Another platinum coin surge in the Second Wave rippled through the mainstream media yesterday and this time hit the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Domenico Mantanaro of MSNBC kicked things off on one of the morning shows by mentioning the Trillion Dollar Coin (TDC) as a possible solution to the debt ceiling problem. Then, in the afternoon, on MSNBC’s the cycle, Krystal Ball, and Steve Kornacke, in discussing the coming debt ceiling conflict talked rather matter-of-factly, I thought, about minting some TDCs to get around the debt ceiling.
Then Paul Krugman blogged about platinum coins. In the context of answering a question about whether we can “print money,” to get around the debt ceiling, he answers no, and then says:
The peculiar exception is that clause allowing the Treasury to mint platinum coins in any denomination it chooses. Of course this was intended as a way to issue commemorative coins and stuff, not as a fiscal measure; but at least as I understand it, the letter of the law would allow Treasury to stamp out a platinum coin, say it’s worth a trillion dollars, and deposit it at the Fed — thereby avoiding the need to issue debt.
An admirably brief statement of the basic idea, but followed then by this puzzler:
In reality, to pursue the thought further, the coin really would be as much a Federal debt as the T-bills the Fed owns, since eventually Treasury would want to buy it back. So this is all a gimmick — but since the debt ceiling itself is crazy, allowing Congress to tell the president to spend money then tell him that he can’t raise the money he’s supposed to spend, there’s a pretty good case for using whatever gimmicks come to hand.
So, it’s gimmicks for gimmicks to get around the debt ceiling, and no notion on Paul Krugman’s part that Platinum Coin Seigniorage (PCS) might have a much broader use than simply countering a gimmick the Republicans are using to try to trash the social safety net and drown the Government in a bathtub.
Apart from that, however, this “. . . the coin really would be as much a Federal debt as the T-bills the Fed owns, since eventually Treasury would want to buy it back” is a bit strange. A very high value platinum coin deposited by the Mint in its account at the Fed would have its value credited to the Mint’s account in the form of electronic credits. The Fed would then keep the coin in a vault forever, as an asset on its balance sheet, and the seigniorage profits from the deposit of the coin would be swept into the Treasury General Account (TGA) where it would be used for repaying debt or other spending appropriated by Congress. So why would the Treasury ever want or need to buy that coin back from the Fed? And why would the coin be a Federal debt that the Treasury must repay?
It’s true that base money issued by the Federal Government is a Federal debt in the sense that the Government has an obligation to accept it in payment of taxes. But in this case, the Fed holds the coin and it has no taxes to pay. Also, the coin never goes into circulation, but sits in a Fed vault, so where does a debt that the Treasury must repay come into this picture and why?
Paul Krugman goes on to make a number of comments about the Fed printing money and the need for the Fed to pull that money back by selling its Treasury debt at some future time when the economy is growing rapidly to prevent inflation. But these comments aren’t directly relevant to using PCS, since using it is no more, and perhaps less, inflationary than using debt financing.
The appearance of PCS in Paul Krugman’s blog apparently had an immediate impact. Congressman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), in an interview reported in Capital New York said:
“There is specific statutory authority that says that the Federal Reserve can mint any non-gold or -silver coin in any denomination, so all you do is you tell the Federal Reserve to make a platinum coin for one trillion dollars, and then you deposit it in the Treasury account, and you pay your bills,”
Well, that’s a little garbled, since it’s the Treasury that orders the Mint to create the coin which is then deposited in the Mint’s account, which is then credited by the Fed with electronic credits because the coin is legal tender, and is then swept by the Treasury for the seigniorage profits which end up in the Treasury Account, and then you pay your bills. But, regardless, Congressman Nadler has the right idea. It is legal for Treasury to make platinum coins with arbitrary face values and to use the seigniorage to pay bills.
In the same interview, the Congressman also refers to invoking the 14th amendment as a way in which the President could justify not complying with the debt ceiling. But, I think, this is not as good a solution as using PCS. The reason why, is that the debt ceiling isn’t unconstitutional as long as Congress has provided alternative ways for Treasury to meet its obligations. PCS is such an alternative, so, as long as it is legal, I think the President is obligated to use it and not the 14th amendment to defeat the debt ceiling constraint.
Mike Sankowski at Monetary Realism, also reviews Krugman’s views and Nadler’s interview and points out that:
I don’t think the coin will be used, but the idea of the coin has now hit critical mass. He’s a congressperson, so he only knows what his aides are telling him. If his aides are talking about it, you can be sure all of the democratic aides are talking about it over drinks. It’s just part of the everyday conversation in the support staff of congress.
Nadler is right – it’s not normally proper to consider such an extreme tactic. It is terrible it had to come to this, but here we are. It would be good if we just didn’t have a debt ceiling at all. Then, it would be so much nicer if the government had a well established, and commonsensical method to allow for the Treasury to print money directly – along with rules on how much and when this could be done.
I think Mike is right about the coin reaching critical mass and now being a topic of conversation among Congressional Staff. Even more, since the coin reference comes from Jerry Nadler, we can suppose that PCS is making the rounds within the Congressional Progressive Caucus (CPC) specifically, and may become a key element in stiffening their spines during the debt ceiling fight. The CPC is much less likely to accept a lousy deal from the Republicans and the President if they know very well that the President can rise above the whole debt ceiling crisis by minting a very high value platinum coin.
