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This is a quick one. On the Ed Schultz show on August 9th, Jonathan Alter and Michael Kinsley joined Ed to give their views on the Joe Soptic Ad from Priorities USA Action and the Republican reaction to it. Kinsley thinks the Ad is not dishonest, because to paraphrase him closely, when you lay off hundreds of people and take away their health insurance, it’s a matter of statistics, that a certain number of people will die as a result.
Alter says that Romney will repeal the ACA if the Rs pass the legislation, the first week of his Presidency, and that as Michael indicated “repeal equals death. It’s a simple fact.” If you don’t have insurance you won’t get care and thousands of people will die. Kinsley added, if we don’t go through with Obamacare, then there’ll be deaths without panels. And Alter finished: we’re not calling Romney a murderer, but we are saying that if he’s elected, and goes through with repeal, then thousands will die.
Alter and Kinsley think that’s the issue raised by the Soptic Ad and that the reason why the Ad is honest is because it raises that very real issue about the consequences of the decisions Romney made, and those he may shortly make if he is elected. Kinsley goes on to point out that Romney’s decisions made may have been the right ones; but that Romney doesn’t argue that point; and that this fits his pattern with other issues. That is, he runs away from them, tries to bury them, and won’t discuss his actions, his performance, or his responsibility for the results in the public debate. Kinsley labels this pattern of Romney’s “a tic” of his, to which I might add that it is certainly an undemocratic “tic” in someone who wants to lead a democracy.
I think the two of them are right in what they say; but I couldn’t help thinking back to the great health care debate of 2009-2010 and the decisions made by the President and the Democratic Party to take Medicare for All, the public option, and various Medicare extensions to different age groups off the table in the process of arriving at the final form of the ACA. In 2009, the number of annual fatalities due to lack of insurance was estimated from survey data gathered by Himmelstein and Woolhandler at roughly 1,000 per million uninsured. This projected out to about 45,000 fatalities annually before the passage of any reform since 45,000,000 Americans were without insurance then.
When the bill was being debated, I pointed out that passage of it would, making certain assumptions about population growth, and the number of people who would not comply with the mandate, still leave 267,000 fatalities due to lack of insurance by 2019. At the time I doubted that what became the ACA would really insure 31,000,000 people per year as estimated by its supporters and that the short fall plus population growth in the US would still leave that 267,000 to die due to the inadequacy of the bill, and the decision of the President and other Democrats to give up on Medicare for All and take the steps that would have been necessary to pass it, such as using the constitutional option on the filibuster, or just passing it through reconciliation even if it was not deficit neutral.
We are now 3 years into the period beginning with the time when Medicare for All could have been passed by a militant Democratic Party. We are 2.5 years into the period when the Medicare for All Bill could have been made effective. During this period more and more Americans have lost health insurance and a reasonable estimate today is that there are now roughly 55,000 fatalities per year occurring because Medicare for All was not passed when it might and should have been.
In addition, the possibility looks very good that only about half of the 18 or so million additional people expected to be covered under Medicaid will actually be covered because Republican governors are likely to refuse to implement the ACA in their States. This suggests that the previous estimates anticipating 31,000,000 covered by the ACA will shrink to 22,000,000 by 2014 – 2015 and may remain there even if the bill is not repealed.
Continued population growth is likely to produce 60 – 65 million minus the 22 million covered or 38 – 43,000,000 still uncovered by the ACA as we approach 2019. So, it’s beginning to look as if my previous estimate of 267,000 total fatalities may be a substantial underestimate of the fatalities which are occurring and will occur because the Administration passed on Medicare for All.
Kinsley, and Alter and others may disagree with this analysis, saying it was impossible to pass Medicare for All in early 2009. But the proof of impossibility isn’t there. We know that the Democrats had the authority to end the filibuster in January of 2009 if they wished. We also know that if the President had wanted Medicare for All, a majority vote, or a vote of 50 Democratic Senators plus Joe Biden would very likely have given the President what he wished in the Spring of 2009, before there was ever a tea party to contend with, and when the Democrats in Congress were very much enamored of him. There then would have been no tea party and no bailout of the insurance companies, and likely no Democratic defeat in the elections of 2010 at all.
So, Washington villagers like Kinsley, and Alter can claim impossibility all they want. But they cannot prove impossibility. All we really know is that the President and the Democrats did not want to try to pass Medicare for All in the face of Republican and Blue Dog opposition; and that they did not try to do so.
