It’s important to sharply distinguish strategy from tactics in health care reform. I think strategy is about your goal and overall orientation toward getting health care reform, while tactics are about the low-level things you do to get from point-to-point in getting the strategy implemented. Tactics are influenced by strategy in the sense that tactics need always to be evaluated from the viewpoint of whether they advance strategy or not. If they don’t they’re counter-productive and need to be put aside in favor of other tactics.
In my view, much of the health care reform movement made a great strategic error in this fight. And that error was to make the strategic goal a Public Option (PO) solution, rather than to make it a Medicare for All solution. That error has shaped everything else that much of the health care reform movement has done for the last year, and is the one thing primarily responsible for the sorry outcome we have on our hands now in both Houses of Congresses. I think we have to learn from the experience of the past ten months and stop boosting the PO, even a very strong PO, as if it were a strategic goal. Medicare for All, should be our standard, and we should evaluate our success or failure in political activity by how far we’ve moved the ball toward this goal, not by how far we’ve moved the ball toward getting a PO. The PO, even a Jacob Hacker-type PO, is at best a tactic relative to the overall strategic goal of getting to Medicare for All, and we should never forget that, or let other people forget that. Since it is a tactic, we should be treating it as a tactic, something we resort to in order to overcome blocking or resistance, not something we pre-compromise on, before even testing the strength of resistance to our efforts to get something better.
I think, also, that treating the PO, as if it were our strategic goal, was a very bad tactic. It did not elicit the limited opposition and pragmatic, but useful compromise for our side, that many progressives anticipated, and talked about as a benefit of going the PO route, and its messaging has been, and still is, horribly confusing and disingenuous. It has elicited all kinds of fears from the public that Medicare for All would never have elicited.
Since tactics are not independent of strategy, but are always shaped in the context of it, adopting the PO as a strategic goal has shaped our tactics, by constraining us from doing some things. We could never call on a mass movement to support us in getting health care reform, because who can really get excited over a PO that won’t produce universal coverage? We could never develop simple messaging that was honest, because all the simple verities about stopping the fatalities, providing universal coverage, making things really affordable, and really saving money for the country, don’t really apply to the PO plans we’ve been seeing in House and Senate bills. Even now, nearing the end of the current legislative process, we are seeing simple messaging about the great “victory,” a bill with a shrunken PO, that is not honest, since it greatly exaggerates the expected positive effects of the legislation, while ignoring its many downsides.
The kinds of claims we are seeing now from Democrats in Congress would be honest justifications for Medicare for All, if Congress were passing HR 676, but they are dishonest ones for the PO plans we are seeing in HR 3962 and Harry Reid’s new Senate compromise. And who can get excited and fight hard while using messages that you know are not true? Maybe conservative apparatchiks can do that, but liberals and progressives find that very hard. They need to believe in what they are doing, and what they are saying.
I agree with Jane Hamsher that Medicare for All supporters, ought to ask what they could have done differently to have produced more success for their favored alternative, but I think an important related question is what can Medicare for All reform advocates do differently now? What can give a different result that is closer to the strategic goal we’re pursuing? And I think the answer to that at the level of high-level tactics is that we have to build a mass movement in the background of what we do day-to-day, because without that we aren’t going to get Medicare for All through the Congress. Some groups out there are trying to build that movement, and it may be gaining steam. This terrible health care reform bill will fuel the movement for Medicare for All, whether or not it passes, but realistically, I don’t think that movement will be a factor for a few years at the earliest. So what do we do now day-to-day?
I think we ought to pressure progressive politicians in the House and the Senate to become movement politicians. Movement politics is different from conventional politics, and movement politicians often have to use different tactics because they are trying to get principles adopted, and so they have to defend those principles, and not easily compromise them except perhaps at the end of a lengthy legislative process, when there is no other alternative, and they can get something very, very valuable for the compromise. It’s important to get people to understand that movement politics is not about not compromising. Instead it’s about not pre-compromising, or abandoning one’s strategic goal, or making compromises that mortgage the future of movement possibilities. One of the worst things about the current House bill is that it risks wholesale rejection by the public of the very idea that support of progressives and Democrats can really help them against the insurance companies, and in getting affordable health care. That’s why this bill must be killed. It has been oversold, and the backlash from it is very dangerous to the whole health care reform movement.
We need to persuade, cajole, urge, threaten, and organize their constituents to get our Congress people to become movement politicians. We have to call on them to believe again, and rip the hell out of them when they act as if they don’t. When they produce a piece of crap legislation we need to not be balanced and moderate in cataloging the pros and cons of the legislation in two matching lists. We have to evaluate their legislation from the point of view of the principles and strategic goals of our movement, and we need to call a spade a spade if their legislation gives up core principles, gets us no closer to our strategic goals, and even falls short from a moral point of view.
Progressive politicians in Congress are not acting like movement politicians who are coming from principle, they are acting like politicians trying to get something, anything, done at any cost as long as it carries the health care reform label. This may seem practical, because “the perfect is the enemy of the good,” and they don’t want to go against their leadership and their President, but in the long run, it’s a tactic that won’t get them and us to Medicare for All, because a) it makes them look like corrupt politicians, and b) no one will take Medicare for All seriously, unless its advocates are willing to make everyone pay a price for trying to marginalize their strategic goal, and laugh at it in the legislative process.
In my view, the first thing for Medicare for All advocates in Congress to do is to defeat any other health care reform bill that either 1) doesn’t provide a clear possibility of getting to Medicare for All in a reasonable time, or 2) threatens the political prospects for getting further reforms that will provide that clear possibility. There are currently, 87 co-sponsors of HR 676 in the House. That many representatives would have blocked any health care reform bill that wasn’t Medicare for All the first time around if they were playing movement politics. Unfortunately, they were playing at merely symbolic stuff – kabuki, in their co-sponsorship, not making a real commitment to HR 676.
Had those progressives put themselves on the line and made the leadership and the Administration taste defeat for trying to marginalize HR 676, people wouldn’t laugh at Medicare for All, or progressives anymore. Instead the leadership and the Administration would start to bargain, and the progressives would have had an opportunity to drive a hard one. That bargain could have ensured 1) or 2) above, even if the resulting bill was no more than something like ending all insurance company abuses and stopping there, leaving the future unconstrained for a much more effective health care reform bill than we are contemplating now.
In writing all of this, I’m painfully aware of not answering the question: “yes, but what do we do right now?” I think the answer to this is implied in what I’ve already said. It is to do everything we can to kill the bills now emerging from the House and the Senate. First in the Senate, and if that fails, then turning again to the House to once again try to get enough of the progressives to stand up to the leadership and vote against it, when it comes out of conference. For health care reform that won’t mortgage the future, we need to kill these bills, and in the process we need to get the Democrats and the progressives to stop being less than honest about what they do and what they don’t do. Then, when the leadership and the Administration goes back to the drawing board, which they certainly would very soon, we would need to go back to HR 676, not compromise until the end of the process when the leadership and the Administration need progressive votes to put it over, and then adhere to principles 1) and 2) above in negotiating any compromise.
If we do these things, I think we’ll get a much better bill than we have now. It won’t be perfect, since “the perfect is the enemy of the good,” and nothing in this whole health care reform debate has been “perfect.” But even though it will fall short of perfection, it will be much closer to being “good” than what we have now. And the truth is that what we have now, is not just "not perfect." It is not good at all. It leaves too many to enjoy that well-known Republican solution to health care: “Don’t get sick. But if you do, then die quickly.”
(Also posted at the Alllifeisproblemsolving blog where there may be more comments)



177 Comments







As usual Let’s, you elucidate the situation with diamond clarity. I wish I had your faith and purposeful attitude. But I don’t. Everything we talked about months ago as likely scenarios has come to pass. The Congressional Democratic Party has raised the gun to its temple with these mandates, out of control costs, and anemic PO groaning under the weight of our country’s sickest patients. But the legislators look like people who have been trapped in a convenience store with a crazed gunmen and THEY JUST WANT OUT.
Still, thanks for the post. Realistic or not you’re always kickin for that 60 yard field goal. G’night.
Thanks GDC707, As you know, every once in awhile there is a 60 yard field goal. And as long as you’re still about 48 yards away, and you have no more time left to get any closer, you have to keep trying to kick it. Sleep well.
Thank, lets. Wonderfully and clearly said. Universal coverage for all. That is the prize to keep our eyes on. And the progressives did not stay on that.
Present public option is puny. 2% of the citizenry will be able to subscribe to it, that’s 6 million out of 300 million. And it will be the sickest people. And it will not be competitive since it is so small a grouping there will not be the negotiating power for terms. Declared not competitive. And the insurance companies will enjoy premiums from the healthier and younger groupings of the population that are not covered by po, medicare and va.
I think of that movie Bridge on the River Kwai, and how building the Bridge was a great morale raising goal for the POWs led by Alec Guinness. But at the end, Guiness is blinded by the bridge as the end all and almost doesn’t get in time that the bridge is now being abused by the enemy and has to be blown up. We need “brinksmanship”. The original plan of public option has been mannipulated about. And now brinksmanship in attitude is required and let’s hope leadership will adjust.
I just had a conversation with someone who was very argumentative about single payer as a prototype but then we both agreed on universal health care for all … and that was important. That should be the starting point. Let a mature Congress, with empathy, discuss how we get there, what wonderful ideas to pick from among all the other industrial nations that have it, some who borrowed our own Medicare system to establish theirs. But, no, how could that happen with crazy Repubs jumping up and down doing Redscare fear mongering. And they enjoy government-subsidized Cadillac plans, those hypocrits.
