started building that ground game for 2013?
I think you hit the nail on the head precisely wrt my own personal objections.
I hate the current PO. I hate the messed-up process that produced it. I believe our political system is broken. And I’m furious that progressives and progressive ideals have so little respect and clout in government, when every lunatic teabagger can practically get his own Fox and Friends spinoff.
But that being said, things are what they are. We barely — BARELY — are hanging on to the weak-sauce public option as is. The political reality is that Congress is simply not going to pass single payer anytime soon, except via some really clever, sneaky method that basically disguises it. If we can barely win this fight — over the dead bodies of all of those who’ve died due to f-ed up insurance since, what, February or so — if we can *barely* win this fight, how on earth can anyone really expect that killing the bill and then trying again is going to produce a *MORE* progressive result? If anything, what will happen is that either no bill will be passed at all, or that we’ll get a massive corporate handout with NO public option AND mandates, ala the original Baucus bill.
I think that the disconnect here isn’t from predictions about how good this current bill is. It sucks, we all agree with that. Some of us think that it’s better than nothing and, as result, feel morally compelled to support it.
But the idea that defeating the current bill would lead to a *MORE* progressive bill is, I feel, extremely naive about the way politics currently works in DC.
I do not mean to start, or contribute to, any flame wars. As selise says, we’re all (hopefully) working towards the same thing, here. Heck, I don’t even care about universal health care, I just want a more humane, just system that doesn’t let 44,000 people slip through the cracks into the abyss every year *when we could prevent that*. If we fix or improve that through a public option, single payer, or a “goody bag” of reform, I frankly don’t care — I’m not wedded to one particular METHOD of solving the problem. I just want the problem itself fixed, and I think — I hope — that we all agree on that bottom line. This isn’t a cop-out or a soulless paean to “pragmatism uber alles,” it’s just pointing the finger at the REAL problem — 40k-plus people dying every year due to our broken system — and then trying to hash out the best, fastest, most cost-effective way to fix that problem.
Where we differ, I think, is in our analysis of what is politically feasible versus what we wish would happen.
Hopefully I stated that clearly; I’m at work so I don’t really have time to flesh out and edit my thoughts :)
Well, that’s an interesting take. I’m trying to absorb a lot of data here, so pardon me if I misunderstand.
You’re saying that since we won’t get a PO until 2013 (at best), it’s best to kill it now. To which I have to respond, why would our result at the next iteration be any different?
You say we should mount a campaign against Blue Dogs etc. to get them to support a better PO, but I’m skeptical about how effective this would be if we *didn’t have a current bill on the agenda*. Right now, what’s driving alot of the progressive push for the current (weak sauce) PO is that it’s the bill that’s out there. It’s “the President’s health care reform bill” (as unfair and inaccurate as that may be, it’s the public perception). It’s “ObamaCare.” If you take that away, if you pass “health care reform” in the form of a mandate-less “goody bag” of reform (no recissions, no pre-existing condition limitations, etc.), not only do I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of that ploy (wouldn’t insurers just rocket up premiums to account for the added risk, without the “competition” of the PO?), but I believe that people would think (wrongly) that health care reform was “done.” The urgency, and energy, would be gone. So what, exactly, ammunition would we have to fight this campaign against the Blue Dogs, when the ground troops of the progressive movement think that the battle is elsewhere (Afghanistan, perhaps, or financial re-regulation)?
So, if my assessment of our likely (un)-success of mounting a campaign against the conservadems AFTER a “goody bag” bill passes is correct, the result of stripping the PO would likely be negative; not only would we NOT even have the weak PO we’re likely to get now, but we probably wouldn’t get it in the future. Not only that, but we’d have “shot our wad” (let’s face it, this fight is the first time the progressives have been taken seriously for a LONG time) for basically nothing, and the general public remembers things like that. So the odds of us getting a MORE progressive bill passed in the near future would dwindle, I suspect, to near zero.
Anyway I slice it in my mind, the results of stripping the weak public option from the bill, or killing it outright at the moment, are worse than passing the bill as it stands.
I guess we’ll see, but considering the Eshoo amendment in the House bill, even if the PO saves some money (instead of costing more due to patient dumping), the rest of the system gets to pay for it, forever, with infinity-years patents on our drugs.
I think that Jane was right to say that they can and will pass something that they will call health care reform.
It won’t be killed, but I agree that what started out as a set of compromises has since become ridiculously watered down during the process of making a few legislators happy. I also think that shit was added – Stupak Amendment – that simply should never have been allowed to get near this bill in the first place.
It’s almost enough to make you think that the whole thing was orchestrated.
Some Progressives will be happy that there’s something called a public option and some insurance regulation. Some Conservatives will be happy that there’s a provision stripping away women’s reproductive rights. Some Progressives will be angry that there’s nothing even remotely close to single-payer. And some Conservatives will be angry that there’s a anything called a public option, even though it’s really just a shadow of what a public option should be.
There’s something in this crap to enable anyone to declare victory and/or sound the alarms.
I don’t think it was orchestrated, but I do think that this bullshit has become a farce and that no one who wanted real reform can claim a ‘win’ at this point.
The real measure of this reform should and must be made on and over how it will make the bottom one third or lower half of American social/economic ranking by employment income,household income and ability to participate in American society better. More equitable. A more level playing field.
This is where this reform must effect the most positive and meaningful changes,improvements and better outcomes.
Failing to do that makes this reform less than doing nothing.
It is not beyond reason to conclude as noted in many comments above and by letsgetitdone to begin with that this reform is not going to help or make life easier and better for bottom third or half of American society.
This is not reform of American healthcare. This is a taxpayer handover by WashingtonDC for the for profit insurers and other entrenched current healthcare regime placeholders. Mandates? Who benefits? Reduced impact or enfeebled PO approach? Who benefits? Trying to minimise national Medicare For All or suffocate any formation of Single Payer Plan ever seeing the light of day? Who benefits?
Finally we know the Ds are as guilty as the Rs in trying to wring campaign contributions out of the current healthcare regimes players who in turn expect lots of say about WashingtonDC conduct.
This reform is not a reform. It is a endorsement of the current regime.
Stop it. Kill it. Wait until 2011. The politics of this reform stink.
Sure, good piece. I’d say yes, we pass this, regroup, and work for the next fight. In my mind, success breeds success.
Agreed.
And once this kabuki is over, I’ll commit to be there to fight the next one. You with me?
I hope that I don’t sound too naive or that I’m presenting too simplistic a question as a counterargument, but what do you think would happen to the health care, pharmaceutical, and health insurance industries if this legislation is killed, i.e. if nothing is done?
The only thing I’m willing to commit to at this point is to do what I can to remove the current failed Democratic leaders in the House and Senate and to join with whomever I can to primary out those DINO’s who fucked the American people by shitting all over this opportunity for real reform.
I’ve credited Obama on his planning for Afghanistan. I also think he’s moving toward repealing DADT by Oct 2010. He deserves to finish out the rest of this term.
But he has failed us on health care reform and, for that alone, he should face a Republican Congress come Jan 2011.
I would hope you would reconsider that statement. What strategic gain comes from that?
dear lets, I am so with you. I spent all day writing my lipstick on a pig diary. i trust it will support the points on this one. i read your great diary but don’t have time at moment to go through a spirited thread. will be back. thanks. libby
Respectfully.. I think that question is a bit unfair.
Speaking for myself…. I’ve (we’ve) supported Blue America, progressive candidates, ad campaigns, FDL.. including the fight for a compromise of a robust Public Option instead of single payer from the get go.
Often we’ve compromised… including so many progressives fighting for any of the Dem presidential candidates.. all who were nowhere near progressive. We always compromise!
What we have today is nowhere near what I expected from Progressives in the House in particular. Nowhere near a robust PO.
I support compromise to a degree, but that passed long ago… the people and movement I supported have changed in support of the awful awful bill (as it is now).
This bill is no good… not nearly enough.
For Citizens to Consider as Congress Puts Lipstick on the Health Care Reform Pig
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/15316
Actually, the bills do affect the bottom third of income/population. Eligibility for Medicaid is expanded for several million more, kids stay covered under parents’ policies up through ages 25 or 26, and for those currently without insurance, the highest levels of federal subsidies go to those between 150% and 200% of the federal poverty level. The bills each raise about a trillion dollars over 10 years to help pay for that.
What strategic gain came from supporting Obama and the Democrats in Congress on health care reform?
Obama was weak. The failed leaders in Congress caved. And we lost.
President Obama looked back at Clinton’s failure in the ’90s and learned the wrong lesson for this fight in 2009.
The next Democrat in the White House will look back at the failures of both Clinton and Obama and will do what is right and what needs to be done.
Pardon my sports analogy, but if I have pushed my opponent back 95 yards, why should we give them an an extra man on the offensive line the next time they have the ball?
Number one: Jesus, kyeo.
Number two: Those who are arguing here against killing the current, enfeebled proposal seem stuck in a short-term perspective focused entirely on D.C.
I see this as a long-term battle that has really just begun and that must focus right now as much on “winning hearts and minds” (of the public) as on counting votes. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do not have the impression that past efforts at health care reform have engendered anything like the reform “movement” that has grown up in the past couple of years. Rather, the historically sporadic attempts to enact health care reform have an advance-and-retreat quality that also threatens to define what is happening right now.
It has nothing to do with “taking our ball and going home.” Rather, it has to do with trying to tease out the most effective strategy and, as has been noted, a fear that accepting half a loaf now will preclude the possibility of getting a full loaf for a very long time. The underlying premise is that, despite earlier attempts at reform, this battle is in its early stages, and what we do now needs to lay the groundwork for future success.
P.S. to letsgetitdone: Many thanks for the links shared in #9.
so sorry. i did read the whole thing and only pull out the bits i thought applied to the issue of medicare. i know it’s still a lot and i know there’s still a bunch of stuff i don’t understand (probably much more than i may have figured out).
And I’ll already concede…it’s only the 35 yard line
no. cbo does fed budget numbers. not cost to nation. for that you have to go to cms (until and unless there is another source).
