Many progressives, even though they’ve been working for a PO-based health care reform bill, have 1) never given up Medicare for All as the goal of their activity, and 2) decided, in the first quarter of 2009, that Medicare for All could not pass the new Congress. They then reacted to their realization by concluding that since Medicare for All couldn’t pass, they would not advocate for it anymore politically, but would transfer their activist commitment to getting a strong public option. Last Spring, they had in mind a Jacob Hacker-type PO, which they saw as the road to Medicare for All. So, in short, they took Medicare for All off the table as something to push for, and they did so because they thought the impossibility of its passing was "reality."
In my other life, in the field of Knowledge Management, I sometimes work on the idea of reflexivity, a favorite notion of George Soros’s, and also on complex systems, a field having to do with the rise, maintenance, and fall of various types of systems, including human organizations of various kinds. Both of these notions are closely related to the idea that to some degree at least we make our own realities, or, as some in systems theory put it, we constantly "bring forth our world."
One of the things we mean by this, is that, to some degree, and especially in social contexts, we and others help to make our own reality. Social reality is not given to us, so much as we contribute to making it ourselves. In turn, this means that our futures are not pre-determined for us, and that, in particular, there is no pre-set future social reality, but rather there is only the reality that we, in concert with our fellow humans, make.
Now, getting back to the thinking pattern of a lot of progressives in the Winter and Spring quarters of 2009, we can see that they decided that a social reality in which Medicare for All was feasible by the Summer or Fall of 2009 would never occur, and as a result of that prediction, they decided not to advocate for it anymore in this round of reform, but to advocate, in just as determined a way, for Public Option-based legislation, because they thought that it was the best that progressives could possibly hope for in the short run, and, many of them, thought, it might lead to single-payer over 5 – 10 years anyway. They set about creating, in other words, a social reality of reform with a robust PO.
They may well have been right about their prediction of the fate of Medicare for All, but I think they made a mistake when they concluded, further, that just because Medicare for All was unlikely to happen in the short run, they ought to give up pushing for it, and instead concentrate their political activity on pushing for a “robust” PO. I think this because, in deciding to take Medicare for All off the table, and working for a PO instead, they have brought forth a world in which the robust PO that was their pre-compromise position proved hard to communicate, became the left wing of the political spectrum of recognized possibilities, and the focus of attacks from the insurance industry, and so gave way in the legislative/lobbying process to what is likely to be at best a reform with a very, very weak PO, or even a “trigger,” that they must really bite their tongues to continue to support.
By committing to tactics of explicit advocacy of a robust PO, aimed at bringing about legislation, they set themselves on a path where the judgment that they needed as robust a PO as possible, always implied continued explicit advocacy of a robust PO at every stage of the legislative/lobbying process, regardless of the degree of defeat suffered at the preceding stage. When the most liberal House and Senate committees came out with disappointing bills that were quite far from the original idea of a robust PO, and had a completely unacceptable band-aid period, during which the majority of the deaths, bankruptcies, and foreclosures due to lack of health insurance would continue, they believed that they had to react with support of the best of those bills, because they offered the best available PO on the continuum of robustness. When the committees merged their bills, and even though the result fell far short of their original pre-compromise, there was nothing to do, they thought, but support and redouble efforts to prevent further erosion in the PO.
When similar things happened in the Senate, progressives had similar reactions when it came to lobbying activity. In each case where there was disappointment, the progressives revised downward their notions of what was possible, and prepared to bring forth a world with a weaker PO-based reform. Each time they did that, they took action that was part of a more global process that led to an even weaker PO. This process is a classic example of reflexivity: one’s judgment of what is possible leads to one’s choice of action, which impacts a later judgment of what’s possible, which impacts one’s choice of a similar action as before, and so one goes round and round in a deflationary cycle that ends with action defending a PO-based reform that is only a shadow of what one started out to support.
But, going back to the first step, why did progressives conclude that since Medicare wasn’t possible in the short-run, but the public option was, that, in this round of reform, at least, they ought to advocate for the PO explicitly and directly, and push as hard as they can to get as robust a PO as possible? This certainly seems like the commonsensical, and straightforwardly rational thing to do, but it clearly wasn’t, because it drew them into a reflexive downward spiral of decreasing PO robustness within every stage of the legislative process, until now they are facing a PO predicted to enroll only 3 million people, or perhaps even “triggers,” which won’t be operative until 2014, which may allow state opt-outs before the exchange and the PO are operative, and which may even contain the Stupak anti-choice language.
What progressives could have and should have done instead, regardless of what they believed about the ultimate feasibility of getting it passed, was to have taken the seemingly completely irrational course of refusing to take Medicare for All off the table, mobilized the 87 co-sponsors of HR 676, and insisted that they would defeat any reform bill that wasn’t HR 676. Had all progressive movement groups held to that position, and all progressive legislators too, and loudly announced that they would oppose, and vote against, all committee bills that weren’t HR 676, and loudly announced, as well, that Nancy Pelosi’s synthesis bill had better be HR 676 if she wanted their votes. they would have brought forth a completely different world, an entirely different reality this Fall.
Imagine if, at the first stage of this process, the progressives had not agreed to take HR 676 off the table in the House and S 703 in the Senate. The first thing that would have happened is that the MSM and cable news would have talked about Obama’s rebellious Party ideologues who were contradicting all the tenets of pragmatism, who were allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good, who were insisting on single-payer, and who were refusing to accept his leadership and undermining his newly-elected authority. Since this opposition in the ranks would have been big news back in January and February, the progressives would have gotten interviews. Single-payer, enhanced Medicare for All, would have been presented to the broader public back then. It, and not the PO, would have been touted as one of the main reform policy positions, even while it was also characterized as the ideologue position. The support for Medicare for All in Congress, however, whether ideological or not, would have connected to a popular movement for Medicare for All, very early on, and enabled that movement. To avoid a fight with the progressives and lots of press articles about how ineffective he was being as a leader, President Obama might have concluded that the best way to go was to feed this popular movement, to find its leaders, to get them into the White House, and to help them to mobilize the public in favor of Medicare for All.
Why would he do that? Because every good politician knows that when the crowd starts to move, you need to get out in front of it, if you expect to have any control over it at all. The crowd needs to trust you as one of its leaders. And after all, any health care reform bill is a great victory for his Administration, even if it destroys the insurance companies as a viable political force that can’t provide campaign contributions either to Democrats or anyone else.
The insurance companies would have fired on Medicare for All very early, of course, and the pharmaceutical industry too. Both would have attacked it as “socialized medicine.” But everyone knows about Medicare because their grandparents and parents have it, and 86% of them like it. People know that it’s not socialized medicine; but only Government-funded insurance. It can be easily communicated to them that if Medicare for All is enacted, they won’t lose their providers, but only their insurance companies, which a heavy majority of them hate and mistrust anyway.
What about the polls? Well once the MSM had made the very early progressive insistence on Medicare for All, a popular narrative, they would have included Medicare for All in their polling. In fact, there’s a good chance that their framing would have suppressed polling of the PO entirely, because the progressives would not have had it on the table, as something they were pushing. Even if that had not happened however, both Medicare for All and a “Medicare-like PO” would most probably have polled 75% together, with Medicare for All itself at around 55-60%. That support probably would have been maintained throughout the Summer, because the tea bag movement would have had a lot more difficult time tagging Medicare with “death panels” and “Government takeover of medical care,” than they had doing that with PO-based bills that no one understood.
What about the blue dog and ConservaDem opposition in the House? With 55-60% supporting Medicare for All and 15-20% supporting the PO, the blue dogs and ConservDems would have had a hard time, proposing anything in opposition to Medicare for All, other than a Jacob Hacker-type PO. How many votes would they have had. Well, that would have depended on the President.
If early progressive stubbornness and the appearance of a popular movement had persuaded him to be friendly to Medicare for All, and get out in front of the movement, then the whole group of Congresspeople who routinely support a president of their own Party would have come over to Medicare for All. Adding that group to the 87 progressive co-sponsors of HR 676, one would probably have been looking at 200 votes in the House. Not enough to pass Medicare for All, but getting close.
In a situation like this, and assuming the same “no” behavior we see now from the Republicans, the result, with some leadership and heavy presidential pressure, would be that either Medicare for All would have passed the House in a close vote, or a compromise with the blue dogs on a strong Hacker-type PO would have emerged behind closed doors as a compromise. In this scenario progressives would have had to compromise only once, at the end of the process, and there would have been no need to sell the PO idea to the public, except as the best alternative possible to Medicare for All itself.
What if the President wouldn’t back Medicare for All, but maintained neutrality from the House proceedings, while saying, in typical Obama fashion, that, in principle, he agreed with it, but . . . . That would still leave the Presidential Party in the House as the arbiter between the blue dogs and the more numerous co-sponsors of HR 676. If the partisans of HR 676 stood very firm, the most likely outcome would again be a very strong PO, much superior to what we have now.
How about the Senate? Well to reasonably project what might have happened there, I think we first have to forget about the political landscape we see now, because an alternative landscape in which the House progressives insisted on HR 676 until the very end of the process, would have been very different from what we see today. One difference would have been that progressives in the Senate would have seen many representatives in the House standing up for Medicare for All, and also an external movement, good polling for Medicare for All, and much better press coverage for it than we see now. Cable news commentators like Chris Mathews, Ed Schultz, Keith, Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, and Dylan Ratigan would be covering it far more than they are now, as would various commentators on CNN, and Fox, though in a much less complimentary way.Finally, netroots commentary would have been much more frequent and much more complimentary than it has been.
If the President aligned with the House progressives and the movement, then Senate progressives, and presidential followers in the Senate would have been much emboldened to follow the House progressives, and most probably more than 40 Senators would have fallen in line in back of Medicare for All; not enough to pass the bill, even through reconciliation, or through using the nuclear option. Nevertheless, those votes would have been enough to guarantee a much better compromise bill emerging from Senate negotiations, especially if Harry Reid made it clear that health care reform would not be subject to the regular order in the Senate, and that extraordinary measures would be used to pass a reform bill. With only 10 Senators, none of whom were the most extreme blue dogs and Conservadems left to bring over, I think the likelihood would have been very good, if the progressives held very firm, that a compromise on a Jacob Hacker-type PO would have been negotiated in the Senate too, and one without a band-aid period before implementation.
What if Obama stayed above the fray, beyond endorsing Medicare for All in principle, to accommodate the movement? In that case, there would still be roughly 20 votes for Medicare for All. With the House progressives standing firm for HR 676, and a Medicare for All movement ongoing, these Senators would have done the same, and no health care reform bill could pass without accommodating them. On the other hand, their hand would be weaker than in the first scenario, because the Senators who primarily support the President, would be less supportive, more neutral to Medicare for All, and more interested brokering a compromise deal with the remaining Senators needed to get to 50 votes so that reconciliation, or the nuclear option, could be used to pass a health care reform bill.
Nevertheless, stubbornness, on the part of Medicare for All supporters would still have worked to get other Democrats to move toward at least a strong PO-based bill, without a band-aid period, because the alternative is no bill at all, and blue dogs and the White House cannot abide that. The result would have been a much stronger PO-based bill coming out of the Senate. With a Jacob Hacker-type PO bill coming out of the House and a weaker, but still very strong PO, coming out of the Senate, the Conference Committee would have produced a bill very close to Jacob Hacker’s original design. That’s still not Medicare for All, and progressives whose goal is such legislation would still have had work to do in the future. But the result would have been far better than we are looking at now; both for those who prefer Medicare for All, and for those relatively few who prefer the PO in principle.
Finally, why have I constructed this narrative of what might have been, if only the progressives had concluded that the likely eventual defeat of Medicare for All, did not entail that they should stop advocating for it, and pressure only for a public option based reform?
First, because I wanted to make it clear that whether or not Medicare for All is possible to pass in a given legislative session, doesn’t determine whether we ought to do all we can to advocate for it or seek it. What does determine that, or at least should, is an accurate assessment of what the consequences of continued advocacy and pressuring for it are likely to be. Nor, is the seeking in such a situation merely just symbolic. It can have a variety of practical effects including: a) educating people about what Medicare for All might mean; b) influencing the context of the legislative process producing health care reform; and c) influencing and shaping the actual negotiations affecting that process.
Second, I wanted to sketch out the reflexivity trap progressives had gotten themselves into when they adopted the PO-based strategy for getting health care reform. Since a PO-based reform is a vague and ambiguous concept, that represents a moving target for reform, many different positions on the continuum of robustness of PO – based plans exist, and this reality of many choices that might fit the idea of the PO, fits perfectly with the many stages a bill goes through in our legislative system, to produce a de-generative spiral of gradual weakening of the PO as the process moves through its successive stages. The PO concept was tailor-made for gradual watering down in the crucible of legislative conflict, and commitment to it in the abstract by progressives, condemned them to a reflexive process that resulted in this gradual weakening of the PO, until the possibilities we see today were created by the progressives’ own PO advocacy-guided interaction with other parties in the process.
Third, I wanted to make it clear that progressives contributed vitally to the outcome we have now, by their choice to enter the reflexive process of getting the PO through the legislative process, while accepting as their goal trying to get the best PO-based plan they could at each stage of the process. As soon as they committed themselves in this way, they committed themselves to defeat and failure. They could have created a different social reality by just insisting on Medicare for All and refusing to enter negotiations on the type of PO that would be accepted as a compromise until the very last stages of the process. But they didn’t try this, because they were afraid of working against their new President, or of being marginalized as ideologues, or of engaging in a protracted conflict with their fellow Democrats.
And fourth, and last, of course, I wanted to try to prevent the lesson of the process we are currently still engaged in from being misconstrued. That lesson is not that the United States is not ready for a robust PO-based plan right now, and that we must keep trying to fight for one in the coming years and educating the public about what the PO is. That is the wrong lesson because it is a trap. It is a trap that results in 2000 page compromises full of loopholes. It is a trap because it involves endless negotiations about the precise variation of the PO idea that will be enacted. It is a trap because it opens legislation up to band-aid periods in which we fail to ends deaths, bankruptcies, and foreclosures due to lack of insurance coverage, and to endless negotiations about which parts of the population can enter the exchange and have access to the PO, and which cannot. It is a trap for countless other reasons as well.
The right lesson for progressives to learn now is that the present bill must be killed, because it is a terrible bill which makes the future worse, as I’ve argued here, here, here, and here. And, once it is killed, progressives also need to forget about advocating for the PO. The PO is not a goal, it is not something that can stand alone as an ideal that will excite people. It is a second-best tactical solution that we can accept only as an outcome that emerges at the end point of the legislative process, and only if Medicare for All, after all of our most intense efforts, can’t get through that process.
We cannot seek the PO in the context of an incremental legislative process, and expect to be successful. We must seek and work for, and move heaven and earth for, only Medicare for All, whether we believe we can pass it or not, and then, if we do fail to pass it, we must be prepared to use the desire of others for any reform bill, to compromise just once on a Jacob Hacker-type public option, without entering a multi-stage de-generative reflexive process that will kill the PO as an instrument for getting to Medicare for All.
