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This is an update on my previous diary trying to identify members of the Medicare for All sub-community at Firedog Lake. Again, I’m not sure how many bloggers and commenters are in it, but I think it includes at least:
– libbyliberal
– Masslib
– ralphbon
– Hugh
– selise
– hipparchia
– blub
– Ian Welsh
– lambertsrether
– montanamaven
– readerOfTeaLeaves
– Valley Girl
– Russ
– keepemhonest
– SinglePayerAdvocate
– Tracie
– HealthSustainomics
– rhythmandblues
– sporkovat
– Elliot
– Evelyn
– alank
– bluebutterfly
– marchan1940
– Nathan Aschbacher
– Justinajustice
– Sanityplz
– MedicareForAllMarch
– arcuate
– nanb
– Jkat
– lilybelle
– pdgrey
– jawbone
– kipsullivan
– wigwam
– greenwarrior
– john in sacramento
– public.takeover
– mui1
– Jim White
– perris
– thom hartmann
– Loo Hoo
– yellowsnapdragon
– musicsleuth
– nonplussed
– Twain
– Margot
– Eureka Springs
– marymccurnin
– Any Day
– therealhellkitty
– starrynight
– elouise
– Gabriele
– esseff44
– foothillsmike
– TheCallUP
– ChePasa
– erinmblair
– billybugs
– JayGold
– dcblogger
– indiepro
– kgosztola
– kassandra
– iremember54
– Dr.Zen
– eagleeye
– cassiodorus
– ellenbeth
– cbsunglass
– vastleft
– GDC707
– newtonusr
– lefttown
– OutWest
– ADC14
– klynn
– Mauimom
– shootthatarrow
– Mason
– Gitcheegumee
– shoes4industry
– marcopolo
– Dissenta
– djfourmoney
– mntleo2
– mapsguy1955
– khin
– DavidByron
– ubetchaiam
– progressiveobserver
– Art45
– robspierre
– cujo359
– CharlieFoxtrot
– acquarius74
– nancywilling
And yours truly, letsgetitdone, which makes 101 people.
Recently, Jane Hamsher started the first Medicare for All activist project on Firedog Lake, greatly assisted by research performed by selise and libbylberal, two of our most committed Medicare for All Folks. The project gives the Medicare for All community here a chance to support Jonathan Tasini, a candidate in the New York State Democratic Party Primary for the US Senate, running against Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, the appointee replacing Hillary Clinton as the junior Senator from New York. Jonathan seems totally committed to Medicare for All, and takes very strong progressive positions on a number of other issues as well. If we could help get him elected, I think he would be a real champion of Medicare for All and also of taking the Democratic Party back from the plutocracy. I call for the FDL Medicare for All community to get behind Jonathan. Contribute what you can, whenever you can, to get him off the ground, and volunteer your efforts in other ways to make Jonathan Tasini, Senator from New York, a reality.
Thanks to Jane, selise and libbyliberal for getting Medicare for All activism going at Firedog Lake.
(If I’ve missed anyone in this list, or included someone mistakenly, please let me know in the comments. Let’s get this list revised and make it a good one.)
(Also posted at the alllifeisproblemsolving blog where there may be more comments)
147 Comments
Count me in!
Seldom comment, but I find your argument and approach persuasive.
I feel like we’re being dragooned into something that’s not in our best interest. The implication is we are already resigned to further delay in the advancement of our society, healthcare-wise.
Are there cites to corroborate the claim the candidate is a strong supporter of MFA?
hey lets and fellow single payer folk! :)
Bernie Sanders’ amendment is now in play in the Senate. He with Brown and Burris (interesting) filed it a few days ago. I am calling Dem senators pushing them to accept the bill ONLY WITH BERNIE’S AMENDMENT. The bill has some toxic stuff in it. Right now some of the voice mails are full so I will try emails or calling during day.
Here is my latest wrap up for anyone who has time right now to do some contacting. It is on the diaries list.
“Everything you may not know or want to know about the Health Care Reform ….”
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/17789” rel=”nofollow”>
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/17789
I don’t know if this link will work. Something goofy happened.
BTW: The above linked diary I wrote because I am going to copy it into an email and send to some of my friends and family. I was addressing it outward to one friend in particular, who is obviously very reluctant to wade into this “health reform stuff” and I was trying to really spell it out.
Thanks so much, libbyliberal. This is great. Jonathan is a great candidate, I spoke with him this morning and he had a wonderful time yesterday. We’re going to be helping him as much as we can.
Yes, I am psyched re Jonathan and FDL, and you were a catalyst once again, cuz he has been on my forever to do list, to look into his campaign. Again, I am sending the check for him to you at MA address. I have it ready to mail. Is that right?
Do you have any further ideas to use this window of opportunity to help the Bernie Sanders’ amendment? The latest reading I have done on the senate bill sounds like Medicare is being dangerously savaged.
I see you are getting quoted on single payer action website!!! :) The work you have done, petitions re filibuster ending, etc. Excellent!
Off to work. Take care!
Alank, I have been following Jonathan Tasini for awhile. I had him on my radio show a year ago. I have followed his blog Working Life I’ve seen him battle the corporate cranks on CNBC with great success. He was supremely articulate in championing the auto workers during the “bailout” of the auto industry. He pulls no punchs and doesn’t use weasel phrases. So I think he’s the real deal. Here’s the discussion with Jonathan yesterday; Blue America Welcomes Jonathan Tasini
I’m pretty much done with electoral politics and will continue to mostly try to change minds locally through letters to editor and teach ins, but Jonathan is the only person I have given money to because of his strong support for a universal health care plan and for support of unions.
