Enthusiasm for using Platinum Coin Seigniorage (PCS) to produce a Trillion Dollar Coin, or coins totaling a few trillion dollars continues to increase. The twitterverse went mad two nights ago around #mintthecoin, a hashtag originated by MMT’s Stephanie Kelton, which by yesterday morning had become the 5th most highly trending topic on twitter.
Meanwhile, the blogosphere continued to produce more points of view on the Platinum Coin. The points of view divide into those that are very negative; either claiming that 1) using Platinum Coins would be illegal or unconstitutional, or 2) using them would be just ridiculous and financially irresponsible, and so should be avoided; and others that favor using PCS 3) either in a limited way to avoid the debt ceiling crisis, or 4) in a much more robust way, that would change the procedures underlying Federal spending, so that fiscal policies advocating austerity no longer have a political foundation in a visible and rising national debt that austerity advocates can constantly talk about fixing through “shared sacrifice.” In this post I’ll review new posts on legality and constitutionality.
Kevin Drum on legality
Kevin Drum of Mother Jones filed his second recent post claiming that the trillion dollar coin is illegal and will be subject to challenge in Court on grounds of intent. He repeats exactly the same reasoning he used in his first post. I’ve already critiqued that reasoning saying that the Courts generally don’t try to interpret laws based on theories about Congressional intent. The Justices aren’t collective psychologists who are expert at divining the intent of the Congress. They are expert, however, at interpreting what the text of a law says, and so that is what they stick to almost all the time. A challenge to PCS based on intent isn’t something any Court is likely to take up. Drum then adds:
There is, apparently, a widespread belief that courts will uphold a literal, hypertechnical reading of legislative language regardless of its obvious intent, but I’m quite certain this isn’t true. Courts are expected to rule based on the most sensible interpretation of a law, not its most tortured possible construction. I don’t think there’s even a remote chance that any court in the country would uphold a Treasury reading of this law that used it as a pretense for minting a $1 trillion coin.
I am, obviously, not a lawyer. So if someone with actual legal training in the appropriate area of the law says I’m wrong, then I guess I’m wrong.
Well,, the language of 31USC5112(k) doesn’t look very tortured or “hypertechnical” either to myself or many others who have looked at this including lawyers Jack Balkin and Carlos Mucha (beowulf); but seems very plain and unambiguous. Drum is entitled to his opinion, but as he keeps saying, he’s no lawyer, and his judgment about what the Courts will do based on the problem of intent isn’t very plausible.
What if a trillion dollar coin is used to avoid the debt ceiling, and this saves the United States from defaulting on its debts, and the world financial system from collapsing? Is it then likely that the Supreme Court will entertain any challenges to the plain language of the law based on an interpretation of intent, which would then place the Treasury in the position of having to return that trillion dollars in Fed credits, and again look default in the face? Can you see John Roberts ever voting for this? Please Kevin, give us a break!
John Carney on Unconstitutionality
John Carney believes that Platinum Coin Seigniorage (PCS) and the Trillion Dollar Coin are unconstitutional. The core of his argument is:
There are limits to how far Congress can stretch its powers under the necessary and proper clause. Of particular interest to us here is the non-delegation doctrine, which holds that the Constitution’s requirement that laws be passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the government constrains the ability of Congress to delegate its lawmaking authority to other bodies. . . .
The Supreme Court . . . . went out of its way to affirm the basic principle of non-delegation . . .
Article I, Section 1, of the Constitution vests “[a]ll legislative Powers herein granted… in a Congress of the United States.” This text permits no delegation of those powers, and so we repeatedly have said that when Congress confers decision making authority upon agencies Congress must “lay down by legislative act an intelligible principle to which the person or body authorized to [act] is directed to conform.”
So the question that is relevant for us here is whether or not the law that authorizes the creation of platinum coins by the U.S. Treasury lays down an “intelligible principle” to which the Treasury is directed to conform.
He then quotes the law authorizing PCS:
“The Secretary may mint and issue bullion and proof platinum coins in accordance with such specifications, designs, varieties, quantities, denominations, and inscriptions as the Secretary, in the Secretary’s discretion, may prescribe from time to time.”You see the problem here, right? There’s no intelligible principle whatsoever. The law gives the Secretary complete discretion over everything having to do with the minting of platinum coins. This is very likely an unconstitutional delegation of the legislative power to coin money and regulate the value thereof.
Carney goes on to talk about issues of standing recognizing that standing may be very difficult to get from the Courts and that therefore it may not be possible to challenge the law. But he still thinks that the above argument is a decisive one and that the coin seigniorage law is unconstitutional. You see the problems here, right?
First, the power to physically mint coins is not a law making power, per se. In delegating this power to the Treasury and the Mint, no law making is involved. So, the principle of non-delegation of legislative power may not apply even if “intelligible principles” didn’t exist. But, as we’ll see they do exist anyway.
Second, Congress delegated the Treasury the power to mint platinum bullion and proof coins having a variety of properties to be specified by the Secretary; but it did not delegate to the Secretary that power with respect to coins made out of other materials; or even with respect to platinum coins that are neither bullion or proof coins. So, Congress did limit the authority of the Treasury according to intelligible principles. And in the area of platinum coins what Congress has done is to delegate its authority according to “the intelligible principle” that the Secretary is to mint such coins with face values he/she deems necessary and proper. That seems like an intelligible principle to me, even though John Carney may not like the principle.
Beowulf goes much further in pointing out that the Treasury Secretary’s broad coin minting authority is, in fact, highly constrained by Congress. He says:
Now here’s where John is wrong, the Secretary has no legal discretion in this matter whatsoever. His path is laid out by Congress like he’s the mechanical rabbit at a dog race.
1. Congress tells the Secretary (as supervisor of the IRS) how much to collect in tax receipts and (with somewhat less effort) in miscellaneous receipts.
2. Congress tells the Secretary as signatory of every single appropriation warrant how much money to transfer to federal agency sub-accounts (called “appropriation symbols” for some obscure reason).
3. Congress tells the Secretary he MAY borrow on the credit of the United State to fund expenditures but not for one penny more than the debt ceiling.
4. Congress tells the Secretary he SHALL mint coins such coins as he decides are necessary to meet the needs of the United States.
When Congress orders the Secretary to spend appropriations in excess of the receipts they’ve ordered him to collect, the unavoidable budget deficit must be filled by the combination of the Secretary’s powers to borrow (debt limit-constrained) money and to mint (debt-free) money. If Congress refuses to increase receipts or cut appropriations or extend the debt limit, the Secretary has only one and only one path to comply with all of his legal duties. Maybe I’m naive, but I’m confident the path to salvation will never be ruled unconstitutional by any United States Court.
This is a pretty decisive argument about “intelligible principles” governing Treasury’s responsibility to coin, isn’t it?
Third, Carney’s using his non-delegation argument to apply against the PCS legislation is remarkably devoid of the legal context of Congress’s delegation of its money power. If the Court were willing to consider such a theory in relation to PCS, then how would it avoid applying the same theory, when someone comes along who wants to challenge the constitutionality of the Fed?
In creating the Fed Congress not only delegated very, very broad money creating powers without specifying intelligible principles to guide the delegation; but in addition, it created an executive institution which is independent of the Executive Branch. Surely, this is an unconstitutional delegation of its power that infringes on the rights of the Executive Branch of Government. But it is an unconstitutional delegation that no one except the President has obvious standing to challenge, as Senator Phil Hart (D-Mich) and Congressman Henry Reuss (D-WI) found during the 1970s when they were denied standing to pursue their suit against the Fed on its constitutionality.
In a second post yesterday John Carney replies to the criticism that the non-delegation principle, if applicable to PCS, should apply equally well to the Fed. He says:
The Federal Reserve Act, which establishes and empowers the Fed, is a long bill full of instructions from Congress about what the Fed may and may not do. (In fact, the Fed’s powers were changed recently, under the Dodd-Frank Act.) Most importantly, the Act directs the Fed to implement monetary policy to meet some very specific goals.
And Carney goes on to quote the mandate of the Fed under the Federal Reserve Act following that with the conclusion:
That’s an extremely explicit “intelligible principle.” The Fed cannot make policy willy-nilly.It must conform its policy to increase production while promoting maximum employment, stable prices and moderate long-term interest rates. The Fed has a lot of latitude when it comes to how best to pursue those goals but the goals are very clear.
All that is true, but, this very explicit instruction of the Fed in the Act makes it quite clear that the Fed performs Executive functions, and the question immediately arises about whether Congress has the constitutional authority to create and maintain it as independent from the Executive Branch, especially since there is no clearer principle in the Constitution than separation of powers and the establishment of only three branches of Government. In addition, the Act establishing the Fed isn’t very explicit in regulating and guiding its money creation powers. Surely it doesn’t explicitly give the Fed the authority to create money out of thin air, or limit this power in any coherent way.