The media is coming out strong for the historic nature of this bill, as are the reps congratulating themselves. I guess this is how it works. Encourage citizenry denial of reality.
Thanks lib. We both know they won’t be able to escape from reality for very long this time. It shouldn’t take the public longer than 6 months to learn that 1) They ain’t got no PO and won’t have one until 2013 or 2014, and not even then if they’re not uninsured, and 2) that the high-risk pool isn’t something that most of them will be able to afford. Pity the Dems in November 2010 and pity us too, because we’re about to get more Republican BS in spades.
lets, I need a recommendation for a base camp website that has support for single payer action. Do you know what might be a good one? To keep my morale and spirit up for the single payer movement and keep my own efforts from dragging. I don’t think mainline FDL and the PO progressives can bring themselves to rally for S703 or even going after a toxic and dangerous bill that is now in play. I appreciate membership here, but I could use that extra boost and also would like a place to refer people to go to to join up. I will start scouting around. I visit SPM4A sites but not for blogging, just for info.
Mornin’ lib,
Not sure what you mean by “base camp website.”
But, how about:
http://mobilizeforhealthcare.org/
or:
http://www.prosperityagenda.us/
or:
http://www.madashelldoctors.com/
or:
http://www.medicareforall.org/pages/Home
Hope at least one of these is what you’re looking for.
thanks, lets. will give them a shot!
Besides the fact that progressives != single payer supporters, yeah, they would still laugh.
Beyond the tactic, the self-defeating tactic, of killing the bill, however, this was a well thought-out piece. Get rid of that tactic and you’ve got something you can move forward on that will actually build your power and your allies, instead of alienate yourself further.
Sorry Jason, We’ve already been over this here, and in related comments on that thread. I don’t see a new argument from you here.
Killing this bill is not just a tactic with me. I want to kill it because I think, given its consequences that it’s an immoral bill. I also think that killing it will lead to much better results over the next few years than voting for it.
This is even more true than when I began this argument as you can see from reviewing Jonathan Walker’s analysis here, as well as additional blogs on each of the individual problems with the bill.
As I noted in the thread, what about this bill makes the status quo worse?
I appreciate that you feel for the people who may be left uncovered in the interim period, though your estimates are merely guesses. How does killing a bill get those people covered, given that it would be impossible to pass a radically different bill in less than a few years and it would likely kill reform, period.
As for the Senate bill, Jon hits a lot of things on the head, we shall see what happens when it meets the House bill in conference.
Your argument that we could kill something. As in vote it down. And then pick up with something new. That shows a delusional view of how the legislative process works, how the media works, and how Washington, unfortunately, works. As such, your argument the same one the right wing is making.
As I said above, the rest of this piece is well thought-out. This tactic, however, is self-defeating and won’t help build the movement you need.
i guess you didn’t even bother to check back for a response, because you would have seen the example i left for you:
Ah, thanks! Being completely serious, too, this is indeed an objection.
This is a problem, nd something that’s not in the House bill. Obviously, that’s how we’d like conference to go as well.
But the question is: if it doesn’t go that way, will you suddenly join us and pressure Congress at the last minute to kill the bill, or will you stay in the veal pen?
It actually really depends what the minimum benefit standard is. The selling of health care across state lines, subject to minimum federal regulation, is only a problem if that federal minimum is too low. That language is still being set, but I’ve yet to see exactly what is covered now that won’t be covered under the federal standard. As in, I’m not convinced it’s a race to the bottom.
That said, that provision is probably better left out.
C’mon Jason, Everytime a provision like this has been put into a bill before, it has created a race to the bottom. Why should it be different this time?
Ouch!
So there are only two positions to be coming from? And if you don’t tow the Obama line you are with the wingnuts? An entire single payer movement is being ignored.
Would that FDL and progressives made “universal health care” the buzz phrase instead of “public option”. They did such a good job making “public option” the talking point, the ultimate moral goal was ironically and tragically eclipsed by what lets says started out as a “tactic” but became its own strategy that excluded those of us working on universal health care as a direct path, not the pragmatic detouring one.
You saying there is not enough time now … after all that time and energy went for pressuring a corrupt Congress, and confusing the public who never really grasped what the heck public option was but would have responded, the ones not entirely allergic to empathy, to the concept of universal coverage.
I don’t believe all the citizenry is so mean-spirited that coverage for immigrants and abortion rights would outrage them. Just the crazed loud mouths, manipulated by the corporatists of the Repub party.
But the loudmouths and Repubs who were obstructionists were also a COVER for Obama and for Congress, like maybe 99% of it, who wanted to reward thair corporate mentors but still talk the talk to their progressive and independent constituency. It has worked. Now they walk away and congratulate themselves and the media spins that this unsusainable bill when it needs to be tweaked a lot, will be tweaked pro corporation and anti-citizen.
If Obama wasn’t selling out to corporations, he wouldn’t have taken single payer off the table immediately. That was insulting and clear evidence that he was not fighting the good fight for the common good.
I think there is a productive role single payer supporters can play now that it’s clear single payer isn’t happening this round. Most of lets post above gets to that, in fact. The talk about movement politicians and pre-compromise is right on, in my estimation, and a worthy goal for you all to work on.
It’s this kill the bill thing that seems to undermine all the bridge building, cajoling, and pressuring that lets wants to do. It’s a tactic at odds with the rest of the excellent piece.
Jason, the idea that one ought never to kill a bill must be a consequence of someone’s too prolonged exposure to Norman Vincent Peale’s “power of positive thinking.” Let’s junk the bromides and get to why you think the following is true.
Why does it undermine that? Sometimes when you’re negotiating with people you have to hit them hard up-side the head to get their attention. I think that’s what progressives need to do. Why are you so opposed to exercising “The Progressive Power of No”?
Thanks, Jason, but I see the Lucy and the football betrayals from Congress and Obama to progressive goals insulting and in need of being confronted publicly about this bill.
So, no “robust” public option. Not even close. Robust? 2% of the population only is eligible. For sickest patients to take the heavy lifting to a degree off the profiteer corporations? May be more expensive in the end, the public option program?
Is that okay with the progressives, let alone the single payer medicare for all people? The puny size of po?
Oh well. Like they did their best? Our Congress, both sides? Obstructionists on the Repub side and the Dems who like Obama have no serious interest in universal health care. They have their dream coverage, but Americans… so sorry. They have their financed campaign coffers now. So they will be able to run and win and return to wimp out again for another four years?
And now Obama and company will carry on the wars, and the corporate profiteers will rake it in on that score, too.
And with the banks and the foreclosures and the credit card profiteering. The corporate machine becomes even more monstrous, with all the more political puppets at its beck and call.
That the citizenry should eat sh*t and smile or not for what they did and are doing? And how much will $57,000 a day Helmsley of United Health make as soon as the new bill kicks in. Only going higher and higher.
They could have made the bill sustainable and clearer and UNIVERSAL but then again they couldn’t because they sold out and have been selling out to corporate interests and corporations are going to get fatter and stronger thanks to the bill. Will be all the more entrenched.
Do you think it is going to get easier for future generations to take a shot at corporate control of our government or harder? We are not on the path to pushing them back. They just got stronger. And if we don’t make a stink about this now, call them out loudly and get the rest of the citizenry to take note, we are abetting the problem.
Why wasn’t “universal health care” the talking point, not the “public option”?
And not a squawk from the citizenry? The teabaggers go nuts over nothing. And we as progressives get that the fix was and is in so deeply and horrifyingly but protesting the compromised product won’t be part of the strategy?
We are a corporate-run government. We had a shot at fiscal recovery by firing the vendors. Of universal health care as a human right. That is a moment worth clearly addressing, mourning and getting angry about.
Bernie Sanders is presenting S703. Not to lift a finger to encourage the single payer talking the talk people to do their symbolic on the record voting for that, so as not to upset conservatives and corporate bribers. I would like to see them walk the walk for even a sec on the talk from one side of their mouths at least.
And I wonder about po progressives. So to shrug the whole thing off. Not to have universal health care, I thought that was our umbrella goal, not the po. As lets said, the strategy should have been universal health care, not the po. The eyes should have been om universality as the prize. The citizenry didn’t even hear about that very much. It wasn’t encouraged or celebrated as part of the “moral imagination” for this country.
No, ’cause Obama took it off the table, and the veal pen dutifully followed, resulting in a PO program in the Senate bill that is projected to cover 4 million people 10 years from now. Great work, PO folks, you did the insurance industry’s work for them.
While I agree, lib, I’d also like to make the more general point, that this is a pattern we always see in framing. People operate according to the rule that they just won’t talk about some decision alternatives they don’t think are appropriate for one or another reason. if and only if, they think they can get away with marginalizing those alternatives. Obama does it all the time. But so do many progressives in their decision making.
Part of this is the orientation to action rather than inquiry. Practical politics is about action, so even when considering alternatives in decision making there’s a tendency to want to minimize alternatives, and this is done by making quick and often intuitive and unconsidered judgments about which alternatives aren’t politically feasible. People who think they’re the political cognoscenti do this all the time and then tell the rest of us that we’re “delusional” if we think that the alternatives they excluded may have been politically feasible.
This is a kind of intellectual tyranny and appeal to their own authority that the self-appointed cognoscenti make at the expense of the rest of us. It is one of the ways in which they magnify their political influence, and it is also one of the ways in which political decision making goes awry, because, often, the alternatives that are excluded, as in the case of some of the “off the table” stimulus proposals of last spring, are the right alternatives for solving a problem, while the “on the table” centrist proposals that get adopted are often the ones that only get one into a deeper mess.