The health care industry is already 16% of our economy. With mandates and subsidies, it will grow even more. Think of all that cash insurers are going to be able to throw at candidates and advertisers if this bill passes. I say strike while the iron’s hot. I have written to Bernie Sanders asking him to strip the po, mandates and the exhanges from this bill and pass only the health insurance reform parts: ending rescission, denial of claims for subsequent illness and lifetime limits on insurance payments. In addition, I asked him to work to end insurance companies’ exclusion from antitrust legislation. Once this has past, we can get down to real reform: S 703. If it doesn’t work at the Federal level, we should try to pass it at the state level.
the questions you are asking do not describe a grass roots social movement. organizing is not the same as leading. organizing comes first. and, contra to your “daily healthcare” posts — it’s already begun. too bad nyceve was right last summer.
Excellent comment. Thank you for articulating the feelings of many of us so well. This time around, I’ve contributed $ to FDL Action, Democracy for America, the PCCC, and even HCAN (only ones running ads in TN). There was no reason for this failure.
I remember well enough losing in the early 90s. And we’ve lost yet again.
Each time, the system gets worse and worse and the American people are more and more ready for real change.
Frankly, the American people were ready for it this time, but the current leadership of the Democratic Party managed to pull defeat out of the jaws of victory anyway.
RBG, don’t show us the crumbles we’ve been given by the failed and immoral leaders of the Democratic Party and tell us we should be happy about them.
No one who wanted real reform – not me, not you, no one – can claim a ‘win’ at this point.
Not sure why you’re not seeing the bigger picture. First, no way we should continue to support failed leaders. Second, there will be other Democrats in the White House who will certainly have a better chance to achieve more precisely because so little was achieved this time and the system will just continue to fall apart.
I completely agree. I believe in small, but not insignificant, steps.
That doesn’t make me rejoice, but it does give me a reason to fight another day.
RBG, is that you? since when is anyone’s personal life any of our business?
just my opinion, but supporting the progressive grass roots by keeping the idea of single payer alive is a way of helping.
if i thought those gains were sustainable, i would have a very different analysis of the house bill. but that has not been the MA experience.
Not really disagreeing with you, but I was replying to this part of your earlier comment:
(my bold)
Are you really prepared to deal with the ramifications of that statement?
How does this happen? How many hoops,conditions,restrictions or manner of paperwork chases must be completed or repeatedly run?
Does this so called reform actually provide the most disadvantaged as measured by education,employment,household income,marital status,gender,disability or simple being lucky or not lucky a simple,one stop Medicare system outcome?
Basing healthcare access on very nebulous subsidy formulas which are then mixed in with mandates and forced buy-ins into the current for profit healthcare regimes seems very Rube Goldberg like. This reform is not about making better healthcare access available to the least advantaged,educated and household income impaired Americans. It does not directly address the current 35 to 50 million Americans not covered by current regime. This reform seems headed towards shoveling more money and then lots more money into a for profit healthcare premised regime. A premise which does not reflect better moral or ethical thinking.
Finally the longer United States continues to mix employer,employment,employee and retiree status with healthcare access/provision with the economic impacts spreading across the American economy this American economy is not competitive with much of the planets other industrialized socieities and enonomies. Postponing this much needed American social and economic switchover is a serious shortfall of this so called reform.
A trillion dollars over ten years? Big deal. The Pentagon/CIA alone burn through that much every year as it is. A trillion dollars may sound like a pile of money but when measured by current WashingtonDC spending scales it is not so much over ten years.
Simplicity of a Medicare For All approach does not involve mixing it up with mandates,private/public interfaces of funding,IRS income verification enforcement and penalties for not buying in exposures. One plan. One card. Independent of employment. Marital status. Gender. Income or social status.
Make it simple. Not more complicated. This so called reform does the latter. Just the Opt Out provision being made so central is a big tell.
This is not simplicity. This is make it more complicated. Complication that does not address cost control and allows the current regime to stay in business. That is a massive failure.
the problem i have is in thinking that the bad may outweight the good. this is a terribly hard place to be (for me anyway, maybe it’s clearer to others). just too many unknowns, and since i don’t trust the process and i don’t trust the politicians and i don’t trust the regulators…. i’m left not trusting the outcome to be something better.
when the political process is so very broken, simple is much better because it gives the public a chance to provide some ongoing oversight. my two cents. ymmv.
pnhp and cna and others have been laying the groundwork for several years.
Hey stranger, long time no chat.
I’m in complete agreement with the general frustration here and FWIW, have a personal medical situation that is almost certainly not going to be resolved by anything our CongressCritters might actually dig out of their collective asses and pass in 2009, or even 2010.
But can we agree that a 2011 Republican Congress is not going to be a strategic advantage for what little hope I have for the next three years?
Agreed.. especially tied in with shoothearrow’s comment above yours. (Rube Goldberg).
It’s not a system which simple or working folk are going to be able to manage.. and I think that is by design.
Tax them at their paychecks and give them a health card whether working or not. Remove private insurance, government paperwork, and employers or employment from the equation as much as humanly possible.
i’m so sorry of your unresolved situation. i think that’s one of the reasons passions run so high on this issue — it’s one that does or has affected many of us and/or our loved ones. really hard to think clearly when it’s personal and painful.
anyway, i’m having trouble answering your question only because the thought of a republican congress gives me cold sweats. but yeah, of course, i can’t see any strategic advantage… unless it would prevent a right wing populist uprising. but that’s too nebulous and uncertain, whereas the risks of an R congress are all too concrete.
so yeah, you have my agreement. without reservation.
Call me a crazy dreamer, but I think that a 65 % public approval rating for a strong PO or Single Payer plan says that a lot of hay could be made during an election year to turn conserva-Dems around. Much more than we have been able to do in this odd-out year. Now, my problem with passing a PO now is that I can’t see it (the weak sauce) turning into an effective cost reducing strategy in the next ten years. So, passing it the way it is will be the kiss of death for effective change for perhaps a decade. This is somewhere near the best we can do to reform Health Care in this country? If liberals cave on the current versions we will only have ourselves to blame. You say its all we get for 10 years and I say we might be able to get much more if we strip out the option now and continue to press the progressives in congress to take it up again next summer. You think we will loose alot and I think when the PO emerges it will be almost invisible. We have different opinions of the weak sauce PO, I guess. What I do know is that if it is passed now that will be it for ten years, and I just can’t abide by that without a fight.
It’s not my failure to have to live with. Barack Obama and others will have to live with their failures.
I don’t know how old you are, but I’m old enough to have been an adult when I was given no choice but to live with the ramifications of such a failure, leading up to the Democrats losing Congress in 1994.
That’s why I understand just how big this failure – this failure that should have been a historic victory – really is.
i’m reading the effing reports (cbo and cms) and i sure can’t manage it.
p.s. to add….. the exchange, etc in MA is NOT easy to navigate (i’ve tried to find out more about how it works as the national debate has progressed). but here’s the kicker, as far as i can tell, the MA reform is looking to be better in almost all regards than what is now coming out of congress — and the aide i spoke with in my reps office did not disagree when i asked. instead i was assured that because we already have a waiver from the hhs, we can keep our exchanges.
Yup, “we” are in power now.. and our progressive caucus always is to some degree.
What they are doing now is what disappoints me most of all. They are not even trying.
Fork the republicans (for the moment), I’m just trying to find folks whom I support that keep their word.
But you miss the point…it will be all of our failure, including mine. And once again… do you really believe that a Republican Congress in 2011 is somehow a strategic advantage for progressive issues?
FWIW, if I told you I actually remember seeing Nixon’s “Checkers speech” on live television, does that answer your question about my age?
Yeah, organizing. Getting people to follow you, to believe in what you believe, to move together as a group. How are you going to do it? Because from what I see, folks who support this bill are, in fact, organized, and folks who want something more than is politically feasible right now, so far, have failed to organize enough.
Right on fellow crusader. Hey, some of us just have to say what a farcical kabuki dance we are witnessing with HCR. But, you know what? Soon we will be treated to all kinds of new Kabuki theater when we see just how great Climate Change-Global Warming legislation will be and just how easy it will be to put another 40,000 troops in Afghanistan. I view the current political system just like that old car that keeps breaking down no matter how much money I throw at it. I need a car that gets 120 mpg, but I don’t think they make them. True reform wants eleven dollar bills and all we got are tens.
no. that’s not grass roots organizing. grass roots organizing is helping people help themselves to achieve their own goals.
not convincing them to help you achieve yours.
there’s all kinds of organizing. not all of them are grass roots. and let’s be very very clear on this one. the folks who are organized to support this bill are not the progressive grass roots (those would be the people you by turns ignore or mock). this bill, it’s design, the process by which it was sold to the presidential candidates and the money to sell it to the public was a top down dem party elite operation, not a bottom up grass roots operation.
i may not know much, but i know that difference.
Ah, but you miss the point. Obama and the Dems in Congress have stepped all over the momentum they had after last year’s electoral victory.
I don’t think that Obama’s going to be facing a Republican Congress come Jan 2011 because of anything that I say or do. I think he’s going to be facing a Republican Congress because of what he and the Dems in Congress have failed to do.
That I think Obama deserves what he’s about to be getting is neither here nor there. I’m not going to be cheering for the Republicans, but I’m sure as hell not going to help the DNC, the DSCC, or the DCCC at all.
Obama won last year because he inspired so many people under 35 to get off their asses and vote – election last year broke all records.
You seriously think now that anyone’s going to be much inspired next year after the weak performance we’ve seen? When Obama goes out campaigning next year to help Democrats not lose their seats in Congress, what’s going to be his mantra, “change you can believe in, sort of, a little bit, well, not really, not at all”?
In any event, yes, I think that these leaders have to go before progressives can return for another shot at real reform.