Also here’s a good article on “Online Journal” about what to call this initiative. I always found “Single Payer” not the greatest title.
In Praise of Senator Max Baucus by Mike Ferner.
AmericaPlan HB 676 is expanded and improved Medicare for All. Go AmericaPlan!
Count us in: Roy & Andrea Davis. We went to a local congressman’s rally a couple of months ago carrying a sign that read: Medicare for all. We were booed. The crowd was loaded with senior citizens. These people were defending the most hated corporations in America. Unbelievable. This and other conundrums (evolution anyone?) keeps me coming back to a basic issue: declining education in America. That issue keeps me coming back to another even more important issue: corporate control of Congress. The connection between money and democracy is ever more evident. If we expect to get democracy back, we need public financing of campaigns. I don’t see another way at this late date to get the Congressional reps to vote for the health of AMERICA.
I am definitely a Medicare for All activist. I am an avid reader and commentator on Firedoglake! :)
Thanks mcsquared. Does that mean I add you to the list of Medicare for All supporters?
Hi Alan, check the diary, and the comments. He’s very direct and plain speaking about his support. There’s no equivocation or politospeak. ralphbon writes about his past performances. Jane talks about his steadfastness. He seems like a good bet to me. But, frankly, it’s always a bet these days, isn’t it?
Thanks libby. The diary looks great. Thanks for linking to it. I’ll comment on it a bit later, after I finish here.
Thanks Roy and Andrea, I’ll count you in, and I also agree that we need to sever the tie between money and politics. Money cannot continue to be speech, or equality is lost to us, unless, of course, we determine to spread the wealth equally across the population. -:) -:) -:)
You’re on.
In the list above lamberstrether is listed a Medicare for All supporter. Since lambert has been banned from FDL as a troll, he has asked me to remove his name from this list.
Btw, folks, Kip Sullivan, one of the leading writers on single payer, has started what promises to be a very interesting 6 part series here. The title of Part One is: “Two-thirds of Americans support Medicare-for-all.” Enjoy!
Glad to see this push is continuing. Great work! Thanks.
Hey Lets! I suggested that we need to work to change the whole of both parties in bothy houses but the moderator must not have liked that.
Many we are giving great credit to on healthcare are not for single payer, and only a very few are.
So all I’m saying is that we need a third party, a singel payer party thet will work to replace the people who have fought is for over a half a century.
Doesn’t the single payer party have a kind of ring to it.
mee too!
go for it!
my time, energy, and money are all limited, and when i’m not blogging, i put my spare rl resources into florida and floridians, extending [very] occasionally to other parts of the gulf coast. parochial of me, but them again, you can always think of it as taking up the call to find single payer candidates in every district [a goal of which i approve].
WarOnError, May I add you to the list.
iremember54, We can’t organize a new party around a single issue. There are a whole host of things to fix in American Society, and a new Party needs a platform that will address the most serious things that are wrong and do so with a set of general principles in mind.
Thanks marcos. I thought I had you on the list, already. Sorry for the oversight.
hipparchia, You’re already sixth on the list. Were you submitting yourself as a candidate for Congress committed to single-payer that FDL might support? If so, then Jane, please take note.
David Byron is listed above as one the MFA supporters at FDL. However, he has written me and asked to be taken off the list, since he has been banned from FDL.
Hey Lets, I for it nomatter what. Lets work on it.
I agree. Some months ago there was a diary comparing what is involved in taking the Democratic Party back vs. what would be involved in starting a new Party. I’ll try to find the reference.
6 parts of trouble coming down for the ‘political yes-buts’!
thats part one.
Kip Sullivan weighs in.
It seems like there was a significant level of banning going on involving single payer advocates.
Jane H. decided to use us for a fun game of whack-a-mole for a while.
I wonder if she is done. I wonder if I am.
i’ve considered campaigning as something of a protest candidate, but it’s an ultraconservative district [although we do have some flaming lefties here besides me]. the best i could hope for is to get some ideas into a few heads [and if i'm lucky, onto a few tv screens].
one of the biggest worries i have personally: this area is one of the epicenters of abortion clinic violence [3 murders and 2 or 3 clinic bombings over the years] and i’m rabidly pro-choice. things have been quiet on this front lately, and even the loyal band of protesters outside the local clinic have dropped in number a bit, but still…
i [heart] kip sullivan.
I read your re-cap back on the Act Blue thread, about how disappointing and pathetic the outcome was re Tasini.
You are not building a union and partnership, you are settling a score it seems. Is that how you bond with people, by bullying? Is that how you punish, by bullying? Is that how you clean out your website from people with different temperaments and philosophies? I don’t know. What is it you want?
You have no idea how grateful I have been to stretch with political commentary and write on Oxford then Seminal. It has been such a great experience diarying here. I thank you for this website and its wonderful community-oriented structure. I congratulate you on all your success. Your commitment. Your effectiveness. Your intuition. You have inspired such deep loyalty within this community.
What is the code here? Rude is good?
Cuz you are reminding me of the Queen in Alice in Wonderland, or the Soup Nazi on Seinfeld dealing with some of us single payer people who wanted to work with you on some important issues. Anyway, I am assuming that is not who you are, hoping that.
I agree with the remarks of Roy and Andrea about the tie between money and politics, and I like the idea of public financing of campaigns. These days to have even the slightest chance of becoming a president of this nation, one need to have millions and millions of dollars in the bank.