Mike Sankowski voices misgivings about the coin. Above he calls it an “extreme tactic” and later on in his post he talks about the problem of giving politicians the power to print money. On the last point, I think the Constitution has already given the politicians the power to “print money.” And it’s a wonder that instead of grasping that power more firmly, they’ve constructed all kinds of constraints preventing them just issuing it.
Until 1971, they constrained themselves with the gold standard. And from then until the present, they’ve constrained themselves by insisting that deficit spending be preceded by debt issuance even though there’s no reason to believe, except the discredited Quantity Theory of Money (QTM), that issuing fiat money in the act of spending is any less or more inflationary if it’s preceded by issuing debt than if it’s not.
Commenter Robert Rice answered Mike’s misgivings about the power to print money, by pointing out that every power of Government is subject to abuse and that this is no reason not to have government and to use its powers for public purpose. And I agree, Mike Sankowki’s misgivings about the “printing money” power are no more than the usual conservative disposition to always mistrust government.
It’s wise to do that, since one must never cease to look gift horses in the mouth. But it’s not wise to let one’s mistrust cripple one’s government and, as a result, arrive at the kinds of conditions we are finding ourselves in right now. After all, what is the debt ceiling legislation itself, but an expression of the same conservative impulse that Mike is voicing? Listening to it is what has caused the mess we’re in. To get out of it, we have go onto a new track. That track is using Platinum Coin Seigniorage as our primary tool when deficit spending.
As for PCS being an “extreme tactic.” I’m afraid, I think that’s just labeling. Wigwam, a blogger at FDL and DailyKos, had this answer for people who label PCS as “weird,” a very similar label to “extreme.” He said:
Such coins are “legal tender” and can therefore be deposited into the Treasury’s General Account at the Fed, from which the Nation’s bills are ultimately paid. Therefore, there is no need for the Treasury to borrow money to meet the obligations of the United States. But, and this is critical, none of that money can be withdrawn except for congressionally appropriated expenditures; e.g., the Treasury cannot monetize the national debt except insofar as such expenditures are appropriated by Congress.
For the past 220 years, the Treasury has been paying a portion of each year’s expenditures via the markup (seigniorage) on the minting of coins — last year coin seigniorage covered about 1% of the tax deficit — Abraham Lincoln went even further and paid for the Civil War with printed fiat money (“Greenbacks”), as did the European powers to finance WW I, and as did Germany to finance its part in WW II.
All of the above is background to keep in mind the next time you read a financial/economic pundit declare that it would be “weird” for the Secretary of the Treasury to exercise his powers under 31USC5112(k) and recommend that he instead foment a constitutional crises by directly violating 31USC3101(b), which I think would be “weird” at best.
And further, how much “weirder” or “more extreme” is it for a government with a sovereign fiat currency system to deficit spend only after it borrows back its own currency, than it would be for that same government just to forget about borrowing and paying interest to rich investors and foreign nations on what it can create in unlimited quantities itself. In short, what we’re doing now is a lot more “weird” and “extreme” than just using existing legal authority fill the public purse to spend what Congress has already appropriated.
Cross-posted from New Economic Perspectives.
Photo in the public domain.




153 Comments

I’m getting a little sick of Paul Krugman’s psyche. He goes right up to the ledge of real progressivism, then backs down, then goes closer, then attacks Obama, then partially retracts his criticism, then calls for a public option in health care, then says we don’t really need a public option because Obamacare is great, and on and on and on, ad nauseum. He’ll never be a real liberal/leftist (despite the caption of his column, “The Conscience of a Liberal” because he wants so much to be part of the establishment, and has gained huge success doing so. But he also wants to be seen as a “good guy” liberal. But he’s really not. Remember that he studied economics in the 1970s when there was a real, thriving academic radical economic movement, but he never became a part of it and indeed, has remained either oblivious and hostile to it. And that is why he can accept neither the validity of the $1 trillion platinum coin nor Modern Monetary Theory in general.
Hey professor. I’ve been reading your posts and they are excellent. I am new to FDL but if you’d be so obliged, check out my first diary post on the Platinum Coin. I’ve been ruminating about ways in which the Executive Branch might be able to use the profits from platinum coin seignorage for purposes of achieving full employment without needing an appropriation from Congress. Let me know what you think.
LGID, I’ve been following your PCS posts as best I can (and I also read Krugman, but don’t share Caleb36′s distaste for him). I am an economics “dunce” so there’s a lot about it I still don’t understand.
Why don’t you write to Paul directly and see if he will engage in a discussion about this with you?
Thanks. Excellent. Rec’d.
I have several points to make and spread them over separate comments.
And a further thought…Barack Obama hasn’t done anything yet that could be called bold or unconventional. What hope is there that he would do so this time?
First I want to respond to this from Mike Sankowski, as quoted above:
So, minting money is “extreme,” while printing money is “commonsensical.” What the fuck difference does it make, whether the monetary token in made of paper or platinum. Do you quibble about the kind of paper that your paycheck is printed on? Do you worry about whether the bank deposit that backs your paycheck was made with bank notes or coins? What difference does it make?
The only difference that I can cite is the fact that the the U.S. Constitution explicitly gives Congress the right “to coin money.” It says nothing about “printing money.” So, by the measure, coining (minting) money has more legal basis in the Constitution than does the printing of money. And, note that the only U.S. entity that gets to print money is the Fed, which is arguably not fully a part of the government.