No, what I am saying is, why be in such a hurry to pass the bill since, the way it is structured, very little benefit will appear until 2013 or later. The Democrats are sick of the bill and just want to get it out of the way, but I view the process as make or break for the next decade, so I’d like to continue the fight. BTW, recision and pre-existing conditions clauses will be floating around out there next year anyway without any check on the insurance industry to raise rates. Massive rate hikes are coming to not only individuals but also to groups in the next three years and I don’t see them stopping with the PO. I for one don’t think that this travesty of a bill is worth supporting DEMS in 2010, except for the selective few that are not corrupted by all this lobby money.
first (or is it second or maybe third?) act has already begun:
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/15062/comment-page-1#comment-98359
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/14020/comment-page-1#comment-95589
Even a reasonably rich state like Massachusetts will have trouble sustaining state programs during a large recession when state budgets have to be slashed. But the federal government has increased its support for Medicaid during this recession.
That’s an argument for moving safety net elements, including support for health care, to the national level — it can print money to sustain the programs when states have to be cutting back.
Jason, In answer to your question, I said:
Then you replied:
Comparing these quotes. I think the first gives two reasons why someone would want to taek it up again. Do you disagree with these reasons? If so, why?
You go on:
The quote is just above. Where do I say the progressives are the ones who’ll get to call the shots? All I see is a claim that others will have to offer an improved bill to get progressive support. If Obama, the leadership, and the blue dogs think they can get along without a bill, then let them try to sell that to the American people.
You go on:
The incentive is that they will know that such a bill won’t pass the House. So, if Reid and the Administration want to get a bill through the Senate, they’re going to do what they have to do, or they’ll get nothing. Above, I point out that the Administration and the leadership might choose to retreat by proposing a basic regulatory bill, forgetting about the PO, the exchange, and the mandates. I think progressives can live with that, and consider more comprehensive legislation next year. The insurance companies will no doubt respond to that by raising prices in January. Fine. That will strengthen the appeal of both Medicare for All and the PO at the beginning of next year.
You go on:
.
You won’t cover a vast number of the uninsured for some years. With the high risk pool and no PO in the first 3.5 years you’ll be lucky to get an additional 16,000,000, only 1/3 of the uninsured. With prices rising so rapidly and no price controls or subsidies, I actually doubt whether you’ll get that many.
Moving to the PO, as you well know, it won’t be available until 2013, and then only for the uninsured. As for popularity of the bill, where are the surveys that measure the popularity of HR 3962 or a bill similar to that? I see surveys that offer vaguely worded questions about a bill with a PO. Sure, responses to those show that the basic idea of a PO is popular. But wait until people experience the reality of a bill like HR 3962 which provides no PO until 2013. Do you really think that will be popular? As to why it’s so bad, I’ve outlined my reasons above very plainly. It’s so bad because it leaves too many deaths, bankruptcies, and foreclosures on the table, and because the hype, arguments, celebrations, and attempts at self-justification after the fact will prevent any further hcr until 2015, leaving many deaths, bankruptcies, and foreclosures as continuing outcomes of the system.
You next say:
This isn’t a fact at all. The political incentive for coming up with something more progressive is to get a comprehensive bill. If the President, the leadership, and the blue dogs think they can survive without one, let them go ahead. I think they’ll all be toast and that a lot more of them will be defeated than the progressives. They might save themselves with a clean regulatory bill without giveaways to the insurance companies, but as I said earlier, I think that’s something that progressives can support without hurting the future of health care reform. However, even if we supported that, we’d be back early next year to address the fatalities, bankruptcies, and foreclosures problems again.
Finally, you say:
I don’t expect to get Medicare for All passed immediately. My strategy is to build a movement over the next few years, while pushing Medicare for All, until the other side (the Administration, blue dogs, the leadership) offers better legislation than it’s offering today.
I advocate not saying yes to any legislation that compromises future progress toward Medicare for All. Legislation with band-aid periods would be a no-no. Legislation threatening free choice, another no-no. State opt-outs, another non-no. And I also advocate continuous pushing on Medicare for All in each session, so that each compromise victory is followed by more pushing.
Again, I do not disagree with your overall perspective, I just had a visceral response to your earlier point:
Do you truly believe a “Republican Congress come Jan 2011″ in any way benefits the goals you / we are trying to achieve?
Very well stated. Thanks.
You bet, Russ.
Okay, you’ve moved from saying the bill does little/nothing for the poorest, to saying what it does is too complicated, and it would be simpler if we just had Medicare for all, etc. No argument with that.
I don’t agree that a trillion dollar transfer, at least half of which is from higher income (mostly) to lower income is trivial. It’s massive.
Dion’t know. But I do know that passage of this bill accompanied by all the self-congratulation and back-slapping that’s already starting (Tom Harkin was disgusting on KO’s program this evening), will make it impossible to get further reform next year. The attitude of progressives in Congress on this is all wrong. Even if they do vote for this, they need to do so grudgingly blaming everyone in sight for producing a bill that is such a giveaway to the insurance companies, and that will leave so many deaths in place. Then if they came back next year asking for more, they could say. We told you it was a terrible bill and would need amendment last year. Now we’re back to finish the job that you wouldn’t let us finish last year.
I don’t think you answered the question. As for the VA, you’re not really recommending VA for all as a way of lowering costs are you? Now that’s eal socialized medicine, not just socialized insurance.
Good one.
I see Attackerman on Rachel talking about troop levels.
Jason, That’s ridiculous. The VA has a very long history behind it, as well as the aura of service to country surrounding it. That’s the reason why oit’s able to negotiate such good prices. Not that it has 8 million people in it.
Can I play devil’s advocate for just a moment? And yes, I realize I’m self selecting from your comment above, but how do we turn this:
into the next step that we can all kick ass to make a reality?
agree reasonably rich, and also not that many people affected (since our insurance rates were already so high) so ought to be close to a best case. i’ll have to go back and look at the old numbers, but i don’t think it was expected to be sustainable even before the recession — an experiment and a stop gap measure. but i could be wrong and will try to remember to look for some info tomorrow (some days i think i forget to do more stuff than i remember to do though).
i look at the changes that are being implemented in MA and worse the ones being planned (latest one i read about was to stop automatically re-enrolling people in commonwealth care every year, even though they qualify because it saves money if there are less people covered) and i have to take a time out while i bang my head on the desk.
re your argument about federalizing the reform. in theory, i’d agree 110% if that were possible. not so sure though with summers and the current gang of deficit terrorists in both congress and the administration.
Jason, You’re dreaming. There’s no success. HR 3962 is not a success. It’s a failure a giveway to the insurance companies, and a bill that doesn’t end the problems created by the insurance system for many, many years.
How can you fight for reform next year if you join the celebration of this travesty as a great and historic success?
Thanks STA. You’ve got it.
I think that as each year goes by they’d be more and more likely to get tarred and feathered and then lynched.
Where did I say I celebrate anything?
I accept that today is the smallest victory I can get out of a pile of shit, and wake up tomorrow morning ready to fight again.
A Republican Congress wouldn’t help anything, but a Democratic Congress with some militant progressives in it would surely help. Also, don’t forget his failure on the economy. Same old unregulated financial system. No jobs.
Thanks lib, looking forward to your “Lipstick . . . ” diary and to your return.
Right somewhere, somewhen, we have to say “thus far, and no further.” Let’s start with this POS. Kill It, It’s the Enemy of the Good.
Brilliant title, lib.
devil’s advocate to devil’s advocate:
1. how many friedman units will it be before this bill (which the dems are claiming is the cumulation of the fight for universal healthcare since truman – they aren’t saying it’s a small step) is seen by the public as needing additional reform. passing this bill may, and i emphasize the “may”, take all the energy out of the current push for reform.
2. if the public hates this bill (don’t know if they will, that’s another question), progressives will have no credibility for the next fight if we are seen to be responsible for selling hated reforms.
not really arguing one way or the other with this comment, just don’t see it as clear cut as “wake up tomorrow morning ready to fight again.” how we fight now will affect our ability to fight tomorrow.
I don’t think the Mass experiment would have been sustainable even without the recession. As long as health care costs — charges by providers, not just insurers — are escalating faster than state income, then it had to be scaled back at some point. They chose to expand coverage first and deal with costs later, and it’s now later, but until they solve that, I don’t see how they can avoid cutting coverage in some way or another.
We’ll be talking about the cost issue on Friday with Maggie Mahar — I honestly don’t see a solution yet.
got to try to get some sleep.
don’t suppose a group hug would go over so well right now, but how about a reminder that what we’re arguing over is how to get to universal healthcare? i like to remember that we share that goal.
night all.
I hope so, Knox. My problem is that I see how much money Clinton has made since he left the Presidency, and I wonder if Obama doesn’t have an eye on that too. I also wonder whether future Presidents will risk the displeasure of big business and the probable loss of a great fortune if they do what is right.
Nothing during 2010-2013, it isn’t set up yet. As for how much will it save, CBO says $25 billion, but, given the VA example – an entity that must negotiate rates and that has just about as many people in it as the CBO says the PO would have – those estimates seem very conservative.
the va HAS to negotiate rates? you do know that the the va [ie, the government] owns its own hospitals, clinics, nursing homes, etc and that its doctors, nurses, etc are government employees, don’t you? it doesn’t HAVE to negotiate rates with anybody.
the va is, however, ALLOWED to negotiate with drug manufacturers, whereas medicare is PREVENTED BY LAW from negotiating with drug manufacturers. this was a giveaway of tax dollars to big pharma, and also a boon to the insurance industry, because medicare advantage plans ARE allowed to negotiate with drug manufacturers. had traditional medicare been able compete on this ‘playing field’ it would have wiped out much of what medicare advantage had to offer.
full socialized medicine, that’s my preference. i consider single payer my line-in-the-sand compromise.
Great comment, OutWest
deficit terrorists!
i am sooooooo stealing that one.
i agree. it’s just that insurers are a really really big bite, and one we know how to do (technically, not politically). and the insurers get in the way of the other reforms we need to try.
btw, in case you haven’t seen them, a couple of older studies (1998 and 2002) cost studies for MA (have to scroll down as there are a lot of studies on the list).