They made that decision, and just as Alter says “repeal equals death” we must also say that the failure to try to pass Medicare for All, as well as the opposition of Republicans and Blue Dogs also equaled and still equals death as long as that failure goes on. Well, guess what? It’s still going on, and thousands of people who might well have lived are still dying and will die in the future, while people like Alter and Kinsley, and Ed Schultz defend the ACA, against repeal, without mentioning that the very best thing that could be done right now by legislators of both parties is to repeal the damned ACA and replace it with John Conyers’s HR 676, enhanced Medicare for All.
And yes, I know they’ll never do it, so no one has to tell me that this alternative is not politically feasible right now. But that question of political feasibility should not prevent us from keeping HR 676 in the faces of Congress and the President, and pointing out persistently and impolitely, that continued rejection of Medicare for All by them equals death for hundreds of thousands of people in the coming years.
(Cross-posted from Correntewire.com.)



49 Comments

I think you misunderstand what happened in 2009-2010. Max Baucus, chair of the Senate Finance Committee controlled what went into the Affordable Care Act. The death panels charges of GOP in their August surprise delayed Congressional action and added some Christmas tree ornaments (like the redundant amendment prohibiting the use of federal funds for abortions), but the Senators who wanted Baucus to budge on the public option. Medicare for All never was on the table; any straw poll of the Democratic caucus would have shown that it was a non-starter with Blue Dogs and a lot of New Democrats–and definitely with those Democrats owned by major healthcare industry employers in their districts. The proof of impossibility is there because of the narrow margin that the POS that was passed got. The Democrats who voted against it didn’t vote against it because it was not Medicare for All.
It’s time to focus on changing the political culture enough so that a proposal of Medicare for All doesn’t get derailed by the “we don’t want socialism” lobby.
The bill that passed did so because most of the industry stakeholders decided that (1) it would take the wind out of health care reform moves and (2) it was constructed in such a way that they might come back later with amendments that would advantage them at the expense of the other stakeholders and the public. The ability to withhold large campaign donations is a powerful force of members of Congress. The 2009 “death panel” bullshit was an industry shot across the bow to make sure they stayed in line.
There are still only these options that will deliver meaningful health care reform: Medicare for All (like Canada) or VA for All (like the UK). The public is slowly beginning to grasp that fact, which is what the debate over the public option and, ironically, the Tea Party “get the government out of my Medicare” BS, accomplished. No doubt the “get the government out of my Medicare” was an attempt to push Medicare Advantage as the replacement for Medicare, but it fizzled because of the absurdity of the slogan.
Members of Congress don’t do things on their own; the only do what they are made to do. The public used to supply that motivation; today it only comes for campaign contributors. That is what we have to fix first. And the campaign contributors do not care about social consequences like the deat of hundreds of thousands of people. It’s the corporate mind–the legal person who is not human.
It’s gonna take more than complaining and voting to get this one fixed.
My exception to your comment is despite Max Baucus, Obama was the president and he drives the debate. He simply had to say no medicare for all or as he kept say even after he cut deals with big pharma, he won’t sign any bill without a public option to Baucus. It’s what I want or no change.
Otherwise I agree with you and lets.
Driving the debate doesn’t mean squat if the members of Congress have made up their minds already before he was inaugurated. And have their own plan that they think they can shove through. Bill and Hillary Clinton were all over dominating the debate in 1993–and Daniel Patrick Monyihan still shut them down cold.
In one sense, I fault the proponent of single payer for not getting “Medicare for all” into the debate until late in the game. And then only in a desperation move to substitute a path to Medicare for All. Prior to the fall of 2009, the framing was consistently “single payer”, which sounds to some folks like “I’m paying for the deadbeats who don’t take care of themselves”. People grasp Medicare for All pretty quickly; the only issue is how it will be financed. But then you are talking about upping the Medicare payroll tax to cover everyone (much lower per person than for Medicare for the elderly) or saying that it will be taken from the general fund as an entitlement appropriation. Which means an increase in taxes of X for a benefit in lower health care costs of Y and access for everybody–which prevent Z amoount per person of cost shifting. You don’t have to explain who pays, how providers are paid, how much they get, or about state exchanges and all the complicated policy terms that will be available.
So the options now with the ACA in place are: repeal all or part and continue the highest per person cost health care in the world, Medicare for All, VA for All, TriCare for All, or you’re on your own. A heck of a lot of conservatives vote with their feet for VA for All.
And if it doesn’t mean squat (not entirely in agreement with you here), then we leave things as they are. Just because your congress is offering up shit, doesn’t mean you have to eat it.
LGID–
” . . . while people like Alter and Kinsley, and Ed Schultz defend the ACA, against repeal, without mentioning that the very best thing that could be done right now by legislators of both parties is to repeal the damned ACA and replace it with John Conyers’s HR 676, enhanced Medicare for All.”