Apart from this however, Carney’s comparison between the Fed legislation and the coin seigniorage legislation is an unfair comparison, because the Fed as an institution with delegated powers should surely be compared to the Treasury as an institution with delegated powers, and then the question should be asked whether Congress has specified “intelligible principles” for both. I think the answer is clearly yes, and also that there is little to distinguish between them on these grounds.
Also, the relevant and fair comparison between the Fed and the Treasury Carney should have made is in the area of money creation powers, rather than comparing the Fed as an institution with the narrow Treasury function of platinum coin minting and seigniorage authority. Once one does that; it’s plain that the authority of the Fed with respect to respect to reserve and currency creation is lavish, and much less regulated and governed by the Congress in the form of “intelligible principles”, than is the coinage authority of the Treasury.
In fact, it is only in the area of PCS that the Treasury has anywhere near the freedom and authority that the Fed routinely exercises over reserves. So, with respect to money creation powers it seems that a much greater delegation problem, if there is one, exists between Congress and the Fed than between Congress and the Treasury.
Of course, no one can be sure about what strange decisions may ensue from this Supreme Court. But the same problem exists with Carney’s theory about what the Courts might do as with Drum’s. That is, if the President uses PCS, cites the legislation, and then prevents a default, will the Courts really then declare the PCS legislation unconstitutional based on a vague doctrine like non-delegation which has had limited previous applicability, which would be questionable in this application, and which might have the consequence of crashing the global financial system? Somehow I doubt that John Roberts and Anthony Kennedy would join in such a ruling; and Justices Kagan, Ginsberg, Briar, and Sotomayor are even less likely to decide that way. In other words, John Carney, if it ever gets to the Supreme Court, which is highly doubtful due to standing problems, I think there’s a 6-3, or perhaps even a 7-2 vote in favor of constitutionality coming up on this one.
Conclusion
Summing up, I think the efforts of Drum and Carney to put forward legal theories about the coin seigniorage legislation are both questionable. Drum really offers a tough argument to make stick, because the kinds of intent considerations he brings forward could be used to challenge any Act that had unintended consequences. When we realize that almost every piece of legislation has unintended consequences, it’s clear that an attack based on intent would really be a difficult one to sustain in the face of the plain language of 31USC5112(k).
And with respect to Carney’s legal theory, that the non-delegation doctrine can be applied to coin seigniorage, it is very hard to take his theory seriously. Sure, legislation that assigns legislative powers to other branches of the Government is unconstitutional. It’s also true that legislation assigning executive functions to agencies outside the Executive Branch is also unconstitutional.
But what is a legislative function and what is an executive function? The boundaries between the two are often not so sharp, and some deference must be and has been given by the courts to Congress’s own decisions in delegating both its own and executive functions (like the Fed’s) to other agencies. So, the application of the non-delegation doctrine is a very subjective matter, and is very unlikely to be relied upon by Courts to check the coinage authority delegated to the Executive by the Congress in the clear language of the law.
(Cross-posted from New Economic Perspectives.)
Photo in the public domain.




148 Comments

It may be constitutional. It may be legal. It’s still a con job. Why?
Something called the labor theory of value, that’s why.
Ah, comrade, it’s the dialectic hijacked by crapitalists. The good crapitalists versus the bad ones.
Ho ho ho. Merry Christmas.
I see that wild goose is listed three times on the menu.
Check please!
OB, OK. I’ll bite; what it does have to with the Labor Theory of Value?
Save it for Randy in the Afternoon, comrade Barbarian. Dancing should be better then.
Ah, you refer to the Book Salon, Ludwig?
It is always interesting to trade comments with Bill Black, and I look forward to having the opportunity of conversing with L. Randall Wray.
Looking forward, as well, to seeing both you and Ohio Barbarian there.
Late-stage capitalism, clearly, has no interest in the actual value of labor, although labor is the central aspect in wealth creation, that is, wealth is, simply, the production of something useful to human beings THROUGH the process of labor in changing materials “found” in “nature” INTO that something “useful”.
While such a coin as letsgetitdone proposes might, indeed, and in fact, be a “con”, of sorts, it is totally appropriate as a “response” and a foil to the larger and continuing CON of capitalism which has totally co-opted an ostensible “democracy” so cunningly well that “the people” haven’t a clue as to the process which the elite have “labored” to “produce” for decades (or from the “beginning” if we wish to be totally honest) OR the consequence of that process, which can only become more grim, more oppressive, and more destructive … unless the “game” may be successfully challenged. Frankly, I am not of the opinion that a coin can or will be allowed to become such a challenge.
There is no simple “fix”. Everything, all societal “systems”, economic legal, and so on, have been deliberately and intentionally broken, from necessary social “trust” to the Rule of Law, upon which trust and civil society MUST depend. Without the Rule of Law civil society and civilization cannot exist and savagery and tyranny reign.
DW
I wish I had the time to prepare for the philosopher kings new approach to saving the world (can’t read Minsky that quickly), comrade Bartoo, but, as you may have surmised from my mood, I find is not really something to take seriously. Fraud piled on fraud, well, and so it goes …
These Platonists share the opinion of their predecessors that their labor is of greater worth. It’s their labor, after all. So, more gimmickry and advantageous labeling and intellectual fraud is not a “successful challenge”, it’s more of the same.
Until fraudsters quit their TINA plea, and cry for mercy upon their souls, and tell the whole truth, their crime will continue.
This “foil” is pathetic. Don’t you agree?
p.s. – Don’t want to be rescued by Mosler’s Money.
I agree with the entirety of what you say, Ludwig, yet suggest that, in Black and Wray, we might find that neither of them disagree with the gist of what you say.
At this point, the purpose of suasion is to find alignments where ever we might, to put into public consciousness ideas that have been intentionally savaged, and to dispel, when possible, myths which are designed to inhibit or destroy understanding.
The plundering is apparent to both Black and Wray, and it falls to the rest of us to nudge whoever might need nudging into a grasp of the need to establish very different “games”, for our species, IF it wishes to survive, to “play” …
Both “economics” and “war”, for example, are “games”, neither of which are preordained … despite those who bray that there is no such thing as reason, that notions of shared humanity are “bunk”, and insist that power hierarchies are reasonable and necessary to “order” and to sustained “wealth”. The lack of mention of humanity, justice, and sustainable existence is notable in the harangues of the “this is not a democracy it is a business” types.
The crimes will continue … until the people refuse to permit them to go on.
Those who, to their own, personal “benefit”, urge mere panacea, slight “tweaking”, or awaiting the arrival of shining saviors are either deliberately and delusionally dangerous or thoroughly, complicitly criminal … others betray their faint (and, I consider, foolish) hopes that all is well, only slighty awry, or that “incremental” steps are all that are possible … in this, as they apparently perceive it, apparently, near-best of all possible worlds.
See you at the Salon, Ludwig.
DW
See you, comrade.
I do have to point out though, there is still ideology masquerading as counter-jimcrackery.
“suasion [...] to put into public consciousness ideas that have been intentionally savaged”, yes, but it’s a little late for suasion, comrade. Denunciation and demands are instead called for … from the jimcracked persuaders, too.
Can’t do that on Mosler’s Money. Even in time of thorough discredit.
Something rotten in Denmark, comrade.
Nice job Lets. I thought Beos piece was spot on. How in the world can the Pres ignore this?
Regarding questions of legality:
The Mint spokesperson ABC interviewed last week thought that approval of all new coins had to go through Congress (which of course would kill the coin since there’s no way it would pass the Republican-controlled House):
However, this is contradicted by other information (h/t to beowulf):
First off, courts regularly look to the Federal Legislative History for guidance, especially when considering a novel question that lacks on point precedent.
Secondly, the function contemplated by the Fed is novel and outside their norm. In fact it is a function generally not contemplated and an attempt to usurp or, at a minimum, work around, the normal path.
I love Jack Balkin, but I disagree with him here. As I did the last time I discussed this with him in 2011.
First of all, the MMT blogger Clonal Antibody posted the following comment on August 1, 2011:
Elsewhere, if I recall correctly, he mentioned records of a 1996 conversation at the Mint regarding the possibility of paying off the national debt with a single coin. It might be worthwhile to follow up with him on that matter.
Secondly, here is an interesting interview with Philip Diehl who was head of the U.S. Mint from 1994 to 2000:
It might also be worthwhile to follow up with him.