This is what makes this HCR debate so painful for liberals. We have to fight Repugs and at least half of the Democratic Party, including the only one who could have insisted on a strong bill. That latter would have been Obama. I have a feeling he thinks he is making great strides in changing the country, but any objective evaluation of his performance would indicate that he only gives lip service to a new America. If he actually knew how he is destroying the change movement in this country, I would like to think he would change. But I don’t think he sees it. He can’t even figure out how to apply the constitution to the enemy combatant problem. He’s not stupid, he’s just unenlightened and he may be the worst person we could have elected president because he is squandering a golden opportunity.
cb, I can’t agree that he was the worst person. I still think it would a lot worse with McCain, and, though I’m not sure, I also still think that it would have been just as Clintonite under Hillary. In fact, I think we have the third term of Bill Clinton right now.
There was no chance for us to select another person who might have been on our side. Given the way the country sees things, Dennis couldn’t have been elected. In hindsight Edwards would have been a disaster, so Obama was probably our best electable possibility. He’s disappointed us, so now we have to get the most we can by telling him no when he needs something. Meanwhile, we need to develop a new generation of progressive politicians who are a good deal more militant than this generation.
In my view he is the worst because of his liberal affiliations. It is as if we actually do have a Manchurian candidate readying to blow up our best and possibly only chance for big chnage in the next 10 years. Its tragic, and I don’t think he understands how imperative it is to do big things now. The country and the world are teetering on an economic and environmental catastrophic brink and BO is blissfully unaware. His stance on FISA should have been my first clue that he was just another leming in the Democratic Power Base.
Hi cb, I guess I’m not sure how long those “liberal affiliations” will be viable given his continuous pissing off of the base.
cb, I’m not as forgiving as lets on Obama. As far as I am concerned, he is the Trojan Horse that 80 million people got conned by. Lost to the corporate matrix and status-quo-corrupt and exceptional-elitist political and military matrix.
But the corporate stranglehold on this country and government is so strong, could anyone with a moral compass get to that high office? Those who deregulated us are running things financially. Those who protect the military industrial complex, Robert Gates for example who was around puffing up the specter of a dangerous Russia so long ago, whereby he even disinformed about NIE estimates to enhance the military budget back then. The monster military industrial complex.
I worked for Edwards. At the end I worked for Obama cuz of Hillary’s militarism. Ironic. But all that generalized rhetoric made me uncomfortable. Edwards was specific about what his reforms were. Obama’s “change talk” was generalized and so much corporate media hype and branding, should have guessed where his loyalty would go.
lib, I’m not forgiving about Obama. What did I say that made you conclude I was?
sorry, lets, it was a respectful judgment from me, who lets her emotions/intuition rule judgment at times.
I thought you were presenting Obama as more naive than me from the get of of being Prez, in his going bipartisan so early in terms of negotiations. And I assumed you saw more potential perhaps for him waking up. I would love to believe that. Maybe I was projecting. But then I look at his priorities and to whom he is delegating power to, and I feel so disappointed and embittered.
I guess I thought my calling him a sell-out and you talking about his action and pragmatic political framing was a softer attitude. But maybe not as I reread:
Dont know, lib. I’m about as disappointed in him as I can be, and have come down to thinking that whatever we get out of this Administration will be through forced concessions. I think that’s why I keep advocating the “no” legislative tactics. I have no faith that anything else will work with him for anything more than very marginal games.
Hello again, Jason, my friendly, most vigorous, and persistent critic. You say:
Well, given the status quo, more and more pressure is building on politicians for meaningful hcr. In the near future, if nothing is done, the pressure would build to such a degree that something will have to be done about the fatalities, bankruptcies and foreclosures, that actually solves these problems. This bill makes the status quo worse by introducing a band-aid period of 3.5 to 4.5 years in which all further reform would, realistically, be blocked by calls to give the bill a chance to work. From my point of view, this is incredibly damaging in terms of increased deaths, bankruptcies, and foreclosures, and is just unacceptable to me.
There are other things that are worse than the status quo: individual mandates, the possibility of employer mandates (the wrong direction in my view), making the insurance market national so that state regulations can be circumvented, Stupak language ending coverage of abortions, you know the list as well as I. However, the thing I hate the most is the band-aid period and its likely freezing of further reform. I don’t understand why you and others are not really angry about this period and about the blatant prioritization of deficit hawkism over people’s health.
I know that others here have criticized the band-aid period and said they are opposed to it. But it doesn’t seem to me that the passion and willingness to fight to end this exists in the same measure as it does to get rid of State opt-outs, Stupak, and some of the other negative features. Why aren’t you folks fighting mad about the band-aid period. Again, I just don’t understand this, given the fatalities that are likely to occur solely due to the band-aid period and its relative ineffectiveness in cutting down on the number of uninsured, fatalities, bankruptcies, and foreclosures.
On my guesses. I must repeat again, that if you disagree with these guesses, then let’s have of your own or HCAN’s. Why are you ignoring the issue of how many fatalities are likely to occur in the band-aid period or thereafter as a result of the holes in the coverage provided by these bills? I think I know why, but your failure to provide guesses, whether or not they disagree with my own is a glaring gap in your analysis of the effects of the present bills. We’ve gone round and round on these estimates of mine at least 4 or 5 times now. If you really disagree with my estimates of likely fatalities, then where are your counter estimates? How many people do you think will die between now and the operational date of the exchange if a compromise bill with a band-aid period is passed?
On how killing the bill helps, I’m afraid I’m pretty certain that you’re wrong about this being our only chance to pass reform. If reform gets killed now, I think it will be back next year with a vengeance: with demonstrations, with civil disobedience, with closings of insurance company offices, with pressure for price controls and heavy regulation, and with growing support for Medicare for All. You ought to welcome all that. In fact, you ought to be facilitating it. It will be a much better environment for HCAN to negotiate a really good PO compromise. A few months of rage punctuated by some really big demonstrations, should be more than enough to make the insurance company bullies start playing CYA.
Not sure how to take this. Does it mean that if the band-aid period satys in you’ll support killing the bill when it comes back to both Houses after the Conference?
There you go again, labeling what I’m saying. Neither of us has a monopoly on the ability to predict reality; and if you, HCAN, and your veal pen associates were so good at that, the bills being considered in Congress now wouldn’t be as terrible as they are now.
I’ve said this many times here, but I’m convinced it’s flat out true. If everyone had gotten behind John Conyers’ enhanced Medicare for All last January and just insisted on that bill, we’d be a lot closer to a good reform than we are now, even if we couldn’t make it to Medicare for All in the end. You folks botched both the strategy and tactics of negotiation by pre-compromising, and the proof of that is in the pudding. You have no basis at all for calling me delusional after the way your own judgments have worked out over the past year.
Ah, got it, the Lenin (I think) style of organizing. We need to make it way worse before we can *really* fix it. Nice.
To add, we have a fundamental disagreement here. You think that by killing this bill, pressure will be so great that they’ll have to do something better next time. I think that’s crazy. I doubt I’ll change your mind, but I’ll probably keep pointing it out, for the benefit of the readers, who can judge for themselves.
Fair enough, but I’d suggest that if you want to be more persuasive you need to provide a few theories about how those who would like to make the issue go away will be able to do it in the face of a rapidly worsening problem. I mean people are dying by the thousands, getting bankrupted by the millions, and getting 100% increases in their insurance rates out there.
I don’t deny the problem, I’m simply pointing out you lack a workable solution.
Right, but you’re not explaining why you think what I’m suggesting is unworkable. You seem to just expect everybody to take your word for that. Unfortunately,
I’m not much for appeals to personal authority this year (or in any year for that matter), one of my many great failings. So, again, do you have any theories about why what I suggest won’t work to produce a solution to the health insurance coverage problem, and what you suggest will?
And Letsgetitdone may also not have a cure for Cancer, but that does not preclude him from advising that you stop smoking 3 packs of Dunhills a day.
This counterplan challenge thing is another ludicrous non-response from Democrat apologists.
I may not have a guaranteed workable plan to mitigate severe anthropogenic climate change, but this does not in any way inhibit or lesson my right to call your plan for giant space mirrors a colossal, unworkable, counterproductive waste of time.
How about mandatory payments direct from you to a cartel of Boeing, General Dynamics and Dyncorp to pay for their ongoing space mirror research and development, with a plan for a 13 trillion dollar deployment by 2045? What could possibly go wrong? You got a better plan, huh? huh?
You’re on a roll!
Also, I gave him a workable solution. He just didn’t want to believe it. Or, perhaps, he couldn’t say he believed it because he works for HCAN.
A good game you had here tonight!
I score it 7-2, SP over Veal Pen, who get one point for just showing up and engaging, which is indeed an improvement.
Thanks for the scoring. Engaging was good. But Jason often engages with my posts. What did he get the second point for?
er, I don’t know what the second point is for, I was feeling magnanimous after several Guinesses’.
wasn’t there a while there when you and selise would make strong points on JR’s diaries and they would just dangle, unresponded to? Maybe I caught a few of those and made it a general pattern.
and good point at #74:
its like how chess openings evolve, try this, try that, then certain moves and patterns are established that work bettor against yr opponents patterns.
they may be all iterations on the same things, but there is fuzzy logic in action, alwys improving, or at least mutating a bit.
that space mirrors thing, I’d like to develop that further.
I’ll add an echo to #119 and say, keep up the great work!
Guinesses I can really understand, spork.
You’re right about there being a period when Jason was pretty non-responsive, but I think that’s not true with me any longer, though I think he still doesn’t always directly answer selise, ’cause I think her questions are often too tough.
Good points about the chess openings and the fuzzy logic at work, and the evolving patterns. That’s exactly what is happening.