(Also posted at the Alllifeisproblemsolving blog where there may be more comments)



256 Comments







If there ever is to be medicare for all, the first lesson needed to be learned is to beat the Republican Mouth Machine.
Not beat up on the DEM’s.
One has to defeat their enemies.
Even this morning Mitch McConnell was telling the people watching the American People don’t want this bill, and getting away with it.
He again said we think it’s the wrong way to go, forgetting the recent election, and stating they will fight to defeat this bill. He or no one knows the final outcome, so is against any kind of bill.
Sorry, iremember54. I attack the Republican Mouth Machine often enough, and there’s no shortage of Democrats to take care of what I don’t do. But the world is full of things that deserves criticism, and one of the things that has cost us dearly over the past year has been the departure from single-payer and the march behind the PO. If that continues, it will continue to cost the cause of health care reform. So the PO-based strategy needs to be cut off at the knees, now.
iremember54 writes:
The Republicans are going to do what they do; no point worrying about them. It was the Dems who sold us down the river on this. And both parties, and Versailles generally, are the enemy, not just the Republicans.
I Disagree, as long as You have the Republicans telling everybody how bad this is and getting away with it, You lose.
iremember54, Actually, the Republicans are helping us by criticizing the bill, at least insofar as they aren’t lying about it. With so many things wrong with it and with their careless disregard for consistency, they’re beginning to focus on actual things wrong with the bill, in addition to the stuff they just make up. Those things will ring true, and the only defense the Democrats will have against them is to pass a new bill.
Also, if we were to take your advice and fall silent, or only attack the Republicans, we’d already have lost. So, I’d just as soon attack all the people who are screwing up and not just those who happen to carry the Republican label.
Serious question:
If progressives in Congress had advocated for single payer/Medicare for All, knowing full well they couldn’t get it, when they fell back to a “robust” public option, would you have called them sellouts like you’ve done now that they’ve fallen back from a “robust” public option to what they have, say, in the House bill?
I guess you’re asking Lets, but answering for myself as a single-payer advocate who wants this bill killed, a real Hacker plan would have been a serious step toward single-payer, so I could’ve accepted that as the compromise.
But this potemkin thing, only a public option in name, covers almost no one and will do nothing to control costs. What it will do, when it fails at those, is be used as the emblem of government failure in future attempts to discredit any and all government action with health care.
if they’d been advocating for medicare for all the entire time, and grudgingly, at the end of all negotiations, accepted something along the lines of hacker’s ORIGINAL PO — open to everyone on day one, tax subsidies go only those who buy the po and none to people who buy private insurance — yes, i would have grumbled a lot, especially if the bill contained all the pie-in-the-sky voodoo ‘cost containment’ experiments that are in the present bill. and yes, i would have continued to point out all the things that would have been wrong with setting up yet another separate pool instead of just, say, putting all the uninsured directly into medicare, etc, etc, etc, but i would actually have encouraged my neighbors to support it.
If you had known way back in the beginning that you’d end up advocating ardently for healthcare reform that at best saves the government $2.5 Billion per year, contains no tried cost-containment measures, incentivizes cost increases through subsidies, and creates a huge regressive tax; would you still have thrown all your eggs in the HCAN basket?
Oh, and… the VA? Seriously? The VA? You think that a 6 million person PO, and the 8 Million person VA are going to see similar efficiencies based on their comparative size?
Hi Nathan, I think CBO forecast that the Senate PO would only get 3 million people. I’ll bet the United Health people are laughing all the way to the bank over that one.
Yeah, I noticed that too, and that seems incredibly generous considering the relatively meager penalties for not enrolling (which I intend to take full advantage of if they pass).
Setting up a cheap penalty, and forbidding pre-existing condition exclusions, is about as good as it’s going to get. It’s still a completely bullshit and broken system, but if they’re going to setup a huge turd that’s easy to exploit, then exploit it is exactly what I’ll do, until they produce something that isn’t a huge turd.
The cheap penalty will make the mandate less unpopular, and will just demote it to a nuisance tax for most people. I don’t think por people will buy the insurance. The subsidies aren’t tied to inflation, so the insurance will soon cost too much for poor and lower-middle class people to buy. They’ll just pay the nuisance tax or not, and not buy insurance until after they get sick, if they don’t die first.
Yep. Exactly. Which is precisely what I intend to do. I’m young and healthy, and knowing in advance that I can’t be turned away from a policy of some kind, even the PO as insurer of last-resort (which is all it seems to be now); I can drop my current incredibly expensive, shitty individual coverage, and hold out until I absolutely need something.
With a low penalty on the mandate, I view it as a minor fee for the privilege to buy insurance at that last possible second and saddle the payers with whatever my catastrophe is, having paid essentially nothing in. Honestly, considering the almost comically exploitive way the insurance companies and the government have generally tried to construct this artifice, I’d compel everyone I knew to do exactly the same. They’d be run out of business faster than you can say “testicular cancer.” Their medical-loss ratios would absolutely skyrocket.
This could be our strategy for the band-aid period. During this period people are entitled to get insurance from the high risk pool after being assigned to one of the private companies. This would drive up costs for these companies and might hurt them badly if we could also get some price controls through. Perhaps FDL ought to focus their efforts on getting price controls on premiums in hopes that we can drive the companies out of business before the PO takes effect?
I’ve yet to see a worthy rebuttal of *why* I’m wrong. I think the best that could be said would be I might be wrong. And I’ll concede, sure, I might be wrong. But I might be right.
What’s your definition of “worthy”? Seems like letsgetidone’s post is “worthy,” if that means supported by evidence and reasoning. I don’t notice you addressing the reflexivity issue — could you do that please? Thanks.
And speaking of “worthy rebuttals”:
Actually, what the self-identified progressive caucus (assuming there is such a thing and that it includes reps and lobbyists and access bloggers) did was pre-capitulate on single payer, then steadily and incrementally whittle down the public option from 130 million to the current very low number. That’s not at all the same thing as “pushing for a robust PO” and then “compromising at the end.”
As for “if what you’re saying is true, then good”… What on earth does that mean?
Because the thing that is novel about the VA isn’t it’s size. It’s the fact that it’s a completely socialized medical system. Unlike the PO, which was only novel because of its size, because it operates entirely within the current for-profit provider/payer system.
Unless it’s your belief that the PO is suddenly going to sprout a vast infrastructure of wholly owned and operated wards and hospitals across the country, and employ a similarly vast network of providers who operate on salary rather than fee-for-service?
The VA and the PO are two completely different paradigms. You’re smart enough to have been able to construct that rebuttal to the “8 Million Served” talking-point all on your own, it would have only required engaging your own argument in good faith.
My argument was simply that the VA has 8 million people and yet gets some of the lowest drug prices. The VA does not own the drug companies, it negotiates for those prices. Which proves the point that a government agency of that size can bargain with big interests effectively.
I’m not saying this necessarily will be the way things go with the public option, but they very well could.
You mean like compared to the ~70 million covered by UnitedHealth?
Jason, I didn’t see an answer to Nathan’s question.
Heh. Maybe it wasn’t “worthy.” I asked what a response needed in order to be “worthy,” but Jason was not interested in answering that either. Quelle surprise.
Given that you think that the HCR bills out the House and Senate are landmark legislation and represent giant strides forward in developing a National Health Care System, I would say the chances of you being right is about the same as threading camels hair through a needle. Let’s get Nate Silver to put numbers on that.
Thanks Jason, No, I wouldn’t have, and I think that’s very clear from the above diary. There’s nothing wrong with compromise, when you must compromise. The problem with orienting all the progressive organizations and Congress towatd getting the PO passed was that it involved 1) pre-compromise, and 2) got progressives enmeshed in the destructive reflexive process I’ve described above.
Btw, I can’t believe George Soros is happy with what you folks have done. First of all, George is acutely aware that any position he takes in trading is based on some theory, and then he looks for the real world to tell him that his theory isn’t working, because he knows that sooner or later every theory his trading is based on will prove false.
When reality tells him that one of his conjectures isn’t working he quickly moves to another theory and other positions dictated by that theory. In fact, he approaches trading with one theory he favors and a number of others on the shelf, as it were. In other words, he plan for failure. It’s what he expects.
The results of your theory that backing the PO would result in a good hcr bill were apparent quite some time ago when the House Committees and the Senate HELP committee all produced these band-aid bills with emasculated POs. See, for example this analysis. But you (HCAN) never changed strategy, just kept pushing the PO at every phase of the legislative process. If George had been running your operation, he’d have long since shifted to another strategy.
Interesting to hear all the responses.
Seeing as this is basically what the progressive caucus did, push for a robust PO but compromise at the end, I’m not sure I actually believe what you and others have been said, but if what you’re saying is true, then good.
Typical revisionist hoohaw, but I fixed it for you.
you saved me the trouble of doing that.
Yes, they folded when HR 3200 first hit the street.
Jason, Did you really read this post, or do you just hope that no one seeing your comment will have read it?
I’ve suggested that we all should have advocated for Medicare for All, never for the PO. There should not have been a peep, not one solitary peep, about the PO until progressives were offered Jacob Hacker’s original design at the very end in each House. There should have been no organizations advocating for the PO. No funding for educating people about the PO. No ads for the PO. No pundits talking about the PO, and certainly o groups of PO telling everyone how impossible it would be to get single-payer passed.
Rather PO people should have kept their mouths shut until there was a deadlock in Congress between the progressive single-payer people and everyone else. Then and only then should anyone have brough up the PO as a possible middle ground.
Right, and my question was, after that compromise was agreed to and passed, would you have called it a sellout? You say no, I’m heartened by that response, if indeed that’s how this hypothetical would have played out.
What on earth do the semantics matter?
I think Jason is asking whether I would have supported a Hacker-type PO as a compromise at the end, or called out the people who agreed to it as sell-outs. I think the answer is that I would have supported it had I either agreed that the votes were not there for Medicare for All, or recognized that my own judgment that they were there wasn’t something I could be sure about. That is, if there was a material chance of losing reform entirely or compromising on a Hacker-type PO, I’d certainly support a compromise since I don’t believe in excessive risk-taking.
Letsgetitdone, jason writes:
I read that as a concern that people will say bad things, and Jason will lose face. In other words, the typical concern of a Versailles courtier (albeit a very low level one).
Lambert, I read it as Jason’s test to see whether I’m an ideologue or not. I have a test for him too. Specifically, what would the Congress have to do to the hcr bill for you and HCAN to decide to recommend its defeat? If Jason, can say what that is, he will have passed my ideological purity test.
lgid, I’m with you on the battle ahead. I’ve had to modify the Jason Axiom: if reform propositions actually do rock the status quo, they should be taken off the table. HCAN has failed miserably, on purpose.
Not sure why you’re heartened, I’ve posted a lot here over the past months and my mantra has always been that compromise is appropriate, but pre-compromise never is. My major complain about the PO as a solution was that the liberal organizations tried to sell it, rather than letting it emerge from the conflict over single-payer.
Progressives have been trying to avoid that conflict since Harry Truman. Times have changed. It’s time to fight another war over this, and not try to finesse a reform with all kinds of fancy moves. Propose Medicare for All, take it to the people, and let us all fight for it. This time we will win.
I believe it was Keynes who said:
Somebody should tell HCAN’t and the access bloggers about this, if Soros’s concept of “reflexivity” is too much for them.
Pethaps Obama can use that quote in supporting his decision in Afghanistan — if he makes the right one.
Sorry, Jason. Not interested.
[rimshot. laughter]
letsgetitdone offers a great analysis of what happened this year. I hope he will occasionally join us shrill single payer advocates at CorrenteWire.
Hi dcblogger, From one shriller to another, why not? What do I need to do?
Sign up for an account. I’m pretty rapid in approving them, though it’s not instant. You’ll need a valid email address.
OK. Sometime in the next couple of days. How’s the software for posting?
Much like this software, I would think. Toolbar puts HTML in, unless you want to type it, there’s a preview function, etc. There is more done in terms of autogenerating glossary entries and links, but not your concern, I think. We’ve been using for three years or so, so it’s pretty robust….
Good. I have a little bit of adjustment when I transfer here from my own blog site.
I agree with your conclusion. This bill needs to be killed. It has just gotten worse and worse. Individual mandates to buy unusable “junk” insurance, sweetheart deals with drug companies, nothing to contain costs except vague promises from insurers, pharma, and BigMedicine and real plans to cut Medicare, limitations on women’s healthcare like the Stupak amendment, and, of course, the amazing shrinking PO. Medicare for All is an advertising dream: short, comprehensible, and powerful. It wasn’t just that the PO was a more complicated concept and sell. It was that it was never defined. How could it be explained or defended? How could anyone draw any red lines around it? No one knew what it was.
The benefit of a clear message like Medicare for All is that it would have made framing the debate much easier. It would have put politicians on the spot: “Whom do you choose: Americans or insurance companies?” This is precisely the kind of clearcut choice that simpleminded newscasters that infest the MSM love. If you say you are for Americans, you are voting for Medicare for All. Any other answer means you are voting against the American people.
I would point out too that Medicare for All would have made for a vastly simpler bill and a much shorter debate. So the timeline to keep pressure on legislators would have been much more feasible. It would have been much harder for them to stonewall or engage in delaying techniques.
But to be honest, I don’t put much stock in these what-ifs. The truth is the Republicans were crazy and manipulative (that was a given) but House progressives, the Blue Dogs, the mainline Democrats, the leadership, and Obama were all beyond pathetic. I should throw the MSM and Jane’s veal pen into this category as well. The fix was in from the beginning. It wasn’t just single payer advocates who were left out in the cold in this process but the American people. Even back in March, the Establishment players were all lined up ready to go. That had to take a certain amount of coordination but none of those involved thought to include their constituents or their memberships in the process. It was all elites talking to elites talking to industry. Everyone else was excluded.
What I think we need to take away from this experience is the importance of sticking to our principles, adherence to solutions that work, and maintaining our credibility. We need to be able to say this is what we think, that we are taking a wait and see approach, this is what the proposed legislation does and does not do, and if and when it becomes unacceptable we need to move clearly and early into opposition. To do anything else invites compromising our bottomlines out of existence and coming up with legislation that not only will not work but will be a disaster with our name on it.
Hugh, I entirely agree. Even about the “what-ifs.” We’ll never have the capacity to predict a sequence of events in the way that is required by a narrative like the one given above. However, we also have to grant that no one does very well in predicting the exact course of a sequence of events. So, for example, when Jane says that it’s not possible to kill this bill, we ought to be as skeptical about that kind of assertion as we are about anything I’ve said above. We just don’t know, in detail, how people would react to a sudden move by progressives to kill this bill.
