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An article in the April 4, 2010 Parade magazine by former NY Times reporter Ralph Blumenthal, describes the last vestiges of the hunt for former Nazis in the US. The OSI’s (Office of Special Investigations) Eli Rosenbaum has been pursuing old Nazis since 1988 and became the agency head in 1994.
Rosenbaum was quoted as saying "Part of me believes we obtained more justice in our last years because pursuing these cases at such a late date sends a powerful message: If you’re guilty [of war crimes], you can reasonably expect to be pursued for the rest of your life."
The OSI has most recently been apprehending and prosecuting some Rwandan perpetrators of the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi tribe by members of the Hutu.
Once the nine remaining Nazi cases are completed, the OSI will be merged with a different human rights enforcement division in the Department of Justice.
Okay.
So, my next question to Mr. Rosenbaum is: Are you going to pursue the torturers in the Bush Administration with as much vigor as you have pursued the Nazis? And if not, how can you claim that the US has any credibility in the area of human rights?
On second thought, I guess the answer would probably be no. As to the reasons why – I suspect that the alleged terrorists choice of religion may have something (or everything) to do with it.
Side note: Every whacko fear-mongering idiot in this country is breathing a sigh of relief that the Times Square Bomber turns out to be one of those brown, Muslim guys (never mind he’s a US citizen) from one of those terr’rist countries over there where we were supposed to be fighting them over there so we wouldn’t have to fight them over here.
???
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Are you really making the case that the United States is the moral equivalent of Nazi Germany?
And my next question to Mr. Lokywoky: Are you going to write about Muslim on Muslim violence with as much vigor as you do about torturers in the United States? And if not, how can you claim that you have any credibility in the area of human rights?
I’d also remind you that unsung heroes like Eli Rosenbaum still hunt Nazis because of little quips like this:
“I will leap into my grave laughing because the feeling that I have five million human beings on my conscience is for me a source of extraordinary satisfaction.” — Adolf Eichmann
Are YOU waitomo, making the case that what the Bush admin did ISN’T the moral equivalent of what the Nazi’s did? Because if the only difference is in SCALE, well, then, you fall prey to Stalins observation:
“Kill one man and it’s murder. Kill a thousand men and it’s a statistic.”
Glad I don’t follow the same moral compass as you do.
CIA has more in common with the Nazis than just torture. They actually shielded and recruited thousands of ex-Nazis, giving them new identities after the war. They used the excuse that we needed their “expertise” in combating the commies. But in reality the US always held a strong contingent of powerful pro-Nazi forces.
Hitler could never have gained power in the first place without the backing of US industrialists and bankers. It’s the same crowd that promoted Nixon and the Bushes.
Actually, the Bushes are the same bankers etc that promoted the Nazis.
Fixed it for you.
I would certainly advocate the US investigating this. But if and only if the following conditions were satisfied:
1) Our own record of human rights violations and yes, war crimes was investigated first and the perpetrators punished.
2) If the Muslim on Muslim violence rises to the level agreed on by the UN as reaching genocide.
Other than that – we have plenty of crap to clean up in our own back yard. ‘Scuse me – FRONT yard – before we go around trying to proclaim ourselves as the champions of what’s correct and assuming we have the moral superiority to be trying to tell others in the world how to act.
Operation Paper Clip: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
You’re obviously correct, scrowder. The Bush administration WAS the moral equivalent of Nazi Germany. Just like the Nazis, they acted on their twisted morals by building hundreds of concentration camps where they gassed, shot, tortured, enslaved, and burned millions of human beings (not to mention the medical experiments). That’s exactly what they did. In fact, one of Obama’s first executive orders was for the CIA to dismantle the camps before the American public and the press noticed.
And if you’re really going to talk about scale, why don’t you address my point about Muslim on Muslim violence and the hundreds of thousands that have died as a result? Does that fit your Stalin quote?