These three dudes are nothing, if they are not Democratic Party (and corporatist) shills. Does ANYONE actually believe that Schultz (or Alter or Kinsley) is a “liberal?” (If so, compared to what?)
C’mon, pleezzzz.
Highly recommended. Mostly, I agree with your analysis, LGID. Thanks for the diary.
Blue
psalongo–
“My exception to your comment is despite Max Baucus, Obama was the president and he drives the debate. He simply had to say no medicare for all or as he kept say even after he cut deals with big pharma, he won’t sign any bill without a public option to Baucus. It’s what I want or no change.”
You nailed it.
See Truthdig Radio analysis (article): “Kucinich Says Obama Got The Deal He Wanted.”
http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/kucinich_says_obama_got_the_deal_he_wanted_20110804#full%20transcript
Blue
No, we don’t leave things as they are. And we certainly don’t defend the pseudo-market provisions of the Affordable Care Act that do not get implemented until 2014. We push forward, as National Nurses United and other groups have, with building the political demand for Medicare for All. Especially in so-called red states. When the political culture changes so that Republicans and Blue Dogs and New Democrats are afraid to vote against Medicare for All, we win. Part of the rhetoric for getting to that point is laying out the options. Harping on the number of dead, unfortunately, does not sway a lot of people unless they credibly believe they might be one of those statistics.
@5
Alter and Kinsley are weathervanes. Schultz has found a career being a shill for the Democratic Party viewpoint in a sea of Republican shills.
As a tactical matter, the verb should be “replace” the ACA with Medicare for All–or “upgrade” the ACA to Medicare for All. (Or VA for all, since retired military conservatives seem to like it so much.)
Re: Kucinich’s comment: I certainly would like more details about how that played out with the ACA. I suspect that some day it will come out.
However, I think Kucinich is talking within the context of the debt ceiling bill result, which was forced cuts if the Supercommittee could not agree. Where Obama clearly did get what he wanted and now has the Republicans in Congress begging for military spending.
In fact, no President gets what he wants when he took office. So I am taking Kucinich’s comments in the context of “got what he wanted” out of the compromises. In that sense, mere passage of any health care reform bill, regardless of content, would be getting what he wanted.
If the Congress had sent Obama a Medicare for All bill, would he have vetoed it? My guess is that he would not have. That scenario didn’t happen because Conyers could not get the votes for his bill and found that out in the early days after the election. And there was not sufficient popular pressure for it. In fact, the pressure was against health care reform in general–and it was astroturfed. Even before we knew that the bill was Romneycare writ large.
Even when there was 60%-70% support for the half-assed pulic option, that support was not distributed evenly over the 435 Congressional District. It did not bend Jason Altmire or Blanche Lincoln or Larry Kissell because there weren’t those 60%-70% majorities among their constituents. Tom Perriello is a good example of this; he supported the public option and tried actively to sell his constituents on it. What he got was having someone cut the gas lines at his brother’s home. In the end he voted for the ACA. And was rewarded with a narrow defeat in 2010 by a candidate who promised to repeal it.
THD–
Agree about the talking heads “trio.”
You say: “Harping on the number of dead, unfortunately, does not sway a lot of people unless they credibly believe they might be one of those statistics.”
You may be right that some folks think this way, but they’d better think twice.
Earlier this year, Mr. Blue was on medical leave for 30 days with severe back strain and pinched sciatic nerve injury (from his company, a multinational corporation). Upon return to work, he was told that had he been required to be out (for medical reasons) another thirty days, company policy would be to terminate him (in other words, 60 days is the limit at this company for unpaid medical leave), and rehire him, if and when he was ready, and medically able, to work.
Believe me, there is no mention of this policy in any human resource policy manual that he’s ever seen. COBRA would not likely be an option, from what I’ve heard, because of the exorbitant cost of the premiums.
So, I suggest that folks wake up out there. Mr. Blue and I have almost every insurance coverage that you can carry–some group, some individual, but clearly, if he were required to undergo a serious surgery that had a recovery period that exceeded 60 days, he and I would just be out-of-luck, and among the uninsured. And, if the premiums for Obamacare are anywhere as expensive as the premiums in the Mass Connector (and yes, I know, that Obamacare premiums are reportedly going to be based on regional COLA data) we’d remain uninsured. The maximum annual salary that “a couple” can receive to be INELIGIBLE for federal subsidies under Obamacare is approximately $46,000. The higher $84,000 plus is for a family of four.
Blue
The more personal stories like yours that get surfaced in the media, the easier it will be for them to start dealing with reality.