Please, everyone, let’s get this nonsense out of our heads once and for all. Platinum is just as good as paper for issuing fiat money. There’s nothing “weird” or “extreme” about the medium.
Also note that nearly every economist believes that the government has a proverbial printing press with which to print money to pay its bills. But, in fact, the Fed is prohibited from paying the government’s bills with the money that it issues. So the only thing that we have that approximates that proverbial printing press is the U.S. Mint.
Here are such quotes from four well-known economists.
On April 9, 2011, Alan Greenspan appeared on Meet The Press:
And, on November 21, 2002, Greenspan’s successor-to-be, Ben Bernanke, told the National Economists Club in Washington, D.C. that:
And, April 21, 2011 at 10:57 am, Paul Krugman wrote in his blog:
And, on April 18, 2011, per David Lindorff, James K. Galbraith burst out laughing on hearing about the S&P announcement that they were considering downgrading the U.S. government’s credit rating: “They did what?” Galbraith went on to say:
Links to the originals can be found here.
Also, I want to add that we have been paying a portion of each years budget with the siegniorage (markup) on the coining of money for the past 220 years, ever since the founding of the U.S. Mint in 1792. Last year that amounted to roughly $10 billion, roughly one percent of the budget deficit.
So, paying bills with the markup on coins is very “old hat,” the only thing that “extreme” here is the amount of money involved. But, this is the first time that the alternative of borrowing will have been blocked, if the GOP makes good on its threat and Obama, for the first time, doesn’t cave.
Krugman and other economists often refer to currency as a liability of the government, and I’ve been wondering with which would the government repay that debt. Then I ran across this article by William F. Hummel on the debt/credit theory of money.
The idea is that money is simply an IOU that’s transferable, redeemable, and denominated in some amount of some unit. The key here is “redeemable.” It simply means that if Alice give Bob one of his IOUs for say 50 dollars, he must mark-down Alice’s debt to him by 50 dollars.
But, as you point out, the Fed is never going to owe the Treasury $60 trillion in taxes. That’s where transferable comes in: In principle, the Fed could take that coin out of its vault and buy $60 trillion in credit default swaps on the open market. And, then AIG could present that coin to the Treasury to buy back its stock and prepay it taxes for a few years. Note that I said “in principle.” ;-)
I recently skimmed Warren Mosler’s treatise on money and he seems to take a somewhat similar view. But I really need to study it more.
This may kill the Platinum Coin option for this round of debt-limit chicken:
Per 31USC5112(k):
So, no Secretary of Treasury, no platinum-coin option. And, of course, the GOP can forestall the confirmation of a new Secretary of Treasury indefinitely.
Obama is a one-trick pony. He pretends to cave in order to get what he really wants.
He really deserves an Oscar for his performance in the role as “The Great Capitulator.” Jane Hamsher has had his number on that trick since mid-January 2009. And she watched in slow motion as he killed the public option without getting his fingerprints on the corpse. Obama is very good at his one trick.
Then he has to act fast!
I can’t get my brain around this method of handling the debt. Seigniorage, as I understand it occurs as the result of the difference between the face value of a coin and the cost of producing it. So, if I buy a set of 25 cent coins which include a coin for each state, for $14, and never use them, seigniorage occurs. If I spend them, it doesn’t. So then, who is paying the 1T for the $1600 coin?
Superb stuff, as always, letsgetitdone, thank you, and it is both wonderful and appropriate to find you on the front page.
Your long-term leadership around this issue is much appreciated.
Krugman’s timidity is precisely what gives him “standing” and “credibility” among the Right Crowd.
Recommended.
That comment @6, wigwam, is priceless. And your thoughts and leadership around this and other aspects of understanding “economics” are also much appreciated.
However, those of you revealing truth are all making it very hard on poor ole Barack as you make his dire narrative the foolish nonsense it most certainly is, and you are removing all of his “cover” … that the naked truth of emperor and empire might too readily be seen, even by those who have their partisan hands covering their eyes … Krugman is, just now, beginning to peek through his fingers and he sees a possible “whimp” and “gimmicks” …
DW
Giving the president the “power of the purse” scares the shit out of me. IMHO, he close enough to being an emperor already.
Article 1 Section 9 Clause 7 is one of the most important parts of the Constitution:
There have been previous attempts to circumvent it, e.g., the Iran/Contra scandal under Reagan.
So it was planned that way? Timmy gone, no platinum coin.
I saw another story on Bloomberg. Ok to mint the coin but should buy them back after debt ceiling is raised. And should eliminate the authority to do it again in the future if debt ceiling is repealed.
Thanks to all for this education though I can never fully wrap my head around economic info…I think that may be a survival tactic so I don’t get too depressed.
I think what is truly “weird” is all the talk of the “recovery” and “job creation” and the glee in DC of increasing job numbers, even while those jobs are shit wages with no benefits, and how the hell is the economy that is made up of 70% consumer outlay supposed to support the country given the amount of income taxes generated by shit wages? And especially “weird” that given all the above, let’s lower social services and raise retirement age, and charge those elders ever-more for their skyrocketing health costs. Bring on that platinum coin, and hurry up about it!
Ahh but that cave is an art. He’s perfected it over the last four years. Expect it to happen again.
Ah, but do you not imagine, bluedot12, that if Obama throws a few bones, say supporting marriage rights for all, and he tut-tuts the rabid right for their, certainly, outrageous assaults on women that he will be forgiven all of his craven cavin’?