No one in their right mind would defend what Bush and his merry bunch of torturers did in the name of the United States. I’ve seen Taxi to the Dark Side (and plenty of other documentaries) and I would love to see Dick and George hauled in front of a court to account for what they presided over. But the Nazi anaology is flung about far too freely, cheapening to the point of irrelevance the horrific crimes of Nazi Germany. So unless you can show me evidence of the camps (give a yell over to Beck, maybe he can help you) then you and everyone else should stop making the comparisons.
For all intents and purposes, it’s baseless propaganda and an ourageous false equivalency to liken Bush to Hitler. I wouldn’t even liken bin-Laden to the Nazis because I know there are far too many Muslims that are just as horrified as I am about what’s being done in their name. Would you liken bin-Laden to Hitler?
Just so we’re clear:
A false equivalence fallacy occurs when someone falsely equates an act by one party as being equally egregious to that of another without taking into account the underlying differences which may make the comparison patently invalid.
If you read my article – I did NOT equate Bush or any of those under his supposed orders to Nazis.
My point was that since the OSI and Rosenbaum are continuing to hunt, capture and prosecute these 90-year-old people, I wanted to know when the OSI/Rosenbaum were going to start on the present-day war criminals – particularly when they are in great positions of influence. You know, federal judges, professors of law at prestigious universities, still working for the government, still on the TV machine every other weekend (Cheney particularly).
There is the apologia about not prosecuting the “low-level” CIA operatives who actually carried out the torture because they were just doing their jobs. Well, the Abu Ghraib solders were too and they are in jail. Besides, at Nuremburg, that defense was completely blown out of the water – and has remained a part of world-wide jurisprudence. You cannot use it for a defense.
So….rather than getting all indignant about the word Nazi (considering that the Tea Party seems to have no problem calling Obama one) – you might well save your outrage for the torturers – including Cheney, Addington, Rumsfeld, John Yoo, Bybee, and everyone at the CIA who participated in any way. Especially the doctors and psychologists who were “experimenting” on people as they devised their EIT’s.
911 provided the opportunity for the “corporate fascists” to play the shell game. Hitler’s fabricated attack against the homeland to justify the invasion of Poland is similar to 911, in this regard. Cheney and Bush lied to justify the invasion of Iraq, to gain access to the sweet crude beneath Al Anbar Province. Saddam had not a thing to do with 911. However 911 provided an opportunity to FABRICATE STOVEPIPE and shut Saddam up and forever seal all the little dirty secrets for the oil whores. BP just recently signed a long term deal in Iraq.
All those Americans who made the sacrifice to kill Nazis in a brutal war know the importance of oil. I doubt they ever thought a future President and his cohorts in colonial crime would employ tactics utilized by the very Nazi fascist scum they gave their lives, to kill and rid the world of a rancid virus…….
Rot in Hell Cheney
There is a similarity in that both were creations of the US power elite. The occultist Skull and Bones crowd, which includes the Bushes, supported Hitler and have been in control of CIA since it was founded. The Bushes are also closely involved with the bin Laden family and Osama has been a CIA asset for decades.
Who enabled Bin Laden? Who sold fuel addictive to the Nazis Luftwaffe
enabling the Blitz?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil
http://www.gabyweber.com/dwnld/artikel/eichmann/ingles/secret_pact_standard_oil.pdf
~~~ModNote: Direct-to-PDF alert~~~
“The alliance of Standard Oil with the Nazis wasn’t well regarded by the US government, above all after the entered into the war after Pearl Harbor, on December7th, 1941. Officials remembered an old law, “Trading with the Enemy“, and opened a formal investigation against Standard Oil. The accusation was that the company hid patents from the US-Navy and supplied fuel to German submarines. John D. Rockefeller said that he wasn’t aware of that and Farish plead “no contest” to charges of criminal conspiracy with the Nazis. In March 1942, the Pentagon begged President Roosevelt to stop the investigation, to protect war production and oil supply. Roosevelt agreed. The Company paid a fine of 5000 dollars and promised to stop fuel supply for the enemies.”