The difficulties we have in predicting the course of human affairs, also underlines how reckless it was for the PO people to assume that taking single-payer off the table would be helpful to the PO’s chances to get accepted. It was just stupid for them to think they could predict the future well enough to know whether or not getting single-payer off the table would help them or hurt them. As I argue above, I think it certainly did hurt the PO’s chances, and also the chances of getting a good health care reform.
It was a collosally presumptuous decision to make, that, as I say in the title of my diary, “universal health care as a civil and human right was not possible for THIS GENERATION!” As someone aging in this generation, I want and deserve universal health care in my lifetime. What EVERY OTHER industrial nation has achieved.
It was horrifying enough to see a President back-pedaling on his promise to reform, to change the status quo, but then to have one’s own presumed progressive coalition make such a “low barred” stance, of course, the pols were eager to dance with the progressives who were asking the least from them, public option rather than universality. Stepping up to negotatiate from that stance, ignoring the rest of the progressives, made them obstructionists to the earnest UNIVERSAL health care, single payer medicare for all movement in this country.
And now that po progressives were burned so profoundly — only TWO of their progressive Congresspeople kept their promise and voted against a bill that did not have a “robust” public option after all that media hype, after so many people learning but never quite grasping what the buzz words of “public option” really meant, when they could have been hearing “universal health care” to inspire their moral imaginations — why aren’t the public option people madder than hell and willing to take it to the mattresses and punish that betraying House of Reps??? A WH that played them????? That put them in a veal pen?
So, why not unite with the citizenry and fellow progressives and declare political war on a Congress and Prez who have SO FRIGGIN’ SOLD US OUT!!!!???? Why not take it to the mattresses? Why not back Bernie Sanders S703 bill? It is there. It is coming up for a vote.
Don’t let need for guarantee of a political win or frustrated ego stand in the way of fighting for what is right and moral and is the ultimate goal, universal health care. Everyone in, nobody out. Is that not the prize our eyes should be on.
Principles above personalities in this moral battle. The next generation is not gonna have it easier than us. They are going to have it harder if we shrug and watch Congress sell us out more and more and more. And the window is closing on this.
Media is not our friend. Congress is not. The Prez is not. So we need each other as citizens to ROAR about our RIGHT and not be conned one more time. This is the “long con”. Let’s nip it now.
Don’t confuse politics with goals.
Politics is the art of the possible — a matter of perception.
Goals — well, think Mao, Nixon, or Ho Chi Minh.
Art45, Not sure what you mean by perceptions, but I think that what we do in politics depends on the way we see, on our theories, and the one thing we can be sure of about our theories is that they are most often wrong. The most recent theories of progressives about how to get health care reform passed were wrong. We see that now, very clearly. The ones who acted on the basis of these theories and who arrogantly excluded others from the process who had other theories, need now to be honest and to admit that they were wrong, and above all to change their behavior, starting right now.
It was a set up from the getgo. The DLCer/ClintonRubinistas wanted this insurance company giveaway just as they collaborated on the Bush era Medicare Plan D. Baucus helped with that too.
Medicare for All has never been debated in all these years and this was a chance for it finally to have a hearing. But no political capital or real capital went in educating the public. Why? Obama never wanted this. You could tell that from the primaries. He ran on foreign policy (being, ha, ha, against the Iraq war) and changing Washington but with no specifics until, annoyingly, Edwards made him talk about health care.
This has all been a distraction from the biggest heist of our taxes in our history. It has also been yet another tactic used in applying Milton Friedman/Chicago School shock therapy to the U.S. Russ is right. When this foolish fakery fails, this will further anger Americans about a “government” that can’t do anything right. Then they will go after Social Security. This is standard operating procedure. Ask the Chileans and the Russians.
We are all sharecroppers no longer even given food and shelter by the master.
We need to create “freedom zones” like they do in India where Monsanto is frozen out of the community. We need people’s banks/credit unions that use the interest to help the community. We need worker owned companies. We need to cut up our credit cards.
But most of all we need to stop looking to Washington to do anything remotely democratic. The coup has already taken place. It is time to identify as part of the resistance or as being collaborators.
Got a link on those Indian freedom zones?
Lambert, I am reading Ellen Brown’s “Web of Debt” and she talks about them in the book. It sounded good, but I admit, I haven’t checked it out.
This is exactly right.
How many years can a strategy and tactic have a 100% failure rate before we have to realize that those who still advocate it are in fact collaborators?
How far back does this failure record go? At least throughout the Clinton administration.
And then there’s the fact that those who claim to believe in the “regulations” and “restrictions” of this bill are either utterly impervious to the evidence of decades now that regulation does not work, that it is not enforced, that it is gutted, or else they’re lying.
These are the same Washington criminals who deregulated Wall Street and are now using the current farce of “finance reform” to seek, disaster capitalist style, to further entrench the criminal system and the looting mechanism.
Now they expect anyone with half a brain to believe they’ll regulate insurers?! The health racket bill has the same intent as the finance bills: to further enrich the insurance and drug gangsters, further entrench them and, looking ahead to when insurance will be utterly unaffordable by anyone who’s not rich, to use the IRS as a legbreaker to extract whatever few drops of blood can still be squeezed from that turnip. So in the end this is intended to be a bailout as well.
(They’re also trying to do the same for Big Ag, destroying small producers in the process, as in bills like HR 2749.)
That’s our traitor government.
Hi mm, well then let’s get on with resistance!
Jason, I’m sorry to say but you look like a man trying to sell us a giraffe and we’re thinking, hang on, that’s not a giraffe, that’s a horse you’ve painted patches on.
Support Bernie Sanders’ bill S 703. Give the president a call at 1-800-578-4171, and/or call a Senator or more. Four toll-free switchboard numbers for the Senate and House: 1-800-828-0498, 1-866-338-1015, 1-866-220-0044, and 1-800-473-6711. Or email or write. It matters. The more the better.
List of senators:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
Thanks for the numbers and the link, lib.
letsgetitdone,
You’ve given us a lot of good stuff here, thanks. Another unfortunate aspect of how this has played out is that now Obama and the Democrats are in the position of desperately needing to pass some kind of healthcare bill, no matter how shitty. They have to produce some kind of result just to allow themselves to declare ‘victory’ and stave off an electoral disaster in the 2010 mid-term elections. So instead of having a healthy debate about the policy particulars in the bill, we’re hanging on by the fingernails and hoping to pass a crummy bill just to save face.
This is precisely what’s happening, eagleye. Everyone continues to back the crappy bill to save face.
I suspect this is a fatal flaw in progressive ideology. The progressives have this utopian notion that they are going to create a world of peace, freedom, and equality while leaving the existing political and economic systems intact, and so their political lives are busied in the process of compromising away their half-thought-out ideals because the existing system is malignant through and through.
Oh, hey, and it’s nice to see you hear again letsgetitdone! I’m impressed with your blogwork.
Thanks cassiodorus. Old-style progressives (read New Deal progressives) weren’t afraid of making substantial changes in the rules of the game. Some of our problems today are due to repealing dome of the wise measures they put in. I suppose I think that the way in which those progressives were different is that they weren’t afraid of experiments and vast changes no matter who it hurt and who got po’ed (excuse the terrible pun). But, of course, in the ’30s, a lot of the really good people worked for Roosevelt. Today, the good ones are locked out of the Administration, and all we have are people who play footsy with the Street.
Thanks letsgetitdone. It’s nice to see you here; when I blog I usually post over at DailyKos.com and Docudharma.com. I think it’s important to remember that Roosevelt-era programs were a compromise between the elites in power and a “Left” which was a whole lot more “left-wing” than what we see in mainstream politics today.
At this point I think the big question is this: a bill will pass, the band-aid period will begin. What next?
Thanks eagleye, Not only that, but they’re engaged in incredible efforts at self-justification involving falt-out lies about what these bills will do. It’s all a big mistake.
They ought to retreat and pass a regulatory bill that ends the worst abuses, and then pass a separate bill under reconciliation that controls insurance company premium increases, limiting them to the general rate of inflation. These measures would allow them to declare a limited but important victory, clearly in the interests of people, and without giving anything to the insurance companies.
And then they could come back early next year strong, pushing for Medicare for All, and run the don’t compromise unless you have to and not until the end in any case scenario, I’ve been suggesting. These moves are a recipe for progressive success, not failure. And the same goes for this Administration, as well.
The result will be just what Obama-Rahma has been pushing for from the first. The Administration is not in favor of universal health care at all and their behavior in this story proves it.
A propos of the thinking pattern, if any, of “progressive” access bloggers, here’s Chris Bowers quoted as charging single payer advocates with demanding that Open Left “fanatically [support] single-payer” — when, of course, what single payer advocates were demanding was that Open Left live up to its name and end its editorial policy of blacking out all single payer coverage.
Thanks for the link. I think Vastleft did a great job in his presentation and argument. I also think that my diary just above has something to add to the conversation.
Thanks!
I read the highly interesting excerpt from this post on Correntewire, and now I’m settling in to read it in full, and to read through this thread.
If you pick up the Open Left thread from the top, you’ll find a few other comments I made on this topic:
http://www.openleft.com/diary/16087/finding-the-keys
Again, thx!
Lambert, thanks for the link.
FYI, the “fanatical” trope came not from Chris Bowers, but from Open Left’s Paul Rosenberg.
The top of the thread is here:
http://www.openleft.com/diary/16087/finding-the-keys
Once mildew gets in the garden….
Thanks I found Paul’s blog to be a very dangerous piece for the progressive movement. The philosophy it expresses is that of party discipline over all. If the progressive movement followed his advice, it would lose its capacity to recognize and correct errors, because this capacity to adapt depends on being being free to criticize past actions and decisions of the movement, and it also depend son the willingness of people to open themselves to criticism and to be willing to change when reality demands it. As I said in responding to Jason, It was apparent by June that the PO-based strategy was failing and its failure was a near certainty by July unless the President totally changed direction. Yet none of the veal pen groups or web-based organizations like Open Left changed their tune about the PO-based strategy.
I think this was due to the kind of philosophy about proper movement behavior expressed by Paul Rosenberg in his blog. What we see there is not progressivism. It is the beginning of authoritarianism. Internal movement politics must never trump the spirit of criticism and inquiry in progressivism. When it does, progressivism will have killed the ghosts of Peirce, James, and John Dewey, as well as the essence of real Democracy, and lost its soul.
Would the phrase “authoritarian follower” be a propos?
I think so, but Paul will get insulted.
It’s too bad it’s illegal to attempt to learn any lessons from the 2008 primaries, as I’ve been repeatedly reminded, because we might have learned a thing or two about groupthink and authoritarianism on the left.
(Note: As a few bloggers like Big Tent Democrat, Avedon Carol, and Arthur Silber demonstrated, recognizing that didn’t require you to support the out-class candidate, so it’s not a matter of whom you preferred. Just of whether you noticed and were appalled by Hobson’s-choice-or-else politics.
I wonder, will post-mortems of the health-care debate prove to be as unwelcome as post-mortems of the primaries, response to which makes Israel/Palestine debates seem a peaceable topic in comparison….
I hope not, but I’m afraid we’re already moving into that stage and we’re already seeing an unwillingness to debate civilly. As for me, I just don’t want the wrong lesson to be learned a second time, and I’m afraid that if the PO proponents don’t accept that the problem this time was monolithic PO advocacy, we’ll just have years of spinning our wheels over the PO. Do you know that Jane, Marcy Wheeler, and nyceve have formed a non-profit called Public Option Please?
Actually having a public option that is open to everyone and with competitive prices would benefit me, and a whole lot of other people. That isn’t, however, what the public options currently on offer will do. Hamsher and her minions are using up precious time and resources with the symbolic “victory” that these bills are supposed to represent.
Perhaps stripping this bill of its public option would strengthen their cause, because they’d stop fighting for it, and then they’d have to go back to fighting for something they really want.
Of course, the culprits in incivility are always the heretics. Y’know, the crazy purists who talk out of turn and ruin everything!
And, no, I hadn’t heard about the non-profit. What’s up with that?
Its the “Dab the Cancer with a damp Q-tip, Please” Fund.
I already gave them $100! /s.
Check it out:
http://publicoptionplease.com/
You couldn’t be more right.
The returns are in, and a few short years after “crashing the gate,” the progressive blogosphere has clearly become a place of unyielding orthodoxies, and its heroes are as unassailable as Bush and Rush were to their lockstep dittoheads.
Someone ought to study how the new media became like the old media so very quickly, and despite — no doubt — tons of, as they say, good intentions.
That’s really interesting. Progressives often refer to teh Washington Media Elite as villagers. Are most of us “villagers” too?
Most, I don’t know. Probably not, though loyalty to top bloggers is near-absolute, so it may appear even more village-y than it is.
Most at the top? All evidence says yes.
You might ask selise sometime about transparency in the left side of the blogosphere. The problem of opaqueness and insider vs. outsiders in the left blogosphere has been around pretty much from the beginning. You really only need to look at firedoglake to see how frontpagers have coordinated their position on single payer vs. the public option. That coordination takes place outside of the view of the rest of the fdl community. Thinking back to the primaries, Jane often acted as if as long as she didn’t take an official position on an issue that this was the same as not having taken a position at all on it. There is also a kind of schizophrenia. fdl is portrayed as a community. But when Jane makes a decision like bringing Jason on board without consulting that community, all of a sudden fdl is her blog and the rest of us can suck it up or leave.
I’ve been at odds with HCAN Illinois for months. I wrote one blog post on my local blog partially agreeing and partially disagreeing with them and they attacked me. I spoke at a meeting, after having been invited as an attorney familiar with the bills, and they stopped my speech only a few minutes in (and I hadn’t made one disparaging comment about the public option and hadn’t argued for single payer, I just went through the original version of the HELP bill that had just be introduced).
They seemed to be more interested in stopping discussion of single payer than arguing with the republicans and insurance industry. HCAN members sat on our local single payer yahoo group and told members that discussion of single payer (on a single payer yahoo group) needed it stop and sent dozens of posts intended to take over the site with public option advocacy. They also came to political discussion meetings and tried to get the sponsor to stop all talk of single payer during the discussion. Credit goes to that sponsor for refusing. It all left me wondering what was going on in HCAN.
lambertstrether, I’ve had several instances of my own blog posts being blacked out for discussion of single payer. One major blog that allows me to post changed a title of one of my posts to make it look like the event on which I reported was for the public option when it really leaned single payer.
I’ve concluded that the fight for the public option was not so much a fight for health care reform as it was a fight to keep the progressive grassroots in control (some through recruitment to organizations like HCAN and OFA and others through censorship) so Obama and Congressional Democrats could push through a bill that favors industry over reform.
That’s quite an indictment, one which I can’t document, but also one that confirms what I’ve suspected. I haven’t had any problems here at the Lake in The Seminal section during the months I’ve been blogging here. My first blog here was on July 16 this year. I’ve had no moderation since my blogging began and no moderation in relation to my comments.