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_system_cost.php?page=all
not mine (i’ve stolen it from the mmt folks), but you are welcome to it!
ok, really gonna try to leave now….
also, it has a mostly older and sicker population, so it can promise to buy lots of drugs in quantity. medicaid can negotiate good drug prices too, but it covers 50+ million people. not sure a po would have enough truly sick people to get a huge ‘walmart discount’ on drugs, even if it did end up with the sicker people via adverse selection.
then there’s that little matter of medicare being BARRED from negotiating drug prices…
selise and Jason,
Here are some leaders: Kevin Zeese, Margaret Flowers, Paul Hochfeld, Marcia Angell, Steffi Woolhandler, Bernie Sanders, Michael Moore, and Dennis Kucinich. There are also many orgs out there. Just google ‘em. Demonstrations have been starting. People are getting arrested. There are slogans, songs and singers, and Union support. See this account for the flavor of it.
We’ve already got more intensity and spirit behind this than is behind the whole PO thing. Jason who really cares about the PO? Who loves it? Who would die for it?
But we can recognize a loss. And the first thing we need to do is to make the Dems admit that it’s a failure, and that we all have to do better.
I disagree. In 1993 we walked away with nothing and ended up with Newt and Co. in charge. How did that work out for progressive causes?
We have waited 16 years for another chance at HCR. We should take what our
constitutional system and the current poltical landscape allow and build on that.
Opportunites for meaningful progressive change, such as this imperfect incremetal legislation represents, occur so infrequently, given the nature of our republic, you should always take what you can. To do otherwise, is to ignore our history.
That’s OK, selise. RBG, I’m a writer. That’s what I do. But there are organizers out there, and they are developing the ground game. I named some names in my earlier reply.
I believe that having this Democratic Congress has not benefitted the goals that you / we are trying to achieve.
I will not be supporting these Democrats next year. Not even very many of the Dems in the Progressive Caucus deserve much support after all the caving that they did on health care.
If that fact upsets you so much, I suggest you do like I did and write letters to President Obama, Leader Reid, Speaker Pelosi, and DCCC Chairman Van Hollen to tell them how unhappy you are with them for throwing away this opportunity and so, in all likelihood, having handed Congress back to the Republicans come Jan 2011.
Send President Obama an email to say thanks for being too weak to achieve real health care reform and so handing Congress over to the Republicans come Jan 2011 via contact page of White House’s website:
Send Senate Majority Leader Reid an email to say thanks for being too weak to achieve real health care reform and so handing Congress over to the Republicans come Jan 2011 via contact page at his website.
Send Speaker Pelosi an email to say thanks for being too weak to achieve real health care reform and so handing Congress over to the Republicans come Jan 2011 via her contact page HERE.
Send Rep. Chris Van Hollen, DCCC Chairman, an email to say thanks for being too weak to achieve real health care reform and so handing Congress over to the Republicans come Jan 2011 via the DCCC contact page HERE.
No — did not move — just broke it down to explain what doing little/nothing translates into. For those of us who do not have benefit of what is called in estate planning biz as the rich mans table.
Trillion dollar transfer over ten years in American healthcare business is a fraction of yearly American healthcare expenditure as measured today and surely five or ten years from now.
Trillions,billions,millions of dollars. Lots of zeroes involved to be sure.
Me? Never have made more than $75,000 in any given year since I began working back in late 1960s. Most of my working life which is based on a 12 year education I have been employed by employers who did not offer health insurance. Right now I am in one of those spots here in early 21st century America where a number of circumstances and factors combine to place me outside of having employment with health insurance available or possible.
I truly do not feel Barack Obama and the current D Party leadership in WashingtonDC know,understand or care about Americans like me based on what this so called reform appears to be or may be in years 2013,2015 or 2020.
I do understand American household income/wealth is a very lopsided affair with the top five percent and then top one percent of American households easily in control of fifty percent plus of American household income/wealth. Nothing wrong with that? — OK…sure — but that also gets down into who gets educated better and who gets to stay lucky in America.
One trillion dollars to be sure is a lot of money. But this reform has not and does not encompass entire American healthcare dollar pie or what is going into that pie. Which comes from all Americans as a society either in positive or negative ways. Does not address who gets to do the pie slicing. Does not identify where the built in waste,fraud and for profit skimoffs are.
A trillion dollars over ten years when scaled against amounts of dollars in American healthcare pie here in 2009? Or will be next year or what it will be in 2015? Really not very much.
You are entitled to your views and politics however. If you believe Barack Obama,Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid have fought your fight that is good for you.
Me? I think Barack Obama does not. Nancy Pelosi did not. Harry Reid will not.
I do feel strongly about the policy form ups,politics and forward vision and thinking orbiting around American healthcare reform. I grade this reform on how it addresses the less advantaged,less educated and less able to gain meaningful household income/wealth. This reform does little or nothing for too many Americans next week,next month,next year. It is far too complicated and convoluted. Too bad about that.
Too bad Barack Obama failed to put Single Payer Plan at middle of this reform. It was his call as President to make. History will likely show this decision to shelve Single Payer(Medicare For All) by Barack Obama to have been very shortsighted and ignorant of where Americans needed to be by 2020.
Ridiculous!
Care to elaborate? I’m guessing you think the the Democrats will actually be gaining seats in the House and Senate as a result of their not-so-stellar performance this year? That would be ridiculous!
Sure.
I do not think Democrats will gain seats in the 2010 election. It is possible, but history informs us that it is unlikely. We can and should continue to hold a majority in the Senate and House. Your abandonment plan, which I consider ridiculous, would put that in jeopardy and would result in great harm.
Our constitutional republic at times allows for incremental progressive change. This is one of those times and our leaders have delivered the possible. We should embrace it and build on it.
Don’t forget Health Care Now!
Yes, we can agree on that. But perhaps it would be even better if we had some progressive third party people in Congress.
I get your point here, but it’s not because of history that the Dems will be losing seats next year.
The Dems in the House will be losing at least a couple of dozens seats, and probably more, and the Dems in the Senate will be losing too (indeed, Majority Leader Reid may well lose his run for reelection next year) – they’ll be losing far more than they should – for no other reason than that they failed to lead on health care reform.
Fact is, they underestimated how important their achieving real health care reform would be to millions and millions of Americans. They disappointed a lot of people.
Not sure when it became my plan to abandon real health care reform and so throw away the majorities we gave these leaders in the 2006 and 2008 elections.
Never was my plan.
If you don’t like the way Obama, Reid, Pelosi and others put the Democratic majorities in the House and Senate in jeopardy and, indeed, have done great harm as a result, go back up to my comment @ 135, click on those links, and tell them what you think of them.
I’m just the messenger, my friend. Though I have admitted that I believe that they failed so badly that they deserve what they’re going to have to face come Jan 2011.
It is a historic failure. God what Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, or Johnson would have done with such an opportunity.
Exactly! What explains this huge failure? It’s inexcusable.
They did not get universal health care. Why? Our system. We do not have a parliamentery system of government.
Just what great progressive legislation are you attributing to JFK? He was a very cautious politician who embraced the incrementalism that informs our constitutional system.
Well, I can’t disagree with you there. medicare for All people certainly haven’t organized enough yet. But judging from the success of the PO people in this round, I’d say that you’re not organized enough yet either. Or perhaps it’s not just a matter of being organized that counts, but also a matter of what you’ve organized. You folks have organized a whole bunch of organizations to support the PO, but unfortunately not much of the population. Perhaps it’s a matter of the PO not being inspiring enough for people to organize around?
You seem very happy with how little these current leaders have been able to achieve in advancing health care reform, despite all the advantages they had this year.
Good for you.
That’s the difference and that’s why nobody loves the PO.
This is an incredibly important point and very little mentioned or explained in the entire “debate” over HCR. For Medicare to be saved and to work most efficiently and economically, it must be “expanded to include everyone” because this will create the largest possible risk pool and largest possible money pool to have a true insurance system that largely pays for itself (except for profoundly disabled that govt has always covered) with a private option for luxury benefits like private rooms and cosmetic surgery. The “mandate windfall” (under current HCR a bonanza that will go mostly to private insurers’ Wall Street stockholders) under Medicare for All will be used to help insure the low-income margins (instead of sandbagging the public Treasury under current HCR proposals to subsidize private insurance premiums — what a scam!) In addition to savings gained from removal of private profits, advertising overhead, inefficient administration, etc, the fresh infusion of money will come from millions of relatively young/well members pitching in their taxation which helps offset the older members of the pool whose healthcare is more expensive, thus “saving” Medicare, as it were. Better yet, think of it as creating Medicare for All — or “Americare” (or some such name that doesn’t sound so dowdy as “Medicare”).
This is all fairly obvious but I ran through it to show that true insurance design is really quite elegant and efficient, as described in the Medicare for All model. What the commercial “insurers” have been doing is not insurance but an elaborate middleman gouging operation scooping up shovelfuls of profits with virtually no competition solely for corporate Wall Street benefit. Put in Naomi Klein’s “No Logo” terms, they have been selling the image of care, the brand, but not building one ounce of care while charging a gigantic fee for processing bills. To try to pull off “reform” by building on top of this highway robbery is utter folly and is only explained (as far as I can figure) by massive individual corruptions of Congress (and WH) by the HC industry, coupled with ignorance of the general public who’ve grown used to the commercial system and have been brainwashed not to trust a public (“government”) system. Wait till you turn 65 (as I did recently) and interact with Medicare and you’ll find the most efficient, courteous, thoughtful people you’ve likely ever dealt with over the phone, far different from “customer service” of corporate entities like insurance companies. It’s uncanny how wonderful the experience is (same with Social Security). The result is an immediate elevation of mood just at a point in one’s life when one can use it.
I know from personal experience there is a massive appetite for single payer/Medicare for All since California, the largest state in the union and one of the largest economies on earth (or used to be) passed an SP bill through our legislature twice before it was vetoed by our Neanderthal Governor Schwarzenegger. We’re talking one pen in one hand (one fist).
Love the title “Kill it, it’s the enemy of the good.” Finally an answer to that godawful phrase.