History and truths……….
Wow. So what you’re saying is that Muslim on Muslim violence is a huge problem but that we, as Americans, shouldn’t do anything about it until Bush and Cheney are brought up on charges and the UN declares it genocide?
And because the UN said there’s no genocide in Darfur, we should all stop complaining about Bashir and the dead and dying in Sudan while we wait to put Bush in chains? And should I, as an American, end my moral and financial support of organizations trying to stop the slaughter there until Bush and Cheney are prosecuted? Well, I’ve got news for you: in the reality-based world that’ll be one hell of a wait. And real people will be dying while you live in your fantasy world.
I’m sure the people of Darfur will be heartened to hear such a progressive voice in America demanding action and speaking so eloquently on their behalf. Not to mention the countless families in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and everywhere else who’ve been destroyed by this violence.
All in all, those are some pretty weak arguments from someone who talks about pursuing war criminals with vigor. Because it seems that vigor doesn’t extend to far more egregious examples of war crimes. Why? Because they aren’t committed by the US government.
Yes, the United States government does vile things and we’ve killed plenty of innocent people. But it’s not a uniquely American trait. There are plenty of thugs to go around and if you don’t want to talk about them, that’s your prerogative. But I will.
And anytime I hear the United States compared to Nazi Germany you better believe I’ll speak up. I’m as progressive as they come, but the intellectualy dishonesty one finds in the progressive blogosphere is simply staggering at times. And pretty damn disheartening.
“And anytime I hear the United States compared to Nazi Germany you better believe I’ll speak up. I’m as progressive as they come, but the intellectualy dishonesty one finds in the progressive blogosphere is simply staggering at times. And pretty damn disheartening.”
I’ll speak up here… What is dishonest and simply staggering at times is the “Silent German mentality” of Americans. Brainwashed non thinking corpses. The actions of corrupt political leaders more concerned with protecting cash cows and corporate interests, and the inability to prosecute abject fucking criminals, is unbelievable. No we are not fucking Nazis here in America, enough grave stones to prove that fact here and in Europe. But what Bush Cheney and Nazis have in common is that to them the ends justifies the means, at the expense of law and life.
Rot in fucking hell Cheney!!!
The religious right the Conservatives and the Republicans have many of the same ideas that Hitler, Bin Laden, and the Russian Czars had. They are always right, militarty power should be used against anyone You disagree with, and keeping power over everybody at all cost is the most important thing over Country and People.
Hitler tried to annihilate the Jews where our religious Right would do the same to people who would have abortions, preform abortion and choose to be gay. They seem to fell the same way about Liberals, lefties, Democrats, socialists, communists, czarists, and populists. They would also use terrorism and have to achieve their goals, so are the same as Bin laden.
Absolutists who abdicate reason for bullshit are ignorant, played and usually fearful of unfounded lies while ignoring truth, resulting in servitude and senseless death.
Like the KKK blowing up a church and killing children at Sunday school? Sick bastards……..
I remember also!
Are you seriously going to make the case that you didn’t equate Bush with the Nazis? That they just happened to both appear in the same sentence you wrote about Rosenbaum’s pursuit of war criminals? And if Rosenbaum doesn’t pursue the Bush administration as vigorously as he pursued Nazi war criminals, America’s credibility in the area of human rights will be further undermined?
So, my next question to Mr. Rosenbaum is: Are you going to pursue the torturers in the Bush Administration with as much vigor as you have pursued the Nazis? And if not, how can you claim that the US has any credibility in the area of human rights?
If you’re going to hang your hat on technicalities, there’s no use in debating this. You clearly equated the Bush administration to Nazi Germany. It’s pretty much the main point of your post. You take a Nazi hunter to task by asking him when he’s going after Bush and the casual reader should not draw any comparisons between Bush and Nazis?
Ummm…. yeah.