Last week, I had a small problem with one of my posts, and I wrote to the mods for help. Jason Rosenbaum replied to me very helpfully and my problem was soon cleared up by following his advice. On another occasion, I had even a more minor problem and Scarecrow kindly helped me out. On some of my comments on her posts or some of her replies to mine I’ve gotten sharp and critical commentary from Jane suggesting that my approach is unrealistic. However, I didn’t feel that any of her commentary was out of bounds or marginalizing, beyond what one normally gets from critics.
I think I can conclude that this site is open to single-payer bloggers and commenters and very free and non-censoring in its approach, though none of the bloggers writing in sections of Firedog Lake other than The Seminal are Medicare for All bloggers. Also, it should be noted that Many SP people are members here. In September I did a diary compiling a list of members who favored SP. It was a long list. You can check it out here.
Wow! This is an important, very important comment. I too had my title changed to something about the public option. Your comments are very insightful. A whole lot of manipulation going on? Or just wanting to be players. Whatever the reason, we are in very strange times.
mm, Did you have your titles changed here?
Are you Ellen from the 10th? [waves] Love your blog!
Thank you for recounting your experience with HCAN. Early on, I contributed to HCAN because it was the only group running ads in Tennessee. I appreciated what they were doing.
Imo, however, HCAN has been too willing to accept compromises w/in compromises w/in compromises in the name of getting something – anything – called health care reform passed. Same with OFA.
I think the problem with that is that they end up more interested in carrying water for the failures of Democrats in Congress and in the White House than in achieving real health care reform, so much so that they end up playing politics with health care reform rather than try to reform health care.
Anyway, those are my impressions.
And that’s a problem, why? :v)
Great, sobering comment, ellenbeth!
One quibble: “Netroots playas” or Lambert’s “access bloggers” might be more apropos than “grassroots,” perhaps?
I think so. We have a good many access bloggers don’t we?
it sure has been revealing of certain tendencies and roles, hasn’t it?
using authentic grassroots organizing and methods to make faux grassroots formations squirm awkwardly on their own contradictions has been kind of amusing, though.
one of the greatest threads and posts on here – will have lasting reference value. Perhaps Jane will even grace it with a perusal?
Thanks spork, I appreciate that. Who knows, Jane has commented on some of my stuff before.
Thank you, letsgetitdone: an exhaustive and very accurate analysis.
Thank you, Grumpy. I appreciate it.
Oh well. There will be a bill, and the band-aid period will begin. What next?
Next, we mercilessly call attention to every flaw in the band-aid period and encourage people to come back to the table immediately and pass SP. We’ve got to make sure that this bill is toast within 6 months of its taking effect.
Sorry I’m coming in late. Got stuck in a conversation with SouthernDragon that ended nowhere. Anyway, I’d like to contribute here if I can and will just have to hope I’m not repeating what’s already been said.
letsgetitdone wrote:
Agreed, gaggles of activists of all stripes trying to work piecemeal to make real reform happen has been a failure. The argument I was just having on another thread had to do with the apparent lack of response here at FDL to Lincoln having openly threatened on the Senate floor what’s left of a public option yesterday.
letsgetitdone went on, if I understood him correctly, to present a hypothetical scenario in which leaders had actually led.
That’s really the problem, isn’t it? Pelosi tried to lead, but was too much alone, imo. The Progressive Caucus failed to act strategically to get what they wanted. President Obama and Rahm just stood back as far as I can tell. Reid found a backbone, but far too little and way too late.
The question now has to be where to go from here.
Killing this bill will mean waiting until the next Democrat takes office. Sorry, but that’s a political fact (or at least a real possibility that anyone calling for the sinking of hcr now must seriously consider).
My point: to achieve anything politically, strategic thinking forward based on where we are now must take precedence over all other consideration.
Hi Knox, You said:
Well, Knox, first of all, it’s not a political fact. It’s a prediction about the future. What basis have you for this prediction. Are there some universal laws established in political science or some other human behavioral discipline that supports your prediction strongly enough to warrant your certainty about this?
As I read the situation, we’re not in 1994. Our health insurance problems are much more serious now. If this bill is killed, I think there’ll be an outcry against the Democrats that they won’t be able to ignore, and next year, or perhaps even a few days after it’s killed, there’ll be another and better bill on the table. Obama will walk away from this as Clinton did in 1994, only at his own peril.
Of course, I have no laws of political or social science to appeal to in making this prediction. But, in this respect my prediction is no different from yours. the only way to decide which is the better prediction is to talk about the factors that you think will allow the Democrats to walk away, and I, in turn, can point out why these won’t be enough to let them do so.
When Clinton failed in ’94 and then the House and Senate went to Republicans, Clinton was never again able to do anything major toward reforming the health care system overall.
You’re right to say that we’re not in ’94 and, chances are, the House and Senate won’t go to the Republicans next year. But they will increase their numbers.
Your notion that the next step from the failure of something like H R 3962 is up toward something like H R 676, and that that step would come in days or maybe in the next year as a result of some great outcry is, I’m sorry to say, unrealistic.
The reason why I used to write – and then finally got sick of writing – that this opportunity is once-in-a-generation is because it is, though you correctly point out that things have gotten bad enough that something better must be achieved sooner than the 2030s.
This would have been correct had our leaders actually known how to lead and put a better bill on the table in the first place and reduced debate, i.e. not allowed so many alternatives and weaker versions and confusion. Instead, we got a failure of leadership and gaggles of activists of all stripes trying to work piecemeal only to spiral down and down to garbage.
Now, Obama will get something called health care reform to sign. And, after Obama signs whatever Congress gives him, the only way that we’ll have an opportunity to make real changes soon is if the current health care system actually collapses.
Sorry, Knox, I don’t think you’ve answered my question. Remember that my prediction is conditional on progressives joining with Republicans and killing this bill. If that doesn’t happen, I agree that it may take a few years for the issue to come back since people will have to get sick of the band-aid period.
But, on the other hand, if it were to happen, then I predicted that the Democrats would take up reform again in the very short run because the failure and the outcry is not something any of them could tolerate. You’ve really not talked to this point. 1994 is entirely irrelevant to it. So is your point that the Democrats might lose the Senate, since I’m suggesting that they will take it up again before the election of 2010.
You said:
That’s not my notion. My notion is that if progressives kill HR 3962, then when the leadership comes back with a new attempt, they can tell the leadership that they are supporting HR 3962, and will not consider the PO again because it was a nest of vipers. At that point, they just sit back, and let the Administration, the blue dogs, and the leadership come to them. Then let’ see what happens. I’m not predicting that the progressives will get HR 676, but they might well get a real Hacker-type PO, if they hold out for one.
You also said:
Well, that’s my point exactly. That’s why I want progressives to kill this bill, so Obama doesn’t have anything to sign, so that he’s facing defeat. That’s the only thing that will make him reconsider hcr before 2010. On the other hand, if progressives don’t kill it, and fight hard to get that sick PO, then we may well be sitting here for a long time suffering through Alan Grayson’s Republican solution cast in a Democratic guise.
The bill doesn’t have to be killed, it just needs to have the PO stripped out of it. I say this because the fake PO that will undoubtedly emerge will effectively cut off any urgency for revisiting the issue until, as you say, the next Democrat in office. Pass recision and pre-existing conditions clauses and work to price control rates as they will undoubtedly increase rapidly in 2010. Then, do what lgid suggests, push for Medicare-for-all and settle for a robust PO supported by tax subsidies inwhich anyone can buy in. All we can do is contribute to Democrats selectively and keep up the pressure. The time to have done health care reform was leading up to the 2010 elections when Democrats could be effectively pressured to act like Democrats. It was a huge strategic blunder (or was it?) for Obama-Rahma to try to get it out of the way this year.
Yes, it was. They found the best strategy to win in ’93, but forgot to take into account that we’re in 2009!
If I understood everything earlier in your comment, you’re talking about stripping out whatever would have been real health care reform – because it’s already been ruined – and turning what’s left into a new round of strict insurance regulations, then fight on for medicare-for-all later in the hope of ending up with a robust public option, which would be the most logical step in ultimately achieving medicare-for-all.
I agree with you in principle, but I’m not sure how any of that is to be accomplished from the position we’re now in.
Let the Republicans and the Conserva-Dems in the Senate do it for us. You know they’ve been threatening to do it from the first. Take out the PO and Mary and Ben and Joe and Blanche will be so delighted to vote for a stripped out bill. Quit putting so much pressure on poor Harry, can’t you just leave the weasel alone for one minute? Then nail his rear to the wall in the 2010 elections. If anybody needs to pistol whip Harry its us. If he can be their tool because he’s weak, then he can just as easily be our tool.
Knox, we can only accomplish this by calling our people and telling them that we want them to kill this bill because it’s a giveaway to the insurance companies, and doesn’t end the fatalities, bankruptcies, and foreclosures, and that the only bill that will end that is HR 676. Tell them that you want them to kill this bill and replace it with HR 676. And then just keep repeating this song. call, write, organize and demonstrate. Get rid of the veal pen organizations by sending our money to real single-payer organizations.
I think that’s an excellent idea. I’m going to write my Senator, Tom Harkin, again today. I wrote to him a few weeks ago and told him to just scrap this legislation, and I told him I’m not alone in this stance, that he’s going to see more and more people calling for him to kill the bill and support Single Payer.
Now you’ve given me an idea: why not write my Republican Senator, that asshole Grassley, and tell him I agree with him? Tell him he should do everything in his power to kill this bill?
Good idea. Just don’t tell him you’re for single-payer. It might make him vote for the bill. -:) -:) -:) -:)
Hi cb, If you need subsidies for it, it’s not really Medicare for All. In HR 676, enhanced Medicare with no co-pays and no deductibles is a right of every American. The bill fully funds it too. But in a depression, perhaps we shouldn’t fully fund it since deficit financing is stimulative.
If everyone buys in, the subsidies become redundant overtime and unsustainable. Ergo, we get universal health care to maintain the “status quo” because its simply the only way to proceed. This what I call, organic public policy making.
I agree with that and have written something similar earlier.
So, do you think the Dems have yet figured out that the backside of a negative feedback loop awaits them in 2010? I just know they will realize they haven’t been acting enough like Republicans when it happens. I find it amusing that they have been riding this loop since 1976 and can’t seem to get off. Time to stick a fork in them, for the good of the Country.
Well, let’s wait to see what happens. But if they go right, then yes, I think they’re done.
Unfortunately, you are seeing what happened. That’s why you’re so worked up about it. You know, if it were just Health Care, the current situation could be characterized as a strategic blunder, but everything the Obama Administration has touched has turned to crap on purpose: (1) bankster reform not, (2) torture accountability not, (3) telecom immunity you bet, (4) credit card reform not, (5) reigning in the military-industrial complex not, (6) ending the Wars not, (7) jobs creation not. I could go on, but you know all of this. Here on the Watchtower we see it every day. These are the worst of times for democracy, let us hope they turn out to be the best of times too.
Well, you and I are in agreement. Whether these are the best of times or not depends on the pressure we can bring to bear on this Administration.
Earlier this evening, in a comment here on another of my diaries, selise, whose commentary I value highly and have found to be very accurate, said of the above diary:
I recommend going to selise’s comment and following her links.
Selise, great work. Is there a timeline anywhere?
I note that TBA was held March 19, 2008, with familiar faces Jacob Hacker and Ezra Klein.
However, Town House access blogger Matt Stoller seems to be sending a similar signal on health care here, on February 2, 2008. (Original). Stoller predicted that health care wouldn’t be a priority for Obama at all, which turned out to be wrong. What I’d guess is that Stoller’s post reflects internal Democratic dissession prior to TBA.
Kremlinology!
MODERATOR: Spam alert! Thanks….
just read the post, not the comments yet, but !!! letsgetitdone lays down chapter and verse! on the subject.
“reflexivity trap” what a great phrase, and concept. there are a lot of them around, as well.
Thanks spork. Yes there are. Politics and human life are shot through with them. Take Obama and Afghanistan. He said, long ago, that Afghanistan was the right war. Now there are only 100 al qaeda members in the whole country. But he’s in a reflexivity trap. He needs to get out for all sorts of reasons. But he’s the one who said we need to be in there, so he can’t just choose withdrawal, unless he suddenly morphs into somebody like Harry Truman.
but he’s reversed himself on so much of the rest of his campaign rhetoric, why not make it a clean sweep and reverse himself on his promise to escalate and focus on Afghanistan?!?!
anyway, reflexivity trap – now I’ll be seeing them everywhere. your comment on Soros’ trading philosophy was good, as well. Inflexibility and self-satisfied certainty do not a billionaire trader make.
is he a major funder of HCAN – was that the subtext there? nice.
Hey where’s Jason? off the clock I suppose.
and replying to vastleft at 101 – this post and thread are going to be great to refer back to for lessons learned, if one should find oneself in conversations with folks who are refusing to ponder hard lessons.
great you like Arthur Silber. he’s got the strong medicine over there, doesn’t he.
I think we should look for reflexivity traps everywhere. We’ll find them, and finding them will increase our understanding of why people are acting in the way that they do.
On George’s funding for HCAN, I don’t know how much he contributed, but I read somewhere that two contributors accounted for most of the $40 million they raised, and that George was one of the two funders. I know nothing about the breakdown however. I think that John Podesta, who has a relationship with George is the connection who facilitated the link between HCAN and George. Podesta of course was Bil Clinton’s Chief of Staff and also, along with Caroline Kennedy was in charge of helping Obama with his Cabinet, VP, and White House solutions. John Podesta is really a key player in the elite network on the Democratic/progressive side.
hmm. now this may be a tangent, but do you think Soros would be a proponent/advocate/funder of real, systemic, favored-campaign-funder-damaging HC reform, but then Podesta steered him to HCAN because he knew they were going to be a safe member of the veal pen?
and so then Soros might observe and orient after the recent legislative debacle and decide to commit funding to where it could do SP USA some good?
A lot of US businesses could be more globally competitive if they could get the insurance lampreys off of their necks.
The thing you need to remember about Soros is that he does not spend his money in opposition to his own interests. So when he funds something he is not going to spend his money in the most effective way but rather in the most acceptable way. In short, he won’t fund the netroots, i.e. us (so no, the check will never be in the mail). He might fund a “liberal” group or start up his own think tank (as he did not so long ago on global warming) but these are not going to be cutting edge organizations or with the best ideas. I always sort of wondered about Robert Johnson working for him as an economist because Johnson seems like he is willing to say things that I just can’t see or have heard Soros do.
Hugh, I’m not sure about this statement. He funds organizations all the time that support activities supporting open society. He’s done that all over the world. It’s work that doesn’t have an obvious connection to any financial interest of his, and he seems unconcerned about that. I can’t cite chapter and verse because I’ve never studied this, but I think that he does a lot of things that have no obvious connection to his financial interests.
I also think he has a great concern for the future of Democracy and open society in the US. It was one of the reasons why he was so active against Bush. Bush didn’t threaten Soros financially. What he did was to threaten george’s notion of what the United States ought to be.