But what’s makes this new “blue America” initiative so different? Isn’t this also paying a politician to get his/her vote on a single specific issue, just like corporations are paying them to get their vote? I admit I don’t know much about these matters. But shouldn’t we all stop paying, and start focusing more on changing the old rules of the game in these old institutions instead. Just wondering.
thanks lets, this is a great follow up diary!
just my take but it get’s sp on the front page as an acceptable topic for discussion (which has been a large part of my request). it’s no longer “off the table” and for me that’s big progress (more here and here on my pov).
i don’t know if slowereastside is still around but he/she has frequently spoken up in favor of single payer medicare for all here.
also nomolos is a long time commenter who might be interested in being included.
and i hope sisterkenney and lambert will be unbanned, so they can be on this list if they wish.
I’m generally leery of list-making to identify subcommunities, since it sets up an us/them dichotomy that strikes me as antithetical to seeking wider coalitions. But it’s useful to haul out Joe’s list for current purposes.
I’m not sure how the FDL effort tracks with that of PDA, which has been pushing not just Tasini but Marcy Winograd and — most urgently — Mike Capuano in the Massachusetts primary that takes place tomorrow .
Capuano is solidly pro-SP and anti-interventionist. Despite some strong endorsements (Pelosi, Dukakis), he’s trailing the Bill Clinton-endorsed front-runner. More on how to help him here.
Do we know why he was banned?
lets,
Please add me to your list of the Medicare for All community at Firedog Lake.
Honestly, I don’t think we can really call it a “sub-community,” though I understand why you have.
Based on FDL Action’s Blue America project and endorsement of Jonathan Tasini for the U S Senate, I think you can add Jane Hamsher to your list as well.
Please see my Progressive Memo: Focus on Winning Elections, particularly “Key Issue 2: Health Care Reform.”
‘mornin’, all. Been gone for a while, but back now. Please add me to the list.
It’s only two cases and David Byron had other disagreements with the dominant view apart from his support for Medicare for All. In fact his banning may have had nothing to do with that.
However, that said, it is alarming that people are being banned for what amounts to civil speech. In some ways I have stricter standards for acceptable commenting on my own blog than apply here. I actually have a set of rules, originally devised for e-mail list serv groups, I apply and I have rejected and will reject comments that violate rules I’ve specified here. However, the only people I ban are spammers and advertisers, never people, no matter what they say politically speaking.
That’s very helpful…I was not one of the original, first comers, even though I have been here for a while and treasure the community. I would be interested in seeing/knowing the kinda stuff that = banning begetting behavior. There was someone early on when I was really shocked/then got a very minimum explanation.
I’d also like to add that I was one of the 12 who contributed to the campaign to elect Jonathan Tasini. I made the contribution during our chat with him the other day here at Firedoglake (Blue America Welcomes Jonathan Tasini).
Please click here to contribute any amount you can to help Jonathan win.
Btw, take a look through the thread of the chat we had with Jonathan the other day. It was a great conversation!
It’s a tough decision hipparchia. Can you have more influence writing or more influence as a protest candidate? Of course, you can do both, but depending on who you are and your personal abilities, they may be somewhat competitive.
Maybe we need to pay the ones who are willing to support public financing so that they have a chance to pass it. Then we will support all the candidates with public funds.
Thank you, selise.
I think it’s big progress too.
I forgot that sisterkenney was just banned too. That makes 3.
I’ll add slowereastside and nomolos.
Thanks ralph.
Great rules, Joe. I recommend this to be used at FDL. It strengthens the transparency in the case of rejecting a diary or comment. But you are so right, one may disagree with the content of a comment, but that doesn’t mean one bans or dumps a fellow human being. Isn’t this at the heart of Medicare for All too?
Jacob Hacker, in The New Republic, finally expressed opposition to the latest proposals for an emasculated PO. I guess he’s reached his breaking point.
No. But he may have been banned for his range of contrarian views and not for his SP advocacy.
Excuse me, but it’s time to stop talking as though others here were against single payer.
I have been saying that Jane was right because she saw the path to single payer (way oversimplifying here) as having 2 steps:
You all kept insisting that it could be done in one step, now. That’s the only difference I can see.
Jane is now saying, correctly, that the path to single payer (way oversimplifying here) has 2 steps:
That’s how I’ve always seen it. Sorry you felt that people here were against single payer because they had a different strategy for making it a reality.
Thank you Knox, I’m happy to add you to the list.
In your diary you said:
I didn’t see Jane exactly say that. Did I miss it>
On adding Jane to the list. I’ll be very happy to add her, and I’ve long believed that Jane, Eve, and Marcy, are all very much for SP at heart. But I won’t add Jane to the list until she says to do that.
One final point, you say that Jane was right to support the PO. I flatly disagree.
In many blogs, I’ve pointed out all the reasons why PO supporters, including Jane made a grave error in supporting the PO. It was a disastrous precompromise and has cost us the whole ball game.
I’ll keep saying that because I think it is an important lesson learned from the present fiasco that needs to be acknowledged by those who made the error. If that error is not acknowledged, we will be spending the next 15 years fighting small wars for small gains in the PO while the nation goes bankrupt due to rising health insurance costs.
I think that American Politics has been poisoned by the inability of people in it to admit that they’ve made mistakes and move on. Until we have that kind of honesty and directness, we will never make any progress. We need to end the cuteness and the splitting hairs, just say when we’ve been wrong about something, and get on to the next strategy as quickly as we can. George Soros has perfected this and made it a fine art. It is how he has made his $8 Billion Dollars. It’s time to take a page out of his book and FDR’s in how we treat our errors.
Sure.
Sorry. I can’t answer that question.
I recommend the chat too. I wasn’t there while it was going on, but reviewed it carefully later. I’m also one of the contributors, or to be accurate, my wife, Bonnie, contributed for both of us.
Thanks Henk, I hope people here take a look at them.