It can, but will it do that when it’s overcome by deficit hawkism, which may be the next one in Obama’s bag of tricks coming down the pike.
I am not overjoyed with this legislation, but recognize that it represents what is possible under our system and the current political landscape.
Like the original Social Security legislation that passed in 1935, which was very meager and not scheduled to start paying out benefits until 1942, it will benefit many and give us someting to build on.
I don’t know RBG. I’m for killing this bill.
I’m just saying that if you don’t want to kill it and you want to come back next year for more changes, you damn well be better be very visibly holding your nose when you do vote for it and shouting all the while that you’re only doing it because it will save 14,000 lives per year for the first 3.5 years, and also that this is an improvement over leaving 45,000 annually to die. However, we must never forget, as well, that it’s a terrible bill because it still leaves 31,000 Americans per year to die, and that means we have to come back next year to fix it.
Not talking about you RBG. If we don’t work to kill this and it passes the Democrats and Progressives in Congress will celebrate it, and we won’t be able to tell them next year that it’s a POS and get them to work for more. We have to get them to admit now that it’s a POS, whether they want to vote for it or not.
Our system wasn’t what made this outcome inevitable, as you seem to think. The people who are currently in positions of power in our system screwed up a golden opportunity. The system didn’t do it. People who failed as leaders did it.
What was possible in the current political landscape wasn’t achieved because of a lack of strong leadership.
Again, you’re obviously satisfied enough with how little these current leaders have been able to achieve in advancing health care reform, despite all the advantages they had this year.
I’m happy for you.
Somehow or another, I hold my nose most every day and dive back into the daily POS.
As a wise woman once said….”there’s a pony in there somewhere”.
Which has been my point exactly. To put this a bit more technically, political change exhibits path dependence. Our future freedom of action and our future direction are both constrained by the choices we make now. Progressives are making a choice now that will dog their ability to push for reform for years.
Thanks hipparchia. I neglected to point that out to our friend Jason. Always glad to have your help.
Wow, lets. You really touched off a conversation!
I heard Frank Schaeffer on Rachel talking about how the wingnuts are so irrational that we on the left needed to rally NOT criticize Obama.
No. I won’t circle the wagons around the Dem party and Obama who have crossed the line in my mind, to abandoning the needs of the citizenry. Lost to game playing and self-serving.
I was in denial a lot of years, over-trusting my government. We all were. And look at what happened. Look at the insanity of it all. We keep discovering more and more occasions for it, and many of us are its direct economic or health victims.
The Repubs are like the dangerous alcoholic parent. The citizenry are the children. And now the children find out how sick the enabling, codependent supposedly sane and trustworthy parent is, the Dem party.
With all the dimensions of dysfunction we are trying to spotlight and cope with, we needed a leader to help with the coordination and for morale. That would have been the Obama for change we thought he was.
Instead he joins the machinery of the status quo. The deadly machinery of the status quo. And Nader was right, when it comes to corporate prostitution, both parties are up to their armpits.
We need to reunite with each other, not enable those who don’t deserve our support just cuz we rationalize they are the lesser of two evils.
What bottom do we have to hit for progressives and citizens to really get outraged. media is a real enemy in distracting or disinforming.
We have to be in the solution, not enable one more problem.
Frank Schaeffer wants us to shut up because we have to rally against the insane wing nuts. But we need to outpassion them. Our grassroots constructive righteousness vs. their astroturf infantilized and malleable hysteria.
my late 2 cents. :)
Historically, which has worked best to produce good ootcomes, single-payer with private providers or full socialized? I have the impression that single-payer is working better on the whole. What do you think?
Goodnight!
Progressives have pushed for universal health care for over 100 years. It hasn’t occurred.
Over the past 100 years we have had, at different times, good, mediocre and poor leadership. This would indicate that something other than the quality of our leadership is at play here.
A good part of answer is that unlike the other modern nations of the west that have had universal health care for decades, we do not have a parliamentarian system. As such, fundamental whole hog progressive change is damn near impossible to achieve. The system put in place to protect slavery is thwarting universal health care.
Nah!!!!! Arguments against that position are above and throughout this thread. This is a dog, we need to defeat it.
Good on you, Knox. Think I’ll do that too.
Like the original Social Security legislation that passed in 1935, which was very meager and not scheduled to start paying out benefits until 1942, it will benefit many and give us someting to build on.
yeah, social security forced everybody into the choice of either buying into a 401k run by a bloated, byzantine private firm, or else pay a fine/tax to the irs.
56i like don mccanne’s [of pnhp] compromise:
it allows the democrats to pass a bill [and therefore not 'lose'], reins in the worst of the insurance abuses right away [should help at the polls in 2010], and leaves the field open for single payer next year [or next congress].
Theoretically, if this year’s bill is defeated, there will be next year or the following year to pass a more “moral” bill. However, another bill won’t be brought up for at least another decade.
It’s probably true that this bill won’t be perfect, however, many people’s lives will be destroyed if health costs aren’t reined in at all. Consider that if this bill fails, the industry will raise premiums and make it more difficult for anyone to afford health in the USA.
I know your intent was satirize my comment [fair enough], but actually you may have stumbled into the truth. I do both.
SAT I agree with nearly everything. But this:
There’s a lot wrong with that. The economy and the tax system was rigged to let that happen over the past 30 years or so. The extreme inequality we see now threatens to destroy American Democracy and to put a plutocracy in its place. We need to stop that transition by rigging the system again the other way, so that the socio-economic pyramid becomes much flatter. We need higher taxes for the wealthy, higher minimum wages and programs of various kinds to combat inequality. Without them, this great experiment in Democracy is over.
Where did you get the idea we have or ever had a democracy? That is not the system of government established by our Constitution.
We don’t need to “outpassion” the wingnuts. “Passion” is like the hare in a hare-tortoise analogy of human behavior; useful in spurts but not the long-run.
We need to continue working with the political and social systems we have in order to improve ourselves. Even when we have better ideas, we still need to work on allowing others to receive them by reducing the overall fear we have in our systems (which the GOP, etc. use at every opportunity).
Move forward. In August people were crying because a bill “would never reach the floor” but now that the House has passed its version and the Senate is on the verge, this is not the time to throw in the towel. The Stupak won’t stay in through the conference committee, and there are other imperfections, but this bill will give comfort to millions of people.
What past presidents did with their opportunities are in the record (somewhere). Social Security was great – but it didn’t solve everyone’s troubles; Truman – atom-bomb, officeholder; JFK – OK president but he spent most of his time proving he was macho (thnk Bay of Pigs, Berlin Wall, Cuban missiles, troop increase in Asia); Johnson – Civil rights act because he had JFK’s political capital and King’s work alongside him, yet even he kept raising our troop levels overseas.
Nothing is ever complete, we can only progress in steps, otherwise what would forums like this be for?
Read it like this…..Okaaaayyy?…surrrrre. 100% Snarkish. ;->
Just watched a large part of A Fistful of Dynamite on IFC. Lots of political action Italian style via Mexican Revolution movie making.Feel better now. Hauntingly beautiful ST.
The Ds seem set on polishing this turd called American healthcare reform tonight across American political media. Was Al Franken maybe the youngest guy on stage with Harry and the D Boys? He did not fit.
What a bunch of tired politicians that bunch of Ds looked. Hardly a surprise this reform is so anemic. With a class of leaders such as this on point whatever comes out of House/Senate Conference will surely be more useless and pointless then todays dropped turd.
Barack Obama looked like a breakthrough D in Denver in that big stadia with all those hopeful Americans all there for him.
Disappointed. So very much.
hard to say. we don’t have very many countries with pure [or nearly pure] socialized medicine: the uk, and spain, some of the nordic countries iirc, and i think new zealand, and i can’t remember if italy counts as socialized medicine.
australia, canada, taiwan are the closest cousins we have to medicare for all, although france isn’t too different from being a single payer country, and japan is similar to france.
we’ve got something like 450,000 people in this country working in health insurance, and several million doctors, nurses, etc, so nationalizing just the insurance part of it is a minor undertaking compared to nationalizing the whole enchilada.
you get pretty good cost control if the whole thing is nationalized, cutting out almost all the profit motive.
and the govt can just decide to open a clinic or hospital in an underserved area without having to worry about ‘making a go of it’ financially [not entirely, but to a great extent]. of course then they have to find people who are willing to work in those underserved areas [typically inner city and very rural].
and there’s always the [very likely] chance that once the conservatives are in power they’ll do what they can to underfund/privatize the system. the thatcherites did what they could to privatize the nhs in the uk [but it's still a better system than we've got here, yeah i know, low bar], and the republicans have significantly underfunded the vha in recent years. not to mention that the vha was in bad shape until president clinton came along and appointed a competent manager.
i’m a fan of small business, so that’s one of the other things i like about national health insurance and private providers [although this bill, among it's many other wacko ideas, does a lot to encourage providers to form large groups, up to and including on the order of the mayo system and the like].
leaving the providers free to be entrepreneurs, rather than requiring them to be employees, allows anybody who wants to and thinks they can carry it off to set up shop, which probably allows for more providers per capita, especially doctors and small clinics, than a purely govt-determined system would. a system in which a lot of people make a comfortable but not extravagant living being doctors and working maybe 35-40 hrs/week strikes me as eminently sane.
being allowed to do both is great. being forced to subsidize an industry that may or may not keep its promise to you in the future when you need it is bad bad bad.
social security was inadequate at its inception but it did not require the latter.
This will improve profits of corporations and be economically draining on citizens and reduce their quality of health care and it ignores malpractice atrocities and does not improve oversight of flagrant fraud.
I will work for S703. that has a right to be put forth. Just cuz the majority are pragmatically afraid to go for what is sane and affordable because they are prostituting for the corporations doesn”t mean I have to enable them.
I want to use my voice for what is honest. We are trying to end corruption in Afghan and Iraq two of the most corrupt countries not helped by us who has our own corruption out of control.. always bad, went on steroids with Bush so much that the unethical is not recognized by the kool aid drinking cronies of the status quo.