That’s rather my point. Soros will fund where his financial interests are not concerned precisely because they aren’t. On the right we see a vast array of institutes and think tanks which we have derisively, half enviously call wingnut welfare. This system is funded and maintained by wealthy conservatives. Even though we do much better work, we see nothing comparable on the left. At $50,000 a piece, the wealthy on the left, like Soros, could fund 40 topnotch bloggers for a couple million dollars a year. That’s a lot of money to us but not that much to them, and nothing like what the right pays out each year.
During the Bush years, one of our big problems was the rightwing control of the news. Well, that still exists, but the issue was raised at the time of why a Soros could not fund a new media project to begin to combat all the propaganda and misinformation that was being put out each day. Never happened. What pushback we managed to make was done with our own time, money, and resources.
Then too there are Soros’ statements in support of Obama and his policies. I have often said that both Soros and Buffett are in a class by themselves in what they do but neither really does macroeconomics and neither seems to have a really good grasp of the subject. So I am left to wonder does Soros misunderstand Obama’s views or is Obama, as a status quo corporatist, the man that Soros supports? As for his support for open societies, that’s nice. But as I pointed out above, he is not funding very effectively open society in our country.
I don’t mean to beat up on Soros at least exclusively but then I don’t mean to avoid doing so either. He is a financial pirate and yes, he has done some good things. But he is largely irrelevant (by his choice) to the blogosphere.
Hugh, I agree with much of what you say, but have two comments.
First, Soros’s support of Democracy and Open Society, while not directly impinging on his financial interests actually tends to bring about political regimes in various countries that do regulate unrestrained markets. Soros has also advocated international regulation of hedge funds, CDSs, CDOs and currency trading. Such regulations could well affect his interests negatively, but still he clearly prioritizes Democracy and Open Society above his own narrow interests
Second, while Soros was very favorable to Obama during the campaign and at the beginning of the Administration, but I suspect he’s not very happy with Obama now. One reason is his constant advocacy of regulations on the financial system that Obama is not implementing. The other is that Obama doesn’t seem to be heeding Soros’s advice about the importance of handling the toxic assets problem and the problem of continued foreclosures. George thinks that these problems were instrumental in causing the collapse, and lately he, along with Roubini and other critics of Administration economic policy has been talking about the likelihood of another collapse.
You said:
I think this is a very good proposal. I don’t know if Soros would support under current conditions, but I think if a request for support were framed in open society terms, it would have a chance of winning his favor. Another way of structuring it might be in terms of ameliorating the effects of reflexivity on public policy.
If you build it, they will come. Keep stimulating the debate.
I know George slightly and have been very impressed with both his writings and his good work in support of Open Society and Democracy. But I don’t really know enough about him to answer your question with any kind of confidence.
My gut, based on little personal observation about him and some pretty good second hand knowledge is that he would not be pleased by how HCAN has performed. Everyone makes mistakes, and this isn’t George’s first, nor will it be his last. But I do think that it was a mistake and not part of some elaborate plan of his to de-rail SP or Medicare for All.
interesting.
I’m not widely known for nuance or optimism, but I maintain a squib of hope that Soros is far, far from a typical billionaire.
so, Hugh #132, you are right that those in his milieu would not really countenance funding efforts that are likely to directly undermine themselves, Soros may be after the challenging sweetspot where doing well and doing good coincide.
and, as I mentioned, what of the fact that many businesses would be in a better competitive position if they did not have to the insurance lampreys on them? If Soros has ownership positions in some of those corps, he can sell, he’s a trader.
Soros is certainly not a typical billionaire, if only because he goes to universities to lecture to relatively small groups on reflexivity, just for the fun and the philosophy of it. Also, right now he may not even be doing any trading, or closely watching his investments. I seem to recall that this year he was going to turn things over once again to other people and work on his writing, speaking, and charitable concerns.
hmmm. Some successful traders seem to have a real, genuine, questing general intelligence, and this may have lead them into trading as a means to other ends, having the financial freedom to follow other pursuits, advance other causes. these may be <1%, who knows, and few of those ever get as big as Soros.
rank, outright cheats and frauds and inside dealers like at Goldman Sachs, ironically, give the whole field a bad name, because in a sense there is an authentic meritocracy in there somewhere – i.e. who cares what you look like, smell like, or whether you sleep in the night or the day, or anything else, as long as you make the money, year after year.
total tangent. anyway, I think I like Soros, too. the Open Society Institute seems a great project.
It’s done a lot of good work all over the World and has helped out particularly in Eastern Europe and Southern Africa. Another trader who made enough that he could concentrate on writing is Nassim Nicholas Taleb, known best as the author of The Black Swan. I have a number of pieces on that here.
Thanks, sporkovat.
Yes, Arthur is amazing. The real deal.
letsgetitdone,
Do you have any insight into how the wafty “public option” became the One and Only Official Health-care Approach for the entire progressive blogosphere and the big activist groups like MoveOn?
How does something — especially for a policy so fundamentally mushy — get decided with such rapidity, unanimity, and unyielding certainty, where no probing questions or criticism dare be entertained?
I get that Hacker wrote a highly praised paper and that people were worried that single payer was too ambitious.
But this thing seemed to happen more abruptly and decisively than when the Colts hightailed it out of Baltimore, and it involved a heck of a lot more presumably independent parties.
It’s kinda weird when you think about it. But nothing the old “move along folks, nothing to see here” won’t cure, though. :v)
vastleft, I don’t know much about the internals of how this happened, but I’m sure it’s connected to the rise of Obama and his co-optation by the Clinton forces. Some of the Clintonites hedged their bets by going over to Obama early on. Rahm’s brother, John Podesta and others, As Obama began to look like a good bet these folks got him mixed up with many of the same interests that were both close to the Clintons and key supporters of organized progressivism. Then social networking allowed it all to come together and everyone loved Obama so much that they just fell in line with what he wanted.
selise has been researching this for awhile and I suspect that when she returns to this thread she’ll be able to give us a much better account of what happened. For the future, it seems clear to me that the progressive base has to build organizations with structures that will ensure their accountability to the membership and prevent co-optation by outside forces. The network of organizations we have now was just sucked up by the Obama movement and later by the Obama White House. We can’t let that happen again.
FWIW, selise is no fan of my efforts to link the health “reform” groupthink to the primaries groupthink.
I’m not so sure that Obama was great one day and corrupted by Clintonistas the next. Who knows, maybe there’s some truth to it. But it’s far afield from my point, either way.
My concern, which Boehlert demonstrates the basis for terrifically in his book, is that honest debate was practically outlawed on the blogs… just like it is now with questions or criticisms about “public option.” It’s not healthy for promoting a real progressive agenda (or for anything else but authoritarian power playing), and it’s a tragic squander of this new medium.
A point I’ve raised a time or three is that Boehlert was 20/20 about the costs of not learning from the blogosphere’s failings:
Well, now we know what those circumstances are….
We do know what they are. The good thing about the blogosphere is that we can reinvent it.
I’m less optimistic. Once you’re a made man/woman in this culture, you tend to stay one.
The savvy first movers have clout, and it’s demonstrably more important to them to keep it than any policy initiatives are.
Anyway, it’s not like people’s lives are at stake with this health-care stuff….
I should have clicked “show text.” I took it that you were replying to my linking of the primaries with the health “reform” debacle.
I’m having a little trouble with this theory, since Netroots has never been all that friendly to the Clintons, and certainly not for many years.
My understanding (thanks to sources who must remain anonymous) is that blogosphere opinion leaders have become very close to administration staffers, just as reporters’ face time with Scooter Libby at daycare pickups and such put him above the law in their eyes. If the administration can charm just a small number of key players, their agendas become written in granite across the top echelon of the blogs. “Public option” was what they wanted to stand as the far-left of the discussion, and so it was done. Sorry I can’t divulge my sources, and I accept that this may and probably should be held as mere speculation without outed sources, but the shoe certainly fits.
I think there is a lot of truth in that. There was a recent invite of economic bloggers to the Treasury for a sitdown. Several of them, like Yves Smith, described the session and their reaction to it. They named the bloggers attending but not whom they met with.
It also fits with the elite approach of the Obama Administration. Their actual outreach to the netroots has been pathetic. I would even say they are hostile to us. But blog leaders are an elite they can relate to, elite to elite.
That’s the pathetic record of this Administration: elite to elite.
I’m glad to hear this alternative view. But if selise is right, a lot of this co-optation occurred before the Administration took office, so it wasn’t just cozying up to the White House. What kind of relationship did netroots people have Obama web-based social networking efforts?
Exactly, all the major players were on board when this began in March. Even most of the strategy had been worked out at that point. This was not thrown together at the last minute. It had to be months in preparation, certainly from the election onward, perhaps even earlier some initial discussions when he was the presumptive nominee.
There are really two parts to this:
1. Who Obama is and what does he want? Was he great one day and corrupted the next? I have no way of knowing. As far as I can tell, he’s always been a glib opportunist with no fixed policy objectives.
2. How did Netroots come to embrace Obama and facilitate his bidding (or mildly pushing him in ways that weren’t very threatening to him)? The how isn’t exactly clear, but the when is: when Edwards dropped out of the race, just before Super Tuesday. Very, very quickly it was decided the kid gloves would greet Obama and boxing gloves — or bare knuckles — were Hillary’s due. Even if the bloggers weren’t actively pushing Obama or bashing Hillary, they did almost zilch about a comments culture that aggressively leaned that way.
Given the timing, it’s hard for me to assume that a longstanding collusion between Obama, Clintonistas, and netroots was what it was all about.
It’s pretty late EST, so I won’t write a proper essay here speculating on it. I’ll just repeat my understanding of the dynamics — a small number of ultrabig-wheel bloggers fix on an agenda, and it quickly becomes law.
And I’ll add…
When the calculus changed because Edwards — who represented an appealing mix of progressive rhetoric and national stature — was out, and some decision (the big bloggers seemed to all believe) had to be made right quick.
Boehlert and Ian Welsh see pressure from young Obama enthusiasts forcing the bloggers’ hands. To do anything but grease the skids for Obama would cost them readers and stature. In some cases, Boehlert informs us — and this is dreadful — leading bloggers actually preferred Hillary but bit their tongues about it. So much for the brave, honest new media!
Finally, a mix of opportunism, cliquishness, and Bush-related PTSD has fueled much of the netroots bad behavior. A factor that shouldn’t be ignored is that many netroots leaders aren’t longtime liberals. Yet the behavior has been pretty consistent among all, even lifetime lefties, so I don’t want to exaggerate that as a factor (but a few rotten apples can wield a lot of influence). Consensus is created with zero transparency, and it is enforced religiously. Usually with a happy face and click-here-for-feel-good-donation buttons, but absolutely brutal if you serve up an inconveniently legitimate question or criticism. In my case, it’s included personal threats to my reputation and livelihood. Lovely, isn’t it?
I was from the ‘pox on all their houses’ school, but I remember thinking Edwards had something more below the waterline, in terms of having real political values.
but, it turns out his candidacy was booby trapped all along, with the mistress scandal known by oppo researchers, and had he somehow gotten the nomination, Rove or somebody would have gleefully pushed the button on him.
and you know Siber’s caustic take on the likelihood of the (D)’s ever nominating a real reformer.
vastleft, this is a fine analysis addressing hoe the consensus came about. I’ll comment on the quotes below:
Maybe not so much with the netroots, but some Clintonistas committed to Obama pretty early. As I mentioned earlier, Podesta, and Rahm’s brother were key. Certainly Rahm’s brother was a surrogate for Rahm, who couldn’t do it himself. Obama got introduced to Bob Rubin and got a Wall Street imprimatur as safe. Relationships were forged that allowed Obama to tap the Clinton network quickly when the time came.
I agree with this analysis of when the netroots probably came aboard. I’m very familiar with processes that create pretty monolithic communities. We see them in literature in such works as Golding’s Lord of the Flies. We see them frequently on the net itself, Clay Shirky talked about them in this very well-known piece. We’ve seen them a lot in Knowledge Management circles where communities of practice are vulnerable to the development of tyranny as a routine matter. About 6 years ago I wrote a series of 10 blog posts including a case study of an online community beginning here, about this. In this study hectoring and ridicule were important elements in attempting to silence dissent. Eventually, actual censoring was used. Over time, after the series was written the community matured, learned to tolerate its conflcts, and perhaps even enjot dissent. Today it’s a very open community.
Thanks, I’ll check out those links.
The only thing I’m chafing at here is the implication Obama was a good liberal until he was somehow tainted by Clintonistas. I get that from your earlier comment that refered to “his co-optation by the Clinton forces.”
Do we have some basis for believing this happened, that he wasn’t always a friendly face for machine politics, just like his sometime hero Ronald Reagan?
FWIW, here was my take on Obama’s and HRC’s respective forms of triangulation, written just before Edwards pulled out, and before many things about the Democratic Party and the left-blogosphere began coming ever-clearer to me.
Also, on the topic of groups-gone-bad, here’s a post I wrote about Irving Janis’s book, “Groupthink.” I have a Part II drafted, but it’s on ice for the time-being.
I think that at the time we knew the choice was between Clinton and Obama. We knew what we were getting with Clinton and we didn’t want it. We knew that Obama wasn’t progressive but we thought he was more of a mainline Democrat who would at least be open, given his rhetoric, to some progressive ideas. I broke with Obama over the FISA Amendments Act in July 2008. For me, it was the last straw in a process of disillusionment with Obama. But I have to say, even then I didn’t realize that far from being mostly a mainline Democrat with a few progressive flourishes, he was a solid Blue Dog and corporatist DLCer. It is this taken with the progressive language that brings into question his honesty and integrity. I loathe Chuck Schumer but he is a mainline Democrat, a corporatist, with a few progressive quirks. He at least falls within a political spectrum that we all know. But Obama talks like a progressive and acts like a conservative and does so consistently. You just can’t square that combination.
I’m really not trying to make this about how one centrist would have been better than the other.
The relevant point (sorry, selise) is that bullying groupthink and several other forms of abuse and STFU reared their heads in the blogosphere during the primaries, and we’re experiencing a rerun of this as the insider conventional wisdom is again held beyond question, and anyone who dares challenge it is treated like a heretic.
My point is that this isn’t unique to health-care. There is a tribal sickness of bad and anti-transparent process that must be understood and changed, if a real and useful progressive movement is to take hold.
I’ve often thought that getting out from behind pseudonyms in online political advocacy should be considered proper etiquette. I requested that Jane change my name from ImperialFlow to my real name, for precisely that reason.
It helps to keep me from saying things I can’t support or explain, and provides a vector of accountability.
completely disagree. 1) people have a right to their privacy and having to use real names would make it impossible for many to participate, 2) it’s an equalizing force because when readers decide whether or not to take what i write seriously, they can’t use social signifiers (education, wealth, etc), people have to decide if i make sense, have evidence to back up my claims, etc.
i’ve used the same name online for about 8 years now — so my reputation, for good or for ill, is what it is regardless of what i call myself. i have a history, and that i hope is more important than my name.