Knox, I never felt people here were against SP in any absolute sense. But there’s no question that people here fell mainly int two groups, those who adhered and still adhere to the Kip Sullivan’s “yes, but” position, and those who think that we should always be leading with SP. The SP supporters being listed here are those, including yourself who now believe that the messaging should be Medicare for All and that there should be no precompromises.
Regarding Jane’s present position, as you characterize it. I think this position is a good position for both groups, and I welcome Jane’s support for strong SP advocates in office. It’s a position we can all unite on, despite any differences that may still exist over whether the current bill should be killed, or whether the messaging on hcr should now focus on Medicare for All.
Yes, work towards public financing at the state level. And in the meantime throw a few bucks to Jonathan who also believes in public financing. Oh and keep threatening to stay home and not vote at all. We need to scare the crap out of them. And keep talking to your neighbors. Admittedly, that was harder for me last night than usual. I had to listen to a whole lot of dead deer jokes. You know, “Did you ever strap a fake deer to your car hood and put a red nose on it?” Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha…. It was harder than ever to segue into health care after those jokes, but I hung in there.
The strategy of “getting more Democrats elected” is no longer a winning strategy for me. It just keeps the machine going but does nothing for citizens. I also knew in 2008 that Obama could care less about health care reform. His deputy chief of staff was Max’s chief of staff, so whatever Max came up with was what the WH wanted. Here in Montana, the powers that be tried to keep single payer people away from the forums. Didn’t work. The “public option” was used as a bait and switch as Kip Sullivan wisely pointed out awhile ago. I refused to be used and I have no desire to be “a player”. But I don’t mind helping make this site “a player”, if it helps Medicare for All and takes away power from that big bad blog.
Hi montanamaven,
As I said, I don’t know much about these issues, and public financing at a state level seems a good way to start. But I do know about those kinds of visits, and these jokes. Brrrrh! Keep up the good work.
Thank you for adding me to the list!
We are going to have to agree to disagree on whether Jane’s strategy “cost us the whole ball game.” Imo, we were contenders because the fight was for a public health insurance option as a means to an end, rather than on shooting for single payer immediately. In other words, a po was part of the ball game this year. Single payer was not, imo.
Excellent points.
However, please remember that Bernie Sanders caucuses with the Democrats. Any independent who gets elected and who cares about the issues you care about would have to caucus with the Democrats to get thing done.
When I write Democrats, I’m using shorthand for caucusing with Democrats.
nope. for over a year i have been saying things like sp should be part of the debate (i have also questioned the policy and politics of the po strategy, in particular the pre-compromise the summer of 2008), that sp shouldn’t be taken off the table and that organizations like pnhp could be supported as well as hcan.
none of that precludes incremental steps, in fact incremental steps that build public support towards the goal (in this case universal healthcare) are an important part of any social movement strategy. but when the incremental steps don’t make sense to me (and indeed are going to strengthen the very corporate interests we’re going to have to go against eventually), especially when i see other incremental steps available that do make make sense to me, i’m going to question the politics and the strategy,
Add me to the list of Medicare for All supporters here.
In the spirit of incrementalism toward Medicare for All, there is this reported proposal to lower Medicare’s entry age to 55:
I don’t really think it’s all that important for those people to admit they’ve made a mistake; in so far as we can even objectively measure that they did. The lesson would seem to be that we can’t keep arguing in favor of market-based solutions to a problem which fundamentally cannot be served by markets. As a matter of opinion, I suspect it would be easier to convince people to abandon the market than it would be to require some kind of mea culpa.
These kinds of minor statutory revisions seem like they ought to be a lot more enactable than broad new programs and edifices. Pick narrow bands at the top and bottom of the age range (0-65), and then ratchet them closer and closer together.
You’re a brave lady Diane. I know you’ll never give up.
Are you referring to DailyKos?
Knox, We went into this asking for 185K for our house when we wanted to sell it for 185k. It was a abysmally stupid negotiating tactic, that none of us would follow with our own house.
You said:
Of course not, because progressives precompromised and ruled it out of bounds before the politics began in earnest. PO Progressives ensured that Medicare for All would never be news and would never make the major media except for PBS. That was never inevitable. It was because our progressive organizations and blogs acceded to the PO promoters and sold us all out for supposed access.
As a result, these organizations may not survive. Move-on for example will not get another dime of money from me again until it goes back to an SP position, and DFA and OFA can go suck some eggs too as far as I’m concerned.
Caucusing with Democrats to get things done is fine. But tell me what’s he getting done now, compared to what Joe Lieberman’s gotten done for his side. I love Bernie. He’s a great voice for us. But he needs to refine his skills at saying “No. Unless I get X, Y, or Z I am filibustering and you won’t pass this bill. And, if you don’t like it then give me what I want or get rid of the filibuster. Your choice.”
I just saw that too. It’s potentially progress on single payer, but also a huge job creator. Lots of people don’t retire because they’d be without healthcare.
and nothing less than $185K would work because of the size of our mortgage.
imo, there was no room for compromise and still have the possibility of a working system.
Heh. That’s how I used to operate as President of the Board for a non-profit when confronted with the polarization of the romantics and the realists amongst the other members.
Essentially, “Both of you are going to move in a direction that actually solves this problem, or I’m not signing this document, and we close the doors tomorrow morning.”
Ah, selise a moderate comment. Of course if Knx reads my blogs she’ll see I’ve never insisted on Medicare for All in one step, but only on no precompromise and on fighting foor it up until the last moment. So, I’ve never advocated the one-step either. On the other hand, the PO people may have advocated two steps, but the reality is that they have tolerated a lot more steps than that in both the House and the Senate. And, of course, the more steps we’ve had, the weaker the hcr bill has become, until now it is a bill that must be killed, so we can start fresh with medicare for All in an election year.