I would, as a niggle, suggest that it is “craft” and not “art” which struts on the stage … masquerading as “substance” and “adult behavior”, these days … the sound and the “fury” signifying but little, though the media will hang on every nuance (remember when “we” didn’t “do” that?) that might be divined.
If the people “get” the politicians that they “deserve”, then one shudders to think what the next act might be.
“Step right up, folks, and behold the lesser weevil, guaranteed to astound and amaze you, to enthrall your interest and begger your imagination, to test your mettle, and bless your soul. Vote now! It behooves you to do so, before it is too late, lest the greater weevil emerge triumphant.”
(This message was brought to you by money … and it approves.)
DW
The answer seems to be:
There is no answer. It’s all voodoo.
I agree that Krugman is a valuable writer in that, based on his vast knowledge of Keynesian economics, he insists that austerity during a depression is wrong. Thus, his book, “End This Depression Now!” is excellent. But why has he drawn no conclusions from the fact that that this book has been absolutely ignored by the political and economic establishment? He is an economist but not a political economist– there is something within him that prevents him from grasping the paralysis which is now at the heart of American politics.
The game is:
Who’s on First?”
Not sure it helps to cite Germany financing its part in WW II. Getting paid twice per day so that your money has some lunchtime value before your shift ends isn’t appealing.
Maybe we should start hoarding camera lenses!
Did they give any reason why it should be bought back and with what?
What is it about borrowed money that so fascinates the financial types worldwide? And, why are they so fearful of government issued money?
I’ve looked for precedents of economies that worked well on fiat money. All of the examples that I’ve found have been war time economies, where the government operated on fiat money out of necessity, but went back to borrowing as soon as the war was over:
* The U.S. during the Civil War (greenbacks).
* Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945.
* Most European governments during WW I. (It had been predicted that WWI would last only one year for lack of funds to finance it for longer.)
I think you’re confusing Nazi Germany with its predecessor, the Weimar Republic.
The Wikipedia has an interesting item on Germany’s astoundingly fast recovery from the Great Depression:”
So Germany’s recovery financed by government-issued (fiat) money occurred within three years, while our recovery financed by borrowed money required at least another two years.
He should not buy them back and he should not give up his right to mint them, IMO.
P.S. They seem to think this authority was really only ment to be for commemortive coins only and, besides, the Pres should not have power to monetize debt. I mean after all, he could get carried away with it all.
This does suggest he better use it now before Congress takes the right away from him.
In essence, so far as I know, the Fed buys it from the Treasury at face value and pays for it the same way that all banks buy any financial asset: they put the asset into their inventory and debit the inventory’s account; and then they credit the seller’s account for the same amount. The Fed’s books then balance, but there’s no new money in the money supply until the Treasury starts issuing checks against that credit and they get cashed. (There are some intermediate steps that I’ve left out both because I don’t know that so all that well and because they are not essential to understanding how this works.)
This from the New York Fed might be of interest:
The question is, comrade, why would MMT’ers be excited to get the approval of fraud Krudman? Hmmm?
That’s why LGID recommends minting and depositing a $60-trillion coin, giving the Treasury enough funds to cover the deficit for a few decades. My suggestion has been that the Treasury commemorate/celebrate the passage of each appropriation bill by minting a coin to cover that expenditure. (Opposite ends of that spectrum.)
It is unlikely to happen anyway, Comrade. You know the Pres hasn’t got the, what do you call them, balls, to do anything about it. Besides congress in their wisdom will shortly do away with the right before long. Most seem to think this whole thing is just a joke.
I’m holding out for $100 Trillion. But I’m not holding my breath.
Double entry writ large?
The 64-bit word in the modern computer allows for more than enough zeros.
Besides, the Pres would have a harder time explaining why he cut SSMM if you take the debt limit excuse away.
You are close. The Treasury mints the 50 quarters at a cost of $4. You pay $14 for them. Seignorage is the difference, $10.
Krugman is a celebrity who reaches a vast and influential audience. When Krugman talks about it, the entire financial/economic punditry takes it seriously, even if they disagree with him.
Yes, but does Bill Gross?
I defer to you.
1.85×10^19
I didn’t know the numbers but I knew it would compute.
Thanks!
(Still seems like voodoo to me! Almost voodoo anyway!)
But the debt is useful as leverage againt the safety net. So who would want to retire it? Except dirty hippies, of course.
Thanks. I was curious but lazy. ;-)
Ah, comrade Starbuck, it is more voodoo, but that is not the best answer.
The coin is just a game to out-loophole the fed so la peuple can get the power of deficit spending back in their hands. It’s a scam on you, hoping you’ll believe that conmen (the money powers) will be out-conned. A legal trick.
And maybe, when enough crapitalist carnage has been wrought, the drooling money powers will turn to the KC Crew and say, “You know, professors, thank you for keeping your brilliant idea before our scatterbrained selves. We see the light now!” And so the new fraud acquits the old. I.e. the money powers and the KC Crew are just passing a technocratic joke and la peuple are supposed to believe some brilliant reconciliation has occurred.
Back to detail, no seigniorage is lost if you spend your coin. And nobody pays for the $1T coin; it’s just a legal dodge for those who demand to know why the government didn’t borrow the trillion.
Will smug professors outwit the “anarchic” money mafia? They are certainly outwitting you, comrade.
Here’s the current headline at HuffPo:
Congratulation, letsgetitdone, you did it!