I can certainly understand that perspective.
I guess I figure, if I can’t say something publicly that I don’t want my name attached to, then I personally shouldn’t be saying it.
you mean like when i was organizing against the war in afghanistan while i worked for an anti-muslim boss who actually said he wanted to see a lot of afghanis dead because he was angry and wanted revenge?
Yeah. I can see how that’d be tense. I probably have too much faith in peoples’ capacity to separate their requirement to cooperate for work from their other interpersonal relationships.
I’ve also been self-employed for the last 4+ years, and even prior I wasn’t oft inundated with the politics of co-workers; the biggest fights were always revolving around why I insisted on using a Mac for everything except running VisualStudio. As such my perspective is sheltered.
Though I can say definitively that I have been specifically denied at least two contracts that I know of that were do to my political leanings, or lack there of. One Big-R and one Big-D organization both opted out of having my company perform a CRM integration to help with their marketing and campaigning efforts because I wouldn’t essentially show a sense of fealty to their particular political causes. It was a little weird, and in both cases when the questions started coming I was completely shocked. Needless to say I had no idea what my position on abortion had to do with competently moving data into their new CRM back-office platforms.
I think you win some and lose some over that. There are organizations working out there that share your political views and they may prefer hiring you to others who don’t.
You should have asked him to find Saudi Arabia, Kuala Lumpur, Hamburg, and San Diego on a map of Afghanistan. ;-)
lol! didn’t matter that wasn’t who he wanted to kill.
did have a similar discussion with someone where i asked how many of 911 hijackers were afghani. response was, “i don’t know the exact number!” when i said that i did and the number was zero, the next response was yelled at me, “i don’t want to talk about it!”
oh, and both my boss and the other person were hard core “liberal” dems.
OT, but just something to keep in mind. google is effectively global and forever.
That’s very good perspective on it, selise.
Nathan, if that is your real name (sorry, Dr. Strangelove reference), I refer you the collected discussions between Open Left bloggers (such as Paul Rosenberg, Chris Bowers, and John Emerson) and one “Vastleft.”
I double-dog dare you to show me how blogging under their real names has given them the high-ground on “saying things [they can] support or explain, and [adhering to] a vector of accountability.”
Does Jane Hamsher out-support, out-explain, and out-accountability me here? How about Gwen Ifill here?
In fact, your introducing this left-field concern seems a rather poor example of bringing in supported, explained issues. It serves to delegitimize me without providing any support or explanation about why I’m particularly — or at all — inclined to bend or dodge the truth.
I don’t think you are so inclined. I just have a hard time understanding why a person would need that kind of anonymity.
It’s not really a concern I have, just sort of an extension of the idea that, “We all do and say things we otherwise wouldn’t if we had to actually discuss things in person.” Pseudonyms seem like a step away from “in person.” If I said something, and you know I said it, and you can point to it, then I have to take ownership of it. I’m not saying you’re using it as a vail to be disingenuous, nor that a person who does use their real name is necessarily more honest and forthcoming.
For instance, since Jason uses his real name I can verify that he works for HCAN (assuming he didn’t ever bother to disclose that otherwise).
No offense was intended by my remark.
Thanks, Nathan.
Since I have received personal threats, either leaked or sent (that point was left a little ambiguous), from the insider blogger clique, I’m both glad I blog anonymously and sometimes wishing I weren’t open about my identity with many members of that clique.
For speaking inconvenient truths, I have received rather remarkable abuse. I can well understand why some choose to be anonymous. (No doubt it sounds self-serving to declare that what I’m writing is “the truth,” but when people resort to every form of intimidation and marginalization and dodge the actual debate at every turn, it’s a pretty good sign they don’t have much of a case).
I appreciate that a few folks in that contingent have managed to remain friendly with me, but the more I challenge the culture of handed-down rallying points and STFU, the more who fall away. And those who do remain standing rarely if ever publicly criticize the cruel and benighted system they belong to, which has become a major impediment to real progressive reform.
BTW, if you’re a true advocate for transparency, why not start bugging members of Townhouse and JournoList to open their archives?
What do you have to lose?
Hi Nathan, I’s oK if you can do that and not suffer repercussions, but some folks here need the pseudonyms to write safely. When I began blogging here, I adopted the handle letsgetitdone, because I viewed as reflecting my orientation. But I’ve never hidden my entity. On the contrary I’ve revealed it in my profile which you will be taken to if you click on the author link above.
I know, I’ve read it.
It’s one of the things that lead me to make the statement that I often feel like I’m among the youngest and least educated regulars around here. :-)
Go Gonzaga, G-O-N-Z-A-G-A!
You’re doing very well anyway, Nathan.
I’ve been toying with the idea of going for a graduate degree in economics, because it’s a good fit for my B.S. in Computer Science (lots of math and systems analysis), and because I find it fascinating.
Two problems; nobody listens to economists that say anything other than parroting conventional pieties anyway, and since the fall of Bear Stearns I’ve been hammering on as many fundamental and graduate-level books on the subject without the need for a more formal structure, so it’s hard to see the point unless I was going the PhD route, and just needed the time for research.
Maybe when I turn 30 next month it will all crystalize and make sense. ;-)
dude! with a bs in comp sci, have you thought about going to australia to study with steve keen? i mean, if you decide to go the phd route (ps i was in my thirties when i went back to school). regardless, i highly recommend his book, debunking economics, and i’m not even finished yet!
Just added this book to my list of things to pick up from Powell’s Books when I walk down there later this afternoon.
Thanks :-)
The Ph.D. is for teaching and for learning how to really do serious research. But, I think in that respect the system of graduate education in this country may have deteriorated over the last thirty years. I’m not sure this has happened in Canada though. There they still may make people work through it in the old, meaningful, way.
I know they do that in Australia and Europe because I’ve been close to two Ph.D. efforts in those places over the past three years, and I know they were done in the right way. One was in Knowledge Management at The University of Technology in Sydney, and the other was at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands in Cognitive Science and Knowledge Management.
amen on that vastleft.
one of the reasons i don’t think the primaries are similar to what we are seeing now is that (and please do correct me if i have this wrong) is that the bullying and group think was a bottom’s up process during the primaries and on healthcare it’s most definitely a top down process. imo, top down is much, much more destructive for democratic processes, transparency, etc.
The impetus for the primaries’ blogosphere groupthink did — if Messrs Boehlert and Welsh are correct — come from outside, from the rabid enthusiasm of the Obama faithful.
But once triggered, the tribal elders, through commission and omission, turned their clubhouses into places where truthiness and the other foibles reigned supreme.
Since they were the established opinion leaders, ethicists, and truthtellers, when they ratified the mania (even if positioning themselves as somewhat less giddy than their more over-the-top commenters), there was just going to be no legitimate debate, and no place for heretics (i.e., people who preferred the other centrist or who doubted the fabulous claims for the cool one) to go.
And thus it is when the likes of you or me attempt to advocate for the policy the likes of Chris and Paul claim to support. Unwelcome, marginalized, reviled. Relentless delegitimization of legitimate concerns.
No kind of way to build a progressive present or future.
Top-down and bottom-up bullying are equally damaging to real democracy, especially because bottom-up bullying is usually a tool used by a group’s leaders.
that’s an excellent point i had not considered. thanks.
Again, vastleft. I entirely agree with this perspective and mention again the references about communitarianism I offered earlier.
I agree. I became dis-illusioned when he folded so easily on the stimulus bill, began to make it clear that he supported the State Secrets doctrine, and also provided weak leadership on hcr early on.
vastleft, thanks for the links. I’ll be happy to read them. I didn’t intend to suggest that Obama was a friendly progressive and then was corrupted by the Clintonistas, but just that the Clinton forces were easily able to get many of their people into his administration and ti get their perspectives adopted. Perhaps that co-optation was as easy as it was because Obama is not progressive and was well-disposed to it. In any event, I never thought that Obama was as progressive as Edwards for example, and think that Obama’s popularity can be traced to three factors: 1) Edwards dropped out; 2) Hillary was quite unpopular with them, and 3) Obama, seemed more opposed to the Iraq War than Hillary.
I’m still not getting where “co-optation” comes in.
How do you “co-opt” a guy who’s never seen an energy lobby he doesn’t love?
Good point!
I do not see many others bringing this up but I do in these discussions. In terms of when healthcare will come back up again as an issue, I think people do not understand how bad the economy is going to get in 2011. As letsgetitdone says, this is a prediction. It could be wrong but the fundamentals don’t lie and they are deteriorating. This will likely recast most of the discussions that we currently are having. I think the most likely scenario for getting universal healthcare by 2013 will be in an effort to keep us, the masses, quiet. Many of the reforms that FDR undertook were to head revolution off, not because of liberal ideology. This is often forgotten.
Roosevelt was a complex man of many conflicting motives. But his spirit was far more liberal than we see in any of our major politicians today. He was a true pragmatist, not just someone who mouthed platitudes like “the perfect is the enemy of the good.”
There were a good number of people in 1933 actually calling for revolution. What you got now?
Very interesting read. I can’t even suggest that you are altogether wrong.
One problem, however, is that the President decided the place and time of this whole affair. The President. Not the legislature, not health care reform activists. The President, when asked “Why not now?” in any statement from any press quarter, would have been given a pass for telling the nation that our financial woes were too great in his first year to tackle something so overwhelming as health care reform. I would not suggest that that is correct – in fact, it is probably badly wrong – but it would have prevented what we have in front of us today, and I would have been grateful.
Unless you believe that the game was played and won in collaboration with enormously moneyed entities who stood to profit handsomely from disastrous public policy before Obama ever launched the HC campaign (not a completely unreasonable suggestion), those who advocate for any kind of reform, however good or bad, were at the mercy of the administration’s calendar.
I like the scientific approach to this piece, and it seems well-reasoned and professionally presented. But it does not answer the ground-truth implications of a Democratic administration embarking on a generational battle with forces it is loathe to do battle with, who were quite possibly their backroom allies.
•) Obama will not, as promised, ferret out criminals who sanctioned and performed atrocities in the name of national security.
•) Obama will not use the force of his office to put a body on his own caucus to steamroll Republicans who have obstructed his judicial nominations, senior and essential offices in the Department of Justice, or even his cabinet nominations.
•) Obama will barely respond to inquiries about the chances of Republicans allowing him a smooth process of any kind, on any front, and when he has, he has graced the obstructionists and their tactics as having been done mostly in good faith, out of a real patriotic sense, from their hearts.
There is a long list of things this President has not done, apparently will not do, and perhaps had no intention of ever doing. And one of those items may well be a thoughtful resolution to the health care crisis.
The legislature: do the House of Representatives and the Senate look different somehow?
Who actually thought that 60 votes was actually 60 votes, given the last 30+ years of Senate Democrats? The tattered legacy of Tom Daschle’s pitiful weakness not only lives, but it breeds and festers.
Who imagined that the Speaker of the House – the same Speaker who turned a blind eye to such staggering criminality that constitutional scholars weep – would be a stalwart host for real reform measures, that she wouldn’t trade in her conscience for the chance to keep her gavel, that she could or would hold together a caucus in which Democrats-In-Name-Only held all the cards – did we think Nancy Pelosi could not count?
Despite the “we should have moved heaven and earth to…” proclamations in these pages these last few months, there is the distinct possibility that this was decided long ago, beyond public discourse.
Setting aside for a moment the arguments about whether the current legislative track should be scuttled, whether that is even possible, how long we will have to wait for another shot at genuine reform, the money, the influence, the re-purposed climate of fear employed by reform opponents: If you do not control the when, you are at grotesque disadvantage. Short of impeachment, no amount of vigor can change that.
The only thing we have is what was said and affirmed. And it is not unlikely that failure to keep his word will be Obama’s undoing.
I am for Single-Payer, and I can’t think of anything the President could have done in his few months in office (short of insisting on something that resembled an effective stimulus bill) that would have been of greater benefit to the country as a whole and for the years to come, than to support with every last bit of energy, conscientious health care reform, except one – not to have put it on the table at all. But once he did, for whatever reason, we were on that timetable.
Excellent comment, well worth thinking about. Thanks.
http://publicoptionplease.com/campaign-art-contest/
it seems all non-nauseating designs were kept ‘off the table’ and so you must not let the dreadful be the enemy of the awful.
I would vote for Steve Alfaro’s effort, because it just might have a MOVE or a gonzo fist in amongst all the zombie hands. Maybe even this one …. not bleddy likely.
Ummm . . . Yeah. Demand the Max. Settle for Close. Never Cower.
Avoids traps.
Let’s I responded to your comment at the end of the Conyer’s Unleashed thread.
Thanks. I’ll look.
Thanks again GDC707. I left you a comment in reply.
Hi, Joe
Jane Hamsher really produced a cliffhanger in one of her latest post “The Future of the Public Option”. It has all the suspense of the movie “High Noon”. It still quite in town before the shootout begins. Was that a curtain moving? Yes it was, it’s the “We-movement from FDL”. On behalf of the other members, their head leader Jane Hamsher said:
Joe, please enlighten me. I visit FDL to read your beautiful posts (or diaries as they named over here) and I chip in a comment once and awhile to give my voice to the human rights of American people, advocating for Medicare for All. I thought FDL was only a facilitator of free speech and a platform for critical discussions. “What is FDL?” What is all this “we”-stuff, we did this, and we do that? “Who’s we on FDL”. Where am I? Or let me put in another way: if nobody should post or comment here, is there still a we-movement left, which has a vision or a strategy, still speaking and acting ? Am I part of a larger community when I come over here, with a boss who seems to kick your ass if you don’t do what she wants, or lectures you if you don’t think the way she does? And I have some sad news for you, as the boss said “that killing the bill is not a realistic assessment of the situation at hand”.
You better don’t rock the boat too much, if you want to keep on posting here. It seems Jason Rosenbaum has already been fired, as I looked him up once again under the menu “About us” and he’s gone, but guess what … the others are gone too, except for Jane Hamsher (the “I” who needs the “We” to be).
Cool, because if there are two things we hate, it’s transparency and citizen involvement!
oh dear, you just made me spit my lavender chamomile tea all over my keyboard.
made me laugh too.
Seems that way, vastleft
Hi Henk, I don’t think Jason’s gone. He’s still posting and his web site is still listed as seminal at Firedog Lake at present. See this link:
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/author/jasonrosenbaum
I think FDL is a combination of a community blog and a political action group. Jane is the owner of the web site, and also the leader of its political activities. Jane opens up the web site to community members who want to post through its seminal segment. Jason is the supervisor of that segment. People are free to post their own views on this segment even if they don’t agree with Jane.
I don’t see Jane kicking the ass of any members, though others here may know more about that than I. I do see her “lecturing” other members when there views are different from her own, but I view this as just Jane expressing her strongly felt opinions, and I welcome that expression myself, as I welcome the opinion of other members I come into contact with.