Thirdly, the discussion that Kevin Drum cites is a year 2000 measure to correct a typo in this 1996 legislation. He visibly has no idea what he’s talking about.
Fourth, “intent” isn’t everything unless you’re Nino Scalia. I’m sure that the framers did not intend the the First Amendment to legalize pornography.
Waaay to much time on this.
Never.
Going.
To. Happen. This is Barack Obama, Law Prof.
It will not be his legacy.
To avoid the apparent gimmickry of the coin, consider a broader Constitutional argument, broader even than the 14th Amendment provision: Congress ordered the President to spend the money with full knowledge that tax revenues would be insufficient to cover all appropriated expenditures. Authorizing expenditure assumes exercise of the Executive power to pay for it, and here, accordingly, Congress has already authorized the borrowing necessary to pay for it. For Congress to then say that the President may not exercise the Executive power to pay the bills for spending Congress ordered is to interfere unconstitutionally with the executive power to enforce the laws.
Other than simply treating the statute as flat-out unconstitutional, perhaps there is a way for it to be treated as a soft cap in order to meet the conflicting requirements of all legislation and maintenance of a functioning government. It does seem the President should have the authority of a national emergency nature not to treat the law as a suicide pact requiring the United States of America to break other laws, including basic laws of contract with an international component that would involve treaties as well, and to stop its government from functioning at great danger to the public.
Regarding Carney’s argument. Congress has been very explicit about the powers and responsibilities that it has delegated to the Treasury. The person who push “worked closely with Rep. Mike Castle, who was chairman of the House Financial Services Subcommittee at the time” is explicit that the bill was intended to be a “blank check.” WTF else do we need? It was intended to be a BLANK CHECK.
If you really feel that way, why are you bothering to comment?
I think because he meant that it’s not going to happen? That in itself is a worthwhile comment. Certainly no less worthwhile than the Obama supporters who said he’d be more progressive in his second term, in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary.
Your comment is specious.
Contracts? No contract has ever been written that cannot be broken.
This isn’t a matter of some sacred contract that never has and never will exist. This is a matter of power. And smoke and mirrors arguments to maintain the existing power, which is all this magical coin crap is.
The point I didn’t see mentioned above is that every other nation/central bank in the world would see that coin as an overt act of financial war by the holder of the reserve currency against the rest of the world–which would demand various horrific responses. Horrific for the US that is–for the rest of the world it’d be like cleaning out a tape worm infection.
Ah well, what do I care? I hope you get your coin. Tomorrow if possible. The schadenfreude I’d feel afterwords seeing all
“liberals” deal with the consequences of their lunacy would almost be worth it.
Absolutely nothing. That’s the point.
You know, comrade, if a bridge collapses, firms get sued, people get sued, engineers get fired, and they track down the fucking flaw.
With these fucking psychohistorian priests and logos jugglers, when millions of times the damage is done, the fuckers collectively murmur “it wasn’t me” and skip off to the next fucking anarchic catastrophe.
Guess where they acquire their callousness from. But what I want to know is what makes these psychohistorians such willing objects of ridicule?
Wannabe Platonists maybe?
That is incoherent. What does it even mean?
Or maybe they’d be grateful that the worlds largest terrorist state didn’t turn their fucking population into Nazi Banshee’s this decade. Course you never can tell with this crew with their never ending extortion and deadly tantrums.
You mean you can’t follow. If you were more specific I could instruct you. I don’t think that’s your desire.
Because the point is salient.
No, life is far too short for such gibberish.
I picture you as Herod in JC Superstar.
Hee hee.
No.
This is not really complicated. The Constitution gives the legislative authority the sole power to control what goes into and comes out of the Treasury. For the president to decide, without reference to Congress, that he is going to add a trillion to the Treasury, is against the whole scheme of government set out in the Constitution. To draw from a law setting up a govt trade in platinum coins a delegation to the president to add to the Treasury any sum at any time, at his sole pleasure, is just nonsense.
And no, there would be not the slightest practical difficulty with SCOTUS deciding the matter this way. They are perfectly free to craft their injunction so that it allows borrowing past the ceiling to continue long enough to allow the legislative authority time to reach whatever “compromise” is needed to up the debt limit. In that situation, of course the president would have to give in to just about anything the House Rs demanded, having just been caught red-handed and smacked down by SCOTUS for attempted usurpation of Congressional control over revenue and borrowing.
Look, the administration doesn’t need any gimmick to have Treasury simply ignore the ceiling law in favor of faithfully executing all the laws that obligate spending. That’s what it’s going to have to do, like it or not, if the ceiling is not raised. It’s not going to want to do that, ignore the ceiling, because it does not want to act in even the false appearance of lawlessness. Using a gimmick like PCS, besides being utterly gratuitous, would simply further the appearance of lawlessness. Unlike ignoring the ceiling, it actually would be lawless. Unlike ignoring the ceiling, it actually would attract swift SCOTUS certification of its lawlessness.
For all the understandable reluctance of the courts to get into legislative intent, the one circumstance in which legislative intent becomes an unavoidable issue is the circumstance Treasury finds itself in the day the ceiling is exceeded — that of being subject to apparently contradictory requirements by the law. It is required to pay all the obligations created by public law, yet the inability to borrow, if it interprets the ceiling as applying to its actions, will leave approx 40% of those obligations unfulfillable. It would be one thing if there were to be no money to make any payments after the ceiling is breached; then the the ceiling law could be seen as creating a circumstance in which the obligations created by the spending laws had to be set aside, because it must have been Congressional intent to cease spending when the money ran out. But there will be money, about 60% of the money needed to fulfill the spending obligations. There could not possibly be legislative intent for Treasury to decide which 60% of these obligations are met, and which 40% are set aside. For Treasury to allocate spending would be to usurp the appropriation power that only the legislative authority possesses. Practically speaking, the 40% who were deptived of what the law says they were due would all seek relief from the courts, but the courts as well, lacking the power of appropriation, woudl not be able to prioritize who gets paid and who gets stiffed, if the ceiling is interpreted as applying to Treasury.
What you’re supposed to do if you find yourself subject to apparently contradictory legal requirements, is to interpret all such law in a way that resolves the contradiction. The only way I can see to make the spending laws and the ceiling law not require contradictory actions of Treasury is to make the interpretation, which has the advantage of being the historically correct interpretation, that the ceiling is not meant to be the debt limit that Treasury is meant to follow. Treasury needs a debt limit from the legislative authority, of course, or we have a delegaiton problem, since the US can only borrow by public law. But other provisions of the law already specify that Treasury has the authority and duty to borrow enough to meet the spending obligations of the US that aren’t covered by revenue, so we already have Treasury’s functional, actual debt ceiling established in law. These ceilings we keep resetting are a fossil remnant of the initial control measure Congress adopted when it first went from the practice of approving every bond issue by individual statute, to delegating bond issuance to Treasury. It has since adopted other control measures to keep even closer control over spending and revenue/borrowing. We now have an annual budget process, under which Congress sweeps all spending under a dozen or so omnibus bills. Those bills currently are the clearest registry of Congressional intent on how much the US is to spend, and thus how much it is to borrow. We no longer control borrowing by limiting the size of the national debt, we control it by an acutal budget process.
The legislative authority, to include the House, voted for the budget, the spending obligations we live under right now. The House has already approved borrowing enough to meet the obligations it approved my majority vote. If it wants to use the ceiling as a reminder to think about the size of the national debt, it is free to do so. But it is not free to renege on its own approval of current levels of spending, and unlaterally set aside spending that the whole legislative authority established in law. The ceiling law cannot reasonably be interpreted as somehow giving the House that power.
Again, what is the point of MMT? It will not avert human created distruction of the planet and fiat currency is a scam, why listen to these high priest?
Which clause?
Today’s Supreme Court is purely political, it does not rule in accordance with established principles of law (see Bush v. Gore). Sadly, the Supreme Court can be expected to twist the law to rule that the $1 trillion platinum coin is not legal. Why? Because the issuance of this coin would solve the nation’s debt problem, making it possible for Congress to vastly increase its funding of needed governmental programs. And this the Powers That Be do not want.
Having said this, I believe the $1 trillion platinum coin is ultimately inevitable because it’s such a perfect fit for American culture–it’s cool, it’s sexy, and movies about plots to steal this coin will be blockbusters. There was actually a similar concept to the platinum coin in the great sci-fi flick “In Time” (which contains more analysis of economic concepts than any other movie I have ever seen).
What would anyone do with it after they stole it? It wouldn’t fit existing vending machines. Nobody could make change for it. Anyone who tried to deposit in their bank account would be arrested. And, if they were concerned about theft, the Fed could destroy it. But, then, maybe all of that would make a good movie plot line. ;-)
OK, let’s say this is legal, according to the letter of the law. Isn’t there another, psychological dimension to this? Isn’t money (especially fiat currency) only worth something because people think it should be worth something?