Thanks fairleft.
I think that would make the bill much more worthwhile, and would probably materially cut down on the anticipated deaths, bankruptcies, and foreclosures due to lack of coverage. I also think it is material progress toward Medicare for All, and would establish a nice precedent for similar incrementalism later.
so long as the single payer nature of medicare is not undermined further (see medicare advantage). it’s got to be virtually everyone in whatever age range is chosen (55 and up or whatever).
if done this way, while fixing the current problems with medicare, i think this could be huge (*). but i’m going to wait to see the details because it could also be another way of undermining medicare.
(*) note: this is one of the proposals put forward by sp advocates as an incrementalist alternative to the po/mandate dem plan (which they said from the start was flawed and probably not workable). for example, i heard (via podcast) marcia angell talk about it in a talk she gave at princeton more than a year ago.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/15873#comment-100806
i don’t know anyone who advocated one step. but thought i could at least most easily document my own history quickly (because i remember the links).
LOL. guess i should take that as a friendly reminder to watch my tone. thanks!
Nathan, I’m not requiring anything from people. I’m just saying that if we don’t insist that our public figures freely admit mistakes when they make them and begin to easily learn from experience, this civilization is going down. It is adaptive to admit mistakes and try something else. it is not to cling to one’s reputation and to old patterns of thinking.
A case in point. The primary lesson the Clinton people drew from the 1993-1994 fiasco was that they shouldn’t have tried to present the Administration’s bill up-front, but should have left it to Congress to formulate the hcr bill. They couldn’t face the idea that maybe they were wrong about not simply going against the insurance companies and trying to get Medicare for All. Because they could not do that, those who learned the wrong lesson came back again this time and invented the PO strategy, and now we have this travesty on our hands.
I don’t want to see this happen a third time. Next time hcr come up: “it’s Medicare for All, stupid,” no ifs ands or buts, as far as I’m concerned.
Mine too, but if they had gone in strong for 205k (Medicare for All) and threatened to tie up the system unless they got it, they would have been much more likely to have come up with a good PO now, and without having had to sell it or explain it to the American people, or go through the tea-bagging besides.
How’d it work for you?
Not at all. It certainly was a moderate comment. Nor am I anyone qualified to tell you to moderate your tone. -:) -:) -:)
ack. my bad. should have been gone ages ago…. great thread, catch you all later…
Very, very well; for the most part. There are limits.
In the end the whole enterprise wasn’t viable due to the restrictions placed on the organization by its not-for-profit charter (% revenues from specific sources). The point at which the founders of the organization were willing to essentially defraud the community, to keep their vision going, was the point at which I resigned. Actually it was a frivolous lawsuit that I was being threatened with , over my attempts to prevent that fraud, by the founders that pushed me over the edge to where I just opted to bail. They wanted to sue me for denial of due process, because I intended to fire them, and they were making a State Constitutional claim that their jobs there were their property (which I’d have been denying them); an interesting position to take in an at-will employment State.
It was incredibly stupid, and would have likely incriminated themselves for huge marks of malfeasance prior to my coming on, but it was a lot more than I was willing to fight over at the age of 25 for something of largely dubious import to the community.
My departure was a statement to the effect of, “Okay, you want to torpedo this whole thing yourselves? Okie dokie.” Some 6 months or so later, the whole thing unraveled, and it went under. The loss of the venue for performing arts wasn’t as big a hit to the community as the loss of the history of the building and the downtown Spokane area that was elevated by patrons to the venue.
I also learned that you can undo a lot of the potency of two mutually reinforcing narcissists “clever” plots to undermine your authority by just being smarter than they are and making them (and sometimes others) aware of exactly what they’re up to. There are some benefits to having been a rebellious only child raised by an overbearing and manipulative Catholic mother; you see things coming a thousand miles away.
Works for me.
Congrats for your hard work and commitment in this endeavor Lgid. Fired up, ready to go!
Thanks. That was really interesting.
I was also the youngest person involved, by a margin of at least 20 years. The process of earning the respect of highly experienced, highly activist, and highly opinionated people during that time was not the most valuable lesson, but it was the most rewarding one.
Many of them are amongst my dearest friends; even today.
My point wasn’t about whether Sanders is effective, but just that those of us who don’t vote for Democrats should remember that, even if their independent candidate were to win, he or she would be caucusing with the Democrats just like Sanders does. That’s all.
Right. But my implication was that if there are more independents perhaps they need not caucus with anyone but one another, but still might be quite powerful since each side would be looking to secure their votes either to block or to pass legislation, especially if the Senate insists on maintaining the filibuster.
I should rephrase that. It was the earning of respect on the conviction and argumentation of my ideas, not the respect itself.
That will not be happening as a result of the 2010 midterm elections, and seeing how there are two independents in the Senate – who are as opposite as can be, btw – it’s not likely to happen as a result of the next several elections.
With the current balance, you’d need at least three or four, as we’ve been seeing recently. I think Tasini’s a good candidate to back. Where do you see another candidate or two who can actually win?
I’d like to say that, while Jane whipped votes for a public option rather than single payer and while I have supported Jane’s position in the current political configuration, we two are among the 12 who contributed to Jonathan Tasini’s campaign for the U S Senate in 2010.
I know that letsgetitdone and his wife contributed.
Where is everyone else?
Here’s the link to the contribution page at Blue America.
Tasini cannot win if he doesn’t get financial support.
The top quintile of income earners are fully one-half of all the income earned in the U.S.