Yes, the subsidies in the ACA suck. And they don’t kick in until 2014, if I remember correctly. Plus, getting a subsidy carries the label “poor”, which some people interpret with moral opprobrium. Which is why we need to keep pressing for real universal health care – Medicare for All or VA for All.
You mignt inquire of National Nurses United as to whether your story might add to those they highlight in their campaign for Medicare for All.
Sorry, TD, just don’t see it that way.
My recollection is that polls showed that there was a great deal of support for a Medicare type of health insurance “reform.”
Absolutely, Obama, Baucus, Conrad, etc., etc., out of the box said that it was off-the-table (in spite of the polls). Wouldn’t the President and the Dem Party Establishment have some responsibility to at least try to build support for it, if they really wanted it, and believed that it would be best for the nation? I sure don’t recall anything like that happening.
The reason that the ACA was passed (partly) was so that “a plan” is in place, so that the administration’s raising of the Medicare eligibility age to 67 (or higher) can be justified on the premise that now, folks will have an “option to buy health insurance” on their own, until they are old enough to qualify for Medicare. Never mind that the majority of seniors, probably will not be able to afford any DECENT health insurance through the exchange. And, personally, I consider the “bronze and silver plans” (60/40 and 70/30 percent copays) to be an insult. (Oh yeah, I forgot, with these generous plans, NO ONE WILL HAVE TO FILE FOR BANKRUPTCY BECAUSE THEY CAN’T PAY THEIR MEDICAL BILLS.) Isn’t that what O is famous for saying, on the campaign stump?
He sold out a long time ago (along with most of the rest of our Congress). The uniparty is not the answer–it’s too corrupt. Truly do not believe that it can be salvaged in my lifetime, anyway.
The American people have no leverage at all, once the Grand Bargain is implemented, because there will be even less distinction between the Dems and Repubs. You are aware, I suppose, that a “Grand Bargain” proposal–called Bowles-Simpson 3.0, is to be presented the day AFTER the November election, right?
I’m for fighting, but the fight must be waged now, and furiously. Talk of waiting until after the election is absurd (not saying that it what you are proposing). Others seem to think that we’ll have some magical “leverage” after the election. First of all, I’m not so sure that Obama will even win. But I imagine, that O can actually accomplish eviscerating our social safety net with more ease, than any Republican. (Look at Clinton).
Blue
(Apologize in advance for typos. A bit rushed, now.)
This point is where all the hearts & minds work needs to be done, and we’ve got many rivers to cross.
I understand how economic pressures can encourage people to build fences around what little they have, but the deep fear/anger that someone, somewhere is getting a benefit they didn’t deserve or earn seems so bizarre to me. This seems to be the major political sticking point, and all the insurance companies and their lobbyists have to do is press this button over and over again to get people to work against their own self interests.
I’m with TarheelDem on this one. It’s past time to stop complaining about how Obama turned out to be a corporate tool and a DLC approved Presidential candidate, especially in light of the fact that it was always obvious from the start that’s just what he is. From his support of Lieberman, to his FISA vote to the advisers he surrounded himself with, the only real question is how he so easily managed to fool so many people. I think the answer lies in some Bush fatigue and a little bit of irrational, wishful thinking. Like anthropogenic climate change, it has been conclusively and repeatedly proven that “punishing” the Democrats will result in exactly the opposite of the desired result. Obama’s a corporate stooge. Obama sold us out during the great health care fiasco, I’m 100 percent in agreement on these points. Even for those of us who saw this coming, the experience was and is painful. Vote for Willard if you must, cast a protest vote for Stein or somebody else or sit out the Presidential election but please stop complaining about what Obama did or did not do three years ago. Help change the mindset. Elect local Progressives. Back your Representative into a corner at a town hall by asking pointed questions and pointing out hypocrisies or badger his/her staff with incessant emails. But please stop whining about Obama’s betrayals.
Critically assessing the Obama Health Insurance industry bailout and individual efforts to badger your Representative etc, are not mutually exclusive activities, are they?
Both activities can be part of changing the mindset can’t they?
Petulantly and irrationally telling people to “stop whining” may be cathartic but it’s not very convincing. Rather off-putting actually.
The problem over and over is that national polls don’t show where the geography and demographics of those opinions are. A survey can poll ninety percent in urban areas and show 60% support for something but be totally unworkable in Congress because of the Senate not being based on population. And the Senate was what drove the health care bill. And it was the body that had to get for one shining moment total agreement of the Democratic caucus, including Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln, in order to pass. And then it took a budget reconciliation vote to get the bill agreed to by the House. Baucus, as the key player, was the obstacle. He had gone out and hired the VP-Government Relations for Wellpoint, a private Blue Cross/Blue Shield insurer, to write the legislation almost as soon as the election was won by Obama. That seems pretty pre-emptive. It was his committee that decided on the strange Gang of Six people to draft it in committee, but what appeared for the vote was the Chariman’s draft. That’s pretty much a committee chair’s railroad maneuver.