Will the trillion dollar coin work in this dimension? Will people “believe in it”?
Art I, sec 8′s first two paras, and Art I, sec 9′s seventh para.
I wonder if this nonsense will lead to Coin Wars where many of the worlds bankrupt Rulers seek to perpetuate the charade of limitless growth and consumption.
Why not mint a billion dollar coin for every person in the country so we can pay all our debts and continue to play the Game in luxury and freedom.
Why not try it and see what happens. Whatever they’re doing now is obviously not working. Believing in something and having something actually work are two very different things. Maybe people will finally see their true motives. Then again, American Idol is starting a new season. No time for that. :(
What a tragic farce!!
In the eyes of those who run financial markets – not just in the US but all over the world – a “dysfunctional” government is one which puts any impediments whatsoever on unlimited credit creation. Given the $US hundreds of TRILLIONS of “derivatives” extant, any such “limits” or even the thought that there ARE any limits is dangerous in the extreme. These same “markets” get awfully nervous when there is any discussion about “limits” to the issuance of US Treasury debt because that same debt is the ONLY underpinning for the US Dollar which is in turn the ONLY underpinning for the global financial system.
To understand the ludicrous nature of what now passes for “fiscal management” in the US or anywhere else, consider an example. At present, China owns about $US 1.2 TRILLION “worth” of US Treasury debt paper. Imagine if you will the reaction from the Chinese government if Mr Obama ordered his Treasury to mint a platinum coin weighing (let’s be generous) 100 troy ounces with a denomination of $US 1.2 TRILLION. Having received this beautiful, bright and shiny new coin. Mr Obama then stuffs it in his briefcase, jumps aboard Air Force One and directs the pilot to head for Beijing. Upon landing, Mr Obama drives to the Great Hall of the People. He then requests and is of course granted a meeting with the Chinese Premier. Mr Obama then plunks his briefcase down on the Premier’s desk, extracts the coin, hands it to the Premier and declaims with a huge smile: “There you go – we’re even!” “I’m off to Tokyo now. I’ve got another one just like this one for them.”
Do you spice smoking morons not realize that this foolish game will lead to WAR?
Oh yes it most definitely will. Millions will die as the american regime asserts its nasty desperate response to this coming meltdown. Just as happened in WW2 and all those wars to follow.
War is the consequence of this magical thinking we all engage in.
Want your government???
Want it REAL BIG??
Well then don’t bitch and whine when the bill comes due and as sure as the sun rises and sets…It is due soon.
War is definitely a tragic farce. Millions will die either way. Austerity or War. Which do you prefer? What a show that would make on the teevee. I’ve lost all that hope i have been waiting for since 2008.
Agree completely. The way I see it, support for the Coin is a way of saying, “We’re mad as Hell, and we’re not going to take it anymore.” In other words, it’s a wake-up call to our supposed “leaders”, telling them we’re fed up with their continual pandering to Wall Street, and that we demand they do SOMETHING to start healing the wounds caused by thirty-plus years of mass immiseration, rampant environmental destruction, and sociopathic war-mongering (and war-waging).
Sure, the only thing our faux leaders are likely to listen to is organized, collective resistance to their insane practices; but in order for such resistance to take shape, people need to realize that there are alternatives to the current insanity- and talking about the Coin is one way of contributing to the growth of such a realization.
And just to flesh this out, look at Federalist #58, where Madison, you know, the guy who wrote the Constitution, assuring us of the power of the demographically representative chamber, tells us that “The House of Representatives cannot only refuse, but they alone can propose, the supplies requisite for the support of government.” While the origination of money bills in the House has become a vestigial distincion between the two chmabers, it remains true that Congress is clearly meant to have exclusive control over what goes into the Treasury, and Treasury is meant to be the sole source of funding for everything the federal govt does. If I’m not mistaken, one of the rather hugely problematic aspects of Iran-Contra, was precisely that it involved bypassing Congress’s power to control foreign policy by controlling its funding, because the Iran-Contra plotters set up alternate sources of funding, mainly by selling arms to Iran.
In general, the “power of the purse” was one of the fundamental concepts that the Founders had in mind in designing the new national govt. This concept had been important centuries in the British tradition, as Hamilton tells us in the bit just before the above quote. “They (the House), in a word, hold in the purse that powerful instrument by which we behold, in the history of the British Constitution, an infant and humble representation of the people gradually enlarging the sphere of its activity and importance, and finally reducing, as far as it seems to have wished, all the overgrown prerogatives of the other branches of the government.”
The Founders chose carefully what features of the general concept of the “power of the purse” to put into our govt, and one feature they did not include was automatically time-limited spending authorizations (well, they did put this in for “raising and supporting Armies”, but we have pretty much ignored that provision since 1815). The idea behind this feature would have been to require an ongoing consensus, the agreement of both chambers and the veto-wielding president, for all govt spending, rather than allowing public law to create the authority to create programs that continue until the law establishing them is repealed. The current R House is trying to assert such a power. They would have us believe that the laws that set a ceiling limit are a vehicle for exercising their imagined power to unilaterally sunset any spending they unilaterally disapprove of.
You’ve raised a very basic point. Given our enormous, unused technological capacity, money is actually worth a lot less than it’s selling for. We can easily produce a vast manifold of goods cheaply and efficiently and for a low price. Converting to our true productive capacity would give everyone a living wage, with a clean environment (as environmental conversions could be cheaply implemented) and plenty of food, housing, and medical care for all. One, two, many $1 trillion platinum coins will help to achieve this goal because it will cheapen money to its true worth. The PTB doesn’t want this because their real goal is power and control. $1 trillion platinum coins will help to alleviate the present, needless fight for resources and help to bring peace, not war.
Correction: money is actually worth a lot more than it’s selling for (I wish the edit period at FDL would last longer).
But,but,but…..Our president tells us we MUST look forward! To austerity,drones,and more drones. So there. What did that great pitcher,Satchel Paige, say? ” Never look back; they might be catching up to you”.
So long as the Chinese can plop that coin down at the fed and get dollars or other treasuries, what’s the problem?
Sorry, my mind is muddled this morning, although my basic point is valid. I’ve been thinking this through. Money today will buy less than it should (for example, medical care and higher education are vastly overpriced). So I was correct initially, money is worth LESS than it should be.
The platinum coins will end our debt-based economy. Money will no longer need to be kept in reserve for payment of trillions of dollars of governmental obligations. This will free up the money for productive uses, governmental programs as well as needed private investment. The same total amount of money will be in circulation (the platinum coins will not circulate) but the money available for circulation, which is currently tied up in debt reserves, will be put to productive use. As a result, the demand for money for productive purposes will increase, and its value will rise. $10,000 which formerly could buy a semester’s worth of tuition at a university may now be able to buy 4 years’ worth.
As technology improves, the relative value of money (assuming its total supply, minus the platinum coins, does not grow) will continue to increase. This will be different from other deflations, however, in that, because the underlying debt burden will have been lifted at the governmental level, deflation will not have its usual, harmful effects.
It is money denominated in dollars. The fed would have to recognize it and perhaps then arrest to holder for theft. In fact, why couldn’t the gov pay its bills with coins? Now pennies would not practical but maybe a platinum coin worth say ten million or so could be uses.
Yes, and the saddest thing we have to look forward to is the progessive dumbing down of our politics. Read the Federalist, then read the opinion page of any of our newspapers — much less watch the Sunday talkshows! Yikes!
Someone supposedly asked Franklin after the convention was done, what it had given us, and he said, “A republic, if you can keep it.” I worry about our ability to keep from public drooling.
Furthermore, although wages would be expected to go down because of the rising value of money under a platinum coin regime, they will not go down nearly as fast as the falling cost of goods because the overall prosperity of the economy will increase so dramatically once the debt burden is lifted. The share of of total monetary outlays that goes to wages will increase relative to the total economy. The position of labor relative to capital will thereby improve.
I suppose you are a lawyer making your case. I am not, sadly. But that bit written by Beowulf in the post seems to cover this thing pretty well. Why not address that? It does seem to me you want to have this only on your own terms.
A key factor holding up wages will be the vast increases in productive economic activity, which will strengthen the demand for labor despite increases in automation. Management may wish to hoard their new profits but they will be forced to compete for scarce labor. A resurgence in labor’s bargaining strength will result.
I suppose you are a lawyer making your case. I am not, sadly. But that bit written by Beowulf in the post seems to cover this thing pretty well. Why not address that? It does seem to me you want to have this only on your own term. Congress has the power of the purse. All spending bills start there. The Treasury cannot spend without that authorization.