20% of the people earn 50% of the money. The next quintile down earns fully one-quarter of all the income earned in the U.S.
40% of the people earn 75% of the money. Given the diminishing marginal utility of wealth, the picture is actually worse than that. Because it will be significantly more difficult to extract a Dollar from the bottom than its proportional equivalent from the top.
I’d like to see us come up with ways to operate successful campaigns on the cheap, because as long as it takes money to get elected, we’re only going to get people who run on money. Having said that, I am 3 of those other 12 people as I contributed on behalf of myself, selise, and libbyliberal.
Thanks, I understand.
my 2 cents
I’d like to see the Medicare entry age to be dropped from 65 to 55 and those younger than 55 to be allowed to “buy into Medicare” by paying monthly premiums, just like any other insurance program.
wigwam, I think that would be a very constructive compromise on the road to Medicare for All, which I would certainly support in this context. However, I don’t think progressives will dig into their heels to get that. We can pressure for it, but in the end whether it happens depends on their ability to say “no” unless they get it.
Thanks Knoxville
I know you don’t mean it this way, but, why is there this implied message throughout the last several days that unless you give money to someone you’ve never heard of, that your opinion lacks validity?
This is extremely insulting
Again, I know you don’t mean it this way
But there are several possible factors for the lack of donations. The first is what I mentioned above – that somehow because a stranger is posting something on the internet we should give our hard earned money. Then there is the fact that we are in what’s arguably the worst recession in that last 70 years. Unemployment has been in the double digits for several quarters. Bankruptcies have increased 100% over last year at this time. Homes are still being foreclosed on. Food stamp usage is at record highs. Homelessness is increasing. Tuition for higher education is sky-rocketing
To echo selise, many people are furthering movement based issues in their own communities. Many people have worked, and are working in their own communities to further several issues (antiwar, civil liberties, social issue advocation …) which include volunteering locally for M4A or SP advocacy. Many people are giving in their own communities whether financially and/or through sweat equity
Plus, it’s Christmas
To be perfectly honest if you’re (not you personally) asking me to spend my hard earned money on a stranger all the way across the country rather than my daughter, or my family. I gotta tell you, you lose
My daughter comes first, no ifs, ands, or buts
yikes! don’t forget the adverse selection, among other things. here’s a comment i just made elsewhere:
beware the details. this could actually be a good way to further undermine the single payer system we do have in medicare.
if medicare is going to be extended down to age 55, it has to be for everyone (and probably funded primarily via taxes — not premiums). that’s what makes it single payer and an entitlement instead of either a welfare program (if subsidies for low income) or too expensive for many (if no subsidies). single payer is how we avoid the traps of adverse selection, weak regulation and excessive administrative costs of a small po in a multipayer system.
before endorsing this kind of idea i strongly suggest we consult with the policy experts at pnhp. what do marcia angell, steffie woolhanger and david himmelstein say?
there may be ways to do this, but please please please let’s make sure we don’t do anything to undermine the closest thing we have to a single payer system (medicare) right now.
these guys have been trying to con us for over a year. this may be another con (if reports are even true).
I’ve been reading this post and leaving this post and coming back to this post because it is at one point all engaging and at a separate but equal point an attack on Jane Hamsher,Marcy,Eve and the basic foundation of FDL as being “Bitchy”.
This is of great concern to me when coupled with the list-making anthem.
I guess I’m just going to say this; If you’re not a high level troll explain why Jane’s comment at #4 elicited the response you gave through out the comments.
Explain how the other jumping on that peculiar bandwagon by letsgetitdone at 56 isn’t a curious response.
Maybe Chris Hedges is right. Liberals are wankers as a culture. I’ve experienced it driving 150 miles round trip to attend a major protest in Seattle with 2 youngbloods that I’d talked into going with me for the Youth Presence. But the theme was “wear Black” to look like a funeral procession and we weren’t interested in theme. The organizers actually told us that we were not welcome to stand that close to the fake coffin because we weren’t wearing the right color for the theme. This was a church sponsored event/performance art thingy attached to the serious antiwar rally.
Fuck this “Let’s all go out and be wankers” liberal soft hand warm showers food in fridge endless whining rule making bullshit.
It was those people that looked my young people in the eye and said “Where Are The Young People?”. SHIT. They moved over to the Black Block and never looked back. But they could have said “Fuck This”. We owe our Iraq Vets Against the War thanks of a grateful Nation. They are the nationally invisible heroes tending their own, fighting for their own. They help’d channel the youngbloods anger into a positive force that day.
Maybe it’s time for us “Olds” to acknowledge that we’ve grown soft.
Thank you Jane, Marcy, Eve, Christy, Lisa for being the strong woman you all are. If you want to kick a little ass some time it’s okay by me.!! Got your back, sisters.
When I think of all the BIG ASS you’re kicking on a regular basis…..I’m sure we can support you on the” hurt liberal feeling “front. Unless trolls walk amongst us more astute than easy mark Palin-Tea party diversions. The media is the massage.Also.
Bitches Rock !! Thank you from the depths of my heart.
think you are the only commenter on this thread to use the word “bitch.” dissent is not in and of itself a bad thing (except where only ditto heads are wanted). if you object to the content of the dissent, then please argue on the merits. however, if you object to dissent in general then we’re just going to have to disagree about that.
oh, and if you don’t drop the trolls labeling until you have reason to use it. you may not get a response.
Thanks John. I do think that there’s been a bit of that in the cheerleading about giving to Jonathan’s campaign, and I think your objection is very valid.
openhope, you said:
I’m afraid I’m not sure what you mean by this. My comment at 56 was a particular reply to a claim by Knoxville. Why are you implying it was an attack on Jane, Marcy, and Eve? Or have I simply misunderstood what you said.