Keep working on the mirror, it’s a striking analogy and thanks, finally, for seconding Henk’s comment. It’s far too much praise for myself, or anyone else here working on this issue. But I am glad you like my work on this.
r.e. Space Mirrors, or the gentler Cancer/Smoking analogy – something to have ready when the old Counterplan Challenge comes up again, as it inevitably will.
it reminds me of what (R)’s were saying to Iraq war opponents in like 2002 and 2003 – they could be counted on to say how eeeeevil Saddam was, and then issue a counterplan challenge like “you got a better plan, hippie?”
Seriously, that sort of argument has never given me much grief. I’ve always got something I think is a better plan, and can argue for.
lol. i spent a lot of time in 2002 and 2003 organizing antiwar stuff. the thing about that time that reminds me of this past year is that getting good media coverage by the local nyt owned paper wasn’t easy. but it was easier than getting getting decent coverage of sp now by progressive blogs.
yow, really? thats a sad commentary on the message discipline in the free-wheeling political blogosphere.
the thing with SP questions being removed from all the polls deserves some study in retrospect, because it enables a lot of the 66.2% favor a ‘Public Option’ rhetoric that is so questionable.
and Lets at #128 – good for you for riposting with the better plan – but as you know online discussions are really slippery, and if I’ve got a grip on some flawed argument or advocacy I don’t like to be re-directed to my own hypothetical better plans for improved Space Mirrors or what have you.
spork, you’re definitely right.
LOL! i score that one as a touchdown. with extra points for hilarity. thanks spork.
spork, i missed this last night. what a hoot. you always arrive with a great splash into the lake. most welcome and energizing. :)
Now, now Jason, that’s really quite unfair and just more labeling. Look, I didn’t say that things need to get way worse. I just said that we ought to turn down a bad deal for progressives and keep the pressure on for our opposition to come back again with a better deal.
My view is that we’ll get that deal by next Spring some time, because our opposition (not the Republicans) really need a bill before the election. So, I expect we will be able to get a much better bill without the band-aid period and save many more lives than this very bad bill saves. I don’t think that’s “Leninist.” Why do You? To me it’s just good old-fashioned political negotiation. Your problem is that you think that everything that’s not a cave-in is “Leninist,” or “ideological,” or being “dogmatic.” To me, it’s just having a bit of a backbone, something that appears to be entirely lacking in your veal pen.
Aha! The Lenin variation on Godwin’s Law! Rarely sighted in the wild, for most who must resort to such shallow argumentation don’t even know who Lenin was.
Thanks, spork. That’s hilarious.
Let’s. Are you an attorney?
Hi GDC707, No, I’m a political scientist with a Ph.D. in the area. I studied some Constitutional Law many years ago, but that’s about as close as I’ve ever gotten to the Law.
There’s a short Bio on me here, if you’re curious. If you’re still curious there’s a long resume, a bit dated, on the web here.
So, that’s what we get after gaining super majorities in the senate and house: a bill that doesn’t appreciably worsen the status quo. Geez, you sure on’t ask for much do you?
Hi cb, Well Jason’s just being pragmatic. See this FAIR item and related links. We don’t have any liberal newspapers any more. The formerly liberal ones are now firmly ensconced as representative of the Plutocracy.
two years ago they were. it took tens of millions of dollars and a massive pr campaign by a faction of elite party insiders to change that.
regardless of how it breaks down now, progressives are still supporters of universal healthcare.
as for defeating the bill, if the bad outweighs the good then i imo we are morally required to call for it’s defeat.
Thanks selise. That’s it, in a nutshell.
maybe. But are they supporters of other supporters of universal healthcare? Clearly, not. And in unity there would be strength.
As for deceit that Henk mentioned, do you really buy the 94% coverage for all people? If that is true, why didn’t they go for 100%. Gotta kick the immigrants and women who choose abortions to the curb? And the icky homeless people. One homeless man is called the million dollar man, cuz he got picked up by cops so often and taken to the emergency room for pneumonia, he cost the government $1 million in one year. They could have set him up in a 4 star hotel for less money.
And will it be 94% coverage when the bill actually kicks in? And what will the coverage be like and what will the premiums be and what watchdogging will the government do on corporations now and then in the future, when they are so obsequious to them now?
no, i think we’re being lied to. i think that there are lots of people who pretend to care about universal healthcare but really are only involved because they are being paid to be or because they see it as a D vs R game and they are cheering out their team.
Hi selise, I went through those nyceve links you gave me. Thanks again for them. I was struck by two things 1) perhaps Eve has never given up Medicare for All as the goal of her activity, and 2) she came to the realization in the first quarter of last year that said to her that Medicare for All could not pass.
She then reacted to that realization by concluding that since Medicare for All couldn’t pass, she would not advocate for it anymore politically but would transfer her activist commitment to getting a strong public option. Last Spring I think she had in mind a Jacob Hacker type PO, which she saw as the road to Medicare for All. So, in short, she, like so many others, took Medicare for All off the table as something to push for, and she did so because she thought the impossibility of its passing was “reality.”
As it happens I don’t think that believing that Medicare for All can’t be passed is a good reason for taking it off the table. But I won’t pursue that issue here, and instead will save it for another diary.
i don’t really know, and am not even adequately informed to guess, so please treat this as wild speculation. i think that subconsciously a lot of dems, including maybe eve, are confused between their advocacy for healthcare and their advocacy for the dems.
here’s a thought experiment i like to give myself: if this policy/legislation/idea being proposed by or advocated by democrats was instead being proposed by or advocated by the republicans (especially the republicans i dislike the most), what would my reaction to the policy be? would it be even a little bit different? if the answer to that is “yes,” then i know i have a bias problem to work on.
btw, eve still, in her comments, says that single payer is the only real solution. what i’d really like to do is have a long talk with her about what kind of solution she is advocating for with the public option and does she honestly even think it will work. unlike with some people who shall remain nameless, but i’m sure you can guess, i don’t think she would bullshit me.
Yes, I think it may be true that there’s an element to continuing support of this of not wanting to create difficulties for the Party.
yes, that team cronyism can turn into personalities over principles. Scott Peck said that “a follower is never a whole person”. we can get authoritarian following anywhere, can slip into it ourselves. peer pressure.
also, one wants to be idealistic but not to turn into chronic nay-sayer, but i think it is important to recognize the tipping point where one is selling out the principle lost in the gamesmanship.
narcissism — when it becomes a group narcissism, or exceptionalism, can really travel to intense degrees of desensitization and denomization. even the violence at times after sporting events horrifies. but that same spirit can lead countries into wars. or other motives can lead countries into wars, but the leadership can get the followers in line by exploiting their sense of “team” loyalty. the jingoism stuff. the “party loyalty” stuff. the “hero worship” of a political leader.
at first the idea of Obama being a good communications eliciter seemed like a plan. his role as global community organizer, and that does seem to be a gift for him. an image strong enough to win him a peace prize. but where is his grounding? not with the rule of law apparently, since he doesn’t seem to have an urgency to turn what Bushco turned upside down right side up again, the secrecy, habaes corpus, rendition, God know’s what else re military and CIA, and the FISA stuff, and militarization of the police, etc.
As well as accountability as a major priority in terms of underegulating and monitoring our financial systems. And then there is the power of the corporatists. The sociopathic agenda for money, that is like coaxing the addict to give up the addiction. You can’t coax. And then one wonders. Obama ineffectual codependent to addiction of the corporatists. or is he one of them? Are the patriarchical power and control brokers the new fathers for him whose dreams he is now enthralled to?
It really does come down to basic “empathy”, doesn’t it, selise?
Hi, Libby
A beautiful comment. You do have a very distinct style of writing. At times, I’m just out of breath reading these words, all sparkling with energy. You are also one of the few people who actually force me to look up words in my Dictionary. I like that, as one is never too old to learn.
People may not always agree with your points of view, but they do sense your true, heartfelt commitment and (com) passion for a good cause. It really is about empathy in this world; I guess Selise agrees
henk, thanks for the feedback. it warms and also makes me smile. for years i didn’t venture my opinions too often, and now that i do i still can be naive and assume people will align with my perspective and they don’t always and maybe often. and i have my serious blind spots and stubbornness. years ago a friend told me i was an iconoclast. i had no idea what that was and when i looked it up was confused. then a palm reader told me i was a “conservative eccentric” which made me laugh. eccentric but uncomfortable being recognized as such. i think growing up female, eccentricity unlike with men is a very threatening attribute. anyway, i have read a lot of pscyhology stuff and tend to have incorporated a lot of that phraseology into my daily thinking, so i don’t always empathize with a reader as to what that means or stop to explain or use a different word. anyway, i never realized i would be using so much of the psych stuff analyzing politics, but i think them moral issues of our sadly amoral politics is calling for that. thanks for your great empathy, spirit and intelligent feedback here! libby
There’s a long tradition of psychological analysis in politics. The names Harold Lasswell, Erich Fromm, T. W. Adorno, Else Frenkel-Brunswik, and Milton Rokeach all come to mind.
thanks, lets. you have given me a new book list. Fromm is the only one I am familiar with. Very curious about the others. :)
Libby, thanks for your reaction. Stay ECCENTRIC, while embracing and enhancing the EGOCENTRIC and ECOCENTRIC dimensions of this world. We both have a masculine and feminine component to contribute to the enhancement and further development of this world. But women are far more wiser and stronger than men, so most of all we do need a stronger influence of women in this world. This comment will make my day ! ;-)
henk,
what an awesome validation and blessing for me. That is another keeper comment! :) Permission to be eccentric. And you have dazzled me with your wording. Very profound stuff. I love that expression, the egocentric and ecocentric … wait, let me quote it:
And I used to talk about a feminine paradigm shift in terms of yin and yang, but I think I was distressing the non-power and control oriented men calling it by “gender” (Miriam Woodman came up with that feminine paradigm philosophy), so now I call it a “humanist” paradigm shift to that mode of partnership and cooperation from the patriarchal power and control one.