Well, that congress of vicars has no credibility. So what exactly do you gain except more twats twittering?
They are certainly outwitting you, comrade.
At almost every turn.
Almost.
Sigh! This all really got under way with the formation of the Bank of England in when? 1694, preceded by the Dutch? 300+ years of voodoo?
Here’s some relevant text from that article:
Now the treasury has to get it done?
If there is no Secretary appointed, how does that affect the entire monetary operations?
We really need to get the approval of those financial geniuses: Rick Santelli and Bill Gross. Not looking good on that front. Heard Gross say something like this being a joke.
I think you’ve described a rather important fly-in-the-ointment.
If the Platinum coin is legal tender, then using it to pay off the FED is just taking one loaded-gun out of their hands, and exchanging it for another.
What’s to stop the FED from doing exactly what you describe, which would put the ‘real’ economy in danger in much the same way that the Big Banksters have been doing for the last few decades?
OTOH, if we pay off the debt to the Social Security Trust Fund by buying back it’s bonds with the coin, at least we can predict the rate at which the money will enter the ‘real’ economy as it is payed out gradually to retirees.
I seem to remember an old saw that went something like;
“If you owe the bank a $Million, you’ve got a problem, if you owe the bank a $Billion, the bank has a problem.”
So why are our politicians trying so hard to convince us that our $16 trillion debt is ‘our’ problem when it’s obviously the problem of those we owe?
The answer is obvious, ‘our’ government is on the side of our creditors, and is working against us, and for ‘them’.
Obama wants this debt ceiling fight, he wants this kubukey theater . He needs a reason to cut SS , medicaid, medicare and other entitlements for the poor. It’s all part of the act ,not just for him but for all the democrats.
Yep.
Exactly. People who castigate Obama as being weak or (insert favorite adjective here)don’t understand:
He’s doing exactly as he is being told to do, by his board of directors, not the people who elected him.
(“Kabukey theatre”! Wonderful misspelling!)
How big, like diameter, will this coin be? What happens if someone steals it? Oh shit. Maybe ought to issue it to the fed and the fed only. Then only Ben can steal it.
Well, here’s a naysayer for you.
Shorter Kevin Drum: It can’t possibly be legal. And, oh yeah, IANAL.
Drum is operating on misinformation. 31USC5112(k) was passed in 1996. If I understand correctly, what Drum quotes is discussion surrounding a 2000 correction to a typo in the original wording.
Well, I guess that confirms that he’s not a lawyer. ;)
Ooo shiny!
I think Alice would feel right at home in this Fantasy World we inhabit. Our reality has become so warped that seemingly sane people think that Magic Solutions are reasonable and prudent.
Money used to represent something real like work, property or goods but now it’s like Fairy Dust to be sprinkeled liberally over the masses to blind them to the rot and corruption our system has created.
Our government has radically changed since 9/11.
Cicero, two thousand years ago, warned that “In times of war, the law falls silent”
Being in a self-perpetuating war may not be so unrelated to the filthy rich having their way with us. The debt ceiling is an excuse to move us farther to the right. The coin, if doable, isn’t in the script.
You know what’s kinda creepy for me? It’s the fact that cuts to Medicare & Medicaid (and SS, too, for that matter) will kill people. That’s what reduced access to medical care means. It means people who could benefit from treatment will sicken and die. And O knows that as do the rest of the Democrats. And they don’t care.
Also, they continue to ask for money.
THis may be a silly question but……..whose face do we put on the coin?
This coin is catalyst for more capitalist fraud.
Comrade, wake from your slumber. Capitalism is genocidal.
Mosler’s mug. He’s at the center of the universe, didn’t cha know?
Fucking loony tunes.
This platinum coin has a value that is entirely imaginary.
Alfred E. Newman
If this idea really is reaching some critical level of acceptance, or even awareness, in Washington, then I’d look for any debt ceiling deal to include a restriction on PCS to the token sums it was apparently originally envisioned for.
The PCS route is neither a joke, nor a purely technical work-around: it is a step toward a radically different financial world in which the benefits of the monetary system can be broadly shared rather than monopolized by Wall St. and the City of London.
Therefore, while debt-ceiling extortion by the loonies (n.b. not the Canadian coins) in the House GOP may make Wall St. uncomfortable, PCS will be seen by them as an existential threat: the equivalent of curing a blister by amputating both legs.
Why fucking waste our time with your fucking “existential threats”. PPCS is financial wingnut jimcrackery. Warren Mosler, sheet.
Your putting your faith again in technocratic dipshits? Can you please deport to planet Doofus, immediately?
I once asked an economist if he knew how many economists that it would take to screw in a light bulb– I said three, because at least two of them would have to bite my ass.
Sorry if I wasted your time. :)
Two interesting quotes form comments above:
And
Where have you folks been for the past four decades. We left the gold standard behind in 1971, and the dollar has represented the same thing ever since — its simply a transferable tax credit. U.S. taxes have to be paid in dollars, which creates a demand for them. And since most everyone in the U.S. has to pay taxes, they offer up their assets and services for dollars. The Treasury issues a few dollars each year — $10 billion last in 2011. Banks, including the Federal Reserve, issue dollars (freshly created out of thin air on the spot by incrementing a number in a computer) in exchange for securities (e.g., IOUs), and the U.S. government accepts checks drawn against those dollars in payment of taxes.