As for your attack on libby. She is no troll. Try reading a few of her dairies and then lets see you come back and call her a troll.
Thanks selise.
FUCK!!!! I’m going to be caste out. Right? ?!!? Hate when that happens. There’s an old joke from my wild youth. Your best friend isn’t the person who bails you out when you wind up in jail for an infraction. Your best friend is sitting next to you in holding saying, ” Fuck, that was FUN !’.
When in the world of open media it is our duty to question the source and find the common denominators in our dialogue that clue us in to…to what….?…trust….safety….awareness that we’re constantly manipulated and trust comes from understanding the constant message in another person’s voice.
If someone wants to attack a sister for being responsive to their idea and framing it as bitching; so be it. Take it outside.
As a raised our children; This is not a Democracy. This is a Benevolent Dictatorship. Deal with it. You want a democracy go make your own. FDL has no choice but to be a Benevolent Dictatorship. Deal with it and be glad you have them. Period. End of lecture.
I am not trying to rise against you. I would rather rise with you.
I have admired Libby for a long time. I apologize for winging it in comments when I should just do the old fashioned legal pad writing before publishing. However, I’ve sensed an undercurrent that is becoming unproductive.
Labeling Queen, Soup Nazi is all good now? WTF.
If not a troll don’t talk like a troll. Fuck the personal feelings of being confronted. This whole thing is bigger then that. Bigger then us.
It’s their site. It’s their life. It’s the amazing creation they concocted when the sick realization of media propaganda was starting to hit big time. It’s our privilege to piggyback on their endeavor to reward our own needs.
Do not disrespect at that level, IMHO.
Sorry, openhope. I just don’t buy that. Sure all web sites are owned by some entity that owns the site. But when that entity establishes a community, it has the choice of what kind of community it will construct. If it beleives in constitutionalism, it will construct and maintain an open community, governed by transparency, inclusiveness, trust, and civility. If it believes otherwise it will construct something that is either visibly closed or clandestinely so. If the community is true to the principles of progressivism, it will not be a benevolent dictatorship. It will eat its own dog food and be open. I hope this is the path that FDL will follow.
I trust we can discuss ideas without getting bogged down in the possible personal motivations of fellow commenters. In particular please refrain from calling other folks here trolls. We encourage language which is respectful of others, which includes finding other ways to express ideas than using words like ‘bitch’ unless as a verb or with respect to a canine. Thanks.
Libby, I agree with your comment. I’ve just reread this whole thread. He is banned. She is banned. What is all this banning? What kind of bad things have these people done? It can’t be any worse than the recent behavior of the CEO of FDL on this site, which she happens to own. Is FDL some kind of new religion or a church where Pope Jane excommunicates non-believers or disbelievers at will? Seems we’re back at the Middle Ages banning people and condemning them to the stake. I don’t like this.
This doesn’t seem to be such a nurturing place after all, seems rather hostile and I’m afraid no (joint) movement will grow and prosper here. But it still puzzles me, what kind of game is played? What are the interests? It’s clear to me that Pope Jane wants these MFA people to leave her church. They don’t seem to be true believers. “Good riddance!” . And the people left will bow for the idol they’ve made, and offer some more. Thank you, as I will rethink my position.
Wow. When I go to Hell, I hope to be half this smug.
Okay, I’m willing to accept the premise that my mind is dulled right now[ family medical trauma] and I’m not getting the full picture.
How is it okay to say these names like Soup Nazi? Or implying that Jane is Queen in Alice land, whatever the fuck that means. It’s just not okay in my book. Especially because we’re talking community. I couldn’t go to a council meeting in real life and throw that shit around. And I love to throw shit at council meetings, believe me!!
Excuse my French. Fuck this sense of ownership you feel.
Damn. I just knew at some point my little bitch was going to come out. She’s been holding back for awhile.
used to be very very nurturing. that past is hard to reconcile with current conditions, but keep hoping this is a temporary aberration.
Gently, folks. There are real issues.
Are you talking to me? *g*
(((openhope))), i’m very sorry to hear that you are having to deal with family medical trauma. hugs to you and to your family.
libby isn’t giving any worse than she’s been getting (actually not even close). please take a look at what she is responding to before judging her.
hi lurk. gently is a good call. trying. failing a lot i know.
I’m really not judging. Honest. I’m questioning.
Can we not say ugly, inflammatory names. It too weird.
that’s a really really good point. and i haven’t been answering you. so i can see that would be incredibly frustratign (or at least it would be to me).
the reason i haven’t been directly answering you is that i think my answer would be inflammatory and not constructive, even if all it was quotes with links to the sources.
so, i’m kinda stuck as to what to do. i can’t explain why i think libby was provoked, but i want to defend her because i think she was.
what am i to do in this situation?
I know what I’d do. Blame Letsgetitdone !! lol.
I think we need to regroup and not be so quick. I understand there’s friction. Yet, there will be friction always.
Peace
peace openhope. and warm thoughts and best wishes to your family.
Okay, goodnight all. I’m going to go call Finland and get an update on my brother’s condition. He’s out of ICU and in a ward now. That’s hopeful.
It breaks my heart to experience real Health Care like they have in Finland….through a looking glass, if you want the Alice in Wonderland theme. If America only knew the reality of what healthcare is in developed countries.
I’ll call and get an update from the kind and unhurried multi-lingual nurse. Then I’ll doze by the phone until the neurosurgeon calls me back as soon as he can. Usually 1 hr and he apologizes for keeping me waiting. It makes me want to hug him. There’s long pauses in the conversation as they let me prepare for the new information and formulate questions. There is no sense of hurry, it’s hard to fathom for an American.