Of course, the formal structure of FDL is authoritarian in character as are most businesses in the United States and most web sites that are effectively controlled by a web site Administrator who owns the url. So, yes, Jane can throw anyone out, and one day she may well throw me out. However, if that happens, I will certainly just go blog somewhere else. So, it’s niot a big issue with me as long as my voice can be heard in the progressive blogosphere.
Hope I’ve answered your questions, and I look forward to your next comment.
Thanks Joe, I knew that Jason wasn’t gone. Just a little joke. If you want to know who “we are”, one goes to “about us”, the stuffiest part of a website. I just noticed this page had been changed in the past few days. I do think however that when Jason writes a comment, that he should say, “this is Jason from FDL”, “this is Jason from HCAN”; “this is Jason as a private person and citizen”. He has to use his real name (which he seems to do), and has to make it crystal clear what hat he wears. Are you really sure you’re not part of a HCAN-FDL action group? :). They never dare to throw you out, which in your case, would mean, that decency, openness and fairness will be thrown out of FDL altogether.
If Jason identified his role with each thing he wrote, would we believe his self-identification? Or would we always assume that he was writing in his HCAN role so long as the views he was expressing were pro-PO?
Thanks I’ll take this as a compliment, however, why assume that anyone wants to throw me out? This is after all a blog. And everyone here benefits if my diaries become popular, since that enables people to also encounter diaries that disagree with mine.
I don’t frequent FDL these days, but it’s a positive sign if they don’t bully you out and that commenters here seem inclined toward a substantive discussion.
Actually, for all my disappointment with certain Open Left bloggers, their commenters are generally pretty good, too.
Green shoots, as it were.
Hopefully it reflects the authentic underlying progressive mindsets.
argh!
lets, i beg your indulgence once more. i only have a few minutes and based on vastleft’s and hugh’s conversation, i think there is some big confusion i want to try to clear up quickly — or at least add my two cents before commenting at more length when time permits.
imo it is a big mistake to think our healthcare reform problems with the public option / private choice nonsense is some how the result of the presidential primaries or obama, or the clintonistas or similar. the dem party elite people who sold this plan to progressives first sold it to three of the presidential candidates: edwards, clinton and obama.
here is Roger Hickey (Co-Director of the Campaign for America’s Future) in july 2008 announcing the launch of hcan:
two years prior to the summer of 2008 is the summer of 2006.
here’s a bit more for anyone who wants to put our current dilemma into some historical context:
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=08&year=2009&base_name=the_history_of_the_public_opti
selise,
I’m totally, totally, totally not blaming the health-care clusterf**ck on the primaries.
I’m pointing out that the same mechanisms of cliquish, insider decision-making and bullying groupthink are at play.
The powers that be made it culturally incorrect to learn anything from the way the primaries went down, especially in the blogosphere, and those powers are doing it again on health-care. If we refuse to recognize the patterns, we’ll forever be looking at trees instead of forests, and we’ll miss what’s really going on.
ok, i don’t want to say you don’t have good points (insiderism, transparency, bullying) because you do. the problem i have with talking about the primaries is that i don’t want to refight them. i got called misogynist by one of your co bloggers (paul) for questioning his pro clinton analysis when he was guest posting here. i got called a concern troll by a long time commenter here for deconstructing (in a not particularly favorable way) a speech by obama. i might be interested in talking about the primaries with anyone who doesn’t want to refight them but the only people i know who want to talk about them also want to refight them. i didn’t like the way i was treated by either the pro-clinton or pro-obama factions and from my perspective it was pretty bad on both sides (i can see how it might not look that way to someone who had a dog in that race, so i’m not trying to invalidate your experience — just saying it wasn’t mine).
Having a dog in that race didn’t enter into it. I call bullshit where I see it, as I did even when HRC was literally my least favorite candidate in that hunt.
I called bullshit on stupid and unfair attacks on Obama, McCain, and Palin.
And, hey, I’ve had significant run-ins with Clinton supporters (Paul among them), but it would be a gross equivalation to suggest that the dynamics that Obama-skeptics/Hillary supporters faced were generally faced by Obama supporters/Hillary-skeptics (and I’m being generous to call the latter “skeptics,” given the limitless freefloating hatred that seemed to pour on her from nearly every corner).
On how many major blogs would you be absolutely blown off if you dared criticize The One or dared defend or promote the wannabe assassin who dared mention the month of June?
Digby became “chickenshit” about defending HRC against the vile, widespread, and utterly deranged RFK-gate attack. How many top bloggers were afraid to stick up for the Lightworker? I’ll tell you how many: zero.
So long as we allow the topic of the primaries to be taboo, no lessons will be learned. Not learning those lessons is costing us real health-care reform. It will continue to cost us as the blogosphere and other progressive infrastructure becomes — if it hasn’t yet — no more useful than a rotisserie baseball league.
vastleft, why is the topic of the primaries taboo?
I’ll defer to Eric Boehlert again, who says it more politely than I would:
fair enough, i’m not trying to make any claims about which side was worse (i don’t even have an opinion) — only that i hated both. but there are lots of other similar issues that could serve as examples, no? at least to start with? examples that come to mind are the whole townhouse list and similar, issues of voter fraud (remember the mass bannings at dailykos?) or how people are treated who question the veracity of the official 911 story (slurs like “truthers” by people who haven’t even studied the issue or the evidence?). a recent one is the interblog rivalries — i’ve seen claims made about dailykos for example by people i’m pretty sure haven’t spent much if any time reading it to figure out the history or even the various sub-cultures etc. i’m sure there are many more, maybe even some you find interesting? the primaries were not, by far, the first examples of bullying, insiderism, tribalism etc on the blogs.
but right now and for the foreseeable future i’m not going there re the primaries with you (other examples of tribalism etc are most welcome — i’m actually quite interested in progressive institution building, etc and have done quite a bit of thinking about it re the political blogosphere). but i don’t like how i’ve seen you (elsewhere) throwing around personal insults and making assumptions without checking them out first. if you really want to have that discussion with me, you can’t keep doing that. i took enough grief during the primaries even though i tried to avoid it and i have no desire for any more. zero tolerance.
For example?
i shouldn’t have made the claim without links, that was my bad. so here are a couple of the most recent examples. after this, though, i’m out.
1.
2.
both from this thread.
and hijacking digby’s fundrasing thread for lambert? i know you didn’t check with lambert about how he felt about the $$$ that might have cost him.
Thanks for the correction and the links, selise. I’ll look forward to your further comments.
thanks lets. it’s my fault for not talking more about the history has i understand it and learn more about it. but i’m also fearful of starting unnecessary flame wars. it’s a dilemma for me.
Don’t let fear of the flame wars stop you from finding your voice. Some of us will be there too to back you up.
ah, but flame wars can serve as a diversion from important stuff. it’s not, i hope, so much that i’m scared of pissing people off — it’s that i don’t want to piss people off unproductively (if that makes any sense).
although, i really appreciate the offer and may ask to take you up on it one day.
I’ve had a lot of experience with flame wars in Knowledge Management list servs. They’re not productive, but sometimes it’s necessary to get through them. I can do that.
that’s great! no, that’s awesome! can you teach me how someday? because i can’t do it. i eventually get pissed off and decide it’s not worth my time.
in fact, it was in the ’80s that i adopted the affectation of not using the shift key — it was meant as a way to try to talk “softly” in the hopes that i would piss off fewer people. i keep it now, only because i’m lazy.
Sure I’ll try to teach you, but the best way to learn is to see me do it.
thanks, that would be great. i’m afraid i don’t have the temperment for it, but at some future point maybe there will be a chance for me to watch you in real time or for you to point me to an example thread.
I think it is perfectly legitimate for an organization like HCAN to try to sell its case to the Democratic candidates, even if the Hacker plan was not my first choice. But Obama’s position on healthcare from no mandates to making them an integral part of his plan took place some time after he was the presumptive nominee or the President-elect. It looks like this is when the deals were made and organizations like HCAN their support already garnered were had. Because by the March 2009 conference that opened the healthcare debate, everything seemed already in place. The Obama plan at this point was individual mandates, cuts to Medicare, deals with the stakeholders, and a backing away from a public option.
hcan didn’t sell the case to the candidates — they didn’t even exist until july 2008. that started at least 2 years before prior. hcan was about selling it to the public.
also, question: i don’t know what you are referring to re march 2009 conference. obama’s healthcare “debate” began before the inauguration.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-at-the-Opening-of-the-White-House-Forum-on-Health-Reform/
Obama had a one day forum on healthcare to kick off the debate on March 5, 2009.
Nathan, where did that come from?
i remember the march forum, but that was not the beginning of the “debate” — that started with the transition team before even the inauguration. the first thing i remember were the healthcare community discussions in december (there could have been something before this, i’m just going by memory now).
http://change.gov/page/s/hcdiscussion
http://change.gov/page/-/Health%20Care%20Community%20Discussion%20Participant%20Guide.pdf
http://change.gov/page/-/Health_Care_Community_Discussion_Moderator_Guide.pdf
http://pnhp.org/blog/2008/12/16/speak-up-at-sen-daschles-house-parties/
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/health/23health.html?_r=2&hp
the report was a real hoot (for what it left out):
http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/03/05/report-of-health-care-community-discussions/
Thanks for tracking this and providing these links, selise.
i was thinking further about it, and wonder if maybe the march forum got rebranded a bit after the daschle nomination for hhs crashed and burned (selibus was nominated just a few days prior). i also wonder if baucus was not originally planned to be the administration’s point man? maybe daschle was and baucus was plan B? pure speculation on my part. but obama’s healthcare debate certainly started in december at the latest and march was only the first of several regional forums. it did not even mark the start of increased news coverage.
there’s a lot of stuff i’m not following as i should or wish to, but the healthcare reform issue is one of the very few i’m trying to.
You’re doing a terrific of following it.
I’ve been out for most of the day, and also have to put the finishing touches on a talk I’m giving on reflexivity tomorrow, so I won’t be able to pick up this very good discussion at Hugh’s comment @ 152 until tomorrow late afternoon or evening, unless, perhaps I can get a reply or two in this evening. Anyway, it looks like people are exchanging very good information, and I’m anxious to get back to this as soon as can. In the meantime thanks to everyone for participating. These issues are raising very important, even fundamental issues about how and where we go from here.
Great thread, letsgetitdone!
Thanks for contributing so much to it, vastleft!
good luck with your talk. i bet it is an interesting one!
It was interesting and went very well. I even used some of this post in it. I have some powerpoint slides. My e-mail is eisai@comcast.net. if you’re interested in getting them in .pdf format.
thanks, i will email you (probably tomorrow). may i suggest you ask the mods to either delete your addy or else add in some spam foiling device to protect your email from the spambots?
My addy? My e-mail address? If so, it’s been up there for a long time, and I don’t get more spam than usual.
ok, then you must have a better spam filter than i do. that’s good.
Thanks for the links, selise. I agree that things were going on before March 5 but this is as far as I can tell the official rollout putting healthcare on the schedule. My memory is that the Obama-Orszag-Peterson swipes at Social Security had occurred a few weeks before at the February 23, 2009 fiscal responsibility conference (I googled). So I was surprised that they were doing healthcare (and Medicare) so soon after.
http://firedoglake.com/2009/02/19/orszag-confirms-road-to-fiscal-responsibility-goes-through-social-security-benefit-reduction/
completely agree. one of the really strange things that happened this past year was that requests for more info about this new concept – the po – how it would work, etc were routinely ignored for months (i used to ask “what po?!“). then, at some point, it became wrong to ask and requests for more info were treated as disloyalty or worse. i don’t know how or even if it fits the model letsgetitdone has described, but i’ve considered it a form enforcing the circle of legitimate debate (per jay rosen).
I noticed that too I think the explanation is that people supporting the PO didn’t want to give an answer because it would force them to be completely explicit about what they were for and in doing that they would restrict their freedom of action if they had to back down further. In other words, the progressive organizations and bloggers were acting just like their Congresspeople, not committing to anything so they could retain their freedom of action.
All summer the progressive movement groups were trying to raise money by asking their members for money to support the PO, but they would never tell their members exactly what it was that they were advocating for and would to seek to get legislated. I’m sure the fund-raising efforts were somewhat successful, but I’m also sure they were a relative disappointment because a lot of people may just have concluded that they would not give money for a pig in a poke.
Since no one else would do it, Lambert took a stab at defining what PO is:
What could be simpler and less subject to watering down and gaming than that?
A nice one of Lambert’s. I’ve been crying in the wilderness for the past few months about the disingenuousness of the whole thing also. Some people here did seem offended when I used that word, but that faded away pretty soon. Then I used the word again to describe some of Alan Grayson’s recent antics, and people tried to contend that we had to give Grayson some politician’s latitude and not insist that he tell the truth all the time.
letsgetitdone, on your first point (my bolds):
this is one of the most confusing things for me (in my very big pile of confusion). why was it apparently so important to NOT discuss single payer? even in the context of advocacy for a PO, why not use that as an opportunity to educate the public, while we’re paying attention, to what single payer is (what are the benefits, why it is expected to work, etc) as part of the discussion? it just seems like all upside to me, iff the eventual goal is universal healthcare because it moves the public discussion a little further. for years we’ve had activists going around giving talks to whoever would listen. that’s really hard work — this was a year with a public stage and we decided not to mention single payer? that just doesn’t compute for me.
Well me too. But I think it’s due to what passes for political realism in America these days. People think it’s about them controlling the message. The PO didn’t want SP sharing air time with them and having a competing proposal. They believe that to allow that would be to dilute and weaken the progressive political thrust because it would be split in two directions. I’m afraid that they never considered the possibility of unifying behind SP and just letting a Hacker-type PO emerge from the ensuing knock-down drag-out fight.
I totally read that — “The PO didn’t want SP sharing air time with them” — to mean “SP” in this sense.
If the shoe fits….
I wonder if that’s a compliment? -:) -:) -:)
ah. ok. thanks for that and your 215 also.
message control just strikes me as the opposite of what i want for political conversations. might as well be tv for all the two way conversation it permits.
somehow i see democracy as much messier than that. with lots of multi directional conversations, even ones i don’t want to participate in (hi vastleft! — not trying to be mean here, please accept my apologies if it came off that way).
That’s my idea of democracy, as well, selise.
on your third point:
there are an additional couple of possibilities i can think of (and probably a gazillion i can’t):
first, when the hacker type plan was sold to dem party progressives, i don’t think any single payer policy experts were included to challenge the assertions made about the dem elite position. iow, i think it’s possible that people were bamboozled by party insiders they trusted, but shouldn’t have.
second, according to sara robinson, funding threats made (from her interview on ian masters, sept 22 ):
Thanks for the additional reasons. Of course, these organizations are no longer any good to us. They folded to pressure and so don’t deserve our money, or other support again.
on your fourth point, lesson’s learned. marcia angell gave an excellent talk (introduced by paul krugman who also asked the first question) last year (sept 2008) where she talked some about the issue of lessons learned in her experience during the past couple of decades of the universal healthcare fight. if i get the chance, i’ll do a quick transcript of the relevant bits. in any event, it might be of interest to readers still with the thread to get this far: here’s the mp3, and the announcement.