I think sometimes a danger with women leaders is to copycat the men (Hillary went there) (and I think great part of women’s movement was also confused and went there in the 70s and minimized the power of the compassion women have and nurturing ability) to be part of the boys’ club or flex and act like them, but then a woman gives up the power of the feeling and empathy mode which we really need in this society. Though I see how women leaders get caught, having to get into that club.
My God, look at the furor over the “empathy” attribute for Judge Sotomayer. Dear God! Imagine a Supreme Court juror who tapped into his or her, especially HER, “empathy”!!! And a woman going there, well, that is just plain dangerously premenstrual or something! :)
Dorothy Dinnerstein wrote an interesting book about why women with power is very intimidating to the male world. I think it is called the Mermaid and the Minotaur. Read it so many years ago. I should track it down again.
Thanks for your patience with all this. And thanks for comment, again! libby
And don’t forget me, Henk.
Dear friend, I know you’re not seeking for compliments for what you do. And I know, I don’t have to react to your comment, as you just do the things you do, out of moral stubbornness, out of love for humans and for this nation. Your writing style is different, but you resonate the same way to people. Some may disagree with your opinions (“it’s just not pragmatic”), but people always sense if someone’s intentions are real or phony. I admire your endless efforts and the time you’ve spend for the Common Good of America, Joe. At times, I even think that this notion of ”Medicare for All” is only still alive due to your efforts, and that while this Public Option (although in name only) is now part of these bills, is only due to your efforts and those others at FDL. I know that this is too much praise, but who knows?
Dear Henk, My very good friend and ambitious co-author, Thanks for your kind words, but when I said “don’t forget me” it was in reply to your:
meaning that in addition to selise, I agree also with your view about libby’s extraordinary empathy.
About your statement:
I really think that both myself and others here at FDL have done very little thus far to keep Medicare for All alive. For myself, I’m just a blogger who’s been writing about it for four or five months. But, there are supporters of it all over the country and before the MSM took the Medicare for All choice out of their polls, earlier polls right up to the end of last year, if I recall correctly, showed that a majority of Americans favor Medicare for All over other alternatives.
Apart from what the polls have shown there are important organizations like Health Care Now, Physicians for National Health Program, the California Nurses Association that have been pushing Medicare for All for years, and individuals like Marcia Angell, David Himmelstein, Steffi Woolhandler, Margaret Flowers, Paul Hochfeld, Kevin Zeese, Bernie Sanders, John Conyers, and Dennis Kucinich, the last three in Congress, that have done far more to keep Medicare for All alive than I or anyone else here.
I know that we’ll continue to push here and to make a small contribution, but it will be a long haul, I think.
amen.
i think you are right. but some days i do better than others and always do better when i get to read something from you to ground whatever empathy i can find. many many thanks.
ah, selise. now you are being too kind. I am learning to baby-step walk the walk, much as I enjoy talking the talk. But doing all the homework, and then communicating to the non-choir whether on campus or off, that is tough for me. You have the empathy and that awesome analytical capacity to dig into the thick of an issue.
It is so great we all can support each other in our perspectives and get our energy back when frustration hits, or massive overwhelm from the scope of corruption AND obtuseness. But if I were inside the cronyism, I would probably not have such a clear view. Must remind myself.
Empathy is nurturing and then there is a time for “tough love” kind of ass-kicking empathy, too, eh? Ah, balance, as you say. :)
Thanks for that p.s. Just about to head out. Later.
Lets hosts a wonderful thread, doesn’t he?
yes. that last one is harder to do and harder to hear though.
Thanks. I try to do a good job.
I was brought up with deep respect for the US and their morality. My father was deeply hurt during WW II, and he believed that the world would become a better place after the installation of UN: no more wars! He was eternally grateful to the Americans for the invasion in Europe and raised his children in total admiration for the US; only to change his mind about the US when the War in Vietnam started.
Here I sit (after so many new wars after WWII) in his room using the Internet to follow the HCR at FDL, curious if this time around, affordable health care will be provided to all Americans by the Wizard of Change. But in essence I’m interested in the good health of All People in the world). I’m an advocate for sustainable health care (that’s my strategic goal), but right now it’s all about reforming health care finance and insurance, and next we will discuss redefining health care before coming to redesigning it into sustainable health care. I guess I will be dead by then (too bad, as I would have written some good posts on this issue). BTW, Herman Daly has some good principles for sustainability.
FDL has really educated me, these FDL people make sense, they make good points, and some are really thoughtful, providing facts and numbers. Reading these FDL diaries and comments since September this year and seeing these Bills appear, have convinced me that America actually is amoral or immoral (I will have to look up the difference in English). I simply can’t stand social exclusion, where people in society are divided in two kinds of people or citizens, or that this same split is applied in health care (there is a difference between being poor and taking part and being poor and not taking part). It still puzzles me that while the total expenditures on health care in the US (more than 14 % of its GDP) are the highest in the world, that the expenditures of US government for health care are 41 % lower than any OECD country.
In don’t remember exactly which President it was (Reagan?) who made federal policy, “the political translation of a new moral, specially designed for winners, the rich and well-doers”. This new moral had a number of basic elements: tax reductions for the wealthy, higher defense spending, banning poverty form the public conscience, reducing the government organization, a “union free strategy”, and deficit hawkism. What were the effects of this new moral? Just look at the mess we’re in; the list is endless, and it is addressed every day at FDL.
It also seems to me that most of them who are responsible of and take part in this federal policymaking show all the symptoms of antisocial personality disorder. I looked that up in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders DSM IV. According to DSM IV criteria, one can be diagnosed as a sociopath if three of seven criteria are met. Those criteria include: (1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors; (2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying or conning others for personal profit; (3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead; (4) aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated violent conflicts; (5) reckless disregard for the safety of self or others; (6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior and (7) lack of remorse, as indicated by indifference to or rationalization of harming or mistreating others.
The prevalence of this disorder seems to be very high in American politics :-). The symptoms are many; characteristics of people with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) may include (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder ):
• Persistent lying or stealing
• Superficial charm
• Apparent lack of remorse or empathy; inability to care about hurting others
• Inability to keep jobs or stay in school
• Impulsivity and/or recklessness
• Lack of realistic, long-term goals- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals
• Inability to make or keep friends, or maintain relationships such as marriage
• Poor behavioral controls — expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper
• Narcissism, elevated self-appraisal or a sense of extreme entitlement
• A persistent agitated or depressed feeling (dysphoria)
• A history of childhood conduct disorder
• Recurring difficulties with the law
• Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others
• Substance abuse
• Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
• Inability to tolerate boredom
• Disregard for the safety of self or others
• Persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social rules, obligations, and norms
• Difficulties with authority figures
So, I think you are up against some psychopaths or sociopaths, Joe. They already decided they want a bill, and a bill it will be, no matter what’s in it, no matter the morality of it, no matter what its future consequences are. Changing the behavior of people is far more difficult, than changing the actual content of a bill. I think you appeal to something (wisdom or morality) within them that just isn’t there, and as far as I know there still is no good treatment for ASPD. Those without ASPD only form a small minority in this political arena. In politics, one will have to remove them and put them in a special treatment facility and select ethical people with high moral standards instead, who will fight for the Common Good. These good people must be out there, and I trust in the basic goodness of the American people, but the political system and culture the Americans have created is really a sad thing. There are even ASPD-seniors, outranking others with ASPD.
Sorry Joe, I got carried away a bit, but a lot can change in one generation, “from a father who saw only US heroes, to his son who is now seeing sociopaths in this nation blessed by God”.
wow.. well said, henk. that comment is a keeper. sad. sociopathic, narcissistic. i don’t know if you read my lipstick on a pig diary, but I had a dream I shared in a comment that i think was inspired by health care issues. and at the end of the dream i am trying to flag cars down on a highway for help in the sleet and no one is stopping to help me, and I totally get that that is against the SOP of America, myself included, sadly. And the saturation of corruption among our politicians, who I guess have to sell out to even get to be sell outs. I do believe there are a core of moral people fighting hard for the common good and for a moral America… but the power brokers and the corporate media profoundly ignore these people. But they are figthing the good fight.
Hi, Libby
Your US highway dream actually occurred in the canals of Amsterdam, where someone fell into it, and was starting to drown. There were a lot of bystanders, but nobody helped, jumping into the water to rescue her…… they all just watched and shouted! Bless all these people who rush in, knowing that they might endanger their own health and life- to help another human being in need. I wonder what I would do whenever I find myself in such a situation, I hope I do the right thing, ……not turning my head away (?!)
I’ve read your post, although I didn’t comment. It was a good post, but it made me really sick to read all these issues you’ve researched. Nothing more to be said. But I guess we both are talking about the same new species evolving in Washington DC: pigs with ASPD, who use lipstick. Those are the worst, they really are mean! Beware.
My respects, keep up the good work. It will prevail in the end. And keep up writing Haiku’s :-) to set your soul at ease.
Be well.
Henk
Thanks, Henk. Sorry my diary bummed you out. The double standard hypocrisy of Congress’ “socialized cushy health care program” and the “let them eat cake” attitude and McCarthyism of some of those Republicans — they are covered for life on our shrinking dimes. And the Dems keeping their covert constituency, the corporations, happy.