Most of our money comes from banks and:
Bank money, which you’ve used most of your lives and thought nothing of it, is imaginary and is Fairy Dust. By comparison, a coin is extremely concrete is a physical material object. Most coins have face values that are less than the value of the materials they’re made of but they are at least tangible. Paper money is worth far, far less than its face value.
So, what’s so fucking weird about a platinum coin whose face value exceeds its material value a bit more?
LOL! Heidi Moore at the Guardian doesn’t even reckon the coin hits the level of good satire, cuz not only is it a whim of bored bloggers (version 2.0), but it’s FRIVOLOUS to boot!
Well shit, then. Let’s make a precious coin out of popcorn. We’ve already burned up all that full faith and credit.
Please, no personal attacks on MyFDL. -MyFDL Editor
Don’t get so uptight. Ain’t gonna happen anyway.
If the government can finance itself without putting itself into debt to big Wall St. and City players (debt which is itself marketed through those same crooked banks, and these days can be purchased by them with free financing from the Fed), I think the plutocrats would take notice. And in pretty short order take action.
And according to letsgetitdone, current law allows it.
I’m not saying it’s going to happen. To the contrary, it has no chance of happening precisely because it’s a radical idea, not just a gimmick, and thus a threat to the status quo beloved of Wall St.
If you want to lay off the insults for a moment, and explain where I am in error, I’d appreciate it.
The main obstacle to this is that the look of the coin must apparently be determined by legislation, and there’s no way the Republicans in the House would approve this.
Where does it say that? I’ve seen Mike Norman’s claim that Kevin Drum said that Warren Mosler said that Genevieve at the Treasury said something along that line, but wasn’t able to follow that trail. Sigh!
Ok
Got to the second blockquote and stopped
Why do they need to buy it back?
and secondly …
I’m just a moran when it comes to this but, it’s a all a gimick. (sorry to shout but …) IT’S ALL FIAT MONEY ANYWAY! And, you want to talk about gimicks? Let’s start a conversation about the biggest sleight of hand of all
And it’s not just some dumb guy like me who thinks things need to change (think: IMF)
Kinda late to realize that, pardner.
Now watchu doin heare wastin evrybodies time fo?
It’s easier than you think — put Reagan on it
They lurvs everything Saint Ronnie
Just to be clear, per 31USC5112(k):
Hi John. I agree and posted something along that line. IMHO, Krugman is being obtuse about this.
Well shit, hoss, if they’re not gonna buy it back then whose gonna buy this piece of shite?
Comrade, you’ve got it! It’s such a gimmick, comrade, that even it’s priests are making a gimmick of themselves. Follow the logic, comrade. The “conservatives” pull gimmicks, then we pull gimmicks, and in some other fucking space-time continuum everything will work out.
Eeep. Eeep. FUCKING BONKERS. Eeep. Eeep. FUCKING BONKERS…
Dunno where this fits in the debate, and don’t know the intricacies, but there’s also JFK’s Executive Order 11110
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=59049
Which allowed the Treasury to print money based on silver
Calling Planet Home … come in Planet Home … we have an emergency on Earth … the entire brainspace is in hallucination … awaiting orders. GET ME THE FUCK OUTTA HERE.
Ah, but it’s an organized hallucination, comrade!
No. It’s monstrous. Get me the fuck out.
The rest of this post is interesting and informative, but this part just made me want to pull my hair out:
Yeah, the CDC is going to go to the wall in defiance of their own party leadership and the Very Serious People. Because that would be like totally in character for them.
And we know this because one member of Congress made a passing reference to the coin idea. Didn’t endorse it mind -didn’t even suggest he would consider endorsing it- just mentioned it.
Oh yeah, and Obama is really a closet progressive whose apparent imminent sellout on the debt ceiling is actually a supersophisticated game of 11 dimensional chess played against clueless opponents. Ok that part is actually true, except the clueless opponents he’s playing against are the left wing of his own party.
Look people the progressive agenda is going to stay stuck in neutral until progressives are willing to let go of their illusions regarding the Democratic party and the interests it serves. It’s beyond pathetic that in spite of the overwhelming evidence of the last four years there are still many progressives who desperately want to believe that there is a significant constituency of fellow travelers within the congressional party who are prepared -wait for it, it’s bound to happen any day now!- to choose convictions over political expediency. (Would you believe that many of these same people claim to value reason and empiricism? The irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife).
The most you’re ever going to get from the CDC is empty gestures like Congressman Nadler’s completely non committal off the cuff remark. The Democratic establishment knows that like a beaten dog their base is so starved for attention they’ll gratefully gobble up any scrap thrown their way in the desperate if forlorn hope that it may indicate that better days are just around the corner.
Empty gestures are cheap and they serve their purpose as long as they keep the base quiet for another day or another week.
Ah, a but it is so beautiful, comrade. Study it.
No, then it is a monster of beauty! Instead it’s like a monster of Frankenstein, only self-made. Can’t you see its horror, it’s monstrosity squared! They’re all turning into intellectual trapeze artists down here!
There’s gonna be an explosion. Get me the fuck out.
You have passed the test, comrade.
You are hereby promoted.
This has been a secure conversation.
lets,
thanks for a great post.
Recommended (FDL)
Tweeted
Recommended (FB)
Short, very accessible read on money and shortages with a nice green twist at the end. The Fable of Moral Arithmetic
Ludwig, you’re the greatest. I think you need your own TV talk show. Ben Bernanke should be your first guest. The full 90 minutes.