Thanks selise, you’re a veritable fountain of information.
finally, thanks lets for another great diary. i still think that jay rosen’s ideas about how journalists and now also bloggers (in the church of the savvy) move ideas to and from the circle of deviance is a counter part to the idea of reflexivity in this situation (or perhaps more correctly, one of the mechanisms by which reflexivity has it’s power to transform).
I agree. The church of the savvy can really enrich the account of failure in terms of reflexivity.
What is the nature of your objections to those comments?
(Note: On item #2, I followed up with a (never responded to) comment that indicated I wasn’t sure my initial interpretation was correct. That’s the sort of thing that can happen when people have actual discourse instead of hit-and-run.)
You state that you will walk out of the conversation if I pursue a particular line of inquiry, one which here — where you haven’t (until your “I’m out!” declaration, that is) tuned out such discourse altogether — you say this about: “i don’t want to say you don’t have good points (insiderism, transparency, bullying) because you do.”
In the OL thread you were, in fact, offering me STFU. It’s not an insult for me to claim that. The message, and an amazingly common one it is, is “the primary topic is taboo, and shame on you for channeling the bad feelings it represents.”
You have multiply used the insult “hijacking” (which our mutual friend Paul Rosenberg repurposed in his broadside against the both of us, thank you very much).
Yet it isn’t hijacking at all. I’m weaving in a, IMHO, relevant thread — those “good points,” as you called them.
And damned straight I didn’t check with Lambert about whether I was allowed to tell the truth (constructively, not insultingly as you might have it). Digby felt a fundraising thread — in her main post no less — was a perfectly fine place to claim that Correntians sometimes “eviscerate” her. I attempted to clarify that I had no such agenda and also to enlist her in dealing with the real problems in the blogosphere, as she claimed to think we were a healthy breath of fresh air. Her follow-up comments revealed that she was just throwing a bone to Lambert and company because of loyalties to other Corrente bloggers, and she was in fact not at all happy with what we’d been writing. The blogosphere and its potential value as a place that fills the desperate void for honest media is more important to me than money, whether that money is headed to Lambert or anyone else. I did not, and I did not seek to, insult Digby, and the fundraiser thread was already awash with vitriolic Corrente bashing before I even got there. Oh, and BTW, I have donated a decent amount of money to Lambert and have never sought to receive any compensation myself for the hundreds of posts I wrote at his site.
You allowed your allergy to the primaries theme to rationalize and amplify attacks on me which helped make me unwelcome even on Corrente.
And having painted me here as an insult merchant, you bow out with a harrumph.
It’s your right to make your own interpretations. Well here’s mine:
The blog culture has made certain topics, such as the unpleasantness of 2008 primaries and criticism of the forced march toward public option, into land-mine zones.
Since you didn’t, in your parlance, have a dog in the primary race, you’re content to be as disapproving of and corrosive to those who dare bring up the taboo primary topic as the rest of them.
And thus you’re embarrassed to have the likes of me for an ally. C’est la vie.
Folks, As a latecomer to the progressive blogosphere, why is it taboo? Were people having fights to the death over Barack and Hillary?
it’s not taboo (maybe it is for some, but in my conversations i don’t think that is an issue, at least in that small sample), it more like the reason for avoiding the primary wars at the time they were happening. for months it derailed other conversations, was extremely nasty and i thought it was a big waste of time. for the people i know who attempted to practice avoidance during the primary wars, it was not taboo, just a desire to avoid them. when it became impossible to avoid them, because even conversations about other topics were hijacked, i stopped participating here and elsewhere for weeks at a time and i know i wasn’t the only person who attempted to practice that kind of avoidance.
i’d seriously od’ed on it by jan 2008 and while i get it matters a lot to some people (i think it’s like healthcare, the economy and the wars matter a lot to me) and i have no desire to prevent their conversations, i have seriously limited bandwidth (both energy and time) and i don’t get why my request, instead of respected is instead called a stfu message or enforcing an elite taboo.
Thanks for explaining, selise.
How is “taboo” an inapt word for a topic that is reliably greeted with fury and/or avoidance?
what a load of bullshit.
(aside: i’m pretty sure this is NOT how to avoid a flame war. i also recognize i’m contributing to hijjacking lets’ thread. my ppologies lets, i’ll try not to make a habit of it.)
then you shouldn’t have stated it as fact. (ie “making assumptions without checking them out first”)
except that i didn’t. “insultingly” is your word not mine.
the thread speaks for itself. i had an opinion, but i didn’t join in any attacks — certainly nothing like your comments to me here.
bullshit. i invited the conversation you claim to want to have about insiderism, tribalism and transparency. i even suggested some other topics where they might apply productively. i wish you’d taken me up on that invitation.
i also remember your excellent post for a couple of years ago on the process dodge. would love to have conversations about that kind of thing as well.
…. i don’t know why, but it seems you’d rather try to provoke a fight — one i don’t want to have. maybe that is not your intent, but that is how it feels to me and i’d have a lot more patience and tolerance for attempting to work through it if i hadn’t already od’ed on the primary wars while they were actually happening (my current personal time and energy limitations don’t help either).
i don’t want to fight about the primary wars. if none of the alternative suggestions i offered work for you, then i don’t know what else to do but practice avoidance.
I’ve linked it a few times already here, but I think an excellent primer for it is my interview with Eric Boehlert, so here goes one more time (and for the record for most times blogwhoring a single old post in a single thread):
http://www.correntewire.com/interview_bloggers_bus_author_eric_boehlert
As far as fights to the death (or at least threats thereof), well there’s this (breaking my own record, with a link to the comments thread from above):
http://www.correntewire.com/interview_bloggers_bus_author_eric_boehlert#comment-144863
And this stuff, also on the death theme, was pretty unglued:
http://www.correntewire.com/tags/fucked_in_the_head_watch
Finally, here is Jane Hamsher’s avowal that warning progressives that the candidate they were about to elect wasn’t the progressive they thought he was would have engendered “pointless vitriolic arguments.” That even Jane had to STFU on such an essential topic to progressives is a pretty good measure of how bad it was, though her quotes in Boehlert’s book don’t suggest she was all that aware/concerned about the prevailing vicious groupthink that Obama-skeptics/Hillary supporters faced.
Good times! Believe me there’s more, much much more, if one dares learn from the recent past. And who wants to do that? Almost no one, as George Santayana rolls in his grave and mutters “I told you so!”
Thanks.
It’s funny for a conciliator how fond you seem to be of that phrase. Less swearing at people might actually make for more positive and productive communications, though I could be wrong.
I quickly owned up to possibly (I say “possibly,” since you never responded) misinterpreting something you wrote. One point in one of your comments read to me one way at first, and I responded accordingly. I had even hedged my initial reading with “Evidently,”. It’s curious to me why misinterpreting, then — in the face of new evidence — rethinking a reason for why someone is flaming you is such a damnable sin. Have you never misinterpreted anything in your whole life? In particular when someone decides to start publicly attacking you, it’s humanly possible to get one aspect of their motives wrong, which sometimes is clarified by subsequent information. So sue me, as they say. It would be refreshing to see how you handle it in the unlikely event you get something wrong someday (ideally on nothing as vital as your tactical reasons for flaming me for mentioning the primaries).
“Insulting” is one of your your basic frames for characterizing me, no? “Might” indicates that it’s conceivable that you’d choose to use that frame in this context. It’s just a guess, because you’ve never clarified where I’ve actually been insulting (and — for bonus points — if so, where I’ve done it to someone undeserving).
“The thread speaks for itself,” as do the threads where single-payer advocates like both you and me are trashed and marginalized around the blogosphere. Only, when it comes to dumping on those who criticize the primaries’ dynamics, you happily stand with the heretic-trashers and those who wring their hands over protocols like never challenging A-list bloggers and being obsequious when our betters are doling out largess (even while they call you “eviscerators,” and even they’re nomininally — alas, only nominally — opening a crack in a dangerously closed system).
You’re calling “bullshit” on the topic of your embarrassment about being my potential ally, even as you’re reverting to the abusive behavior I’ve seen from you on other threads: vilifying me, swearing at me, and threatening to walk out because a topic that gives you hives you been raised. What is your point here — I fail to expand on some topics you brought up in this long thread, and therefore you should
startresume cussing at me?I didn’t write the “process dodge” post. Should a correction from you suffice, or should I start shouting “bullshit” and wagging a finger at you for “making assumptions without checking them out first.” You’ll find I’m quite ready to have substantive discussions on most any topic of mutual interest. Try me. Apparently, I missed a cue from you somewhere upthread to talk about something you wanted to bring in. What was it?
Through your words and actions, it’s quite clear that the topic of the primaries is highly troubling to you. You’re not alone in that. And like so many others, you choose to kick up dust and shoot the messenger, which is incredibly easy once a topic has been officially tainted in the public view. “i don’t want to fight the primary wars” and various forms of “i can’t take this” are slick ways of making someone the bad guy for suggesting we learn from the late unpleasantness.
You continue to be mystified about why you’ve received the treatment you have at Open Left, when looking at how you treat me for being an out-group person on the primaries’ topic should explain precisely what’s going on. Once the tribe agrees that certain topics are, essentially, illegal, the first person who throws rocks at the one who brings it up is always on the safe, popular side, and heretics are silenced either by the rocks or the fear of them.
Mirrors are powerful tools if you look at them without squinting.
You can choose to learn from the heretic-quashing impulses you’re showing toward me, or you can decide to stay on the side of bullying STFU-think on this topic… and forever scratching your head when you’re on the business-end of it on single-payer vs. “public option.”
Here’s a handy, well what Lambert would call a “tool,” that I use:
“Until you admit where the bottom is, you’ll always be more surprised than aware.”
When you give in to allergies that keep you from being thoughtful about some topics and which incite you to join the STFU choir, you’re not going to get to the bottom of tough topics and learn things you can find out only once you strip away all the kneejerk and tribal, um, bullshit.
No, I don’t actually seek to start fights. But neither do I shy away from relevant topics even if it’s crushingly unpopular to explore them.
Hats off to you for challenging the tribal disinformation on health-care reform. If you can extend that more broadly, you’ll be less-popular but more honest.
It’s the Heathers who are the popular ones, after all.
You can:
* choose to be like them
* choose to accept some, but not all, of their protocols
* refuse their bullshit altogether — and face the consequences.
Take a moment, if you will, and consider where you are on that continuum.
Ultimately, it’s a personal decision, and it’s as tough intellectually to understand the choice as it is morally — and socially — to make it.
vastleft,
You said:
I’m sorry vastleft, I don’t see selise, vilifying you. She did say “bullshit,” but these days that’s hardly cussing, especially around here at FDL.
Also, when I hear you saying that others are telling you to STFU, my reaction is that they are way out of bounds and that it ought to be a right of everyone commenting to deal with any subject they want to at any time here. On the hand, I also think it’s a right of anyone else to reply by not engaging in the discussion any longer, and if someone wants to say to someone else that they’re contamplating withdrawing I think that’s also their right.
On style of exchanges, unless provoked in a way that I think merits tit-for-tat behavior, I try my best to not engage in personal insults or personal remarks, avoid labeling someone without an explanation documenting the label with facts, or using ad hominems. I do this especially when I’m exchanging wih people who I identify with in some way, as I do with both yourself and selise.
I don’t always follow these rules, a couple of threads ago, someone came into one of my threads with an aggressive critical style using labeling and ad hominems. I replied very harshly in kind. He or she immediately started dropping the F-bomb. I replied in a measured way, though still using labeling and ad Hominems myself very sharply. Then my interlocutor replied with one last F-bomb, said they were done and departed the thread.
I hope these comments are helpful to both of you and selise. vastleft we’ve only recently come into contact, but I really like your perspectives and your persistence. selise and I have been interacting for a long time. We don’t always agree on every topic, but her views are researched and carefully argued. (I’m assuming her gender because selise is a female handle.) I think she’s great and is one of the most valued contributors here at FDL. Everyone takes her seriously including Jane and Scarecrow who rarely agree with her.
So, in short, I’d like to see the two of you put aside your past differences and empathize with each other. I think you both believe in democracy and participation and bottom-up rather than top-down orientations. There’s no reason to carry things on in my view, because I don’t think there are basic issues between you. If I’m wrong about this and you don’t think I’ve hit bottom in this conversation then by all means ignore me and continue. But I thought I’d affer this perspective to both of you.
In my book, these are something like vilification:
* Repeatedly shouting “bullshit!” in my direction
* Repeatedly accusing me of “hijacking” threads
* Repeatedly making a stink over a minor misinterpretation of her (?) motive for criticizing me on another blog, a misinterpretation I quickly sought to correct
* Repeatedly shaming me for daring to speak honestly in an already contentious Digby thread because it offended her sense of protocol
* Declaring, without evidence, that gratuitously lobbing insults and starting fights are my M.O. (I’ve been in plenty of scrapes, but because I choose not to be cowed by wayward conventional wisdom and STFU protocols. You just might be familiar with the territory.)
I’d say there’s plenty of provocation in there, yet I have not fought tit-for-tat.
Selise has every right not to engage me as she sees fit. Have I said otherwise?
However, “I’ll say this once then I’m out” is a hit-and-run technique. Essentially, “I’ll make my point, then la-la-la-la I can’t hear you.” I don’t see how anything gets resolved that way.
In fact, I joined the notorious Open Left discussion precisely because I empathized with her. However, because I raised the dread primaries topic, she felt compelled to distance herself from me there and in a couple of subsequent threads, including this one. There was a brief moment when she acknowledged that I had “good points” about the relevance of the primaries, and then for reasons I can’t really explain, her allergy about the topic reared its head again.
I keep referring to selise as a potential ally. The cost of that is not to agree with, nor even engage with me, on the primaries.
But behaviors such as those listed above are never going to lead anywhere very constructive. They can certainly make me appear like a pie fighter, but that’s not my objective in any way shape, or form. That’s the cost of speaking truth, and occasional well-earned snark, to conventional wisdom.
Unlike selise, I’m not winning any prizes on “everyone takes you seriously.” I chalk it up to an unwillness to eat shit when demanded. Others can make their own assessments.
In closing, I’m not much of one for holding grudges. I don’t have any deep-seated desire to be rude or dismissive to selise, and I don’t believe my interactions with her anywhere in this thread show otherwise.
My concern is speaking the truth about what I think matters, and being fair and humane. Everything else is, IMHO, secondary to that.
That’s mine too. Anyway, thanks for your contributions to this thread. I’m very much looking forward to your future posts and comments on this and other subjects. I know I’ll find them very interesting and useful.
Thanks very much. Kudos to you for fighting the good fight!
I’ve been checking out the links you provided. Quite interesting and useful, as well.