This is only important because we have to anticipate and close off these sorts of sidelining maneuvers to get responsive legislation. And pretending that the President is all-powerful is one of the ways that Congress avoids responsibility.
I think I remember 2009-2010 very well. I blogged through much of the healthcare debate right here. Anyway, you’re starting far too late in the process. Here’s what I said above:
“Kinsley, and Alter and others may disagree with this analysis, saying it was impossible to pass Medicare for All in early 2009. But the proof of impossibility isn’t there. We know that the Democrats had the authority to end the filibuster in January of 2009 if they wished. We also know that if the President had wanted Medicare for All, a majority vote, or a vote of 50 Democratic Senators plus Joe Biden would very likely have given the President what he wished in the Spring of 2009, before there was ever a tea party to contend with, and when the Democrats in Congress were very much enamored of him. There then would have been no tea party and no bailout of the insurance companies, and likely no Democratic defeat in the elections of 2010 at all.”
The point is that once Obama has Reid get the filibuster in January of 2009, then Baucus just becomes one of the blue dogs whose votes the Ds don’t need to pass Medicare for All. Reid didn’t have to assign the Bill to Baucus’s committee. Or if they wanted to play rough they could have replaced Baucus as the Chair. But had they threatened that, then Baucus would have folded like a cheap suit.
But, generally I agree with the rest of your analysis. My point, however, is that the culture didn’t have to change for Obama to beat it. In January, before he took office he had the power, and once he started making changes such as stopping the move to change the mark-to-market rule, new choices and pathways would have opened up that could have brought cultural change in Washington quickly enough to get what he wanted. The truth is that he and the Ds really didn’t want change.
TD–
I don’t get it. Max Baucus does NOT have more power than the POTUS. Do you really believe this? Kucinich was there, but you doubt his word, that O got what he wanted. I wasn’t there, but I know that MANY articles were written regarding the role that the Administration had in orchestrating the writing of the ACA, and in conducting the many “backroom” deals (pharma, etc.) The administration did not play a passive role.
If O is so helpless and hapless, why would anyone want him to be reelected? This sounds like the Hartmann/Schultz/Papantonio etc., ridiculous “it’s all the people who surround him” theory, which, I suppose, is intended to “excuse” O from bearing any responsibility, regarding the legislation which he signs into law.
Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. As Chief Executive Officer, I hold O responsible for the legislation that he signs. And no one else. I don’t believe for one moment that Baucus did not carry out the President’s wishes. It’s called being a “foil,” must like Rahm “Liberals are F*****g Retards” Emanuel.
Here’s an excerpt, regarding White House role in dropping the public option:
“Emanuel and other close advisers of President Obama have frequently criticized liberals. After the White House instructed Senate Democrats to capitulate to Senator Joe Lieberman’s request that they drop the public health plan option, many liberals denounced the move and demanded that Democrats in turn reject the Senate bill. In response, White House senior staff separately referred to liberals as “irrational” and “insane.” By describing liberals as “fucking retards,” Emanuel is simply towing the White House line in an effort to isolate politically and to show contempt for progressives.”
[From the blog "Dissenting Justice"]
Blue
You do have to distinguish variations in O’s influence over time. In January before he takes office his informal power is at its zenith. The country was desperate then, and he could get anything he wanted. By February, they’ve already got the mark-to-market rule changed. That’s critical because the banks can show paper solvency. So, after that the Feds can’t take them over and destroy their political power. Also he never had Reid get the filibuster in January. So by the time he gets to the stimulus bill he has to beg for R and blue dog votes and compromise the effectiveness of that bill. Its measures have multipliers that are too low, and it’s 50% the size it should be. By early March, he’s not flying anymore, he’s mired in the quicksand of Washington. He’s still very popular, but the banks are already starting to rebound and they can join the rest of the Wall Streeters to work against any reasonable health care bill. Then there’s the CCR bill. It’s bad one and its benefits for regular people are small and not very clear. By the Summer, Congress is fighting over an incredibly complex HCR that Rs can attack as socialism, but that Ds can’t point to and explain why it’s night. By Midsummer, the Tea Party is going full blast, and the rest is history. O needed to get the filibuster, break the political power of the banks, get a stimulus bill twice the size and pass a 35 page HCR bill that anyone could read by late may. That should have been Medicare for All. But he failed to do these things and the result was a very likely failed Presidency. By March of 2010, I was already writing this. It still fits pretty well today.