My brother has no money, no assets. And yet they talk recovery,rest,healing as if there’s no time frame and no restrictions. Because these are local jobs without insurance manipulation.
We need what Finland has!!!!!
Openhope, I wish you and your brother well.
Regarding your comments, if you haven’t seen this previous thread, you’re missing the crucial context for comments such as libby’s at 33.
Henk, I know that Jane has made some angry remarks here and has banned some people. But the truth is that in this blogosphere, both right and left, banning is common. Generally, I’ve admired Jane’s restraint here, and believe that very little banning goes on because she has wanted to maintain an open site. So credit where credit is due, and criticism where that is due.
Generally speaking Jane has developed an open environment and considering her commitment and effort on health care reform, and I have, in the past, admired her effort in this respect and, have felt, that compared to DailyKos and others, that FDL has been on the side of the angels.
Smug???? Please elaborate.
Ownership?
Thanks Mod! Gently is the watchword.
I think you need to present the links and let openhope evaluate them.
Peace to you openhope and peace, hope and a return to health for your family also. I’ll gladly take the blame on for this thread.
Finland and many other nations. Btw, apropos of your comment, you may be interested in this diary I posted a few months back.
The second installment of Kip Sullivan’s 6-Part series on medicare for All has now appeared here.
I appreciate the support I am getting here, and I appreciate the discussion, and the abundant support I have gotten from comrades on this awesome website and to all my comments and diaries. I started to list everyone and it seemed, gratefully, too massive a job. How lucky have I been? I’ll say, you know who you are, you dear ones!
Obama and Jane for me seriously “jumped the shark” in the past week or so.
I think I need to step off for a while. I hit a tipping point in terms of my sense of moral judgment and endurance.
Sometimes something happens and your own code can’t let it pass. You have to put on a black armband. Or step away from a beloved and fulfilling website out of a sense of “enoughness”. This is not right and even if it is my own modest realm of response, a “response ability” that needs to happen, thank God I have it, and am acting on it. Sometimes it is over something that impacts the whole world. Sometimes it is an assault on the dignity of one or two individuals. Both deserve vigilance and humanist awareness.
It is principles above personalities, of course. We all have our own issues. I have so many. Our higher selves and our lower selves and all those levels in between and life is about bouncing around on that continuum. Trying to stay more often in the “higher self” area. Some of us. And we all have to make our own priorities for tolerance. Not to make the perfect the enemy of the good, of course … which is a popular phrase. Still …
I don’t know what will happen re FDL and me or where I will continue my awakened activism … thanks significantly to this website.
You guys take care! We will catch up. I always wanted when I had evolved more to start a website called “Feelers and Reformers”. Maybe it will happen sooner than I thought.
With much love, libby
((((((libby))))))
The time to jump ship appears to have arrived. For all you have done around here..thank you. Honestly, though, smile…you getting called a troll is kinda funny in a bizarre kinda way. So far from the truth that it sets a record of some sort, I’m sure. Stay..comeback..take a break..do whatever helps you emotionally. If you do decide to start your own site, I and at least one other who have enjoyed late night talks with you, will see you there. If you do leave for good..the words of a song come to mind that will be felt here. “You don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone”. Best wishes ahead of time for a wonderful 2010 to you.
Until you get it up and running, if you want, you can post here
It’s mainly read and written by NoCal populist and progressive types, and there are usually between 50 and a couple 100 online. But, I do know for a fact there are California state legislators who read it, and members of the Sac Bee Editorial Board, and somebody in Arnold Schwarzenegger’s office
Your research has been very valuable to me and I think many, many others. You probably don’t know, but, we’ve been working for SP (and many other issues) for years. Click on the link and go down about 1/4 of the way down on the right side are some links for SP info. And we, along with many other groups have gotten SP bills passed – SB 840 and SB 810 – with only Ahnold standing in the way. And we’ll do it again
Just click on the link. Then click on Website Account. Then New Account. And fill out the boxes and you should be good to go. You might not be able to post right away because of the new software. If you can’t, click on Contact Us and my friend Bill should get to you within a day or two (it’s all volunteers)
If you want to send me an email, it’s frisian320i at hotmail dot com
but I won’t be online again until probably Thursday (Christmas shopping for my daughter)
((((((libby))))))
BTW, check out http://www.correntewire.com/
You may want to blog there. It’s lambert’s site.
Btw, libby. Please feel free to get hold of me when you need to. My e-mail is eisai at comcast dot net. I’m also twittering, when I remember to do that at: http:••twitter dot com / joefirestonephd
@115
snip
snip
Smug.
Forgive me newtonusr. I can think of vaious labels to place on these quotes, but I still don’t see why “smug” is appropriate.
((((selise)))) (((lets))))) (((((BB))))) ((((john)))) — ((((fdl friends))))
you guys are the best… reach me at libbyliberalnyc at gmail whenever! lets I look forward to exploring your other cyber dimensions, and yours, too, john… so glad to hear my research was helpful. Blue, you have taught me so much, and been a role model for courage and truth! selise, thanks so much for the invitation to be in touch! :)
thanks for the contact numbers and websites… a whole new chapter begins, or rather this one EXPANDS! Any other suggestions most welcome.
ty (((ralph))) for the context message, and (((henk)))), “it is what it is for now” … appreciate your loyalty … but don’t jump the shark with the villagers for my sake :) Such a valuable site and you add good passion to it! Am so touched by your indignation on my behalf, though.
ALL YOU GUYS HAVE SUCH SHARP MINDS AND WARM HEARTS!
This quote for us:
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