Yes, that canal story is so sad and not surprising. Something also about group think, too, when an accident happens to someone. if it is one on one I think it is more likely someone will help. But in a group, if others are not acting responsibly, with an ability to respond, then others don’t step forward either.
Yes, been ignoring my haiku .. thanks… need to return and that settles my spirit. :) You take care!
lib, please leave the link to “lipstick on a Pig . . ” for henk.
Henk did read it, lets, but here it is cuz I am so hopping mad at Rolls Royce health care for Congress I want to keep spreading the news.
“For Citizens to Consider as Congress Puts Lipstick on the Health Care Reform Pig”
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/15316
So Repubs are just about “let them eat cake” and Dems are about “we got our cake (juicy money from lobbies) and we can eat it too” (a health care bill that gives a symbolic nod to a public option, kind of a shadow of a public option to shut up the progressives. But look at all those mandatory new purchasers of health care we criminalized if they don’t hand the money they probably won’t have over to the fat cat corporations).
And soon the $150,000 advertising committment will commence from Pharma to Obama, so we will really be sounding silly and wrong, lets, in our stance with all that slick spinning of what a historic and wonderful moment this is in health care. Don’t look away from your tv sets at the reality of people dying and going bankrupt. Trust us, your corporate tv friend.
Lib, I don’t think the TV is going to work, unless they can figure out to get them to ignore deaths, bankruptcies, and foreclosures in their families. No, I think the effects of this bill will be negative enough that Dems will pay at the polls in 2010, and then if they don’t fix it in 2012, too.
Not only will they pay, they should pay, they must pay! Conservatives will never understand such a moral stance (although God seems to be on their side). But just think about it, you have everything in place to do some good for the American people ….and you don’t. This really can’t be framed, spinned or morally justified for years to come. But then again the American people will go to the toilet, watch TV and eat popcorn. What’s on tonight? It’s about your future health…….. oh no, lets watch @#$&/> .
Henk, thanks for the passion.
Hi henk, You mean you’re apologizing to “moi” for getting “carried away”? -:)-:)-:)
But more seriously, thank you for a wonderful and heartfelt comment. In the last 20 – 30 years I think that a consensus developed among “the rational elite” in American Politics that successful change involves sharp policy analysis and very utilitarian approaches to legislation, carefully building coalitions of interest groups for getting changes introduced. The problem with this sort of technical, basically amoral approach to politics, is that while it may work during times of a fair amount ideological consensus, when change can be incremental, it doesn’t work very well when one’s system is in crisis and the ideological background of political change is also in transition.
Now we live in a time when the God of capitalism “free market ideology” is shown to be at great variance with reality and people are looking for new ways to understand their social, economic, and political worlds, and for bew initiatives consistent with these new understandings. During such a time moral perspectives are newly relevant. They are needed to guide people in introducing change that can restore a sustainable balance to society.
I think it is time, once again, to evaluate what we do in politics from the viewpoint of our moral perspectives. I know that if we do that it will need to still more conflict in American Politics, but I think we need that sort of conflict to mirror the social and economic crevices that have developed in our societal landscape over the past 35 years.
You talk about social exclusion and your opposition to it. America moves through periods of social exclusion and inclusion periodically. The periods of the Depression and the War and to some degree the 25 years after the WWII were periods when inclusion was dominant. Beginning in 1968 with Nixon’s campaign division and social exclusion were sown into the fabric of American society. Reagan accelerated it, but so did the Democrats with their heavy emphasis on interest group rather than class-based politics. the strange thing about this is that class-based politics is considered divisive here. But it is actually much more inclusive than the divide and conquer interest group politics that replaced it in the 1970s.
With the return of acute economic problems we may see a resurgence of class-based politics now. And if we do, that will be good for America and for social inclusion, because class-based economic interests can transcend ethnic, racial, gender-based, sexual orientation-based, and culturally-based value cleavages, and bring most of us together for awhile.
Hi, Joe
Thanks for your reaction, and I’m glad you had some fun with my comment. I agree with your brushstrokes, painting the broad landscape of “modern times”.
Be well,
Henk
good morning all thanks for the post, lets.
i’m personally having a little bit of trouble dealing with the “(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying or conning others for personal profit” HealthSustainomics discusses above. so i’m going to take a bit of a break to work on my empathy (which i feel is lacking at the moment).
It does get overwhelming at times.
Hi, Selise
I do remember your good wishes, at the time I’ve had it with all this deceitfulness. I can recommend going to the sea, or else go to a lake. There are more things in life than health economics. Just experience health sustainomics, and let nature refresh and revitalize your soul ! Feel the total silence and darkness ! You don’t have to hug trees for me . But I hope to read your next comments soon, as you are one of those FDL people I meant , who are really thoughtful, providing facts and numbers in this health insurance debate.
Be well,
Henk
thank you henk.
p.s. tree hugging is good. i need more of it :)
Thanks to all for this post and the comments and debate. I remain so totally sickened by it all/ Itotally lack the intellectual clarity to think it all through, but know very clearly that what is just plain sucks. My ultimate conflict internally remains that I don’t want to give the repubs et al a win with a total defeat, but I want to stop and start again. I marvel at the sustainability of those of you who have become my heroes in the midst of the infinite insanities of the process I’ve followed on these pages for so many months now, especially when we’re dealing with the sickos as described by Henk. But thank God there is Lets, Libby, Selise, Scarecrow…..
I usually sign off with Blessings to all, today I want to say Grace and Peace, with the hope there can be some, no, a lot of both for us all who are active or passive in the midst of this ongoing insanity.
marchan, thanks for the morale-building affirmation! :)
Thank you marchan. I’ve missed seeing you in these parts lately. Hope you’ll continue to come back.
marchan, always good to see you. grace, peace and blessings to you.
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/november/healthcare-now-statement-on-hr-3962
But, but, but . . . Jason, says that this bill doesn’t make things worse.
Yep. That’s what I mean when I say that the Demo party has “raised the gun to its temple.” This bill is political suicide. Not only will it not work but it does so many damned irritating things that will enable the Repubs to slaughter it as it goes into affect as well as slaughter it BEFORE it goes into affect,-the time Let’s calls the Band-aid period. Slaughter!
I can’t understand why the Dems don’t see this. Have they just gotten to the point where they think that campaign money will persuade people that they really aren’t being forced to buy crappy insurance at too high a price and that their day-to-day economic situation isn’t tighter than it was before the mandates?
GDC — From my last diary on the eleventh hour considerations, here are 2 mashed together listings of what is not so hot about this bill:
http://datelineojorojo.blogspot.com/2009/11/we-need-health-care-not-health.html
From Carol Miller (We Need Health Care, Not Health Insurance – Albuquerque Journal North)
http://counterpunch.org/demoro11102009.html
From Rose Ann DeMoro (Another Big Bail Out — The Truth About the House Health Care Bill)
i think so too. and i very much hope to be wrong.
Great statement Lgid. I would hope that Jane will soon come to the light and realize they are bait-and-switching us on a PO and that if we raise a loud sqwall and throw some wrenches in the Democratic march over the cliff, maybe we can still get something a little better than Jason’s axiom: If it doesn’t rock the status quo, let it live. I noticed that Nelson had the anti-trust exemption clause stripped from the Senate Bill. If progressives in congress would wise up and look into what can be done on price controls in situations of anti-trust protection, it is possible a hammer could come down on the insurers. But, we would need a totally reconfigured congress to even hope for such an outcome
cb, Thanks.
I don’t think Jane’s overall perspectives are very different about the current situation, she’s just very persuaded by her own previous experience that she can predict the reactions of Congress to situations, and in this situation she believes that killing this bill is impossible. So she reasons further that our choices are to work as hard as we can to get a PO, because a bill without any PO would be worse than one with a PO. I just don’t agree that killing the bill is impossible, but I also think that progressives had better be free of blame for either alternative if we plan to come back next year and try to fix things.
On price controls, maybe we do have to change the whole Congress, but I suspect that as the years go by, and given the stupidity of the industry and its sense of entitlement, there may be enough outrage over premium increases that Congress will have to legislate price controls on them, or face certain defeat at the polls.
but I also think that progressives had better be free of blame for either alternative if we plan to come back next year and try to fix things.
yep, this is important. and not just free of blame for the present course if it works out badly, but we have to have been working for a better course all along and will have to be seen as having done that going forward. single payer advocates who have refused to go along with or have abandoned the hcan path are going to be demonized for not having supported the one and only cause that was ‘politically feasible’.
I’m sure we will be demonized, and that the way politics works nowadays, there’s a good chance that when the reform goes sour, they still won’t turn to single-payer, but will call in the same “experts” who botched things this time around.
y’know what they say about the messenger.
yep. popular breed, those messengers! :)
Little Dennis was the man, But the people dismissed Him.
All of it proves the American people in both parties are poor judges of character in what’s offered as candidates and who they choose to support and vote for.
It’s absolutely true. Dennis is short, isn’t very good-looking, wears very plain suits, and talks more earnestly and makes more specific moral judgments than other candidates. He also doesn’t give us a lot of optimistic pap, and has press coverage that doesn’t take him seriously as a presidential candidates. But, of all the people in Congress, I think Dennis is most often there for people.
We always dismiss the little guys like Dennis, and many are there when You need them.
When I was a teenager I was with a good sized gang and got in brawl with a bunch of older guys that far out numbered us. It was like the bar fight in the movies. While I and several others were handling three and four at a time killer cleaned up the crowd. Killer was four foot three, and looked like a little pip squeek, but he must have laid out about fifteen guys by himself. I had known Him for years and never thought He had it in Him. He was so fast one could hardly see but a blur.