What? Didn’t you digest the message in the “conclusion” to the main post – i.e. that legislative intent and history are irrelevant to courts and law?
Frankly, this post owes gtomkins a favor for providing some sanity. The fabulists clamoring for “the platinum coin” or “the 14th option” are nuts. I recognize many of the names advocating this nonsense, and they are the same people that scream bloody murder when John Yoo, Dick Cheney and David Addington twist, pervert and ignore the letter and history of the Constitutional and statutory law to serve their immediate gratification on hard issues.
Yet here are those same people advocating just that as a cheap way out of the debt ceiling conundrum. It is cowardly, cheap and antithetical to what the Constitutional framework we exist under calls for. And taking that path always begets more of the same, and makes it that much easier to compromise principles for temporary efficacy the next time. It is exactly the moral and legal cowardice that has, over time, produced the degraded and perverted governance we now live under.
What money do you think is being held in reserve?
No. The dollar is “worth something,” because U.S. taxes have to be paid in dollars. (Think of the dollar as a transferable tax credit.)
“The PTB doesn’t want this because their real goal is power and control.” This is the best quote on this thread.
I wish this principle was widely known. Instead the PTB are on track to get away with consolidating power.
We’d rather watch reality TV like “Meet the Press-titutes,” Walter Schlongcrite, or whatever sensationalist bullcrap snags our limited attention.
I’m not too informed about government budgeting mechanisms so I can’t fully answer your question. But the main way that money is being held in reserve is the refusal of governments to pay for needed services under the pretense that governmental deficits are too great. Thus, catastrophic cuts in education, health care, infrastructure improvement, etc. This constitutes holding money in reserve on a massive scale, even if there is no specific line item in the budget.
You’re ignoring Article 1 Section 8 Clause 5, which grants the power to “coin money,” which Congress has delegated to the Treasury.
You may very well be right by the law. I can’t say. But I can say it makes no sense at all for congress to approve the spending bills and then come along and say you can’t pay it. In fact as I understand congress provided the treasury with the power to mint this coin. I agree it seems gimmicky. But what is congress doing with the debt limit law? I guess you can say two gimmicks don’t make a right but this whole thing is nonsense. Congress can reduce spending in the future if it chooses.
That would vastly increase the money supply causing inflation. This coin would sit in the vault at the Fed, which is not part of the money supply, and would not increase spending beyond that which is appropriated by Congress.
Ok I understand that. I would say it differently, but I think I,got your meaning.
Or we can all move to Lake Wobegon where everyone is rich and above average.
Perhaps you didn’t realize that we are already coining money (roughly $10 billion in 2011) and paying government bills with it, and have been doing so for the past 220 years since the founding of the U.S. Mint. The proposed coin is simply a bookkeeping device that tells the Fed to credit the Treasury’s account for $1 trillion. It then sits in the Treasury’s vault until the Treasury decides to destroy it.
Occupy the Cayman Islands!!!
Now that’s an idea I can get behind.
Well, I’m not a lawyer, don’t even play on on TV, but I guess it’s a compliment that you think that I am one. At least I’ll take it that way.
As for what Beowulf writes, I just have trouble taking it seriously. And it rarely does much good to argue against something you can’t take seriously. But, by request, here goes.
The idea being argued is whether the platinum coin law sufficiently limits the executive in its issuance of platinum coins that will bring in revenue. If it doesn’t limit sufficiently, then delegation of the power to generate revenue in the law is unconstitutional, because the Congress is not allowed to delegate its sole power to control what comes into the Treasury. So Beowulf goes over a four-point list of the limitations the coin law does put on the executive as it goes about generating revenue. That’s great, except his list of limititation imposed by the mechanics of issuing the coin, leaves out any mention of the key limitation it would need — the amount of revenue generated — because the law has no such limit. If the law is interprted to mean that no limitaton was implied, that the president really can add 5 trillion to Treasury, then yes, it’s pretty clearly an unconstitutionally broad delegation of Congress’s control over revenue.
Five trillion is no longer a user fee (and the fact that the 5 trillion coin isnt meant to be sold is another problem with usinhg this law for this scheme), it’s no longer even money, it’s the wrath of God.
I may not be able to cite the USC chapter and verse, but I’m pretty good with my Chayefsky.
Article 1 Section 9 Clause 7 (“No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law …”) gives Congress complete control of what comes out of the Treasury, and nobody is proposing any change in this regard.
Article 1 Section 8 Clasuses 1, 2, and 5 gives Congress power to levy taxes, borrow money, and coin money, respectively. Congress has delegated these to the Treasury with varying restrictions. 31USC5112(k) removed some of the restrictions regarding the coining of money. If I understand correctly, per its author it was intended to be a “blank check” regarding the minting of platinum coins.
Well said!
But what it most certainly did NOT intend was to be a designated blank check to the Executive Branch to skirt and obviate Article I, Section 9. And it is absurd to argue that was either the letter or intent.
I think Lets said he wants to issue a 60 trillion dollar coin. Issuing the coin does not give the Treasury the right to spend it absent specific congressional approval. That’s the whole idea as I see it. I’m not sure the coin is revenue until the Treasury spends it. But as to the idea of spending these coins, one worth a trillion will not find too many takers. But mint them in smaller denominations and they could be spent. But I fear they will go the way of the two dollar bill.
I do think this is gimmicky if I can use that word. But this whole affair is dysfunctional.
In fact, we have done some of that for the past 220 years since the founding of the U.S. Mint. In 2011, the Treasury sold the Fed about $10 billion in coins. (The Fed pays face value for coins but the cost of printing for bills.) That money went into the Treasury’s General Account and covered about 1% of our Tax deficit.
Why do you feel this is a blank check? The Treasury cannot spend anything until approved by congress?
I like that point. It says this is different by magnitude only. But it’s been done before.
But did Congress mean to delegate the power to control revenue when it gave Treasury the authority to mint US coinage? That doesn’t seem a reasonable interpretaton of what was meant. And if it is, then the law implementing coinage is unconstitutional as an unallowably broad delegation of Congressional power to ocntrol revenue.
And the Fist Amendment was never meant to give us access to pornography either.
Maybe it was intended to be a blank check in regards to minting platinum coinage, but it seems a big stretch to say that it was also intended as a blank check for generating any amount of revenue. And if that was the intent, then the law is uncontitutional because it is way too broad a delegation of the sole legislative power to control revenue.
I am having a problem calling this revenue. Perhaps it is but it is not like a bond that the treasury sold to the public. It only gives treasury the right to pay legally authorized and presented bills. Now when they pay the bill they have, in some sense, converted that part to revenue.
This is a stupid argument. SCOTUS is simply not going to get into a fight of this magnitude between the Executive and Congress.
So far as I can tell, the only clause of Article 1 (The Legislative Branch) Section 9 (Limits on Congress) that’s relevant to this discussion is Clause 7:
So, exactly where has anyone proposed anything that violates that clause?
I agree that “just” giving the president control over revenue is not the total package that would mean that we have a true presidential autocracy. Yes, he would need control over spending as well to become a literal imperial president.
So, that’s your defense of this platinum coin idea, that it doesn’t turn the president into a dictator all by itself in one leap, it “just” gets us half way there?
That’s a pretty low bar for passing constitutional muster, that a law is all OK if only it doesn’t establish a dictatorship immediately and directly.
BTW our government regularly “prints” money. The Fed buys and sells treasury securites to control the overnight interest rate and for quantitative easing — all as it chooses. Wonder of wonders, that doesn’t seem to violate the law.
The fed has about 1.7 trillion of treasuries on hand. If they just gave those back to the Treasury or burned them, viola, no problem with the debt. But that would be too easy. It would be what corporations do with treasury stock.
Money flowing into the Treasury is either revenue or borrowing. Allow some third thing to be a third inflow, I guess by assuming the Founders just ommitted mentioning this third thing after they went over revenue and borrowing, and you clearly get around Congressional control over inflow into the Treasury. But if we can get around Constitutional language just by inventing new language and new categories that we are allowed to assume they forgot to mention, what’s the point of even pretending to have a written constitution?
The debt limit law was dysfunctional to begin with. We went along for some long time without it and didn’t turn into a dictatorship. I would worry more about the military and the control they have or have in concert with the President far more than the authority to pay the bills.
The law says whatever the current powers in office decide it says. If it benefits them and their Masters,it is so. Besides, knowing President Obama(whom i voted for in 2008), does anyone here think he has the balls to even acknowledge this ? He’s laughing over a beer with Bonehead as we speak. WE ARE FU**ED :((
But that’s it. It is not a third thing. It only creates the possiblity to pay the bills.