The proponents of single payer got it into the debate very early. the problem is they ran into HCAN and its substantial funding from rich folks. They propagandized the PO, and Obama took MFA off the table by February, falsely pretending that the PO was very much like it.
Exactly. O has only himself to blame for the failure of his presidency. He’d be a goner if a decent person was running against him.
It’s not just about options. The moral argument is important. That’s what moves people in the end.
Speaking for myself, I’m not complaining. You may notice that I’ve taken pains to point out policy issues regarding the ACA.
I can’t begin to tell you how many people that I’ve actually talked to, who believe that “a person” who makes less than $84,000-$88,000 annually, will qualify for subsidized insurance premiums under the ACA. I am trying to disabuse folks of that notion, however.
My statement that: “The reason that the ACA was passed (partly) was so that “a plan” is in place, so that the administration’s raising of the Medicare eligibility age to 67 (or higher) can be justified on the premise that now, folks will have an “option to buy health insurance” on their own, until they are old enough to qualify for Medicare.”
This is not idle conjecture on my part. Heard Little Timmy Geithner testify to this in a congressional hearing, within the past year. This is the reason that the Administration pushed for the ruling on the ACA. Wanted to include raising the “eligibility age” for Medicare in the Grand Bargain during the lame duck session (when at least the framework and some of the triggers will be passed), and needed to get that last bit of business out of the way, so they could proceed (according to Geithner).
My goal is to enlighten folks about policy (regarding the ACA and Bowles-Simpson). I do not presume to tell anyone how they should vote. However, when I pull the lever in November, you can bet that I’ll bear in mind, that old axiom: “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” :-)
Blue
The Moment of Truth (PDF), (Bowles-Simpson), December 2010
Here’s the link:
http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf
http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf
Hope one of these links work (having a bit of trouble–sorry).
These ads and Obama’s move to “the left” is nothing more than hoping to fool enough traditional Democrats and liberals to support him.
As to health care; Don’t forget. He did nothing when the health insurance committees in Congress threw out single payer advocates, for even wanting to present their proposals. Obama is a conservative who wants to turn everything over to the for profit industries and destroy Social Security.
I clicked on the Ed show…and clicked right off again. It was just Ed shouting over a lot of background noise (music?)
If Ed expects people with older ears to pay any attention he could cut way back on the racket. News is not a rock concert. I guess it is not a problem for young producers, at least those whose hearing has not been damaged already.
Anybody know Ed? Please put the bug in his ear. It’s a wonder they don’t poll for how much folks like the noise.
You may be right about impossibility. But I suffered through this debate during that time and people were saying we had 53 or 54 votes and could do it on reconciliation, etc. But I never became convinced it was possible. Seemed more like wishful thinking to me. Baucus was a roadblock. That was plain to see. When it came right down to voting the whole thing could have gone down. And then what?
But I wonder what purpose is served now by bringing it up? We lost. We need to find another road forward. Now we are faced with repeal. Is that really the best option, along with cuts to medicare and social security because that will happen once Romney is elected. We now have the choice of Bowles v Ryan. Not a good choice. If we insist on fighting the battles of the past, we will lose any chance we might have to influence this fight. BTW unemployment and poverty kill just as deadly as lack of health care, IMO. And it kills the spirit of whole families, even generations. (but I am being dramatic.)
The only things that could be done on reconciliation were (1) matters affecting the budget (Byrd Amendment restriction) and (2) matters that Kent Conrad would let into his Senate Budget Commitee. And if you remember, it was Kent Conrad who was the public face of “we don’t have the votes”, meaning we didn’t have his vote.
Only if Democrats wanted to ensure a future Republican controlled Congress and White House would end Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, the EPA, the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, with promises to pass common sense reform to replace them later.
The only way to end filibuster is to ignore the existing Senate Rules entirely on the first day the Senate begins a session. Hey, at that point, Republicans could declare Democrats have no right to be seated. All disputes within Congress are resolved by Congress itself, so don’t expect SCOTUS to act in support of Democrats.
We are 18 month past the day when “a militant Democratic Party” elected a Tea Party Congress by passing the radical leftist socialist government takeover of the entire health care system using Romneycare built from Dolecare built from the Heritage think-tank plan that had its roots in the Republican Party in 1990.
And the people attacking Obamacare are promising to save SOME Medicare for the future generations and eliminate Medicaid with Ryan’s honest budget plan to eliminate poverty and want.
Funny now that you mention it, I do remember Kent Conrad. And the continuing argument over reconciliation.