Since then I always have had a soft spot for the little guy’s, and never underestimated them.
Since I’m shorter than the American average, I’ve never dismissed little guys. But also, I remember people like Harry Truman and Paul Wellstone very well. Dennis reminds me most of Harry.
iremember54, i lived in cleveland when kucinich was mayor. he stood tall then and faced down the banksters. would that we had more politicians who could or would do that.
Why does anyone keep arguing with Jason over this issue?
He’s a healthcare journalist who made the claim that the similar size of the VA to that of the purported House public option suggests that perhaps the public option will see the kinds of efficiencies that the VA does. In so far as I can tell, he wasn’t making a really bad and really obscure inside joke.
Even after his advocacy for broadly interpreting non-representative data, that has no information on coverage demographics, is inferred from a non-congruent system, and saves the government only $2.5 Billion per year with the most generous reading of the data (and contains nothing about the larger impact to % of GDP on overall medical expenditure) as a necessary fundamental pillar of healthcare reform; I just assumed he’d lost all ability to understand the magnitudes in Dollars we’re dealing with surrounding this problem, and the subsequent anchor it puts on our economic competitiveness in the global market, and the extreme downward pressure it will continue to have on wages across the board.
The VA comment clinched it; there’s absolutely nothing credible about what he says regarding the debate on healthcare. His position and advocacy for the public option as we see it today is tantamount to the people who claim that tort reform, or interstate policies, are the key ingredient missing to get everything functioning properly.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. The VA? Seriously, the VA? It’s such a completely absurd and ridiculous comparison, that I can only assume it’s being made in bad faith, because his high-aptitude for writing tells me he’s not mentally-handicapped.
Hi Nathan, We all have our frames to bear. In Jason’s case he works for an organization that reinforces his frame all day and gives him talking points, so it’s hard for him to escape that frame. We argue with him because that’s our role here. None of us expects to persuade the other after all this time. Yet new arguments appear. We put things better or worse; we learn something we hadn’t known before. We improve our writing. We laugh a little when spork tells a joke.
he’s not a journalist, trudy lieberman is a journalist. it’s worse, he’s a paid propagandist for hcan. if you don’t know the story behind hcan and their dishonest shilling for the dem party elite against the progressive grass roots, keep your eyes peeled. more to come.
Will you do a diary on this?
i don’t know. maybe. haven’t written a diary here for a long time. but info is coming out already. it doesn’t depend on me. see, for example, comments by mmogu77 especially in this thread:
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/11991
the more i dig, the more my outrage grows.
You should write more diaries, selise. You have a strong clear voice, you care deeply about the issues, and you aren’t afraid of facts.
Caps are not required ;)
((((selise))))
i’m honored. and you and lets are very kind (i even used to use caps — but only in a diary *g*). but i am currently a little conflicted…
yep, jason’s a journalist [or more accurately, for hcan he's a pr person] not an analyst, which is fine, no reason for him to be anything other than that, but that does leave his readers with the task of pointing out howlers like his va comparison.
Do you people really belive anything a politican tells you? You can’t be that stupid. They lie to use because they can. All we can do is hope we vote for the people who will fuck us the least, and maye even let us keep a little of “our” hard earned money-take someone elses. We lose either way.
My strategy for healthcare is to hedge. I filed papers to begin the process of attempting to emigrate to Vancouver B.C. earlier this week.
wow, Nathan. an idea that drifts through my mind every now and then but not that proactive on it, just a fantasy that arises amidst my anger.
good luck with such a consideration.
I think there’s no question that it’s a better place to raise a family and build a life right now. I’m beyond that point and my children and Grandchildren are close by, so I think the time has passed me by for Canada. I think if I had seen the long-term future in 1975, I probably would have gone there then. I just didn’t think the rightists thrust here would be so powerful. Sometimes I reflect in amazement on what’s happened to the political landscape and the associated economic effects.
lets, the Canada thing is more of an angry thought than a realistic one for me, too. though when the credits ran after Moore’s SICKO movie, there was a website address for something called “hook-a-canuck” which made me laugh. I remember thinking a lot over the past few years of the book Fahrenheit 451 and why the book people ended up separating from those lost to the controlling system. The older I get the more I see that fiction writers like Heller and Bradbury and Vonnegut and Arthur Miller, et al., weren’t being as hyperbolic about things as I thought. I used to think, what an imagination to make human beings that extremely evil. Whoa. They can easily become that extremely evil. Scott Peck says in his book People of the Lie that evil is laziness to the nth degree. I guess that is what narcissism is about. Pathological narcissism is not having any moral energy for empathy. Or sadly capacity for some. amazing, too, how those types can intimidate others and enthrall them to let go of their tie to empathy, too. too lazy maybe to confront that evil in the psychopathic.
I missed that web site in Sicko. I used to read a lot of science fiction, but since writing so much, I find there’s not much time for SF. When I was younger, and I’d read novels dealt with politics as part of the SF, I was always skeptical about the projections of corrupt plutocracy that writers were assuming for the American political system. But now, I think we’re there. Nathan’s statement @105 really resonates with me as our present reality.
One of the reasons I’m so livid at Obama is that he may have been our last chance to help us take it back. By refusing to dismantle the unconstitutional instruments of the State Bush put in place, Obama is threatening all our futures.
lets, only have a sec right now but love these exchanges always on your threads with some great commenters. I so relate.
when Bush stole the election the second time, i was so heartsick. had that same feeling of a lost opportunity to begin to turn the ship of state around. and these ships don’t make hair pin turns, but at least we would have the satisfaction of going slowly but surely in a moral direction. when kerry lost i felt “funereal” is the only word for it.
that is why when obama rallied so much hope and energy and then the FISA whammy, the Goldman cronyism, etc., etc. it feels like such a kick in the teeth to the spirit once again. and getting out the horrifying Bush, Cheney, Rove, et al. and assuming the good guys would be in the majority. I think Nader was more right than I gave him credit for about the corruption of both parties. It is truly tragic. And tragic, too, that the citizenry, though angry and frustrated and terrified, is not really getting what is happening. And many trusting Obama will still do the right thing. Heck, even I have that flame of hope.
But another pscyhology quotation from Peck again, “mental health is dedication to reality at all costs.” the reality is not pretty for sure.
Now that’s my big problem with the PO folks right now. They accuse everyone else of being impractical and unrealistic, while at the same time being completely incapable of recognizing the spiral of reflexive compromise in which they enmeshed the health care reform legislative process, while watering down the PO to a farcical state. They can’t understand that they made a dreadful error in trying to get a PO by pushing that PO as an ideal. They seem incapable, one and all, of seeing the reality they have created over the past 11 or so months, and taking responsibility for it.
Did you get my reference to Bridge on River Kwai? Alec Guinness and the bridge which was a brilliant idea, and helped the morale of the pow troops and was a genius job, but then it was to be used by the enemy and had to be blown up… and he had trouble recognizing that. But he did eventually. Was it William Holden who had to shock him into recognition. Been a long time.
Yes, I think it was Holden, and thanks I did get the reference
or even explaining or being willing to consider they may be wrong. i’m wrong all the time, it would be nuts not to take that possibility into account and try to find a way to mitigate possible errors. that is one of the reasons i get so frustrated by the exclusion of single payer grass roots activists. i mean, how hard would it be to acknowledge they exist, to occasionally cover them in the news? i know it’s harder, but i also think there is a real responsibility to acknowledge the left critique and provide a real response.
i don’t get it. and i don’t get the anger (just had a really depressing exchange with paul rosenberg, who has been for years one of my favorite bloggers. got accused of “profound bad faith morally.”)
profound bad faith morally? you?! and paul rosenberg said that?!!
that’s bad. he was the last sane lefty over there.
it was a general statement, perhaps i was wrong to think it was directed at me (generally, but not personally). but i don’t think so. here’s the thread if you want to check out my comments and links (to previous comments — it’s been an off and on conversation with paul since june:
http://www.openleft.com/diary/16087/finding-the-keys
i really like paul and his writing, which is probably why i’m so upset now. tomorrow i’ll be able to think more clearly (i hope!).
if i were a more cynical person i’d say that the message has gone out to all the big progressive blogs: time to get those pesky single payer advocates to stfu. jane, jason, and now paul have all begun to sound like clones of each other and the viciousness of their pushback comments when they do deign to talk back to single payer advocates is increasing.
paul has always been my favorite blogger there, and one of my favorites in the progressive blogosphere as a whole, but while i’ll continue to read and enjoy his writing, i’ve now added him to my list progressives who can’t be trusted as allies.
Jason, doesn’t seem vicious to me. We give as good as we get with him, and really can’t complain. I haven’t been watching Paul, so I can’t say. As for Jane, I think she tends to be ad hominem too, but in the few exchanges I’ve had with her I’ve found that sometimes she will explain things, while on other occasions, I’ll offer a lengthy comment that she doesn’t reply to.
i thought about using ferocity or intensity or something else a little less loaded than viciousness, but what paul wrote [that selise refers to] is far enough out of character from his usual style [at least recently] that it’s a truly jarring note.
you and i are not especially thin-skinned and so from our point of view, they’re none of them up to the level of ‘vicious’ yet. but the escalation is there, and even if it doesn’t succeed in silencing some of us hardheads, it will most certainly make a lot of other people stop and think twice about speaking up favor of single payer, or killing the bill, or even holding out for no more watering down.
hipparachia, I agree. I think we have a big job ahead of us because I think we have to create a general realization among progressives that explicit support of the PO including incrementalist tactics designed to increase its strength, were and still are a fundamental error. Tactics aimed at explicit pushing the PO are working against both SP and a real PO. We have to stop implementing these tactics right now, and shift to others based on advocacy of Medicare for All.