Passion, moral passion, is important for change. Sustained and honored. IMO.
I don’t know. I thought much better of Obama. Perhaps it has to do with the historical evolution of the Democratic Party. When Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, and Johnson were President, the Democratic Party was the Party of the people, with a very strong strain of economic liberalism running through it. Then when the McGovernites took over the Party in 1972, they introduced a very strong Yuppee strain into it and also a new kind of interest group rather than economic class-based liberalism.
Thereafter, the party became a coalition of interest groups working for various issue-based causes, but, increasingly, it was less concerned with class-based economic interests, like economic equality, and health care reform. Also, over time the representatives of the interests that made up the Democratic Party became increasingly wealthy due their positions as custodians of the large amount of money Democratic Party-affiliated interest groups have been raising from memberships that care about their causes.
This means that these folks, pretty militant and revolutionary in their own way once, are now part of an elite that controls the Democratic Party. That elite has a great deal of sympathy for their individual causes, but not a lot of empathy for the increasingly dire straits of working Americans. They don’t care enough to insist that wealthier people pay their fair share of taxes, or that everyone, including their sons and daughters bear equally the burden of military service. They don’t care much about the public educational system, because their own children go to private schools. They don’t care much about the minimum wage, because they don’t have to make a living on it. And so on.
One of the biggest changes we’ve seen over many years has been the change in attitude of the Press. 40 years ago, the Publishers were conservative, but the working press was made up of Liberal Democrats. Now the working press gets labeled by the ignorant right as “liberal,” and they are socially liberal, but they’re not economically liberal any more. They’re not egalitarian. They’re not friendly to the Unions, or to working class Americans. They’re deficit hawks. And they no longer instinctively distrust wealthy people and Wall Street. They may not be Palinites. But they’re equally comfortable with Democratic or Republican centrists and really uncomfortable with real progressives.
Anyway, I digress. My point is that Obama grew up in this elitist, socially liberal world, and acquired their fundamentally centrist attitudes. Yes, he was a community organizer, but that doesn’t mean he shares the perspectives of the 60s radicals who wanted to end poverty. His experience in the educational system was not one that emphasized the old lessons of other generations of Democrats about what was possible when Government was on the side of the people. Instead, it emphasized how powerful and effective the market was in solving problems. Obama learned to distrust populism and populist ideologies, whether right or left, because they were viewed negatively in the schools he went to. He learned to value globalization and globalism, and not so much the American domestic economy. He learned to value the financial system and the great banks, because, during the 80s, when he was coming up, they could do no wrong among the Harvard set.
So that’s what happened. Due to his rhetoric, we thought Obama was a Democrat and a progressive, but, in fact, he was a Rockefeller Republican, and when he got in he started acting like one.
I don’t attribute any great progressive legislation to JFK. But he didn’t have the great majorities in Congress Obama has. I do remember that he was very active in trying to get his legislative program and to shape what Congress was doing. It fell to Johnson to complete his civil rights work and to continue his economic reforms. Johnson passed Medicare with the kind of legislative majorities Obama has now. Truman accomplished amazing things with much smaller majorities, and even some very important things with no majority at all. Roosevelt had very large majorities and passed much of what he wanted. Had he lived through the War, we would have had national health care by 1946.
Thanks for talking about design of the system. Of course, HR 676 is a great bill. Simple, elegant, easy to understand, only 30 pages in .pdf format. Glad you liked the title. Here’s another one: “The timid is the Enemy of the Good.”
Thanks lib, for your very welcome contribution.
I don’t take Frank Schaeffer seriously as a progressive, and I’m not one to rally around someone who says that it’s OK to kick me and mine because we don’t have anywhere else to go. Let’s create somewhere else to go.
Only 14 years into his administration. But, actually, I doubt the 79th Congress in 1946 or 80th Congress elected in the Fall of 1946, a GOP landslide, nicknamed the “do nothing Congress” by Truman, would have been up to passing universal health care.
That’s what I’ve been advocating too if, once we’ve killed this bill, we can’t get a better one.
Hi 1murillo,
How do you know that? Because that’s what happened under Clinton? Times have changed. Now if we don’t pass something, they’ll either pass it next year or lose Congress.
Read the above diary and the links I’ve given. not only won’t this bill be perfect it will be terrible. Whether or not this bill fails the insurance companies will still raise prices. if you want to stop that from happening you need to introduce single-payer, or price controls, or a very, very good PO. The present bills won’t stop premium inflation rapidly enough for ordinary families to continue to afford insurance. Mark my words. By 2013 insurance will be 40 – 50% more than it is today. And both businesses and individuals will rebel against those increased costs.
Perhaps times have, but our system of government has not.
Moreover, the idea this issue would be readdressed in 2010 is laughable.
OG, America has been a liberal democracy for quite some time now. Your notion that the United States is not a democracy may stem from the fact that you’re confusing the formal Government type, which is a Republican form of Government, with the type of political system we have, which is a democracy since political authority here, is generally recognized to stem from majority rule, even though there are many exceptions to that principle in our system. Modern Democracies include both formal monarchies and Republics.
That’s neither here nor there. My point was that any of those four Democratic would have gotten a much better bill through Congress than we are looking at now. Obama’s leadership of Congress has been weak and ineffective, and this terrible bill is a monument to his weakness.
With all due respect Jason,
That statement is almost at “death panel” levels of disingenuousness.
The VA is a completely socialized medical system; to say nothing of the fact that it also politically benefits from serving a section of society that serves/served in the military in a culture that is extremely seduced by militarism.
Seriously, the VA? Christ.
Is New Zealand socialized? I thought they were single-payer. I hear that the Canadian system is working increasingly well. But I also hear that right-wingers tell the fairy tale that Canada’s is so good because the people there always come here when they have a difficult problem. When I heard this I laughed at the ridiculousness of this fairy tale.
I know. But if Roosevelt had lived, there wouldn’t have been any Republican Congress in 1946. As for the 14 years into his Administration, Roosevelt was pretty busy until then, wouldn’t you say?
Majority rule?
California has 37,000,000 people or approximately 12% of the US population and 2 Senators. Wyoming has 500,000 people or approximately 0.17% of the US population and 2 Senators.
Theoretically, if the Senators of the 20 least populated states, representing approximately 10% of the US populaton, voted as a block they could stop legislation.
The Senate was not conceived as a democratic institution. The same is true, to a lesser degree, as to the POTUS.
Well, Obama has been pretty busy too over the last 10 months.
Laugh all you want. If this bill is killed, it will be addressed again. On the other hand, if it passes, we won’t get another shot until 2015 or later.
On times and the Government. The formal structure of Government hasn’t changed that much. But the way it works has. Read any introductory book on American History. The Modern American Political System and the way the Government works now are very different even from the system at the beginning of the 20th century, and vastly different from the Government in 1789.
I know all that OG, in fact I write about that kind of stuff all the time. But the fact remains that these days and throughout the 20th century as well, the Government’s legitimacy flows from its claim that majority rule eventually prevails. If people believed this was not the case, the Government would lose its authority and have to rely on naked force.
There’s no comparison between Roosevelt and Obama in this respect. Did you ever read about Roosevelt’s first 100 days?
is new zealand socialized? it appears that what was once a mostly [entirely?] socialized system is now partially privatized, so that it’s beginning to resemble canada a bit more and england a bit less.
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and now you know everything about new zealand that i know! :)
Yes, I have. As I remember FDR didn’t have two wars to contend with. Granted, the economic crisis he faced was much more severe, in fact, it was not a difference in degree from Obama’s, but a difference in kind. But, the fact remains Obama was faced with an economic crisis second only to the one FDR had to confront.
At any rate, Obama has had his hands full.
i read somewhere [lost the link] that lbj so admired the nascent canadian system that he not only modeled medicare after theirs, but used their name for it too. and taiwan so admired our medicare that that’s what they modeled their new program after [except that, like canada, they cover the entire population].
it’s probably fair to say that canadian-style single payer is the most modern and evolved system to date, while still having been around long enough to be thoroughly tested and a lot of the bugs worked out [or at least identified].
yeah, all those canadians coming south for the health care. ha!
i’ve read that most canadians who get treated here are here on vacation [as snowbirds, generally] and fall ill or get injured, rather than crossing the border just for medical care. some smaller communities on the canadian side of the border have contracts with nearby large cities here in the us [windsor, canada/detroit, mi for example] for patients that would otherwise have to travel several hours to a large canadian city.
obama has his hands full, granted, but that’s no excuse for being a closeted republican.
Thanks.
He’s been busy certainly, and my point is that he hasn’t done very well at all.
As the American system gets worse and worse for working people, we’ll see more and more migration to Canada, I think.
A frequently made argument in the Detroit area by conservatives is that “Canadians come here for their health care”, therefore, they must hate their system. The fact of the matter is, there are a number of wealthy Canadians who do cross the border, and the reason is they want what they want, and right now, whereas in Canada it’s illegal to “jump the line and game the system”. The care they insist on getting right away, however, hasn’t been proven effective or necessarily required immediately. The best example is the debate over certain cardiac procedures advertised incessantly by all the major hospital systems state-side. On the other hand, my relatives in Canada get the care they need in a timely fashion, no worries about their level of employment, and they are all ridiculously happy with their system.
In addition, a great article just posted on Open left just increases the stench rising from the Senate :
http://www.openleft.com/diary/16100/senate-optout-public-option-wont-start-until-2014-wont-cover-abortion-procedures
i’m secretly hoping for global warming to speed up. a florida-like climate and the canadian health care system would be an unbeatable duo in my book.
back in the 70s my parents almost moved us all to canada [from south texas] but the ice and snow was a real deterrent.
“being a closeted republican…”
getting warmer.
point taken. :-)
technically, i don’t think it’s rocket science. we’ve got years of research, data and a wealth of expertise. right here in the usa (some of whom were even involved in advising taiwan for example). we have many examples to follow and/or learn from. it’s our broken political system that seems, to me at least, what’s preventing us from having system for universal healthcare that is sane, humane and smart.
p.s. maggie mahar might come up for some criticism of her, um, apparently less than accurate opeds.
completely agree. just wanted to focus on a more basic issue re organizing as a place to start.