You do have a keen knowledge of the law. But times have changed a little since then. For example, we no longer back our money with gold. In fact nothing at all backs it.
As far as new language goes, isn’t that what this silly debt limit law did?
Of course not. They simply took the limit off seigniorage revenue on platinum coins. All other powers to control are unaffected.
“…our government regularly “prints” money.”
And my understanding is that this is limited by law, as to amounts and circumstances.
If this were not so, if the authority for the executive to print money were not limited, then we would be talking about the “just print 5 trillion in money” way out of the debt ceiling, not the “5 trillion platinum coin” gimmick.
If you trace the authority for the platinum coin back to some imagined more general authority for the president to just print money, well, the president can’t just print money as he pleases, so he can’t just mint platinum coins in any amount he chooses either.
That’s the opposite of my understanding. It was like pulling teeth to get an accounting from the Fed as to how much they had printed.
I’m using the verb “print” here in the way that Bernanke and other economists do, i.e., to mean the granting of credit in an account at the Fed. Economists call that “Ben’s printing press.”
Uh, if the proposal is NOT violating that clause, and/or otherwise obviating the Constitutional and legislative checks and balances, then it has no purpose.
That is EXACTLY what you are proposing.
They took the limit on seigniorage off to the expected tune of a trillion? Five trillion? Sixty trillion? A google trillion? Really? If so, then yes, they did indeed mean to delegate the power to control revenue. And if that’s what they meant, they passed an unconstitutional law.
“All other powers to control are unaffected”.
Well, that’s really reassuring. The president can add an unlimited amount to Treasury, but he damn well has to do so under Beowulf’s list of four limitations in the mechanics of how he does it. We force the president to dot the i’s and cross the t’s when he signs that 60 trillion dollar check. That’ll sure limit him.
Circumstance, maybe but not amount. The fed spend $29Trillion to stabilize the banks in 2008/9. Bet you never heard of that. I’m not sure that was legal either. But you have to suppose the circumstances warranted that unusual intervention. The fed prints all the money it needs to for some purposes. It does not buy things like tanks and bombs.
Anyway we are arguing about something that is more than likely not going to happen much as I would like it to. So the point is prolly moot.
In fairness, there are another set of misguided souls who effectively advocate the “just print it” via the so called “14th option”.
You’re worried about the security state and the imperial presidency, as I am, and you want to give all future presidents the additional power to create unlimted revenue out of thin air, without going to Congress? Agreed that Congress is pretty supine in giving the security state everything it asks for, so the power of the purse is not exercised with any strength of purpose, at least against the security state. So we should junk that power, so as to remove all possibility that some future Congress could ever start asserting itself?
By Article 1 Section 9 Clause 7, the Treasury (and president) can only write checks for expenses that have been congressionally appropriated. Nothing in this proposal skirts Congress’s grip on that purse string.
The absurdity of our current system is that any session of Congress can repudiate (renege on) bills run up by previous sessions or even the current one. In a sane system, whenever Congress appropriates an expense, it would issue funds to pay for that expense. After all, we left the gold standard four decades ago.
So, long as the President can’t spend any of it without Congressional appropriation, this amounts to the power to change a number in a computer and absolutely nothing else. It still requires an appropriation with draw even a penny from the Treasury.
Since most big banks are really insolvent, what’s to stop them from using this method to MAKE THEM WHOLE AGAIN. Since there will not be anything left for “us”, AUSTERITY! Am i remembering correctly that they didn’t even know how much the “dark market” was? 60 trillion? 600 trillion?
I think the constitutional problem with the platinum coin is that it represents money coming into the Treasury without Congressional authorization. That’s the whole point of the coin, to get more money into Treasury, if only as an accounting trick, in order to frustrate the effect of the debt ceiling. Whatever authority to print money has been granted the Fed for other purposes such as bank stabilization, it hasn’t been given the authority to channel its printed money into the Treasury.
At the end of the day, the adminstration is going to have to face this illegitimate, gimmick, use of the debt ceiling without itself using gimmicks. It will have to instruct Treasury to simply ignore the ceiling and keep on borrowing, so that it can continue to faithfully execute all the laws obligating spending. It’s not going to be politically easy to present even a false appearance of lawlessness, but that task sure won’t be made easier if it takes on this gratuitous actual lawlessness of the platinum coin.
What part of the distinction between putting money into an account and taking money out are you having trouble with?
The coin trick simply puts money into an account. In increments a number inside a computer at the Fed. A congressional appropriation is permission write a check against that account for a specific expenditure, no more, no less. It does not put money into that account to cover that check. Article 1 Section 9 Clause 7:
has to do with permission to write checks against the credit in the Treasury’s General Account (TGA), i.e. with taking money out of the TGA. The platinum coin simply puts money into the TGA to cover those checks when Congress tries denies permission to borrow money to cover them. Article 1 Section 9 Clause 7 says nothing about the power to put money into that account.
In the end, wigwam, we are all swimming against the tide. Too few think this is a reasonable approach and mostly the President. I think Beowulf once said that the first President to use the coin idea would be a Republican. I think he is right about that too. Let’s face it. Obama, in some real sense, wants this. It gives him cover to cut expenses that he has wanted to do since before his first term as Jane noted. But time will tell.
I’ve followed your argument and for what it’s worth I don’t think it has been defeated but then……
Good point. MMT, which is inherently progressive in nature, and the trillion dollar platinum coin are way outside the mindset or possible support of the big banks. A precondition for implementation of the platinum coin would be a change in political direction toward a more progressive point of view. The implementers of the platinum coin would not be sympathetic to new bank bailouts.
That is precisely my question to you. Immediately above you comment, gtomkins hits it on the head:
“…the constitutional problem with the platinum coin is that it represents money coming into the Treasury without Congressional authorization. That’s the whole point of the coin, to get more money into Treasury, if only as an accounting trick, in order to frustrate the effect of the debt ceiling. Whatever authority to print money has been granted the Fed for other purposes such as bank stabilization, it hasn’t been given the authority to channel its printed money into the Treasury.”
What you are suggesting is not only a wrongful self appropriation to the Treasury by the Article II Executive Branch, but a subsequent use of the same to back and pay the debt of the United States government in violation of the Separation of Powers and contra the legislative intent and statutes of the Article I Legislative Branch. If that were not what you were suggesting, you would not be doing so. Your “gimmick” is a flat out abrogation of the Constitutional form of governance.
My understanding of the point of the 14thers is that the debt ceiling is unconstitutional, at least if it is understood to compel Treasury to fail to honor US obligations.
I think that’s more along the right track, as it does get us back around to the illegitimacy of using an unwillngness by one chamber to approve a rise in the ceiling to force default. I just don’t see the point of the 14th to that argument. The 14th, if it did apply, would be, if anything, too strong. It says, if you understand it to apply to all US obligations, that once an obligation is undertaken in law, it cannot be abandoned even by the legislative authority. What we face is the House alone asserting that it can force the abandonment of US obligations all by itself. That claim, that the House alone can repudiate obligations, seems to me a much different and much dodgier claim than the idea that we could pass actual laws (both chambers plus the president) repealing spending obligations. We don’t need the 14th to tell us that what the House is doing is illegitmate (I only refrain from saying “illegal” because I would say that their failure to raise the ceiling has no legal effect on Treasury, not that they are somehow compelled by law to pass a rise in the ceiling, and are somehow engaged in criminal activity of they don’t).
My idea is that the debt ceiling can’t reasonably be understood to allow unicameral repudiation of US obligations, so no, it’s not unconstitutional, 14th or not. Toothless, yes, unconstitutional no. It originally probably was an actual limit on Treasury borrowing, it formed the first control measure on Treasury borrowing after we went from having Congress approve each individual debt issue to delegating issuance to Treasury. But it has been supplanted in that function by the budget process. We now limit Treasury to borrowing only enough to meet all US legal obligations in the annuall budget bills not covered by revenue. The ceiling was kept on solely as a ceremonial sop to the deficit scolds, whom we will have with us always. Right now it carries about the same practical force as that famous TN statute that made pi equal to exactly 3.
At least not directly. If I understand correctly, it can, however, contact one of its 16 primary dealers and place an order. The primary dealer can pick up that order at the next auction and seconds later transmit it to the Fed. The magic money (freshly created by the Fed on the spot from thin air) goes from the Fed to the dealer and from the dealer to the Treasury in a matter of seconds. It’s effectively the same as loaning magic money directly to the Treasury with one big exception: those bonds still count toward the debt limit.
True, in fact, the Treasury may not run an overdraft in its account at the Fed. But the Fed is also not permitted to buy bombs and such.