What I am most afraid of now is the inability of the PO advocates to recognize their failure, take responsibility for it and shift to SP advocacy, both for the sake of SP and the PO itself. What I see instead is people making longer-term plans to advocate for the PO that go way beyond the current legislative process. That would be a tragedy because it would magnify this disaster many-fold and extend its effects far in the future. We can’t have that. And rather than soft-pedal our differences, or unify around the PO at this point, we need to go at Paul Rosenberg and other PO advocated, whether or not they agree with us that the ultimate goal is SP, and get them to see the flaw and the ruinous effects of their PO advocacy tactics, and finally get them to unify with us around an effective Medicare for All strategy, that at a minimum, will get us a Jacob Hacker-type PO in the very short run.
so well said. see my comment to selise above.
Thanks.
do you think that is the intent? or is it is something else?
Have you another possibility?
a psychologist friend of mine tells me that humans are notoriously bad at guessing other people’s motives and intentions, and in fact, i don’t really know what the actual effect is or is going to be. mostly, i just noticed what appears to be an escalation in both the amount and unfriendliness of the pushback against single payer advocates.
I think the unfriendliness is a function of the fact that the PO people are losing, and they’d rather be nasty to us than to other members of the veal pen or to the architects of their defeat, Barack Obama, Rahm Emanuel, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid.
Yep. Plus, they’re access bloggers. Their business models depend on their reputation for being effective.
Good definition.
selise, I didn’t think it was directed at you, but more generally. However, I also thought that Paul’s framing was dangerous for progressives. What he seemed to be saying is that we need to organize the progressive movement so that everyone will get behind a monolithic position on legislation. This is not good, because it seems to leave out of account fundamental critiques of the monolithic position. Tomorrow I’m going to post a diary called “What Might Have Been”. It’s a critique of the progressive decision to take SP off the table and go with the PO.
If Paul happens to see it, I don’t think he’ll be happy with it, because it makes the case that progressives who want single-payer, but made the judgment that it wasn’t possible to get it this year, and then determined that they would lobby and pressure for the PO only, made a fundamental and costly error by assuming that the impossibility of getting SP, implied that we should be trying to push the PO. I argue instead that actually the judgment about the impossibility of getting SP this year doesn’t justify changing the strategy of directly pursuing SP, and that pursuit ogf SP was still the right thing to do on all grounds including the practical.
my bottom line is that the judgment about the impossibility of getting single payer this year doesn’t justify marginalizing, excluding and mocking those people who think regardless of what is politically possible this year, the best thing they can do for the long run is to continue to make the case and try to build a movement for universal healthcare via single payer.
……
for paul and others to insist that those of us who disagree with their decision to exclude sp, sp advocates and policy critiques if they come from sp advocates (specially when 2 years ago the only progressive volunteer grass roots universal healthcare activists were single payer advocates ) must only be permitted to raise questions politely and then must be satisfied with no response (lest we be accused of “profound bad faith morally”), is imo so at odds with everything else i’ve ever read from paul and i thought progressives stood for, i’m just left speechless.
selise, so the public option progressives feel veal penned by Obamacare. And we as SPs are veal penned by the po progressives.
Why doesn’t victimization expand empathy, not make it contract and behave similiarly to the victimizer, catalyzing one group to be unable to relate their own treatment to what they are doing to their brothers and sisters fighting for justice?
The po progressives were marginalized and betrayed by supposed progressives in Congress. As they marginalize and betray with their contempt and lack of support us sps.
I think the marginalizing occurs because leaders of the progressive organizations don’t want other progressives self-organizing. It’s a threat to their own organizations over time. Rather than accepting the threat, as the price of real Democracy and real progressivism, they want to practice a bit of Democratic Centralism.
For someone left speechless, I think you’re responding very well indeed. My new post going directly at all sorts of people including Paul by implication is up.
thank you very much. i’ve just glanced at your new post, please forgive me for not reading it carefully yet (will do so when i can, probably later today or tonight). but just wanted to mention that i think you may have the dates a bit off. the decisions by progressive bloggers to go with hcan weren’t taken in 2009 – they were taken in 2008 before the nov elections. see for example this thread (if you note the date and read my comments, you may begin to understand why i’m feeling a bit worn down by now).
also, i now speculate (based on a helpful comments from mmogu77 in this thread) that the pitch may have been made by dem party insiders to progressive bloggers around the time of the march 2008 TBA conference. see for example here, here and here.
anyway, thought i should make this comment here and move to your new thread after i’ve read it.
Thanks selise, you may want to post it at the new thread too, so people can see the correction, which I welcome, there.
Yes. I know what you mean. There’s so much tendency in this space to respond to people with ad hominems and labeling, rather than with explanation and critical reason, that it really interferes with the collective process of inquiry.
Yes, lets. Who saw this oncoming train coming. Since Reagan the Right has stopped being the silent majority and been the bullying minority still declaring they are the “majority”. I think Reagan as beloved actor, his brand, just seduced everyone and he got puppeteered by the Right and self-aggrandizing neocons and his own conservatism and over-simplistic, gated community take. He was divorced, and yet he was the poster boy for traditional family values. His firing of the traffic controllers was stunning. But he had that father of the country thing, going, that confidence.
What will be the deciding factor in whether or not you go? BTW, do you know a book by Dan Zuberi called Differences That Matter: Social Policy and the Working Poor in the United States and Canada? It’s a nice piece of sociology.
On deciding to go; at this point it’s already only contingent on whether or not Canada will allow it. It’s only a short flight between B.C. and where my family mostly resides (Portland, OR). It’d be no different than when I was living in Spokane, WA for 9 years.
I’ve begun to feel a kind of intense shame over being an American. A sort of deep cultural identity crisis. The short of it is that I don’t want to live in a warrior-state, that has exactly zero capacity for solutions-based policy, where the government is completely unaccountable for criminality, imprisons people without charge or trial, actively works against the general welfare, protects the oligarchs, grants essentially unfettered personhood to institutions which have a fiduciary responsibility to be sociopathic, etc.
Watching healthcare reform fail spectacularly twice in my short lifetime (I’ll be 30 next month), and the reality that there are clearly entirely too many people with organizational influence to kowtow to perceived friendly authority and savvy (HCAN, etc.), finally pushed me over the edge.
It’s about to get a lot more expensive to be an American, and a lot more expensive to be a small business owner. Currently I’m both, and I can’t afford to establish a life in a place where every single institution is actively working against my success. I’ve been able to do it so far, but I finally asked myself; why? Why put up with this?
Being an American is like being in an abusive relationship. Grow a pair, gather your things, and get out.
At least it makes sense to me.
Hi, Nathan
Impressive personal statement. Best wishes and good luck!
Thanks Nathan for this statement. I often feel this way too.
Joe,
Selise really produced a cliffhanger. It has all the suspense of the film “High Noon”; it’s still quite in town, before the showdown or shootout begins. I have my eyes wide open on this Saturday afternoon for quite some time.
In order for me to follow this issue, Joe please enlighten me, about “Who is Jason Rosenbaum?” It’s a question about facts. How many Jason Rosenbaum’s are there or is it always the same person? I see a Jason who comments to posts. I see a Jason who writes diaries, in which he says at the end that he is proud to be working for Health Care for America Now. I noticed a Jason Rosenbaum who is working as the Head of “The Seminal” Department of FDL. And I also seem to remember there is a Jason (Rosenbaum?) who performs tasks as a moderator at the FDL Seminal. If all this is the same one person, there seems to be rather a conflict of interest here, unless HCAN is a subsidiary of FDL. But even then, it remains rather funny that one writes posts and comments on the one hand, and one moderates the diaries and comments of others on the other hand, or removing certain elements in it. I’m looking at a picture of Jason right now, taken in front of The White House in spring, seems a nice guy to me.
Thanks in advance
Henk, There’s only one Jason, and in spite of the ‘conflicts of interest” you’ve pointed to he seems very fair in moderating posts and doesn’t interfere in civil critical discussion. He’s been moderating all of our discussions on The Seminal since I’ve been posting here. When Jason began to blog here, I think Jane Hamsher established a section of FDL for him to run, and he brought over The Seminal name himself.
there used to be a community diary called oxdown. it was given to jason to run (at least i think that is what happened) and the name was changed, but i don’t think jason is a moderator (might be wrong about that too). as for the rest, you are much more generous than i am.
Yes, I remember The Seminal did replace Oxdown.
A commoner, asking for a look behind the curtain?
Hi, fairleft
The knowledge of a commoner starts with asking questions. We all know that behind most curtains, there are corpses hidden.
Especially in the “murder by spreadsheet” business.
It’s Health “Curtain” Reform
In this world of fast changing diaries, poll positions and the number of comments, I think everybody will be gone now, off to a new diary. So I will post this comment to myself, before this discussion is finally closed. All this can’t be true; there are so many conflicting interests here, which makes this rather a farce. It simply is impossible to know, who the real Jason Rosenbaum is, once he shows up. But nobody in the US seems to bother, so why should I; I will rest my case.
Perhaps from now on we should refer to Jason as “he of the multiple identities,” and never forget to ask: “Who is Jason Rosenbaum?” -:)-:)-:)-:)-:)
LOL. thanks for the laugh. i think it will take my leave on that upbeat note. later friends.
I really thought nobody was still here. I look that up in DSM IV, seems to me a disorder hard to life with : )
LOL!!!
Thanks Joe, for clearing that up. It’s also good to hear that all these different roles are transparent, well understood and fairly executed in such a complex situation.