Again with the Unaffordable Health law?..
Obama like republicans gives a damn about who is covered by medicaid or not,this is about POLITICS, not about people.Obama pleased his masters ,
Big Pharma and big insurers.Obama’s final goal is the same as Romney and republicans:TAKE DOWN MEDICARE AND SS whatever it takes.
You are presenting a rational, fact-based argument in.re. O’s Gift to the Health Insurance Industry to people who are impeded by partisanship. Obamapologists will argue that O was powerless to implement single-payer or the public option rather than admit that the most powerful man in the USA was co-opted by corporate interests and reneged on another campaign promise. It’s similar to crediting an imaginary omnipotent being for the good in the world and refusing to recognize the fact that the entity is likewise responsible for the bad. It’s an exercise in futility.
The filibuster was never an issue since any bill finalized could have been passed via reconciliation and the Democrats had a filibuster-proof majority — they deliberately chose not to use that majority.
But you make the case: Had they wanted to the Democrats could have passed Medicare for All using their substantial majorities in both houses of Congress. That they went instead with a Republican bill (Nancy Pelosi’s words) written by the insurance industry (Max Baucus’s boast) speaks volumes about where the party really stands. And why we should punish the Democrats by voting Green.
Why bother with MSNBC unless you want Democratic partisanship that’s slightly more fact-based than Fox. If they weren’t just another corporate propaganda machine they’d support something other than the uniparty duopoly of the Corporatocracy.
Right. And then run out to your backyard and blow your brains out.
Book Salon up with Jonathan Caulkins, Mark Kleiman, and Angela Hawken’s Marijuana Legalization: What Everyone Needs To Know hosted by Pete Guither
Thanks, hbb. Good to see you again.
Yeah, it’s sort of discouraging. I’ll be too busy with a project to get “on the boards” for the next week or two (unless I put myself through the painstaking and miserable torture of using a Blackberry, with it’s tiny keys), so I’m all over the place, today.
It is puzzling to me, that you can present articles, videos, white papers, etc., to back up your policy stance, and/or opinion, and it seems not to matter one whit, to some folks.
I’ve noticed that a lot of people are ecstatic over Ryan’s VP nomination. Don’t get that,either. (Which is NOT to say that I agree with him ideologically, at all.) Heck, he’ll have some appeal in some of the rust belt, I’d think. Noticed he harped a lot on the divisive meme of “generational fairness,” regarding Social Security. Think I read that he’s about 43. Looks more like 33 to me (but that could be a reflection of my age, too.). Anyway, I think that they believe that he can stir up (and spout off about) “generational unfairness,” and pick up votes from young people (college age kids, etc.) that Republicans might otherwise, not have gotten. Frankly, I think that they may be right about that.
One thing we do know, “the Republican base” will be thrilled with Ryan’s selection. Compare that to the Democratic Party base fleeing in record numbers to third parties–don’t see how that bodes well for Democrats. But maybe I’m missing something.
Take care–
Blue
Democrats “choosing” to use their filibuster-proof majority required all Democrats to vote on the bill. Max Baucus hired a legislative aide who was VP-Government Relations of Wellpoint for a reason; he was in the pocket of at least the private Blue Cross/Blue Shield end of the health insurance industry. Ben Nelson was a former insurance company executive. It only took one Democratic Senator to bust the filibuster-proof majority because the Republicans worked hard to prevent cross-overs like Olympia Snowe. And the 60th filibuster-proof vote was Joe Lieberman, an independent, and representing the home state of Hartford, Aetna, and Cigna.
Silly person — evildoers shouldn’t be punished. Then we wouldn’t have repeat offenders! /s
By definition, if they are fleeing third parties, they probably are not the Democratic base and never were. I don’t know where progressives got the illusion that they were the Democratic base. That wasn’t true during the New Deal, it definitely wasn’t true during the Truman and Kennedy administrations. Maybe it was briefly true in 1964. It was not true in the Carter administration or the Clinton administration. The Democratic base has until recently been a coalition of independent commercial farmers, labor union members, minorities, pro-choice women, and a smattering of progressives and intellectuals. That coalition doesn’t all think one way.
And we will see whether there are enough fleeing to third parties to actually deliver electoral votes to that third party. My sense is that geographically we are unlikely to see a repeat of Florida in 2000 even with the Republican election shenanigans going on. Where that is a problem for Democrats is in the down-ticket races–Senate, House, governors, legislatures. Unless those folks split tickets and vote for Democrats when there are no third party candidates running.