But then you say
I don’t understand that part. The Treasury is only trying to pay the bills it has been authorized to pay. It is a dysfuntional debt limit law, not the constitution, that is preventing that. Without that law the Treasury could issue debt, or I presume, issue a trillion dollar coin??
This is, in fact, a separation of powers. In any major corporation anyway the controller pays the bills authorized by Purchasing, Hr the law, etc. Is it really sensible to have congress authorize the spending and then cut the checks?
Of course, now you are talking about another dysfuntional part of our government: the separation of the fed and treasury.
You said:
Article 1 Section 9 Clause 7 has to do only with drawing money from the Treasury’s General Account (TGA).
Where does it say that Congress can’t delegate authority to put money into the TGA. The Mint has been doing exactly that for 220 years, e.g., roughly $10 billion in 2011. Indeed, 31USC5112(k) removed the cap on the amount. So where does it say that Congress can’t do that.
Why preconditions? What makes you think the “implementers” will not be kind to the banks? If there is profit to be made, you can be damn sure it will be; and not by us. Sociopaths work that way.
Folks, we can’t seriously be saying we cannot pay the armed forces due to a truly Stoopid law? Do we really believe that the Supremes will not allow that? If so, then I think this republic is indeed in real trouble. History will surely note this event.
This is simply a specious argument. If you are not putting the value (we have assumed arguendo $1 Trillion) of the damn Platinum Coin into the Treasury to cover and pay out the debts and obligations of the US Government, there is no reason whatsoever to put it in there. That is precisely what it is proposed to do, and to argue otherwise is false argument.
The 14th Amendment option would be to declare that 31USC3101(b)
implicitly violates the 14th Amendment:
by blocking the ability to pay portions of that debt.
It would involve the President deliberately violating a federal statute that he signed into law.
I agree it is a preferable argument; although, I argue still not a good one. It is an argument that I had with several people, including Jack Balkin, back in 2011 when this topic was hot. I wrote as an explanation as to why it did not work right here on the front page of FDL back in July of 2011:
The Unstated Constitutional Problems With Obama “Using the 14th”
Note, even to the extent Obama ever could consider it, “using the 14th” is not a day one option, hugely painful and potentially crippling steps ordering of payments until otherwise available revenue and resources, that are extant and incoming, were bled dry would be done before attempting it. “Using the 14th” is also not a particularly efficacious option.
The rule of law went out the window Sept.11,2001. If what we’re living now is not the definition of plutocracy, it’s darned close. No one should be hungry or homeless in this country unless they choose to. Those who do are in need of mental help. Do you think the Supremes know or care there are 1000 homeless vets on the streets of D.C. I would say the republic IS indeed in real trouble.
“those bonds still count toward the debt limit.”
Exactly, that’s what makes that procedure legitimate, and not a loophole accounting gimmick.
Responsible people (like Krugman) who have given this coin thing some thought, propose to use it as an accounting trick only until Congress approves the rise in the ceiling, after which Treasury issues debt to redeem the coin, and we go back to normal. (I guess we then make a billion or so of legitimate profit from the retired coin by auctioning it off to some eccentric Japanese billionaire). Balance is then restored to the Force, or something like that.
That’s a nice story to tell, but it has this happy ending only if the president is someone like Obama, a responsbile, intelligent person who rushes to make things right as soon as Congress comes to its senses. Sadly, outside of fairyland, the president is not always wise, self-controlled, and well-intentioned.
A further filigree on this “balance of the Force” story line, is the idea that after the crisis is over, to the strains of Kumbaya, our side agrees to junk forever the provision of the platinum coin law that allows 5 trillion seigniorage, and the other side agrees to junk forever any debt ceiling. Again, the beauty of this story-telling almost makes me weep, but I prefer my govt run on non-fairy-tale principles, so I’m for just ignoring the ceiling, as ugly and unglamorous as that storyline might be.
I still feel that the basic axioms of MMT are way outside the big banks’ understanding or support. I hope I am right and you are wrong, and not for personal reasons!
I hope so,too. Nothing personal, strictly business. I think that might be one of our many problems. Austerity is deeply personal, though.
I asked:
And you replied:
How can questions be “specious”?
I get the impression that your and gtompkin’s objections are that the 31USC5112(k) did not up a finite upper bound of the quantity and/or denominations of the platinum coins involved. Everything else is stuff that the treasury has been doing for a couple of centuries.
As I pointed out earlier the Mint pumped about $10 billion into the TGA. Do you think that was within the Framers’ intent? On what basis? How about if 31USC were amended with some finite upper bounds. $100 billion? $1000 billion? $10,000 billion? How much do you think that the framers had in mind?
We’re now covering our tax deficity with borrowing and coining in a ratio of about 100 to 1. IMHO, all that borrowing does is transfer $250 billion in wealth from the tax payers to the bond holders and gives Pete Peterson horror stories about how we have to cut back on education and defer highway maintenance so that our children won’t inherit so much debt.
I recommend that henceforth we cover all tax deficits with freshly issued money and sell bonds only to the extent that economic efficiency demands.
A decisive reply to your critics.
Article 1, Sec. 9, Cl. 7
Your gloss on this is also decisive:
Bmaz’s gloss fails to rebut your arguement:
Congress had already authorized the spending of money that exceeded current revenues. The Mint would only create money to pay for spent money as per Congressional authorization. Since Congress authorized the Secretary to mint platinum coins for whatever purposes it sees fit, minting coins to fund past — and future! — spending falls within the limits of 31 USC 5112 k. If Congress wants to amend 31 USC 5112 K, then it should do so. If it had ever wanted to curb spending, then it should have not spent the money it has spent. It failed to curb its spending. But a remedy exists, a remedy it created. Congress spent money and created through legislation a means by which it could fund this spending without using tax revenues. Everyone goes home happy save for the neo-Victorian fussbudgets
I think the framers would be on the streets of D.C. screaming BULLSHIT!!!( to what is up for debate)
The Framers would support sound money, Wall Street, fiscal responsibility, etc. Many of them were the oligarchs of their time. The Constitution they authored and passed through the states reflected their class and race biases. Debts were to be repaid; property was to be respected — human property too.
Thanks. Very well stated.
Well, I get off your trolley at the idea that the president directing Treasury to ignore the ceiling is a usurpation of Congress’s sole power to limit borrowing.
Maybe the ceiling was once, when we first started using them, Congress’s limit on Treasury borrowing. And yes, we need such a limit if Congress’s delegation to Treasury of the authority to issue debt is to be constitutional. But we have, since that time, started using a budget process that now sets the actual debt limit, namely, however high the debt must rise to cover all the obligations Congress undertook under the current annual budget bills. Even if we were 100 trillion under the curent limit, Treasury would not be authorized to borrow 100 trillion tomorrow, it could only borrow as much as is needed to meet tomorrow’s spending obligations made by public law.
Treasury is sufficiently limited by the legal scheme it lives under even if the formal debt ceiling did not exist and was not part of that scheme. In fact, since that legal scheme becomes self-contradictory, requires contradictory actions of Treasury, if the formal ceiling is breached, that formal ceiling must be interpreted by Treasury, should there be a breach, as having no legal effect on it. Treasury would be compelled to follow the real debt limit, and borrow as much as it takes to meet all legal obligations on the US.
With all due respect to Balkin’s undoubtedly superior knowledge of con law, I just don’t see how his idea of Treasury brokering or rationing spending works. Surely Congress has not delegated to Treasury the power of appropriation, and how could Treasury decide which 60% of legal obligations to meet, and which 40% to set aside, without usurping the power to appropriate?
I understand that some such limitation and specification of order of payment has been done for govt shutdowns created when budget authority has been allowed to expire. But that’s a copmpletely different animal. In that case there is no legal obligation to pay out money, in fact, that’s the point, in that situation, there is no legal authority or obligation to spend. If the debt ceiling lapses, however, we still have the authority to spend, and the ogligation to spend, in full force.
The ceiling law really is, now, since we started having annual spending authorization bills, a fifth wheel. It isn’t needed, and it would only interfere fatally with the entirety of the legal scheme in place if it were allowed to have any force. It is now window dressing only, as meaningless as the Senate rule that you need 2/3 to change the Senate rules, a rule that can itself be changed with only a simple majority. Simple majority is the real rule for every Senate vote that the Constitution does not specify as requiring a supermajority. Anything else is filigree and revocable privilege and self-deception. The full legislative authority — the House, plus the Senate, plus the president’s assent — revoked any privilege the House may have had to block spending when it made the current budget bills the law of the land.