Thanks LEL, I’m not a Professor, just a Ph.D. I’ll be happy to check out your post.
Go then. Please. You have added zip to the discussion. Comrade.
I don’t know what format we would use. Paul can always come here, or my other sites to comment. I’ve done him the courtesy of going to his. So, it’s not as if they’re isn’t any precedent for that. More generally, however, I don’t think Paul has exhibited an honest intention to engage with MMTers. Maybe when we gain a little more ground he’ll have some motivation to debate.
Thanks wigwam for the help!
Nice post again Joe
Can you tell me what you think about my comment at 84? If it has any relevance in this debate
Thanks
MMT ers are the type of people who lose arms in faulty wood chippers. Instead of turning off the machine to accurately assess the problem, they want to tweak the machine and feed it different types of wood while the machine running full bore.
Why would the Fed take it out of its vault, since it can always generate the money it needs out of thin air? In addition, why would it buy CDSs, how do they relate to its mission? Finally, who would have enough money to accept the $60 T coin and give the Fed credits in return. It’s really not feasible because the Fed is at the apex of the monetary system. It’s true that currency is debt-based money. But what does the Treasury owe? Either release from tax liability, or redemption in other fiat currency. If the Fed wanted to return the $60 T coin, what could it get in return. Answer: another $60 T coin. That’s the sole obligation of the Treasury.
Obama can appoint an Acting Secretary, so no problem!
He is. That’s why I’m doing my best to get PCS out there. I want people to know he screwed entitlements when he could have avoided any cuts to them!
That’s not how it works. It doesn’t matter whether you spend them or not. The seigniorage is realized when one buys a coin with a face value of $100, and the mint’s cost for producing it is $1.00.
Thank you, DW. I’m glad you’ve seen it so clearly and pay such close attention to wigwam and I.
Crackle, crackle. It’s cryptograpy. You can’t see the message, you’ve got to think it. Please do not speak for all clever people. Comrade, molly.
I agree that: “No money shall be drawn from the treasury but in consequence of appropriations made by law …” But, it’s important to emphasize that PCS is not about doing this. It’s about filling the public purse, but only drawing money out that has been appropriated.
Yes, Josh Barro’s post. Silly post silly trade: give something, get nothing we need, since we have the PCS capability!
I think an “adult” would stop posturing and just go ahead and mint the $60 T coin and stop the nonsense!
First rule of con-manship: Whatever you do, just keep talking.
It’s not the approval. It’s the attention. K talks about the TDC, then we get read about PCS. We’re interested in spreading our views, so we’re excited Paul is giving us attention. For the same reason, we were excited when he critiqued MMT.
hu·bris
/ˈ(h)yo͞obris/Noun (in Greek tragedy) Excessive pride toward or defiance of the gods, leading to nemesis.
Fools. These gods are not their gods.
That’s one reason. The other is that I want there to be enough money for the Treasury to pay off the national debt so we never have to talk about it again and hear about what a burden it is on our grandchildren. The key here isn’t the economics. It’s the politics.
See above.
Not voodoo; just fiat. Since 1971, we have a fiat currency system. That means the Government says what the coin is worth in the unit of account, dollars That’s all!
You too wigwam; and all our other folks who kept this alive to get it mainstreamed. Now the problem will be to stop the right from grabbing hold of it. They are trying right now. We need to get the progressives to wake up!
What happens when you coin the debt, comrades? You hedge it. Who wins the hedge? The people who will exploit inside knowledge of decay will be rewarded. Those compradors will be remunerated for their allegiance.
And so it is not a system which attracts psychopaths. It is a system to convert people to psychopathy.
The nation entire is to speculate on – to feed the compradors who’ll manage the collapse.
What else does a crapitalist do when there’s no more growth?
If you’re hoping for wizards to invent fusion, these wizards are betting against you.
And they’re king.
That petition is the creature of the conservative TDC people. What they want to do is avoid Republicans throwing the country into default. They’re not interested in saving entitlements, extending them, or funding progressive deficit spending. They’re business people looking to save Wall Street. Josh Barro is writing for Bloomberg. What he wants is for the TDC to be used to prevent a global collapse and then afterwards the capability for PCS to be traded away in return for abrogation of the debt ceiling. This would further institutionalize debt financing of deficit spending and maintain the status quo of growing national debt which has made Pete Peterson’s Fix the Debt groups so effective in fighting progressive legislation. The TDC idea is new. But limited to TDC it will only have uses that do something for the 1%. So, don’t sign that petition, sign this one instead. This Post is here at FDL too; but it’s always harder for me to find the link here.
They live.
You die.
Paul Krugman is the John the Baptist of “pop” economics and Mosler is waiting for his turn to bathe in the river Jordan and be called the anointed one, much like Keynes.
Resource based economy is the only economy humans should concern themselves with not this monetary-market bs that is in the end one giant pyramid scheme being played on the powerless.
MMT does nothing to avert the problem of massive mindless consumption and the depletion of natural resources.
Beware.
Precisely so, letsgetitdone, were an end to the nonsense of “debt”, a consequential end to the looting of the nation, and a serious solution to economic feudalism actually sought.
By now, it must be abundantly clear, to any and every human being with a functioning brain and the ability to reason, that the political class of the United States of America, which includes the media, has NO intention, whatever, of behaving in a way that would serve the actual interests and genuine needs of “the people”, neither, it is also crystal clear, does the political class have any intention of changing its ways, in fact, there is less effort expended every day to hide or even disguise the blatant deceit and avarice which that class exhibits in service to the monied elite.