Okay – yeah. Then simply answer the question. These Nazis are 90 years old. They have been in hiding for most of their sorry lives. They live quietly, under the radar, and one of their main defenses is that they have lived their lives productively and in some cases even positively in their communities, albeit under assumed identities that their spouses didn’t even know at times.
On the other hand, the Bush torturers are not hiding. Everyone knows their names and where they live. They show up on the TV machine more often than current and progressive office-holders. They are in prestigious positions where what they say and do does have a great influence on our justice system, our students, on on the population who listens to the bobblehead shows where they regularly appear.
So if I am demanding that we do some “torturer-hunting” in our own country – it is in the interest of making sure we have the absolute credibility to do this kind of work before we embark on trying to correct the wrongs everywhere else in the world.
You speak of Muslim on Muslim violence and list other instances where stuff is happening that is just sickening. I would add another one to the list – and it is equally explosive – Israeli on Palestinian violence. (Note: I did NOT say Jew on Palestinian violence those are different things).
I have never said we should stop trying to stop violence from happening but :
“Jesus said to take the log out of your own eye before you attempt to remove the speck from your brother’s.”
What about the torturers/human rights abusers in the Obama administration? Note that forced renditions continues under Obama. Glenn Greenwald and others note that his administration has carried out the same (or worse) policies as W’s. Obama has even promoted (Gen. McCrystal) lots of people with a history of human rights abuses.
Go get them too. Never said to just stop with Bushies.
Yea, bush is a Nazi using Nazi tactics.
Nazis scapegoated the Jews
bush scapegoated the Muslims
Same game different day.
Our world domination is pure where Nazi domination was bad.
The Nazis started by killing a few Jews, we’ve started killing a few Muslims.
The difference between an oven and a drone strike is what exactly?
What’s going on here is waitomo is an israeli apologist, and is engaging in minimization, accusation for the purposes of deflection.
From Jews sans frontieres: How to make the case for Israel and win
Of course we should pluck the log from our own eye first. That is the only way to have moral clarity or authority.
Interesting theories on a statute of limitations for war crimes, lokywoky:
These Nazis are 90 years old. They have been in hiding for most of their sorry lives. They live quietly, under the radar, and one of their main defenses is that they have lived their lives productively and in some cases even positively in their communities, albeit under assumed identities that their spouses didn’t even know at times.
Seriously, WTF?? Are you now making the case that if a war criminal can hide, live quietly and make it to old age that that can be a legitimate defense for the crimes they committed? And are you really making the case for a statute of limitations on war crimes? How exactly should this be constructed? Who decides when a war criminal has lived quietly and productively enough to be left alone? Who staffs the radar and decides when their post-war crime positives outweigh their overwhelming negatives? Taking your thoughts further: should the ICC be abolished and should we let countries police themselves?
And what exactly do the spouses of Nazi war criminals have to do with anything? Their wives love(d) these big lugs and maybe they didn’t know they were married to a mass murderer so hey, let bygones be bygones? It’s impossible to take anyone seriously on the subject of war crimes when they espouse such apologist drivel. And all I can say to that is… keep digging yourself a bigger hole, dude. It’s already way over your head.
As to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, you just couldn’t hold yourself back, could you? And what’s interesting about you raising that subject is that you so clearly contradict yourself. How? Maybe it was when you mentioned something about Jesus and a log. Or maybe it was when you wrote:
…we have plenty of crap to clean up in our own back yard. ‘Scuse me – FRONT yard – before we go around trying to proclaim ourselves as the champions of what’s correct and assuming we have the moral superiority to be trying to tell others in the world how to act.
Please explain why you feel free to mention that conflict in light of the statement above. And thanks for making it clear that you feel it’s not Jews who are war criminals, just Israelis.
Defensive much?
As for the Palestinians, their Muslim brothers and sisters have been screwing them for years. No one ever talks about the 400,000 Palestinians thrown out of Kuwait after the Gulf War in 1991 (not to mention the ones who were tortured and killed before they had the chance to be thrown out).