Blue, glad you checked back in. It’s rather depressing that FDL seems to be inhabited by faux progressives who refuse to adopt objectivity and jettison partisanship, even going so far as to rationalize the “lesser evil” argument, to support Bush/Cheney 2.0. The continued support for the uniparty duopoly system of Kabuki government is what is resulting in the interminable expansion of the security state and the termination of our freedoms. Perhaps these people will wake up when they or disappeared or droned.
It doesn’t really matter if you identify with either corporate party because they both serve the same masters.
TD–
I was a member of the Democratic Party for my entire life, until a couple of years ago. Never missed voting since I became eligible. Also, been a Democratic Party activist for years.
I voted for only one Republican, in my entire life. As recent as Howard Dean’s run, I was heavily involved in Dem electoral politics, belonging not to one, but two chapters of DFA (Democracy For America), organizing, donating money, etc., etc.
Oh, and until this election, I have NEVER cast a third party vote. What on earth would I have been considered, if not a part of the Democratic Party base (I am a Caucasian woman, and even a former union steward for the AFGE–American Federation of Government Employees–AFL-CIO).
Now, I never said that “all, or most” of the base was fleeing. But, IMO, the number of Democratic Party “defections” that I see, on a daily basis, on the several blogs that I either participate in as a blogger or a “lurker” surpasses anything that I have ever seen. (I am now less than two years away from early Social Security retirement age, so I’ve been around awhile.)
I have no idea if the concentrations of these people could have an electoral effect. I was just suggesting that the two parties are going into this election with (as of today) two totally different scenarios, regarding their party bases.
Again, how could I not be considered part (at one time) of the Democratic Party base?
Just wondering. . .
Blue
In January 2009, the economy was in collapse, the bankers were in disgrace, and Obama was at the height of his popularity. He could have done almost anything. He easily could have had a honeymoon period equivalent to Franklin Roosevelt’s Hundred Days or the flurry of activity by which Lyndon Johnson launched the Great Society following his victory in 1964.
Instead, Obama CHOSE to be a lackluster, do-nothing, mediocre president. His fealty to the 0.001% trumped his desire to be a great person in history. There were indications he would do this in the campaign but there was no way to know his sorded choice in advance.
In January 2009, the economy was in collapse, the bankers were in disgrace, and Obama was at the height of his popularity. He could have done almost anything. He easily could have had a honeymoon period equivalent to Franklin Roosevelt’s Hundred Days or the flurry of activity by which Lyndon Johnson launched the Great Society following his victory in 1964.
Instead, Obama CHOSE to be a lackluster, do-nothing, mediocre president. His fealty to the 0.001% trumped his desire to be a great person in history. There were indications he would do this in the campaign but there was no way to know his sorded choice in advance.
In January 2009, the economy was in collapse, the bankers were in disgrace, and Obama was at the height of his popularity. He could have done almost anything. He easily could have had a honeymoon period equivalent to Franklin Roosevelt’s Hundred Days or the flurry of activity by which Lyndon Johnson launched the Great Society following his victory in 1964.
Instead, Obama CHOSE to be a lackluster, do-nothing, mediocre president. His fealty to the 0.001% trumped his desire to be a great person in history. There were indications he would do this in the campaign but there was no way to know his sorded choice in advance.
I have to agree. Obama got what he wanted with ACA, no more, no less.
Hell, bailing out the banks instead of creating jobs will kill people. Staying in Afghanistan will kill people. One can even argue that doing the ACA rather than Medicare for All will kill people.
U.S. healthcare is too damn expensive. It costs 17% of our very large GDP compared to about 10% in each of the other developed nations, i.e., a trillion dollars per years more than it should.
And, it’s not of very high quality healthcare; we rank number 37 out of 190 on the World Health Organization Ranking of Health Systems:
The third column is labeled “expenditure per capita.”
Obama chose to do nothing to significantly shrink this outrageous cost, because the powerful healthcare cartels promised that they wouldn’t contribute to GOP coffers if he’d protect their revenue streams.
Why all the long winded, insightful analysis backed up by facts? Here’s what happened: The sissycrats had the house, senate and oval office but DIDN’T have the balls to use reconciliation to run their agenda down the repukes throat. Game, set, match. Did the shrub along with his GOP lemmings have any trouble getting 2 tax cuts, 2 unfunded wars and a deficit busting pharmaceutical benefit for seniors written by big pharma? I CAN’T HEAR YOU!
According to the Wikipedia article I just read, the WHO ranking system of medical systems has been scrapped because of its controversial methodology. I suspect that in reality, both Costa Rica and Cuba deliver more affordable, available health care to the mass of their populations than does the United States (I was surprised to read in my Almanac that Cuba has a higher average life expectance than does the United States.