The only question, regarding that “service”, is how much longer the rapacious elite and their political servants may be able to plunder and pillage?
The real question for everyone else is this: What do we intend to do about the plundering and pillaging and those who condone and permit it, those who swear an oath to protect the nation, civil society, and “the people”?
It is not governance we witness, but systemic abuse hidden under the pretense of “democracy”, and the intentional and deliberate destruction of the Rule of Law, of civil society, itself.
Great post and great thread, letsgetitdone, well done!
And thank you, again, for patiently teaching, encouraging considered thought and consistently and persistently pointing out the importance of moral compass.
DW
Wise advice, always, Ludwig.
Always, as well, a pleasure to read your well-considered comments.
DW
Ah, it is worse, comrade. It not only does nothing about those capitalist fantasies. It eats them. It feeds upon itself and so consumes its hosts – those most infected by the decaying system. MMT is a mind-virus to further immobilize the prey in order to feed the system’s metamorphosis.
That’s not something I’m advocating. Rather that’s something that can be done, in principle with any form of “money” under the notion of “money as debt/credit.”
This is a very big day. And, it’s been almost exactly two years since beowulf published the initial article here.
Beware of the lesser evil. What better disguise for evil?
Religions and magical thinking go hand in hand. Magical coins are going to keep the murders and thieves at bay!? Why not magic beans instead? Or make toilet paper into money?
First, get multiple opinions, match, and prioritize.
Produce T-cells in accordance with priority.
Hunt.
Exactly, comrade. Because they’re not shiny. Magical coins will keep the prey at bay longer.
The crapitalist virus wants you for dinner.
“The prey at bay” yes it would seem that in order to keep the sheep docile they must be fed a steady diet of economic bull shit and false platitudes of hope.
Recommended and commented
Frauds of hope, comrade. And to each his own fraudulent hope. To the libby’s, O’Bummer. To the compradors, prey, of limited supply. To the “progressives”, magical coins.
Have a valiant new year, comrade.
And to you as well.
The Fed can’t use the coin for anything. It’s not in their mandate!
Small 1 oz. coin.
I thought that was a terrible piece. Nothing but labeling, name-calling, and ad hominem. And ignorant to boot. That’s a Wall Streeter I think!
Turns out that this is contradicted by the US Mint official who wrote the most current laws concerning coinage:
Who says? The language of the legislation in 31USC5112(k) is plain, and it gives the Secretary discretion to specify various aspects of these coins including the images. The coin is getting very hot now. So all kinds of mainstream people are looking at it. But they’re just doing village rumors. No thought! No research! No knowledge of the literature. Just time servers jumping on a bandwagon.
Thank you DR. LGID, I have followed your teachings since you mentioned this years ago. Let’s say they do this and we now have trillions in our “purse”. How in the hell do we force them to spend it on real needs and real people? Is that a whole new battle? Will we survive?
But where are the clowns?
There ought to be clowns.
Quick, send in the clowns.
What a surprise.
Who could foresee
I’d come to feel about you
What you’d felt about me?
Why only now when i see
That you’d drifted away?
What a surprise.
What a cliché.
Isn’t it rich?
Isn’t it queer?
Losing my timing this late
In my career?
And where are the clowns?
Quick, send in the clowns.
Don’t bother – they’re here.
A circus of uninformed fluff, letsgetitdone, and those of us who have had the advantage of your serious considerations, for quite some significant time, are always struck by that lack of depth, the lack of knowledge, of thought, of basic research … the well-coiffed village band mediots all beating time to the waggin’ foolishness of “NO … no how, no way”.
We can only expect more of it, piled higher and deeper, and when the unctuous experts of “academia” wade fully “in”, probably on NPR or some other “serious” media” outlet, it will have reached its zenith and the wise and witty will move on, to other “matters” as the “drift” toward societal collapse, environmental calamity, secret wars continues to accelerate.
DW
All going to show, I consider, that NOTHING of meaningful substance, of courageous or inventive perspective, reflecting compassionate, rational responsibility may be expected from the brightest and best. “It’s a big club”, and none of us are members … “we’re not in it”.
DW
BTW, for those of you who might not have seen this, we have the Great Krugman back, once again, at his partisan best.
It’s a “class war” he says, but only the Republicans are waging it. The “Democrats want to preserve the legacy of the New Deal and the Great Society – Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid – and add to them what every other advanced country has: a more or less universal guarantee of essential health care.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/04/opinion/kurgman-battles-of-the-budget.html?hp
DW
Oh my Goodness, Comrade Bartoo! They’ve made a travesty of themselves. Who could have foreseen?
Uncle Karl sends his love.
But is his pitch higher, comrade? Did they tighten his cuff?
Krudman’s a fish. He ain’t got cahones.
Thank you so very much. That article was a great read for me. I’ve wondered about the history of that legislation ever since beowulf introduced this notion at FDL on January 3, 2011.
Thank you for providing a voice of sanity in this mostly otherwise loony thread.
Krugman thinks capitalism can be successfully reformed and regulated. How bright could he possibly be?
What a bunch of malarkey. Thank the Odd Gods of the Galaxy, or maybe of Monty Python’s Flying Circus, for sending Ludwig in to taunt you.
Is that Loki I hear laughing? Or the Coyote? Oh yeah, same dude, different continent.