Black September? Weren’t they a metal band?
And nary a whisper of the desperate situation of the Palestinian community in Iraq and how they’ve been terrorized, murdered and pretty much ethnically cleansed from their communities by their Shia neighbors. Not hard to find this information if you actually care about Palestinians. But certain people only seem to care when it’s Israel being oppressive.
Google Layla Ali Taha and see what you find. It won’t be pretty, trust me.
But I guess we both shouldn’t talk of such things until the Bush administration and it’s cronies are brought to justice. And given the fact that Bush and Yoo and many others could very easily make it to old age, I guess, under your guidelines, we should not be as vigorous about prosecuting them and just let those bygones be bygones.
I say one of the first murderers we go after is the IDF bulldozer operator who ran over Rachel Corrie.
Then drag Sharon in front of the ICC for Sabra and Shatilla and the entire israeli cabinet at the time for Jenin.
As far as the Kuwaitis expelling Palestinians from Kuwait during the Gulf War, no one ever accused a bunch of plutocratic monarchs of being anything but discriminatory against poor people whatever their ethnicity or religion.
I think the Muslim on Muslim violence that waitorno continually tries diverting the argument by using is interesting because there has been Muslim on Muslim violence ever since the schism between Shi’a and Sunni over dogma.
There is absolutely nothing meaningful gained by fighting calls for prosecuting the war criminals among us by demanding that we go after war criminals in the middle east because, of course, there are a large number of the same people who defend the Bush Crime Family who will scream bloody murder at the suggestion that Israelis should be held to the same standards of customary international law as were the Nazis (the ones we chose to prosecute instead of protect) at Nuremberg.
You’re just a wee bit focused on Israel, aren’t you?
From where does that obsession stem?
Wow. I have never seen such a bunch of straw men lined up in a single rant.
Oh well. I beg you to explain where I said we should not prosecute the old Nazis. I’m just saying that after all the years and money of chasing these guys down, why aren’t we going after our own war criminals with as much vigor, dedication, and funds as we are spending on 9 old Nazis.
Whether or not we go after other groups, governments, or individuals for their war crimes and atrocities is beside the point.
MY point is that we need to be just as vigilant, dedicated, passionate, and willing to spend the time and funds to chase down, capture and prosecute our own war criminals. Especially since most of them are now in positions where they seek to and do influence opinions in this country. In my mind – I am beginning to think that is the more egregious problem – that not only are these guys not being held to the same accountability as the old Nazis – but our media (with our compliance) has elevated these monsters to positions of high authority. And yes, the protection and cover-up of the true nature of their crimes continues even today.
Sorry this discussion has gotten so far afield. My question still remains – when are we going to go after our own war criminals?
I missed your post. Sorry.
Just so we’re clear, I didn’t even mention Israel until Mr. Lokywoky brought it up.
And I’ve never been to the site you linked to, but thanks for pointing it out.
As for me being an Israeli apologist, that’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it.
But I’d rather be baselessly accused of being an apologist for Israel than being an actual apologist for Nazi war criminals like Lokywoky, the author of this piece.
These Nazis are 90 years old. They have been in hiding for most of their sorry lives. They live quietly, under the radar, and one of their main defenses is that they have lived their lives productively and in some cases even positively in their communities, albeit under assumed identities that their spouses didn’t even know at times.
This discussion goes so far afield because you keep comparing people to Nazis.
You just did it again. So prove that anyone in our government has actually committed war crimes on the scale of the Nazis and I’ll gladly stop writing about this. But you can’t, can you? It’s just baseless hyperbole.
And why don’t you write a few more sentences explaining how you can write what you did @5 and then go on to criticize Israel? I thought one of your basic principles was not to impose any sort of “moral superiority” on others in the world.
You were imposing your own moral superiority only you have such shallow arguments you can’t even follow them yourself.