Healthcare-NOW!’s Response to Passage of House Health Bill
and pda, and many others — especially at the state level.
jmo, but i think the netroots made a massive massive mistake by aligning with the dem party elite against the progressive grassroots (and doing so without ever consulting with the grassroots or even apparently understanding the basic policy issues involved). for us to really kick ass, imo we have to find a way to work together — netroots and grassroots. doesn’t mean we have to agree on everything, but the purposeful exclusion, mocking and triangulation has caused a lot of harm and imo we have to find a way back to working together.
my 2 cents.
amen to all your most excellent points.
We’ve been through this. Your estimates are, by your own admission, nothing but speculation, barely worth the pixels they’re printed on. But if you want to run on that, fine.
You still haven’t outlined a strategy that *gets to a bill.* You say that the threat of the House blocking reform will get the Senate to play along. What evidence do you have for that? Ben Nelson said today he’d be happy to be the lone Democrat blocking reform. So why would the House threat magically result in a better bill?
Come on lets, you’re smart. Where’s the strategy? It’s not enough for progressives just to say no. You have to outline the hard part, the actual legislating part, if you want to have a responsible strategy to make it better. Otherwise, just killing it without a plan is helping the Republicans and the insurance companies keep the status quo. Remember, Goldman Sachs thinks no health care is the best thing that could happen for the industry. And that’s what your strategy gets us.
Ha, sure, whatever you say. Look at those polls, man. The public option is even more popular than health reform itself in some of them. Yep, the public is surely not organized…
Are public opinion polls useful for anything other than as a counterpoint to politicians who say, “The American people don’t want _________.”
?
I mean, we’re talking about the public here, and the polls almost never include a subject competency preliminary poll, so all the polls really tell you are, “Whose political narrative is more popular right now?” Not actually what the public wants. As a sad state of affairs the bulk of the population isn’t engaged in their education, nor their civic responsibility, and who can blame them?
Nobody has even a remote idea of what specifically a “public option” even is, hence the fact that there’s still question over what it will become. Asking people whether or not they like it, or want it, is pointless without a massive string of qualifiers about specifically what they meant, whether they’re aware of what such a thing actually looks like, and what it will and won’t actually do based on the few proposals currently on the table, etc.
The narrative out of the Democrats, including Obama, has been lofty ideals that pretend that Jacob Hacker’s original idea is what we’re all talking about here. If a person consumed every single major mainstream news source, and stopped there, they’d have no fucking idea what the “public option” we’re plausibly going to get will be, or do.
Oh, and for good measure… Seriously, the VA?
Thanks. It’s always good to get a Canadian-based perspective on this. That’s pretty much the way I see things.
ah yes. let’s look at those polls:
Single-Payer Poll, Survey, and Initiative Results
63% of Americans Can’t Pick the Public Option Out of a Three-Suspect Lineup
“Bait-and-Switch” in the Polls
Right, so now we’re looking at 139,000 more fatalities due to lack of insurance before the PO and the exchange kicks in. The Senate bill extends the immoral band-aid period even further.
You see what’s driving this? The primary reason for the band-aid period is “deficit hawkism” which particularly afflicts Ben Nelson, Joe Lieberman, Mary Landrieu, Blanche Lincoln, Evan Bayh, Max Baucus, Kent Conrad, and a number of other Democrats less often mentioned as a problem in passing hcr. When people insist on getting hcr with 60 votes, they give power to deficit hawkism by empowering these Senators.
The end result is the band-aid period, during which roughly 31,000 people per year will die due to lack of insurance.
i think we have to consider the possibility that deficit hawkism is not the reason for the delay, but rather the rationalization used to justify pro-corporate policies.
I know it’s a deterrent but Vancouver is reasonably temperate, and Toronto is no worse than Buffalo, where I lived for 6 years or so in the ’70s.
Thanks for the quote. As I said: Kill It, It’s the Enemy of the Good. It really is.
I wonder if organizations like Move-On and DFA can ever be trusted again. I’ve cut off my contributions, and, for myself, at least, I’d much rather new organizations spring up. Many of us feel ourselves stuck with the Democratic Party because it’s so hard to get new third parties started. But we’re not stuck with veal pen netroots organizations that have failed us.
We can make new ones spring up pretty much overnight, and I think we ought to do so to establish the importance of these organizations being responsive to what their people want.
people make mistakes all the time (i ought to know! *g*), i don’t think there is any shame in that — what matters is what comes next. do they try to make amends? do they attempt reforms to so that decision making is more democratic and participation more open and real? iow, do they act like grownups? or do they care more about defending their egos?
time will tell.
Thanks for the compliment, Jason.
My estimates are based on guesses about how many people will join the risk pool in the band-aid period. Right now there are 47,000,000 uninsured. I’m guessing that the high risk pool, with its higher premiums and lack of subsidies, plus the increased number covered by Medicaid will result in about 1/3 of those getting covered through one of these instruments on the average over the period from now until the exchange operative date in 2013, leaving about 31,000,000 per year still uncovered. Since 45,000 out of the 47,000,000 die now, I’ve concluded that we can expect 31,000 new deaths per year during the band-aid period. Since the exchange can’t be expected to start on January 1, 2013 due to the inevitable delays, I concluded that the band-aid period would last for 3.5 years and would entail 31,000 x 3.5 or about 108,000 additional fatalities.
That seems like a generous estimate of how effective the high risk pool would be, especially since its associated premium prices will be higher than standard insurance prices without any subsidies to defray these costs. I’m happy to have you disagree with this admittedly conjectural estimate. However, I won’t let you get away with just saying hell, this is guess, so we can ignore it. That’s not good enough because we know that the band-aid period won’t cover all the people that will be covered eventually by the reform bill. So we know that people will be dying at a higher rate during the band-aid period rather than later. Since this is true we all have a responsibility to try to estimate how many will remain uncovered during the band-aid period and how many will die as a result.
You’ve questioned my estimate and that’s fine. But what’s your estimate? Is it a better guess? Does it involve fewer projected fatalities or more? These are critical questions in evaluating this bill. How many people will this Democratic bill leave to Grayson’s Republican solution: “if you get sick, then die quickly.”
You also say:
Are you asking me for a step-by-step strategy that gets to a bill? If so, here’s one.
1) Form a progressive bloc in each House, whose members agree to vote down the present bill, unless it solves the problem of an excessive number of deaths, bankruptcies, and foreclosures due to lack of insurance after a one year period of implementation;
2) Wait until the blue dogs and the Leadership come to you with new proposals
3) Reject every proposal that doesn’t accomplish 1) while pointing out that it doesn’t accomplish 1)
4) When leadership says in response, we don’t have the votes to do that. Say to them that’s your problem. You can use reconciliation or the nuclear option. We don’t care. Ending the death, bankrupcies, and foreclosures is more important to us that legislative procedure
5) When they come and say, if we do this, the bill won’t be deficit neutral, then reply by saying. We don’t care about that. Deficit hawkism is your problem. If it’s so important to you raise taxes on the wealthy to pre-1980 levels. That’s OK with us. Or if you want to run a deficit to do this that’s also OK with us. It will stimulative to the economy and there’s no danger of inflation with demand so low.
6) When they come to you saying is there any kind of bill you’d accept if we think we can’t pass one that will accomplish 1)? Then reply by saying “We’d accept a compromise bill that regulates the insurance companies banning rescissions, lifetime caps, and denials of insurance due to pre-conditions, provided such a bill also prohibited annual increases in insurance costs exceeding the overall rate of inflation.
7) If they say no to a bill that would do 1) or a compromise like 6) then say” Well, OK decide whether you want to do 1) or 6) or lose in 2010 and perhaps in 2012 too. If you say no to 1) and, we’re ouit 6) go make a deal with the Republicans. We’re out of it.
Now, what’s wrong with that as a legislative strategy?
Jason, the polls are rigged.
They don’t distinguish between Medicare for All and a PO and they don’t reflect public opinion of the current PO travesty bills in Congress.
Most of the PO support is, likely, support for Medicare for All, since all of a sudden at the beginning of this year the major polling organizations, which had been showing majority support for single-payer, stopped asking about single-payer and overnight, virtually, started showing majority support for the PO.
Do you really think that these respondents knew what a PO was and how it differed from single-payer? Do you really think they prefer a PO to single-payer? Or do you think that perhaps the new people never polled on the single-payer PO question because they figured that wouldn’t be news because the smart money had taken Medicare for All off the table?
Sure, it’s both. But deficit hawkism itself is important, because it’s the “old-time religion.” The people who mouth its slogans have probably never stopped worshiping at that altar. Either way, we’ve got to argue against the ideology and strip it away to show that the corporatist motive.
No. I think it’s more than just a mistake. It’s also the inability to admit a mistake when you know you’ve made one.
From where I sit, I think that Move-on knew or should have known it had made a mistake when the first House bill with a very weak PO came out of committee. At that point they should have realized that the PO line had betrayed the interests of their supporters resulted in a very weak PO bill; and then they should immediately have gone the other way. Instead, they stayed in the veal pen, and went right down the line to this day. This says that like other veal pen organizations, they’ve been captured and have lost independence.
Ah, got it, polls are rigged. Good
excuseexplanation.Why would Ben Nelson vote for cloture on something much, much better? Why would Joe Lieberman? Who would Blanche Lincoln? Mary Landrieu? Mark Pryor? Max Baucus? Mark Begich? John Warner? Evan Bayh? Bill Nelson? Kent Conrad?
You probably don’t even have 50 votes for something that’s a leap and a bound better. So reconciliation is out, too.
You really consider this a strong reply to mine? Why should progressives care about 60 votes? That’s Reid’s worry. If he can’t get that he can use reconciliation. You say there may not be even 50 votes for reconciliation for a really good bill? Maybe so. But when confronted with the probability of no legislation at all, I think there will be 50 votes for something progressives can live with. Remember that from the viewpoint of my legislative strategy, the bar is not really that high. Are you really claiming there won’t be 50 votes for a regulatory bill? I have a hard time believing that one. What will Amy Klobuchar and Claire McCaskill and others like them say? It wasn’t fair to the insurance companies? Ben Nelson may say that; but they won’t. No way we lose ten votes on a regulatory bill.