The problem here is that many people can’t let go of the gold-standard mentality, where printing more dollars diluted their gold-value. Today, a dollar is a tax credit. It is intrinsically worth something because U.S. taxes have to be paid in dollars. Printing more of them does not dilute their value so long as we collect taxes.
Well, wise or not, I recommend that we do what you advise only by public law, and not by presidential decree. Even if it were sond public policy, I wouldn’t sell forever a republican form of govt just to get pulbic policy that might be what we need today.
No, my objection is that depositing it into the Treasury to cover the debt and obligations of the US government is illegal and unconstitutional in any amount.
I read that at the time and agreed with you then and now on the 14th Amendment option. To use that is to question Congress right to set limits on taxation, borrowing, and coining. But, you are now questioning Congress’s right to remove them in the case of coining.
Very well stated other than it is a total boatload of horse manure.
The Mint has been depositing coins indirectly into the TGA for a couiple of centuries and the Treasury has been covering the government’s expenses with it. Are you saying that all of this has been illegal?
The reimposition of the Gold Standard after the Civil War led to the appearance of the populist movement. With this means the Federal government sponsored debt peonage among the small farmers in the United States. But that movement foundered on the free silver movement and in the Democratic Party.
No, I am NOT questioning the right to coin; only the unilateral right of the Article II Executive to skirt the Article I power to set and control the purse. They can mint all those coins they want; it is when they start “depositing” them in the coffers as a direct substitute for the allowance of Congress that I have the issue. The former is provided for; the latter is not.
To the extent not directly sanctioned and ratified by Congress, yes.
Of course it has all been sanctioned by Congress, as has 31USC5112(k). The difference being that prior sanctions included finite upper bounds and quantities and denominations, while 31USC5112(k), explicitly omits them. My question to you is whether that makes 31USC5112(k) unconstitutional?
31USC5112(k) is a direct allowance of Congress. Perhaps is limitations are less rigid than you deem appropriate, but they did pass it.
Article 1 Section 9 Clause 7 gives Congress power to control withdrawals from the Treasury via the appropriation process, and this mechanism would provide funds to pay appropriated expenses only. There is no violation of the purse strings in that sense.
The only thing going on here is that in passing 31USC5112(k), Congress gave up some of its power to renege on the payment of appropriated expenses, which IMHO was an appropriate thing to do.
That is neither the letter, nor intent, of the provision. And to contradict an explicit Constitutional prerogative, yes it must be explicit. In answer to your question at 133 above; yes, as to the use of the minting you suggest, I do absolutely consider it unconstitutional.
Okay, so, IIUC, except for the lack of an upper bound of quantity and denomination, that is how the Mint has operated for over two centuries. It’s a two-stage process, the Fed pays the Mint into its account and at the end of each month that money gets swept into the Treasury’s General Account and comingled with tax money and the profits on the sale of bonds (borrowed money) and then gets used to cover expenses. The destination of the funds is always the TGA and the payment of the government’s bills.
In this case, it would be the same process, except that the denominations would be larger, per explicit authorization of Congress:
Let’s say all goes well and all of a sudden we have Trillions in the account. We pay off the debt. Still Trillions in the account. Does anyone here think the House will spend one red cent to alleviate the pain and suffering of the citizens? ……….I thought not
At the very least, in that case, they could not use the excuse that “we can’t afford; we have no money.”
The whole point is to expose that excuse for the fraud that it is.
But who will shout FRAUD! from the rooftops? My bet would be complete silence. Excuses are easy to come by for sociopaths. Americans can’t handle the truth. Besides, American Idol is to start a new season soon.
Seriously, Wigwam has made a great case for this option. But does anyone here really think our genius President will use it?
Bluedot12, wigwam,
Assume for the sake of argument what I would not at all concede in reality, that you guys are right, and having the president order a 1 trillion dollar platinum coin minted and deposited in the Treasury is as constitutional as church on Sunday.
Are you confident that this SCOTUS, with the same majority that gave us Citizens United, an even worse majority than the one that gave us Bush v Gore, isn’t going to go with the argument that bmaz and I have been outlining? We’re not Rs, we want to see the rs defeated, but we aren’t even slightly convinced that this particuloar way to defeat them would either work or not have grave constitutuional consequences even if we could pull it off. Do you really think that your side of the argument is so airtight that the five Federalist Society types on the Court won’t be swayed at all by the sort of arguments I have made, much less invent arguments that aren’t really valid, just to mess with a D president? They wouldn’t dare rule against you, no matter how tempting this opportunity would be to cripple a D president? They wouldn’t dare because public opinion, spurred by a media that is red hot for minting the coin, is so for the coin, so hostile to any suggestion such as I am making that the thing is unconstitutional, that Murdoch will have no choice but to get his media emnpire behind your coin, and then Scalia will read the polls and flee in terror?
Were the president to try something that sounds as illegal as this coin, quite aside from it actually being illegal, and then have SCOTUS slap it down as illegal, it really would be game over for our side. The president would pretty much have to give the other side any concession they wanted. We would be saved, if at all, only by the fact that the other side doesn’t really want any concessions, they just want to humiliate our side. They’ld sure get plenty of that out of your coin adventure.
I’m not averse to a fight, even a fight we’ll probably lose, when our side is right. But our side wouldn’t be right if it went with your coin idea. It’s bad law, it’s bad public policy, and it still manages to be disastrously bad politically. If you’re going to sell out the Constitution, at least get something wonderfully panderific in exchange, not some political mess of pottage like this coin.
If there is one thing that is certain, and despite repeated attempts, you do NOT understand me correctly. Or, as you colloquially put it, “IIUC”.
Obama has four options:
* Capitulate.
* Stop paying the bills and hope that the GOP gets the blame.
* Continue paying the bills in direct violation of 31USC3101(b), which he agreed to and signed into law.
* Mint the coin using his explicit powers under 31USC5112(k) and continue to pay the bills without violating any federal laws.
Before SCOTUS could block him, they’d have to find 31USC5112(k) unconstitutional. And, by then, there would be a trillion dollars of credit in the Treasury’s account at the Fed and checks would have been issued against it. And, SCOTUS would be risking the dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency and risking getting the blame for a worldwide economic collapse. I’m confident that a majority of them would not want to take that risk.
What gtomkins said. Completely. I am not a huge Obama fan, but I am on the “professional left” side of the fence every inch of the way. In fact, I am among those progenitors.
But there are places where I draw the line. I did on Obama’s unconstitutional usurpation in the face of the War Powers doctrine, and I do here. In fact, if Obama were so hubristic as to “mint the platinum coin” or “use the 14th option”, you would not have to wait for the right wing howlers to discuss impeachment, I would start the discussion.
And if you do not believe me, think again.
I guess that’s because you’ve not cited the specific clauses of the Constitution that renders 31USC5112(k) unconstitutional. You did mention cite Article 1 Section 9 of which only Clause 7 has anything to do with control of the purse. But, it says that “No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law,” while 31USC has nothing to do with drawing money from the Treasury. Rather, it has to do with coining, which puts money into the Treasury, and which we’ve been doing for 220 years without concerns about constitutionality.
The only difference between 31USC5112(k) and the laws that have been used for the past 220 years is that 31USC5112(k) explicitly leaves “quantities” and “denominations” to the discretion of the Secretary. Presumably it is you position that that feature makes it unconstituional, but when I’ve asked you been vague.
In short, yes, I don’t understand you.
If you believe SCOTUS will willingly accept a suicide pact with the Rs, then who knows what follows. No doubt they are fools. It could happen but as I said before, history will note this. And the verdict will not be kind. It is impossible to imagine a soverign issuer of the currency in the world today that would take such truly stupid steps to protect the craven wishes of those who wish merely to destroy a democratic President for their own ends. There is no argument in the law as it has been laid out here by wigwam to support your claims.
In terms of accepted operational precedent (in terms of policy, not court cases), we have, if I understand correctly:
* 220 years of the Mint pumping out money the ultimately paid some of the government’s bills ($10B in 2011), but in each of those prior cases there was an explicit finite bound on the quantity and denominations of the coins generated, while 31USC5112(k) explicitly leave’s those to “the Secretary’s discretion.”
* In terms of congressional authorization to issue an unbounded amount of money, we have the Fed which can pump out however much credit (and presumably Federal Reserve Notes) as it pleases, without even an accounting to Congress until this past year, when we discovered that they’d pumped out seven-trillion dollars of credit to banks around the world (which to me is astounding).
So, was it constitutional for Congress to grant such power to the Secretary of Treasury, who by law takes precedent over the Federal Reserve whenever the two come into dispute? IMHO, the answer is “yes.” Congress retains its “power of the purse” through Article 1 Section 9 Clause 7, which requires explicit appropriation of all withdrawals from the Treasury.