Yeah, there are 50 votes for a regulatory bill I’m sure. That kind of bill does nothing for the uninsured and folks who can’t afford care, which you seem to care soooooo much about.
Lets, you lost. Single payer does not have the support to pass. The hypothetical most-robust-public-option-ever does not have the votes to pass. That’s reality.
What does, in fact, have the votes to pass is a bill like what we’re seeing. A bill that would give subsidies to people so they can finally afford insurance. A bill that gives us a real, functioning public option that would keep premiums down – so says the CBO – and would and could be expanded later, along with the exchange, to keep things going. It’s also a regulatory bill that will stop insurance company abuses.
It ain’t perfect, but it’s not a bad bill, it certainly doesn’t make things worse, and it should, in fact, be passed. And what gets me so much about diaries like this is that people who say they’re for reform are more than happy to join with Republicans and block an historic bill, a bill that *will not* come around again for 10-20 years.
In another world, single payer could have passed, and believe me, I would have cheered it on. Right now, it can’t, nor can the-most-progressive-bill-short-of-single-payer. We should work towards passing those bills. But you don’t have to work to destroy what we’ve got going now, something that is indeed objectively a step forward.
The kill the bill stuff makes little sense, doesn’t do much to build your movement, gives comfort to our common enemies, and gets us no closer to what you (and I, in a more perfect world) would like to see.
But until that fact sinks in, I doubt more progressive reforms are going to get very far…
Jason, That’s a good summary of your position, but it’s refutation is above in the many comments supporting my position in this thread and in this diary, itself.
It’s also in other diaries I’ve done recently here, here, here, and here. There’s no need for me to repeat or even summarize my arguments.
The proof is in the pudding and we’ll see in the next few years who is closer to the truth about the balance of benefits and costs in this bill, provided, of course, if it passes.
Luckily for us, it will likely pass, over your objections.
I really wish there was a good short-term strategy for getting something much more progressive. If there was, I’d be all over it. There isn’t, or not that I’ve seen, and so we’ll have to get a few gains we can get (getting rid of Stupak, for example), and leave the rest for another day.
I wish you’d realize this. I know it’s tough, and I know writing posts like this feel really great. But, in a small way, it’s not helpful. Perhaps, for the good of the country, you’ll reconsider.
didn’t read the link, did you?
Of course I read the link. If you really think you didn’t get what you wanted out of reform because the polls were rigged, that explains a ton.
i seriously doubt you read the bill or the cbo and cms reports.
your comments (for example, “you lost”) make it quite clear how you see this — as a game and not as a human rights issue. and not even a game that requires you to play by the rules of intellectual honesty or fair play.
you may have forgotten, but i have not — your claim last april when i pressed you about the plan you were selling:
JasonRosenbaum April 14th, 2009 at 5:44 pm:
from your link, HCAN’s STATEMENT OF COMMON PURPOSE
no one left out? what a load of crap.
i never said any such thing. i challenged your claim @213 with links to supporting evidence. that is all.
letsgetitdone, thank you very much for your post and, regardless of where i agree or disagree, for making your arguments clearly, fairly and honestly through this very long thread. i look forward to your next post.
Ah, I see, that’s your objection? Fair enough. We’ll be pushing to cover the remaining 6% if that makes you happy. We might get some or all of them, too. But if we don’t it doesn’t make this a bad bill.
Hi Jason, I really thought this last reply of yours was very over the top and really arrogant, especially given the failure of your organization and its allies to produce a health care reform with anything like Jacob Hacker’s original PO.
However, I don’t think it would be constructive to reply in very much detail. Instead, I’ll just say that the difference between you and I is that you evidently think that the positives coming out of this bill are greater than its negatives and the balance of these is better than defeating this bill. I feel differently. On balance I think this bill does more negatives than positives and that it is better to defeat it and let the pressure for reform build.
Given my assessment of the situation I can’t very well reconsider for the good of the country, can I? In fact, given my beliefs, I’d really be remiss if I didn’t follow your example and ask you to reconsider. So consider this a request politely asking HCAN and yourself to consider its ill-advised support for this terrible bill.
Finally, on not being helpful, it may be true that, in a small way, my diaries are not helpful to the cause of real health care reform. However, I think it’s certainly true that not a single thing you PO folks have done throughout this whole year has been helpful to that cause. On the contrary, all you’ve done has been to divert support from the long-term preference of progressives for Medicare for All, and therefore, in my view you and yours have not been helpful in a very big way. And what have many progressives gotten from following you and making this trade-off?
Nothing but a bill that will allow the American insurance system to continue to kill people in large numbers every year, because it won’t cover them. And even 10 years from now, and even if this bill is implemented in such a way that the projections of the CBO work out exactly as specified, we will still have 11,000 deaths annually, almost four 9/11′s every year, due to the compromise that you want progressives in Congress to vote for right now.
HCAN and Jason are supporting a bill that will likely leave 31,000,000 uncovered during the band-aid period.
Thank you, selise, and thank you also for your vigorous contributions to the discussion. My next one will be soon.
Jason, apart from the fact, that HCAN’s principles call for covering everyone, and that your support for this bill is therefore conflicts with your principles, I’d like to remind you of some facts:
1) Right now, 15.3% of our people are uninsured.
2) For the first 3.5 years and assuming population increase from now until then of about 7,000,000, and also assuming that increases in Medicaid and high risk pool coverage amount to 16,000,000 people. When the exchange goes public you’ll still have almost 10% uncovered, or 31,000,000
3)By 2019, and assuming our population increases to 321,000,000, 6% uncovered is still more than 18 million Americans — hardly everybody in, and nobody out.
Your snarky language:
is very inappropriate considering that at every stage of its implementation between now and 2019, this bill will leave millions uncovered, and that for every million uncovered, we can expect roughly one thousand deaths. This isn’t about making selise or myself unhappy. It’s about not leaving Americans to Grayson’s Republican solution: “don’t get sick, but, if you do, then die quickly.”
i’d just like to quote nyceve from july 2008 when moveon’s support for hcan was announced.
seems to me that nyceve and Rose Ann DeMoro had is exactly right over a year ago.
well, except for the part about hcan not even bothering to live up to their own principles (or to my knowledge announcing their original principles were not longer operational)
it does, however, appear to make your previous claim about not supporting a bill that did not live up to your stated principles a damn lie.
missing link:
http://www.nyceve.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/10/75316/4802/142/549056
or even apparently understanding the basic policy issues involved
yep, this was huge. also what you said about the netroots aligning with the dem party elites is too true.
So why did nyceve join Marcy and Jane in Public Option please!?
i don’t know, but the previous statement is not necessarily in contradiction with that action. the quote was just meant as comment on hcan and their strategy.i’d love to know what nyceve is thinking now, because i’ve followed her diaries for years and i have a ton of respect for her judgement.
anyway, some background:
http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/23/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-john-geyman-md-do-not-resuscitate/#comment-1941603
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2009/7/25/8516/92601/43#c43
and some current comments:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/11/12/803738/-HCR-reality-check:-Clueless-Democrats-and-skyrocketing-premiums
water under the bridge now, but at least we can live and learn.
Thanks for the links. I know she’s great, and I’ve written that we have to expect average premium increases of 40-50% over the next few years myself, and that the increase is one of the reasons why Dems will get into control.
You know that years ago we knew that price controls sometimes worked very well. I think insurance is one of those areas. Just a simple bill stopping the industry from raising prices any more than the genera rate of inflation would stop them in their tracks. Yet no progressives are proposing this. What a gutless bunch!
The mystery remains for me. Why did nyceve go along with taking Medicare for All off the table?
In what way does this bill make things worse? You say the negatives outweigh the positives. Ok. What negatives?
And don’t tell me that it leaves people uncovered. That’s the status-quo right now. Those people will still be uncovered without reform. I’d agree on an absolute level it’s a negative, but this bill certainly doesn’t make it worse.
So what negatives?
here’s one for you: At The Request of AHIP, Senate Bill Guts State Health Insurance Regulations
your ignorance of the negatives does not mean they don’t exist. you might try doing some reading and thinking for yourself in addition to the talking points you are paid to repeat.
nyceve on throwing her support to hcan and the public option. not sure when she joined pop.
insurance is not health care.
forcing people to buy insurance that is so expensive that they don’t then have enough money left over to USE that insurance is not an improvement. like the massachusetts ‘reform’ this ‘reform’ will provide care for some, but make it unaffordable for others. you have not demonstrated that the number of people who will get the care they need is greater than the number of people who will forgo the care they need.
hard to count people who aren’t getting care they need, but surveys in massachusetts suggest that this group is about twice the size of the group who did gain access to real care.
Jason, Answered in this new thread here.
Jason gives his answer here.
Thanks, hipparchia.
Is there good evidence that the Massachusetts reform actually decreased the percentage of people covered by insurance? Or is it the case that the percentage covered increases, but the percentage who actually get care decreases because of the high cost of deductibles and co-pays?
no, mass reform increased the number of people with insurance, lowering their uninsured rate from an estimated 9-10% to an estimated 3-5%, depending on who you ask.
but the reform was part of ‘reforming’ medicaid too, and so money that had previously gone to free care for the very poor was partially diverted to subsidies for the less poor to buy insurance, and the very poor have had to pay [what looks like small amounts to most of the rest of us] for their formerly free care. additionally, the premiums have been high enough, even with subsidies, that many formerly-uninsured people are struggling to pay for CARE now that they’re putting lots of their money into premiums. again, these numbers vary depending on which source you look at.
pnhp on mass reform
kaiser family foundation on mass reform
some other stuff about the mass reform can be found by poking around here. they’ve recently redesigned their site so i no longer know where on the site i found some of the information i used to have.
Thanks hipparchia.